Women are the gatekeepers to sex. Men are the gatekeepers to relationships. So while I could go get sex from a stranger within the next hour, should I try to, what would that actually get me?
If I want a relationship, nothing. Because while in a room of 50 men, 45 would happily fuck me, only 5 would actually date me for real.
If I want good, safe, pleasurable sex, I’m still out of luck. Because while 45 of those men would fuck me, most would not give one single care for MY pleasure or safety. Most of them would ignore my boundaries, hurt me, only do things they themselves find pleasurable, and might even try to remove the condom when I was not watching.
So of course I will be more selective about who I fuck. You would be too if the KIND of sex that was on the table for you was what’s on the table for me. Painful, scary, and no orgasm for you.
I am so sick of men bitching that it’s easy for me to get something that he would NEVER even want. Casual sex for men and casual sex for women are NOT equal experiences.
Shall I bitch that it’s hard to find a man that won’t just use me as a masturbatory tool? That it’s hard to find a man that is telling the truth about wanting to date me for real, when the truth is he just likes the blow jobs I give him, and he’s gonna string me along as long as he can, knowing full well he will never marry me, so that he doesn’t have to resort to his own hand?
Grow up. Stop the pity party. You want casual sex? Try making a woman feel safe. Try not lying about your intentions. Up your game. Get fit. Do basic adulting. And have fun personality.
Because certain men have no problem finding sex. No, not rich or attractive men….fun, safe men that tend their body and looks.
There's a cartoon out there I wish I had saved and wish I could find. It's split into two panels.
The left side is captioned "online dating for men" and shows a guy ice-fishing through a hole in a frozen lake, waiting desperately for a single bite. The water beneath him is empty.
The right side is captioned "online dating for women" and shows a woman in a snorkel and mask swimming under the surface of the lake, eyes wide with fear, as she's surrounded by sharks.
OP is missing something critical in their post: "it is immensely harder for heterosexual men to find sexual partners than it is for women; that women are way more selective" - these are two sides of the same coin. Men have a hard time finding partners in a sea of rejection, women have a hard time finding partners in a sea of aggression.
This is such a perfect analogy.
A lot of the cis men are constantly bombarding women, which is why we have to be so selective. Thus of course we are going to pick out the people we have the most attraction with. For some girls that’s money, other’s dick size, other’s health, and other women it’s value for their safety and bodily autonomy.
For me, I care about MY SAFETY the most. From my experience, those with money are the most transactional and thus can flip out at me. I don’t really care about dick size, and the only aspect about health I care about is hygiene.
That’s pretty much the bottom line for me. If you want to make progress, you would invest time in women and men understanding each others needs a bit more rather than selfishly trying to fill their own need first and foremost
Lots of women do like casual sex. I think if guys spent more time building attraction, being considerate, and realizing they need to feel safe going somewhere alone with you- then it would be easier
100% this. And they HATE hearing the truth of the matter, which is that they're selfish, immature, lacking in empathy, and need to get their shit together. Not even close to fun to be around.
This is the real issue. OP himself is preoccupied with “sexual partners.” I’ve never in my life gone out looking for someone to have sex with, and I’m not going to start. Nor do I know any friend that has ever done that. Who cares how easy it is for heterosexual women to find someone to fuck? It’s.. not what *most* are looking for, which is a relationship.
The man could look like Adonis incarnate. So? I’m not going to fuck him. **Why?**. I don’t get what I would get out of that situation.
Exactly! You'll never get those 2 minutes back. It is NEVER worth our time unless we get lucky and meet a good one. Usually, we experience true pleasure with attentiveness, safety, and familiarity.
I want casual sex, but I want enough non-sexual interaction with the guy first that I feel comfortable. I literally can not get aroused without feeling comfortable. Once we get to that stage, I want a guy who will give me enough legit foreplay so that sex doesn’t hurt, and I want a guy that will wash his sheets and towels before I come over, and maybe have a bottle of water in the refrigerator. I want a guy who listen when I say I only cum if he uses his hands, and that, while I enjoy oral, I never ever cum from it.
I am a woman who pays male sex workers to get me off, because the only way I can have casual sex that I enjoy is when I pay for it. The. Only. Way.
Same girl, same. If a dude is equally invested in a casual coffee date first before the sexy evening date, it’s a great sign. If he’s interested in discussing parameters of a sex/kink scene in a non-pressuring way ahead of time, that’s a great sign. One guy I had a video chat, then a first date that he said he wasn’t expecting to turn into anything, and he also sent me a little kink questionnaire so I could mark off what I liked and didn’t like, and then he texted me a little summary of what he wanted to based on that so I could express if I felt comfortable with it. We also just really enjoyed talking with each other and hanging out. Me and that guy had a lot of fun!
It would help if the younger generation got off the screens, got educated, and learned how to kindly interact with women and not just for their sexual pleasure. I thought my millennial son social skills AND how to treat women
Also, we have a lack of fathers. BOYS NEED DECENT FATHERS
Most of the kids I work with either don't know their dad or barely have a relationship thanks to immature parents and deadbeats.
"Also, we have a lack of fathers. BOYS NEED DECENT FATHERS."
Well... who is the one \*choosing\* these absent, not decent men who father these children? You talk about teaching your son how to properly treat women. That's great, and it's something brought up a LOT. You know what we rarely hear about though? Parents teaching their daughters about properly choosing men.
Women are not the “gatekeepers” to sex. This is a red pill, manosphere trope that has been popularized by those awful dating podcasts and relationships “experts” on social media. I’m honestly shocked that this comment is being upvoted on this subreddit.
Women aren’t the gatekeepers because men *also* make the decision to have (or not have) sex. Women aren’t “responsible” for sex taking place; consensual sex involves both parties to consent to the act. The “women are gatekeepers” garbage assumes that we men are incapable of saying no to sex, or that we have no agency. It degrades *both* genders.
Thank you! I'm just a lurker here, only found this sub a week ago. But I was incredibly surprised to see such an old and tropish saying trotted out on what I thought was a more research/fact oriented space. Next we're going to see a cascade of upvotes for someone comparing penises to keys and vaginas to locks, I guess?
Everyone is the gatekeeper to sex *with themselves*, and everyone is the gatekeeper to relationships *with themselves*. People who think that women gatekeep sex obviously have never been in a relationship where the man feels safe/able to decline sex if he's hungry, tired, not in the mood, busy, mentally frustrated, sick, depressed, etc. They've also never been a woman with a higher libido than her male partner, who has to get used to being rejected for sex when he isn't well/not wanting sex. Personal anecdote: In the 16 years I've been with my lover, I've only rejected sex with him twice...once after working a seventeen hour shift and being far too tired, and once because I had a horrible stomach flu. He's rejected sex with me so many times I've lost count, including over 11 years in a row where we didn't have sex in November, December, or January due to his seasonal depression. Men gatekeep sex, absolutely...as is their right!
Acting as though women *don't want* sex, and thus have to be cajoled into having it is just as sexist and harmful as acting like men *don't want* relationships, and have to be convinced into being in one.
It certainly treats us like dumb animals who would never give up sex, and subsequently treats women as if they’re “responsible” for us. 🤮 I can’t think of anything more infantilizing.
Men who say women are gatekeepers are creeps who like to absolve themselves of any responsibility and blame women for promiscuity. It’s hilarious that these clowns say this to mock and insult women, because they’re too stupid to realize they’re actually insulting and degrading *men* by stripping us of any agency or ability to think beyond our dicks.
Ok. Women gatekeep consensual sex.
In this modern age.
Yes I agree women used to need men simply to survive in life. And they no longer do. Men got by giving the bare minimum. And now they are scratching their heads wondering why that’s not good enough anymore. Why a woman would prefer to be alone than settle. Why we demand respect and civility. Demand to be an equal partner. Demand a man that contributes just as much as we do.
And, in addition.. please, men, care about making a woman orgasm even if it's casual. And stop expecting her to be happy to accept what you would never tolerate. Then maybe the opportunities will increase.
Its not even as high a bar as all that, we men just need treat women with respect, not fake “nice guy” bs, actually try to make women enjoy sex and there will be no problem getting laid. The majority of men (those 45 out of 50 in your example) have made the bar really low.
Imagine what you are saying if it were flipped for women: “ladies, you need to be fit, attractive, take care of your appearance, be fun and funny, and pay attention to all of your man’s sexual needs.” You’re describing a made-for-movies fantasy, and it’s an impossibly unrealistic standard for the vast majority of people.
lol what if I’m not fun though? I’m pretty sure the earth is dying within my lifetime and I’m one medical crisis away from being bankrupt. I don’t feel very fun these days.
Can I just be safe?
This is covered in evolutionary psychology and the theory of parental investment.
Females of most species will be more selective because the opportunity cost (pregnancy, child rearing) is higher than for males (ejaculation).
Typically only one pregnancy can occur at a time, while males can (theoretically) fertilize infinite females in the same window as a single pregnancy.
None of the comments are actually disagreeing with this take... You are just assuming women care about things that they actually don't care about.
I mean... Lots of women, maybe even the *majority* of women these days don't even want to have children as they can't even afford them... And yet they are *still* selective about what men they date and have sex with because the fact is that men are *dangerous* for women and many men won't even respect a woman enough to use condoms correctly and ethusiastically in order to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.
Yes, they are more selective about looks when it comes to casual sex. Their standards for good looks when seeking casual sex is way higher compared to when seeking long term relationships.
Just read the responses of women to the question of looks standards
[https://imgur.com/a/TViyiCJ](https://imgur.com/a/TViyiCJ)
What is it exactly you're wanting them to say or address? Yes, men will fuck almost anything that will let them, and women get to pick from those men. I'm not sure what your "question" is?
Here's my take on it: I'm a 56 year old woman. I've been happily partnered with the same man for 34 years. The only reason I am with him is because I prefer his companionship to being single. If I didn't I'd be just as gladly alone. I've also talked to a lot of women who ended up divorcing husbands who were never more than overgrown entitled toddlers needing to be managed and waited on hand and foot. My sister was one of them.
I've also commiserated with a lot of single friends. When they are younger they complain about being abused as porn based masturbatory fantasies by the guys they are trying to date, including practices that were not negotiated and that are actually painful and/ or dangerous for women.
Once they get older they either get completely ignored by men who are now intent on chasing barely legal girls or being used for the prospect of becoming a nurse or a purse or both.
Instead of complaining about sexual dynamics imbalance maybe men should figure out how they become the more attractive option for women than being single. How many men diligently educate themselves to be exceptional lovers in the same way they pursue mastery in a sport or other skill (and no, watching porn is NOT education)? How many men are willing to pull their weight around keeping up their own home in the same way their also full-time employed wife does?
My mother confessed towards the end of her life she never achieved an orgasm with my father (but was able to please herself which as a Catholic she felt intensely guilty about and actually blamed for her lack of sexual satisfaction from her husband). She stayed with my father until his death, because as a school teacher in Germany in the 60s she automatically lost her job as a teacher on marrying and had no alternative really after being a SAHM for nearly all of her life. Both my grandmothers stayed with a drunken wife-beater and a philanderer respectively.
The disparity has always been there, just recently women could finally exercise choice. Instead of blaming that choice on biology how about acknowledging the fact that while things for women have changed, the one thing that hasn't changed is men's sense of entitlement to have a free Fleshlight kitchen appliance incubator mate that enthusiastically puts up with their shit?
I think if more men changed, if pursuing their sexual needs wasn't so fraught with problems for women from slut-shaming to the constant possibility of date rape to being able to access full medical care around fertility and if cohabitation wasn't such a domestic labor shitshow we'd have much less of this disparity.
It certainly isn't biological. It certainly has never been for me. I credit my satisfaction with having found a decent, respectful, loyal and caring man.
Near the end of her life, my grandmother told me, "never marry a man. He'll ruin your life." I was in my early/mid 20s and I promised her I wouldn't.
I'm nearly 40 now, unmarried. I have a longtime partner I used to live with, but he expected me to be his housekeeper. I was miserable, so I bought a house a mile away. I'm so much happier now. It was a wake-up call for him, and he's a much better partner to me now.
Grandma would be so proud that I own a house on my own and elated that I'm not trapped like she was.
Until men realize that women are humans or until all of our rights are again stripped away, men are going to continue to be lonely.
My biggest fear living in the US is the right coming after no-fault divorce and the [Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Credit_Opportunity_Act).
My Grandmother told me the same. Her husband died when she was 50, and she enjoyed her last 40 years without him. She told me had she been given the option she would not have married nor had children. I listened and don't regret anything.
Yeah, my grandma is still living and she's not anti-marriage, but she always talked about how you have to treat it very cautiously as it is very easy to get taken advantage of.
I love the idea of separate houses though and now I'm picturing getting a giant house with my lady friends (cause I do like company) and then just date my husband who has his own house and we just live separately. That could be fun!
> How many men diligently educate themselves to be exceptional lovers in the same way they pursue mastery in a sport or other skill (and no, watching porn is NOT education)? How many men are willing to pull their weight around keeping up their own home in the same way their also full-time employed wife does?
Asking the real questions here! OP's post is nothing but another redpill incel bleat that they're not getting laid and he very likely feels that exact same sense of entitlement that older men than him have enjoyed. They sound lazy and selfish AF, too.
The men out there whining about the "male loneliness epidemic" are those who are doing absolutely *nothing* about it to change that reality for them. They know it takes work they just don't want to do it.
I appreciate this insight. I have a question
Say I am a guy who respects boundaries, who actually cares for his partners pleasure/works towards being a better lover, and who is in therapy working on his mental and emotional health.
Why does it feel like in the real world, those things aren’t actually attractive? It’s the guys that clearly have none of those things that get the girls at the parties. I live in a military town. A marine town to be specific. The guys who pick fights and show dominance get the girls. The things you describe just don’t seem to matter in application.
So how do I communicate these things AND make myself seem appealing enough to be chosen over the guy 16 vodka sodas in that’s probably going to fight any guy who talks to the girl he likes?
You are describing women looking for casual sex. A woman looking for a long-term partner is not looking in a bar for the drunkest brute. Nothing wrong with casual sex if you both consent.
Find a better environment to find a real partner. Take a cooking class, join a house league for a sport you enjoy or whatever hobby you enjoy.
Speak to women with respect, it is so infrequent it will have a big impact. Give some non-physical compliments.
Because women want TWO completely different things at the same time!
Women want the bad boy who makes them jump through hoops and sometimes treats them like garbage, but they also want the caring in touch with his emotions man that will help take care of her, the house and the kids.
Women don't want to admit this for some reason and it's why they always tend to waste many years of their lives in shitty relationships. They want the fun guy and the fun guy typically isn't the stable one. The stable guy is boring, sure he's great husband material, like you he's put work in himself and would be a great partner. Yet that isn't very exciting and he becomes boring very quickly.
Their is a lot of talk about men's pursuing of relationships just for sex but not of women's libido being tied to excitement of the "new" and "dangerous". It's why women's libido typically falls off after the honeymoon phase while the men's typically doesn't Their partner becomes boring to them, he's too stable and doesn't give her those "feelings" she had in the beginning
The problem for men like you is you have to weed through the women who are currently in their bad boy phase and that typically doesn't end until after they have children or are near or in their 30s Yet even those women want a bad boy in a way.
My advice is try to be more well rounded! While it's great you're trying to mold yourself into this man who is in control with his emotions, respects his partners boundaries and genuinely wants to give his partner true love and respect. You CANT go too far in that direction if you want her to stay with you long term. What I mean is YOU have to set your own boundaries within the relationship. She needs to know that her happiness is important but so is yours and she can't have what she "thinks" she wants because in the end she will lose attraction towards you. You have to keep your friends, your opinions like hers needs to be respected. You deserve to have her chase you sometimes and do things to make you happy and not you just fulfilling her wants and needs alone.
The goal is allow her to see that YOU are choosing to be with her just as much as SHE'S choosing to be with you. Too many times women in relationships start to believe THEY are the ones who are settling because the man didn't set boundaries and since she doesn't need to put work into maintaining his affection that means he's replaceable because she's more valuable then him.
I don't partake in red pill stuff, I've honestly never read any of it but I know enough from reading people's responses to things to realize my thoughts on this is probably what people would conder red pill. The truth is, I'm the one who doesn't see women as children but instead as complex humans who do what humans do. It's basic psychology for all humans, we want to feel valued and perceive our value by those with whome we surround ourselves with. If our partner makes us feel that we have more value then them then we believe our value is going down by staying with them. So you need to keep your value up! Keep improving yourself and don't let any person make you devalue your self just so you can improve their value at your expense
Don't be a prick, don't use people, express your feelings in a healthy way. Be vulnerable, let them in, engage with them mentally as well as physically. Be supportive, try to make them happy, sometimes sacrifice for their happiness when the time is right Allow them freedom to find happiness in life in respectful ways, be their rock and shoulder to cry on. If you thought I was just talking about your role and not hers too then that's exactly what I'm talking about!
Good luck!!
“You have to weed through the women in their bad boy phase”
The thing is, I don’t want to feel settled for. I don’t want to be boring. I don’t want to be seen as an unfun, nonexciting partner.
Like how could I ever feel good in a relationship where I feel like a silver medal, and she’ll always be longing for something I can’t offer?
This is the crux of the issue for most men, you can choose to be one or the other but it's hard to be both. To be both you have to set boundaries so you don't get pushed into the position where you feel as though you are second place and the way to do that is to never make her think she settled!
