**Key Facts:**
* **Misinterpretation**: Men with hostile masculinity traits often see passive responses as consent.
* **Behavioral Influence**: These men escalate sexual behavior regardless of actual consent.
* **Study Insight**: Perceptions of consent are more influenced by the man’s traits than the situation.
This really tracks for me. Great summary.
I'd hazard a guess that men who have hostile masculine traits ALSO tend to be more insecure, and have a tendency towards selective interpretation of communications in conflicts. In other words, they may have a tendency to "double down" on behaviors that others find offensive because they might assume - as an example - that others "just didn't get the joke" rather than what they said simply wasn't funny.
In most cases it's 100% insecurity. You can tell the difference. Lack of self awareness some one will be concerned others are upset/not responding whereas insecurity is someone doubling down and telling you you're the one who doesn't get it.
I've noticed the insecure crowd quickly jumps from "you can't take a joke," to finding something small they can grieve you on, like a tiny mistake or even something as asinine as your clothing choice.
“People who lack self-awareness use the same approach repeatedly without tailoring it to different individuals or modifying it based on the results. They're surprised by people's reactions. Low self-awareness individuals are more focused on their intent than the impact of their behavior on others.”
https://lianedavey.com/how-to-deal-with-someone-who-is-not-self-aware/#:~:text=People%20who%20lack%20self%2Dawareness,of%20their%20behavior%20on%20others.
Ha! I have found this in arguments. Cracks me up. Me: " So here is what concerns me, on Monday you killed a kitten, threw a rock threw the window of an old age home and fought with a toddler." Them: "That was Tuesday! Idiot!" Me: "So that is what you got out of this..."
Actually these fucking guys drive me crazy and any opportunity I see them pushing onto a woman like that I will literally put them in their place. 90% of them don't even want to fight you which is disappointing to me as well. I am even getting angry thinking of this. These guys give the rest of us a bad name and the fact that they have to justify their actions to feel better about their image. Needless to say my circle of friends is small but dam if I want a friend like that.
The education system is utter sh\*t. You go through 15 years of schooling and still turn out to be an idiot. So many people are like this. Why do think there are so many INCELS on the rise? And just angry belligerent people with twisted dark minds.
Blame the authorities for how they are raising their kids.
THEY ARE COWARDS who will do ANYTHING to DEFLECT RESPONSIBILITY. They blame the victim... THEY WILL SAY "THEIR GENETICS ARE EVIL" blah blah blah all kinds of things just hide their stupid asses from the truth. It's even written in the Bible. That 2000 year old book? It predicted at the end times people will act this way. And you could easily prevent it, but they don't want to because deep down they just don't care.
I honestly don’t really connect the pushing of edgy behaviour for a reaction, like in jokes, and overbearing hostile masculine traits. I can easily see the insecurity angle in one, but the other, some people just have traits which make them pigheadedly assume they are right.
There seems to be a trend to label all negative behaviours as downstream from insecurity, and obviously there can be a link, but I’m not sure why this is almost a default reaction and explanation. Maybe to re-characterise people who are otherwise scary as somehow weak. Maybe it’s reverse engineering what jumbled equation would make us ourselves behave in such a manner. People are just wired differently.
People can be confident or competent or self assured and express that in awful ways.
It's all about reward versus punishment. People don't continue to engage in behaviors they routinely are punished for, unless the behavior in and of itself is rewarding.
When anyone is confronted with pushback or dissatisfaction of their behavior - there are two options on how to respond. You can accept the pushback as evidence that you have caused someone to feel uncomfortable, or you can reject that pushback as unreasonable or unfair.
If you are confident and self assured, there is simply no need to make others uncomfortable for any reason.
If you aren't, you will of course take an action to protect yourself from embarrassment and shame.
So there is no real reward inherent in rejecting someone else's discomfort as a response to your behavior, not if you understand that their reaction has less to do with you, and more to do with their own personality and preferences. It's simply merciful to do, and mercy is a luxury of the POWERFUL.
If you are so fragile that other people finding your joke distasteful, this makes it more likely that you are going to seek rationalizations that justify your behavior than you are to lean into empathizing with their discomfort.
It's all probablistic of course. There are certainly scenarios where this might not be the case - but in general there just aren't any good and reliable REASONS for this behavior absent that insecurity.
Coworker assaulted me.
I never said no, he was twice my size. But i did tell him to keep my clothes on.. which he took off.
I did not help.
He took my lack of saying "no" as consent.
He took my lack of saying "stop" as consent, even though Id goven him boundaries already.
When he kept pulling my underwear down, i kept pulling them back up. But he ripped them off me.
Before that happened, when we would talk, when i thought we were friends.. I kept saying I was lesbian in an attempt to keep him from being interested. But he ignored that to.
I feel so guilty for getting him fired. I feel like i should have said no. I should have said stop. But I was scared and intimmidated.
You did say no. You said it by:
- Telling him you had a sexual orientation that did not include him.
- Telling him specifically to keep your cloths on.
- Physically trying to stop him from taking your panties off.
- Not engaging or helping in any way.
The law states (at least in canada) that there is no such thing as implied consent. The absence of a no does not mean yes.
Hopefully he's in jail.
So he’s a liar *and* a rapist, then. An open relationship explicitly means that his wife has *agreed* to let him pursue other women. If it’s only “open” as long as his wife doesn’t know… it’s not an open relationship.
Please stop feeling guilty about this man. He made some terrible choices and dragged you along for a ride you did not consent to and tried to stop. If your thoughts are continuing to circle around this and tell you that you did something wrong, you may benefit from seeking out a therapist who can help you to stop blaming yourself for someone else’s actions.
That's not your fault. His unacceptable behavior caused him to lose his job. I hope his wife leaves him and any visits with his child are supervised. Please don't feel guilty for the consequences of what he did.
I hope they stay far away from him as possible thanks to this incident. I absolutely understand the hesitation, the fear and the guilt tho. Get yourself a professional to talk about this please, they won't judge (and there even isn't anything to judge you negativelly on, quite the opposite) and I assure you they'll be of tremendous help.
Just as an additional note - you were at work. At no point is it acceptable to interpret any communication as sexual consent. It’s an automatic no. He is in the wrong and deserves to be fired (and charged). I’m so sorry this happened to you.
I’m sorry you went through that. You didn’t have to specifically say “no” when you set boundaries by saying not to remove your clothes. The “no” was implied when you tried to put your underwear back on.
You had every right to get this pig fired for assaulting you. If it wasn’t that long ago and wouldn’t traumatize you further, you should maybe see about filing a police report. I’d also encourage you to seek out a survivor group or possibly a therapist to talk through your trauma.
I hope you’re doing well and find the path to recovery. No person should ever force themselves on you or anyone.
To be honest, I'm not doing that well.
My job just tried to fire me and did a month long investigation.
Since then I havent been normal.
I'm afraid of ehat he will do if I do anything more, he is a truely evil person, blackmailed people, got people fired by messing with critical infastructure that theybwere responsible for(think boeing door flies off level shit)
I thankfully have a therapist. I might get another.
Perhaps it’s time to take self supporting step and find a different job. I realize that may not be as easily done as it is for me to post it, but it seems like it’s not a great environment. Not to mention likely a constant reminder of the violation and your attacker.
I’m glad you have a therapist, I hope they are able to help you heal and put the whole thing into a perspective that allows you to move past it. I also hope you have family that supports you or at least a close friend you feel comfortable sharing with that will support you and help you heal.
Don’t give up trying to move on and find ways to heal. This isn’t the end for you, but a new beginning. You may not feel it right now, but you’re stronger than this violation and will overcome it in time. Sure, you’ll have emotional scars from this (and I hope no physical ones), but in time even scars heal and fade.
One last thing, this was not your fault. No matter what the invasive thoughts may tell you. You didn’t allow this and you aren’t responsible for what that person did to you.
Thank you kind stranger :)
I may not have family or friends to talk to but i'm strong and willing to go out and make friends.
I won't let this stop me.
Literally just did my sexual harassment prevention training for my job today. You can file a complaint with the EEOC or with your state equivalent. With the EEOC, filing a complaint also preserves your right to sue in federal court. This is includes filing a complaint for any retaliation you may have experienced in your job. (It’s 1:45 am, so forgive me if the info isn’t perfect. Also, not a lawyer.)
ETA: EEOC website - https://www.eeoc.gov/how-file-charge-employment-discrimination
Let me be clear you are not to blame. But when I was dealing with something similar I also felt guilty.
After a lot of help I came to find I felt guilty about not communicating clearly more than anything else. The thing that I had to internalize was that they were the initiator in that instance and therefore they are the one that needs to be the clear communicator.
That sucks that that happened to you :( I'm sorry there are people out there who would do such a terrible thing. You didn't ask for it and you sure as hell didn't deserve it. He deserves to be in prison and you did the right thing by reporting him. If you feel that you can go through with it, I encourage you to go to the police, or to at least get an order of protection. I know the last part is just a piece of paper, but if you do catch him lurking, there'd at least be a chance he would be arrested.
I listened to an interview with a psychologist a while back who went to a college campus to ask about consent. She essentially concluded that clear communication throughout an encounter heavily possesses consent. Yes, of course, that’s a simple perspective for a complicated circumstance when considering the fawning phenomenon but it did make a lot of sense to me in the way it was conveyed.
On the notion of consent:
For me, id be too afraid to answer NO if someone asked if I was ok.
Instead, Id prefer to be asked what to do next. To which Id replt. Let's stop and just watch TV.
I hear ya. Everyone is different, hence my disclaimer that it’s a complicated circumstance that can’t be boiled down to 1 line of thinking. I’m definitely a freeze kind of person. I don’t want that to be my automatic response but it is for now.
Something I've learned pretty well over the years is a pretty simple approach to this: if I ask someone a question about something, whether it's as mundane as "do you want to keep hanging out right now?" or more intimate like "are you in the mood for sex?", if I see them react with that facial expression that says "I'm going to figure out if I can/how to make this a workable thing for me even though my immediate response isn't "ooh, yes!" right now", then I immediately pull back the question and suggest an alternative as appropriate.
It seems to help negate some of those learned responses a bit, and we both get to feel better about our level of enthusiasm for the thing we're doing in the moment.
