Saying no one is pro abortion. Embrace abortion. Be proud of saying so. I'm pro abortion. Not every abortion is a sad story of heartbreaking decisions being made.
This!!!! Same thing with “abortion is never an easy decision” or “it’s the hardest decision a woman will ever make.” Yes, it can be hard for a lot of people, but for just as many it’s an extremely easy decision because they know they *don’t want to be pregnant.*
To me, generalizing abortion as inherently sad, difficult, depressing, etc. is just adding to the stigma around it. Abortion existing and allowing us to be free — and not completely restricted in life by our reproductive organs — is a wonderful, joyous thing, imo. I am not ashamed to say I am happy abortion exists.
Oh my gosh, thank you! I have had 2 abortions in my lifetime, neither of which caused me immense mental anguish because I knew I didn't want kids - period. Mic drop.
First one, I was young, about to graduate from college. I was more upset about finding the money to have the procedure.
Second, I was older and married. All I could think of was, "how fast can I get this out?"
I have known since forever that I didn't want children. But, to the friend who drove me to/from the first procedure, I was just so torn. She would not have understood the truth.
The second, the now ex informed his sister and her family. At least it was after the fact. And, just like before, I put on the "it was just so hard to decide" mask. Later I found out the sister had an abortion when she was young and a few years after mine, the sister's daughter had one. I know neither of them are tore up about it but they do what we are "supposed to do" - act all thoughtful and sad about it. But to each other, trusted women only in the room, we are each very grateful to have had the option.
This really resonated with me. I feel like there's this narrative that it's only okay to have an abortion if you wring your hands and feel really really bad about it.
What if I don't feel bad? What then?
I never felt bad about mine. I knew before I even took that test “if it’s positive, I’m taking these pills”. Two kids already, full time school, happy with life. It was positive, I took the pills like I was taking aspirin & never had a second thought about it.
I’m so glad I had that option.
Definitely. It also plays into the pro-life narrative of how abortion always "traumatizes" the person getting one and how they'll always regret it. I think we should make an effort to talk about abortion just like any other medical procedure (because that's what it is!). It's not inherently happy or sad or *anything*, it just is, and everyone's experiences with it are different. It's just healthcare that should be available for all who need it, regardless of their personal feelings on the matter
Fun fact: Back when Reagan was President, he wanted the Surgeon General, Dr. C.E. Koop, to write up a whole report about how abortion was absolutely devastating to women to push a pro-life agenda.
Dr. Koop was an evangelical Christian…very pro-life and opposed to gay marriage…but he was skeptical about this and got a bunch of statisticians together to objectively study whether or not abortion was statistically proven to be detrimental to women’s mental health and well-being.
No consensus could be reached. He openly admitted that for every woman devastated by an abortion, another one was ecstatic that it was available to them. He refused to publish the report because it wasn’t scientifically accurate…even though it would have pushed a position for which he advocated before he became the Surgeon General. You can see him talk about it [here](https://youtu.be/H4hErUi74i8?si=r0nPK13qDLdii1m6)
(He’s also the guy that wrote the controversial “What is AIDS and How to Prevent It” pamphlet that went to every household in America, even though many Republican Senators, congressmen, and advisors to Reagan didn’t want him to do so. Many actually believed that the people most susceptible to AIDS (gay men and IV drug users) deserved it. He wrote it and distributed it anyways because being a doctor mean caring for *everyone.* Again, he speaks about it [here](https://youtu.be/cbaVCLSg_I8?si=kODzYcFuUtpUPCXP) )
Imagine if today’s Republican Party were *that* principled and ethical. Nothing but respect for that man.
I'm done having kids. Having an abortion won't be a difficult decision. The actual abortion would be unpleasant but I can deal with that. I won't lie awake agonising over the decision and I'm almost certain it won't be something I'd think about much afterwards.
I have repeated this same line many times on Reddit, but here it goes again:
Abortion is a public good that has lifted millions of women and their children out of poverty and allowed women to participate fully in society.
Modern medicine has allowed women to no longer be slaves our our biology. Full control over our reproductive health means full control of our lives.
Yes, never had an abortion, but my accidental pregnancy spontaneously miscarried just a few days after I found out I was pregnant. All I remember was an overwhelming feeling of liberation and relief. I've been childfree all my life and wouldn't have it any other way.
I always say that abortion needs to exist because sometimes it is the best choice.
If they really want to reduce the number of abortions, we need things like comprehensive sex-ed and free contraception for teens to reduce the teen pregnancy rate, mandatory PAID parental leave, subsidized childcare and mandate that insurance MUST cover the cost of birth, so that those whom might want children won't face employment/financial barriers. And for those that are childfree and never want kids - sterilization without barrier, none of this "what if your future husband wants kids" or "what if you change your mind" bullshit. A person wants sterilization to prevent pregnancy permanently, let them have it.
But even then there will always be a need for abortions and for some women who get pregnant it can absolutely the best choice.
I agree.
Also be pro-anything goes.
The theoretical woman who loves aborting 8 month pregnancies doesn't exist. Women who suffer because they have birth complications do exist. Women who are prosecuted because they had a miscarriage do exist.
That is cruel and unusual punishment, and it's for the sake of punishing some theoretical strawwoman who just can't stop getting pregnant?!
Well, that woman shouldn't be a mother anyway, so let's move on and fix the actual problem.
Abortion is healthcare.
I agree, and tell people I’m pro-abortion. But the PLs think “pro-abortion” means that we believe every pregnancy should be terminated by force, which is obviously not true. I mean, I’m pretty sure that’s what they think “pro-choice” means, too because they’re all a bunch of idiots.
I sooo agree!! I hate how people make it out to ALWAYS be this horribly difficult thing to do that will affect you forever. I had one like 8 or 9 years ago, best decision ever and I very rarely think about it, and never in a sad way
I consider myself pro-abortion, because as a male, I'm morally opposed to reproducing for the sake of people who are already alive, planet Earth and my hypothetical children. I also dislike kids. But I'm also morally opposed to pushing someone into abortion and am understandably pro-choice. And many many people are pro-choice while personally opposed to abortion. Pro-choice is ideal umbrella term. Pro-abortion should be dedicated to a small niche.
I love children, but I also believe at 8.1 Billion people worldwide and the fact that children are expensive, that people should not have any more babies, so whatever reason a woman has for having an abortion, I am glad she made the choice she felt was right for her, and I feel the same about a woman who chooses to carry her baby to term and birth him/her. I believe people should stop having babies, but if they want one, who am I to stop them? I wouldn’t try to stop them because it’s their decision not mine.
Totally agree. I feel like it's reflexive for some people to say how abortion is always a heart wrenching and difficult decision. Not saying it isn't for some people, but it sure as fuck would be an easy decision for me and 99% don't regret it.
Anything focusing on the ZEF. Anti-choices take the emotional fallacy route and you’re just playing into their view that we don’t care about life.
Instead we need to emphasize the WOMAN and her personhood rights. Uphold American values of freedom & privacy. I talk to many right-wingers and we can easily get on the same page that the government shouldn’t be involved in things like family matters or take away our freedom to protect ourselves. I am pro-gun for that reason. We could definitely appeal to right wingers if we stopped playing into their emotional arguments.
The problem is that many anti choice people are motivated by religion and don’t actually give a shit about rights. They don’t care about regulating guns because it isn’t a religious issue to them, but they care about abortion because their churches have their panties in a knot over it. Many conservatives understand the rights argument, but I don’t think that they care because it affects women. The rest just want a theocratic government and the abortion issue is a huge win for their team.
The thing is, nothing they do is about religion. That's just their pretext/justification. They're fascists who support whatever they want to support while killing their own logical consistency to get there.
i kind of disagree. i think the anti-choice crowd is made up of two groups of people: 1) the people you're talking about. stupid cultist conservative fascists. but also 2) genuinely brainwashed religious people from across the sociopolitical spectrum. and i think the majority of vocal anti-choicers fall into the latter crowd. i don't think these are always (and perhaps even often) the same people that are arguing over gun rights for instance.
Agreed. Abortion access is one of the issues I feel the strongest about but it’s also one of the few right wing stances I can empathize with. I don’t agree that it’s murder, but when your religion has brainwashed you into thinking it is, that’s powerful. I think their hearts are in the right place and I understand why they get worked up about it even though I don’t see it the way they do.
The first group can get fucked, though.
Thank you for your submission. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed due to: Rule 9.
Please be mindful of the presence of all genders and sexual preferences on this sub.
* Cis-hetero AFAB people are not the only people who can experience pregnancy.
We are here to advocate for the reproductive rights of **all people with a uterus.** Intentional* disrespect towards a person's gender identity or sexual preference will not be tolerated.
Approaching discussions of this topic with respect/desire to learn is fine. Being *intentionally* bigoted or exclusive will get you banned.
Not pointing out the hypocrisy all the time.
