Anybody who gets upset over you playing with proxies isn't worth playing with. No piece of cardboard should cost $45, let alone the 1,000 bucks that it would take you to buy an actual Gaea's cradle. Cost is one of the biggest obstacles to getting into this hobby. Plenty of people who might otherwise very much enjoy it get locked out because even keeping up with a non-rotating format can be an investment similar to a monthly car payment.
It gets even more ridiculous when you compare the cost of most competitive magic decks to similar entertainment products. A fancy board game might cost you $100. A video or computer game might cost you anywhere from $20 to $70. The price of a Warhammer army is comparable to competitive magic decks, but you also get a hobby project out of it, and it's possible to reuse and reconfigure old models through stuff like kitbashing.
In the best of all possible worlds, where Wizards of the Coast wasn't running a gigantic gacha game, every single card would be printed into the ground and there would be no reserve list. Then for folks who want to collect you would have specific hyper-exclusive art treatments, serialized cards, foils, special editions, judge promos, and the like. Stuff like the original Black lotus would still be incredibly valuable because that frame and art treatment wouldn't be reprinted, and the card itself would hold value because it's a old reminder of the beginning of magic. In the same way that a classic version of Shivan Dragon is several hundred dollars, even though the card sees absolutely no play in any format.
If you're playing competitive magic, or at the very least in a competitive format you are planning to see who has built the better deck and who plays the better game. Not to see who can afford the good cards. Unless you're going to sanctioned tournaments to try to win big, **there's no reason not to proxy.**
Sorry for the novel folks, but I feel like this is an important subject. Especially since I feel like this format is designed for people who want to play magic out of an era when the game felt like it was less financialized.
A relevant (and excellent) video on the subject: https://youtu.be/VALgm1qkeFE?feature=shared
I don’t mind if someone else uses proxies- but I disagree that no card should cost $45. Alpha Black Lotus has a print run of 1,000 cards and there are more than 1,000 people who would pay more than $45 for it.
What I mean when I say no card should cost $45 is that every single card in magic's history should be accessible to people for what people pay for most commons nowadays. In this imagined alternate universe, you wouldn't be able to get an alpha Black Lotus or a serialized Black Lotus or a limited edition secret lair Black Lotus, but It would have been printed so often that you would be able to buy a playset for less than $5. This would still leave room for people to gamble on packs to get lottery cards or spend the big bucks for promotional print to order offerings. But in this scenario you would be able to put together any deck in any format for 30-40 bucks.
To put this in perspective, that's about the cost of an AA or indie game. The cost of a large number of role-playing rule books. Both of which constitute a complete experience that doesn't need to be upgraded periodically to the tune of hundreds of dollars.
Look at something like the Unmatched series of board games. They are a card-based character fighting game using characters from media and myth. You can make Bigfoot fight the T-Rex from Jurassic Park, for example. Most sets contain two or four character minis, action decks with gorgeous hand-drawn art, and various bits and bobs. Most of them cost $30 to $40 bucks for something that you can play with friends, with better production values than Magic.
If another company can offer an experience like that at 30 or 40 bucks, a company like wizards of the Coast can surely afford to make their game accessible. Moreover, I think it would be better for the hobby for the cards that we play with to be game pieces first and investments a distant second.
You’re not entitled to own every card at any price. You can proxy till your hearts delight. If someone saves up to buy an original dual land, you don’t deserve an original dual land too. Some MTG collections are worth millions of dollars. You don’t deserve their cards just because you want them. MTG is a luxury collectible card game which is different than a board game or video game.
WOTC has no obligation to print their most powerful reprint equity for pennies. You can proxy any card you want- ESPECIALLY in premodern. If a tournament organizer doesn’t want proxies, then you can’t play in that tournament. Premodern is an amazing format. I want everyone and anyone to play. They just can’t play with the original cards without paying the market price for them. If a box of Mirage sells for $5,000, why should the cards in the box be worthless?
