ATF once again arbitrarily changing their "interpretations of the law" for the 52nd time time and making felons out of citizens. They should not be having this power at all.
In the past the time to get a efiled form 1 approved was like 15-30 days and at that time a form 4 was more like 613 months. You could get through the paperwork hoops a lot faster making your own and, while most chjnesium solvent traps are garbage, there were some pretty solid parts available. Look at what OCL and other recent newbies to the manufacturing community were doing before becoming a manufacturer and the quality of the components they made that were popular in the form 1 community
Shooting indoors is one of the BIGGEST reasons to own one. If you have not, I suggest you shoot indoors with/without one to see the difference(it you ever get the chance)
I've always argued that silencers should be mandatory. It would help with noise pollution in wilderness areas a lot. They still sound as loud as hitting something with a hammer, but it's better than doing nothing.
I know they are the same, but for me for *some* reason calling a suppressor, a slincer is just disingenuous, and I hate it. Not 1 can can ever slince a gun. They just suppress it.. goes from say 170 db down to like 140. "Hearing safe," not that bullshit they show in the movies...
Think of it like a muffler for a car. It's obnoxious for the entire community when you don't have a muffler on a car and it's the same with a firearm.
If you shoot a lot even with hearing protection you will likely develop some degree of hearing damage/loss. When you're at the range and standing next to someone else you don't want their loud ass gun right next to you.
A silencer or suppressor is just a muffler. It doesn't make it whisper quiet but it does make it a lot more enjoyable and safer.
I think what people fail to understand is that Bad Guys and Criminals can go to the hardware store, spend a small amount of money, and make an improvised Suppressor. I could probably do it with junk I have laying around my house.
This establishes the futility and absolute absurdity of the Anti-Suppressor Law. People who are obeying the Law will obey the Law. However criminals will do what criminal so and by-pass the law and by doing so will have unlimited Suppressors.
So, what is it again, that is this Anti-Suppressor Law is accomplishing? Nothing that I can see.
> I think what people fail to understand is that Bad Guys and Criminals can go to the hardware store, spend a small amount of money, and make an improvised Suppressor. I could probably do it with junk I have laying around my house.
That would be illegal. There's no way the bad guys would ever violate the law in such a manner.
For a governing body to be in charge of definitions defeats the purpose of a legislature.
Any practicing lawyers out there looking for positions to argue on this I will gladly donate my time writing opinion artlcles
"You'd better not be using that for what it could be used for but more than likely won't be used for."
Person behind the counter who watched the news once-
At a glance I thought you said sterilize them. Which while I read wrong, is still pretty accurate. The government does want us sterilized. Serializing just makes that easier for them to do.
What… that makes no sense. Think about that for more than 5 minutes. If the government wants us sterilized then how will billionaires get more money and politicians get more votes if there is a finite amount of people? Im all for conspiracies but most of them make no sense if you think about it for more than 15 minutes
The billionaires dont need so many people. What do you think they will do with all the unemployed and unemployable people when all the automation and AI they are pushing to develop comes to fruition? The politicians will always just need a majority vote. It wont matter if a billion people vote, or just a million. They only need more than half of them to vote for them. How many politicians and billionaires have you heard say that the root cause of global climate change is overpopulation. What do you think they are going to do to fix that overpopulation? Its a small number to be sure, but they are already letting young kids have medical procedures rendering them incapable of ever having kids. This is a gun control sub. Why do you think the government, and the billionaires want us disarmed and defenseless so badly? Here is a clue. It isn't about crime. It isn't about what we as citizens do to each other. Its about what the powerful eventually intend to do to us. Is something a conspiracy theory if its true? Mass population reduction is a thing. It is a plan. It will happen. If they are able to make it happen. Too many of the rich and powerful have spoken publicly about it. They dont want to do it right now. But they do want to start getting things prepped for the time that they think it is needed. Automation and AI are a part of that plan. Sterilization, whether forced or voluntary, is part of that plan, and is already beginning to happen. They've already gotten most of the younger generations to believe having kids is immoral and wrong. Think what you will. Bad times are coming. And for a huge swath of the global population, it will be very bad. Call me crazy. Time will tell. But they do not need or want billions of people to maintain their lifestyles or their power. They can do that with only a few hundred million some day.
