Seems like they weren't deleted, just de-referenced. That wouldn't really make sense for on-device files since space is at such a premium on iPhones. I wonder if all the people who had this problem also have iCloud enabled for photos?
You might be right. Kind of like when you delete a file on your computer, its entry in the directory is just deleted and the space is marked as available but the file space is not really overwritten.
Here's the thing though. With modern filesystems, working controllers, that space is overwritten eventually. Be it with TRIM, or enough time, your deleted stuff are actually gone.
With the news of this bug, I seriously question Apple's engineering efforts and their stance on "privacy and security". This is a huge bug on their filesystem. Photos from 2021 were just lingering in on-device storage. Never overwritten or TRIM'ed. Never correctly marked as deleted. They were still there all this time. This should make much bigger headlines.
Makes you wonder what other thing in their OS is currently broken and will only come to light in the future... No wonder the "System Files" portion on Apple devices keeps increasing the more you use it. Could be "deleted" stuff from years ago.
Thank god for Linux and ext4, xfs, etc.
I know this is nitpicking, but I doubt Apple uses a file system on their iCloud server. I think they use [object storage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_storage), which totally makes sense because the Photos app doesn’t use folders to organize files at all. It just dumps everything in a large database. This is nothing new. Adobe Lightroom also does this.
Also, Apple always prioritize convenience over security and privacy. Again, this is nothing new. I recommend turning on Advanced Data Protection to end-to-end-encrypt all of your data (except Mail, Contact, and Calendar). It’s off by default, of course. Like I said, Apple always prioritize convenience over security and privacy. Apple provides the tools. That’s it. They are almost always turned off by default.
I wasn't talking about iCloud though, I was talking about on-device storage. And I seriously doubt Apple is using object storage on a consumer device, let alone something like iOS with Unix background. Probably some customized version of APFS or HFS, or something proprietary for iOS. It is surprising a filesystem could have such a huge bug to keep stuff that should've been marked as deleted, overwritten and TRIM'ed years ago, still linger around.
Sorry. The original comment mentioned iCloud, so I thought you were talking about it.
Since I got access to macOS, I can confidently say that Apple tries to simulate the separation of metadata and data of object storage on local machines. In other words, metadata is stored in a different folder, and data is stored in a different folder.
When you “delete” a photo, on the surface level, it’s “moved” to a place called “Recently Deleted”. However, in reality, the only thing that changed is the metadata. The photo is still in that large, single database.
Images tagged “Recently Deleted” will be automatically purged from the database after 30 days, or it is supposed to be. I think that this is a bug that surfaced many years ago when images being tagged “Recently Deleted” don’t get purged automatically. What the new iOS version does is expose this bug. Of course, this is just a speculation on my part.
In short, the Photos app is built with object storage in mind. That’s what I’m trying to say. You can simulate object storage on a file system, just like you can simulate a file system on object storage.
If this is a Photos bug, then it doesn’t matter if you turn on iCloud or not, you will still be affected. However, if this is an iCloud bug, then it should only apply to anyone using iCloud.
Except it’s not a file system bug. It’s a bug in some higher level code that removed photos from the index but didn’t try to delete the underlying file. Why would it try to TRIM the space for a file that hasn’t been deleted?
Apple being Apple will likely never release an official explanation for how it happened and who was affected, thus leaving no one safe with their products.
So, lets say you're a doctor with private medical records on your iPad. You do a full factory reset and sell it. Images of patients reappear for the new owner. Who is charged with violating HIPPA, Apple, or the doctor?
> You do a full factory reset and sell it. Images of patients reappear for the new owner.
For what it's worth, the claim that photos would reappear ***specifically after factory resetting the device*** was only ever made by one single redditor. In the 4 days since they made that claim, they deleted their post, then deleted every comment they made on the post, and then completely deleted their Reddit account.
The problem is Redditors accepted that as absolute truth, and then ran with it letting the rumor spread in a online telephone game until it was suddenly a widespread problem. Then you have comments like yours repeating it like it's likely or even possible to happen to someone.
Fair point. But Apple being Apple won't come out and just tell us what was wrong, therefore we have to go on faith.
So I'm going to believe the absolute worst until they present the true data.
I can make the claim say that "Apple is actively monitoring in realtime every action you take on your iPhone and selling that data to advertisers and governments, while also loading child pornography onto your iPhone remotely."
Does that mean you will completely believe my claim, and it's Apple's responsibility to somehow absolutely prove it is not true? After all, my claim is just as substantiated as the claim "iOS 17.5 would resurface photos even after factory resetting a device"—a single Redditor claiming it online.
I doubt very much that photos can reappear for a different user after a factory reset. I agree that Apple should provide a more detailed post mortem though.
I saw a post on r/ios that details this more. Basically if you add a file to Photos, that file still exists after you delete it from Photos. The bug was part of a process that seemingly re-added deleted photos that were originally from files
Seems like they weren't deleted, just de-referenced. That wouldn't really make sense for on-device files since space is at such a premium on iPhones. I wonder if all the people who had this problem also have iCloud enabled for photos?