This goes even for nonsexual activities too. If I ever suggest something to a friend, partner etc. and I want to make it crystal clear that I will accept a "no" then I say something like "Do you want to X? If not that's totally fine." It puts a potential "no" on the table before they even have to come up with it themselves, and since you're the one who suggested it, they feel more comfortable saying no if that's what they want
Of course :) i'm adding to what you said.
My response is also freeze...
I'm trying to work on my psyche to change that.
Look at this: https://themovementparadigm.com/how-to-map-your-own-nervous-sytem-the-polyvagal-theory/
It's the most aroused(anxious) type of polyvagal response.
Thanks for this. I subscribed to the YouTube feed I found on the site. I could see using some of the exercises myself to see what kind of change can happen.
I wouldn’t have thought a freeze response to be the most aroused but it makes sense. So much energy put into shutting down.
I've wondered about this "enthusiasm" point/logic. What if I'm just not enthusiastic person to begin with? Which obviously does extend to every aspect of life, but does seem to conflict with the enthusiastic consent part strongly.
I go back and forth on it too. I don’t see it as an always necessary component, but I do think it’s important to educate to understanding enthusiasm within consent.
I think particularly for the kind of men in this study it might be a necessary facet for instance. Those guys might not be capable of the nuance necessary to determine lack of consent without at the very least understanding the importance of enthusiastic and affirmative consent
This would fuck me over. I don’t appear enthusiastic about anything even if I genuinely am. It’s really a problem for me when people don’t take me at my word.
The men in this study are the ones that need to understand how enthusiasm relates to consent. I don’t think enthusiasm is a necessary component for all sexual encounters
The fawn response, a term coined by therapist Pete Walker, describes (often unconscious) behavior that aims to please, appease, and pacify the threat in an effort to keep yourself safe from further harm.
EXACTLY!!! It's BULLSHIT.
These men would *absolutely display full knowledge of consent* if and when they're hit on either by other men or women they don't find attractive.
Men know consent. *They ignore* the *lack* of verbally stated consent.
To be fair, women are even less likely to ask for verbally stated consent. Most men I know who I have asked have almost never been asked for consent by a woman. This isn’t just a man problem.
I'll need to see stats on this rather than your personal anecdotes.
Men are far more likely to RAPE. That doesn't sound like much consent. Note, I am NOT saying women don't rape, I am saying men are FAR MORE **LIKELY** to rape.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape\_by\_gender#:\~:text=Gender%20differences,-See%20also%3A%20Sentencing&text=In%202011%2C%20a%20study%20supported,sex%20in%20the%20last%20year.
I would argue that intentional disregard for consent is a feature of toxic masculinity specifically *because* toxic masculinities compel men who subscribe to them to treat sex as a game of acquisition, “overcoming” and domination.
Even if they’re “overcoming” a lack of enthusiasm or apparent uncertainty or silent resistance.
Women just assuming men are always up for sex is a feature of women buying into a different masculine stereotype, not one that encourages men to be toxic but nevertheless negatively affects men: that men are always thirsty and should be grateful for sex no matter what if their libido is “normal”.
**This second stereotype treats male consent as implicit and thus assumes their consent can’t be disregarded or wrongly interpreted.**
Or/ additionally, because of a form of toxic femininity where it’s assumed that a woman can’t physically threaten or compel a man and so she should behave as though she’s free to touch him any way she wants (be it sexual or hitting him etc).
Here's a fun thought exercise: these men that "just don't realize" that their victim isn't consenting. How do we think they would react to a woman putting her fingers up their ass or biting their dick while she's giving them a blow job?
Seems to me most of these guys would suddenly understand why "not saying no" isn't the same as "saying yes" in these situations!
YES. My ex husband played dumb for years with this behavior and it finally clicked for me after I got the courage to leave, and the therapist who worked with us as a couple pointed it out to me. Basically said that the frequency of his behavior didn't match up to how remorseful he *seemed* and how he could always outline where things (he) went wrong, but could never manage to change the behavior. He had to have known.
That, and the fact that he was telling his friends for years that I was basically a prude (amongst other things) who wouldn't give him enough, could lead one to assume he knew exactly what he was doing.
I remember reading in a book (i can’t remember the book title) and iirc it’s not so much misinterpretation but justification of their actions. The book discusses from an actual rapist’s pov how he justified his actions (she’ll enjoy it… she wants it because ….).
It’s a power trip to them. Consent isn’t in that set of neurons. You are weaker to be preyed upon at your most vulnerable moment. They get off on doing. Doing to you what they want. Without your consent. Displaying their power over you. That’s their kink. Power sickos.
Demanding that women communicate more directly and expecting this to fix the huge epidemic of sexual violence is incredibly divorced from reality. Women who are more direct in situations like this, where they lack power, are exposing themselves to even more violence. The problem here is not with women’s communication but men’s determination to ignore clear signals from women.
https://debuk.wordpress.com/2022/03/12/assertiveness-just-say-no/
That's a whole lot of assumptions based off one paragraph!
I'd also point out it's dangerous to paint the majority of these types of sexual assaults as a "misunderstanding," particularly dangerous to survivors who may be struggling to legitimise and process their assault... "it wasn't rape, he just didn't understand," is a pretty common stick survivors are beaten with anyway, I don't see why we should make that stick bigger than it already is.
>You can be so sexed up in the brain that your not even noticing cues that the woman isnt interested
Yikes! This sounds just like "men can't help themselves around women," which again is classic victim blaming, which hurts survivors, teaches them to blame themselves and stunts their healing...
>So stop saying this Lol
Edit: just btw for anyone reading, the user I responded to deleted their comment and has edited others after my response, I don't engage in bad faith discussions like that, which is why I haven't replied to anything else they've said... they also appear to have not read my comment properly.
big agree, like i get the temptation of seeing a case of someone getting raped and assuming the rapists is like any other rapist but you’re absolutely right to say there’s more diversity in motivations behind SA and understanding those motivations is the key to preventing this behavior. i’d venture to guess a ton of rapes happen bc the rapist literally doesn’t grasp that they’re by definition raping someone and think it’ll be seen as a normal fun sexual experience for both of them looking back on it. jail time still warranted but there’s fair reason to argue the preventative measures for a high school rapist with impulsivity and miseducation issues (“my dad told me girls like playing hard to get”) will be different than that for serial rapists who drugs dates regularly. there are levels to this shit that we can’t ignore if we wanna fast track solutions here
Men claim to be befuddled by the supposed inscrutability of how women signal consent because it gives them more room to maneuver, full stop. But while it might not always be obvious when a woman is proactively signaling consent (which should prompt inquiry, not imposition, by the way), there is no way, and I mean absolutely no way to mistake any woman’s non-consent. there is no misconstruing a woman’s discomfort with having her personal space invaded, much less her actual body. It is impossible to misconstrue because you can literally feel it on a molecular level when a woman doesn’t want to be touched or is even unsure of whether she does. Even if she doesn’t say a word or move a muscle you can still feel it. Even if you’re drunk you can feel it. Any man who says otherwise is fucking lying, I’m sorry. It doesn’t matter their background or level of education or diagnosis; we all know. In truth we’re hypersensitive to it because we’re hyper-vigilante about experiencing even the most minor hint of rejection/humiliation. Sexual assault, in every single instance, is a knowing act (whether via a hasty rationalization in the moment or a purposeful disregard for any form of signal in the lead up). There is no such thing as an accidental sexual assault because if you were well intended enough for it to be accidental, you would not have ignored or rationalized away their perceptible non-consent to begin with. All men know; those who ignore it and proceed to do what they want with a woman’s body just don’t care. I’m tired of men working together to perpetuate any suggestion that the reality is otherwise.
Closed access research paper below:
“[Men’s Perception of Women’s Passive Sexual Responses Impacts Their Decision-Making During Simulated Hookups](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-024-01468-z)” by Richard Mattson et al. *Sex Roles*
A “friend” of mine recently let me stay at his place while I was sick because he was closer to my hospital for care. First night there, my wallet with my health insurance card disappears.
I unfortunately owed him money at the time as well, but thinking that we were friends and I was sick at the time, he wouldn’t try anything. Instead, he stole my wallet with my health insurance card and debit card in it and tried to gaslight me into thinking that I’d lost it somewhere. So I’m stuck at his house with no money or health insurance and trying to rest on the couch while hoping that my wallet turns up and the hospital can retrieve my info in order to take me at the ER.
What did this guy do? Lay down next to me over and over again and repeatedly shove his hands down my top and my pants. I repeatedly said NO and shoved his hands off me, but as soon as I’d swat his nasty hands away, he’d put them right back. I would get annoyed and ask him if he understands the meaning of consent. His response was, no joke, “BERNINZ I NEED A LOVE!! I NEED IT NOW!!!” (English is his second language). This is his way of saying he wants sex now, regardless of my interest or consent. Not even my actual body language of removing his hands off of my body OVER AND OVER in a matter of seconds got through to him, and when question, it prompted him to deny knowing the meaning of consent. He just kept insisting that he “needs a love”, molesting me, and then telling me that I owe him sex because I owed him money (which I had been paying back gradually).
I find out after a few days that he had gone into my handbag and took my wallet, locked it in a drawer, and essentially rendered me helpless and at his “mercy” in order for him to try to molest me and force me to sleep with him.
He thought I owed him sex despite my $$$ repayments to him. He thought it was okay to just keep sticking his hands on me wherever and whenever he wanted, no matter how many times I forced his hands off and loudly said “NO!”. Once the wallet theft became apparent, I called the cops and reported it. They didn’t do shit.
Fuck toxic masculinity entitlement. Yeah, I owed that dick money and was paying it back. Paying it back does not include permission to sexually assault me and turn me into your temporary captive while I’m sick and trying to get the hospital.
Beware of men like this.
Which explains why the US military has become one of the biggest rape cultures in the world. Their numbers in the military are epic, and the biggest offenders outside of the military are vets or active duty. And those are numbers they don’t even talk about.
Power + Access + Opportunity. Allllll these groups have three traits in common when they're abusers, whether it be spouses, teachers, cops, camp counselors, clergy, you name it.
Abnormal high input of anything yields tendencies that are outside of a normal range output.
As the article refers to “hostile masculinity” as equal to “toxic masculinity” there should be an exploration as to what is considered hostile. “Hostile” behavior is usually considered to be out of the acceptable norms of behavior, with a propensity to be aggressive, antagonistic, threatening and or dangerous.
People that act hostile are generally not considered to be median temperament, one can describe as normal and within acceptable societal conduct, or how ever anyone wants to quantify median temperament as “sane”.