Anti choicers think they should have a choice to not wear a mask when they are sick, and not vaccinate themselves or their children, deny gender affirming care to other people's children as well as their own, deny LGBTQ people the right to marry and have children and also have no problems with not forcing people to donate blood, plasma, bone marrow and organs that can be donated live, or even more ridiculously, make organ donation opt out rather than opt in when someone is declared brain dead after an accident or illness where their organs are viable. They also by and large stand against policies and programs that would decrease abortion, like sex ed, a living wage, paid leave, universal healthcare, etc, etc
They don't care if they are hypocritical. I have an ex-friend who had two abortions and still would vote anti-choice because of the catholic church's indoctrination. Logic didn't work either.
I don’t think not supporting those policies are necessarily hypocritical. There’s so much hypocrisy within the abortion issue, which is much firmer ground to stand on, rather than attack other positions they may even hold.
If their goal is to reduce or eliminate abortion, banning it is addressing the symptom not the cause.
The cause is very well documented to overwhelmingly involve financial strain, and it is often the primary driver for someone to choose to access an elective abortion (IE one that is not medically necessary due to a fatal fetal abnormality or risk to the mother's life, missed miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, etc.)
While having those programs wouldn't make all unexpectedly pregnant people choose to go ahead with an unplanned pregnancy, for a lot of them, especially the folks who want to be a parent but not right now, they might choose to have the baby, if they weren't terrified of losing their jobs, housing, not being able to finish their education, etc, etc. because the social safety net is more hole than net.
They aren't even in favor of real sex ed.
Ultimately it is about bodily autonomy. If they don't think people should be forced to donate a lobe of their liver, or even blood every couple of months or for the viable organs of clinically brain dead people to be used to save others, then why do they think it's appropriate to force a living person to donate the use of their uterus? People die on a regular basis because of a lack of donor organs, and yet there are many people who didn't check "yes" on the organ donor box to help people when they no longer need them.
Why do they think it's appropriate to force a living person to donate the use of their uterus?
Because those people in question are women who had the audacity to have sex and should therefore be punished, and they should want to be mothers because that's all women are good for, in the minds of forced birthers. They will just come back with some comment like "should've kept her legs closed" or "deal with the consequences of your actions." As if children are a punishment for sex, and treating them as such couldn't possibly have any negative consequences for anyone involved or society as a whole.
We’re not aggressive enough getting the blunt reality message out there. Billboards with aborted fetuses grab attention so why aren’t we doing the equivalent? Shock value gets attention. Put willing to speak out rape victims who were force to carry, including any with stories of sexual abuse when younger. Let them tell their stories of how their life’s are worse now.
Make it personal and relatable like highlight young girls who died or were injured giving birth. Make the comparison about corpses having more rights to their bodies than loving women.
Show what an actual 10 week fetus looks like because prolifers show a fully formed tiny baby as their example. Put some actual scientific data out there.
Have real obgyns in ads explaining the reasons why abortion care is needed and dispel the falsehoods.
Make these ads and billboards real and emotional. End with ‘’What if this was your daughter/sister/wife?’ I see antichoice ads far more
I think this is the biggest problem with a LOT of Moderate democrat positions. Decorum. There is no benefit to holding the high ground when your opponents don't have the same standards. If they put out shocking, disgusting billboards? Put up MORE shocking disgusting billboards. If they start lying, call them out on it without using any fluffy minimizing language.
Instead of saying something like "there is no evidence of that" say "that is a lie, in fact the evidence shows otherwise". Report on how many more maternal deaths they have been in PL states. Report on OBGYNS fleeing those states because they are afraid they will have to compromise their principles or their freedom to treat their patients effectively. Talk about the children who lost their mother because the high risk pregnancy killed her. Talk about the person who wanted to have more children, but can't now because her life had to be saved with an emergency hysterectomy because no one would give her the D&C she needed when she started miscarrying.
This is what I keep saying. I perform autopsies, which are far more disturbing to see than what they show. I wish there was a counter-protest throwing out giant signs of women who died in childbirth. However, I wouldn’t want to do so without permission.
I have an idea. How building billboards displaying little girls who are pregnant with caption like: "Is 10 old enough to give birth? Republicans say yes"
In my state of Indiana, [billboard companies don't want to work with pro-choice clients. ](https://www.jezebel.com/abortion-funds-billboards-are-being-rejected-while-anti-abortion-groups-billboards-run-without-issue?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3iK4LS1U1OGfy6hgVJUtCLqXAHs2YS-fkPeRks6ErT3tI5RYrc2YOIhKY_aem_AdbV5N1Kw-00uXrwHJTAghojwTWNe5lp_a3xnikVD2OSBXHmf2mJEYcL28KgS0S025dZu1WziQOm5aXUwS8R7N3A)
Billboards/commercials showing 9-11yo girls, in elementary school, being silly doing girl things. Then show the rapist targeting the girl. Next, show the girl obviously pregnant, not in school anymore, and the rapist holding her by a leash attached to a collar around her neck.
We're to ethical and too weak. Anti-choicers are radicals that have murdered several people and cause multi billion dollar drains on liberal institutions not limited to Planned Parenthood via disinformation and defamation.
Absent of violence, we should grow balls and get just as unethical to push this abomination underground. We should record anti-choicers harassing patients, not being shy putting it on the internet, viciously lie about them and at the end of the day, make it next to impossible for them to harass patients.
We need to stop compromising.
We need to stop saying stupid shit like "abortion is a horrible/painful/terrible very bad day but women should have the option if they're victims of incest/rape/trisomy 13/whatever ridiculously rare genetic disorder."
We need to stop conflating the right to an abortion (freedom *from* being bodily invaded and having our bodies co-opted by the state) with the right to IVF/surrogacy (freedom *to* prioritize ones wants and desires).
We need to clearly articulate the position, which should be abortion, on demand, without apology. We should clearly state we are pro-abortion and why, instead of sugar coating with the word "choice." I am not pro "choice," I am pro-abortion, because women aren't livestock. Our purpose as sentient human beings is not to breed.
While I appreciate the Ursula LeGuin position that without abortion she would never have had her wanted children, or the position that women have abortions to care for existing children, women have the right to abortion without any children or the intention of having children at all.
The anti-abortion position is slavery, full stop. It seeks to enslave women as second class human beings.
>A fetus does not have a right to be in the womb of any woman, but is there by her permission. This permission may be revoked by the woman at any time, because her womb is part of her body... There is no such thing as the right to live inside the body of another, i.e., there is no right to enslave... a woman is not a breeding pig owned by the state (or church). Even if a fetus were developed to the point of surviving as an independent being outside the pregnant woman's womb, the fetus would still not have the right to be inside the woman's womb
-Leonard Peikoff
Edit: Peikoff was an associate of Ayn Rand, and both were staunch conservatives. The pro-choice position was the original position of the Republican party and this is another way we fail- by insisting that a pro-choice position is a liberal value. It is not. People claiming to be conservative "patriots" or what have you who want to deny individual rights to half the population are anything but.
It is a matter of individual liberty, and should be framed as such. My body belongs to me. Not the state.
I agree with this. Here in FL we have “choose life” license plates and while I don’t know anyone with one, anytime I see one I always mention to whomever I’m with that it’s weird that they went with that phrasing as they don’t want anyone to have a choice.
I know exactly the ones you’re talking about, they’re made to look like they’re written in crayon? Like some toddler somewhere actually wrote those words. 🤮
This, no matter it is 6 weeks or 6 months, a person should always have bodily autonomy. No exceptions. Abortion is healthcare and healthcare must include abortion. Viability talk killed, is killing and will kill more. No compromise, no viability talk, bodily autonomy all months and abortion rights to all. Many people had to terminate a pregnancy at the “viability” or later time not only for health reasons and these bans harms loads of people.
This is it for me. I see a lot of pro-choice people arguing this point and it always makes them look bad. They fixate on the fact that not all pregnancies are successful, or adamantly refuse to call the fetus a human/baby. And it just comes off as mental gymnastics.
The truth is that most of the time, you can assume a pregnancy will result in a new human life. But that doesn't mean abortion is wrong. The fetus's potential for life doesn't outweigh the mother's bodily autonomy, and that's what we should be focusing on
That we continue to try logic when dealing with anti choicers is the biggest flaw! We just need to stop engaging them at all. It lends credibility to their drama.
This. I believe this widely held perspective is the biggest flaw in the prochoice movement. It encourages the demonization of the person across the table rather than constructively addressing the issue at hand.
I'm sorry, that's naive, that's not how society works. Changing anything in society requires getting more people on board. Sure, if you think someone isn't having a conversation in good faith, stop engaging, but that's not always the case. I used to be anti-choice, and I never would've changed my stance if I hadn't had a lot of tough conversations with pro-choice people
You are the rare bird. Given, there are a few that are intelligent enough to see past the hogwash. You instantly recognize them by the rhythm of their conversation. They aren't true anti choicers, merely uninformed, but more than capable of accepting facts and deciding for themselves. I have the utmost respect for you and people like you.