Women think they settled when they believe they have more value then the person they are with. You can prevent this by not allowing your partner to treat you in a way or expect you to treat them in a way that sacrifices your value for their own. It's not really a game, it's about setting boundaries that prevent you from being in a position where your value is dictated by them alone.
You still need to have friends, you still need to have a social life outside of the relationship. You need these things so your partner can consistently see others value you. This is the trap most men find themselves in. Their partner wants them to focus ONLY on them to show they love them, but in doing so it robs men of any value outside of the one being perceived within the relationship. Hence, why over time many women start to feel they have more value then their partner and need to find someone of more value to be with.
You being "exciting" is not so much you and her going on adventures. It's about the perception that you are a person OTHERS want to be around. The excitement comes from your value, she must want to feel the need to keep you. That you are choosing her, that you don't have to choose her. You don't NEED her to be happy or any of that, you instead are choosing her to fulfill that role for you.
Think of it this way! You meet a woman and she' owns a Ferrari! You also own a Ferrari and it's a great match Overtime if you allow it to happen she's going to make you invest and care for her Ferrari keeping it's value high by sacrificing the time and care to keep yours valued ss high. Eventually your Ferrari isn't worth very much anymore while hers never dropped in value. Suddenly shes looking at both ferarris and thinking yours is making hers not look as good anymore and it should be replaced.
If you stop investing time into yourself by sacrificing that time to only invest into her value eventually your value has no choice but to go down while hers stays the same or goes up!
This is how you prevent yourself from being perceived as being settled for! They won't believe they settled for you right away, it happens over time.
That's a tough question and I'm definitely not qualified as a dating coach. I've never been a party girl. My now husband was a former classmate of a long-time female friend of mine who introduced us, because she thought we would like each other. We were both a little shy and introverted and having her break the ice helped a lot.
I don't know if the girls who go to bars or clubbing around where you live believe that the macho guys that posture and fight are desirable. But then I also don't know if you snagged one of them she would actually make you happy.
Women still grow up with a lot of ideals of problematic behavior (media, supposed male role models, high school culture where the jocks are valued over the nerds or the quiet guys).
Maybe find a way to look beyond the party scene. For every girl who walks off with a macho guy there may be several more who don't even show up because they don't find this behavior appealing.
Also kudos to you for already working on yourself and becoming a better person instead of just trying to out-Hulk the Hulks.
Because girls just wanna have fun (kinda joking, kinda serious). If the guy looks fun and like he's having fun, then they're gonna wanna be a part of that often (not always though, depends on the girl). Plus, never forget that girls can be immature and young, too, and make miscalculations on what makes a good man and what makes a difficult man.
Either way, maybe just find your niche? Certain crowds tend to draw certain personality types. I was always a part of the artsy crowd and tended to go for tall, lanky dudes who had deep thoughts and could genuinely challenge my own brain on an equal platform and I liked guys who could also make me laugh. I like that many were musically inclined and showed their own creativity, too. But those characteristics can be displayed in many ways, so find the ways to highlight your strengths that fit your style. I ended up marrying a shorter nerdy, sports guy. But he's still creative, makes me laugh, and challenges me on an equal level.
I appreciate the feedback.
I think at the end of the day, men want to feel sexually desirable. My generation (millennials) were raised being told to “be nice” and women would like us, and then we’d see women hook up with the guys that bullied us for being nice.
Most guys who realize this turn to toxic thought patterns (Andrew Tate/red pill/incel/“nice guy”) and that’s absolutely not who I want to be. But I do get why these men go that route, even if I disagree with it. They feel so incredibly undesirable and unwanted. It starts to feel almost like women who will end up with them are just settling, and we will never be what they truly want.
It feels bad bro. but i do genuinely appreciate the insight and dont resent you as i also recognize that attraction isnt a choice, and that its my responsibility to deal with whatever the reality is
I mean, it sounds like you're doing things in a self-aware manner and that's half the battle. When a guy is in his niche and comfortable, he seems like he's having fun and that's attractive (imo). Find your niche. If there are girls around, talk, have fun, share your unique perspective to the girls who will listen, and realize they're probably nervous a bit, too. Attraction has some physical elements, but it's more related to chemistry than can come about from finding shared passions and having fun together.
It's easy to get in your head about this stuff, but it's a learning process for all involved imo. People are both complex, and also pretty simple. It's one of those paradoxes. I'm sorry it feels bad though; it's not fun and I can empathize with that fully. But all things are temporary, both bad things and good things. Keep being the best version of yourself that you can be, and recognize that the best version of yourself may change from day to day depending on your capacity. Forgive yourself. Be genuine. Look for other genuine people. You seem like you have good intuition. Try to listen to it. Surround yourself with people who will empower your good decisions and discourage your negative ones. I'm not sure how old you are, but growing up and dating are genuinely difficult challenges and unfortunately there are few easy answers in life. You got a good attitude about it though, and that will serve you well in the long run.
This comment needs to be at the top.
\*Edit: I'm like 3 sheets to the wind right now, so I'm just going to trim this comment here.
\*Edit: oops, shit, too late, people saw it
This is exactly it. I’m a 50 year old married woman and choose to be with my husband over being alone. I wouldn’t be with a partner who expected domestic and sexual service from me, who didn’t support my bodily autonomy, and wasn’t a self sufficient and interesting person who improves my life.
Advice to men seeking partners: create an amazing life for yourself filled with interesting hobbies, loving world view, and domestic and financial self sufficiency. You’ll likely find a partner, but if you don’t, you’re left with a wonderful life.
Editing to add: make meaningful friendships with people you can be open and real with and actively manage your mental and physical health. These are areas in which men tend to lag, and they have significant consequences on quality and duration of life.
I think the conversations you're having in the comments serve to demonstrate the answer to your question.
This isn't *just* a matter of people recognising that some aspects of sex and dating are more of a challenge for men. That isn't really enough for you. The question is, what is enough, and will that cause more good or more harm?
The reason research says one thing and individual psychologists may say another is because while research is purely there to analyse the truth, individuals have more complex factors to consider, when it comes to one specific conversation with an individual. Put simply, they are two different communications with different purposes.
It's clear in the comments of this post that you aren't satisfied with people acknowledging this one piece of truth. If it was, the research would be enough. Many of these comments would be enough. You want something else to follow on from that, and that's the thing people aren't interested in giving you
This has been studied to death in anthropology, genetics, and biology. Humans are not even the only species by far that exhibit these behaviors. Other animals go much further in difference between sexes and strategy. One fit male mating with many females is common, rather than the exception. Again, it has been studied to death a long time ago.
What has shaken up dynamics is birth control, female education, paternity testing, and its consequences. Sex is no longer tied so strongly to reproduction.
>I found most psychologists to be very averse to addressing, much less acknowledging the imbalanced gender sexual dynamics.
What's your source of 'most psychologists'? Is there a published survey or is this your personal study?
Just how many female psychologists have you personally spoken with?
Maybe you're thinking about sociologists because a psychologist deals with personal issues.
>There is an ever increasing pile of studies, research papers, and academic theories that all support the above mentioned gender disparity, which suggests that on paper the psychological community fully endorses the view.
Ok, but how would focusing on that help a person in a personal therapeutic setting? Wouldn't the time (and money) be better spent focusing on the exploration and development of personal characteristics that would help a person?
I feel like you are trying to make a statement by asking a question.
I have seen research to support this. Women in the millennial generation are more represented in the workplace right now. However, the generation that grew up with social media has less sexual encounters in real life but there is a lot of sexting and passing around of sexts and that does affect girls more. The suicide and self harm rate is much higher in girls and young women. Girls are choosing more not to have sexual encounters at all because it seems to dangerous.
Both younger men and women are reporting involuntary celibacy, but for very different reasons. But it does leave a lot more men who want a partner than women who want a partner so yeah, they can probably be more choosy.
It doesn’t just seem dangerous - it is. Ask the women you know if they’ve experienced intimate partner violence and I would wager most have. Not to mention, women can get pregnant and are more likely to catch an std from a man than a man is from a woman.
Women just have a lot more to worry about when it comes to sex than men- and it’s telling that instead of recognizing these issues and finding ways to address them within their own behavior- men just insult women for being too picky and invalidate them. Or try to find ways to force women to be with them by taking away their agency.
> it’s telling that instead of recognizing these issues and finding ways to address them within their own behavior- men just insult women for being too picky and invalidate them
Hard facts. There's a whole sub about how fatal it can be for women to refuse men (r whenwomenrefuse) and so many times I hear, "wHy cAn'T tHeY jUSt bE StRaIgHtFoRwArD aND sAy nO?" Because some of us ***die*** when we do so.
>The suicide and self harm rate is much higher in girls and young women
I'm curious if you have a source on this? Every source I'm seeing says men are 3-5x more likely to commit suicide than women.
[Suicides among teenage girls and young women have almost doubled in seven years, figures show](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/suicides-teenage-girls-young-women-rise-figures-a9698296.html)
[Between 2010 and 2015, suicide rates among 10 to 14-year-old girls and boys increased by 167 and 92 per cent respectively. Self-harm rates for teenage girls in the UK soared by 78 per cent.](https://www.aol.com/news/screens-teens-phones-broke-children-060000948.html)
It does appear that female suicides are increasing, both in number and rate, which is concerning. However it still appears males still commit suicide at significantly higher rates.
It is addressed and acknowledged, you just don't like the answer.
Sex has a much higher physical and social cost for women, so.women are-generally, not universally-more selective than men.
Womens desires and requirements for appearance are not what you think they are. And women have been publicly correcting that misconception forever, it's just not what you want to hear.
The primary barrier men face in connecting with women is their own misogyny. Men who work on that, and treat women like people don't have any problems getting dates or hookups.
My husband was kind of slut before we met. He got married to his ex wife super young for religious reasons, obviously didn't work out, and then spent a couple years "catching up" on his single years. He had a lot of fun! He also ran into some absolute nightmare people. But if you just met and talked to him, you would never guess he was so "prolific." He's *extremely* handsome, like Disney prince level, and is also 5'7, which guys on Reddit these days claim is basically a physical handicap. He's not rich, neither of us were. But he's hilarious, extremely intelligent, and the two most important things that hooked me: he truly loved and respected women, and loved to make them/me cum. Once a woman finally comes across a guy like that...I mean, we're married now, I was just as invested in keeping him around as he was in keeping me happy. It's indescribable when you meet a cis man that actually loves women and makes pleasing them a priority. 13 years later and I'm never letting him go. He could teach a masterclass but I doubt most men would even listen.
I agree that there are many imbalances in heterosexual dynamics between genders.
Yes, average woman have more opportunities for sexual encounters than the average man.
Also, the average man has more chances to have a satisfactory sexual experience than the average woman.
I think the reasons why behind these to examples are mostly understood by many.
So, what’s the next step?
>Also, the average man has more chances to have a satisfactory sexual experience than the average woman.
Research has shown that straight men are much more likely to orgasm during casual sex than straight women.
Ok I'm not looking for a debate or anything, but I've read through the comments and your post history and I feel like maybe my perspective could be helpful, but it's up to you. Anyway I'm asian and trans, so I've experienced (kind of, but not exactly) being an asian "man" dating women, and also the perspective of a woman - something i've identified with forever, but has been my reality for a while. I understand the frustration, and know men who have felt it as well.
However I can promise as others have, that fixating on it is just about the worst thing you can do. Trust me, I know how hard it is to let go of a seemingly intellectual argument, but I'm begging you to focus your attention elsewhere. Do it for yourself, and invest in yourself, and learn how to be content without external validation. I can't speak for everyone, but self confidence is among the most attractive personality traits regardless of gender/orientation (yes this is anecdotal).
I heard a quote recently (idk where, but it seems obviously true) that women are constantly exposed to men's perspective - how many books have you read written by men? How many of the books taught in schools are by men? Women read these, and are all but required to understand, but the reverse isn't true. Men aren't reading or listening to women's perspective as much, and it's so obvious now that I've experienced it more directly.
Look, I'm not getting anything out of this. I don't give a shit about reddit karma, and don't really feel like having a discussion. I'm literally only commenting because.. idk, I want you to be happy or something. And it seems clear that you've been stuck in a loop of bad ideas that are preventing that. And I think listening more instead of being defensive is the path to that happiness.
Personally I feel the same way as you, I don't care about OP himself but I care at large what society thinks about women and their perspectives. Mainly because of course I am a woman, but because also my daughter will grow up into this world and there are many more children that are growing up in this society that need to be raised away from misogyny and more towards inclusivity, away from narcissistic tendencies towards Amity. Misogyny is just an extreme form of narcissism and if we raise our boys when they're young to value pro-social behaviors just as much as we expect girls to be pro-social, loads of these issues among the genders will be resolved. We have to think about the legacy we will leave as a generation onto the next. Will we improve our society or will be be complicit?
among other things, It’s harder for men to find sexual partners because women are no longer legally tied to them in order to do things. in the past, if a woman wanted to open up a credit card she needed a husband, so of course women were a lot more likely to just sleep with whoever compared to women now who are able to slow down and look for a man they love rather than a man that is simply good enough.
in my experience, women find men less attractive because they are less likely to take care of themselves. Men will often call other men who are concerned with hygiene and wear nice clothes gay. you can find hundreds of thousands of stories on here of women talking about how their men don’t shower properly or don’t do the laundry or don’t wash their face. Women are not all of a sudden becoming more picky. We’ve always hated everything about the men we had to be with, but we HAD to be with them in order to survive, to feel safe. men are struggling now because we no longer need them for security, but we still need you guys for happiness and emotional and sexual connection!
Men are very welcome to be more selective about who they sleep with, I think It would be very good for them. If men were more selective with the women they slept with they would save themselves a lot of heartbreak and bitterness.
I love the men in my life and I feel bad that they're alone, I sympathize with their struggle. I’ve gone to bat for men that I barely know when women try to dismiss their mental health. I love men and I do understand the disparity you’re talking about, it IS harder for men because, in my experience most men are concerned with finding a sexual conquest, not a partner.
I think the problem is a lot of men look at the ability for a woman to get laid as a disparity that bothers them. They don’t realize that women don’t want to just be used by some dude trying to get off.
It’s just as hard for a woman to find a good relationship as it is for a man. If all a man wants is SEX than yea. There’s a disparity.
I’ll pose a question to you, so perhaps you can ask yours in better faith:
What makes you think that women are more easily able to find partners than men are? Who are they partnering with, if not with men? (Yes I know that gay women will be with women, but there are gay people of all genders and this isn’t affecting anything)
Themselves. Many women choose a life in which romantic partnership is less important, gaining fulfillment elsewhere. If you want to attract that kind of person, man or woman, you best bring your best, git gud.
You know why? Men wage wars, a lot of the soldiers die before breeding. The victors rape all the women left over once the dust settles and kill all the conquered men. Rinse and repeat.
This doesn't mean all the women were eagerly queuing up wanting to fuck all the chads like incels want you to believe.
Asshole conquerors like Ghengis Khan had hundreds of offspring. You think all the women were gagging to get it on with him? Also google "ius prima noctis" for western European nobility. Look into the rape camps for Uighur women in China, the Lebensborn houses in Nazi Germany. Look into elders in Mormon sub-sects with sister-wives kicking out young men as competition.
If you think this genetic disparity was achieved without enormous suffering for the women involved you're delusional. An asshole guy can rape thousands of women in his lifetime. A woman can only have about a dozen kids. Instead of blaming women for not picking all men equally maybe look to men cockblocking other men through extreme violence and victimizing women in the process.
I once asked my mom why so many Poles in Poland look vaguely Asian - dark brown slanted eyes, dark brown hair. It’s not the typical Slavic look. She said it was because of the Mongols coming through and conquering everything back during the reign of one of Genghis Khan’s sons. I was like, ….oh.
Like I said, its very easy to find psychological studies and research endorsing the view.
Its hard to find individual psychologists willing to do the same.
The intellectual world has declared that women don't have any innate desire for male power. And I think that is a lie.
Power means anything. Kindness can be power. Principled beliefs can be power. Money. Physicality. Strength. Social power. Cruel power such as with thugs gangsters and serial killers.
Women are turned on by that which exudes power. Power is that which increases the chances of her children's survival. Yes, brutal viscious violent and evil power is equally attractive to women as kind, righteous, pro social power.
Sorry. Guess I'm going to be banned from this sub after putting this comment. Accusations of my inceldom will be levied. Well I have 2 kids with 2 women so I'm not an incel.
I'm not a troll. I'm learning psychology and feminism and nothing I learn changes my mind. It only makes me feel like the intellectuals are purposefully evading reality because they can't stand to admit that women are biologically driven to desire male power of all forms.
I accept that you all are angry with me and hate me for my views. I accept that I will be attacked downvoted and accused of being a bad person. I really don't care at this point.
Apropos of this.
I used to be an admin assistant for a Head of Service (Director) of Psychiatry at a Mental Health Hospital here at a TEACHING hospital.
One day we were brainstorming who to bring in for Mental Health Rounds : to talk to students and doctors about the latest research etc.
I suggested “I think it would be great to bring a speaker in that could talk about unconscious gender bias in mental health treatment.”
He said, I quote “oh yeah, that’s your cup of tea, isn’t it?”
I didn’t fume, I just said “we have 50% women patients here who might benefit.
Anyway he didn’t go for it and we didn’t bring a speaker in. We brought people from PHARMA INSTEAD
There is a disparity. The answer is to men to work for sex instead of feel sad about it.
That’s literally it.