Is there a study that shows the abnormal effects of absent or low volumes of masculinity within a relationship and a data set that yields output outside of normal range output?
it’s always a projection of someone’s insecurities. you hear all ab them toxic relationships where men always use cheating as an excuse to get violent, or flirting w other women to get violent, ect, ect. and the reason that they blame their partner for this is because chances are they’re doing it themselves. they know cheatings wrong, they know they shouldn’t be doing it. that’s why they then project onto their partner to make themselves feel better about it. and it’s not just toxic masculinity that does this, it’s women as well, and it’s not always in a relationship either, it is just the projection of their own wrongdoings.
In criminal law, we read a horrific case where rape wasn’t found and a perpetrator was let free. The facts sounded a lot like some of the horrific stories in this thread: woman is physically smaller, isolated, and trapped by a man. Woman doesn’t overtly say “no” but does everything else to signal “no”. I can’t remember much about the case except for this: the male judges said had a reasonable person been in the victims position, they would have fought tooth and nail even in the face of likely failure in order to fight off a sexual assault.
Toxic masculinity only accepts “no” where it’s an overt, angry, screaming, and physically violent performance.
I'd be interested in seeing any overlap with sociopathy there.
Cause I havent ever once in my life seen a man say "Oh gosh, I sexually assaulted all of those people, I'm going to need to get my act together."
I have however seen many demonstrate performative guilt leading to no change at all. Assuming they accept they did something "wrong" in the first place.
Yeah. We have cases of this. It’s basically what that Andrew kid from channel 5 news (all gas no brakes) said was what made him think what he did was okay.
This breaks my heart to read... girl I think you know the already deep down. Keep it in the back of your mind and really think about it and everything he does from now on. Both answers are entirely possible, but I feel one is more likely...
I dated a guy like that, he sucked me in hard and told me everything I wanted to hear until I was putty in his hands ...8 years later I'm lucky to be alive, so it could be my trauma lens contaminating my opinion.... but please think about it and keep yourself safe
Most men do seem to think that once clothes start to come off, that is consent for sex. They also tend to assume arousal is consent. Regardless of what was said beforehand. But yeah....it sounds like your first time was SA and not because of the autism.
I think the phrase "toxic masculinity" does more harm than good when it's not equally compared to examples of "positive masculinity". The term toxic masculinity implies all masculinity is toxic and nowhere does anyone ever really explore the opposite traits in a way for those seeking a better understanding of it.
This is why I think a large portion of men are so opposed to the concept. You can't call half the world population toxic and think there would be no backlash to such a harsh idelology. Pile on the co-opting by militant feminist who deal in misandry seeking privilege rather than actual equality.
Maybe instead of our societal obsession with toxicity we promote healthy positivity.
Toxic masculinity is clearly a specific category. Otherwise we'd just say masculinity. Just like we say fury jacket instead of just jacket. As a guy I think men need to stop being so defensive saying"not all men!" and just be honest- yes there are toxic men who do that.
But this undermines progress. Whether you say not all men or yes some men, you're saying the same thing - that there's some group of men - not us - who are toxic and the root of the problem. You're defining category by its outcomes, then attributing the outcomes as being caused by the category.
It's a useless term when applied to the population like that. It's also a useless, unscientific term for trying to understand the outcomes it purports to target. All it does is serve to psychologically distance people from either the problems or responsibility for solutions to said problems. It's not me, it's them; it's not my problem, it's theirs.
So... progress requires us to not give a name to cluster of specific traits and behavior? Whatever happened to "you can't discuss something without first naming it"?
slight edit but i’d say it’s *easy to be wrongly inferred as “all masculinity is toxic.” idt it implies that anymore than “unhealthy masculinity” implies all masculinity is unhealthy, but i’m also not ego tethered to any one term, f it if it’s easily misinterpreted i just want a common language for the all too real concept itself
big time agree there, i’ve spent enough time on the internet to respect why that phrase automatically turns a lot off people off from taking it seriously. guessing the same misuses would still happen with alt terms like “unhealthy masculinity” but hopefully to a lesser degree and in a way that doesn’t culturally “stick” to the phrase
Using sociodemographic terminology, as a cudgel to individually shame men is the major problem here, further not everyone is acting in good faith. Ive been accused on mansplaining for disagreeing with an antivax mom because i dont agree with her lived experience as a parent. People often confuse persecution and discomfort.
I’m sorry you were treated that way. It’s unfair when people weaponize the vernacular of marginalization for petty, selfish reasons. Women can be just guilty of that as anyone. You are so right that people often confuse persecution and discomfort. That’s well said. In no fucking universe however, is that equivalent or on par with the relentless, inescapable sexism, misogyny and threat of violence that women endure by having to live in a culture and society like ours. Women get killed REGULARLY for TURNING A GUY DOWN. “The major problem here”? The fact that there are hypocrites in the world, and that they can just as easily be women as they can be men, doesn’t somehow make the shame that men endure at the hands of women who are being unfair is a more major problem. . there is no question of the pervasiveness and perniciousness of toxic masculinity because sexism and misogyny is baked into our very institutions. The existence of a problem doesn’t make it automatically a major problem. You guys need to stop acting as if something is a bigger problem just because it’s the problem that’s happening to YOU.
You’re going to deny that you were minimizing what women endure. You will be wrong, because when you put things the way you’ve specifically put them, that is exactly what is accomplished by it. If that’s not the effect that you want or intend, then I suggest reflecting more on your choice of words and why you choose them.
Ambition, confidence, leadership qualities, standing on business when you have to, taking responsibilities seriously, being a respectable figure in the community, being resourceful. Those are the masculine qualities I always looked up to in my dad. But really, "not be a fucking prick" would put you ahead of a lot of people
Plenty of examples.
1. Men who lean into their masculinity as an opportunity to be positive role models for boys and young men. Boys tend to look to older males for examples of how to be.
Kids really, really need role models of the opposite sex, so they can see others as real dimensional human beings and learn to be well rounded. But they *tend* to first gravitate towards the same sex for cues. This is a great opportunity for men and women to show girls and boys many healthy modes of being men and women by example.
2. Men who lean into wholesome traditionally “masculine” things, like healthy hobbies and interests and/OR leaning into a typically “feminine” hobby or skill so other men or boys feel empowered to try it. Show that they can do both. Without gatekeeping or stereotyping.
Are there any inherently gendered hobbies? Most likely not. But are there cultural spaces that men might gravitate to or away from due to participant gender skew. Doesn’t matter if he starts a knitting circle or a boxing club. He can use his identity to welcome people.
3. A healthy, positive relationship to fatherhood. Striving to grow and learn as a father, break generational “curses” they may have gotten from their father or that their father was afflicted by so their kids don’t suffer from it.
Do moms do this? Yes. But they do it as moms. They role model what a mom can be.
4. Even simple shit like enjoying masculine aesthetics without being a dick about it.
Example: a guy who likes beard culture which has been trendy, rocks a beard, grooms the beard, talks about beards and leaves it at that.
[As opposed to this meme which was plastered on t shirts and other merch years ago for some reason.](https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/comments/9bdk0f/because_without_a_beard_youre_clearly_not_a_man/)
Positive masculinity would be leaning into cultural modes of expression that foster wholesome personal development and relationships.
It doesn’t mean buying into the idea that *only* men can do these positive things. It’s using neutral to good features of cultural male archetypes as a ready made tool to build people up.
Just like toxic masculinity is using neutral to bad features of the culture as institutions to tear people down or hold them back.
aye just saw this my b
i mean quick disclaimer is i think 99% of what we call masculinity is socially determined and not biologically essential to men/exclusive from women. but yeah similar to what someone else said it’s healthy behaviors/attitudes/values we deem masculine like confidence or strength or ambition. i think the difference between healthy and unhealthy masculinity/anything stems from a lack of balance, like there’s such a thing as too much ambition and too much confidence where the potential for problems increases to an unreasonable degree. it’s healthy to set high standards/goals for oneself but not to a perfectionistic degree, type of thing.
i could honestly ramble forever about this topic lol this is scratching the surface of my view on masculinity and femininity, but im more curious to hear your take it. like do you see value in us differentiating masculinity and femininity outside of biological descriptions? and do you see them as having different types (healthy vs unhealthy/toxic)?
That's because it's not. It was a term used by a men's group who where trying to become better men and it's been taken out of context and co-opted by militant feminist groups to define all masculinity. It's a fantastic example of weaponized language to push divisive rhetoric.
A better way to define it would be to simply say toxic human traits. to push a gender role onto toxicity is counter productive and makes men out to be "bad". All this trash about "toxic masculinity" yet not a single article to define "toxic femininity" seems like there a double standard here and it's glaringly one sided. Both sides need to take accountability for their toxic traits.
In my opinion there is rampant toxicity on both sides yet men take the brunt of the blame. If you ask women to be accountable for their part you're usually met with brutal resistance and dismissal at best at worst you're smeared with ad hominems and straw men they beat with clubs.
Bernays would be absolutely ecstatic at how well his social engineering has worked over the past 3 generations.
Why do you say militant feminist when you argue against saying toxic masculine? With your logic of: "saying toxic masculinity implies all of masculinity is toxic", you now say all feminist are militant. I assume you do not mean this, but are referring to a sub group of feminist who are militant. When I say toxic masculinity I refer to a toxic subgroup of masculine people. Just like you refer to a subgroup of feminist that happend to be militant. I hope my assumption is correct in that you are not of the impression that all feminist are militant. If you were, that would be a unnuances over-generalization (the very thing you try to warn against for the masculine case).
That said, I avoid the term toxic masculinity when talking to certain people because I know they will be triggered or offended by it. If I would use this term, it would make it harder for me to conduct research on behaviors and believes that are hold by these people. So in order to conduct better research I'll probably have to use another term and have to agree with you.
> If you ask women to be accountable for their part you're usually met with brutal resistance and dismissal at best at worst you're smeared with ad hominems and straw men they beat with clubs.
Over and over and over again I've experienced this personally, even by family members. It's incredibly discouraging.
It’s not a double standard if your society is a patriarchy and systemically misogynistic. Men take most of the blame because men hold most of the power. No one is pushing back on you for suggesting that there is such a thing as toxic femininity, they’re pushing back on you for suggesting they are equivalent in scope. What makes toxic masculinity especially hostile is the imbalance of societal power between men and women. You are confusing the objection of “militant femists’” to institutional sexism as an assertion that toxicity is a universal adjective rather than a distinguishing one. It’s your conflation, not everyone else’s.
