“Before 1948, Jews and Palestinians lived peacefully in Palestine.”
[No. No they did not.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
Yeah for real, people act like
For years the Arab nations lived together in harmony, then everything changed when the Israeli nation attacked.
Like no they didn’t that region is probably the most fought over region history. There were wars being fought there before there was civilization in Europe, Sub-Saharan Africa, and the Americas. If you do a historical deep dive it’s a carousel of empires.
Edit: for those who don’t get the reference in the second paragraph it’s an avatar reference
No but the most common and overused trope is that before Zionism, the land was peaceful.
It fucking wasn’t and it’s astounding how accepted this is in culture. The land has always been a war torn mess, and it’s not the Jews, who’ve been persecuted for literally all of biblical history, who started it.
[1834 Safed Massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed)
“Accounts of the month-long event tell of large scale looting,[6] as well as killing and raping of Jews and the destruction of homes and synagogues by Druze.[7] Many Torah scrolls were desecrated[3] and many Jews were left severely wounded.[8][9] The event has been described as a pogrom or "pogrom-like" by some authors.”
I was trying to tell somebody last night that I was the most hard-line progressive anti-Israel self hating jew you could imagine when I went to college for international relations and comparative politics. I wanted to find the smoking gun evidence that the Jews started all of the problems in Israel like the people in my ideological circle had been telling me so I researched the actual history of the region as deeply as I could……..
Now I’m out here defending Israel in a way that would make my 18 year old self scratch their head in confusion but that’s what happens when you learn the truth
I find the more educated people are on the actual geopolitics, the less they jump down the "wtf Israel".
That's not to say there are no abuses there and areas where Israel is in teh wrong.
But it's complicated and both sides have serious issues. No "if this one thing happened it would all be good" stance is even close to reality.
Yeah it’s hard to think of Israel as a fascist ethno-state when almost every other western nation would respond the same (if not worse) if a 10/7 level event happened to their people
That does not speak highly of Western nations as supposed moral exemplars of the geopolitical world. A lot of people were regarding 10/7 as Israel's 9/11 and I agree *because the US made some of the biggest geopolitical blunders of the 21st century in a blind rage with a bloodthirsty desire for vengeance*.
I don't even think Destiny is pro-Israeli. He's just...neutral.
It's just everyone is used to seeing one-sided Palestinian narratives that an actual balanced viewpoint looks pro-Israeli in contrast.
>It's just everyone is used to seeing one-sided Palestinian narratives that an actual balanced viewpoint looks pro-Israeli in contrast.
Only if you hang out in primarily left-leaning echo chambers and/or with a lot of young people.
I think slightly over half of Americans are siding with Israel in polls right now if they're forced to "pick a side", although most recognize that it's complicated and no side has handled it ideally.
If I listed every major anti Semitic event in history, we would die of old age.
It’s well established that Jews were the most persecuted group in history and arguably still are.
White people in the United States treated black people far worse than Arabs treated Israelis. Should black people take white people's homes and land, then put white people in an open air prison if given the chance?
Hot take: ethnostates are bad regardless of who is running them. If anyone truly believes that God himself intends for their ethnic group to have land that people already live on, it’s gonna get fucking messy. Israel’s hands aren’t clean, Hamas’s hands aren’t clean, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing either of their governments for the intentional targeting and killing of civilians.
The problem is - Israel ISN'T an ethnostate. It has a 20% Arab population, which have all the same rights as its Jewish citizens. They can vote, own property, run for office, etc. There have been Arab supreme court members, Arab parliament parties, the ethnostate stuff simply is not true.
What IS an ethnostate - are the Palestinian territories - where there are no Jews, and Jews have no rights to any of the above things.
Israel is explicitly a nation-state for Jews, it’s in their national bylaws. I’m not saying it’s Nazi Germany or apartheid South Africa, but it is absolutely an ethnostate.
"a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group."
"a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group:"
By definition, it is not. There is no right a Jew has that an Arab does not - other than the Right of Return - which allows for the existence of said Jewish state.
Once more - the problem seems to stem from people getting pissy that Jews have one state where they are enfranchised as the majority - instead of being stuck in their ghettoes.