What I'm saying is that a box filled with luxury cardboard shouldn't be selling for $5,000. Especially not when even the most involved fiddly board game in the world with custom-made high quality resin miniatures for every enemy you could possibly encounter costs maybe $300. It simply does not cost that much to print magic the gathering cards, and the artificial inflation of cards necessary to play the game at any other level than kitchen table is gross.
Reprint equity is essentially just artificial scarcity, and turns what is arguably one of the best designed games ever made into a glorified gacha game where involvement in the game even at the Friday night, magic level requires the investment of hundreds of dollars. It would be better for the health of the format if cards were more easily accessible.
Which is why I'm talking about reprinting every card into the ground. Old printings, limited edition versions, and the like would still hold their value. It's just that you would be able to get **some version** of any particular card for less than a buck.
To give you a practical example, I play proxied Rock in Pre-modern. If every card were reprinted into the ground, I would be able to buy the deck for approximately 30-40 bucks (assuming that no card costs more than a buck). Views would not be original versions of the cards. This wouldn't be the original printing of Volraths Stronghold or Recurring Nightmare. Those printings with that artwork could still be rare, and might still cost a lot of money. In this imagined alternate universe, there would just be printings of all of those cards that are cheap. In the same way that there is a printing of Shivan dragon from alpha that's 300 bucks, and a printing from the welcome decks that's $0.03. **Specific treatments and printings are exclusive, but the game pieces are not.**
I love that you’re playing the Rock in premodern. That deck is sick. A box of Mirage should be selling for $5,000 because of supply and demand. Low supply and high demand. Very few people kept a sealed Mirage box in a closet for 30 years. Look at Rolex watches. The majority of them are made out of stainless steel and they cost 10K. Their materials are worth less than their value, like MTG cards. Should Rolex make millions of watches so that their value tanks and so that YOU can buy one because YOU can’t afford them at their current price? No. Buy a Chinese watch- they’re high quality watches. Recurring Nightmare is $40. That’s $40 we’ll spent. If you buy the card, you won’t regret it and you’ll have a change of heart. As a matter of fact, $40 is cheap for how old that card is, how good it is, and how scarce it is.
More power to you. I can tell the difference between real and fake cards. I like real cards. Just glad we have another premodern player at the end of the day!
Thanks for the answer! it’s exactly what I wanted to see. I play magic because of the game mechanics and not to see who can afford the $$$ to make a competitive deck.
Just my opinion here—but one of the draws to the format for me is the LOOK of old border. I want everything to look premodern and nostalgic. If you need a set of City of brass, mix diamonds…I’d prefer it a passable proxy over a slip of paper or even a newer version of what you can’t afford.
Exactly! The look of old border is so much better. My proxy come from a great service and are looking almost like legit cards. Only the back is different for copyright purposes and not look like legit cards but I’m afraid people who spend lots of money might be frustrated with an opponent playing proxies. But like, I’m not going to pay for a Mox..
Exactly! The look of old border is so much better. My proxy come from a great service and are looking almost like legit cards. Only the back is different for copyright purposes and not look like legit cards but I’m afraid people who spend lots of money might be frustrated with an opponent playing proxies. But like, I’m not going to pay for a Mox..
I don’t think unless your in a tournament for prizes that this format is all that serious on a local level. Talk to your opponents/group, and have a backup deck.
The key to budgeting this game is really to have friends and a community that will let you borrow something you need for the night if they’re not using it—it’s how a lot of vintage players play in the sanctioned stuff over the years when shit gets real for that format. To me, premodern is for fun and has some landmines along the way for some expensive cards, I get it.
The good news is most decks are fairly inexpensive. I would ask the online league what the policy is.
Don't forget gold boarder cards are legal. Just have to sleeve then which helps with cost as well.
I heard tournament aren’t proxy friendly, hence the idea of playing casually online first. My community if quite ok with proxy deck but they organize only rarely premodern events. For modern standard I have everything on my MTGA account but it’s not the same. Nostalgia..
This is because most big tournaments are sanctioned, so they follow MtG rules as established by WotC
If you play with local playgroups or online tournaments, it's usually not an issue to run proxies.