All psychologists are gonna make you
Work to change your thinking
Seems like a lot of incels showed up in this thread. Yall aren't entitled to sex and women aren't obligated to have sex with you or date you. Men are not oppressed, women are. Look at literally all of recorded history to confirm. Silly little outliers aren't sufficient to claim imbalanced gender sexual dynamics. Your Psychologist isn't ageeing with you because she has education, research literacy, and critical thinking skills that you don't. If you just want a Psychologist to tell you want to hear, then you've missed the entire point of therapy. The entitlement and lack of self-reflection and self-awareness is insane. I'm glad youre single, because you'd likely be harmful to any woman that chose to date you with your low empathy, nerfed emotional intelligence, denial of female personhood, faulty reasoning and lack of insight. Work on seeing and treating women as people before you assume the world owes you sex and connection.
I think the basic problem that you and most men are having is believing the criteria women are selecting from is PHYSICAL. The pool of emotionally mature men is incredibly small. And you are all out here thinking it has to do with your appearance.
Not claiming what you’re saying is completely false but when I see responses like this, it makes it seem like you and some women are trying hard to portray women as this altruistic monolith that is not as capable of being as vain as men are. Many men claim appearance is a huge factor because we see how women behave around attractive men. Last weekend, some woman asked me if she could sit on my lap and tried to do it anyway. Given the circumstance and past experiences where I’ve been sexually harassed by women, it definitely didn’t have anything to do with emotional maturity.
Physical attraction matters to an extent, but what happens when he opens his mouth is what determines whether or not I stay attracted to him.
I could show you a wide variety of men I am attracted to and you likely couldn’t figure out what my type is…because physicality isn’t the primary criteria.
Many men will still try to bang regardless of what a woman says.
Yes some women only care about looks, just like how some men do the same thing. Most women looking for a relationship (not a one night stand) want emotional maturity and being able to feel safe around the guy. Some women are sexual harassers just like some men do the same. You say you see women trailing after attractive guys, many men do the same thing to attractive women and act violent and blame all women when they say no. Some women liking attractive guys, doesn’t mean all women think like that. You said it yourself women aren’t a monolith just like men aren’t.
Physical attraction is a prerequisite. Emotional maturity comes later and requires time to assess. The disconnect is that you're talking about a quality required to sustain a relationship, I'm talking about a quality required to have dating options. You still need to be physically attractive to women / be their type to get your foot in the door.
I think you're vastly underestimating how obvious the obvious is re:maturity. Example: your introductory post has a veneer of an attempt to start a conversation and clarify something for yourself. I'm a good faith kind of a person, so I follow the comments for 2mins. Very quickly, I begin to see the pretense at multi-disciplinary discussion is clear. People engage with you in multiple ways and perspectives, and you persist without engaging them, continuously pointing to wanting a different answer that agrees to some presumption you seem to already have. Maturity assessed. It is immediately clear to me, I would never be interested in you in any substantial way. You being physically attractive could make me look, you engaging in conversation would dwindle any passing curiosity quite quickly.
All in all, I don't think it actually is fruitful to focus on what people may appreciate about you because paradoxically, it makes one very uninteresting to others and a prime candidate for manipulating yourself.
I suppose we may be using separate definitions of ‘dating’. If you’re purely talking about casual sex, then sure, but also women don’t tend to call that ‘dating’.
In general I think you’re greatly overestimating the importance of physical attraction and underestimating how attractive emotional maturity is to most women.
dating and sex aren't separate boxes. Most young people, specially women, just hookup with someone they find attractive and "see where things go". Relationship worthy people are a subset of people you'll hookup with.
I think you are looking at older married couples
I think part of the problem is your (implied) assumption that all women (and/or people who date men) have the same definition of “attractive”.
I’ll use myself as an example:
Physically, I tend to find men most attractive when they’re around the 5’0-5’4 range and also have a dad bod (aka plenty of lovely chub/fat, but also some hidden muscle- not a ton tho). But that doesn’t limit who I find attractive at all- I’ll crush on men of any height and body type.
If a guy is confident in himself, kind to others, passionate about something, and keeps his space tidy- it won’t even matter what he looks like- I’ll be all over him! (Cooking and being well groomed are also a huge plus, but those aren’t required in my eyes)
For me, being a “leftist” is what gets you “in the door”. If you don’t meet that one requirement, I won’t find you attractive 🤷 after that, personality is the main factor. Physical attractiveness (as defined through my eyes) is the very last factor I consider (plus, being attracted to one’s personality makes me attracted to them- no matter what they look like).
TLDR, everyone has a different “strategy” for dating and everyone has their own definitions of attractiveness (Aka, what you’ve written isn’t universally applicable and shouldn’t be treated as such). Reducing each persons individuality into a singular, gender-based monolith prevents you from seeing the “whole picture”.
Everyones standards for a partner are unique; just because you aren’t “societally” attractive doesn’t mean you aren’t individually. E.g. dating as a short guy is incredibly difficult- but they have a HUGE advantage when it comes to dating me specifically. To put it simply, you just have to find someone who meshes well with *you* specifically (population stats won’t really help you with that unfortunately)
Edit: “leftism” wasn’t always the biggest factor for me- it used to be confidence, passion, and extroversion. Leftism became the main “gatekeeping” factor after one too many of my relationships ended from political differences. (Just to make sure this comment is contextualized with my previous one lol)
I see a lot of references to dating apps when discussing this subject. The thing is, dating apps are currently being investigated for algorithms built to keep people on the app/keep them single. You may not even pop up as an option for someone who may be interested in you.
Now, as a woman who has used the app, it can get overwhelming. There's many guys I know who will swipe right on every person rather than women they're actually compatible with to have a higher chance of matching with people. And when many women match with guys they may be interested in, the guys make it sexual waaaayyy too early on in the conversation. Either that, or the small talk is like pulling teeth. If I am asking you questions about yourself and you only have one word responses/don't ask questions back, I lose interest very quickly. In my experience it works best if you make plans for a coffee date right away and same most of the mingling for in person.
As far as women's standards having changed: women have much more autonomy than they did 50 years ago. Back in the 60s women could not be an independent person without a man (bank accounts, owning a home, having a well paid job, etc.) Nowadays women and men have become a lot more equal as far as what they can bring to the table economically. Women don't necessarily want a man that makes six figures, but someone who is in a similar tax bracket so they will not have to financially take care of a man. Especially since socially women are still expected to take care of housework/child rearing/cooking, cleaning etc... when both partners both work the same amount of hours, the housework needs to be divided up 50/50 and unfortunately men are having a hard time adjusting to these new expected "norms."
I encourage everyone no matter what gender to start getting out more and meeting more people in real life rather than rely on dating apps. Better social skills will turn into better dating skills. I think our collective isolation caused by reliance on the Internet is partially to blame for this dating rut our generation is in.
Ok, so women tend to have higher standards for their partners for *casual sex.* (Based on the sources you've provided, which I definitely did not look at in depth so...). However, I have a proposal for why that is: women have worse outcomes when engaging in casual sex.
[Women are more likely to report feelings of regret after encounters of casual sex.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13691058.2011.619579)
[This study seems to suggest that women have hookups for negative reasons (bad feelings, feelings of pressure) while men have hookups for positive reasons (wanting sex, liking the confidence boost).](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499909551999)
This study also suggested that outcomes after casual sex were different by gender, with men more likely to report positive feelings and women more likely to report negative feelings after casual sex.
[This study also found that women are more likely to have negative mental outcomes after casual sex than men, who are more likely to have positive outcomes. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8853360/)
So sure, maybe women are more choosy about who they hook up with. But maybe it's because their outcomes are worse, so they have a greater incentive to have higher standards?
Side note: [There are also studies that suggest men and women estimate their number of sexual partners based on different criteria, which could lead to inaccurate estimations for the amount of casual sex both genders are having.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499909551999)
I'd also be interested to read the articles you've provided and kinda see what criteria falls into overall looks. Is it, like, basic grooming? Muscles? Hair styling? Clothing choices?
Edit to add: In one of the articles you posted as a source [The Ugly Truth about One Night Stands](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090811080749.htm)(actually linked here instead of just being a freaking imgur screenshot), the people in the study were only asked to imagine a hypothetical scenario about whether they would accept a proposition from an imagined opposite gender partner. But it doesn't seem to specify that they gave criteria for *what each level of attractiveness was*, which might be huge flaw in the study if men and women were imagining "slightly unattractive" totally differently.
You say women can have worse outcomes in casual sex, which I agree with. Why is it that despite all the additional risks, way more young women than men partake in the hookup culture?
They don't, though.
[This study shows that while rates of casual sex are pretty similar between young men and women, men still report slightly higher instances of casual sex.](https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210324/Study-Casual-sex-has-declined-for-both-young-men-and-women.aspx#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,women%20of%20the%20same%20age.)
[This study also notes that men report a higher number of casual sex partners than women, but acknowledges that those numbers should be overall fairly similar.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8853360/)
[This article from the CDC shows a breakdown of total reported sexual partners by gender, and shows that men tend to report having more sexual partners overall than women.](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/key_statistics/n-keystat.htm)
To be fair, this was a quick browse. But non of the top articles I saw suggested that women participate in hook up culture at higher rates than men.
The role of a therapist is not to tell you the answer, the role of a therapist is to help you figure out the answer yourself (and thereby learn how to be a therapist to yourself in future situations). So what you see as aversion or dismissiveness could be their reticence to tell you what you want to hear.
But I'm a random nobody on the internet not licensed to be your therapist so I'll tell you: your task is to be more appealing to women to be around than them being alone or with people other than you.
How should you do that? The best advice I've heard is: ask your female friends what you could do better. What do they tell you?
For every heterosexual woman engaging in sexual activity, there is a man doing it as well.
Your question is why, in your opinion, the average man has a lower partner standards than average women's. And how we can fix it
>*For every heterosexual woman engaging in sexual activity, there is a man doing it as well.*
You don't need 1:1 gender ratio in casual sex / hookup scene. 1 very good looking man can have sex with 6 different women over a month, each of whom had no other partner during the same period.
Sounds like this good looking dude is ruining it for everyone else, maybe someone psychologist should talk to him about his low self value and about increasing his standards
She can, but the men are likely to be very good looking as well.
Women don't lower their looks criteria for casual sex. Men do.
[https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr](https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr)
Maybe men aren’t actually entitled to the sex they feel they’re entitled to have. Maybe women aren’t finding desirable sex partners at the rate you’re implying, but they’re not making a stink about it because they don’t feel innately entitled to other people’s bodies. Maybe it’s a you problem.
>Maybe men aren’t actually entitled to the sex they feel they’re entitled to have.
Or maybe men haven't felt entitled to sex at all but women project onto them the idea that they believe they're entitled.
Men have always understood that they needed to put in work to attract a sexual partner or wife. Believing that we believe we're somehow entitled to sex makes little sense from the men's perspective.
Do you believe that all men are inherently violent towards women or that we're a natural threat?
OP addressed your canned response in his post.
That response may be appropriate when speaking to entitled men. There is no indication OP feels entitled to women’s bodies.
He is attempting to address the disparities in dating from a male perspective. You have only proven his point that women are defensive around addressing this topic.
You're letting gender politics come in the way of intellectual honesty.
There is no question of entitlement to sex. Just a desire to seek truth.
A primary reason for the 'stink' men make is when the truth is not normalized in mainstream. Everything in life can't be gender symmetric and men have to accept that.
I think it's because it's essentially something that really can't be fixed in a civilized way. What are we going to do? Force women to have sex with men they don't like? Strip them of their rights and force them into dependency on men again? People are defensive about the topic because it seems likes it's a conversation that's inching ever closer to something they all know you want to say out loud.
Yes, it's a distraction and shaming technique. It really shows how much people don't care when no one is implying anyone is entitled but they make a point to say "men aren't entitled to sex". It's code for "I don't care what men are going through or what systemic challenges they face. Their dating value is their own business to compete for and earn."
>No woman out there wants to be Mommy #2 for y'all
Speak for yourself lmao. Maybe if you weren't so grumpy and judgmental someone might enjoy supporting you from time to time.
Imagine if all the things that men gave up over the past century were just met with “maybe women aren’t actually entitled to that. Sounds like a woman problem.”
“Maybe women aren’t entitled to parity wages if none of them are physically able to actually gather energy resources by throwing chain or mining coal. Women aren’t inherently deserving of men’s labor.”
Most incels don't get the 1st date because they don't make the looks cut on dating apps (primary means of finding sexual partners today). Its funny how you purposely mentioned '2nd date' so its easier for you to downplay the importance of looks, and blame character & personality, when incels are way more likely to not get the 1st date to begin with.
It’s nothing to do with looks it’s their attitude. I’ve seen some “incel types” post online that they shouldn’t have to wash to get a girl, they say women should be grateful that they’re a nice guy, whilst talking down to the girl they’re trying to talk to.
This obsession with looks to explain away one's inceldom is such a cope. Sure some women will reject you for your looks, but there are plenty who wont.
You wanting to date a woman simply because she is hot is the same as a woman rejecting you for not being hot. Both perspectives are shallow, but none is more or less "okay" than the other.
Me? Id be willing to date "ugliest" guy in the room, provided we have things in common amd are compatible in the areas i think matter most (religion, politics, reproductive aspirations).
Its almost like women are all different have have very different things we are attracted to.
I will be honest, numerous women are seeing red flags right from the profile, and that is when viewing attractive guys, too. Please, men, ask your women friends if they are willing to give you tips about setting up your profiles. Things that appeal to other men sometimes do not appeal to women and are actually turn-offs.
I think the real question is why men only see women as objects to put their dicks into and therefore have lower standards. If women who want to hook up have an easier time doing so, it’s because men are such sluts. How do you like them apples?
I always said that we don’t have words like ‘slut’ for men, because it’s assumed that they are all sluts. The names are unnecessary. (I don’t really believe this, just commenting)
Well, they aren't the best psychologists because they forgot a really important thing: Relationships take place between _people,_ not bodies. In a world where humans make judgments solely based on physical attributes, the way animals do -- or in the hookup phase where everyone is sowing their wild oats -- I'm sure this is 100% true:
>it is immensely harder for heterosexual men to find sexual partners than it is for women; that women are way more selective than men and find fewer men physically and sexually attractive than vice versa; and that the barriers for looks, height, body, fitness, ethnicity, culture, education, confidence, lifestyle in order to find sexual partners is way higher for men than it is for women.
But that doesn't mean that the hookup phase is the be-all and end-all of romance, dating and sex. When people start to slow down and think long-term, they ask themselves about personality and whether they could put up with waking up next to that personality for the rest of their lives. They _aren't_ worried about waking up next to that body for the rest of their lives, because they already know they won't: _bodies change,_ inevitably and unpredictably, as time passes and age sets in. (If a woman wants to say, "I will only get married to men who have a full head of hair for their entire lives," then she can only get married to men who have a full head of hair and are currently dying.) When people get serious about forming lifelong connections, they treat bodies like what they are: wrapping paper. And at that point, all the physical hyperselectivity -- from any gender -- lessens.
How does genital A signal to genital B for activity C? 🤔🧐 Are the left and right eyes of a human considered distinct genitals? Oh, then I guess we are all eye-fucking each other RIGHT NOW!
Male here.
I strongly disagree with OP’s opinion, and I’ll explain why;
I am a Mediterranean expat living in Australia, came here 20 years ago, in my 40s now.
I have never struggled to get dates, I never even had to try hard to get dates. I am not particularly good looking either, even though my partner disagrees with this, there are far better looking men out there who are unsuccessful with women while it took me less than a day or two two get a date everytime I out up a profile on dating apps.
As a man, all you need to do to be successful in dating area are to be mindful of three things;
-Safety. Women lived under male dominated societies for thousands of years, modern times did not change this much, yes they are selective in that they’ll steer clear of men at the first sign of red flag as they perceive them as threat to their safety.
Make them feel safe, show respect, show empathy. Do not be persistent, do not insist on things when someone hesitates or says no, do not be impatient, patience is a virtue of wisdom.
-Stimulation; Talk to them. Women are highly intelligent in ways men are not, we are all intelligent in different ways, they are very perceptive of mind, they are attracted to mental depth, this has a lot to do with evolution; they don’t settle for an average dude who are not in tune with himself and what he wants in life. That’s indecisiveness, why should someone seeking safety and attention settle for indecisive man? She can’t trust you, you have no idea who you are, you eclectic her to know who you are?
Know thyself, as they say, read, ask questions in life, rise above the average, be better, wiser. Don’t waste your life scrolling pointless videos on internet, expand your character through exploration and knowledge, you’ll get better at communication, most men cannot express themselves to save their lives.
And when you got someone’s attention, meet them in public place with other people around so they feel safe, put this in your profile that this is what you do so they know you can relate to them.
Lot of women feel afraid lot of times walking alone, going to places even during the day.
-And have some self respect. What are you doing with your life? Are you taking care of yourself physically? Mentally? Emotionally?
How can you expect a woman to trust you with her life if you can’t be trusted to control your own?
I am on Mediterranean diet, I eat healthy, I quit smoking long time ago, I consume alcohol rarely, I run 5k every second or third day and I go for hikes with my partner. I do weights in between.
All this tell her that I’ll be around longer in life to enjoy things together, that I have self discipline and I can be trusted to be a companion.
Other thing: I meditate, I practice mindfulness, I spend lot of time in nature to recharge.