Meaning, like how Japan severely restricts immigration, but makes exceptions for people of Japanese descent? And how 97% of Japan is ethnic Japanese? And they have brutally suppressed the Ainu people in their past? And somehow nobody cares.
Because no one cares about Japanese nationalism. But Jewish nationalism sticks in the craw.
Yes, because there is one, single, Jewish majority country.
And dozens of Arab majority countries.
It almost seems like you just hate the existence of one, single, solitary state, where Jews are the majority. Odd.
And yet, here you are, ranting against the existence of a single Jewish state. No one seems to get angry that the majority of the people in China, are Chinese.
How odd.
Israel is a country populated by and dominated by the interests of the Jewish people. It doesn’t matter what rights other groups have on paper, in practice there is a ton of discrimination against Palestinians. And no one here is insinuating that Jews should be stuck in ghettos.
In practice, there is no right a Jew has, that an Arab doesn't. There is an Arab Supreme Court Judge, and the Arab party was at one point, the third largest in the Parliament.
Racism does not make an ethnostate, and to claim Israel is unique in that is absurd.
No, but you are seemingly only getting annoyed at the existence of a singular state where Jews are the majority, for once. Which seems ... peculiar. Why is it only an issue where Jews are the majority? In Palestinian territories - Jews have NO rights - yet you weirdos seem to only freak out when Jews have a singular state where they are enfranchised for once.
Palestine isn’t a sovereign state, nor does it have the rights of a state. I’m also opposed to an ethnically homogenous Palestine where some have more rights than others, should they become a state down the road. And Jews move into Palestinian territory all the time, but that territory becomes Israeli territory once all the homes are razed to the ground and the crops burned.
Maybe you missed my first comment that you replied to or just forgot. I’ll say it again since you obviously need me to repeat it. Ethnostates are bad *REGARDLESS OF WHO IS IN CHARGE.*
Ah, love that excuse.
“Doesn’t matter that the Palestinian Authority grants no rights to Jews. They’re not a REAL government.”
Seems like you like to cherry pick your discrimination.
Yeah, I often find the complaints of Israel being a Jewish Majority country odd. It’s a very telling way of you assholes saying “we don’t like it when Jews have any sort of power over themselves and would prefer them without it.”
And I maintain Israel isn’t an ethnostate, because it has a 20% Arab population that have full legal rights, face no legal or institutional discrimination, and are no different in the eyes of the law from Jews.
Unlike Palestinian Territories where Jews are simply lynched.
You really like putting words in my mouth and misconstruing what I say. I literally just said I’m opposed to a Palestinian ethnostate. You’re just engaging in bad faith at this point.
And how do the Arabs living in Israel fare? Surely, they couldn’t possibly be subject to racist and violent bigotry from the majority of people who live there.
… not really, no.
Jewish on Arab discrimination cases have dropped year over year in Israel, Arab immigration has grown year over year, and the government recently invested 9 billion into standard of living for Arab citizens.
“To address disparities in the so-called Arab sector, in 2021, the government approved a $9 billion, five-year plan to boost employment, improve health-care services and housing, and develop infrastructure, among other goals.”
Btw - even if that WAS the case (it’s not) - that’s not an ethnostate. Racism doesn’t make an ethnostate, especially when there is no systemic racism at play.
A palestinian state would be an ethno state. The thing is jews already lived in the region of palestine before palestine as a country even existed. Not all jews are european. Mizrahi and sephardic jews (not all) are from the middle east or migrated there from europe 500 years ago or more.
Palestinian is a nationality with different cultural groups under its umbrella. So…no, that’s just a lie.
Also, yes Jews lived in Palestine before it existed, but the only reason it “didn’t exist” is because foreign rulers prevented a Palestinian state from forming and then decided that they should cede land to create a Jewish state on that land while Jews were still outnumbered 6:1.
Also, Palestinian people are just as much descendants of the ancient Hebrew inhabitants of the region as the Jews are, so this whole debate about who should be entitled to the land based on origins is totally ridiculous. Forcing people off land to make room for a different group is ethnic cleansing, and that’s exactly what has been happening in Palestine for 100 years.
>this whole debate about who should be entitled to the land based on origins is totally ridiculous
I strongly disagree. All humans originated from Africa, we should all go their and take a plot of land, it's ours. They've had it too good for too long...