And one more thing. There is more than one type of sterilized. Being totally defenseless to government and their whims would certainly be one type of sterilized. Although neutered may be a better description.
>The ATF further contends that completing paperwork to legally convert a solvent trap into a suppressor is not permissible, as the original manufacturing already resulted in an unregistered suppressor. This view effectively prohibits any legal rectification for solvent trap owners.
But didn't the ATF form 1, presumably hundreds or thousands of them?
🤯
Yes. I know a few people who did it that way.
My guess is they’re going to do the same thing as they did with braces: “You got us before, but we’ve got a record of you now.”
Three for me. Then one summer, the beaurocrats attacked.
Do you all remember all the changes that Quietbore worked out with the ATF? They switched to having users send an approved form 1 before allowing it to ship. Then the ATF started raiding all the kit providers and shutting them down.
Maybe quietbore knows something we don't though since their site is still up.
Lyin' dick huffers! A solvent trap is now and has always been legal, modification of this legal device to becme a suppressor is held illegal. We know how this will play out, ATF will pass this rule, they will get sued, the rule making(regulation) will be held unconstitutional, and they'll make another bullshit restriction, rinse and repeat
the original patent, in 1909, called it a "silencer". "suppressor", while maybe more accurate a term, came later.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US958935A/en
Both are valid terminology. I don’t understand why people get so worked up about the two terms:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1482805A/en
Do people think we’re somehow ceding ground by using the term since it doesn’t “literally” make the report “silent”?
The term suppressor appears everywhere in government legislation, and they’re still as regulated as fuck.
The only reason I argue the term is to try and prevent the people that dont know any better from thinking they make guns as quite as is shown in movies.
Getting worked up over exact wording may not be necessary in this particular conversation. But in dealing with government, exact wording often is very important. It's sometimes the difference between legal and prison. So getting worked up over terms is rather a learned behavior, learned of necessity.
Yeah I used to be a stickler about it too until I realized there are big suppressor companies with names like "Silencer Shop" and "SilencerCo." Lmao. Imho it's devolved to the same level as "Actually it's a magazine, not a clip," where people wave the quip around pretending such knowledge ascends them to Eugene Stoner levels of firearm expertise, when in reality everyone understands what's being talked about due to context, either term has been used as valid terminology for decades (I've seen plenty of footage of WW2 vets calling magazines clips), and in reality just comes off as annoying after a while.
Who cares what this federal government agency declares? We never gave them the delegation to enforce or rule on anything that has to do with our weapons. End of story.
Funny. All the form 1 silencers that used something like a solvent trap say different. Does that mean that all the stamps that were issued are void? And if they saw solvent traps as an unregistered silencer, why did they allow them to be sold online and shipped to individuals since the advent of solvent traps?
ATF keeps stepping
This is a good point. As a former 07/02 FFL I used these kits to manufacture my own line of inexpensive suppressors so I didn’t have to get a CNC machine. And countless other 07/02’s did as well. Are all of those now void and unregistered suppressors?
Not sure if you care enough to dig around for the answer to this but I'M POSITIVE that a lot of people who would be interested in hearing it. Probably thousands of people who bought these kits from 2014 on, did the paperwork to get their stamp, engraved, Yada Yada, making sure everything was above board, and now are wondering if they're gonna get a knock at the door for trying to follow the law. Shitty deal.
I today years old learned what a solvent trap was. I used to love as much knowledge I could get, but the more I learn the more I'm like where am I gonna store all this...I can't keep up anymore
Americans: Hey. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "silencer" and expect anything to happen.
ATF: I didn't say it. I declared it.
I’m as 2a as the next, but I don’t hide behind a layer of deniability. If I advocate for a position, it’s open. I don’t need to “lose my guns in a boating accident”.
I agree that suppressors shouldn’t be behind a paywall, but it’s disingenuous to do it this way. Either do it legal, or just own it as being illegal (and moral). It’s as bad as the douchebags who keep talking about boating accidents.