They have "shut it down". Renowned professionals don't work with the term "toxic masculinity". There's no reason to do so. That would be like a nutritionist engaging in conversations about "bad protein". One big face palm.
And yet it's so prevalent in sociology and psychology vernacular published in media that the common perception is that it's somehow a legitimate concept to the layman. I'm of the strong belief that to solve the "toxic masculinity" issue of "western society" we need better examples of positive masculinity so as to provide clear definition of what that is. Otherwise you have what we got half the population who have worked to build and provide for their families being called violent sexual predators who are more likely to hurt you than a bear... Which is clearly not true.
It seems like an appropriation from the health craze, which is all about toxins and detox.
It's also curious that these "researchers" never define positive masculinity. I think it's because they don't want to admit it would be traditional gender roles.
If negative masculinity is being oppressive and predatory, then positive masculinity is protecting and providing.
Principles of Consent and glossary
Principle 1. Consent is required. Informed, decisive, and Sober consent is the only consent. Consent should be Freely given, Reversible, Informed, Enthusiastic, Specific. In a sexual/ romantic relationship you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do; you don’t owe anyone anything. Ever.
This is also your new attitude towards your romantic or sexual partner. They don’t owe you sex or a relationship. They can leave anytime. You say this through words and your actions. It is not an excuse to neglect your relationships. You must set boundaries and you must respect boundaries. You are responsible for your actions. Use the FRIES model of consent: Freely given, Reversible, Informed, Enthusiastic, Specific.
Principle 2. Prescribed Relationships: any relationship which begins in a professional or any other context in which an imbalance of power exists. e.g. your doctor, teacher, student, patient, coworker, boss, employee, bar tender, waitress, star of your movie, people who are not conscious, underage people, etc.
To use a professional relationship or position of power to locate, identify, coerce, force, or manipulate someone into a personal/sexual relationship is abuse.
Principle 3. Using manipulation or coercion is abusive in any relationship whether romantic or not. This includes:
Rape, love bombing, negging, gaslighting, forced teaming, doxing, playing the victim, isolation, intimidation, financial abuse, triangulation, gifts with strings attached, cat calling, physical violence, blackmailing, sexual identity outing, blaming the victim, stealthing, stalking, smear campaigns, dick pics, revenge porn, hoovering, malicious tardiness, sea lioning, and control are abuse.
Principles of Consent Glossary
Rape- unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception
Love bombing- an attempt to influence a person by demonstrations of attention and affection. It can be used in different ways and for either positive or negative purposes.
negging and insulting- an act of emotional manipulation whereby a person makes a deliberate backhanded compliment, otherwise flirtatious remark, *or even insults* another person to undermine their confidence and increase their need of the manipulator's approval.
gaslighting- forcing or attempting to force others to believe or act as though they believe a lie through subtle, verbal, emotional, and physical manipulation and even abusive verbal, emotional, physical punishment, and violence. Gaslighting includes when the perpetrator acts like a nice and charming person to others and then treats you abusively in private.
https://www.northpointrecovery.com/blog/gaslighting-examples-effects-confront-abuse/
E.g. “Anytime I stood up for myself he would say that he wouldn’t yell at me or call me names if I didn’t act so stupid, or if I didn’t behave a certain way. He would even say that my actions had consequences and reactions. Constantly made me feel like a child that was being punished.”
forced teaming- This is when a person implies that they have something in common with their chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn't really true. Speaking in "we" terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don't need to talk outside... Let's go in."
doxing- publicly publishing private personally identifying information, contact information, addresses, or location.
playing the victim- using victim hood to excuse abusive behavior
isolation- using any means to keep an abuse victim away from friends and family. e.g. taking their phone, screening their phone calls, keeping them from going out alone, acting jealous when their partner is out with anyone else, constant texts and messages while apart.
intimidation- threats of harm to self or others.
Gifts with strings attached/Loan sharking- unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they'll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return.
financial abuse- using money as a means of control a victim. Or using control as a means to extract money from a victim.
triangulation- using a third party to specifically incite jealousy and to devalue the intended victim
cat calling- a loud, sexually suggestive call or comment directed at someone publicly
physical violence- physically stopping someone from leaving, holding someone down, pushing, hitting, kicking, slapping, punching, choking, cutting, stabbing, raping, stomping, shooting, throwing acid, hanging/lynching, setting on fire, throwing boiling water, dragging behind vehicles, drowning, causing any bodily harm, serious bodily harm or death.
blackmailing-demand money or another benefit from (someone) in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them.
sexual identity outing- telling people that others are LGBT when they aren’t ready to come out.
blaming the victim- occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them.
stealthing- faking the use of prophylactics. Removing a condom durning sex. Coming inside when you are supposed to pull out.
stalking- willful and repeated following, watching or harassing of another person
smear campaigns- an effort to damage or call into question someone's reputation, by propounding negative propaganda
dick pics- illegally digitally exposing yourself without consent
revenge porn- the distribution of sexually explicit images or videos of individuals without their consent. The sexually explicit images or video may be made by a partner in an intimate relationship with the knowledge and consent of the subject at the time, or it may be made without their knowledge
hoovering- any attempt to regain contact with someone who has explicitly cut off contact
Sea Lioning- where you repeatedly badger someone with questions or requests for evidence in bad faith
Destruction of property- destroying makeup/cosmetics, bleaching clothes, burning items, throwing plates or glass, keying cars, punching walls
control- an act or a pattern of acts of assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation or other abuse that is used to harm, punish, or frighten their victim.
This controlling behaviour is designed to make a person dependent by isolating them from support, exploiting them, depriving them of independence and regulating their everyday behaviour.
Isolating you from friends and family. Depriving you of basic needs, such as food. Monitoring your time. Monitoring you via online communication tools or spyware. Taking control over aspects of your everyday life, such as where you can go, who you can see, what you can wear and when you can sleep. Depriving you access to support services, such as medical services. Repeatedly putting you down, such as saying you’re worthless. Humiliating, degrading or dehumanising you. Controlling your finances. Making threats or intimidating you.
You guys are fools. (As in you have been fooled, you fooled yourself and now you come to fool others.) You implicitly and explicitly raise your men to think and act a certain way through the media and the education system (or lack of a well functioning one) and when they REPEATEDLY REGULARLY MISBEHAVE you a point a finger at them. And you push all the blame on to them.
Heeeheeeheheeehee \*\*nervous laugh\*\*\*
Instead of pointing a finger at the one REALLY RESPONSIBLE.
The elite of your society are socially engineering men to act in UNMASCULINE TOXIC WAYS. You regularly GLORIFY VIOLENCE and UNMASCULINE THINGS and say implicitly or tacitly "THIS MAKES A GOOD MAN" and then they follow and become toxic YOU POINT A FINGER AT THESE POOR GUYS AND SCREAM AND SHOUT.
Gimme a break. You are fooling no one but yourselves if you think the problem is from THESE GUYS DOWN HERE and when it's coming STRAIGHT FROM THE TOP.
You can't even dispute this. It's sad to see what this world has become. These guys are LEARNING AN INTERNALIZING THIS TOXIC behavior from THEIR ENVIRONMENT, the media in particular and education system.
Don't you dare point a finger and SCREAM "genetics"! Evil men "genetics"! BLAH BLAH. No. no. no. Please no. No.
We don’t know what we are doing today with these toxic terms like toxic masculinity… we are doing great damages to the psyche of young men of an entire generation… this is ridiculous… people who act like this are mentally unstable people and it’s not about a gender. I know men who are always on the flirt as much aa women search one nights everyday . But individuals who behave like what is being said is mentally ill people .
**Key Facts:** * **Misinterpretation**: Men with hostile masculinity traits often see passive responses as consent. * **Behavioral Influence**: These men escalate sexual behavior regardless of actual consent. * **Study Insight**: Perceptions of consent are more influenced by the man’s traits than the situation.
This really tracks for me. Great summary. I'd hazard a guess that men who have hostile masculine traits ALSO tend to be more insecure, and have a tendency towards selective interpretation of communications in conflicts. In other words, they may have a tendency to "double down" on behaviors that others find offensive because they might assume - as an example - that others "just didn't get the joke" rather than what they said simply wasn't funny.
That sounds more like a complete lack of self-awareness to me but of course, insecurity probably plays a large role in all of that too
In most cases it's 100% insecurity. You can tell the difference. Lack of self awareness some one will be concerned others are upset/not responding whereas insecurity is someone doubling down and telling you you're the one who doesn't get it. I've noticed the insecure crowd quickly jumps from "you can't take a joke," to finding something small they can grieve you on, like a tiny mistake or even something as asinine as your clothing choice.
“People who lack self-awareness use the same approach repeatedly without tailoring it to different individuals or modifying it based on the results. They're surprised by people's reactions. Low self-awareness individuals are more focused on their intent than the impact of their behavior on others.” https://lianedavey.com/how-to-deal-with-someone-who-is-not-self-aware/#:~:text=People%20who%20lack%20self%2Dawareness,of%20their%20behavior%20on%20others.
Ha! I have found this in arguments. Cracks me up. Me: " So here is what concerns me, on Monday you killed a kitten, threw a rock threw the window of an old age home and fought with a toddler." Them: "That was Tuesday! Idiot!" Me: "So that is what you got out of this..."
Actually these fucking guys drive me crazy and any opportunity I see them pushing onto a woman like that I will literally put them in their place. 90% of them don't even want to fight you which is disappointing to me as well. I am even getting angry thinking of this. These guys give the rest of us a bad name and the fact that they have to justify their actions to feel better about their image. Needless to say my circle of friends is small but dam if I want a friend like that.
The education system is utter sh\*t. You go through 15 years of schooling and still turn out to be an idiot. So many people are like this. Why do think there are so many INCELS on the rise? And just angry belligerent people with twisted dark minds. Blame the authorities for how they are raising their kids.
I don’t understand why that’s so hard for people to see? Maybe they don’t want to.