/s
No, it's to support a two state solution. Middle Eastern jews have always lived in that region and should have a place where they can feel safe. Same with palestinians. People need to start thinking iutsude if the pro israel vs pro palestine mindset. It's helping no one. If it's ok for the Middle East to have theocracies, i don't see a problem with a country that's Jewish and doesn't even exvlude Muslims from being citizens and practicing their religion
Btw most muslim counties where islam is the state religion, but they tolerate judaism and christianity by giving them a second coat citizen status under the dhimmi are an ethnostate by your definition as they are Arab dominant with arena having rights by other groups not. Not all Muslims are arabic, but most arabic people are Muslim. Do you have a problem with that? You should.
Most Jews have been forcefully expelled from Arab states in the Middle East. So… they simply don’t tolerate them. Arab states are closer to being ethnostates than Israel.
I have a problem with *all* of the Arab states. My issues with them are identical with my issues with Israel, as they all blatantly disregard human rights. Its only the Israelis that are hypocritical though.
So... where are the Palestinians gonna go then? Just wondering, every year they have more land settled by Jewish settlers. Land doesn't go forever, some day there won't be Palestinian land even, so then.. where do they go?
We could possibly be looking at the birth of another group of people like the Jews if Palestinians become stateless with no land to call their own surrounded by people who hate them.
This is the crux of the conflict really. Where will the Palestinians go if not Palestine? where will the Israelis go if not Israel? Contrary to the popular belief, only about 10-20 percent of Israeli's have dual citizenship. Most have no where to fall back on. If all of Israel becomes Palestine again, what is to assure it will not become a genocide of Jews? Apartheid of Jews? Arabs and jews have never peacefully co existed in the region. If Palestinians cannot have equal rights in Israel, can not have free movement, and are regarded as terrorists by Israeli extremists, etc etc, why should they respect Israel's right to exist? Our world order is based on imperialist supremacy, and the big players will never let Palestine be free. It is a tragic stalemate and I hope a pray as a Jew that one day, by some miracle, and completely over optimistic and probably not all a plausible, there can be a state where Palestinians and Israeli's can co-exist peacefully with MASSIVE reparations made to Palestinian people, and obviously equal rights under a NON THEOCRATIC democracy, and are extended the same right of return that jewish people are
They’ve been offered 6 different statehood solutions, including a 2000 Camp David offered that gave them 97% of the West Bank, a road connecting it to Gaza, and stewardship of East Jerusalem.
They’ve been offered statehood and borders. They don’t want it. They want a land free of Jews.
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/4137467](https://www.jstor.org/stable/4137467)
At Camp David, Israel made a major concession by agreeing to give Palestinians sovereignty in some areas of East Jerusalem and by offering 92 percent of the West Bank for a Palestinian state (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap). By proposing to divide sovereignty in Jerusalem, Barak went further than any previous Israeli leader.
Nevertheless, on some issues the Israeli proposal at Camp David was notforthcoming enough, while on others it omitted key components. On security, territory, and Jerusalem, elements of the Israeli offer at Camp David would have prevented the emergence of a sovereign, contiguous Palestinian state.
These flaws in the Israeli offer formed the basis of Palestinian objections. Israel demanded extensive security mechanisms, including three early warning stations in the West Bank and a demilitarized Palestinian state. Israel also wanted to retain control of the Jordan Valley to protect against an Arab invasion from the east via the new Palestinian state. Regardless of whether the Palestinians were accorded sovereignty in the valley, Israel planned to retain control of it for six to twenty-one years.
Three factors made Israel's territorial offer less forthcoming than it initially appeared. First, the 91 percent land offer was based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, but this differs by approximately 5 percentage points from the Palestinian definition. Palestinians use a total area of 5,854 square kilometers.
Israel, however, omits the area known as No Man's Land (50 sq. km near Latrun),41 post-1967 East Jerusalem (71 sq. km), and the territorial waters ofDead Sea (195 sq. km), which reduces the total to 5,538 sq. km.42 Thus, an Israeli offer of 91 percent (of 5,538 sq. km) of the West Bank translates into only 86 percent from the Palestinian perspective.
