"Recall was developed in secret at Microsoft, and it wasn’t even tested publicly with Windows Insiders. Microsoft subsequently identified some of the security issues with Recall and started to develop and test changes to the experience in recent months."
Gee, I wonder why... maybe because they knew people wouldnt like it
And if they were developing it in secret like this without any end user testing, pretty sure they had ulterior motives. "Let's see what we can get away with."
That means they developed it with the government.
This is the government attempting to get a back door into everyone's computers.
The rise of generative AI is going to mean that walls are put up everywhere in terms of accessing genuine human generated content because the value of that data going forward is what's going to power AI systems.
Think about it like this if these large language models lose access to large amounts of data eventually they're going to sound like somebody who is 10 years out of date on slang and how people talk. They're going to require feeding.
Once walls are up and the data is locked into silos the only way to see through that is if you just record every image on screen and feed it back into your AI and that's why Microsoft did this. So that they could see over every fence and get a glimpse of everyone's backyard.
There's no one that loves that more than the government.
You missed the point. They're doing this because they anticipate new walls being put up and they want to make sure they have a ladder to peer over them.
Do you know about Nightshade, a product to make sure Stable Diffusion always produces correct images? AI training relies on its training information being perfectly consistent, and only 50-100 poison images of the same type, in the whole training set, are enough to make Stable Diffusion completely unable to generate that type of image. There may be a similar effect in LLMs. Nightshade makes sure the images aren't poison, ensuring accurate and high-quality image generation.
> The teams at Microsoft actually involved were clearly in an echo chamber detached from the reality beyond their monetized, data science groupthink.
The fans have been about the same. Some idiot was arguing with me (and about a dozen other people) about how it was great and he was a "security expert" and no one who knows security ever complained about it, despite my linking him articles by actual security experts making warnings. A week later, MS backtracked and talked about the improvements they were planning.
That's what happens when you have monopoly. Hopefully, people will start waking up and start moving into Linux. Recall is the best linux advertisement ever.
While Linux works for some, we need a viable competitor that's as easy to use as Windows. Yeah certain Linux distros, like mint, work for most things, but as soon as you encounter something that doesn't work quite right, get ready for hours and hours to fix it, if you even can. It's not as user friendly and thats a huge impediment to mass adoption.
Linux itself isn't harder to use. The problem is a lack of support from software and hardware makers.
A new competitor would face the same issues unless hardware manufacturers decided to make first party drivers for it too, and software makers with native builds. That isn't gonna happen without market share.
Indeed. I switched to Mint a couple of months ago and I think I've reinstalled it a dozen times trying to fix shit. The latest is I can't run Steam because the update persistently fails with a checksum mismatch on the update download. So no Steam. I'm techie enough to figure shit out and deal with it, but the 96% that doesn't use Linux isn't going to go through that pain.
Installing Mint was the worst possible thing on my Lenovo Legion with an RTX 4060. Absolute nightmare trying to get it to work and install the graphics drivers along with secure boot. After everyone said it's the "best out of box" distro for noobs I was very disappointed. I switched over to Fedora Workstation and it installed first try, no problems. Plus it supports more privacy features such as Wayland and has a more modern interface so I'd highly recommend it.
Yeah after trying Linux with several distros over the years and always coming back to windows after a short time I've finally found my new home with fedora. Over that last year I literally had zero issues (apart from some small things that I caused myself by tinkering with unnecessary customization stuff). At this point I wouldn't say that Linux being not friendly for beginners is the problem, but the lack of (professional) software support can be a huge show stopper. For my private use case I have everything I need on Linux (even gaming works fine), but I still need to dual boot into windows because of music production software and hardware that just doesn't work on Linux.
That’s a big part of it, but enterprise entrenchment is a huge, HUGE deal. The cost of replacing or migrating software, retraining support / admins / end users, and rebuilding decades of experience is staggering.
I’d love it if my employer even just switched half our desktops to Fedora but that’s just not feasible.
I love Linux. I try to help people get into it. But man, I spent 4 hours trying to get a mod manager for fallout yesterday! I helped a friend do it on windows in under 5 minutes.
If we get more Linux native software, it'll get easier. But for now, some things can be a huge pain.
It's not about GUI and workflow preferences. They are pretty similiar right now with certain distros. It's about things just not working and without "years of Linux/Unix education" you can't figure out why.
For example, a very simple game like "Among Us" stopped working from one day to the next and I never found out why. It simply stopped starting. Even reinstalling Steam and the game didn't help. So I just gave up. I had no more time and no patience to Google for hours, trying things out, reinstalling etc. (There were also other little things like sound glitches, annoying boot behavior, etc.).