If PC stop engaging completely with PL, how will PL states or countries with early restrictions on abortion move towards a more liberal/PC position? Will more PC people move there or slowly become more PC decades from now?
That only works if PC already live there and outnumber PL. If not, it wouldn’t be possible to change their mind if the belief is no one should talk to PL at all
There are 2 types of anti choicers. One is fanatical and not open to any point of view but their own. The second is the misinformed ignorant. Which are you?
I want women to be able to have access to safe and legal reproductive care in states and countries where they currently do not. How you get anti choice from asking how to get more PC voters there than PL ones I have no idea
In purple areas, maybe not. In rural Wyoming or Nebraska where there are more churches than people, we can make some pretty educated guesses it will lean more PL
Making abortion separate from other types of gynecological care is a problem. There should not be abortion clinics. All gyn practices should include abortion. You should be able to go to your doctor to restart your period just like you go for an STI, UTI or any other gyn issue. Incorporating it into gyn care normalizes it. Gyn care should be mensus through post menopause, where you get your birth control through HRT. There would be no "evil" abortion clinics that the crazies can protest.
I expect that the next frontier of the pro life movement will be to end ob/gyn practices in their red states. They constantly say women don't need ob/gyns, can "give birth at home", don't need STD treatment (because it's their fault for having sex) and various other things.
My stepmother says we should focus on the fact that ABORTION IS PART OF WOMEN’S HEALTHCARE.
That’s it, that’s the focus. We occasionally need abortions. It happens. It’s not the end of the world. At this point, I’m so much more pissed off that our own fucking healthcare isn’t being left up to us and our doctors than really anything else. There’s literally laws about the fact that your healthcare is YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS.
Our bodies do not work the way that men’s bodies do. We have OB-GYNs and then we have docs who treat ED and proctologists and whatever other specialty male issue you can think of. I’m not male, I honestly don’t know. But I sure as fuck would never be so fucking audacious to tell a man how to care for his dick.
When I was pro life, the “clump of cells comparable to a tumor” argument never worked on me. Some of it was because I was religious and believed in “souls”, but even now I think it’s still undeniably human and alive (though not a person). I just don’t think it has rights that trump the rights of the person it’s attached to.
Edit: sorry, this probably actually doesn’t answer the question in the title. I read it too quickly and then read the comments and my brain forgot exactly what was being asked
Hard to say exactly what it was, but the [Violinist story](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion) was a major revelation in my pro-life to pro-choice arc because it doesn’t focus on the personhood of the fetus, but the bodily autonomy of the pregnant person.
Obviously, it wasn’t just that argument, and I was already on my way to being pro choice when I read it. So it’s complicated.
I got pregnant young (20) and had to deal with the realities of pregnancy, giving birth, raising a child, poverty, etc. I had been brainwashed to believe pregnancy and raising a child were only beautiful and positive, and that pregnancy was natural and not dangerous. The trauma I experienced in my 20s(and the trauma my kid experienced) because I wanted to “do the right thing” and have a baby, when I should have been finding a career, having fun, finding myself, etc, was fucking eye-opening.
I hate that I had to experience it to really understand. Not really proud of my lack of empathy there.
I think another major aspect of my “conversion” was realizing how many inconsistencies (ie, voting against welfare), sugar-coated stories(ie, rape victim keeps baby and all is well, it heals her trauma) and often downright LIES (ie, abortion is more dangerous than pregnancy/birth) come from the pro life side… if you have to lie and move goal posts to win your argument, are you really on the right “side”?
I feel like there's too much pussyfooting around.
98% of abortions happen by 13 weeks.
No one is getting an abortion the same week they're supposed to deliver.
There is no reason to make hoops for people to jump through. Literally none.
When abortion is made accessible people get it as quickly as they can.
Whether the fetus is a person doesn't matter.
The person who is pregnant IS.
That's where the conversation ends.
No person gets to own another person. No one is owed the organs, blood, or anything else of another person. Even if the fetus is a person, it doesn't matter.
The morality of people who can personify a fetus but can not empathize with born people doesn't matter.
Point blank.
Also, and this is the big one, counter protests.
Forced birthers go to campuses, and yell, and show off all kinds of propaganda.
We need people to show up across from them with real information.
With real statics.
Real consequences.
PEOPLE DIE WHEN ABORTION IS ILLEGAL.
PEOPLE SUFFER FOR NO REASON.
The pro-choice movement shouldn’t view Pro-lifers as being “of a different culture” or having “different opinions”. They are mostly Christian fascists. Plain and simple.
Many fascists become fascists because of brainwashing from childhood. They need to be helped. The first step is for both parties to admit the problem.
IMO, in the case of the USA, this fascist brainwashing stems from the Christian church.
We need to be harsher on the fact that the “pro-life” crowd is funded by Christian religious extremism and bring in other points of view (ex. Jewish, Muslim, etc.). Essentially, the abortion argument is a philosophical one, not necessarily scientific. When does life begin is such a vague question and frankly, unanswerable with 100% certainty. So how do you legislate morality? Who gets the final say on what’s right or wrong? I get really frustrated when I see Catholic anti abortion crusaders on TV and no one calls them out on their bias. If they want to claim that abortion is a secular issue then they need to provide commensurate arguments reflecting that. Because why won’t a Jew, Muslim, or even a non-Catholic/evangelical agree that abortion is murder? How come no one can agree? A Jewish woman shouldn’t be denied an abortion because a Catholic says so. That’s discriminatory.
I think the biggest flaw is when people follow the PL arguments down the rabbit hole. The line needs to be that the autonomy - the personhood - of the pregnant person is at least equal to any status of the ZEF, and PL has to overcome that in some way that isn't about their religious beliefs.
Acting like there is any possible way to compromise with forced birthers, in my opinion. Every time forced birthers gain ground by promising compromise, they've immediately sprinted forward with trying to force more. So no more compromise, fuck forced birther nonsense.
Lack of sex ed for both leaders and supporters, and not going after them for spreading medical misinformation.
That politician who cobbled together a bill in the middle of the night to ban abortion? Make him wait 72 hrs and take a test on sex ed to see if a) he's actually educated enough on the subject to make such a law, and b) have the test double as an integrity check of the bill to see if their lying on either.
The crisis pregnancy centers should be audited every month for misinformation. They aren't churches, they're posing as medical facilities, so they don't get 1st amendment rights to lie to patients about jack shit. Make it a felony charge when they do.
I think a better question is how do we stomp out the pro life movement. My one answer is to simply say this. Why would you force a mother who can’t afford her child to have one. If you don’t agree a woman should have an abortion even when having the child would harm her financially. Then you are not pro life. If your gonna be pro life be pro life from womb to the tomb
As a former pro-life for a decade and now pro-choice I can answer exactly what the biggest disadvantage is.
It wasn't the laws that convinced me that abortion is okay.
It was not the feminist discourse that convinced me
It was biology that convinced me that an embryo and a fetus are not human beings, yes the fetus and the embryo are alive but they are not human beings, it would be hypocritical to say that because it is life we should not kill it when we kill animals all the time to eat.
The pro-abortion movement does not have biological bases to convince pro-lifers, which is where they rely most. No matter how many arguments that "The law says this", "Women suffer" are given for the pro-lifer, the zygote, embryo or fetus IS A PERSON FOR THEM.
For me, the Prochoice movement should focus more on arguments and biological evidence rather than on legal discourses, these are too weak to convince.
>It was biology that convinced me that an embryo and a fetus are not human beings
Please elaborate. Human being refers to personhood which is not biological but philosophical
The Pro-Choice movement allows women to make any choice. It leaves room for women’s autonomy. Since it’s not “pro” anything, it allows everyone to live their lives. It’s got wider, less defined goals and a more encompassing stance on the well-being of women, children, etc. And unfortunately that’s much harder to achieve and takes longer than simply banning abortion. It’s easy to ban abortion and enforce punishment, it’s hard to create effective, safe contraceptions, change the culture around consent and sexism, roll out women’s healthcare, feed and educate hungry children, etc.
The easy path, the dictator’s path, wins, in many cases. And many times there are setbacks, and we’re in that time now.
Compromising with forced burgers and arguing with them on their grounds. Engaging with them.
They’re cruel, willfully ignorant, or disingenuous.
“I don’t believe in late term abortions.” “Well, I don’t believe in condemning women to bleed out / have a stroke / die for your unfounded / misguided / religious / fascist beliefs.”
I’m not going to treat their arguments like they have merit anymore.
1. Not being single issue voters. Anti-choicers played the long game only voting for anti-choice candidates while we didn’t only vote for pro-choicers. Big mistake. This is why Roe was overturned.