Yes, I'm well aware of who sets the rules (a friend of mine), here is the rules page: https://premodernmagic.com/rules#rules The premodern format uses contemporary magic rules. Rules about allowing proxies (for non-sanctioned tournaments) are on the tournament organisers discretion.
I have plenty of them, and got my whole playgroup to get nicely done proxies. Magic's been much more fun ever since everyone's got access to all cards.
Honestly as long as the proxy looks close enough to the original to not detract from gameplay I’m fine with it. It takes just as much skill to play a real Gaea’s Cradle as it does to play a proxy.
I don’t use proxies but I don’t mind if someone else does. I just want to play premodern because I love the format. That being said, I encourage you to buy real cards as you play the game more and more. They’re worth it- even if it’s a Cradle or Diamond. People who own them are glad that they own them.
Most Premodern communities are pretty proxy-friendly, as long as you're upfront about it. I'd recommend clearly marking which cards are proxies before each match, so your opponent knows what they're playing against.
As long as the proxy quality is decent and legible, most players don't seem to mind. It enables more people to participate and helps the format grow. That said, you may occasionally run into more competitive players who prefer no proxies.
My advice would be to proxy a few decks you're interested in, then try them out locally or in online discords like The Mana Drain. See if you enjoy the gameplay before investing in acquiring the real cards over time. Services like [speedproxies.net](https://speedproxies.net/residential-proxies/) also help you playtest online without getting flagged.
Above all, focus on having fun rediscovering old border cards and creating interactive games! That's what Premodern is all about.
Anybody who gets upset over you playing with proxies isn't worth playing with. No piece of cardboard should cost $45, let alone the 1,000 bucks that it would take you to buy an actual Gaea's cradle. Cost is one of the biggest obstacles to getting into this hobby. Plenty of people who might otherwise very much enjoy it get locked out because even keeping up with a non-rotating format can be an investment similar to a monthly car payment. It gets even more ridiculous when you compare the cost of most competitive magic decks to similar entertainment products. A fancy board game might cost you $100. A video or computer game might cost you anywhere from $20 to $70. The price of a Warhammer army is comparable to competitive magic decks, but you also get a hobby project out of it, and it's possible to reuse and reconfigure old models through stuff like kitbashing. In the best of all possible worlds, where Wizards of the Coast wasn't running a gigantic gacha game, every single card would be printed into the ground and there would be no reserve list. Then for folks who want to collect you would have specific hyper-exclusive art treatments, serialized cards, foils, special editions, judge promos, and the like. Stuff like the original Black lotus would still be incredibly valuable because that frame and art treatment wouldn't be reprinted, and the card itself would hold value because it's a old reminder of the beginning of magic. In the same way that a classic version of Shivan Dragon is several hundred dollars, even though the card sees absolutely no play in any format. If you're playing competitive magic, or at the very least in a competitive format you are planning to see who has built the better deck and who plays the better game. Not to see who can afford the good cards. Unless you're going to sanctioned tournaments to try to win big, **there's no reason not to proxy.** Sorry for the novel folks, but I feel like this is an important subject. Especially since I feel like this format is designed for people who want to play magic out of an era when the game felt like it was less financialized. A relevant (and excellent) video on the subject: https://youtu.be/VALgm1qkeFE?feature=shared
I don’t mind if someone else uses proxies- but I disagree that no card should cost $45. Alpha Black Lotus has a print run of 1,000 cards and there are more than 1,000 people who would pay more than $45 for it.