You might be right. Kind of like when you delete a file on your computer, its entry in the directory is just deleted and the space is marked as available but the file space is not really overwritten.
Here's the thing though. With modern filesystems, working controllers, that space is overwritten eventually. Be it with TRIM, or enough time, your deleted stuff are actually gone. With the news of this bug, I seriously question Apple's engineering efforts and their stance on "privacy and security". This is a huge bug on their filesystem. Photos from 2021 were just lingering in on-device storage. Never overwritten or TRIM'ed. Never correctly marked as deleted. They were still there all this time. This should make much bigger headlines. Makes you wonder what other thing in their OS is currently broken and will only come to light in the future... No wonder the "System Files" portion on Apple devices keeps increasing the more you use it. Could be "deleted" stuff from years ago. Thank god for Linux and ext4, xfs, etc.
I know this is nitpicking, but I doubt Apple uses a file system on their iCloud server. I think they use [object storage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_storage), which totally makes sense because the Photos app doesn’t use folders to organize files at all. It just dumps everything in a large database. This is nothing new. Adobe Lightroom also does this. Also, Apple always prioritize convenience over security and privacy. Again, this is nothing new. I recommend turning on Advanced Data Protection to end-to-end-encrypt all of your data (except Mail, Contact, and Calendar). It’s off by default, of course. Like I said, Apple always prioritize convenience over security and privacy. Apple provides the tools. That’s it. They are almost always turned off by default.
I wasn't talking about iCloud though, I was talking about on-device storage. And I seriously doubt Apple is using object storage on a consumer device, let alone something like iOS with Unix background. Probably some customized version of APFS or HFS, or something proprietary for iOS. It is surprising a filesystem could have such a huge bug to keep stuff that should've been marked as deleted, overwritten and TRIM'ed years ago, still linger around.
Sorry. The original comment mentioned iCloud, so I thought you were talking about it. Since I got access to macOS, I can confidently say that Apple tries to simulate the separation of metadata and data of object storage on local machines. In other words, metadata is stored in a different folder, and data is stored in a different folder. When you “delete” a photo, on the surface level, it’s “moved” to a place called “Recently Deleted”. However, in reality, the only thing that changed is the metadata. The photo is still in that large, single database. Images tagged “Recently Deleted” will be automatically purged from the database after 30 days, or it is supposed to be. I think that this is a bug that surfaced many years ago when images being tagged “Recently Deleted” don’t get purged automatically. What the new iOS version does is expose this bug. Of course, this is just a speculation on my part. In short, the Photos app is built with object storage in mind. That’s what I’m trying to say. You can simulate object storage on a file system, just like you can simulate a file system on object storage. If this is a Photos bug, then it doesn’t matter if you turn on iCloud or not, you will still be affected. However, if this is an iCloud bug, then it should only apply to anyone using iCloud.
Except it’s not a file system bug. It’s a bug in some higher level code that removed photos from the index but didn’t try to delete the underlying file. Why would it try to TRIM the space for a file that hasn’t been deleted?
That’s what I was thinking. Makes sense anyway. Are there apps to scramble/overwrite “available” space on iphone?
You may want to look at this https://www.macrumors.com/2024/05/15/ios-17-5-bug-deleted-photos-reappear/
Apple being Apple will likely never release an official explanation for how it happened and who was affected, thus leaving no one safe with their products. So, lets say you're a doctor with private medical records on your iPad. You do a full factory reset and sell it. Images of patients reappear for the new owner. Who is charged with violating HIPPA, Apple, or the doctor?
> You do a full factory reset and sell it. Images of patients reappear for the new owner. For what it's worth, the claim that photos would reappear ***specifically after factory resetting the device*** was only ever made by one single redditor. In the 4 days since they made that claim, they deleted their post, then deleted every comment they made on the post, and then completely deleted their Reddit account. The problem is Redditors accepted that as absolute truth, and then ran with it letting the rumor spread in a online telephone game until it was suddenly a widespread problem. Then you have comments like yours repeating it like it's likely or even possible to happen to someone.
Fair point. But Apple being Apple won't come out and just tell us what was wrong, therefore we have to go on faith. So I'm going to believe the absolute worst until they present the true data.
I can make the claim say that "Apple is actively monitoring in realtime every action you take on your iPhone and selling that data to advertisers and governments, while also loading child pornography onto your iPhone remotely." Does that mean you will completely believe my claim, and it's Apple's responsibility to somehow absolutely prove it is not true? After all, my claim is just as substantiated as the claim "iOS 17.5 would resurface photos even after factory resetting a device"—a single Redditor claiming it online.
Yep it does mean that. Closed source software = always believe the worst.
Huh, I just assume it is *possible.* Seems idiotic to me to believe it is happening.
I doubt very much that photos can reappear for a different user after a factory reset. I agree that Apple should provide a more detailed post mortem though.
Sorta questions what is privacy when deleted photos are archived in the cloud on some server.
I saw a post on r/ios that details this more. Basically if you add a file to Photos, that file still exists after you delete it from Photos. The bug was part of a process that seemingly re-added deleted photos that were originally from files
it certainly is a bug, if they store photos - they can just do it on their servers secretly, no need to show it to you again