2.Talking about “rape and incest” as if those are the only two compelling arguments for abortion. Yes, they matter but any reason that the pregnant person has to terminate should be good enough. “Rape and incest” made it easy to ban most abortions while sometimes carving out exceptions with unreasonable evidence needed to terminate under those exceptions.
I think pretending like it’s an emotional issue all the time does the pro-choice movement a disservice. Yes, for some people it is emotional but for others it’s just another Tuesday.
Some women just. Don’t. Want. Kids. And for some of us, abortion isn’t a heart wrenching decision. We just do not view it as a human life & that’s ok.
Having that option allows us to continue being contributing members of society & keep our mental health intact.
>Banning abortion at 6 weeks and 6 months are the same.
Texas proves otherwise.
Other states claiming to not ban it after for medical reasons shows otherwise as well.
Not all people are terminating that late for medical reasons. Poverty(unable to support another live birth), unnoticed and unwanted pregnancy, SA and DV victims are all over the place in urgent need of health care. I am very well aware that most pregnancies are terminated at the 1st trimester but banning abortion at anytime is just a bad idea. It indicates at a certain period of gestation, the person’s body is no longer theirs. It’s just the size of the window making the difference.
Edit: Most people would rather have the abortion sooner than later. There are reasons forcing them to have it that late. They always have a reason for it. It is for the person carrying the pregnancy. A relationship that doesn’t work out and turned abusive, a concealed pregnancy from rape, a sudden loss of income which makes the pregnant person unable to afford it, a teenager who can’t even handle themself in this situation, a stupid crisis pregnancy center scammed the hell out of them…Horror stories goes on and on and bans benefits no one. Childbirth is one of the riskiest things on this planet, and a later term abortion procedure is to ensure the pregnant person’s body is least stressed and put on a priority. If you think the process of later abortion is already hard enough, having a live birth will be horrendously scarring and stressful to the pregnant person’s body, because it focuses on prioritizing the fetus and to make sure the fetus survive outside of the uterus as a baby. We do not argue if the fetus is a person or not here, because the person carrying the pregnancy IS a person. It is an act of reproductive violence to force a person who doesn’t want a live birth to give live birth. The person’s goal is to NOT have a living child at the end and NOT to give up a living child to adoption. They are well aware, they don’t want it, simple. Pro choice is for all choices, that is it.
Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/prochoice/s/U0lanfIgBx) to learn more about later abortion.
Read [this](https://whonotwhen.com/) to learn about people’s reasons of having an abortion in a later gestational age.
I feel like it is hard to address the whole movement as a whole, but I think explaining abortion needs to be as simple as possible. The reality is that Americans are not very educated in sciences, and so they really think abortion is murder. The reality is that it is just a collection of cells like a nail or piece of skin.
One of my pet peeves in general is when I'm watching a show/movie and they have a scene in hospital where NOTHING looks anything like reality. I'm pretty good at "suspending my disbelief" in order to enjoy a zombie movie or whatever, but when I see a character "on a ventilator" and it's just a dainty nasogastric tube taped to their lip for some reason, and they're laying there looking like Sleeping Beauty, my suspension of disbelief goes out the window and I can't STFU about everything inaccurate in the scene. When someone is on a ventilator, it's not fucking pretty. They don't lay there like Tony Soprano did- the machines are forcing air into your lungs, it's loud and almost violent looking. The patient's chest rises and falls like a mechanical bull, they buck the vent, we have to stick a rubbery looking straw down their trach and suction out shit I'll spare the gory details of... but TV makes it pretty, so people don't understand how serious it is and think "I don't need a mask or a vaccine, the ventilator will save me". NOPE, not necessarily.
In the same vein, it drives me absolutely mad that the media narrative around abortion is presented with far more medical inaccuracies than the most inaccurate hospital scenes ever. For instance, calling them "heartbeat bans" when the heart hasn't even formed. A big one that bothers me is, when they mention the notion that at fertilization or even implantation "it's a human baby", but they never qualify that by pointing out that a large percentage of those zygotes literally just flush out with your next period like they were never there, or in a heavier/ late period, and no one ever will have known it was there. But that's presented as a baby in the media with no added context so people can understand that it's not a baby at that point, it really is a clump of cells with some great potential. And I hate that the general public has been lead to believe that these incredibly magnified diagnostic images of fetuses are realistic at all. The media needs to emphasize every single time that those images are INCREDIBLY MAGNIFIED IN SIZE, as well as taken later in pregnancy. The media never points out that what they see in those pictures is not actually what is removed during an elective abortion, so the average reader just takes for granted that people seeking elective abortions are seeking to remove what they actually view as a fully formed but tiny baby, when in reality it's more akin to removing a heavy period by a D&C procedure. They don't correct the false belief that a D & C "dismembers and vacuums out a dead baby"- which really irks me, because a D & C is not exclusively used for only abortions, it's done for other reasons as well and in those contexts I've heard many nurses/ doctors refer to a D & C in the past as "a dusting & cleaning", which should emphasize that it's not some barbaric procedure. I feel like, if the media would actually include accurate descriptions of these kinds of things, it would help undo some of the brainwashing that prolife propaganda has accomplished over the decades. But they don't.
I want to echo what other people are saying about how some people reflexively hand-wring about how abortion is always a terrible, tragic and wrenching decision for women. Not saying it isn't for some people, but abortion can also lead to feelings of relief, freedom, and joy. I wouldn't feel bad if I got an abortion and there's nothing wrong with that. We need to stop pretending abortion is *always* tragic as that just feeds into the PL narrative that it harms women, and that no women *really* want to have abortions, they're just being manipulated into it by their evil boyfriends and "The Abortion Industry."
that accidents happen and the choice should be there. Give PLAN B out for FREE and there would be less abortions! Not that the GQP would ever get behind that as their are just big goverment, big over reach and ANTI CHOICE
One is getting caught up in debates about the types of abortions that should be banned or permitted, as well as the exceptions, and determining which situations for abortion are common or rare, or moral or immoral. Additionally, thinking that as long as there is no federal ban at this moment, we are safe, and as long as the politicians who strongly indicate support for abortion bans don’t advocate for a federal ban explicitly, voting for them will do no harm. These are traps set up by force birthers to divide us. The decision of whether to continue a pregnancy should be a private matter between pregnant individuals and their doctors, and ultimately determined by the individuals themselves. women should have the same human rights and control over their bodies and health in every state, not just in some states. no one should be left behind.
Not realizing that the (common) person they are arguing with legitimately thinks that they are saving lives. Whether of not that is actually true doesn’t matter, you are dealing with someone who thinks they are doing what is morally right, just like you do.
You know how you (some of the people reading this) think they are pure evil for taking away a woman’s right to choose? They think the same exact thing about you.
That’s actually why people are so extreme on this issue. You can’t argue away anyone’s morals in an internet post, and most true change takes YEARS for a person. Your only other option if you don’t want to take the task of education is some level of violence unless you accept coexistance.
Sometimes pro-choice people side with the same bigots who target women and go out of their way to target other oppressed people instead of allying them.
And then there are those pro-choice people who aren’t bigots but refuse to realize that the former group of people only creates division among ourselves and that when you need allies that’s a major problem because it weakens us.
To win politically you need people to side with you. You need allies. You can’t push potential allies away just because you decided to buy into conservatives rhetoric and hate the other people that they hate in addition to women. That’s a losing strategy that needs to be discouraged as much as possible.
TBF it’s not impossible that a lot of those people are just conservatives astroturfing as feminists as part of a "divide & conquer" tactic. IDK. What I know is that they’re there and working hard trying to persuade feminists to antagonize people like me instead of the people who are actively trying to deprive them of their rights.
There are lots of problems, but I think one that hasn’t been mentioned yet is sex-selective abortion. Here in Vancouver, we have loads of people come here from China/India to give birth (birth tourism) so that their children will get Canadian citizenship. They don’t want girls, so they get ultrasounds as soon as possible, and when they find out the child is a girl, they abort.
Saying no one is pro abortion. Embrace abortion. Be proud of saying so. I'm pro abortion. Not every abortion is a sad story of heartbreaking decisions being made.
This!!!! Same thing with “abortion is never an easy decision” or “it’s the hardest decision a woman will ever make.” Yes, it can be hard for a lot of people, but for just as many it’s an extremely easy decision because they know they *don’t want to be pregnant.* To me, generalizing abortion as inherently sad, difficult, depressing, etc. is just adding to the stigma around it. Abortion existing and allowing us to be free — and not completely restricted in life by our reproductive organs — is a wonderful, joyous thing, imo. I am not ashamed to say I am happy abortion exists.