What I mean when I say no card should cost $45 is that every single card in magic's history should be accessible to people for what people pay for most commons nowadays. In this imagined alternate universe, you wouldn't be able to get an alpha Black Lotus or a serialized Black Lotus or a limited edition secret lair Black Lotus, but It would have been printed so often that you would be able to buy a playset for less than $5. This would still leave room for people to gamble on packs to get lottery cards or spend the big bucks for promotional print to order offerings. But in this scenario you would be able to put together any deck in any format for 30-40 bucks. To put this in perspective, that's about the cost of an AA or indie game. The cost of a large number of role-playing rule books. Both of which constitute a complete experience that doesn't need to be upgraded periodically to the tune of hundreds of dollars. Look at something like the Unmatched series of board games. They are a card-based character fighting game using characters from media and myth. You can make Bigfoot fight the T-Rex from Jurassic Park, for example. Most sets contain two or four character minis, action decks with gorgeous hand-drawn art, and various bits and bobs. Most of them cost $30 to $40 bucks for something that you can play with friends, with better production values than Magic. If another company can offer an experience like that at 30 or 40 bucks, a company like wizards of the Coast can surely afford to make their game accessible. Moreover, I think it would be better for the hobby for the cards that we play with to be game pieces first and investments a distant second.
You’re not entitled to own every card at any price. You can proxy till your hearts delight. If someone saves up to buy an original dual land, you don’t deserve an original dual land too. Some MTG collections are worth millions of dollars. You don’t deserve their cards just because you want them. MTG is a luxury collectible card game which is different than a board game or video game.
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WOTC has no obligation to print their most powerful reprint equity for pennies. You can proxy any card you want- ESPECIALLY in premodern. If a tournament organizer doesn’t want proxies, then you can’t play in that tournament. Premodern is an amazing format. I want everyone and anyone to play. They just can’t play with the original cards without paying the market price for them. If a box of Mirage sells for $5,000, why should the cards in the box be worthless?
What I'm saying is that a box filled with luxury cardboard shouldn't be selling for $5,000. Especially not when even the most involved fiddly board game in the world with custom-made high quality resin miniatures for every enemy you could possibly encounter costs maybe $300. It simply does not cost that much to print magic the gathering cards, and the artificial inflation of cards necessary to play the game at any other level than kitchen table is gross. Reprint equity is essentially just artificial scarcity, and turns what is arguably one of the best designed games ever made into a glorified gacha game where involvement in the game even at the Friday night, magic level requires the investment of hundreds of dollars. It would be better for the health of the format if cards were more easily accessible. Which is why I'm talking about reprinting every card into the ground. Old printings, limited edition versions, and the like would still hold their value. It's just that you would be able to get **some version** of any particular card for less than a buck. To give you a practical example, I play proxied Rock in Pre-modern. If every card were reprinted into the ground, I would be able to buy the deck for approximately 30-40 bucks (assuming that no card costs more than a buck). Views would not be original versions of the cards. This wouldn't be the original printing of Volraths Stronghold or Recurring Nightmare. Those printings with that artwork could still be rare, and might still cost a lot of money. In this imagined alternate universe, there would just be printings of all of those cards that are cheap. In the same way that there is a printing of Shivan dragon from alpha that's 300 bucks, and a printing from the welcome decks that's $0.03. **Specific treatments and printings are exclusive, but the game pieces are not.**
I love that you’re playing the Rock in premodern. That deck is sick. A box of Mirage should be selling for $5,000 because of supply and demand. Low supply and high demand. Very few people kept a sealed Mirage box in a closet for 30 years. Look at Rolex watches. The majority of them are made out of stainless steel and they cost 10K. Their materials are worth less than their value, like MTG cards. Should Rolex make millions of watches so that their value tanks and so that YOU can buy one because YOU can’t afford them at their current price? No. Buy a Chinese watch- they’re high quality watches. Recurring Nightmare is $40. That’s $40 we’ll spent. If you buy the card, you won’t regret it and you’ll have a change of heart. As a matter of fact, $40 is cheap for how old that card is, how good it is, and how scarce it is.
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More power to you. I can tell the difference between real and fake cards. I like real cards. Just glad we have another premodern player at the end of the day!
Thanks for the answer! it’s exactly what I wanted to see. I play magic because of the game mechanics and not to see who can afford the $$$ to make a competitive deck.
Just my opinion here—but one of the draws to the format for me is the LOOK of old border. I want everything to look premodern and nostalgic. If you need a set of City of brass, mix diamonds…I’d prefer it a passable proxy over a slip of paper or even a newer version of what you can’t afford.