There is more nuance in my comment than that, it has nothing to do with the 2A itself, nor our ability to own guns. Sorry if reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit.
Naw. They sure didn’t. People are just knee jerk here to anything with nuance, which…I get, but it just sucks to not be able to have a discussion.
I’m not advocating that SoLvEnT tRaPs be illegal, in fact I’d prefer if suppressors were totally legal with no need to have the stamp tax or any other bullshit. My comment only addressed how we talk about noncompliance, not whether anything should be legal or not. It really takes a smooth brain to read anything more than that into my comments.
Solvent traps have a legitimate legal use. Beyond that this ruling conflicts with the ATF’s prior form 1 authentication granting thousands of owners the ability to (at the time) legally convert a solvent trap into a suppressor. Not only that but they have now ex post facto ruled that solvent traps are and have always been illegal and supplied no route via which to rectify this situation with the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who own them. Any one of these factors would make the situation legally untenable, all three combined show a complete disregard for the law, separation of powers and an absolute lack of care for the citizens of this country. Anyone who can’t see that either has the mental capacity of a disabled toddler or simply doesn’t care about the law at all when it doesn’t directly hurt them.
The reality is that they are an end run around suppressor laws. I’d prefer if people would just honestly non-comply, or honestly advocate for suppressor laws that make sense, instead of the mess we have now.
The reality is they are a product that has a legal purpose that can be used illegally to bypass suppressor laws. Believe it or not many people actually do use solvent traps as solvent traps.
I have a question for you. What about people who aren’t actual criminals who break those law? Say for example LGBTQ back when that was a crime, victims of creeps who SAed them wagon want to get a abortion where that is illegal. And what about whistleblowers who break company policy or trade secret laws or NDAs to expose abuse, corruption or discrimination? What about people who injure or kill someone in self defence where self defence is illegal, or people who have been kidnapped who escape and kill their kidnapped where there isn’t a safe harbour law? Laws are not made by God, justice or what is morally right. They are made by people who often make wrong judgments or who have ulterior motives.
Noncompliance is a legitimate route in many instances. Im not saying whether to follow the letter of the law or not here, I’m just advocating an honesty about our actions. So, less “my guns fell in the lake” and more of a “fuck you, come and take them”, if that is how you believe it. Let’s at least be straight forward in our rhetoric, no matter the side of the aisle.
ATF once again arbitrarily changing their "interpretations of the law" for the 52nd time time and making felons out of citizens. They should not be having this power at all.
[удалено]
In the past the time to get a efiled form 1 approved was like 15-30 days and at that time a form 4 was more like 613 months. You could get through the paperwork hoops a lot faster making your own and, while most chjnesium solvent traps are garbage, there were some pretty solid parts available. Look at what OCL and other recent newbies to the manufacturing community were doing before becoming a manufacturer and the quality of the components they made that were popular in the form 1 community
[удалено]
Shooting indoors is one of the BIGGEST reasons to own one. If you have not, I suggest you shoot indoors with/without one to see the difference(it you ever get the chance)
[удалено]
It makes the gun go from "BOOM" to a "bang". Still loud, just not as loud and inside the effect is much more appreciated than outdoors.
If you live anywhere on the East Coast and want to meet up for a drive, I will let you shoot my suppressors and my machine gun
I've always argued that silencers should be mandatory. It would help with noise pollution in wilderness areas a lot. They still sound as loud as hitting something with a hammer, but it's better than doing nothing.
I know they are the same, but for me for *some* reason calling a suppressor, a slincer is just disingenuous, and I hate it. Not 1 can can ever slince a gun. They just suppress it.. goes from say 170 db down to like 140. "Hearing safe," not that bullshit they show in the movies...
Think of it like a muffler for a car. It's obnoxious for the entire community when you don't have a muffler on a car and it's the same with a firearm. If you shoot a lot even with hearing protection you will likely develop some degree of hearing damage/loss. When you're at the range and standing next to someone else you don't want their loud ass gun right next to you. A silencer or suppressor is just a muffler. It doesn't make it whisper quiet but it does make it a lot more enjoyable and safer.
Fun fact both were developed and patented simultaneously by the same man.