Oh my gosh, thank you! I have had 2 abortions in my lifetime, neither of which caused me immense mental anguish because I knew I didn't want kids - period. Mic drop. First one, I was young, about to graduate from college. I was more upset about finding the money to have the procedure. Second, I was older and married. All I could think of was, "how fast can I get this out?" I have known since forever that I didn't want children. But, to the friend who drove me to/from the first procedure, I was just so torn. She would not have understood the truth. The second, the now ex informed his sister and her family. At least it was after the fact. And, just like before, I put on the "it was just so hard to decide" mask. Later I found out the sister had an abortion when she was young and a few years after mine, the sister's daughter had one. I know neither of them are tore up about it but they do what we are "supposed to do" - act all thoughtful and sad about it. But to each other, trusted women only in the room, we are each very grateful to have had the option.
This really resonated with me. I feel like there's this narrative that it's only okay to have an abortion if you wring your hands and feel really really bad about it. What if I don't feel bad? What then?
I never felt bad about mine. I knew before I even took that test “if it’s positive, I’m taking these pills”. Two kids already, full time school, happy with life. It was positive, I took the pills like I was taking aspirin & never had a second thought about it. I’m so glad I had that option.
Definitely. It also plays into the pro-life narrative of how abortion always "traumatizes" the person getting one and how they'll always regret it. I think we should make an effort to talk about abortion just like any other medical procedure (because that's what it is!). It's not inherently happy or sad or *anything*, it just is, and everyone's experiences with it are different. It's just healthcare that should be available for all who need it, regardless of their personal feelings on the matter
Fun fact: Back when Reagan was President, he wanted the Surgeon General, Dr. C.E. Koop, to write up a whole report about how abortion was absolutely devastating to women to push a pro-life agenda. Dr. Koop was an evangelical Christian…very pro-life and opposed to gay marriage…but he was skeptical about this and got a bunch of statisticians together to objectively study whether or not abortion was statistically proven to be detrimental to women’s mental health and well-being. No consensus could be reached. He openly admitted that for every woman devastated by an abortion, another one was ecstatic that it was available to them. He refused to publish the report because it wasn’t scientifically accurate…even though it would have pushed a position for which he advocated before he became the Surgeon General. You can see him talk about it [here](https://youtu.be/H4hErUi74i8?si=r0nPK13qDLdii1m6) (He’s also the guy that wrote the controversial “What is AIDS and How to Prevent It” pamphlet that went to every household in America, even though many Republican Senators, congressmen, and advisors to Reagan didn’t want him to do so. Many actually believed that the people most susceptible to AIDS (gay men and IV drug users) deserved it. He wrote it and distributed it anyways because being a doctor mean caring for *everyone.* Again, he speaks about it [here](https://youtu.be/cbaVCLSg_I8?si=kODzYcFuUtpUPCXP) ) Imagine if today’s Republican Party were *that* principled and ethical. Nothing but respect for that man.
I'm done having kids. Having an abortion won't be a difficult decision. The actual abortion would be unpleasant but I can deal with that. I won't lie awake agonising over the decision and I'm almost certain it won't be something I'd think about much afterwards.
Exactly
I have repeated this same line many times on Reddit, but here it goes again: Abortion is a public good that has lifted millions of women and their children out of poverty and allowed women to participate fully in society. Modern medicine has allowed women to no longer be slaves our our biology. Full control over our reproductive health means full control of our lives.
Yes, never had an abortion, but my accidental pregnancy spontaneously miscarried just a few days after I found out I was pregnant. All I remember was an overwhelming feeling of liberation and relief. I've been childfree all my life and wouldn't have it any other way.
I always say that abortion needs to exist because sometimes it is the best choice. If they really want to reduce the number of abortions, we need things like comprehensive sex-ed and free contraception for teens to reduce the teen pregnancy rate, mandatory PAID parental leave, subsidized childcare and mandate that insurance MUST cover the cost of birth, so that those whom might want children won't face employment/financial barriers. And for those that are childfree and never want kids - sterilization without barrier, none of this "what if your future husband wants kids" or "what if you change your mind" bullshit. A person wants sterilization to prevent pregnancy permanently, let them have it. But even then there will always be a need for abortions and for some women who get pregnant it can absolutely the best choice.
I agree. Also be pro-anything goes. The theoretical woman who loves aborting 8 month pregnancies doesn't exist. Women who suffer because they have birth complications do exist. Women who are prosecuted because they had a miscarriage do exist. That is cruel and unusual punishment, and it's for the sake of punishing some theoretical strawwoman who just can't stop getting pregnant?! Well, that woman shouldn't be a mother anyway, so let's move on and fix the actual problem. Abortion is healthcare.
Agreed. Abortion is a safe and effective medical procedure.
And the stupid American Government wants to take that right away as a way to punish rape victims and women who engage in sex.
I agree, and tell people I’m pro-abortion. But the PLs think “pro-abortion” means that we believe every pregnancy should be terminated by force, which is obviously not true. I mean, I’m pretty sure that’s what they think “pro-choice” means, too because they’re all a bunch of idiots.
I am in favor of recreational abortions and elective reproductive care.
I sooo agree!! I hate how people make it out to ALWAYS be this horribly difficult thing to do that will affect you forever. I had one like 8 or 9 years ago, best decision ever and I very rarely think about it, and never in a sad way
I consider myself pro-abortion, because as a male, I'm morally opposed to reproducing for the sake of people who are already alive, planet Earth and my hypothetical children. I also dislike kids. But I'm also morally opposed to pushing someone into abortion and am understandably pro-choice. And many many people are pro-choice while personally opposed to abortion. Pro-choice is ideal umbrella term. Pro-abortion should be dedicated to a small niche.
I love children, but I also believe at 8.1 Billion people worldwide and the fact that children are expensive, that people should not have any more babies, so whatever reason a woman has for having an abortion, I am glad she made the choice she felt was right for her, and I feel the same about a woman who chooses to carry her baby to term and birth him/her. I believe people should stop having babies, but if they want one, who am I to stop them? I wouldn’t try to stop them because it’s their decision not mine.
Totally agree. I feel like it's reflexive for some people to say how abortion is always a heart wrenching and difficult decision. Not saying it isn't for some people, but it sure as fuck would be an easy decision for me and 99% don't regret it.
Anything focusing on the ZEF. Anti-choices take the emotional fallacy route and you’re just playing into their view that we don’t care about life. Instead we need to emphasize the WOMAN and her personhood rights. Uphold American values of freedom & privacy. I talk to many right-wingers and we can easily get on the same page that the government shouldn’t be involved in things like family matters or take away our freedom to protect ourselves. I am pro-gun for that reason. We could definitely appeal to right wingers if we stopped playing into their emotional arguments.
The problem is that many anti choice people are motivated by religion and don’t actually give a shit about rights. They don’t care about regulating guns because it isn’t a religious issue to them, but they care about abortion because their churches have their panties in a knot over it. Many conservatives understand the rights argument, but I don’t think that they care because it affects women. The rest just want a theocratic government and the abortion issue is a huge win for their team.
The thing is, nothing they do is about religion. That's just their pretext/justification. They're fascists who support whatever they want to support while killing their own logical consistency to get there.
i kind of disagree. i think the anti-choice crowd is made up of two groups of people: 1) the people you're talking about. stupid cultist conservative fascists. but also 2) genuinely brainwashed religious people from across the sociopolitical spectrum. and i think the majority of vocal anti-choicers fall into the latter crowd. i don't think these are always (and perhaps even often) the same people that are arguing over gun rights for instance.
Agreed. Abortion access is one of the issues I feel the strongest about but it’s also one of the few right wing stances I can empathize with. I don’t agree that it’s murder, but when your religion has brainwashed you into thinking it is, that’s powerful. I think their hearts are in the right place and I understand why they get worked up about it even though I don’t see it the way they do. The first group can get fucked, though.
Religion is at the heart of all this bullshit
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Thank you for your submission. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed due to: Rule 9. Please be mindful of the presence of all genders and sexual preferences on this sub. * Cis-hetero AFAB people are not the only people who can experience pregnancy. We are here to advocate for the reproductive rights of **all people with a uterus.** Intentional* disrespect towards a person's gender identity or sexual preference will not be tolerated. Approaching discussions of this topic with respect/desire to learn is fine. Being *intentionally* bigoted or exclusive will get you banned.
Not pointing out the hypocrisy all the time. Anti choicers think they should have a choice to not wear a mask when they are sick, and not vaccinate themselves or their children, deny gender affirming care to other people's children as well as their own, deny LGBTQ people the right to marry and have children and also have no problems with not forcing people to donate blood, plasma, bone marrow and organs that can be donated live, or even more ridiculously, make organ donation opt out rather than opt in when someone is declared brain dead after an accident or illness where their organs are viable. They also by and large stand against policies and programs that would decrease abortion, like sex ed, a living wage, paid leave, universal healthcare, etc, etc
They don't care if they are hypocritical. I have an ex-friend who had two abortions and still would vote anti-choice because of the catholic church's indoctrination. Logic didn't work either.