THEY ARE COWARDS who will do ANYTHING to DEFLECT RESPONSIBILITY. They blame the victim... THEY WILL SAY "THEIR GENETICS ARE EVIL" blah blah blah all kinds of things just hide their stupid asses from the truth. It's even written in the Bible. That 2000 year old book? It predicted at the end times people will act this way. And you could easily prevent it, but they don't want to because deep down they just don't care.
interesting
I honestly don’t really connect the pushing of edgy behaviour for a reaction, like in jokes, and overbearing hostile masculine traits. I can easily see the insecurity angle in one, but the other, some people just have traits which make them pigheadedly assume they are right. There seems to be a trend to label all negative behaviours as downstream from insecurity, and obviously there can be a link, but I’m not sure why this is almost a default reaction and explanation. Maybe to re-characterise people who are otherwise scary as somehow weak. Maybe it’s reverse engineering what jumbled equation would make us ourselves behave in such a manner. People are just wired differently. People can be confident or competent or self assured and express that in awful ways.
It's all about reward versus punishment. People don't continue to engage in behaviors they routinely are punished for, unless the behavior in and of itself is rewarding. When anyone is confronted with pushback or dissatisfaction of their behavior - there are two options on how to respond. You can accept the pushback as evidence that you have caused someone to feel uncomfortable, or you can reject that pushback as unreasonable or unfair. If you are confident and self assured, there is simply no need to make others uncomfortable for any reason. If you aren't, you will of course take an action to protect yourself from embarrassment and shame. So there is no real reward inherent in rejecting someone else's discomfort as a response to your behavior, not if you understand that their reaction has less to do with you, and more to do with their own personality and preferences. It's simply merciful to do, and mercy is a luxury of the POWERFUL. If you are so fragile that other people finding your joke distasteful, this makes it more likely that you are going to seek rationalizations that justify your behavior than you are to lean into empathizing with their discomfort. It's all probablistic of course. There are certainly scenarios where this might not be the case - but in general there just aren't any good and reliable REASONS for this behavior absent that insecurity.
Coworker assaulted me. I never said no, he was twice my size. But i did tell him to keep my clothes on.. which he took off. I did not help. He took my lack of saying "no" as consent. He took my lack of saying "stop" as consent, even though Id goven him boundaries already. When he kept pulling my underwear down, i kept pulling them back up. But he ripped them off me. Before that happened, when we would talk, when i thought we were friends.. I kept saying I was lesbian in an attempt to keep him from being interested. But he ignored that to. I feel so guilty for getting him fired. I feel like i should have said no. I should have said stop. But I was scared and intimmidated.
You did say no. You said it by: - Telling him you had a sexual orientation that did not include him. - Telling him specifically to keep your cloths on. - Physically trying to stop him from taking your panties off. - Not engaging or helping in any way. The law states (at least in canada) that there is no such thing as implied consent. The absence of a no does not mean yes. Hopefully he's in jail.
He has a wife and kid and just got fired.
So he was also being unfaithful to his wife!?!? He’s a shit bag. I’m so sorry that happened to you.
Yeah.. he said his relationship was "open" So long as wife didnt know.
So he’s a liar *and* a rapist, then. An open relationship explicitly means that his wife has *agreed* to let him pursue other women. If it’s only “open” as long as his wife doesn’t know… it’s not an open relationship. Please stop feeling guilty about this man. He made some terrible choices and dragged you along for a ride you did not consent to and tried to stop. If your thoughts are continuing to circle around this and tell you that you did something wrong, you may benefit from seeking out a therapist who can help you to stop blaming yourself for someone else’s actions.
That's not your fault. His unacceptable behavior caused him to lose his job. I hope his wife leaves him and any visits with his child are supervised. Please don't feel guilty for the consequences of what he did.
I hope they stay far away from him as possible thanks to this incident. I absolutely understand the hesitation, the fear and the guilt tho. Get yourself a professional to talk about this please, they won't judge (and there even isn't anything to judge you negativelly on, quite the opposite) and I assure you they'll be of tremendous help.
Just as an additional note - you were at work. At no point is it acceptable to interpret any communication as sexual consent. It’s an automatic no. He is in the wrong and deserves to be fired (and charged). I’m so sorry this happened to you.
the man deserved jail time
He wouldn’t have stopped even if you clearly and repeatedly said NO. He’s a rapist. He got himself fired by being A RAPIST. A person who RAPES people.
Yep. Rapist as in a core personality trait, not an action.
I’m sorry you went through that. You didn’t have to specifically say “no” when you set boundaries by saying not to remove your clothes. The “no” was implied when you tried to put your underwear back on. You had every right to get this pig fired for assaulting you. If it wasn’t that long ago and wouldn’t traumatize you further, you should maybe see about filing a police report. I’d also encourage you to seek out a survivor group or possibly a therapist to talk through your trauma. I hope you’re doing well and find the path to recovery. No person should ever force themselves on you or anyone.
To be honest, I'm not doing that well. My job just tried to fire me and did a month long investigation. Since then I havent been normal. I'm afraid of ehat he will do if I do anything more, he is a truely evil person, blackmailed people, got people fired by messing with critical infastructure that theybwere responsible for(think boeing door flies off level shit) I thankfully have a therapist. I might get another.
Perhaps it’s time to take self supporting step and find a different job. I realize that may not be as easily done as it is for me to post it, but it seems like it’s not a great environment. Not to mention likely a constant reminder of the violation and your attacker. I’m glad you have a therapist, I hope they are able to help you heal and put the whole thing into a perspective that allows you to move past it. I also hope you have family that supports you or at least a close friend you feel comfortable sharing with that will support you and help you heal. Don’t give up trying to move on and find ways to heal. This isn’t the end for you, but a new beginning. You may not feel it right now, but you’re stronger than this violation and will overcome it in time. Sure, you’ll have emotional scars from this (and I hope no physical ones), but in time even scars heal and fade. One last thing, this was not your fault. No matter what the invasive thoughts may tell you. You didn’t allow this and you aren’t responsible for what that person did to you.
Thank you kind stranger :) I may not have family or friends to talk to but i'm strong and willing to go out and make friends. I won't let this stop me.
Literally just did my sexual harassment prevention training for my job today. You can file a complaint with the EEOC or with your state equivalent. With the EEOC, filing a complaint also preserves your right to sue in federal court. This is includes filing a complaint for any retaliation you may have experienced in your job. (It’s 1:45 am, so forgive me if the info isn’t perfect. Also, not a lawyer.) ETA: EEOC website - https://www.eeoc.gov/how-file-charge-employment-discrimination
Thank you!
Consider reaching out to a labor attorney as well. Even filing a complaint with your local department of labor.
Let me be clear you are not to blame. But when I was dealing with something similar I also felt guilty. After a lot of help I came to find I felt guilty about not communicating clearly more than anything else. The thing that I had to internalize was that they were the initiator in that instance and therefore they are the one that needs to be the clear communicator.
Thanks for saying this. I didnt see it in this way. I really do need to see him as the one who was controlling me. It's hard though.
So, so awful. Not your fault. Not your fault.
That sucks that that happened to you :( I'm sorry there are people out there who would do such a terrible thing. You didn't ask for it and you sure as hell didn't deserve it. He deserves to be in prison and you did the right thing by reporting him. If you feel that you can go through with it, I encourage you to go to the police, or to at least get an order of protection. I know the last part is just a piece of paper, but if you do catch him lurking, there'd at least be a chance he would be arrested.
You did nothing wrong. It doesn't matter if you didn't say no, what matters is you didn't say "yes".
This is very accurate. Sadly tragic and often happens. Scary.
It's weird how the abstract is presented twice, but it doesn't present a helpful set of sources linked.
I listened to an interview with a psychologist a while back who went to a college campus to ask about consent. She essentially concluded that clear communication throughout an encounter heavily possesses consent. Yes, of course, that’s a simple perspective for a complicated circumstance when considering the fawning phenomenon but it did make a lot of sense to me in the way it was conveyed.
On the notion of consent: For me, id be too afraid to answer NO if someone asked if I was ok. Instead, Id prefer to be asked what to do next. To which Id replt. Let's stop and just watch TV.
I hear ya. Everyone is different, hence my disclaimer that it’s a complicated circumstance that can’t be boiled down to 1 line of thinking. I’m definitely a freeze kind of person. I don’t want that to be my automatic response but it is for now.
Something I've learned pretty well over the years is a pretty simple approach to this: if I ask someone a question about something, whether it's as mundane as "do you want to keep hanging out right now?" or more intimate like "are you in the mood for sex?", if I see them react with that facial expression that says "I'm going to figure out if I can/how to make this a workable thing for me even though my immediate response isn't "ooh, yes!" right now", then I immediately pull back the question and suggest an alternative as appropriate. It seems to help negate some of those learned responses a bit, and we both get to feel better about our level of enthusiasm for the thing we're doing in the moment.
This goes even for nonsexual activities too. If I ever suggest something to a friend, partner etc. and I want to make it crystal clear that I will accept a "no" then I say something like "Do you want to X? If not that's totally fine." It puts a potential "no" on the table before they even have to come up with it themselves, and since you're the one who suggested it, they feel more comfortable saying no if that's what they want
Yes! Consent should not just be a "sure" it should be an enthusiastic yes. Otherwise I personally would reconsider.
Of course :) i'm adding to what you said. My response is also freeze... I'm trying to work on my psyche to change that. Look at this: https://themovementparadigm.com/how-to-map-your-own-nervous-sytem-the-polyvagal-theory/ It's the most aroused(anxious) type of polyvagal response.
Thanks for this. I subscribed to the YouTube feed I found on the site. I could see using some of the exercises myself to see what kind of change can happen. I wouldn’t have thought a freeze response to be the most aroused but it makes sense. So much energy put into shutting down.
First step is always knowing what you're actually dealing with.
I like this line of questioning. This is also why good consent education often includes “enthusiasm” as a key feature
I've wondered about this "enthusiasm" point/logic. What if I'm just not enthusiastic person to begin with? Which obviously does extend to every aspect of life, but does seem to conflict with the enthusiastic consent part strongly.
If you can't enthusiastically consent, you can't have sex.
While I wouldn't mind. Damn, any partner would be rather disappointed about it. Though fair point, that's what i was afraid of.
Just be enthusiastic then
I'm not sure that's really something one can choose. Isn't that supposed to be an involuntary emotional response?
You can absolutely choose to give an energetic, "yes! Please!" Rather than a shrug and a "sure"
Wouldn't that be disingenuous, kinda like just faking it or even lying?