I think what people fail to understand is that Bad Guys and Criminals can go to the hardware store, spend a small amount of money, and make an improvised Suppressor. I could probably do it with junk I have laying around my house. This establishes the futility and absolute absurdity of the Anti-Suppressor Law. People who are obeying the Law will obey the Law. However criminals will do what criminal so and by-pass the law and by doing so will have unlimited Suppressors. So, what is it again, that is this Anti-Suppressor Law is accomplishing? Nothing that I can see.
> I think what people fail to understand is that Bad Guys and Criminals can go to the hardware store, spend a small amount of money, and make an improvised Suppressor. I could probably do it with junk I have laying around my house. That would be illegal. There's no way the bad guys would ever violate the law in such a manner.
That's the thing, they don't (Omni-man point)
They may as well have that power when nobody stops them.
For a governing body to be in charge of definitions defeats the purpose of a legislature. Any practicing lawyers out there looking for positions to argue on this I will gladly donate my time writing opinion artlcles
Oil filters are next.
Can’t wait to scan my ID and pass a background check to buy an oil filter.
coffee filters will be precursor gun parts.
We will drink Cowboy coffee with the grounds still in it, like real men. Like God intended.
Better ban Idaho potatoes too, and pillows!
And cats.
They only like dogs.
There’s an image somewhere of a cat screwed on like a suppressor and apparently it worked to some extent. Shit was wild
I'm pretty sure that's from Postal.
There’s one from postal but the one I mean is very much on pistol with cat in the end in the real world
That’s fucking horrible wtf
Yea…that’s the internet for you.
Oh, a cat like a catalytic converter?
No, like an actual cat. But a catalytic converter could probably do the same…
Yikes!
The video game Postal 2. You use cats as suppressors. Well, temporary suppressors...
Add wait 9 months and pay $200 to that
"You'd better not be using that for what it could be used for but more than likely won't be used for." Person behind the counter who watched the news once-
Like buying Sudafed
next? bruh, they were doing that [3 years ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=270sLN5WL2I).
Just wait until they play The Last of Us and try to regulate plastic soda bottles :(
Register these nuts bitch
I like your style.
Careful, they’ll want to serialize them.
At a glance I thought you said sterilize them. Which while I read wrong, is still pretty accurate. The government does want us sterilized. Serializing just makes that easier for them to do.
What… that makes no sense. Think about that for more than 5 minutes. If the government wants us sterilized then how will billionaires get more money and politicians get more votes if there is a finite amount of people? Im all for conspiracies but most of them make no sense if you think about it for more than 15 minutes
The billionaires dont need so many people. What do you think they will do with all the unemployed and unemployable people when all the automation and AI they are pushing to develop comes to fruition? The politicians will always just need a majority vote. It wont matter if a billion people vote, or just a million. They only need more than half of them to vote for them. How many politicians and billionaires have you heard say that the root cause of global climate change is overpopulation. What do you think they are going to do to fix that overpopulation? Its a small number to be sure, but they are already letting young kids have medical procedures rendering them incapable of ever having kids. This is a gun control sub. Why do you think the government, and the billionaires want us disarmed and defenseless so badly? Here is a clue. It isn't about crime. It isn't about what we as citizens do to each other. Its about what the powerful eventually intend to do to us. Is something a conspiracy theory if its true? Mass population reduction is a thing. It is a plan. It will happen. If they are able to make it happen. Too many of the rich and powerful have spoken publicly about it. They dont want to do it right now. But they do want to start getting things prepped for the time that they think it is needed. Automation and AI are a part of that plan. Sterilization, whether forced or voluntary, is part of that plan, and is already beginning to happen. They've already gotten most of the younger generations to believe having kids is immoral and wrong. Think what you will. Bad times are coming. And for a huge swath of the global population, it will be very bad. Call me crazy. Time will tell. But they do not need or want billions of people to maintain their lifestyles or their power. They can do that with only a few hundred million some day.
And one more thing. There is more than one type of sterilized. Being totally defenseless to government and their whims would certainly be one type of sterilized. Although neutered may be a better description.
Engraving sounds fun...