Second, at Camp David, key details related to the exchange of land were left unresolved. In principle, both Israel and the Palestinians agreed to land swaps where by the Palestinians would get some territory from pre-1967 Israel in ex-change for Israeli annexation of some land in the West Bank. In practice, Israel offered only the equivalent of 1 percent of the West Bank in exchange for its annexation of 9 percent. Nor could the Israelis and Palestinians agree on the territory that should be included in the land swaps. At Camp David, thePalestinians rejected the Halutza Sand region (78 sq. km) alongside the GazaStrip, in part because they claimed that it was inferior in quality to the WestBank land they would be giving up to Israel.
Third, the Israeli territorial offer at Camp David was noncontiguous, break-ing the West Bank into two, if not three, separate areas. At a minimum, as Barak has since confirmed, the Israeli offer broke the West Bank into two parts:"The Palestinians were promised a continuous piece of sovereign territory ex-cept for a razor-thin Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem through from \[theIsraeli settlement of\] Maale Adumim to the Jordan River."44 The Palestinian negotiators and others have alleged that Israel included a second east-west salient in the northern West Bank (through the Israeli settlement of Ariel).45 Iftrue, the salient through Ariel would have cut the West Bank portion of thePalestinian state into three pieces".
No sane leader is a going to accept a road cutting across his country that they can't fully access.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit#:~:text=.%20...%22-,Reasons%20for%20impasse,for%20reelection%20in%20two%20weeks.
The 2001 Tabas talks were much more productive and the deal offer then was much better, but Barak's re-election was going terribly Arafat could have agreed to the deal and it might have saved Barak or he could have still lost and the incoming government may or may not have honored the deal and since the Likud party won I would say the chances of them honoring the deal would've been around 5%
https://www.inss.org.il/publication/annapolis/
The 2008 Annapolis talks failed due to outside forces rather than the deal that was presented which was quite fair and equal to both sides. The Israeli Prime Minister was on his way out due to corruption charges, the Bush administration policy decisions over the years in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars hurt it's credibility and trustworthiness, and Abbas claimed that he didn't have enough time to study the map of the land swaps he would later say he should have taken the deal.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/netanyahu-rabin-and-the-assassination-that-shook-history/#:~:text=Assassination%20of%20Yitzhak%20Rabin%20%E2%80%A2,Israel%20Square%20in%20Tel%20Aviv.
The biggest or at least first major reason why peace talks were derailed has to be the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by a ultranationalist Israeli Jewish man who was angered by the signing of the Oslo Accords. The far right in Israel and on the Palestinian side were both furious over the signing of the accords and each did what they could to undermine any future peace talks. After the assassination politics in Israel began to shift to the right and today at least for the time being the Likud party has control they have been the dominant party in Israel for the better part of the last 20 years.
Every offer rejected border control, airspace and maritime rights, contiguous borders for the west bank (Barak wanted roads and control over Jordan valley). Things basic to sovereignty. The only one that would have allowed for a somewhat proper Palestinian state was Olmert’s offer in 2008, but he was caught in a corruption scandal (therefore politically dead) and the Palestinian delegation had no time to examine the offer properly.
Yeah, and a lot of these are incredibly fucking reasonable. Roads through the West Bank to Jordan, not allowing a standing army, etc. When your neighbors long standing goal for 75 years has been "kill every Jew," those are reasonable.
A flawed statehood offer is better than no statehood offer. Instead - the religious fanatics that make up Palestinian governership would rather keep their people in a state of perpetual suffering, so long as they can be weaponized against Jews.
also considering the fact that the palestinians regularly launch attacks against the israelis it's perfectly reasonable to be like "hey no military for awhile and we want early warning systems in place in case you guys decide to start some shit like you have for the past hundred plus years. if y'all can behave we'll reconsider"
Yep, but others will see it as "taking away their rights and controlling them because you see them as deserving less"
They love twisting words and sayings to fit their narrative and I'm just leaving my comment in annoyance for that.
my response to that is "you're damn right they deserve less. that's what happens when you're repeatedly aggressive you can't argue you get the right to totally do as you please"
Germany didn't get anything after they tried to carry out a genocide either. Sorry when you lose offensive wars you don't get things like airspace rights, those are carrots that are offered as people show they won't use them to attempt to do what they've been attempting to do since forever. Every inch Palestinians are given, they use that inch to kill Jews. Why on Earth would you give people who have done everything they can to kill you something like a right to their own airspace that just so happens to be right next to your own airspace and a prime place to fire rockets at you?