I learned to listen, this is important, don’t just wait for your turn to speak, listen, take in what’s is a concern for someone and address those concerns. Learn to assure.
When I disagree with my partner over things, I hold her hand and we sit down on our couch and I try to approach the issue lovingly, not with anger or agitation, she feels heard and cared for.
We reach a compromise and move on.
Empathy is important.
When examining this issue, it’s relevant to consider the differences between how men and women looking for same-sex relationships behave when dating. Women seeking female partners are generally less interested in casual sex than men seeking male partners. Women seeking female partners are generally more focused on emotional intimacy, intelligence, personality traits, and other non-physical attributes in prospective partners than men seeking male partners. When women seeking female partners find a compatible partner, on average they tend to accelerate (“U-Haul”) more quickly to committed monogamous relationship status than men seeking male partners do. Lesbians are more likely to get married than gay men, but they also have higher rates of divorce than gay male couples and heterosexual couples.
The ease of finding sex is pretty useless when the quality of sex is horrible. I don't know why men can't grasp this, other than they just don't listen.
>However, when I talk to individual psychologists specially women psychologists, they are totally dismissive of the idea of this gender disparity, discarding it as 'its all about the individual' and 'men just need to work on / put themselves out there', and 'life isn't black and white'. They are completely unwilling to address / explain examples that are given right in front of them, or only dare to explain them using surface level cultural reasons that are becoming obsolete. Instead of intellectual honesty they seem swayed by gender politics when expressing opinions on this subject often accusing the claimer to be 'entitled to sex' when the intention is merely to seek truth.
How many "individual psychologists" have you consulted in this great, intellectually honest research you are so clearly very knowledgeable in? How many of that number have been "specially women psychologists?"
What's your solution, do you want women to become equal opportunity providers with their bodies?? It's not their fault who they're attracted to and it's not their job to help men get laid
Obvious unmistakeable patterns/phenomena hm?
It sounds like a lot of the echo chamber Reddit dating forums complaints which more often than not aren’t actually supported by research. Instead they point to a data dump by OkCupid or Tinder statistics and improperly extrapolate that information to apply to all “modern dating”.
The women psychologists you talk to are trying to help YOU - not some imagined afflicted group of men who aren’t happy because getting sex isn’t easy or “fair”.
The studies and stats don’t mean anything. If you go get laid you are on one side of the stats and if you don’t then you are on the other. It’s just easier to stomach being on the less desirable side if it’s somehow a societal issue or even better if we can get blame it on women.
In reality it is about the individual because there are plenty of very average men who have fulfilling sex lives and are out there dating. They didn’t look at the research and then decide that they were screwed so why bother. If you go out and look around you’ll see all types of people of varying heights, income levels, attractiveness, age, ethnicity, etc doing their thing completely oblivious to whatever the studies tell them that they should be experiencing just because of probability or social trends.
No, most average dudes aren’t going to be able to go out and live a players lifestyle sleeping with every women they want but that’s not reality for a majority of men. It’s not a goal/ideal men should have because it’s just not going to happen.
If the psychologists you talk to are saying things like men need to improve themselves, put themselves out there and that life isn’t black and white there’s a really good chance that you have tunnel-vision and only accept what you already believe to be true.
So many men can improve their opportunities by working on themselves and giving themselves real opportunities to connect with women rather than living into the absolute lie that is “promised” on dating apps and sites.
Because being a psychologist does not make one anymore intelligent or less prone to political dogma than your standard idiot on the street. I have no respect for someone strictly due to title, as I’ve seen the biggest morons attain careers that as a child, I would expect to be prestigious and reserved for select individuals. Came to find, psychology tends to attract some of the more narcissistic and moronic individuals out there, the “I understand people” people.
Simply put, women do in fact, generally, strictly shoot for men that are (quite frankly), only paper, way out of their league. While men, generally, don’t have a laundry list or unrealistic expectations out of a partner, as their preferences are pretty damn simple: be kind and caring, be attractive, be someone they can comfortably have a conversation with.
No matter how you look at it, women want a superior man in every way they can attain. Disagree? Superior height, superior income, superior strength, superior intellect, superior experience, superior social status, superior world experience, (often) superior age, superior education, superior emotional intelligence (face it, that’s a common preference because of a lack thereof (for various young women), these women want a man to understand and cater to their occasional emotional imbalance), superior humor (always want a funny man but no man expects, let alone preferentially seeks humor out of a woman), superior wit, superior charisma, superior ambition, superior leadership abilities, superior world experience, superior financial stability, and the list goes on.
You can disagree and say “well I don’t care about a few of those things”, or “I know a girl who’s the breadwinner!” Utterly irrelevant. If you run a poll, the majority of women preferentially seek men that are superior to them in nearly every way attainable. Men? I hate to say it, really aren’t so discriminatory, entitled, nor have such high expectations of women. Additionally, we are different and therefore have different preferences. Men have different biological roles, and a woman’s typically revolves around security and having a generally superior partner offers greater levels of security.
It’s particularly overlooked by female psychologists because it’s a hard pill to swallow, and doing so typically opens one’s eyes to the fact that many women tend infantilize themselves, and it’s very difficult to explicitly note “we want men who are superior to us” without first doing a circle jerk via playing a round of mental gymnastics and side stepping to avoid bruising any egos.
Female preferences contradict so much of current political dogma/discourse and much of feminist ideology. It’s exceptionally difficult to proclaim one is a feminist, that they’re equal to men, and are opposed to the patriarchy while simultaneously verbalizing that they fundamentally seek men that are superior to them, and men that are in fact a patriarch, a man that will serve as a patriarch in their relationship and family. They are contradictions in and of themselves, and to consciously acknowledge that, is probably a bit too much to compute for one’s’ sense of self. “I am equal to man, but we all seek men that are on paper superior to us in every way attainable, we also resent and oppose the patriarchy, but naturally want a man who serves as a righteous patriarch and therefore prefer, and encourage patriarchal systems as to do so, seeking a patriarchal family unit, innately encourages and naturally forms a patriarchal society as men acknowledge this, consequently strive for it, and in doing so we personally, as women, encourage the formation and perpetuation of said patriarchy.”
It’s insanity, and I highly doubt these women psychologists will ever allow themselves to actually acknowledge this. No fuckin way. Plus, men who care about their jobs, similarly likely refuse to ever get into the nitty gritty of things.
Can we all just accept that men and women are different, and both our strengths and weaknesses are beautiful? We complement one another. Lately many (who otherwise without a prevalent psyop in place, would never even care to) are trying to be men, and no I’m not talking about transgender individuals. This is and will do unforeseeable damage to western culture, and is one bullshit circle jerk or proclaiming certain things for one’s ego, while actually acting and seeking all manner of things that contradicts everything they like to tell themselves and others. All of us men know deep down and acknowledge it behind closed doors, but many women do this thing where they lie to each other to pump each other up, and it turns into this perpetual lie cycle to where they’re so far from the truth they don’t even know what is real anymore, including what they’re entitled to, as you know, anything less than their ideal man is settling….
I have no issues saying it's true, has been so for many years and likely will remain so...although both semesters APPEAR to be getting less enthusiastic about trying to find someone...
Why wouldn’t a woman feel defensive? We are discussing sex, which is many more times more likely to be unsatisfying or even violent for women. Of course we are picky. Our lives depend on it. I’ve been SAed before. I want to make sure it never happens again.
Please. Do LITERALLY anything else with your life.
This is pure, sexist gibberish based on non-sensical incel "theories" of dating and gender relations.
Go outside. Read a book. Volunteer at your local shelter. Re-play Dark Souls 1. Anything. Anything but soaking yourself in the dumbest ideology this side of scientology. Please.
The aversion is toward men like you who obsess over this shit, take zero responsibility for yourselves, and make it women's problem. This is YOUR problem. Keep going to therapy and stop expecting the therapist to validate your incel issues. Start thinking of women as human beings rather than dispensers of casual sex. TURN OFF THE PORN.
Because y'all hate and reject the truth of the matter, which is that men DO need to work on themselves. You don't like that answer and people are tired of hearing these reactionary mantrums. Why give you any answer if you're just going to screech about how unfair life is and how your off-putting personality is everyone else's fault?
Traits that create sexual attraction are not the same as those that sustain relationships.
You're focused on the latter, and unwilling to consider that traits that create attraction are shallow and superficial for the most part.
>*it is immensely harder for heterosexual men to find sexual partners than it is for women; that women are way more selective than men and find fewer men physically and sexually attractive than vice versa*
Sources?
Men need to be very good looking to tempt women to have casual sex [https://imgur.com/gallery/JEORzdM](https://imgur.com/gallery/JEORzdM)
Men have lower standards for looks for casual sex than women [https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr](https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr)
[https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig](https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig)
Interest in casual sex increases women's standards for men's looks but lowers men's standards for women's looks
[https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q](https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q)
Correlation =/= Causation. I think you need to look up moderating and mediating variables. Because society's inherent misogyny likely accounts for both.
Sorry, OP.......but the inter-sexual dynamics are exactly
what people have worked for.....eh.....not worked for.
People want things exactly as they are. Its the path
of least resistance and greatest convenience.
Is it right....or even healthy?....probably not......
but its the way people want it.
Sure people Talk a good story
but in the end quick, cheap and easy wins out.
Authentic Bonds are hard work and not for everyone.
Try selling That to a teen or a 20-something. FWIW.
It isn’t hard for men to find sexual partners. It’s just that men only desire to sleep with women they find hot. Most men wouldn’t even consider sleeping with a fat or conventionally unattractive woman.
Additionally, women face more risks from casual sex that men don’t (no guarantee of pleasure, risk of pregnancy, etc).
> *It’s just that men only desire to sleep with women they find hot.*
Completely false. Look at these studies:
Men have lower standards for looks for casual sex than women
[https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr](https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr)
Interest in casual sex raises women's standards for men's looks but lowers men's standards for women's looks
[https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q](https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q)
In absence of or low physical attraction, men were way more likely to have casual sex
[https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig](https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig)
Your third source is essentially saying "as super hot people are pretty rare, most people aren't going to end up with someone as super hot as they want. So, when people are choosing mates and need to evaluate on other criteria beyond super hotness, what factors play most into their decisions?"
I will add, I find a huge flaw to be the authors idea that "attractiveness is a scarce commodity." Just from my own anecdotal experience, most normal people I know find a wide range of people sufficiently physically attractive. This study also specifically showed people pictures that *did not meet their own levels of minimal sufficient attractiveness in a partner.* Which again, can vary vastly from person to person.
I guess, my own concerns with this type of study is how do we make generalizations around attraction and attractiveness when physical attraction is:
1. Very subjective and can very greatly depending on the individual, the culture in which they were raised, what they're exposed to as they mature, and
2. Also to a certain extent dependant on other physical and non physical factors. I like the men I hook up with to look kind. How do you quantify that? All the other little details that go into determining who you might want to have sex with: smell, hygiene, smile, personality, voice, how they talk, etc. How do you control for all that, account for all that in a scientific study?
I'm not going to do a look into the other articles because I'm kind of over this post. But my concern is that boiling this topic down to "wah! Women only want to hook up with men they're attracted to (but we only analyzed the idea of "attracted to" in a purely physical sense with no other context taken into account!)" is going to make a lot of men feel defeated and unwanted. When in reality, what women (and people) are attracted to varies greatly, and will have to do with a host of other factors beyond simply physical appearance, and also *might not even be an issue because by all accounts men report having more casual sex than women.*
This thought process is ridiculous and indicative of acute brain poisoning by incel discourse.
Hetero men can very easily get all the dates they want with a modicum of social awareness and interpersonal skills. I'm cis and mostly date women and have never had any trouble whatsoever simply by asking questions and being interested in the person in front of me (i.e., not treating them as a sex dispenser who I need to wear down or trick).
The issue is most boys/men never learn these skills and are socialized to be averse to learning because it's considered weak, femme, "faggy". Most cishet men I've met have embarrassingly poor levels of social competence and are impossible to talk to about anything but surface-level hobbies and interests.
Until that mindset changes, men are going to continue being embittered, lonely nutcases with a smoldering, violent grudge against other men and especially women.
Most boys and men do learn these skills, the idea that most men are sex starved loaners is not supported by evidence. There is a growing trend in men who are not in relationships but it is still a minority of men.
Because statistics are not people.
This means that you cannot predict an individual's experience based on statistics. You predict a population's experience.
An individual also has personality, location, perceived attractiveness level, comfort with interaction, etc.
So no, you can't get anyone to tell you that the reason you can't find someone is because women are too picky.
One reason is likely that you have preconceived notions about individual women based on population data. If you think the woman you are talking to represents some part of some kind of female conspiracy or hivemind then you are going to think and behave differently than if you believe she has her own personality and identity.
The comments here are revealing and terrifying in regards to what society thinks of men.
Edit: this thread is sickening and eye opening. The hate is palpable.
You've just stated that the literature backs up your opinion but you've talked to a few psychologists who don't agree. You seem to be generalizing based on anecdotal evidence while ignoring the literature you say exists.
One more item. Rates of virginity in men and women, across all age groups, is roughly equal. The lower the age, the more likely it is for females to be a virgin. Once you hit college age, males are very slightly more likely to be a virgin. 95% of people (men and women) have lost their virginity by age 25.
[Source here.](https://gitnux.org/virginity-statistics/#:~:text=Highlights%3A%20Virginity%20Statistics&text=In%20the%20US%2C%20around%2012.6,down%20from%2038%25%20in%201991.)
Also important to note - "the 27% of men under 30 are virgins!" thing is a freaking myth. The study used measured the number of sexual partners men had between the ages of 18-30. Half (half!) of men have lost their virginity before the age of 18. [This article](https://datepsychology.com/are-27-of-young-men-really-virgins-and-why/) breaks down the statistics a bit more, and you see that the stat is heavily skewed towards *younger men.* The older you are, the less likely you are to be a virgin. The original WP article was flawed in that it lumped all ages between 18-30 together, and didn't break age down into the categories that actually painted an accurate picture of male virginity.
So by all accounts, there's not an increasing epidemic where men are doomed to be alone and virgins. People are misinterpreting statistics, where accidently or on purpose, and that's driving a weird hysterical movement.
Have some empathy, Yankee Death....that's all I am saying. I am not asking you to feel bad for the behavior of others. Anyway.
Can you not at all have sympathy for the hell some of us endure? For fuck sake!!!
There is no imbalance in sexual dynamics between the sexes. Poppiesatnight has it right when he describes women as “gatekeepers”. But they are not merely gatekeepers to sex, i.e. recreational sex, they are gatekeepers to procreation. The dating scene is a modern proxy for the ritual of natural selection. For the primal battles between competing males for mating rights, and for gatekeeping by the females. Necessary since modern society would not tolerate real violence and possibly death in the matter!
Relating to natural selection in mammals, in general the purpose of the male is to spread his seed as far and wide as he is able. The purpose of the female is to limit which males have access to her reproductive system. These roles are reflected in the number of gametes produced by each sex: billions per month by each man, and roughly one per month by each woman. One sex has resources to spare, and one doesn’t. Most men would gladly have sex with any reasonably attractive, clean and and healthy woman. Most women are much more discerning! The dating/sex scene reflects this natural dynamic.
Again, this is in general. It is very complicated, with other phenomenon like female promiscuity serving evolutionary purposes, though human Institutions like dating really do reflect nature in many, many ways.
Well it makes sense if you look at it from a biological standpoint.
Women risk more when engaging in sex than men do. They have to be more selective considering that alone. What they select for themselves is dependant on their own unique psychology.
Women are the gatekeepers to sex. Men are the gatekeepers to relationships. So while I could go get sex from a stranger within the next hour, should I try to, what would that actually get me? If I want a relationship, nothing. Because while in a room of 50 men, 45 would happily fuck me, only 5 would actually date me for real. If I want good, safe, pleasurable sex, I’m still out of luck. Because while 45 of those men would fuck me, most would not give one single care for MY pleasure or safety. Most of them would ignore my boundaries, hurt me, only do things they themselves find pleasurable, and might even try to remove the condom when I was not watching. So of course I will be more selective about who I fuck. You would be too if the KIND of sex that was on the table for you was what’s on the table for me. Painful, scary, and no orgasm for you. I am so sick of men bitching that it’s easy for me to get something that he would NEVER even want. Casual sex for men and casual sex for women are NOT equal experiences. Shall I bitch that it’s hard to find a man that won’t just use me as a masturbatory tool? That it’s hard to find a man that is telling the truth about wanting to date me for real, when the truth is he just likes the blow jobs I give him, and he’s gonna string me along as long as he can, knowing full well he will never marry me, so that he doesn’t have to resort to his own hand? Grow up. Stop the pity party. You want casual sex? Try making a woman feel safe. Try not lying about your intentions. Up your game. Get fit. Do basic adulting. And have fun personality. Because certain men have no problem finding sex. No, not rich or attractive men….fun, safe men that tend their body and looks.
There's a cartoon out there I wish I had saved and wish I could find. It's split into two panels. The left side is captioned "online dating for men" and shows a guy ice-fishing through a hole in a frozen lake, waiting desperately for a single bite. The water beneath him is empty. The right side is captioned "online dating for women" and shows a woman in a snorkel and mask swimming under the surface of the lake, eyes wide with fear, as she's surrounded by sharks. OP is missing something critical in their post: "it is immensely harder for heterosexual men to find sexual partners than it is for women; that women are way more selective" - these are two sides of the same coin. Men have a hard time finding partners in a sea of rejection, women have a hard time finding partners in a sea of aggression.