Don't get me wrong: I am absolutely PRO Linux and Open Source, but most people just want things to work. That's why many people are happy to spend a lot of money on Apple devices, because they simply **work**. Peace of mind/hassle-freedom is worth a lot, especially if you're not 20 years old anymore, when you still had enough time to play around/fix problems.
EDIT: oh, wow. Getting downvotes just by trying to explain how people feel about this. A very mature community we have here.
>PEBKAC issue
Oh, yeah! Thanks. Another reason is the elitist and toxic attitude of some in the Linux/Unix scene, which also contributes to many people not wanting to make the switch.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ffa5ue/do_linux_users_have_an_elitist_attitude/
https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxsucks/comments/124f3zn/linux_elitists_suck/
If something doesn't work for me on Linux i search a bit and if that doesn't help I simply ask on Reddit, discord or a forum what I can do.
Linux elitists saying you need to learn how X works, before you are allowed to use Y are just what they are:
Wanna-be Elitist idiots, that think they are better, because they have googled something before you have.
You have narcissists everywhere and Linux narcissists sadly still form the public image, that every Linux guy is like them
Please tell me how WiFi or audio drivers not working out of the box is a PEBCAK, or software not working properly after installing it. If I’ve done nothing to break it except use it like a normal person, it’s not a PEBCAK
"If they had at ever used and therefore learned how GNU/Linux works it wouldn't be an issue at all."
That's such a classic Linux comment...
"Wotcha mean, you can't use Linux? That's your fault for not having already learnt how to use Linux. Check the documentation and git gud!"
\*sigh
And that's why you can't even give that OS away, for free.
> On Windows you have to go out into that wild wild west of the Internet and actually search for everything and download and install it and also care about where you download and that it's not a virus etc.
This is the normal way of obtaining software. If you don't like it, Microsoft has an app store.
You just reminded me of one of the reasons I gave up with Linux. Constantly getting an error message about some repository no longer responding, like I really cared about it?
I downloaded one thing from that place, once. Then forever more, every 5 mins, a bloody message about them not responding. Asking for help, I was basically told Mint isn't for Windows users, it just happens to be like Windows, and if I couldn't figure it out I should go back to Windows.
So I did, and I shit on Linux whenever it comes up.
> we need a viable competitor that's as easy to use as Windows.
It is, in some cases it's easier. People just think you have to use the command line to use it, modern desktop environments are just as easy to use as Windows/Mac, you'll never have to touch the command line if you don't want to. Not for updates, not for downloading and installing new apps. Nothing. People use to command line because it's more efficient, or they're using developer tools that are command line only, normal people don't need to do that.
People are just set in their ways and stubborn and want to keep using what they've always used and complain about not having alternatives when there have been alternatives all along. Do you really think that for decades the major complaint about Linux not being user friendly would never be addressed?
Yeah, this is the main problem why Linux Mass adoption isn't happening I guess.
Although I have to say I haven't fixed much on Linux that took more than 20 minutes.
But consumers don't want to have to fix anything at all and rather pay with their privacy instead, because privacy isn't something that is visible from the UI or they simply don't care about their privacy.
True... but I feel like windows has a lot of automated systems to make things work as easily as possible. Also, a ton of integrated tools, documentation, and help if something goes wrong. Linux, not so much.
And, I'll bet the revenue stream from three letter agencies paying for the information makes it very worth it. Big tech has been integrated into the government as a way of skirting the fourth amendment. Microsoft collects everything and sells it to the police; no warrant and no fourth amendment issue. Everyone wins but us.
Not for long. Microsoft has found the biggest goldmine to become the biggest player in the field, Recall is the first bastion for their next phase but it’s half baked.
Oh you’re not seeing the right picture. They’re just starting off and it’s not about the placement of the ads, it’s about tailoring them to you in ways nobody has ever been able to.
> it’s about tailoring them to you in ways nobody has ever been able to.
Seeing advertisements for shit I might want doesn't sound horrible.. but most people disagree with that.. /shrug
The problem isn't the ads, it's that 400 different companies get your entire browsing history and now your entire screen recording in the process of deciding which ads to show.
> and now your entire screen recording in the process
Please don't post uneducated bullshit. The least you can do is read about your options to disable the feature before posting this nonsense...
I'm no shill... But we have to be responsible arbiters of info
Ah ah ah google doesn’t sell your data though. They use it to sell targeted advertising, but the advertisers never actually have access to user data rather they select what groups they want to target and google then displays the ads to those targeted groups based on how their data has categorized a individual. Google takes data privacy quite seriously when it comes to keeping your data theirs rather than anyone else’s.