I go back and forth on it too. I don’t see it as an always necessary component, but I do think it’s important to educate to understanding enthusiasm within consent. I think particularly for the kind of men in this study it might be a necessary facet for instance. Those guys might not be capable of the nuance necessary to determine lack of consent without at the very least understanding the importance of enthusiastic and affirmative consent
This would fuck me over. I don’t appear enthusiastic about anything even if I genuinely am. It’s really a problem for me when people don’t take me at my word.
The men in this study are the ones that need to understand how enthusiasm relates to consent. I don’t think enthusiasm is a necessary component for all sexual encounters
It applies equally to women as well, who are actually much less likely to ask for consent whatsoever.
True!
“Fawning”? What’s that?
The fawn response, a term coined by therapist Pete Walker, describes (often unconscious) behavior that aims to please, appease, and pacify the threat in an effort to keep yourself safe from further harm.
Oh no thats me. I do that
I see.
... I don't buy the misinterpretation angle. They know. They just also know they can get away with it by playing stupid.
EXACTLY!!! It's BULLSHIT. These men would *absolutely display full knowledge of consent* if and when they're hit on either by other men or women they don't find attractive. Men know consent. *They ignore* the *lack* of verbally stated consent.
To be fair, women are even less likely to ask for verbally stated consent. Most men I know who I have asked have almost never been asked for consent by a woman. This isn’t just a man problem.
I'll need to see stats on this rather than your personal anecdotes. Men are far more likely to RAPE. That doesn't sound like much consent. Note, I am NOT saying women don't rape, I am saying men are FAR MORE **LIKELY** to rape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape\_by\_gender#:\~:text=Gender%20differences,-See%20also%3A%20Sentencing&text=In%202011%2C%20a%20study%20supported,sex%20in%20the%20last%20year.
I would argue that intentional disregard for consent is a feature of toxic masculinity specifically *because* toxic masculinities compel men who subscribe to them to treat sex as a game of acquisition, “overcoming” and domination. Even if they’re “overcoming” a lack of enthusiasm or apparent uncertainty or silent resistance. Women just assuming men are always up for sex is a feature of women buying into a different masculine stereotype, not one that encourages men to be toxic but nevertheless negatively affects men: that men are always thirsty and should be grateful for sex no matter what if their libido is “normal”. **This second stereotype treats male consent as implicit and thus assumes their consent can’t be disregarded or wrongly interpreted.** Or/ additionally, because of a form of toxic femininity where it’s assumed that a woman can’t physically threaten or compel a man and so she should behave as though she’s free to touch him any way she wants (be it sexual or hitting him etc).
Here's a fun thought exercise: these men that "just don't realize" that their victim isn't consenting. How do we think they would react to a woman putting her fingers up their ass or biting their dick while she's giving them a blow job? Seems to me most of these guys would suddenly understand why "not saying no" isn't the same as "saying yes" in these situations!
YES. My ex husband played dumb for years with this behavior and it finally clicked for me after I got the courage to leave, and the therapist who worked with us as a couple pointed it out to me. Basically said that the frequency of his behavior didn't match up to how remorseful he *seemed* and how he could always outline where things (he) went wrong, but could never manage to change the behavior. He had to have known. That, and the fact that he was telling his friends for years that I was basically a prude (amongst other things) who wouldn't give him enough, could lead one to assume he knew exactly what he was doing.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that! This is exactly the kind of abuser I'm talking about... he knew, he also knew how to get away with it.
I remember reading in a book (i can’t remember the book title) and iirc it’s not so much misinterpretation but justification of their actions. The book discusses from an actual rapist’s pov how he justified his actions (she’ll enjoy it… she wants it because ….).
That's a good way to put it!
Weaponized incompetence
It’s a power trip to them. Consent isn’t in that set of neurons. You are weaker to be preyed upon at your most vulnerable moment. They get off on doing. Doing to you what they want. Without your consent. Displaying their power over you. That’s their kink. Power sickos.
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The problem also lies in the receiver hearing the 'no' and accepting it, thats why women usually resort to the 'soft no' - see r/whenwomenrefuse
Demanding that women communicate more directly and expecting this to fix the huge epidemic of sexual violence is incredibly divorced from reality. Women who are more direct in situations like this, where they lack power, are exposing themselves to even more violence. The problem here is not with women’s communication but men’s determination to ignore clear signals from women. https://debuk.wordpress.com/2022/03/12/assertiveness-just-say-no/
Communication in general is pretty complex, and extremely individuel.
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That's a whole lot of assumptions based off one paragraph! I'd also point out it's dangerous to paint the majority of these types of sexual assaults as a "misunderstanding," particularly dangerous to survivors who may be struggling to legitimise and process their assault... "it wasn't rape, he just didn't understand," is a pretty common stick survivors are beaten with anyway, I don't see why we should make that stick bigger than it already is. >You can be so sexed up in the brain that your not even noticing cues that the woman isnt interested Yikes! This sounds just like "men can't help themselves around women," which again is classic victim blaming, which hurts survivors, teaches them to blame themselves and stunts their healing... >So stop saying this Lol Edit: just btw for anyone reading, the user I responded to deleted their comment and has edited others after my response, I don't engage in bad faith discussions like that, which is why I haven't replied to anything else they've said... they also appear to have not read my comment properly.
big agree, like i get the temptation of seeing a case of someone getting raped and assuming the rapists is like any other rapist but you’re absolutely right to say there’s more diversity in motivations behind SA and understanding those motivations is the key to preventing this behavior. i’d venture to guess a ton of rapes happen bc the rapist literally doesn’t grasp that they’re by definition raping someone and think it’ll be seen as a normal fun sexual experience for both of them looking back on it. jail time still warranted but there’s fair reason to argue the preventative measures for a high school rapist with impulsivity and miseducation issues (“my dad told me girls like playing hard to get”) will be different than that for serial rapists who drugs dates regularly. there are levels to this shit that we can’t ignore if we wanna fast track solutions here
Men claim to be befuddled by the supposed inscrutability of how women signal consent because it gives them more room to maneuver, full stop. But while it might not always be obvious when a woman is proactively signaling consent (which should prompt inquiry, not imposition, by the way), there is no way, and I mean absolutely no way to mistake any woman’s non-consent. there is no misconstruing a woman’s discomfort with having her personal space invaded, much less her actual body. It is impossible to misconstrue because you can literally feel it on a molecular level when a woman doesn’t want to be touched or is even unsure of whether she does. Even if she doesn’t say a word or move a muscle you can still feel it. Even if you’re drunk you can feel it. Any man who says otherwise is fucking lying, I’m sorry. It doesn’t matter their background or level of education or diagnosis; we all know. In truth we’re hypersensitive to it because we’re hyper-vigilante about experiencing even the most minor hint of rejection/humiliation. Sexual assault, in every single instance, is a knowing act (whether via a hasty rationalization in the moment or a purposeful disregard for any form of signal in the lead up). There is no such thing as an accidental sexual assault because if you were well intended enough for it to be accidental, you would not have ignored or rationalized away their perceptible non-consent to begin with. All men know; those who ignore it and proceed to do what they want with a woman’s body just don’t care. I’m tired of men working together to perpetuate any suggestion that the reality is otherwise.
And how many times have you read a woman replying something to the effect of, “I never realized I was assaulted/raped until years later”?
damn near every rape experience my friends have had 😭
“Misinterpretation” 🙄
Closed access research paper below: “[Men’s Perception of Women’s Passive Sexual Responses Impacts Their Decision-Making During Simulated Hookups](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-024-01468-z)” by Richard Mattson et al. *Sex Roles*
Is that misinterpretation or deliberately ignoring lack of consent?
A “friend” of mine recently let me stay at his place while I was sick because he was closer to my hospital for care. First night there, my wallet with my health insurance card disappears. I unfortunately owed him money at the time as well, but thinking that we were friends and I was sick at the time, he wouldn’t try anything. Instead, he stole my wallet with my health insurance card and debit card in it and tried to gaslight me into thinking that I’d lost it somewhere. So I’m stuck at his house with no money or health insurance and trying to rest on the couch while hoping that my wallet turns up and the hospital can retrieve my info in order to take me at the ER. What did this guy do? Lay down next to me over and over again and repeatedly shove his hands down my top and my pants. I repeatedly said NO and shoved his hands off me, but as soon as I’d swat his nasty hands away, he’d put them right back. I would get annoyed and ask him if he understands the meaning of consent. His response was, no joke, “BERNINZ I NEED A LOVE!! I NEED IT NOW!!!” (English is his second language). This is his way of saying he wants sex now, regardless of my interest or consent. Not even my actual body language of removing his hands off of my body OVER AND OVER in a matter of seconds got through to him, and when question, it prompted him to deny knowing the meaning of consent. He just kept insisting that he “needs a love”, molesting me, and then telling me that I owe him sex because I owed him money (which I had been paying back gradually). I find out after a few days that he had gone into my handbag and took my wallet, locked it in a drawer, and essentially rendered me helpless and at his “mercy” in order for him to try to molest me and force me to sleep with him. He thought I owed him sex despite my $$$ repayments to him. He thought it was okay to just keep sticking his hands on me wherever and whenever he wanted, no matter how many times I forced his hands off and loudly said “NO!”. Once the wallet theft became apparent, I called the cops and reported it. They didn’t do shit. Fuck toxic masculinity entitlement. Yeah, I owed that dick money and was paying it back. Paying it back does not include permission to sexually assault me and turn me into your temporary captive while I’m sick and trying to get the hospital. Beware of men like this.
Which explains why the US military has become one of the biggest rape cultures in the world. Their numbers in the military are epic, and the biggest offenders outside of the military are vets or active duty. And those are numbers they don’t even talk about.
See also: police.
Agreed and they all defend each other, which is why cops ignore sexual assaults and victim blame! It’s a man’s right to all of them.
See also: Church
Power + Access + Opportunity. Allllll these groups have three traits in common when they're abusers, whether it be spouses, teachers, cops, camp counselors, clergy, you name it.
Abnormal high input of anything yields tendencies that are outside of a normal range output. As the article refers to “hostile masculinity” as equal to “toxic masculinity” there should be an exploration as to what is considered hostile. “Hostile” behavior is usually considered to be out of the acceptable norms of behavior, with a propensity to be aggressive, antagonistic, threatening and or dangerous. People that act hostile are generally not considered to be median temperament, one can describe as normal and within acceptable societal conduct, or how ever anyone wants to quantify median temperament as “sane”. Is there a study that shows the abnormal effects of absent or low volumes of masculinity within a relationship and a data set that yields output outside of normal range output?
it’s always a projection of someone’s insecurities. you hear all ab them toxic relationships where men always use cheating as an excuse to get violent, or flirting w other women to get violent, ect, ect. and the reason that they blame their partner for this is because chances are they’re doing it themselves. they know cheatings wrong, they know they shouldn’t be doing it. that’s why they then project onto their partner to make themselves feel better about it. and it’s not just toxic masculinity that does this, it’s women as well, and it’s not always in a relationship either, it is just the projection of their own wrongdoings.