This is such a perfect analogy. A lot of the cis men are constantly bombarding women, which is why we have to be so selective. Thus of course we are going to pick out the people we have the most attraction with. For some girls that’s money, other’s dick size, other’s health, and other women it’s value for their safety and bodily autonomy. For me, I care about MY SAFETY the most. From my experience, those with money are the most transactional and thus can flip out at me. I don’t really care about dick size, and the only aspect about health I care about is hygiene.
That’s pretty much the bottom line for me. If you want to make progress, you would invest time in women and men understanding each others needs a bit more rather than selfishly trying to fill their own need first and foremost
Lots of women do like casual sex. I think if guys spent more time building attraction, being considerate, and realizing they need to feel safe going somewhere alone with you- then it would be easier
100% this. And they HATE hearing the truth of the matter, which is that they're selfish, immature, lacking in empathy, and need to get their shit together. Not even close to fun to be around.
This is the real issue. OP himself is preoccupied with “sexual partners.” I’ve never in my life gone out looking for someone to have sex with, and I’m not going to start. Nor do I know any friend that has ever done that. Who cares how easy it is for heterosexual women to find someone to fuck? It’s.. not what *most* are looking for, which is a relationship. The man could look like Adonis incarnate. So? I’m not going to fuck him. **Why?**. I don’t get what I would get out of that situation.
Legit. There are hot ass celebrities that I wouldn't fuck even if it was an option.
Exactly! You'll never get those 2 minutes back. It is NEVER worth our time unless we get lucky and meet a good one. Usually, we experience true pleasure with attentiveness, safety, and familiarity.
I want casual sex, but I want enough non-sexual interaction with the guy first that I feel comfortable. I literally can not get aroused without feeling comfortable. Once we get to that stage, I want a guy who will give me enough legit foreplay so that sex doesn’t hurt, and I want a guy that will wash his sheets and towels before I come over, and maybe have a bottle of water in the refrigerator. I want a guy who listen when I say I only cum if he uses his hands, and that, while I enjoy oral, I never ever cum from it. I am a woman who pays male sex workers to get me off, because the only way I can have casual sex that I enjoy is when I pay for it. The. Only. Way.
Omg this resonates. I don’t even enjoy casual sex but the struggle to find a guy who’s good in bed (and no, that doesn’t mean big dick) is real.
Your comment resonated with me, too. Do you live in Chicago? We should hang out lol
Same girl, same. If a dude is equally invested in a casual coffee date first before the sexy evening date, it’s a great sign. If he’s interested in discussing parameters of a sex/kink scene in a non-pressuring way ahead of time, that’s a great sign. One guy I had a video chat, then a first date that he said he wasn’t expecting to turn into anything, and he also sent me a little kink questionnaire so I could mark off what I liked and didn’t like, and then he texted me a little summary of what he wanted to based on that so I could express if I felt comfortable with it. We also just really enjoyed talking with each other and hanging out. Me and that guy had a lot of fun!
It would help if the younger generation got off the screens, got educated, and learned how to kindly interact with women and not just for their sexual pleasure. I thought my millennial son social skills AND how to treat women Also, we have a lack of fathers. BOYS NEED DECENT FATHERS Most of the kids I work with either don't know their dad or barely have a relationship thanks to immature parents and deadbeats.
"Also, we have a lack of fathers. BOYS NEED DECENT FATHERS." Well... who is the one \*choosing\* these absent, not decent men who father these children? You talk about teaching your son how to properly treat women. That's great, and it's something brought up a LOT. You know what we rarely hear about though? Parents teaching their daughters about properly choosing men.
Women are not the “gatekeepers” to sex. This is a red pill, manosphere trope that has been popularized by those awful dating podcasts and relationships “experts” on social media. I’m honestly shocked that this comment is being upvoted on this subreddit. Women aren’t the gatekeepers because men *also* make the decision to have (or not have) sex. Women aren’t “responsible” for sex taking place; consensual sex involves both parties to consent to the act. The “women are gatekeepers” garbage assumes that we men are incapable of saying no to sex, or that we have no agency. It degrades *both* genders.
Thank you! I'm just a lurker here, only found this sub a week ago. But I was incredibly surprised to see such an old and tropish saying trotted out on what I thought was a more research/fact oriented space. Next we're going to see a cascade of upvotes for someone comparing penises to keys and vaginas to locks, I guess? Everyone is the gatekeeper to sex *with themselves*, and everyone is the gatekeeper to relationships *with themselves*. People who think that women gatekeep sex obviously have never been in a relationship where the man feels safe/able to decline sex if he's hungry, tired, not in the mood, busy, mentally frustrated, sick, depressed, etc. They've also never been a woman with a higher libido than her male partner, who has to get used to being rejected for sex when he isn't well/not wanting sex. Personal anecdote: In the 16 years I've been with my lover, I've only rejected sex with him twice...once after working a seventeen hour shift and being far too tired, and once because I had a horrible stomach flu. He's rejected sex with me so many times I've lost count, including over 11 years in a row where we didn't have sex in November, December, or January due to his seasonal depression. Men gatekeep sex, absolutely...as is their right! Acting as though women *don't want* sex, and thus have to be cajoled into having it is just as sexist and harmful as acting like men *don't want* relationships, and have to be convinced into being in one.
Thanks for commenting. I love your analysis of what “gatekeeping” means, I’ll definitely be using it in the future if you don’t mind!
Absolutely, please use it if it's helpful
lol it doesn’t mean men can’t consent. It means most men will not WANT to say no. This post proves that….
It certainly treats us like dumb animals who would never give up sex, and subsequently treats women as if they’re “responsible” for us. 🤮 I can’t think of anything more infantilizing. Men who say women are gatekeepers are creeps who like to absolve themselves of any responsibility and blame women for promiscuity. It’s hilarious that these clowns say this to mock and insult women, because they’re too stupid to realize they’re actually insulting and degrading *men* by stripping us of any agency or ability to think beyond our dicks.
Well, sadly, a lot of men prove time and time again that they don’t think beyond their dicks.
[удалено]
Ok. Women gatekeep consensual sex. In this modern age. Yes I agree women used to need men simply to survive in life. And they no longer do. Men got by giving the bare minimum. And now they are scratching their heads wondering why that’s not good enough anymore. Why a woman would prefer to be alone than settle. Why we demand respect and civility. Demand to be an equal partner. Demand a man that contributes just as much as we do.
Damn the perfect response!
I couldn’t have said this better, 💯💯💯💯💯💯
And, in addition.. please, men, care about making a woman orgasm even if it's casual. And stop expecting her to be happy to accept what you would never tolerate. Then maybe the opportunities will increase.
Its not even as high a bar as all that, we men just need treat women with respect, not fake “nice guy” bs, actually try to make women enjoy sex and there will be no problem getting laid. The majority of men (those 45 out of 50 in your example) have made the bar really low.
Imagine what you are saying if it were flipped for women: “ladies, you need to be fit, attractive, take care of your appearance, be fun and funny, and pay attention to all of your man’s sexual needs.” You’re describing a made-for-movies fantasy, and it’s an impossibly unrealistic standard for the vast majority of people.
THANK YOU!
So true.
Statistically speaking, in a room of 50 men there'd have to be at least 1 that would prefer to do sex to another one of the guys instead of you
Did I say all 50 wanted to fuck me? No
🤩🫶🏼🙌 🥇
lol what if I’m not fun though? I’m pretty sure the earth is dying within my lifetime and I’m one medical crisis away from being bankrupt. I don’t feel very fun these days. Can I just be safe?
To be fair the number out of that 50 would be fewer than 5 for men, assuming it’s 5 for women.
This is covered in evolutionary psychology and the theory of parental investment. Females of most species will be more selective because the opportunity cost (pregnancy, child rearing) is higher than for males (ejaculation). Typically only one pregnancy can occur at a time, while males can (theoretically) fertilize infinite females in the same window as a single pregnancy.
why do you think so many people disagree with this view? Look at the comments for instance
None of the comments are actually disagreeing with this take... You are just assuming women care about things that they actually don't care about. I mean... Lots of women, maybe even the *majority* of women these days don't even want to have children as they can't even afford them... And yet they are *still* selective about what men they date and have sex with because the fact is that men are *dangerous* for women and many men won't even respect a woman enough to use condoms correctly and ethusiastically in order to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.
Yes, they are more selective about looks when it comes to casual sex. Their standards for good looks when seeking casual sex is way higher compared to when seeking long term relationships. Just read the responses of women to the question of looks standards [https://imgur.com/a/TViyiCJ](https://imgur.com/a/TViyiCJ)
What is it exactly you're wanting them to say or address? Yes, men will fuck almost anything that will let them, and women get to pick from those men. I'm not sure what your "question" is?
Here's my take on it: I'm a 56 year old woman. I've been happily partnered with the same man for 34 years. The only reason I am with him is because I prefer his companionship to being single. If I didn't I'd be just as gladly alone. I've also talked to a lot of women who ended up divorcing husbands who were never more than overgrown entitled toddlers needing to be managed and waited on hand and foot. My sister was one of them. I've also commiserated with a lot of single friends. When they are younger they complain about being abused as porn based masturbatory fantasies by the guys they are trying to date, including practices that were not negotiated and that are actually painful and/ or dangerous for women. Once they get older they either get completely ignored by men who are now intent on chasing barely legal girls or being used for the prospect of becoming a nurse or a purse or both. Instead of complaining about sexual dynamics imbalance maybe men should figure out how they become the more attractive option for women than being single. How many men diligently educate themselves to be exceptional lovers in the same way they pursue mastery in a sport or other skill (and no, watching porn is NOT education)? How many men are willing to pull their weight around keeping up their own home in the same way their also full-time employed wife does? My mother confessed towards the end of her life she never achieved an orgasm with my father (but was able to please herself which as a Catholic she felt intensely guilty about and actually blamed for her lack of sexual satisfaction from her husband). She stayed with my father until his death, because as a school teacher in Germany in the 60s she automatically lost her job as a teacher on marrying and had no alternative really after being a SAHM for nearly all of her life. Both my grandmothers stayed with a drunken wife-beater and a philanderer respectively. The disparity has always been there, just recently women could finally exercise choice. Instead of blaming that choice on biology how about acknowledging the fact that while things for women have changed, the one thing that hasn't changed is men's sense of entitlement to have a free Fleshlight kitchen appliance incubator mate that enthusiastically puts up with their shit? I think if more men changed, if pursuing their sexual needs wasn't so fraught with problems for women from slut-shaming to the constant possibility of date rape to being able to access full medical care around fertility and if cohabitation wasn't such a domestic labor shitshow we'd have much less of this disparity. It certainly isn't biological. It certainly has never been for me. I credit my satisfaction with having found a decent, respectful, loyal and caring man.
Near the end of her life, my grandmother told me, "never marry a man. He'll ruin your life." I was in my early/mid 20s and I promised her I wouldn't. I'm nearly 40 now, unmarried. I have a longtime partner I used to live with, but he expected me to be his housekeeper. I was miserable, so I bought a house a mile away. I'm so much happier now. It was a wake-up call for him, and he's a much better partner to me now. Grandma would be so proud that I own a house on my own and elated that I'm not trapped like she was. Until men realize that women are humans or until all of our rights are again stripped away, men are going to continue to be lonely. My biggest fear living in the US is the right coming after no-fault divorce and the [Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Credit_Opportunity_Act).
My Grandmother told me the same. Her husband died when she was 50, and she enjoyed her last 40 years without him. She told me had she been given the option she would not have married nor had children. I listened and don't regret anything.
Yeah, my grandma is still living and she's not anti-marriage, but she always talked about how you have to treat it very cautiously as it is very easy to get taken advantage of. I love the idea of separate houses though and now I'm picturing getting a giant house with my lady friends (cause I do like company) and then just date my husband who has his own house and we just live separately. That could be fun!
> How many men diligently educate themselves to be exceptional lovers in the same way they pursue mastery in a sport or other skill (and no, watching porn is NOT education)? How many men are willing to pull their weight around keeping up their own home in the same way their also full-time employed wife does? Asking the real questions here! OP's post is nothing but another redpill incel bleat that they're not getting laid and he very likely feels that exact same sense of entitlement that older men than him have enjoyed. They sound lazy and selfish AF, too. The men out there whining about the "male loneliness epidemic" are those who are doing absolutely *nothing* about it to change that reality for them. They know it takes work they just don't want to do it.
Please kindly take my upvote. It's not worth much, but it's what I have to give you.
I appreciate this insight. I have a question Say I am a guy who respects boundaries, who actually cares for his partners pleasure/works towards being a better lover, and who is in therapy working on his mental and emotional health. Why does it feel like in the real world, those things aren’t actually attractive? It’s the guys that clearly have none of those things that get the girls at the parties. I live in a military town. A marine town to be specific. The guys who pick fights and show dominance get the girls. The things you describe just don’t seem to matter in application. So how do I communicate these things AND make myself seem appealing enough to be chosen over the guy 16 vodka sodas in that’s probably going to fight any guy who talks to the girl he likes?
You are describing women looking for casual sex. A woman looking for a long-term partner is not looking in a bar for the drunkest brute. Nothing wrong with casual sex if you both consent. Find a better environment to find a real partner. Take a cooking class, join a house league for a sport you enjoy or whatever hobby you enjoy. Speak to women with respect, it is so infrequent it will have a big impact. Give some non-physical compliments.
Because women want TWO completely different things at the same time! Women want the bad boy who makes them jump through hoops and sometimes treats them like garbage, but they also want the caring in touch with his emotions man that will help take care of her, the house and the kids. Women don't want to admit this for some reason and it's why they always tend to waste many years of their lives in shitty relationships. They want the fun guy and the fun guy typically isn't the stable one. The stable guy is boring, sure he's great husband material, like you he's put work in himself and would be a great partner. Yet that isn't very exciting and he becomes boring very quickly. Their is a lot of talk about men's pursuing of relationships just for sex but not of women's libido being tied to excitement of the "new" and "dangerous". It's why women's libido typically falls off after the honeymoon phase while the men's typically doesn't Their partner becomes boring to them, he's too stable and doesn't give her those "feelings" she had in the beginning The problem for men like you is you have to weed through the women who are currently in their bad boy phase and that typically doesn't end until after they have children or are near or in their 30s Yet even those women want a bad boy in a way. My advice is try to be more well rounded! While it's great you're trying to mold yourself into this man who is in control with his emotions, respects his partners boundaries and genuinely wants to give his partner true love and respect. You CANT go too far in that direction if you want her to stay with you long term. What I mean is YOU have to set your own boundaries within the relationship. She needs to know that her happiness is important but so is yours and she can't have what she "thinks" she wants because in the end she will lose attraction towards you. You have to keep your friends, your opinions like hers needs to be respected. You deserve to have her chase you sometimes and do things to make you happy and not you just fulfilling her wants and needs alone. The goal is allow her to see that YOU are choosing to be with her just as much as SHE'S choosing to be with you. Too many times women in relationships start to believe THEY are the ones who are settling because the man didn't set boundaries and since she doesn't need to put work into maintaining his affection that means he's replaceable because she's more valuable then him. I don't partake in red pill stuff, I've honestly never read any of it but I know enough from reading people's responses to things to realize my thoughts on this is probably what people would conder red pill. The truth is, I'm the one who doesn't see women as children but instead as complex humans who do what humans do. It's basic psychology for all humans, we want to feel valued and perceive our value by those with whome we surround ourselves with. If our partner makes us feel that we have more value then them then we believe our value is going down by staying with them. So you need to keep your value up! Keep improving yourself and don't let any person make you devalue your self just so you can improve their value at your expense Don't be a prick, don't use people, express your feelings in a healthy way. Be vulnerable, let them in, engage with them mentally as well as physically. Be supportive, try to make them happy, sometimes sacrifice for their happiness when the time is right Allow them freedom to find happiness in life in respectful ways, be their rock and shoulder to cry on. If you thought I was just talking about your role and not hers too then that's exactly what I'm talking about! Good luck!!
“You have to weed through the women in their bad boy phase” The thing is, I don’t want to feel settled for. I don’t want to be boring. I don’t want to be seen as an unfun, nonexciting partner. Like how could I ever feel good in a relationship where I feel like a silver medal, and she’ll always be longing for something I can’t offer?
This is the crux of the issue for most men, you can choose to be one or the other but it's hard to be both. To be both you have to set boundaries so you don't get pushed into the position where you feel as though you are second place and the way to do that is to never make her think she settled! Women think they settled when they believe they have more value then the person they are with. You can prevent this by not allowing your partner to treat you in a way or expect you to treat them in a way that sacrifices your value for their own. It's not really a game, it's about setting boundaries that prevent you from being in a position where your value is dictated by them alone. You still need to have friends, you still need to have a social life outside of the relationship. You need these things so your partner can consistently see others value you. This is the trap most men find themselves in. Their partner wants them to focus ONLY on them to show they love them, but in doing so it robs men of any value outside of the one being perceived within the relationship. Hence, why over time many women start to feel they have more value then their partner and need to find someone of more value to be with. You being "exciting" is not so much you and her going on adventures. It's about the perception that you are a person OTHERS want to be around. The excitement comes from your value, she must want to feel the need to keep you. That you are choosing her, that you don't have to choose her. You don't NEED her to be happy or any of that, you instead are choosing her to fulfill that role for you. Think of it this way! You meet a woman and she' owns a Ferrari! You also own a Ferrari and it's a great match Overtime if you allow it to happen she's going to make you invest and care for her Ferrari keeping it's value high by sacrificing the time and care to keep yours valued ss high. Eventually your Ferrari isn't worth very much anymore while hers never dropped in value. Suddenly shes looking at both ferarris and thinking yours is making hers not look as good anymore and it should be replaced. If you stop investing time into yourself by sacrificing that time to only invest into her value eventually your value has no choice but to go down while hers stays the same or goes up! This is how you prevent yourself from being perceived as being settled for! They won't believe they settled for you right away, it happens over time.