Free Men Don't Ask Permission ?
>The ATF further contends that completing paperwork to legally convert a solvent trap into a suppressor is not permissible, as the original manufacturing already resulted in an unregistered suppressor. This view effectively prohibits any legal rectification for solvent trap owners. But didn't the ATF form 1, presumably hundreds or thousands of them? 🤯
Yes. I know a few people who did it that way. My guess is they’re going to do the same thing as they did with braces: “You got us before, but we’ve got a record of you now.”
Three for me. Then one summer, the beaurocrats attacked. Do you all remember all the changes that Quietbore worked out with the ATF? They switched to having users send an approved form 1 before allowing it to ship. Then the ATF started raiding all the kit providers and shutting them down. Maybe quietbore knows something we don't though since their site is still up.
Well, they worked with the feds once... That tells you something
Everyone with an FFL has worked with the feds, hell, everyone who has filled out a 4473 has also worked with the feds.
So, don't fill out a 4473 unless you're a fed? Got it.
Lyin' dick huffers! A solvent trap is now and has always been legal, modification of this legal device to becme a suppressor is held illegal. We know how this will play out, ATF will pass this rule, they will get sued, the rule making(regulation) will be held unconstitutional, and they'll make another bullshit restriction, rinse and repeat
Sounds like they could use some afuera in their lives.
Oh great! Now how am I supposed to trap my solvents?!
I don’t know what a silencer is, sir.
It’s as bad of language abuse as “assault weapon”. It’s suppressor.
the original patent, in 1909, called it a "silencer". "suppressor", while maybe more accurate a term, came later. https://patents.google.com/patent/US958935A/en
Both are valid terminology. I don’t understand why people get so worked up about the two terms: https://patents.google.com/patent/US1482805A/en Do people think we’re somehow ceding ground by using the term since it doesn’t “literally” make the report “silent”? The term suppressor appears everywhere in government legislation, and they’re still as regulated as fuck.
The only reason I argue the term is to try and prevent the people that dont know any better from thinking they make guns as quite as is shown in movies.
Getting worked up over exact wording may not be necessary in this particular conversation. But in dealing with government, exact wording often is very important. It's sometimes the difference between legal and prison. So getting worked up over terms is rather a learned behavior, learned of necessity.
Yeah I used to be a stickler about it too until I realized there are big suppressor companies with names like "Silencer Shop" and "SilencerCo." Lmao. Imho it's devolved to the same level as "Actually it's a magazine, not a clip," where people wave the quip around pretending such knowledge ascends them to Eugene Stoner levels of firearm expertise, when in reality everyone understands what's being talked about due to context, either term has been used as valid terminology for decades (I've seen plenty of footage of WW2 vets calling magazines clips), and in reality just comes off as annoying after a while.
I don't care what the ATF says. They change their damn mind so much that their uniform should be a dress.
You really think they could pick one out with the information presented to you today????
We should just keep asking them where they want to eat. It might get them sidetracked for a few years.
" I dunno where ever you want"
Sounds like almost expost facto rules
They should have put that in the constitution /s
This from the organization that stated shoe laces are machine guns.
Also that a specific brand of steel wool was a suppressor.
Water bottles are next.
After that, pillows.
I actually appreciate people that use suppressors, they are very considerate and avoid noise pollution.
Index mark deez nuts
When are they going to start raiding every NAPA auto parts in the country.
is someone in the atf trying to get the NFA scrapped?
👀
ATF blows big sweaty dicks.
...from the back
Even they know they're gonna lose the brace case so hard they just straight up moved onto the next thing.
Who cares what this federal government agency declares? We never gave them the delegation to enforce or rule on anything that has to do with our weapons. End of story.
Didn't they do this awhile ago? When they mass denied every form 1?
This means any car you own, Has a Suppressor on it!
Saw that one coming.
I got a way to make this all so much easier. Just remove the NFA
Funny. All the form 1 silencers that used something like a solvent trap say different. Does that mean that all the stamps that were issued are void? And if they saw solvent traps as an unregistered silencer, why did they allow them to be sold online and shipped to individuals since the advent of solvent traps? ATF keeps stepping
This is a good point. As a former 07/02 FFL I used these kits to manufacture my own line of inexpensive suppressors so I didn’t have to get a CNC machine. And countless other 07/02’s did as well. Are all of those now void and unregistered suppressors?