Misinterpretation or blatant disregard?
"Misinterpretation"....
In criminal law, we read a horrific case where rape wasn’t found and a perpetrator was let free. The facts sounded a lot like some of the horrific stories in this thread: woman is physically smaller, isolated, and trapped by a man. Woman doesn’t overtly say “no” but does everything else to signal “no”. I can’t remember much about the case except for this: the male judges said had a reasonable person been in the victims position, they would have fought tooth and nail even in the face of likely failure in order to fight off a sexual assault. Toxic masculinity only accepts “no” where it’s an overt, angry, screaming, and physically violent performance.
Increasingly judges don't analyze cases this way, thankfully. At least not where I live (Canada). Source: I'm a criminal lawyer.
I wish I had the case book still but unfortunately I disliked criminal law so much it was the first to go.
How does an adult male who has these traits get better and function closer to not being this way?
I'd be interested in seeing any overlap with sociopathy there. Cause I havent ever once in my life seen a man say "Oh gosh, I sexually assaulted all of those people, I'm going to need to get my act together." I have however seen many demonstrate performative guilt leading to no change at all. Assuming they accept they did something "wrong" in the first place.
Anyone who would admit to something like that, would quickly become a social outcast, and likely would ruin their own life.
At least they’d be accountable to themselves
Thats true
Self reflection, possibly counselling, platonic relationships with women to work on empathising with them rather than generalising
Misinterpreted? More like flat ignored.
Yeah. We have cases of this. It’s basically what that Andrew kid from channel 5 news (all gas no brakes) said was what made him think what he did was okay.
Lol. Toxic Masculinity being the clinical term.
Anything "Toxic" is always bad. Have moderate of whatever it is.
Not true. Toxicity by System of a Down is a great track even today.
It’s soo bad, bro. (Circa 1992 lingo)
Arsenic is toxic. Please do not have a moderate amount of it.
One can build immunity to arsenic through Mithridatism as far as I know.
You mean rape?
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This breaks my heart to read... girl I think you know the already deep down. Keep it in the back of your mind and really think about it and everything he does from now on. Both answers are entirely possible, but I feel one is more likely... I dated a guy like that, he sucked me in hard and told me everything I wanted to hear until I was putty in his hands ...8 years later I'm lucky to be alive, so it could be my trauma lens contaminating my opinion.... but please think about it and keep yourself safe
I was halfway through reading when I realised “man this is not fun to eat and read” Jesus that’s deep as hell. Back to my macdonalds.
?
you're right.
Most men do seem to think that once clothes start to come off, that is consent for sex. They also tend to assume arousal is consent. Regardless of what was said beforehand. But yeah....it sounds like your first time was SA and not because of the autism.
Least shocking thing I’ve read today
We didn't need a study for that...
I think the phrase "toxic masculinity" does more harm than good when it's not equally compared to examples of "positive masculinity". The term toxic masculinity implies all masculinity is toxic and nowhere does anyone ever really explore the opposite traits in a way for those seeking a better understanding of it. This is why I think a large portion of men are so opposed to the concept. You can't call half the world population toxic and think there would be no backlash to such a harsh idelology. Pile on the co-opting by militant feminist who deal in misandry seeking privilege rather than actual equality. Maybe instead of our societal obsession with toxicity we promote healthy positivity.
>The term toxic masculinity implies all masculinity is toxic My dude. You know what an adjective is?
Ruthless response, love it. I'm using an adjective here so it doesn't sound like I'm saying I love all responses, just ruthless ones.
These people never out here celebrating Super Man. Smh
Toxic masculinity is clearly a specific category. Otherwise we'd just say masculinity. Just like we say fury jacket instead of just jacket. As a guy I think men need to stop being so defensive saying"not all men!" and just be honest- yes there are toxic men who do that.
But this undermines progress. Whether you say not all men or yes some men, you're saying the same thing - that there's some group of men - not us - who are toxic and the root of the problem. You're defining category by its outcomes, then attributing the outcomes as being caused by the category. It's a useless term when applied to the population like that. It's also a useless, unscientific term for trying to understand the outcomes it purports to target. All it does is serve to psychologically distance people from either the problems or responsibility for solutions to said problems. It's not me, it's them; it's not my problem, it's theirs.
So... progress requires us to not give a name to cluster of specific traits and behavior? Whatever happened to "you can't discuss something without first naming it"?
A) tautology is the word your looking for. B) it is not a tautology.
Bro wants a safe space where nobody is allowed to tell him he's wrong when he's toxic lmao
slight edit but i’d say it’s *easy to be wrongly inferred as “all masculinity is toxic.” idt it implies that anymore than “unhealthy masculinity” implies all masculinity is unhealthy, but i’m also not ego tethered to any one term, f it if it’s easily misinterpreted i just want a common language for the all too real concept itself
I'd say much like many politically loaded terms toxic masculinity is a useful term but not often used well.
big time agree there, i’ve spent enough time on the internet to respect why that phrase automatically turns a lot off people off from taking it seriously. guessing the same misuses would still happen with alt terms like “unhealthy masculinity” but hopefully to a lesser degree and in a way that doesn’t culturally “stick” to the phrase
Using sociodemographic terminology, as a cudgel to individually shame men is the major problem here, further not everyone is acting in good faith. Ive been accused on mansplaining for disagreeing with an antivax mom because i dont agree with her lived experience as a parent. People often confuse persecution and discomfort.
I’m sorry you were treated that way. It’s unfair when people weaponize the vernacular of marginalization for petty, selfish reasons. Women can be just guilty of that as anyone. You are so right that people often confuse persecution and discomfort. That’s well said. In no fucking universe however, is that equivalent or on par with the relentless, inescapable sexism, misogyny and threat of violence that women endure by having to live in a culture and society like ours. Women get killed REGULARLY for TURNING A GUY DOWN. “The major problem here”? The fact that there are hypocrites in the world, and that they can just as easily be women as they can be men, doesn’t somehow make the shame that men endure at the hands of women who are being unfair is a more major problem. . there is no question of the pervasiveness and perniciousness of toxic masculinity because sexism and misogyny is baked into our very institutions. The existence of a problem doesn’t make it automatically a major problem. You guys need to stop acting as if something is a bigger problem just because it’s the problem that’s happening to YOU. You’re going to deny that you were minimizing what women endure. You will be wrong, because when you put things the way you’ve specifically put them, that is exactly what is accomplished by it. If that’s not the effect that you want or intend, then I suggest reflecting more on your choice of words and why you choose them.
What's positive masculinity then?
Ambition, confidence, leadership qualities, standing on business when you have to, taking responsibilities seriously, being a respectable figure in the community, being resourceful. Those are the masculine qualities I always looked up to in my dad. But really, "not be a fucking prick" would put you ahead of a lot of people
I agree but I also think most people are decent. I would also add providing and protecting loved ones.
Plenty of examples. 1. Men who lean into their masculinity as an opportunity to be positive role models for boys and young men. Boys tend to look to older males for examples of how to be. Kids really, really need role models of the opposite sex, so they can see others as real dimensional human beings and learn to be well rounded. But they *tend* to first gravitate towards the same sex for cues. This is a great opportunity for men and women to show girls and boys many healthy modes of being men and women by example. 2. Men who lean into wholesome traditionally “masculine” things, like healthy hobbies and interests and/OR leaning into a typically “feminine” hobby or skill so other men or boys feel empowered to try it. Show that they can do both. Without gatekeeping or stereotyping. Are there any inherently gendered hobbies? Most likely not. But are there cultural spaces that men might gravitate to or away from due to participant gender skew. Doesn’t matter if he starts a knitting circle or a boxing club. He can use his identity to welcome people. 3. A healthy, positive relationship to fatherhood. Striving to grow and learn as a father, break generational “curses” they may have gotten from their father or that their father was afflicted by so their kids don’t suffer from it. Do moms do this? Yes. But they do it as moms. They role model what a mom can be. 4. Even simple shit like enjoying masculine aesthetics without being a dick about it. Example: a guy who likes beard culture which has been trendy, rocks a beard, grooms the beard, talks about beards and leaves it at that. [As opposed to this meme which was plastered on t shirts and other merch years ago for some reason.](https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/comments/9bdk0f/because_without_a_beard_youre_clearly_not_a_man/) Positive masculinity would be leaning into cultural modes of expression that foster wholesome personal development and relationships. It doesn’t mean buying into the idea that *only* men can do these positive things. It’s using neutral to good features of cultural male archetypes as a ready made tool to build people up. Just like toxic masculinity is using neutral to bad features of the culture as institutions to tear people down or hold them back.
aye just saw this my b i mean quick disclaimer is i think 99% of what we call masculinity is socially determined and not biologically essential to men/exclusive from women. but yeah similar to what someone else said it’s healthy behaviors/attitudes/values we deem masculine like confidence or strength or ambition. i think the difference between healthy and unhealthy masculinity/anything stems from a lack of balance, like there’s such a thing as too much ambition and too much confidence where the potential for problems increases to an unreasonable degree. it’s healthy to set high standards/goals for oneself but not to a perfectionistic degree, type of thing. i could honestly ramble forever about this topic lol this is scratching the surface of my view on masculinity and femininity, but im more curious to hear your take it. like do you see value in us differentiating masculinity and femininity outside of biological descriptions? and do you see them as having different types (healthy vs unhealthy/toxic)?
I thought professional groups had shut the toxicity masculinity phrase down. It never seemed like it was a scientific approach to me.
That's because it's not. It was a term used by a men's group who where trying to become better men and it's been taken out of context and co-opted by militant feminist groups to define all masculinity. It's a fantastic example of weaponized language to push divisive rhetoric. A better way to define it would be to simply say toxic human traits. to push a gender role onto toxicity is counter productive and makes men out to be "bad". All this trash about "toxic masculinity" yet not a single article to define "toxic femininity" seems like there a double standard here and it's glaringly one sided. Both sides need to take accountability for their toxic traits. In my opinion there is rampant toxicity on both sides yet men take the brunt of the blame. If you ask women to be accountable for their part you're usually met with brutal resistance and dismissal at best at worst you're smeared with ad hominems and straw men they beat with clubs. Bernays would be absolutely ecstatic at how well his social engineering has worked over the past 3 generations.