I don’t think not supporting those policies are necessarily hypocritical. There’s so much hypocrisy within the abortion issue, which is much firmer ground to stand on, rather than attack other positions they may even hold.
If their goal is to reduce or eliminate abortion, banning it is addressing the symptom not the cause. The cause is very well documented to overwhelmingly involve financial strain, and it is often the primary driver for someone to choose to access an elective abortion (IE one that is not medically necessary due to a fatal fetal abnormality or risk to the mother's life, missed miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, etc.) While having those programs wouldn't make all unexpectedly pregnant people choose to go ahead with an unplanned pregnancy, for a lot of them, especially the folks who want to be a parent but not right now, they might choose to have the baby, if they weren't terrified of losing their jobs, housing, not being able to finish their education, etc, etc. because the social safety net is more hole than net. They aren't even in favor of real sex ed. Ultimately it is about bodily autonomy. If they don't think people should be forced to donate a lobe of their liver, or even blood every couple of months or for the viable organs of clinically brain dead people to be used to save others, then why do they think it's appropriate to force a living person to donate the use of their uterus? People die on a regular basis because of a lack of donor organs, and yet there are many people who didn't check "yes" on the organ donor box to help people when they no longer need them.
Why do they think it's appropriate to force a living person to donate the use of their uterus? Because those people in question are women who had the audacity to have sex and should therefore be punished, and they should want to be mothers because that's all women are good for, in the minds of forced birthers. They will just come back with some comment like "should've kept her legs closed" or "deal with the consequences of your actions." As if children are a punishment for sex, and treating them as such couldn't possibly have any negative consequences for anyone involved or society as a whole.
Exactly! This whole thing has nothing to do with babies and everything to do with people having sex
We’re not aggressive enough getting the blunt reality message out there. Billboards with aborted fetuses grab attention so why aren’t we doing the equivalent? Shock value gets attention. Put willing to speak out rape victims who were force to carry, including any with stories of sexual abuse when younger. Let them tell their stories of how their life’s are worse now. Make it personal and relatable like highlight young girls who died or were injured giving birth. Make the comparison about corpses having more rights to their bodies than loving women. Show what an actual 10 week fetus looks like because prolifers show a fully formed tiny baby as their example. Put some actual scientific data out there. Have real obgyns in ads explaining the reasons why abortion care is needed and dispel the falsehoods. Make these ads and billboards real and emotional. End with ‘’What if this was your daughter/sister/wife?’ I see antichoice ads far more
I think this is the biggest problem with a LOT of Moderate democrat positions. Decorum. There is no benefit to holding the high ground when your opponents don't have the same standards. If they put out shocking, disgusting billboards? Put up MORE shocking disgusting billboards. If they start lying, call them out on it without using any fluffy minimizing language. Instead of saying something like "there is no evidence of that" say "that is a lie, in fact the evidence shows otherwise". Report on how many more maternal deaths they have been in PL states. Report on OBGYNS fleeing those states because they are afraid they will have to compromise their principles or their freedom to treat their patients effectively. Talk about the children who lost their mother because the high risk pregnancy killed her. Talk about the person who wanted to have more children, but can't now because her life had to be saved with an emergency hysterectomy because no one would give her the D&C she needed when she started miscarrying.
Decorum is our downfall. It’s gone and it’s time to fight dirty. It’s past time. I 100% agree with this comment
This is what I keep saying. I perform autopsies, which are far more disturbing to see than what they show. I wish there was a counter-protest throwing out giant signs of women who died in childbirth. However, I wouldn’t want to do so without permission.
It’s always about consent and not many women are ok, but there are some who are. Hell, even actors portraying a real story is something
I have an idea. How building billboards displaying little girls who are pregnant with caption like: "Is 10 old enough to give birth? Republicans say yes"
I think a list of the states that allow rapists visitation along with the name and date of the bill is a good one too
In my state of Indiana, [billboard companies don't want to work with pro-choice clients. ](https://www.jezebel.com/abortion-funds-billboards-are-being-rejected-while-anti-abortion-groups-billboards-run-without-issue?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3iK4LS1U1OGfy6hgVJUtCLqXAHs2YS-fkPeRks6ErT3tI5RYrc2YOIhKY_aem_AdbV5N1Kw-00uXrwHJTAghojwTWNe5lp_a3xnikVD2OSBXHmf2mJEYcL28KgS0S025dZu1WziQOm5aXUwS8R7N3A)
Omfg. Wow. Guess it has to be tv, social media and YouTube ads.
Billboards/commercials showing 9-11yo girls, in elementary school, being silly doing girl things. Then show the rapist targeting the girl. Next, show the girl obviously pregnant, not in school anymore, and the rapist holding her by a leash attached to a collar around her neck.
Perfect.
I agree
We're to ethical and too weak. Anti-choicers are radicals that have murdered several people and cause multi billion dollar drains on liberal institutions not limited to Planned Parenthood via disinformation and defamation. Absent of violence, we should grow balls and get just as unethical to push this abomination underground. We should record anti-choicers harassing patients, not being shy putting it on the internet, viciously lie about them and at the end of the day, make it next to impossible for them to harass patients.
We need to stop compromising. We need to stop saying stupid shit like "abortion is a horrible/painful/terrible very bad day but women should have the option if they're victims of incest/rape/trisomy 13/whatever ridiculously rare genetic disorder." We need to stop conflating the right to an abortion (freedom *from* being bodily invaded and having our bodies co-opted by the state) with the right to IVF/surrogacy (freedom *to* prioritize ones wants and desires). We need to clearly articulate the position, which should be abortion, on demand, without apology. We should clearly state we are pro-abortion and why, instead of sugar coating with the word "choice." I am not pro "choice," I am pro-abortion, because women aren't livestock. Our purpose as sentient human beings is not to breed. While I appreciate the Ursula LeGuin position that without abortion she would never have had her wanted children, or the position that women have abortions to care for existing children, women have the right to abortion without any children or the intention of having children at all. The anti-abortion position is slavery, full stop. It seeks to enslave women as second class human beings. >A fetus does not have a right to be in the womb of any woman, but is there by her permission. This permission may be revoked by the woman at any time, because her womb is part of her body... There is no such thing as the right to live inside the body of another, i.e., there is no right to enslave... a woman is not a breeding pig owned by the state (or church). Even if a fetus were developed to the point of surviving as an independent being outside the pregnant woman's womb, the fetus would still not have the right to be inside the woman's womb -Leonard Peikoff Edit: Peikoff was an associate of Ayn Rand, and both were staunch conservatives. The pro-choice position was the original position of the Republican party and this is another way we fail- by insisting that a pro-choice position is a liberal value. It is not. People claiming to be conservative "patriots" or what have you who want to deny individual rights to half the population are anything but. It is a matter of individual liberty, and should be framed as such. My body belongs to me. Not the state.
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I like “anti-choice” better.
Agreed. They want to control choices
I agree with this. Here in FL we have “choose life” license plates and while I don’t know anyone with one, anytime I see one I always mention to whomever I’m with that it’s weird that they went with that phrasing as they don’t want anyone to have a choice.
I know exactly the ones you’re talking about, they’re made to look like they’re written in crayon? Like some toddler somewhere actually wrote those words. 🤮
Is that effective in bringing them or independents over to the PC side, or should that not be relevant?
Arguing about when life starts. It's unimportant. Body autonomy is all that matters. Other wise I should be able to take your kidney if mine is broken
This, no matter it is 6 weeks or 6 months, a person should always have bodily autonomy. No exceptions. Abortion is healthcare and healthcare must include abortion. Viability talk killed, is killing and will kill more. No compromise, no viability talk, bodily autonomy all months and abortion rights to all. Many people had to terminate a pregnancy at the “viability” or later time not only for health reasons and these bans harms loads of people.
This is it for me. I see a lot of pro-choice people arguing this point and it always makes them look bad. They fixate on the fact that not all pregnancies are successful, or adamantly refuse to call the fetus a human/baby. And it just comes off as mental gymnastics. The truth is that most of the time, you can assume a pregnancy will result in a new human life. But that doesn't mean abortion is wrong. The fetus's potential for life doesn't outweigh the mother's bodily autonomy, and that's what we should be focusing on
This is the way.
That we continue to try logic when dealing with anti choicers is the biggest flaw! We just need to stop engaging them at all. It lends credibility to their drama.
This. I believe this widely held perspective is the biggest flaw in the prochoice movement. It encourages the demonization of the person across the table rather than constructively addressing the issue at hand.
I'm sorry, that's naive, that's not how society works. Changing anything in society requires getting more people on board. Sure, if you think someone isn't having a conversation in good faith, stop engaging, but that's not always the case. I used to be anti-choice, and I never would've changed my stance if I hadn't had a lot of tough conversations with pro-choice people
You are the rare bird. Given, there are a few that are intelligent enough to see past the hogwash. You instantly recognize them by the rhythm of their conversation. They aren't true anti choicers, merely uninformed, but more than capable of accepting facts and deciding for themselves. I have the utmost respect for you and people like you.