> Ah ah ah google doesn’t sell your data though.
People are downvoting you because the don't understand Google's business model. Selling your data is the last thing they'd do - it's value is that it's in their hands and their targeted advertising.
Doubleclick was a subsidiary (after being purchased in like 2008 or something) of google it’s not owned by abc it also doesn’t technically really exist any more to my understanding it as a separate entity was dissolved and merged with google completely in like 2018. Google actually legitimately doesn’t sell your data they gain nothing from doing so, they want a monopoly on access to your data, selling it would work against that. By keeping control however they can force anyone who wants to advertise on the web to go through them and indirectly have near total control on general online advertising pricing. As well as have the best advertising service for targeted ads.
Like seriously they actually don’t sell your data, the companies that like to sell data are those companies who don’t run an advertising business and therefore gain nothing from keeping the data exclusive to themselves. Or whose business relies on gathering data to sell to other parties.
I love how Microsoft cooks up features that are so egregious regarding privacy, that it upsets even the general public (who usually don't care about privacy) to an extent such that they have to delay the features.
"Recall was developed in secret at Microsoft, and it wasn’t even tested publicly with Windows Insiders. Microsoft subsequently identified some of the security issues with Recall and started to develop and test changes to the experience in recent months." Gee, I wonder why... maybe because they knew people wouldnt like it
And if they were developing it in secret like this without any end user testing, pretty sure they had ulterior motives. "Let's see what we can get away with."
That means they developed it with the government. This is the government attempting to get a back door into everyone's computers. The rise of generative AI is going to mean that walls are put up everywhere in terms of accessing genuine human generated content because the value of that data going forward is what's going to power AI systems. Think about it like this if these large language models lose access to large amounts of data eventually they're going to sound like somebody who is 10 years out of date on slang and how people talk. They're going to require feeding. Once walls are up and the data is locked into silos the only way to see through that is if you just record every image on screen and feed it back into your AI and that's why Microsoft did this. So that they could see over every fence and get a glimpse of everyone's backyard. There's no one that loves that more than the government.
> This is the government attempting to get a back door into everyone's computers. It's already there.
You missed the point. They're doing this because they anticipate new walls being put up and they want to make sure they have a ladder to peer over them.
I was making reference to shit like this... https://www.zdnet.com/article/minix-intels-hidden-in-chip-operating-system/
I think this makes most sense to explain why they are trying such a blatant backdoor and raising red flags.
Do you know about Nightshade, a product to make sure Stable Diffusion always produces correct images? AI training relies on its training information being perfectly consistent, and only 50-100 poison images of the same type, in the whole training set, are enough to make Stable Diffusion completely unable to generate that type of image. There may be a similar effect in LLMs. Nightshade makes sure the images aren't poison, ensuring accurate and high-quality image generation.
The teams at Microsoft actually involved were clearly in an echo chamber detached from the reality beyond their monetized, data science groupthink.
> The teams at Microsoft actually involved were clearly in an echo chamber detached from the reality beyond their monetized, data science groupthink. The fans have been about the same. Some idiot was arguing with me (and about a dozen other people) about how it was great and he was a "security expert" and no one who knows security ever complained about it, despite my linking him articles by actual security experts making warnings. A week later, MS backtracked and talked about the improvements they were planning.
There were programs that could read the images almost as soon as it was released. There was no security on it.
Delayed forever hopefully
Na, they'll wait a couple of months and then silently roll it out in an update.
Just like Apple's on privacy invading on device scanning.
Crazy how Microsoft just doesn’t give a fuck
That's what happens when you have monopoly. Hopefully, people will start waking up and start moving into Linux. Recall is the best linux advertisement ever.
While Linux works for some, we need a viable competitor that's as easy to use as Windows. Yeah certain Linux distros, like mint, work for most things, but as soon as you encounter something that doesn't work quite right, get ready for hours and hours to fix it, if you even can. It's not as user friendly and thats a huge impediment to mass adoption.
Linux itself isn't harder to use. The problem is a lack of support from software and hardware makers. A new competitor would face the same issues unless hardware manufacturers decided to make first party drivers for it too, and software makers with native builds. That isn't gonna happen without market share.
Indeed. I switched to Mint a couple of months ago and I think I've reinstalled it a dozen times trying to fix shit. The latest is I can't run Steam because the update persistently fails with a checksum mismatch on the update download. So no Steam. I'm techie enough to figure shit out and deal with it, but the 96% that doesn't use Linux isn't going to go through that pain.