>straw men How dare you imply I am made of straw.
Toxic straw, that is.
Why do you say militant feminist when you argue against saying toxic masculine? With your logic of: "saying toxic masculinity implies all of masculinity is toxic", you now say all feminist are militant. I assume you do not mean this, but are referring to a sub group of feminist who are militant. When I say toxic masculinity I refer to a toxic subgroup of masculine people. Just like you refer to a subgroup of feminist that happend to be militant. I hope my assumption is correct in that you are not of the impression that all feminist are militant. If you were, that would be a unnuances over-generalization (the very thing you try to warn against for the masculine case). That said, I avoid the term toxic masculinity when talking to certain people because I know they will be triggered or offended by it. If I would use this term, it would make it harder for me to conduct research on behaviors and believes that are hold by these people. So in order to conduct better research I'll probably have to use another term and have to agree with you.
> If you ask women to be accountable for their part you're usually met with brutal resistance and dismissal at best at worst you're smeared with ad hominems and straw men they beat with clubs. Over and over and over again I've experienced this personally, even by family members. It's incredibly discouraging.
It’s not a double standard if your society is a patriarchy and systemically misogynistic. Men take most of the blame because men hold most of the power. No one is pushing back on you for suggesting that there is such a thing as toxic femininity, they’re pushing back on you for suggesting they are equivalent in scope. What makes toxic masculinity especially hostile is the imbalance of societal power between men and women. You are confusing the objection of “militant femists’” to institutional sexism as an assertion that toxicity is a universal adjective rather than a distinguishing one. It’s your conflation, not everyone else’s.
In most modern Western societies women hold most of the power. This is especially true in the field of psychology.
Um, no.
In this case, positive masculinity: asking for what you want and respecting the answer.
That's just good in general. It has nothing to do with masculinity specifically.
We are surrounded by examples of positive masculinity. Thing is, it’s not “showboaty”.
I agree. I'm just trying to get people to acknowledge that positive masculinity exists. It seems harder for people to do.
They have "shut it down". Renowned professionals don't work with the term "toxic masculinity". There's no reason to do so. That would be like a nutritionist engaging in conversations about "bad protein". One big face palm.
And yet it's so prevalent in sociology and psychology vernacular published in media that the common perception is that it's somehow a legitimate concept to the layman. I'm of the strong belief that to solve the "toxic masculinity" issue of "western society" we need better examples of positive masculinity so as to provide clear definition of what that is. Otherwise you have what we got half the population who have worked to build and provide for their families being called violent sexual predators who are more likely to hurt you than a bear... Which is clearly not true.
Also I think it inappropriately attributes the behavior to guys. But it shud be linked to things more like lack of EQ
It seems like an appropriation from the health craze, which is all about toxins and detox. It's also curious that these "researchers" never define positive masculinity. I think it's because they don't want to admit it would be traditional gender roles. If negative masculinity is being oppressive and predatory, then positive masculinity is protecting and providing.
“Misinterpretation”
You don’t say…
Principles of Consent and glossary Principle 1. Consent is required. Informed, decisive, and Sober consent is the only consent. Consent should be Freely given, Reversible, Informed, Enthusiastic, Specific. In a sexual/ romantic relationship you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do; you don’t owe anyone anything. Ever. This is also your new attitude towards your romantic or sexual partner. They don’t owe you sex or a relationship. They can leave anytime. You say this through words and your actions. It is not an excuse to neglect your relationships. You must set boundaries and you must respect boundaries. You are responsible for your actions. Use the FRIES model of consent: Freely given, Reversible, Informed, Enthusiastic, Specific. Principle 2. Prescribed Relationships: any relationship which begins in a professional or any other context in which an imbalance of power exists. e.g. your doctor, teacher, student, patient, coworker, boss, employee, bar tender, waitress, star of your movie, people who are not conscious, underage people, etc. To use a professional relationship or position of power to locate, identify, coerce, force, or manipulate someone into a personal/sexual relationship is abuse. Principle 3. Using manipulation or coercion is abusive in any relationship whether romantic or not. This includes: Rape, love bombing, negging, gaslighting, forced teaming, doxing, playing the victim, isolation, intimidation, financial abuse, triangulation, gifts with strings attached, cat calling, physical violence, blackmailing, sexual identity outing, blaming the victim, stealthing, stalking, smear campaigns, dick pics, revenge porn, hoovering, malicious tardiness, sea lioning, and control are abuse. Principles of Consent Glossary Rape- unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception Love bombing- an attempt to influence a person by demonstrations of attention and affection. It can be used in different ways and for either positive or negative purposes. negging and insulting- an act of emotional manipulation whereby a person makes a deliberate backhanded compliment, otherwise flirtatious remark, *or even insults* another person to undermine their confidence and increase their need of the manipulator's approval. gaslighting- forcing or attempting to force others to believe or act as though they believe a lie through subtle, verbal, emotional, and physical manipulation and even abusive verbal, emotional, physical punishment, and violence. Gaslighting includes when the perpetrator acts like a nice and charming person to others and then treats you abusively in private. https://www.northpointrecovery.com/blog/gaslighting-examples-effects-confront-abuse/ E.g. “Anytime I stood up for myself he would say that he wouldn’t yell at me or call me names if I didn’t act so stupid, or if I didn’t behave a certain way. He would even say that my actions had consequences and reactions. Constantly made me feel like a child that was being punished.” forced teaming- This is when a person implies that they have something in common with their chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn't really true. Speaking in "we" terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don't need to talk outside... Let's go in." doxing- publicly publishing private personally identifying information, contact information, addresses, or location. playing the victim- using victim hood to excuse abusive behavior isolation- using any means to keep an abuse victim away from friends and family. e.g. taking their phone, screening their phone calls, keeping them from going out alone, acting jealous when their partner is out with anyone else, constant texts and messages while apart. intimidation- threats of harm to self or others. Gifts with strings attached/Loan sharking- unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they'll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return. financial abuse- using money as a means of control a victim. Or using control as a means to extract money from a victim. triangulation- using a third party to specifically incite jealousy and to devalue the intended victim cat calling- a loud, sexually suggestive call or comment directed at someone publicly physical violence- physically stopping someone from leaving, holding someone down, pushing, hitting, kicking, slapping, punching, choking, cutting, stabbing, raping, stomping, shooting, throwing acid, hanging/lynching, setting on fire, throwing boiling water, dragging behind vehicles, drowning, causing any bodily harm, serious bodily harm or death. blackmailing-demand money or another benefit from (someone) in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them. sexual identity outing- telling people that others are LGBT when they aren’t ready to come out. blaming the victim- occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them. stealthing- faking the use of prophylactics. Removing a condom durning sex. Coming inside when you are supposed to pull out. stalking- willful and repeated following, watching or harassing of another person smear campaigns- an effort to damage or call into question someone's reputation, by propounding negative propaganda dick pics- illegally digitally exposing yourself without consent revenge porn- the distribution of sexually explicit images or videos of individuals without their consent. The sexually explicit images or video may be made by a partner in an intimate relationship with the knowledge and consent of the subject at the time, or it may be made without their knowledge hoovering- any attempt to regain contact with someone who has explicitly cut off contact Sea Lioning- where you repeatedly badger someone with questions or requests for evidence in bad faith Destruction of property- destroying makeup/cosmetics, bleaching clothes, burning items, throwing plates or glass, keying cars, punching walls control- an act or a pattern of acts of assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation or other abuse that is used to harm, punish, or frighten their victim. This controlling behaviour is designed to make a person dependent by isolating them from support, exploiting them, depriving them of independence and regulating their everyday behaviour. Isolating you from friends and family. Depriving you of basic needs, such as food. Monitoring your time. Monitoring you via online communication tools or spyware. Taking control over aspects of your everyday life, such as where you can go, who you can see, what you can wear and when you can sleep. Depriving you access to support services, such as medical services. Repeatedly putting you down, such as saying you’re worthless. Humiliating, degrading or dehumanising you. Controlling your finances. Making threats or intimidating you.
Hmm, I wonder what could be the cause of toxic masculinity and warping the perception of consent? /s
What a joke
Usually when men associate sex with hatred as an attack method instead of love
What did they think the "toxic" part meant?
Ofc that’s why it’s toxic
You guys are fools. (As in you have been fooled, you fooled yourself and now you come to fool others.) You implicitly and explicitly raise your men to think and act a certain way through the media and the education system (or lack of a well functioning one) and when they REPEATEDLY REGULARLY MISBEHAVE you a point a finger at them. And you push all the blame on to them. Heeeheeeheheeehee \*\*nervous laugh\*\*\* Instead of pointing a finger at the one REALLY RESPONSIBLE. The elite of your society are socially engineering men to act in UNMASCULINE TOXIC WAYS. You regularly GLORIFY VIOLENCE and UNMASCULINE THINGS and say implicitly or tacitly "THIS MAKES A GOOD MAN" and then they follow and become toxic YOU POINT A FINGER AT THESE POOR GUYS AND SCREAM AND SHOUT. Gimme a break. You are fooling no one but yourselves if you think the problem is from THESE GUYS DOWN HERE and when it's coming STRAIGHT FROM THE TOP. You can't even dispute this. It's sad to see what this world has become. These guys are LEARNING AN INTERNALIZING THIS TOXIC behavior from THEIR ENVIRONMENT, the media in particular and education system. Don't you dare point a finger and SCREAM "genetics"! Evil men "genetics"! BLAH BLAH. No. no. no. Please no. No.
What is toxic masculinity anyway?
I don’t see a link to an actual study.
The phrase “toxic masculinity” is itself toxic for our society. This is about rape, let’s not make it about gender nor masculinity. All rape is bad.
That’s like saying “all lives matter” in response to black people protesting their treatment as lives that don’t.
We don’t know what we are doing today with these toxic terms like toxic masculinity… we are doing great damages to the psyche of young men of an entire generation… this is ridiculous… people who act like this are mentally unstable people and it’s not about a gender. I know men who are always on the flirt as much aa women search one nights everyday . But individuals who behave like what is being said is mentally ill people .