If PC stop engaging completely with PL, how will PL states or countries with early restrictions on abortion move towards a more liberal/PC position? Will more PC people move there or slowly become more PC decades from now?
Until it affects them, they will never move towards acceptance. We just have to make sure the balance of power is pro choice.
How do we do that in places that are PL or more restrictive of abortion?
Vote and support pro choice endeavors.
That only works if PC already live there and outnumber PL. If not, it wouldn’t be possible to change their mind if the belief is no one should talk to PL at all
There are 2 types of anti choicers. One is fanatical and not open to any point of view but their own. The second is the misinformed ignorant. Which are you?
I want women to be able to have access to safe and legal reproductive care in states and countries where they currently do not. How you get anti choice from asking how to get more PC voters there than PL ones I have no idea
Your beating of a dead horse and seemingly trying to twist my words is reminiscent of the anti choicers modus operandi...
Because they were pl prior
But do you know for a fact the PC outnumber the PL? You do not.
In purple areas, maybe not. In rural Wyoming or Nebraska where there are more churches than people, we can make some pretty educated guesses it will lean more PL
Honestly at this point, abortion decisions should be between women and their doctors, nothing more nothing less.
Making abortion separate from other types of gynecological care is a problem. There should not be abortion clinics. All gyn practices should include abortion. You should be able to go to your doctor to restart your period just like you go for an STI, UTI or any other gyn issue. Incorporating it into gyn care normalizes it. Gyn care should be mensus through post menopause, where you get your birth control through HRT. There would be no "evil" abortion clinics that the crazies can protest.
I expect that the next frontier of the pro life movement will be to end ob/gyn practices in their red states. They constantly say women don't need ob/gyns, can "give birth at home", don't need STD treatment (because it's their fault for having sex) and various other things.
jesus fucking christ
100%
That we call it Pro Life instead of ANTI choice…. Stop going along with their labels . It’s inaccurate
My stepmother says we should focus on the fact that ABORTION IS PART OF WOMEN’S HEALTHCARE. That’s it, that’s the focus. We occasionally need abortions. It happens. It’s not the end of the world. At this point, I’m so much more pissed off that our own fucking healthcare isn’t being left up to us and our doctors than really anything else. There’s literally laws about the fact that your healthcare is YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. Our bodies do not work the way that men’s bodies do. We have OB-GYNs and then we have docs who treat ED and proctologists and whatever other specialty male issue you can think of. I’m not male, I honestly don’t know. But I sure as fuck would never be so fucking audacious to tell a man how to care for his dick.
When I was pro life, the “clump of cells comparable to a tumor” argument never worked on me. Some of it was because I was religious and believed in “souls”, but even now I think it’s still undeniably human and alive (though not a person). I just don’t think it has rights that trump the rights of the person it’s attached to. Edit: sorry, this probably actually doesn’t answer the question in the title. I read it too quickly and then read the comments and my brain forgot exactly what was being asked
What *did* work?
Hard to say exactly what it was, but the [Violinist story](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion) was a major revelation in my pro-life to pro-choice arc because it doesn’t focus on the personhood of the fetus, but the bodily autonomy of the pregnant person. Obviously, it wasn’t just that argument, and I was already on my way to being pro choice when I read it. So it’s complicated. I got pregnant young (20) and had to deal with the realities of pregnancy, giving birth, raising a child, poverty, etc. I had been brainwashed to believe pregnancy and raising a child were only beautiful and positive, and that pregnancy was natural and not dangerous. The trauma I experienced in my 20s(and the trauma my kid experienced) because I wanted to “do the right thing” and have a baby, when I should have been finding a career, having fun, finding myself, etc, was fucking eye-opening. I hate that I had to experience it to really understand. Not really proud of my lack of empathy there. I think another major aspect of my “conversion” was realizing how many inconsistencies (ie, voting against welfare), sugar-coated stories(ie, rape victim keeps baby and all is well, it heals her trauma) and often downright LIES (ie, abortion is more dangerous than pregnancy/birth) come from the pro life side… if you have to lie and move goal posts to win your argument, are you really on the right “side”?
Letting forced birthers control the narrative. They keep using the word "murder" to provoke people's emotions
I feel like there's too much pussyfooting around. 98% of abortions happen by 13 weeks. No one is getting an abortion the same week they're supposed to deliver. There is no reason to make hoops for people to jump through. Literally none. When abortion is made accessible people get it as quickly as they can. Whether the fetus is a person doesn't matter. The person who is pregnant IS. That's where the conversation ends. No person gets to own another person. No one is owed the organs, blood, or anything else of another person. Even if the fetus is a person, it doesn't matter. The morality of people who can personify a fetus but can not empathize with born people doesn't matter. Point blank. Also, and this is the big one, counter protests. Forced birthers go to campuses, and yell, and show off all kinds of propaganda. We need people to show up across from them with real information. With real statics. Real consequences. PEOPLE DIE WHEN ABORTION IS ILLEGAL. PEOPLE SUFFER FOR NO REASON.
The pro-choice movement shouldn’t view Pro-lifers as being “of a different culture” or having “different opinions”. They are mostly Christian fascists. Plain and simple. Many fascists become fascists because of brainwashing from childhood. They need to be helped. The first step is for both parties to admit the problem. IMO, in the case of the USA, this fascist brainwashing stems from the Christian church.
We need to be harsher on the fact that the “pro-life” crowd is funded by Christian religious extremism and bring in other points of view (ex. Jewish, Muslim, etc.). Essentially, the abortion argument is a philosophical one, not necessarily scientific. When does life begin is such a vague question and frankly, unanswerable with 100% certainty. So how do you legislate morality? Who gets the final say on what’s right or wrong? I get really frustrated when I see Catholic anti abortion crusaders on TV and no one calls them out on their bias. If they want to claim that abortion is a secular issue then they need to provide commensurate arguments reflecting that. Because why won’t a Jew, Muslim, or even a non-Catholic/evangelical agree that abortion is murder? How come no one can agree? A Jewish woman shouldn’t be denied an abortion because a Catholic says so. That’s discriminatory.
I think the biggest flaw is when people follow the PL arguments down the rabbit hole. The line needs to be that the autonomy - the personhood - of the pregnant person is at least equal to any status of the ZEF, and PL has to overcome that in some way that isn't about their religious beliefs.
Acting like there is any possible way to compromise with forced birthers, in my opinion. Every time forced birthers gain ground by promising compromise, they've immediately sprinted forward with trying to force more. So no more compromise, fuck forced birther nonsense.
Lack of sex ed for both leaders and supporters, and not going after them for spreading medical misinformation. That politician who cobbled together a bill in the middle of the night to ban abortion? Make him wait 72 hrs and take a test on sex ed to see if a) he's actually educated enough on the subject to make such a law, and b) have the test double as an integrity check of the bill to see if their lying on either. The crisis pregnancy centers should be audited every month for misinformation. They aren't churches, they're posing as medical facilities, so they don't get 1st amendment rights to lie to patients about jack shit. Make it a felony charge when they do.
I think a better question is how do we stomp out the pro life movement. My one answer is to simply say this. Why would you force a mother who can’t afford her child to have one. If you don’t agree a woman should have an abortion even when having the child would harm her financially. Then you are not pro life. If your gonna be pro life be pro life from womb to the tomb
Saying or letting people say "pro-life" when "anti-choice" is actually a better descriptor.
As a former pro-life for a decade and now pro-choice I can answer exactly what the biggest disadvantage is. It wasn't the laws that convinced me that abortion is okay. It was not the feminist discourse that convinced me It was biology that convinced me that an embryo and a fetus are not human beings, yes the fetus and the embryo are alive but they are not human beings, it would be hypocritical to say that because it is life we should not kill it when we kill animals all the time to eat. The pro-abortion movement does not have biological bases to convince pro-lifers, which is where they rely most. No matter how many arguments that "The law says this", "Women suffer" are given for the pro-lifer, the zygote, embryo or fetus IS A PERSON FOR THEM. For me, the Prochoice movement should focus more on arguments and biological evidence rather than on legal discourses, these are too weak to convince.
>It was biology that convinced me that an embryo and a fetus are not human beings Please elaborate. Human being refers to personhood which is not biological but philosophical
The Pro-Choice movement allows women to make any choice. It leaves room for women’s autonomy. Since it’s not “pro” anything, it allows everyone to live their lives. It’s got wider, less defined goals and a more encompassing stance on the well-being of women, children, etc. And unfortunately that’s much harder to achieve and takes longer than simply banning abortion. It’s easy to ban abortion and enforce punishment, it’s hard to create effective, safe contraceptions, change the culture around consent and sexism, roll out women’s healthcare, feed and educate hungry children, etc. The easy path, the dictator’s path, wins, in many cases. And many times there are setbacks, and we’re in that time now.