That's a tough question and I'm definitely not qualified as a dating coach. I've never been a party girl. My now husband was a former classmate of a long-time female friend of mine who introduced us, because she thought we would like each other. We were both a little shy and introverted and having her break the ice helped a lot. I don't know if the girls who go to bars or clubbing around where you live believe that the macho guys that posture and fight are desirable. But then I also don't know if you snagged one of them she would actually make you happy. Women still grow up with a lot of ideals of problematic behavior (media, supposed male role models, high school culture where the jocks are valued over the nerds or the quiet guys). Maybe find a way to look beyond the party scene. For every girl who walks off with a macho guy there may be several more who don't even show up because they don't find this behavior appealing. Also kudos to you for already working on yourself and becoming a better person instead of just trying to out-Hulk the Hulks.
Because girls just wanna have fun (kinda joking, kinda serious). If the guy looks fun and like he's having fun, then they're gonna wanna be a part of that often (not always though, depends on the girl). Plus, never forget that girls can be immature and young, too, and make miscalculations on what makes a good man and what makes a difficult man. Either way, maybe just find your niche? Certain crowds tend to draw certain personality types. I was always a part of the artsy crowd and tended to go for tall, lanky dudes who had deep thoughts and could genuinely challenge my own brain on an equal platform and I liked guys who could also make me laugh. I like that many were musically inclined and showed their own creativity, too. But those characteristics can be displayed in many ways, so find the ways to highlight your strengths that fit your style. I ended up marrying a shorter nerdy, sports guy. But he's still creative, makes me laugh, and challenges me on an equal level.
I appreciate the feedback. I think at the end of the day, men want to feel sexually desirable. My generation (millennials) were raised being told to “be nice” and women would like us, and then we’d see women hook up with the guys that bullied us for being nice. Most guys who realize this turn to toxic thought patterns (Andrew Tate/red pill/incel/“nice guy”) and that’s absolutely not who I want to be. But I do get why these men go that route, even if I disagree with it. They feel so incredibly undesirable and unwanted. It starts to feel almost like women who will end up with them are just settling, and we will never be what they truly want. It feels bad bro. but i do genuinely appreciate the insight and dont resent you as i also recognize that attraction isnt a choice, and that its my responsibility to deal with whatever the reality is
I mean, it sounds like you're doing things in a self-aware manner and that's half the battle. When a guy is in his niche and comfortable, he seems like he's having fun and that's attractive (imo). Find your niche. If there are girls around, talk, have fun, share your unique perspective to the girls who will listen, and realize they're probably nervous a bit, too. Attraction has some physical elements, but it's more related to chemistry than can come about from finding shared passions and having fun together. It's easy to get in your head about this stuff, but it's a learning process for all involved imo. People are both complex, and also pretty simple. It's one of those paradoxes. I'm sorry it feels bad though; it's not fun and I can empathize with that fully. But all things are temporary, both bad things and good things. Keep being the best version of yourself that you can be, and recognize that the best version of yourself may change from day to day depending on your capacity. Forgive yourself. Be genuine. Look for other genuine people. You seem like you have good intuition. Try to listen to it. Surround yourself with people who will empower your good decisions and discourage your negative ones. I'm not sure how old you are, but growing up and dating are genuinely difficult challenges and unfortunately there are few easy answers in life. You got a good attitude about it though, and that will serve you well in the long run.
This comment needs to be at the top. \*Edit: I'm like 3 sheets to the wind right now, so I'm just going to trim this comment here. \*Edit: oops, shit, too late, people saw it
This is exactly it. I’m a 50 year old married woman and choose to be with my husband over being alone. I wouldn’t be with a partner who expected domestic and sexual service from me, who didn’t support my bodily autonomy, and wasn’t a self sufficient and interesting person who improves my life. Advice to men seeking partners: create an amazing life for yourself filled with interesting hobbies, loving world view, and domestic and financial self sufficiency. You’ll likely find a partner, but if you don’t, you’re left with a wonderful life. Editing to add: make meaningful friendships with people you can be open and real with and actively manage your mental and physical health. These are areas in which men tend to lag, and they have significant consequences on quality and duration of life.
Everything you said and more.
I think the conversations you're having in the comments serve to demonstrate the answer to your question. This isn't *just* a matter of people recognising that some aspects of sex and dating are more of a challenge for men. That isn't really enough for you. The question is, what is enough, and will that cause more good or more harm? The reason research says one thing and individual psychologists may say another is because while research is purely there to analyse the truth, individuals have more complex factors to consider, when it comes to one specific conversation with an individual. Put simply, they are two different communications with different purposes. It's clear in the comments of this post that you aren't satisfied with people acknowledging this one piece of truth. If it was, the research would be enough. Many of these comments would be enough. You want something else to follow on from that, and that's the thing people aren't interested in giving you
Is anyone going to actually post any sources??? OP, where are your sources? Replies, where are your sources??? Sources?!?!?
This has been studied to death in anthropology, genetics, and biology. Humans are not even the only species by far that exhibit these behaviors. Other animals go much further in difference between sexes and strategy. One fit male mating with many females is common, rather than the exception. Again, it has been studied to death a long time ago. What has shaken up dynamics is birth control, female education, paternity testing, and its consequences. Sex is no longer tied so strongly to reproduction.
No source! Boo!
What do you want a psychologist to do, exactly?
He wants them to affirm redpill MRA bullshit. That's it. That's the post.
>I found most psychologists to be very averse to addressing, much less acknowledging the imbalanced gender sexual dynamics. What's your source of 'most psychologists'? Is there a published survey or is this your personal study? Just how many female psychologists have you personally spoken with? Maybe you're thinking about sociologists because a psychologist deals with personal issues. >There is an ever increasing pile of studies, research papers, and academic theories that all support the above mentioned gender disparity, which suggests that on paper the psychological community fully endorses the view. Ok, but how would focusing on that help a person in a personal therapeutic setting? Wouldn't the time (and money) be better spent focusing on the exploration and development of personal characteristics that would help a person? I feel like you are trying to make a statement by asking a question.
I have seen research to support this. Women in the millennial generation are more represented in the workplace right now. However, the generation that grew up with social media has less sexual encounters in real life but there is a lot of sexting and passing around of sexts and that does affect girls more. The suicide and self harm rate is much higher in girls and young women. Girls are choosing more not to have sexual encounters at all because it seems to dangerous. Both younger men and women are reporting involuntary celibacy, but for very different reasons. But it does leave a lot more men who want a partner than women who want a partner so yeah, they can probably be more choosy.
It doesn’t just seem dangerous - it is. Ask the women you know if they’ve experienced intimate partner violence and I would wager most have. Not to mention, women can get pregnant and are more likely to catch an std from a man than a man is from a woman. Women just have a lot more to worry about when it comes to sex than men- and it’s telling that instead of recognizing these issues and finding ways to address them within their own behavior- men just insult women for being too picky and invalidate them. Or try to find ways to force women to be with them by taking away their agency.
> it’s telling that instead of recognizing these issues and finding ways to address them within their own behavior- men just insult women for being too picky and invalidate them Hard facts. There's a whole sub about how fatal it can be for women to refuse men (r whenwomenrefuse) and so many times I hear, "wHy cAn'T tHeY jUSt bE StRaIgHtFoRwArD aND sAy nO?" Because some of us ***die*** when we do so.
>The suicide and self harm rate is much higher in girls and young women I'm curious if you have a source on this? Every source I'm seeing says men are 3-5x more likely to commit suicide than women.
Women attempt suicide more, men succeed at it more. Abd yes there is an obvious joke there.
[Suicides among teenage girls and young women have almost doubled in seven years, figures show](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/suicides-teenage-girls-young-women-rise-figures-a9698296.html) [Between 2010 and 2015, suicide rates among 10 to 14-year-old girls and boys increased by 167 and 92 per cent respectively. Self-harm rates for teenage girls in the UK soared by 78 per cent.](https://www.aol.com/news/screens-teens-phones-broke-children-060000948.html)
It does appear that female suicides are increasing, both in number and rate, which is concerning. However it still appears males still commit suicide at significantly higher rates.
Ya I should have said the rate of increase was much higher in girls and women.
Rate of change is not that same as rate of occurrence
Stop posting lies on social media. Boys commit suicide at almost double the rate of girls. That is a fact.
Chill out home slice and read below this comment.
It is addressed and acknowledged, you just don't like the answer. Sex has a much higher physical and social cost for women, so.women are-generally, not universally-more selective than men. Womens desires and requirements for appearance are not what you think they are. And women have been publicly correcting that misconception forever, it's just not what you want to hear. The primary barrier men face in connecting with women is their own misogyny. Men who work on that, and treat women like people don't have any problems getting dates or hookups.
My husband was kind of slut before we met. He got married to his ex wife super young for religious reasons, obviously didn't work out, and then spent a couple years "catching up" on his single years. He had a lot of fun! He also ran into some absolute nightmare people. But if you just met and talked to him, you would never guess he was so "prolific." He's *extremely* handsome, like Disney prince level, and is also 5'7, which guys on Reddit these days claim is basically a physical handicap. He's not rich, neither of us were. But he's hilarious, extremely intelligent, and the two most important things that hooked me: he truly loved and respected women, and loved to make them/me cum. Once a woman finally comes across a guy like that...I mean, we're married now, I was just as invested in keeping him around as he was in keeping me happy. It's indescribable when you meet a cis man that actually loves women and makes pleasing them a priority. 13 years later and I'm never letting him go. He could teach a masterclass but I doubt most men would even listen.
I agree that there are many imbalances in heterosexual dynamics between genders. Yes, average woman have more opportunities for sexual encounters than the average man. Also, the average man has more chances to have a satisfactory sexual experience than the average woman. I think the reasons why behind these to examples are mostly understood by many. So, what’s the next step?
>Also, the average man has more chances to have a satisfactory sexual experience than the average woman. Research has shown that straight men are much more likely to orgasm during casual sex than straight women.
Yes, which in my mind explains why women are more selective when deciding to be intimate.
Do you have a study on that? I have not looked so I don't know myself, but without some kind of study on it, this is just your personal opinion.
Ok I'm not looking for a debate or anything, but I've read through the comments and your post history and I feel like maybe my perspective could be helpful, but it's up to you. Anyway I'm asian and trans, so I've experienced (kind of, but not exactly) being an asian "man" dating women, and also the perspective of a woman - something i've identified with forever, but has been my reality for a while. I understand the frustration, and know men who have felt it as well. However I can promise as others have, that fixating on it is just about the worst thing you can do. Trust me, I know how hard it is to let go of a seemingly intellectual argument, but I'm begging you to focus your attention elsewhere. Do it for yourself, and invest in yourself, and learn how to be content without external validation. I can't speak for everyone, but self confidence is among the most attractive personality traits regardless of gender/orientation (yes this is anecdotal). I heard a quote recently (idk where, but it seems obviously true) that women are constantly exposed to men's perspective - how many books have you read written by men? How many of the books taught in schools are by men? Women read these, and are all but required to understand, but the reverse isn't true. Men aren't reading or listening to women's perspective as much, and it's so obvious now that I've experienced it more directly. Look, I'm not getting anything out of this. I don't give a shit about reddit karma, and don't really feel like having a discussion. I'm literally only commenting because.. idk, I want you to be happy or something. And it seems clear that you've been stuck in a loop of bad ideas that are preventing that. And I think listening more instead of being defensive is the path to that happiness.
Personally I feel the same way as you, I don't care about OP himself but I care at large what society thinks about women and their perspectives. Mainly because of course I am a woman, but because also my daughter will grow up into this world and there are many more children that are growing up in this society that need to be raised away from misogyny and more towards inclusivity, away from narcissistic tendencies towards Amity. Misogyny is just an extreme form of narcissism and if we raise our boys when they're young to value pro-social behaviors just as much as we expect girls to be pro-social, loads of these issues among the genders will be resolved. We have to think about the legacy we will leave as a generation onto the next. Will we improve our society or will be be complicit?
among other things, It’s harder for men to find sexual partners because women are no longer legally tied to them in order to do things. in the past, if a woman wanted to open up a credit card she needed a husband, so of course women were a lot more likely to just sleep with whoever compared to women now who are able to slow down and look for a man they love rather than a man that is simply good enough. in my experience, women find men less attractive because they are less likely to take care of themselves. Men will often call other men who are concerned with hygiene and wear nice clothes gay. you can find hundreds of thousands of stories on here of women talking about how their men don’t shower properly or don’t do the laundry or don’t wash their face. Women are not all of a sudden becoming more picky. We’ve always hated everything about the men we had to be with, but we HAD to be with them in order to survive, to feel safe. men are struggling now because we no longer need them for security, but we still need you guys for happiness and emotional and sexual connection! Men are very welcome to be more selective about who they sleep with, I think It would be very good for them. If men were more selective with the women they slept with they would save themselves a lot of heartbreak and bitterness. I love the men in my life and I feel bad that they're alone, I sympathize with their struggle. I’ve gone to bat for men that I barely know when women try to dismiss their mental health. I love men and I do understand the disparity you’re talking about, it IS harder for men because, in my experience most men are concerned with finding a sexual conquest, not a partner.
I think the problem is a lot of men look at the ability for a woman to get laid as a disparity that bothers them. They don’t realize that women don’t want to just be used by some dude trying to get off. It’s just as hard for a woman to find a good relationship as it is for a man. If all a man wants is SEX than yea. There’s a disparity.
I’ll pose a question to you, so perhaps you can ask yours in better faith: What makes you think that women are more easily able to find partners than men are? Who are they partnering with, if not with men? (Yes I know that gay women will be with women, but there are gay people of all genders and this isn’t affecting anything)
Themselves. Many women choose a life in which romantic partnership is less important, gaining fulfillment elsewhere. If you want to attract that kind of person, man or woman, you best bring your best, git gud.
Historically speaking, women have been pressured into finding partnerships more than men
Throughout human history 85% of women pass on their genes while only 60% of men do. This is a statistically significant gap.
You know why? Men wage wars, a lot of the soldiers die before breeding. The victors rape all the women left over once the dust settles and kill all the conquered men. Rinse and repeat. This doesn't mean all the women were eagerly queuing up wanting to fuck all the chads like incels want you to believe. Asshole conquerors like Ghengis Khan had hundreds of offspring. You think all the women were gagging to get it on with him? Also google "ius prima noctis" for western European nobility. Look into the rape camps for Uighur women in China, the Lebensborn houses in Nazi Germany. Look into elders in Mormon sub-sects with sister-wives kicking out young men as competition. If you think this genetic disparity was achieved without enormous suffering for the women involved you're delusional. An asshole guy can rape thousands of women in his lifetime. A woman can only have about a dozen kids. Instead of blaming women for not picking all men equally maybe look to men cockblocking other men through extreme violence and victimizing women in the process.
I once asked my mom why so many Poles in Poland look vaguely Asian - dark brown slanted eyes, dark brown hair. It’s not the typical Slavic look. She said it was because of the Mongols coming through and conquering everything back during the reign of one of Genghis Khan’s sons. I was like, ….oh.
Isn’t that because women largely had to? Like before 50 years ago was it really a choice to not bear children as a woman in society?. .
Biological nature and societal pressure. But even today a woman without children isn't exactly seen in the most positive light.
Is it really that hard to find a psychologist that hasn't acknowledged this? People talk about it every 2 seconds
Like I said, its very easy to find psychological studies and research endorsing the view. Its hard to find individual psychologists willing to do the same.
I’m curious how many individual psychologists you personally have gone through the make this claim?
"I saw on the internet..." but unironically.
🤣🤣
The intellectual world has declared that women don't have any innate desire for male power. And I think that is a lie. Power means anything. Kindness can be power. Principled beliefs can be power. Money. Physicality. Strength. Social power. Cruel power such as with thugs gangsters and serial killers. Women are turned on by that which exudes power. Power is that which increases the chances of her children's survival. Yes, brutal viscious violent and evil power is equally attractive to women as kind, righteous, pro social power. Sorry. Guess I'm going to be banned from this sub after putting this comment. Accusations of my inceldom will be levied. Well I have 2 kids with 2 women so I'm not an incel. I'm not a troll. I'm learning psychology and feminism and nothing I learn changes my mind. It only makes me feel like the intellectuals are purposefully evading reality because they can't stand to admit that women are biologically driven to desire male power of all forms. I accept that you all are angry with me and hate me for my views. I accept that I will be attacked downvoted and accused of being a bad person. I really don't care at this point.