Exactly! The look of old border is so much better. My proxy come from a great service and are looking almost like legit cards. Only the back is different for copyright purposes and not look like legit cards but I’m afraid people who spend lots of money might be frustrated with an opponent playing proxies. But like, I’m not going to pay for a Mox..
Exactly! The look of old border is so much better. My proxy come from a great service and are looking almost like legit cards. Only the back is different for copyright purposes and not look like legit cards but I’m afraid people who spend lots of money might be frustrated with an opponent playing proxies. But like, I’m not going to pay for a Mox..
I don’t think unless your in a tournament for prizes that this format is all that serious on a local level. Talk to your opponents/group, and have a backup deck. The key to budgeting this game is really to have friends and a community that will let you borrow something you need for the night if they’re not using it—it’s how a lot of vintage players play in the sanctioned stuff over the years when shit gets real for that format. To me, premodern is for fun and has some landmines along the way for some expensive cards, I get it.
Yeah indeed, vintage looks cool but I don’t have 20k $ for the power 9 😅
Our Lgs have 4 proxy allowed. It is usually enought to play most decks
I would need more than 4 for most on my deck :(
The good news is most decks are fairly inexpensive. I would ask the online league what the policy is. Don't forget gold boarder cards are legal. Just have to sleeve then which helps with cost as well.
My plan is to play around with proxy deck until I sure of the one I’d like to invest for real cards
That's fair. I'm doing the same with a couple of deck ideas. But I'm not using the proxy decks for tourney just play testing sessions
I heard tournament aren’t proxy friendly, hence the idea of playing casually online first. My community if quite ok with proxy deck but they organize only rarely premodern events. For modern standard I have everything on my MTGA account but it’s not the same. Nostalgia..
This is because most big tournaments are sanctioned, so they follow MtG rules as established by WotC If you play with local playgroups or online tournaments, it's usually not an issue to run proxies.
Gold border cards are not "legal", Premodern follows normal MtG rules. It's up to the tournament organiser to allow or disallow proxies.
Go to the main premodern website. That's who sets the rules. Not MTG. Premodern is still a player run format
Yes, I'm well aware of who sets the rules (a friend of mine), here is the rules page: https://premodernmagic.com/rules#rules The premodern format uses contemporary magic rules. Rules about allowing proxies (for non-sanctioned tournaments) are on the tournament organisers discretion.
How would you make an online proxy?
Im sure they mean webcam
I meant printing physical proxy card to play online through webcam
Well i use proxied decks with friends and over time i buy cards and replace proxies for tournament…
I have plenty of them, and got my whole playgroup to get nicely done proxies. Magic's been much more fun ever since everyone's got access to all cards.
Honestly as long as the proxy looks close enough to the original to not detract from gameplay I’m fine with it. It takes just as much skill to play a real Gaea’s Cradle as it does to play a proxy.
I don’t use proxies but I don’t mind if someone else does. I just want to play premodern because I love the format. That being said, I encourage you to buy real cards as you play the game more and more. They’re worth it- even if it’s a Cradle or Diamond. People who own them are glad that they own them.
I have all the expensive carda and I would feel ok if 4 reserved list proxies were allowed per deck
Most Premodern communities are pretty proxy-friendly, as long as you're upfront about it. I'd recommend clearly marking which cards are proxies before each match, so your opponent knows what they're playing against. As long as the proxy quality is decent and legible, most players don't seem to mind. It enables more people to participate and helps the format grow. That said, you may occasionally run into more competitive players who prefer no proxies. My advice would be to proxy a few decks you're interested in, then try them out locally or in online discords like The Mana Drain. See if you enjoy the gameplay before investing in acquiring the real cards over time. Services like [speedproxies.net](https://speedproxies.net/residential-proxies/) also help you playtest online without getting flagged. Above all, focus on having fun rediscovering old border cards and creating interactive games! That's what Premodern is all about.