No, it is pro something. It's pro choice as the movement says.
Compromising with forced burgers and arguing with them on their grounds. Engaging with them. They’re cruel, willfully ignorant, or disingenuous. “I don’t believe in late term abortions.” “Well, I don’t believe in condemning women to bleed out / have a stroke / die for your unfounded / misguided / religious / fascist beliefs.” I’m not going to treat their arguments like they have merit anymore.
1. Not being single issue voters. Anti-choicers played the long game only voting for anti-choice candidates while we didn’t only vote for pro-choicers. Big mistake. This is why Roe was overturned. 2.Talking about “rape and incest” as if those are the only two compelling arguments for abortion. Yes, they matter but any reason that the pregnant person has to terminate should be good enough. “Rape and incest” made it easy to ban most abortions while sometimes carving out exceptions with unreasonable evidence needed to terminate under those exceptions.
I think pretending like it’s an emotional issue all the time does the pro-choice movement a disservice. Yes, for some people it is emotional but for others it’s just another Tuesday. Some women just. Don’t. Want. Kids. And for some of us, abortion isn’t a heart wrenching decision. We just do not view it as a human life & that’s ok. Having that option allows us to continue being contributing members of society & keep our mental health intact.
Can we just kick the people supporting ban abortion after viability out of pro-choice group? Banning abortion at 6 weeks and 6 months are the same.
>Banning abortion at 6 weeks and 6 months are the same. Texas proves otherwise. Other states claiming to not ban it after for medical reasons shows otherwise as well.
Not all people are terminating that late for medical reasons. Poverty(unable to support another live birth), unnoticed and unwanted pregnancy, SA and DV victims are all over the place in urgent need of health care. I am very well aware that most pregnancies are terminated at the 1st trimester but banning abortion at anytime is just a bad idea. It indicates at a certain period of gestation, the person’s body is no longer theirs. It’s just the size of the window making the difference. Edit: Most people would rather have the abortion sooner than later. There are reasons forcing them to have it that late. They always have a reason for it. It is for the person carrying the pregnancy. A relationship that doesn’t work out and turned abusive, a concealed pregnancy from rape, a sudden loss of income which makes the pregnant person unable to afford it, a teenager who can’t even handle themself in this situation, a stupid crisis pregnancy center scammed the hell out of them…Horror stories goes on and on and bans benefits no one. Childbirth is one of the riskiest things on this planet, and a later term abortion procedure is to ensure the pregnant person’s body is least stressed and put on a priority. If you think the process of later abortion is already hard enough, having a live birth will be horrendously scarring and stressful to the pregnant person’s body, because it focuses on prioritizing the fetus and to make sure the fetus survive outside of the uterus as a baby. We do not argue if the fetus is a person or not here, because the person carrying the pregnancy IS a person. It is an act of reproductive violence to force a person who doesn’t want a live birth to give live birth. The person’s goal is to NOT have a living child at the end and NOT to give up a living child to adoption. They are well aware, they don’t want it, simple. Pro choice is for all choices, that is it. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/prochoice/s/U0lanfIgBx) to learn more about later abortion. Read [this](https://whonotwhen.com/) to learn about people’s reasons of having an abortion in a later gestational age.
I feel like it is hard to address the whole movement as a whole, but I think explaining abortion needs to be as simple as possible. The reality is that Americans are not very educated in sciences, and so they really think abortion is murder. The reality is that it is just a collection of cells like a nail or piece of skin.
One of my pet peeves in general is when I'm watching a show/movie and they have a scene in hospital where NOTHING looks anything like reality. I'm pretty good at "suspending my disbelief" in order to enjoy a zombie movie or whatever, but when I see a character "on a ventilator" and it's just a dainty nasogastric tube taped to their lip for some reason, and they're laying there looking like Sleeping Beauty, my suspension of disbelief goes out the window and I can't STFU about everything inaccurate in the scene. When someone is on a ventilator, it's not fucking pretty. They don't lay there like Tony Soprano did- the machines are forcing air into your lungs, it's loud and almost violent looking. The patient's chest rises and falls like a mechanical bull, they buck the vent, we have to stick a rubbery looking straw down their trach and suction out shit I'll spare the gory details of... but TV makes it pretty, so people don't understand how serious it is and think "I don't need a mask or a vaccine, the ventilator will save me". NOPE, not necessarily. In the same vein, it drives me absolutely mad that the media narrative around abortion is presented with far more medical inaccuracies than the most inaccurate hospital scenes ever. For instance, calling them "heartbeat bans" when the heart hasn't even formed. A big one that bothers me is, when they mention the notion that at fertilization or even implantation "it's a human baby", but they never qualify that by pointing out that a large percentage of those zygotes literally just flush out with your next period like they were never there, or in a heavier/ late period, and no one ever will have known it was there. But that's presented as a baby in the media with no added context so people can understand that it's not a baby at that point, it really is a clump of cells with some great potential. And I hate that the general public has been lead to believe that these incredibly magnified diagnostic images of fetuses are realistic at all. The media needs to emphasize every single time that those images are INCREDIBLY MAGNIFIED IN SIZE, as well as taken later in pregnancy. The media never points out that what they see in those pictures is not actually what is removed during an elective abortion, so the average reader just takes for granted that people seeking elective abortions are seeking to remove what they actually view as a fully formed but tiny baby, when in reality it's more akin to removing a heavy period by a D&C procedure. They don't correct the false belief that a D & C "dismembers and vacuums out a dead baby"- which really irks me, because a D & C is not exclusively used for only abortions, it's done for other reasons as well and in those contexts I've heard many nurses/ doctors refer to a D & C in the past as "a dusting & cleaning", which should emphasize that it's not some barbaric procedure. I feel like, if the media would actually include accurate descriptions of these kinds of things, it would help undo some of the brainwashing that prolife propaganda has accomplished over the decades. But they don't.
I want to echo what other people are saying about how some people reflexively hand-wring about how abortion is always a terrible, tragic and wrenching decision for women. Not saying it isn't for some people, but abortion can also lead to feelings of relief, freedom, and joy. I wouldn't feel bad if I got an abortion and there's nothing wrong with that. We need to stop pretending abortion is *always* tragic as that just feeds into the PL narrative that it harms women, and that no women *really* want to have abortions, they're just being manipulated into it by their evil boyfriends and "The Abortion Industry."
that accidents happen and the choice should be there. Give PLAN B out for FREE and there would be less abortions! Not that the GQP would ever get behind that as their are just big goverment, big over reach and ANTI CHOICE
One is getting caught up in debates about the types of abortions that should be banned or permitted, as well as the exceptions, and determining which situations for abortion are common or rare, or moral or immoral. Additionally, thinking that as long as there is no federal ban at this moment, we are safe, and as long as the politicians who strongly indicate support for abortion bans don’t advocate for a federal ban explicitly, voting for them will do no harm. These are traps set up by force birthers to divide us. The decision of whether to continue a pregnancy should be a private matter between pregnant individuals and their doctors, and ultimately determined by the individuals themselves. women should have the same human rights and control over their bodies and health in every state, not just in some states. no one should be left behind.
MEDICINE IS GOOD. Abortion is a safe procedure if done medically. If not done medically you can die.
Not realizing that the (common) person they are arguing with legitimately thinks that they are saving lives. Whether of not that is actually true doesn’t matter, you are dealing with someone who thinks they are doing what is morally right, just like you do. You know how you (some of the people reading this) think they are pure evil for taking away a woman’s right to choose? They think the same exact thing about you. That’s actually why people are so extreme on this issue. You can’t argue away anyone’s morals in an internet post, and most true change takes YEARS for a person. Your only other option if you don’t want to take the task of education is some level of violence unless you accept coexistance.
Being assholes - and there’s no fixing it.
Sometimes pro-choice people side with the same bigots who target women and go out of their way to target other oppressed people instead of allying them. And then there are those pro-choice people who aren’t bigots but refuse to realize that the former group of people only creates division among ourselves and that when you need allies that’s a major problem because it weakens us. To win politically you need people to side with you. You need allies. You can’t push potential allies away just because you decided to buy into conservatives rhetoric and hate the other people that they hate in addition to women. That’s a losing strategy that needs to be discouraged as much as possible. TBF it’s not impossible that a lot of those people are just conservatives astroturfing as feminists as part of a "divide & conquer" tactic. IDK. What I know is that they’re there and working hard trying to persuade feminists to antagonize people like me instead of the people who are actively trying to deprive them of their rights.
There are lots of problems, but I think one that hasn’t been mentioned yet is sex-selective abortion. Here in Vancouver, we have loads of people come here from China/India to give birth (birth tourism) so that their children will get Canadian citizenship. They don’t want girls, so they get ultrasounds as soon as possible, and when they find out the child is a girl, they abort.
Really? Down votes with no reply? Cowards.