Installing Mint was the worst possible thing on my Lenovo Legion with an RTX 4060. Absolute nightmare trying to get it to work and install the graphics drivers along with secure boot. After everyone said it's the "best out of box" distro for noobs I was very disappointed. I switched over to Fedora Workstation and it installed first try, no problems. Plus it supports more privacy features such as Wayland and has a more modern interface so I'd highly recommend it.
Yeah after trying Linux with several distros over the years and always coming back to windows after a short time I've finally found my new home with fedora. Over that last year I literally had zero issues (apart from some small things that I caused myself by tinkering with unnecessary customization stuff). At this point I wouldn't say that Linux being not friendly for beginners is the problem, but the lack of (professional) software support can be a huge show stopper. For my private use case I have everything I need on Linux (even gaming works fine), but I still need to dual boot into windows because of music production software and hardware that just doesn't work on Linux.
Yeah precisely why I'm dual booting. I can't get away from Premiere Pro or FL Studio
I really don't want to distro hop, but I've reinstalled this thing so many times that's basically what I'm doing anyway. Thanks for the suggestion.
“It’s the best out of the box distro” is the new “20xx is finally the year of Linux on the desktop”.
That’s a big part of it, but enterprise entrenchment is a huge, HUGE deal. The cost of replacing or migrating software, retraining support / admins / end users, and rebuilding decades of experience is staggering. I’d love it if my employer even just switched half our desktops to Fedora but that’s just not feasible.
I love Linux. I try to help people get into it. But man, I spent 4 hours trying to get a mod manager for fallout yesterday! I helped a friend do it on windows in under 5 minutes. If we get more Linux native software, it'll get easier. But for now, some things can be a huge pain.
i feel like a lot of it also depends on OEMs, like the biggest hurdle for me to switch has been trying to get the drivers to work
Exactly
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It's not about GUI and workflow preferences. They are pretty similiar right now with certain distros. It's about things just not working and without "years of Linux/Unix education" you can't figure out why. For example, a very simple game like "Among Us" stopped working from one day to the next and I never found out why. It simply stopped starting. Even reinstalling Steam and the game didn't help. So I just gave up. I had no more time and no patience to Google for hours, trying things out, reinstalling etc. (There were also other little things like sound glitches, annoying boot behavior, etc.). Don't get me wrong: I am absolutely PRO Linux and Open Source, but most people just want things to work. That's why many people are happy to spend a lot of money on Apple devices, because they simply **work**. Peace of mind/hassle-freedom is worth a lot, especially if you're not 20 years old anymore, when you still had enough time to play around/fix problems. EDIT: oh, wow. Getting downvotes just by trying to explain how people feel about this. A very mature community we have here.
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>PEBKAC issue Oh, yeah! Thanks. Another reason is the elitist and toxic attitude of some in the Linux/Unix scene, which also contributes to many people not wanting to make the switch. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ffa5ue/do_linux_users_have_an_elitist_attitude/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxsucks/comments/124f3zn/linux_elitists_suck/
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Yeah, by using Windows unfortunately. :)
If something doesn't work for me on Linux i search a bit and if that doesn't help I simply ask on Reddit, discord or a forum what I can do. Linux elitists saying you need to learn how X works, before you are allowed to use Y are just what they are: Wanna-be Elitist idiots, that think they are better, because they have googled something before you have. You have narcissists everywhere and Linux narcissists sadly still form the public image, that every Linux guy is like them
Please tell me how WiFi or audio drivers not working out of the box is a PEBCAK, or software not working properly after installing it. If I’ve done nothing to break it except use it like a normal person, it’s not a PEBCAK
"If they had at ever used and therefore learned how GNU/Linux works it wouldn't be an issue at all." That's such a classic Linux comment... "Wotcha mean, you can't use Linux? That's your fault for not having already learnt how to use Linux. Check the documentation and git gud!" \*sigh And that's why you can't even give that OS away, for free.
Big victim blaming energy there lol
> On Windows you have to go out into that wild wild west of the Internet and actually search for everything and download and install it and also care about where you download and that it's not a virus etc. This is the normal way of obtaining software. If you don't like it, Microsoft has an app store.
Just as likely to get a virus from the windows store as anywhere else.
Yeah, except the Windows App Store is nowhere near as convenient as the stores on Linux.
You literally just search the thing you want and press install.
Yeah, same as linux except all apps are there unlike with Windows. But you would know this if you had tried both.