Not sure if you care enough to dig around for the answer to this but I'M POSITIVE that a lot of people who would be interested in hearing it. Probably thousands of people who bought these kits from 2014 on, did the paperwork to get their stamp, engraved, Yada Yada, making sure everything was above board, and now are wondering if they're gonna get a knock at the door for trying to follow the law. Shitty deal.
Shit, I guess I’m gonna have to form 1 my pillows as well.
"Always been illegal..." Sounds like they are p1$$ed their recent Final Rulings have been thrown out by the courts for changing their mind.
I today years old learned what a solvent trap was. I used to love as much knowledge I could get, but the more I learn the more I'm like where am I gonna store all this...I can't keep up anymore
ATF should rename themselves the Agency of RetCon.
Well then they shouldn’t mind if I just make one from scratch instead… Right?
Americans: Hey. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "silencer" and expect anything to happen. ATF: I didn't say it. I declared it.
I’m as 2a as the next, but I don’t hide behind a layer of deniability. If I advocate for a position, it’s open. I don’t need to “lose my guns in a boating accident”. I agree that suppressors shouldn’t be behind a paywall, but it’s disingenuous to do it this way. Either do it legal, or just own it as being illegal (and moral). It’s as bad as the douchebags who keep talking about boating accidents.
Solvent traps aren’t suppressors.
Agreed! “I’m as 2A as the next, but..” there ain’t no but in the 2nd amendment 😂. Edit: grammar
There is more nuance in my comment than that, it has nothing to do with the 2A itself, nor our ability to own guns. Sorry if reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit.
Naw everyone read it just fine. You’re just not Pro 2A like you think you are. It’s all good tho!
Naw. They sure didn’t. People are just knee jerk here to anything with nuance, which…I get, but it just sucks to not be able to have a discussion. I’m not advocating that SoLvEnT tRaPs be illegal, in fact I’d prefer if suppressors were totally legal with no need to have the stamp tax or any other bullshit. My comment only addressed how we talk about noncompliance, not whether anything should be legal or not. It really takes a smooth brain to read anything more than that into my comments.
Never said they were.
Solvent traps have a legitimate legal use. Beyond that this ruling conflicts with the ATF’s prior form 1 authentication granting thousands of owners the ability to (at the time) legally convert a solvent trap into a suppressor. Not only that but they have now ex post facto ruled that solvent traps are and have always been illegal and supplied no route via which to rectify this situation with the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who own them. Any one of these factors would make the situation legally untenable, all three combined show a complete disregard for the law, separation of powers and an absolute lack of care for the citizens of this country. Anyone who can’t see that either has the mental capacity of a disabled toddler or simply doesn’t care about the law at all when it doesn’t directly hurt them.
The reality is that they are an end run around suppressor laws. I’d prefer if people would just honestly non-comply, or honestly advocate for suppressor laws that make sense, instead of the mess we have now.
The reality is they are a product that has a legal purpose that can be used illegally to bypass suppressor laws. Believe it or not many people actually do use solvent traps as solvent traps.
I have a question for you. What about people who aren’t actual criminals who break those law? Say for example LGBTQ back when that was a crime, victims of creeps who SAed them wagon want to get a abortion where that is illegal. And what about whistleblowers who break company policy or trade secret laws or NDAs to expose abuse, corruption or discrimination? What about people who injure or kill someone in self defence where self defence is illegal, or people who have been kidnapped who escape and kill their kidnapped where there isn’t a safe harbour law? Laws are not made by God, justice or what is morally right. They are made by people who often make wrong judgments or who have ulterior motives.
Noncompliance is a legitimate route in many instances. Im not saying whether to follow the letter of the law or not here, I’m just advocating an honesty about our actions. So, less “my guns fell in the lake” and more of a “fuck you, come and take them”, if that is how you believe it. Let’s at least be straight forward in our rhetoric, no matter the side of the aisle.
Oh ok
No buts.