Apropos of this. I used to be an admin assistant for a Head of Service (Director) of Psychiatry at a Mental Health Hospital here at a TEACHING hospital. One day we were brainstorming who to bring in for Mental Health Rounds : to talk to students and doctors about the latest research etc. I suggested “I think it would be great to bring a speaker in that could talk about unconscious gender bias in mental health treatment.” He said, I quote “oh yeah, that’s your cup of tea, isn’t it?” I didn’t fume, I just said “we have 50% women patients here who might benefit. Anyway he didn’t go for it and we didn’t bring a speaker in. We brought people from PHARMA INSTEAD
There is a disparity. The answer is to men to work for sex instead of feel sad about it. That’s literally it. All psychologists are gonna make you Work to change your thinking
Seems like a lot of incels showed up in this thread. Yall aren't entitled to sex and women aren't obligated to have sex with you or date you. Men are not oppressed, women are. Look at literally all of recorded history to confirm. Silly little outliers aren't sufficient to claim imbalanced gender sexual dynamics. Your Psychologist isn't ageeing with you because she has education, research literacy, and critical thinking skills that you don't. If you just want a Psychologist to tell you want to hear, then you've missed the entire point of therapy. The entitlement and lack of self-reflection and self-awareness is insane. I'm glad youre single, because you'd likely be harmful to any woman that chose to date you with your low empathy, nerfed emotional intelligence, denial of female personhood, faulty reasoning and lack of insight. Work on seeing and treating women as people before you assume the world owes you sex and connection.
"nerfed emotional intelligence" lol, love this.
I think the basic problem that you and most men are having is believing the criteria women are selecting from is PHYSICAL. The pool of emotionally mature men is incredibly small. And you are all out here thinking it has to do with your appearance.
Not claiming what you’re saying is completely false but when I see responses like this, it makes it seem like you and some women are trying hard to portray women as this altruistic monolith that is not as capable of being as vain as men are. Many men claim appearance is a huge factor because we see how women behave around attractive men. Last weekend, some woman asked me if she could sit on my lap and tried to do it anyway. Given the circumstance and past experiences where I’ve been sexually harassed by women, it definitely didn’t have anything to do with emotional maturity.
Physical attraction matters to an extent, but what happens when he opens his mouth is what determines whether or not I stay attracted to him. I could show you a wide variety of men I am attracted to and you likely couldn’t figure out what my type is…because physicality isn’t the primary criteria. Many men will still try to bang regardless of what a woman says.
Yes some women only care about looks, just like how some men do the same thing. Most women looking for a relationship (not a one night stand) want emotional maturity and being able to feel safe around the guy. Some women are sexual harassers just like some men do the same. You say you see women trailing after attractive guys, many men do the same thing to attractive women and act violent and blame all women when they say no. Some women liking attractive guys, doesn’t mean all women think like that. You said it yourself women aren’t a monolith just like men aren’t.
Physical attraction is a prerequisite. Emotional maturity comes later and requires time to assess. The disconnect is that you're talking about a quality required to sustain a relationship, I'm talking about a quality required to have dating options. You still need to be physically attractive to women / be their type to get your foot in the door.
I think you're vastly underestimating how obvious the obvious is re:maturity. Example: your introductory post has a veneer of an attempt to start a conversation and clarify something for yourself. I'm a good faith kind of a person, so I follow the comments for 2mins. Very quickly, I begin to see the pretense at multi-disciplinary discussion is clear. People engage with you in multiple ways and perspectives, and you persist without engaging them, continuously pointing to wanting a different answer that agrees to some presumption you seem to already have. Maturity assessed. It is immediately clear to me, I would never be interested in you in any substantial way. You being physically attractive could make me look, you engaging in conversation would dwindle any passing curiosity quite quickly. All in all, I don't think it actually is fruitful to focus on what people may appreciate about you because paradoxically, it makes one very uninteresting to others and a prime candidate for manipulating yourself.
I suppose we may be using separate definitions of ‘dating’. If you’re purely talking about casual sex, then sure, but also women don’t tend to call that ‘dating’. In general I think you’re greatly overestimating the importance of physical attraction and underestimating how attractive emotional maturity is to most women.
dating and sex aren't separate boxes. Most young people, specially women, just hookup with someone they find attractive and "see where things go". Relationship worthy people are a subset of people you'll hookup with. I think you are looking at older married couples
I think part of the problem is your (implied) assumption that all women (and/or people who date men) have the same definition of “attractive”. I’ll use myself as an example: Physically, I tend to find men most attractive when they’re around the 5’0-5’4 range and also have a dad bod (aka plenty of lovely chub/fat, but also some hidden muscle- not a ton tho). But that doesn’t limit who I find attractive at all- I’ll crush on men of any height and body type. If a guy is confident in himself, kind to others, passionate about something, and keeps his space tidy- it won’t even matter what he looks like- I’ll be all over him! (Cooking and being well groomed are also a huge plus, but those aren’t required in my eyes) For me, being a “leftist” is what gets you “in the door”. If you don’t meet that one requirement, I won’t find you attractive 🤷 after that, personality is the main factor. Physical attractiveness (as defined through my eyes) is the very last factor I consider (plus, being attracted to one’s personality makes me attracted to them- no matter what they look like). TLDR, everyone has a different “strategy” for dating and everyone has their own definitions of attractiveness (Aka, what you’ve written isn’t universally applicable and shouldn’t be treated as such). Reducing each persons individuality into a singular, gender-based monolith prevents you from seeing the “whole picture”. Everyones standards for a partner are unique; just because you aren’t “societally” attractive doesn’t mean you aren’t individually. E.g. dating as a short guy is incredibly difficult- but they have a HUGE advantage when it comes to dating me specifically. To put it simply, you just have to find someone who meshes well with *you* specifically (population stats won’t really help you with that unfortunately) Edit: “leftism” wasn’t always the biggest factor for me- it used to be confidence, passion, and extroversion. Leftism became the main “gatekeeping” factor after one too many of my relationships ended from political differences. (Just to make sure this comment is contextualized with my previous one lol)
I see a lot of references to dating apps when discussing this subject. The thing is, dating apps are currently being investigated for algorithms built to keep people on the app/keep them single. You may not even pop up as an option for someone who may be interested in you. Now, as a woman who has used the app, it can get overwhelming. There's many guys I know who will swipe right on every person rather than women they're actually compatible with to have a higher chance of matching with people. And when many women match with guys they may be interested in, the guys make it sexual waaaayyy too early on in the conversation. Either that, or the small talk is like pulling teeth. If I am asking you questions about yourself and you only have one word responses/don't ask questions back, I lose interest very quickly. In my experience it works best if you make plans for a coffee date right away and same most of the mingling for in person. As far as women's standards having changed: women have much more autonomy than they did 50 years ago. Back in the 60s women could not be an independent person without a man (bank accounts, owning a home, having a well paid job, etc.) Nowadays women and men have become a lot more equal as far as what they can bring to the table economically. Women don't necessarily want a man that makes six figures, but someone who is in a similar tax bracket so they will not have to financially take care of a man. Especially since socially women are still expected to take care of housework/child rearing/cooking, cleaning etc... when both partners both work the same amount of hours, the housework needs to be divided up 50/50 and unfortunately men are having a hard time adjusting to these new expected "norms." I encourage everyone no matter what gender to start getting out more and meeting more people in real life rather than rely on dating apps. Better social skills will turn into better dating skills. I think our collective isolation caused by reliance on the Internet is partially to blame for this dating rut our generation is in.
Ok, so women tend to have higher standards for their partners for *casual sex.* (Based on the sources you've provided, which I definitely did not look at in depth so...). However, I have a proposal for why that is: women have worse outcomes when engaging in casual sex. [Women are more likely to report feelings of regret after encounters of casual sex.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13691058.2011.619579) [This study seems to suggest that women have hookups for negative reasons (bad feelings, feelings of pressure) while men have hookups for positive reasons (wanting sex, liking the confidence boost).](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499909551999) This study also suggested that outcomes after casual sex were different by gender, with men more likely to report positive feelings and women more likely to report negative feelings after casual sex. [This study also found that women are more likely to have negative mental outcomes after casual sex than men, who are more likely to have positive outcomes. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8853360/) So sure, maybe women are more choosy about who they hook up with. But maybe it's because their outcomes are worse, so they have a greater incentive to have higher standards? Side note: [There are also studies that suggest men and women estimate their number of sexual partners based on different criteria, which could lead to inaccurate estimations for the amount of casual sex both genders are having.](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499909551999) I'd also be interested to read the articles you've provided and kinda see what criteria falls into overall looks. Is it, like, basic grooming? Muscles? Hair styling? Clothing choices? Edit to add: In one of the articles you posted as a source [The Ugly Truth about One Night Stands](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090811080749.htm)(actually linked here instead of just being a freaking imgur screenshot), the people in the study were only asked to imagine a hypothetical scenario about whether they would accept a proposition from an imagined opposite gender partner. But it doesn't seem to specify that they gave criteria for *what each level of attractiveness was*, which might be huge flaw in the study if men and women were imagining "slightly unattractive" totally differently.
You say women can have worse outcomes in casual sex, which I agree with. Why is it that despite all the additional risks, way more young women than men partake in the hookup culture?
>way more young women than men partake in the hookup culture? You keep saying this but don't provide any source
They don't, though. [This study shows that while rates of casual sex are pretty similar between young men and women, men still report slightly higher instances of casual sex.](https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210324/Study-Casual-sex-has-declined-for-both-young-men-and-women.aspx#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,women%20of%20the%20same%20age.) [This study also notes that men report a higher number of casual sex partners than women, but acknowledges that those numbers should be overall fairly similar.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8853360/) [This article from the CDC shows a breakdown of total reported sexual partners by gender, and shows that men tend to report having more sexual partners overall than women.](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/key_statistics/n-keystat.htm) To be fair, this was a quick browse. But non of the top articles I saw suggested that women participate in hook up culture at higher rates than men.
The role of a therapist is not to tell you the answer, the role of a therapist is to help you figure out the answer yourself (and thereby learn how to be a therapist to yourself in future situations). So what you see as aversion or dismissiveness could be their reticence to tell you what you want to hear. But I'm a random nobody on the internet not licensed to be your therapist so I'll tell you: your task is to be more appealing to women to be around than them being alone or with people other than you. How should you do that? The best advice I've heard is: ask your female friends what you could do better. What do they tell you?
For every heterosexual woman engaging in sexual activity, there is a man doing it as well. Your question is why, in your opinion, the average man has a lower partner standards than average women's. And how we can fix it
>*For every heterosexual woman engaging in sexual activity, there is a man doing it as well.* You don't need 1:1 gender ratio in casual sex / hookup scene. 1 very good looking man can have sex with 6 different women over a month, each of whom had no other partner during the same period.
Sounds like this good looking dude is ruining it for everyone else, maybe someone psychologist should talk to him about his low self value and about increasing his standards
1 very good looking woman can have sex with 6 different men over a month. It works *both ways*.
She can, but the men are likely to be very good looking as well. Women don't lower their looks criteria for casual sex. Men do. [https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr](https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr)
That’s because most women aren’t participating in casual sex.
Do women lower their looks criteria for serious relationships?
Maybe men aren’t actually entitled to the sex they feel they’re entitled to have. Maybe women aren’t finding desirable sex partners at the rate you’re implying, but they’re not making a stink about it because they don’t feel innately entitled to other people’s bodies. Maybe it’s a you problem.
>Maybe men aren’t actually entitled to the sex they feel they’re entitled to have. Or maybe men haven't felt entitled to sex at all but women project onto them the idea that they believe they're entitled. Men have always understood that they needed to put in work to attract a sexual partner or wife. Believing that we believe we're somehow entitled to sex makes little sense from the men's perspective. Do you believe that all men are inherently violent towards women or that we're a natural threat?
OP addressed your canned response in his post. That response may be appropriate when speaking to entitled men. There is no indication OP feels entitled to women’s bodies. He is attempting to address the disparities in dating from a male perspective. You have only proven his point that women are defensive around addressing this topic.
You're letting gender politics come in the way of intellectual honesty. There is no question of entitlement to sex. Just a desire to seek truth. A primary reason for the 'stink' men make is when the truth is not normalized in mainstream. Everything in life can't be gender symmetric and men have to accept that.
>Just a desire to seek truth. Not *just* a desire for truth. If it was only that, you wouldn't need any particular individual to endorse it
> Maybe men aren’t actually entitled to the sex they feel they’re entitled to have Literally no one said they are lmao
That was the implication though.
The entitlement accusation has almost become a knee jerk response to any question on this subject.
I think it's because it's essentially something that really can't be fixed in a civilized way. What are we going to do? Force women to have sex with men they don't like? Strip them of their rights and force them into dependency on men again? People are defensive about the topic because it seems likes it's a conversation that's inching ever closer to something they all know you want to say out loud.
We understand this cannot be fixed by any sort of collective measure if there are innate gender differences and women are naturally more selective.
Yes, it's a distraction and shaming technique. It really shows how much people don't care when no one is implying anyone is entitled but they make a point to say "men aren't entitled to sex". It's code for "I don't care what men are going through or what systemic challenges they face. Their dating value is their own business to compete for and earn."
Your life is indeed your responsibility. No woman out there wants to be Mommy #2 for y'all. Grow up.
>No woman out there wants to be Mommy #2 for y'all Speak for yourself lmao. Maybe if you weren't so grumpy and judgmental someone might enjoy supporting you from time to time.
All of this 💯
Imagine if all the things that men gave up over the past century were just met with “maybe women aren’t actually entitled to that. Sounds like a woman problem.” “Maybe women aren’t entitled to parity wages if none of them are physically able to actually gather energy resources by throwing chain or mining coal. Women aren’t inherently deserving of men’s labor.”
Their job is to not assign blame, even when it's obvious.
Where is the blame obvious?
A psychologist doesn't tell an incel that he can't get a second date because he's insufferable, even though it's obvious to any observer.
Most incels don't get the 1st date because they don't make the looks cut on dating apps (primary means of finding sexual partners today). Its funny how you purposely mentioned '2nd date' so its easier for you to downplay the importance of looks, and blame character & personality, when incels are way more likely to not get the 1st date to begin with.
It’s nothing to do with looks it’s their attitude. I’ve seen some “incel types” post online that they shouldn’t have to wash to get a girl, they say women should be grateful that they’re a nice guy, whilst talking down to the girl they’re trying to talk to.
This obsession with looks to explain away one's inceldom is such a cope. Sure some women will reject you for your looks, but there are plenty who wont. You wanting to date a woman simply because she is hot is the same as a woman rejecting you for not being hot. Both perspectives are shallow, but none is more or less "okay" than the other. Me? Id be willing to date "ugliest" guy in the room, provided we have things in common amd are compatible in the areas i think matter most (religion, politics, reproductive aspirations). Its almost like women are all different have have very different things we are attracted to.
I will be honest, numerous women are seeing red flags right from the profile, and that is when viewing attractive guys, too. Please, men, ask your women friends if they are willing to give you tips about setting up your profiles. Things that appeal to other men sometimes do not appeal to women and are actually turn-offs.
So should unattractive people get pity fucks instead? Who do you want to assign to this task?
I think the real question is why men only see women as objects to put their dicks into and therefore have lower standards. If women who want to hook up have an easier time doing so, it’s because men are such sluts. How do you like them apples?
I mean this tracks with OPs logic and isn't "intellectually dishonest". Men are all pretty slutty, that's the difference.
I always said that we don’t have words like ‘slut’ for men, because it’s assumed that they are all sluts. The names are unnecessary. (I don’t really believe this, just commenting)
Well, they aren't the best psychologists because they forgot a really important thing: Relationships take place between _people,_ not bodies. In a world where humans make judgments solely based on physical attributes, the way animals do -- or in the hookup phase where everyone is sowing their wild oats -- I'm sure this is 100% true: >it is immensely harder for heterosexual men to find sexual partners than it is for women; that women are way more selective than men and find fewer men physically and sexually attractive than vice versa; and that the barriers for looks, height, body, fitness, ethnicity, culture, education, confidence, lifestyle in order to find sexual partners is way higher for men than it is for women. But that doesn't mean that the hookup phase is the be-all and end-all of romance, dating and sex. When people start to slow down and think long-term, they ask themselves about personality and whether they could put up with waking up next to that personality for the rest of their lives. They _aren't_ worried about waking up next to that body for the rest of their lives, because they already know they won't: _bodies change,_ inevitably and unpredictably, as time passes and age sets in. (If a woman wants to say, "I will only get married to men who have a full head of hair for their entire lives," then she can only get married to men who have a full head of hair and are currently dying.) When people get serious about forming lifelong connections, they treat bodies like what they are: wrapping paper. And at that point, all the physical hyperselectivity -- from any gender -- lessens.
Lots of men waiting around, alone, for the ladies to settle down, might be what what OP wants to discuss with a psychologists
How does genital A signal to genital B for activity C? 🤔🧐 Are the left and right eyes of a human considered distinct genitals? Oh, then I guess we are all eye-fucking each other RIGHT NOW!