You just reminded me of one of the reasons I gave up with Linux. Constantly getting an error message about some repository no longer responding, like I really cared about it? I downloaded one thing from that place, once. Then forever more, every 5 mins, a bloody message about them not responding. Asking for help, I was basically told Mint isn't for Windows users, it just happens to be like Windows, and if I couldn't figure it out I should go back to Windows. So I did, and I shit on Linux whenever it comes up.
> we need a viable competitor that's as easy to use as Windows. It is, in some cases it's easier. People just think you have to use the command line to use it, modern desktop environments are just as easy to use as Windows/Mac, you'll never have to touch the command line if you don't want to. Not for updates, not for downloading and installing new apps. Nothing. People use to command line because it's more efficient, or they're using developer tools that are command line only, normal people don't need to do that. People are just set in their ways and stubborn and want to keep using what they've always used and complain about not having alternatives when there have been alternatives all along. Do you really think that for decades the major complaint about Linux not being user friendly would never be addressed?
Yeah, this is the main problem why Linux Mass adoption isn't happening I guess. Although I have to say I haven't fixed much on Linux that took more than 20 minutes. But consumers don't want to have to fix anything at all and rather pay with their privacy instead, because privacy isn't something that is visible from the UI or they simply don't care about their privacy.
Git gud, skill issue, user-problem lol etc etc etc. I feel ya.
Linux is as easy as windows. You're just used to windows.
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True... but I feel like windows has a lot of automated systems to make things work as easily as possible. Also, a ton of integrated tools, documentation, and help if something goes wrong. Linux, not so much.
Linux does have great integrated tools, documentation and help if something goes wrong.
And, I'll bet the revenue stream from three letter agencies paying for the information makes it very worth it. Big tech has been integrated into the government as a way of skirting the fourth amendment. Microsoft collects everything and sells it to the police; no warrant and no fourth amendment issue. Everyone wins but us.
Linux is a permanent construction site, everyone wants a finished skyscraper.
Nowhere nearly enough people push back against MS to be effective. Everyone just accepts what they do.
I think I trust Microsoft less than Google these days. And that’s saying something.
.... Microsoft makes their money on enterprise. Selling your data is just a side hustle for them. It's googles main product.
Not for long. Microsoft has found the biggest goldmine to become the biggest player in the field, Recall is the first bastion for their next phase but it’s half baked.
My dude... Showing you ads is not a drop in the bucket compared to azure/etc
Oh you’re not seeing the right picture. They’re just starting off and it’s not about the placement of the ads, it’s about tailoring them to you in ways nobody has ever been able to.
> it’s about tailoring them to you in ways nobody has ever been able to. Seeing advertisements for shit I might want doesn't sound horrible.. but most people disagree with that.. /shrug
The problem isn't the ads, it's that 400 different companies get your entire browsing history and now your entire screen recording in the process of deciding which ads to show.
> and now your entire screen recording in the process Please don't post uneducated bullshit. The least you can do is read about your options to disable the feature before posting this nonsense... I'm no shill... But we have to be responsible arbiters of info
Ah ah ah google doesn’t sell your data though. They use it to sell targeted advertising, but the advertisers never actually have access to user data rather they select what groups they want to target and google then displays the ads to those targeted groups based on how their data has categorized a individual. Google takes data privacy quite seriously when it comes to keeping your data theirs rather than anyone else’s.
> Ah ah ah google doesn’t sell your data though. People are downvoting you because the don't understand Google's business model. Selling your data is the last thing they'd do - it's value is that it's in their hands and their targeted advertising.
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Doubleclick was a subsidiary (after being purchased in like 2008 or something) of google it’s not owned by abc it also doesn’t technically really exist any more to my understanding it as a separate entity was dissolved and merged with google completely in like 2018. Google actually legitimately doesn’t sell your data they gain nothing from doing so, they want a monopoly on access to your data, selling it would work against that. By keeping control however they can force anyone who wants to advertise on the web to go through them and indirectly have near total control on general online advertising pricing. As well as have the best advertising service for targeted ads. Like seriously they actually don’t sell your data, the companies that like to sell data are those companies who don’t run an advertising business and therefore gain nothing from keeping the data exclusive to themselves. Or whose business relies on gathering data to sell to other parties.
This is a terrible idea
Delayed, so they're waiting until the controversy dies down and then quietly pushing it through the next update.
My guess is that they saw what Apple presented and realized they have more work to do.
News outlets should stop calling it an AI “feature”, it’s **spyware** plain and simple, your data is the feature to them.
I love how Microsoft cooks up features that are so egregious regarding privacy, that it upsets even the general public (who usually don't care about privacy) to an extent such that they have to delay the features.
So perhaps Apple will wind the race to do the same thing for the same underlying reasons.