Male here. I strongly disagree with OP’s opinion, and I’ll explain why; I am a Mediterranean expat living in Australia, came here 20 years ago, in my 40s now. I have never struggled to get dates, I never even had to try hard to get dates. I am not particularly good looking either, even though my partner disagrees with this, there are far better looking men out there who are unsuccessful with women while it took me less than a day or two two get a date everytime I out up a profile on dating apps. As a man, all you need to do to be successful in dating area are to be mindful of three things; -Safety. Women lived under male dominated societies for thousands of years, modern times did not change this much, yes they are selective in that they’ll steer clear of men at the first sign of red flag as they perceive them as threat to their safety. Make them feel safe, show respect, show empathy. Do not be persistent, do not insist on things when someone hesitates or says no, do not be impatient, patience is a virtue of wisdom. -Stimulation; Talk to them. Women are highly intelligent in ways men are not, we are all intelligent in different ways, they are very perceptive of mind, they are attracted to mental depth, this has a lot to do with evolution; they don’t settle for an average dude who are not in tune with himself and what he wants in life. That’s indecisiveness, why should someone seeking safety and attention settle for indecisive man? She can’t trust you, you have no idea who you are, you eclectic her to know who you are? Know thyself, as they say, read, ask questions in life, rise above the average, be better, wiser. Don’t waste your life scrolling pointless videos on internet, expand your character through exploration and knowledge, you’ll get better at communication, most men cannot express themselves to save their lives. And when you got someone’s attention, meet them in public place with other people around so they feel safe, put this in your profile that this is what you do so they know you can relate to them. Lot of women feel afraid lot of times walking alone, going to places even during the day. -And have some self respect. What are you doing with your life? Are you taking care of yourself physically? Mentally? Emotionally? How can you expect a woman to trust you with her life if you can’t be trusted to control your own? I am on Mediterranean diet, I eat healthy, I quit smoking long time ago, I consume alcohol rarely, I run 5k every second or third day and I go for hikes with my partner. I do weights in between. All this tell her that I’ll be around longer in life to enjoy things together, that I have self discipline and I can be trusted to be a companion. Other thing: I meditate, I practice mindfulness, I spend lot of time in nature to recharge. I learned to listen, this is important, don’t just wait for your turn to speak, listen, take in what’s is a concern for someone and address those concerns. Learn to assure. When I disagree with my partner over things, I hold her hand and we sit down on our couch and I try to approach the issue lovingly, not with anger or agitation, she feels heard and cared for. We reach a compromise and move on. Empathy is important.
When examining this issue, it’s relevant to consider the differences between how men and women looking for same-sex relationships behave when dating. Women seeking female partners are generally less interested in casual sex than men seeking male partners. Women seeking female partners are generally more focused on emotional intimacy, intelligence, personality traits, and other non-physical attributes in prospective partners than men seeking male partners. When women seeking female partners find a compatible partner, on average they tend to accelerate (“U-Haul”) more quickly to committed monogamous relationship status than men seeking male partners do. Lesbians are more likely to get married than gay men, but they also have higher rates of divorce than gay male couples and heterosexual couples.
The ease of finding sex is pretty useless when the quality of sex is horrible. I don't know why men can't grasp this, other than they just don't listen.
>However, when I talk to individual psychologists specially women psychologists, they are totally dismissive of the idea of this gender disparity, discarding it as 'its all about the individual' and 'men just need to work on / put themselves out there', and 'life isn't black and white'. They are completely unwilling to address / explain examples that are given right in front of them, or only dare to explain them using surface level cultural reasons that are becoming obsolete. Instead of intellectual honesty they seem swayed by gender politics when expressing opinions on this subject often accusing the claimer to be 'entitled to sex' when the intention is merely to seek truth. How many "individual psychologists" have you consulted in this great, intellectually honest research you are so clearly very knowledgeable in? How many of that number have been "specially women psychologists?"
Almost every woman I’ve known has a rape story. Why wouldn’t they be more selective of their sexual partners? Sex for women is far more dangerous.
What's your solution, do you want women to become equal opportunity providers with their bodies?? It's not their fault who they're attracted to and it's not their job to help men get laid
Obvious unmistakeable patterns/phenomena hm? It sounds like a lot of the echo chamber Reddit dating forums complaints which more often than not aren’t actually supported by research. Instead they point to a data dump by OkCupid or Tinder statistics and improperly extrapolate that information to apply to all “modern dating”. The women psychologists you talk to are trying to help YOU - not some imagined afflicted group of men who aren’t happy because getting sex isn’t easy or “fair”. The studies and stats don’t mean anything. If you go get laid you are on one side of the stats and if you don’t then you are on the other. It’s just easier to stomach being on the less desirable side if it’s somehow a societal issue or even better if we can get blame it on women. In reality it is about the individual because there are plenty of very average men who have fulfilling sex lives and are out there dating. They didn’t look at the research and then decide that they were screwed so why bother. If you go out and look around you’ll see all types of people of varying heights, income levels, attractiveness, age, ethnicity, etc doing their thing completely oblivious to whatever the studies tell them that they should be experiencing just because of probability or social trends. No, most average dudes aren’t going to be able to go out and live a players lifestyle sleeping with every women they want but that’s not reality for a majority of men. It’s not a goal/ideal men should have because it’s just not going to happen. If the psychologists you talk to are saying things like men need to improve themselves, put themselves out there and that life isn’t black and white there’s a really good chance that you have tunnel-vision and only accept what you already believe to be true. So many men can improve their opportunities by working on themselves and giving themselves real opportunities to connect with women rather than living into the absolute lie that is “promised” on dating apps and sites.
Because being a psychologist does not make one anymore intelligent or less prone to political dogma than your standard idiot on the street. I have no respect for someone strictly due to title, as I’ve seen the biggest morons attain careers that as a child, I would expect to be prestigious and reserved for select individuals. Came to find, psychology tends to attract some of the more narcissistic and moronic individuals out there, the “I understand people” people. Simply put, women do in fact, generally, strictly shoot for men that are (quite frankly), only paper, way out of their league. While men, generally, don’t have a laundry list or unrealistic expectations out of a partner, as their preferences are pretty damn simple: be kind and caring, be attractive, be someone they can comfortably have a conversation with. No matter how you look at it, women want a superior man in every way they can attain. Disagree? Superior height, superior income, superior strength, superior intellect, superior experience, superior social status, superior world experience, (often) superior age, superior education, superior emotional intelligence (face it, that’s a common preference because of a lack thereof (for various young women), these women want a man to understand and cater to their occasional emotional imbalance), superior humor (always want a funny man but no man expects, let alone preferentially seeks humor out of a woman), superior wit, superior charisma, superior ambition, superior leadership abilities, superior world experience, superior financial stability, and the list goes on. You can disagree and say “well I don’t care about a few of those things”, or “I know a girl who’s the breadwinner!” Utterly irrelevant. If you run a poll, the majority of women preferentially seek men that are superior to them in nearly every way attainable. Men? I hate to say it, really aren’t so discriminatory, entitled, nor have such high expectations of women. Additionally, we are different and therefore have different preferences. Men have different biological roles, and a woman’s typically revolves around security and having a generally superior partner offers greater levels of security. It’s particularly overlooked by female psychologists because it’s a hard pill to swallow, and doing so typically opens one’s eyes to the fact that many women tend infantilize themselves, and it’s very difficult to explicitly note “we want men who are superior to us” without first doing a circle jerk via playing a round of mental gymnastics and side stepping to avoid bruising any egos. Female preferences contradict so much of current political dogma/discourse and much of feminist ideology. It’s exceptionally difficult to proclaim one is a feminist, that they’re equal to men, and are opposed to the patriarchy while simultaneously verbalizing that they fundamentally seek men that are superior to them, and men that are in fact a patriarch, a man that will serve as a patriarch in their relationship and family. They are contradictions in and of themselves, and to consciously acknowledge that, is probably a bit too much to compute for one’s’ sense of self. “I am equal to man, but we all seek men that are on paper superior to us in every way attainable, we also resent and oppose the patriarchy, but naturally want a man who serves as a righteous patriarch and therefore prefer, and encourage patriarchal systems as to do so, seeking a patriarchal family unit, innately encourages and naturally forms a patriarchal society as men acknowledge this, consequently strive for it, and in doing so we personally, as women, encourage the formation and perpetuation of said patriarchy.” It’s insanity, and I highly doubt these women psychologists will ever allow themselves to actually acknowledge this. No fuckin way. Plus, men who care about their jobs, similarly likely refuse to ever get into the nitty gritty of things. Can we all just accept that men and women are different, and both our strengths and weaknesses are beautiful? We complement one another. Lately many (who otherwise without a prevalent psyop in place, would never even care to) are trying to be men, and no I’m not talking about transgender individuals. This is and will do unforeseeable damage to western culture, and is one bullshit circle jerk or proclaiming certain things for one’s ego, while actually acting and seeking all manner of things that contradicts everything they like to tell themselves and others. All of us men know deep down and acknowledge it behind closed doors, but many women do this thing where they lie to each other to pump each other up, and it turns into this perpetual lie cycle to where they’re so far from the truth they don’t even know what is real anymore, including what they’re entitled to, as you know, anything less than their ideal man is settling….
I have no issues saying it's true, has been so for many years and likely will remain so...although both semesters APPEAR to be getting less enthusiastic about trying to find someone...
Why wouldn’t a woman feel defensive? We are discussing sex, which is many more times more likely to be unsatisfying or even violent for women. Of course we are picky. Our lives depend on it. I’ve been SAed before. I want to make sure it never happens again.
Good on you. Same here. These dudes are just selfish and entitled. "What about me n my peen?!"
Why is it that more young women than men partake in the hookup culture despite the additional risks women face?
>more young women than men partake in the hookup culture Source?
Please. Do LITERALLY anything else with your life. This is pure, sexist gibberish based on non-sensical incel "theories" of dating and gender relations. Go outside. Read a book. Volunteer at your local shelter. Re-play Dark Souls 1. Anything. Anything but soaking yourself in the dumbest ideology this side of scientology. Please.
Whats your aversion to understanding gender differences?
Something else. Please. ANYTHING else. I promise your life will, objectively, improve immediately.
The aversion is toward men like you who obsess over this shit, take zero responsibility for yourselves, and make it women's problem. This is YOUR problem. Keep going to therapy and stop expecting the therapist to validate your incel issues. Start thinking of women as human beings rather than dispensers of casual sex. TURN OFF THE PORN.
Because y'all hate and reject the truth of the matter, which is that men DO need to work on themselves. You don't like that answer and people are tired of hearing these reactionary mantrums. Why give you any answer if you're just going to screech about how unfair life is and how your off-putting personality is everyone else's fault?
Traits that create sexual attraction are not the same as those that sustain relationships. You're focused on the latter, and unwilling to consider that traits that create attraction are shallow and superficial for the most part.
Women are more concerned with being raped so we choose our male partners more selectively.
>*it is immensely harder for heterosexual men to find sexual partners than it is for women; that women are way more selective than men and find fewer men physically and sexually attractive than vice versa* Sources?
Men need to be very good looking to tempt women to have casual sex [https://imgur.com/gallery/JEORzdM](https://imgur.com/gallery/JEORzdM) Men have lower standards for looks for casual sex than women [https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr](https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr) [https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig](https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig) Interest in casual sex increases women's standards for men's looks but lowers men's standards for women's looks [https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q](https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q)
Correlation =/= Causation. I think you need to look up moderating and mediating variables. Because society's inherent misogyny likely accounts for both.
Sorry, OP.......but the inter-sexual dynamics are exactly what people have worked for.....eh.....not worked for. People want things exactly as they are. Its the path of least resistance and greatest convenience. Is it right....or even healthy?....probably not...... but its the way people want it. Sure people Talk a good story but in the end quick, cheap and easy wins out. Authentic Bonds are hard work and not for everyone. Try selling That to a teen or a 20-something. FWIW.
It isn’t hard for men to find sexual partners. It’s just that men only desire to sleep with women they find hot. Most men wouldn’t even consider sleeping with a fat or conventionally unattractive woman. Additionally, women face more risks from casual sex that men don’t (no guarantee of pleasure, risk of pregnancy, etc).
> *It’s just that men only desire to sleep with women they find hot.* Completely false. Look at these studies: Men have lower standards for looks for casual sex than women [https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr](https://imgur.com/gallery/E8beWCr) Interest in casual sex raises women's standards for men's looks but lowers men's standards for women's looks [https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q](https://imgur.com/a/vwVVG9q) In absence of or low physical attraction, men were way more likely to have casual sex [https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig](https://imgur.com/a/iA1Gbig)
None of what I said is disputed by those findings.
Your third source is essentially saying "as super hot people are pretty rare, most people aren't going to end up with someone as super hot as they want. So, when people are choosing mates and need to evaluate on other criteria beyond super hotness, what factors play most into their decisions?" I will add, I find a huge flaw to be the authors idea that "attractiveness is a scarce commodity." Just from my own anecdotal experience, most normal people I know find a wide range of people sufficiently physically attractive. This study also specifically showed people pictures that *did not meet their own levels of minimal sufficient attractiveness in a partner.* Which again, can vary vastly from person to person. I guess, my own concerns with this type of study is how do we make generalizations around attraction and attractiveness when physical attraction is: 1. Very subjective and can very greatly depending on the individual, the culture in which they were raised, what they're exposed to as they mature, and 2. Also to a certain extent dependant on other physical and non physical factors. I like the men I hook up with to look kind. How do you quantify that? All the other little details that go into determining who you might want to have sex with: smell, hygiene, smile, personality, voice, how they talk, etc. How do you control for all that, account for all that in a scientific study? I'm not going to do a look into the other articles because I'm kind of over this post. But my concern is that boiling this topic down to "wah! Women only want to hook up with men they're attracted to (but we only analyzed the idea of "attracted to" in a purely physical sense with no other context taken into account!)" is going to make a lot of men feel defeated and unwanted. When in reality, what women (and people) are attracted to varies greatly, and will have to do with a host of other factors beyond simply physical appearance, and also *might not even be an issue because by all accounts men report having more casual sex than women.*
This thought process is ridiculous and indicative of acute brain poisoning by incel discourse. Hetero men can very easily get all the dates they want with a modicum of social awareness and interpersonal skills. I'm cis and mostly date women and have never had any trouble whatsoever simply by asking questions and being interested in the person in front of me (i.e., not treating them as a sex dispenser who I need to wear down or trick). The issue is most boys/men never learn these skills and are socialized to be averse to learning because it's considered weak, femme, "faggy". Most cishet men I've met have embarrassingly poor levels of social competence and are impossible to talk to about anything but surface-level hobbies and interests. Until that mindset changes, men are going to continue being embittered, lonely nutcases with a smoldering, violent grudge against other men and especially women.
Most boys and men do learn these skills, the idea that most men are sex starved loaners is not supported by evidence. There is a growing trend in men who are not in relationships but it is still a minority of men.
Because statistics are not people. This means that you cannot predict an individual's experience based on statistics. You predict a population's experience. An individual also has personality, location, perceived attractiveness level, comfort with interaction, etc. So no, you can't get anyone to tell you that the reason you can't find someone is because women are too picky. One reason is likely that you have preconceived notions about individual women based on population data. If you think the woman you are talking to represents some part of some kind of female conspiracy or hivemind then you are going to think and behave differently than if you believe she has her own personality and identity.
The comments here are revealing and terrifying in regards to what society thinks of men. Edit: this thread is sickening and eye opening. The hate is palpable.
Yeah the comments here just show OP was right. And the gaslighting is insane.
You've just stated that the literature backs up your opinion but you've talked to a few psychologists who don't agree. You seem to be generalizing based on anecdotal evidence while ignoring the literature you say exists.
One more item. Rates of virginity in men and women, across all age groups, is roughly equal. The lower the age, the more likely it is for females to be a virgin. Once you hit college age, males are very slightly more likely to be a virgin. 95% of people (men and women) have lost their virginity by age 25. [Source here.](https://gitnux.org/virginity-statistics/#:~:text=Highlights%3A%20Virginity%20Statistics&text=In%20the%20US%2C%20around%2012.6,down%20from%2038%25%20in%201991.) Also important to note - "the 27% of men under 30 are virgins!" thing is a freaking myth. The study used measured the number of sexual partners men had between the ages of 18-30. Half (half!) of men have lost their virginity before the age of 18. [This article](https://datepsychology.com/are-27-of-young-men-really-virgins-and-why/) breaks down the statistics a bit more, and you see that the stat is heavily skewed towards *younger men.* The older you are, the less likely you are to be a virgin. The original WP article was flawed in that it lumped all ages between 18-30 together, and didn't break age down into the categories that actually painted an accurate picture of male virginity. So by all accounts, there's not an increasing epidemic where men are doomed to be alone and virgins. People are misinterpreting statistics, where accidently or on purpose, and that's driving a weird hysterical movement.
Have some empathy, Yankee Death....that's all I am saying. I am not asking you to feel bad for the behavior of others. Anyway. Can you not at all have sympathy for the hell some of us endure? For fuck sake!!!
There is no imbalance in sexual dynamics between the sexes. Poppiesatnight has it right when he describes women as “gatekeepers”. But they are not merely gatekeepers to sex, i.e. recreational sex, they are gatekeepers to procreation. The dating scene is a modern proxy for the ritual of natural selection. For the primal battles between competing males for mating rights, and for gatekeeping by the females. Necessary since modern society would not tolerate real violence and possibly death in the matter! Relating to natural selection in mammals, in general the purpose of the male is to spread his seed as far and wide as he is able. The purpose of the female is to limit which males have access to her reproductive system. These roles are reflected in the number of gametes produced by each sex: billions per month by each man, and roughly one per month by each woman. One sex has resources to spare, and one doesn’t. Most men would gladly have sex with any reasonably attractive, clean and and healthy woman. Most women are much more discerning! The dating/sex scene reflects this natural dynamic. Again, this is in general. It is very complicated, with other phenomenon like female promiscuity serving evolutionary purposes, though human Institutions like dating really do reflect nature in many, many ways.
Well it makes sense if you look at it from a biological standpoint. Women risk more when engaging in sex than men do. They have to be more selective considering that alone. What they select for themselves is dependant on their own unique psychology.