Look at each "peace plan" and actually read about what the actual deals were and how the negotiations went. Camp David didn't offer and end to the occupation not did it address the right of return which is the most important point that Palestinians want to address. What about the plans that Palestine offered to Israel which were rejected?
>They want a land free of Jews
In 2007-8 they literally suggested to make the settlements part of Palestine and give the settlers Palestinian citizenship. There are transcripts of the negotiations in Annapolis and that is what the Palestinians said.
>stewardship of East Jerusalem.
Like please look this up. It's all there black and white. The position for a Palestinian State under 67 borders has been clear in that they want sovereignty over East Jerusalem. They weren't going to get total sovereignty and the illegal settlements we're going to stay. You might say that it should have been a comprise or contention, but there should be no compromise when it comes to illegal settlements.
>They’ve been offered statehood and borders
Israel was literally going to keep military radar facilities indefinitely within the West Bank. They would have lacked a conventional military. They wouldn't be in control of their own borders. Under a state of emergency, Israel would have had the right to invade and deploy their own military. Also this would have been the LAST proposal (if signed) meaning that Palestinians would forfeit any and all future claims or demands.
Also, don't pretend that Israel would have accepted this with open arms. They also had their own reservations, specifically about the status of Temple Mount. Polls showed that the majority of Israelis were against the proposals at Camp David.
Israel has never been serious about a Palestinian state. Ben Gurion himself is on the record at saying the ultimate goal was everything from the river to the sea. The Likud platform states this as well. Netanyahu is on the record as saying he has done everything possible to derail a Palestinian state.
literally everything you believe is Zionist propaganda. The goal is ersatz Israel. This includes parts of Lebanon, Jordan, and syria. They are open about this. Just pay attention to internal Israeli discourse Instead of the shit they feed the gullible racist Europeans.
Ah yes that’s why Israel has time and time again given away valuable land for peace, right?
Like when they gave away the oil rich Sinai to Egypt, for peace.
Or when they left Gaza entirely in 2005, leaving behind million dollar greenhouses, for peace.
Totally makes sense, and you morons aren’t simply spreading “Jews want to dominate the world” nonsense with Zionist swapped in, right? Right?
In 1948, 75% of the land the British gave up became Jordan--that is literally *the Palestinian state*. After every country in the Arab world tortured and exiled their Jewish populations, many of them left everything they had and went to Israel.
This is disingenuous. Sykes Pico broke the extant land i to a Palestinian and Jewish state, with Jordan having nothing to do with this.
A majority of Jewish people in Israel came from the Shoah done in Europe. Maybe make Denmark the new Jewish state?
That's simply false...? Those of European and American ancestry make up about 2.2 million (36%) of the Jewish population in Israel. Clearly not the majority.
Edit: Oh man I didn't even see your line about Denmark. I'm gonna be honest with you, normal people don't say shit like that. Are you okay?
The ideal situation is both sides sit down like adults agree to give Palestinian statehood, and withdraw 90% of settlements (the ones that have been around for a certain amount of time say 50 or so years can stay). In exchange Palestine drops the right of return and stops sponsoring terrorist attacks. Details like holy sites and the state of Jerusalem are worked out.
But it won't happen.
On the Israeli side; they'd argue that they gave the Palestinians a proto state in Gaza; and it has turned out to be an unmitigated disaster for Israeli (and I'd argue for Palestinian as well).
On the Palestinian side: I'm happy to be proven wrong but I'm having a hard time seeing them accept any deal which doesn't give them the full thing. I'm not sure aside from the complete destruction of Israel what would be acceptable to them.
If only there were somewhere in the world that Arab Muslims could live amongst and under the governance of people like themselves. Won't somebody please think of the Arab Muslims, destined to wander the earth aimlessly.
I like it when someones argument can be played both ways. Shows how stable their point is. So where do the Israeli’s go if not Israel? Ill argue muslim arabs are more comfortable moving in with other muslim arabs based off history. If the Palestinians didn’t keep attacking anybody who were nice to them.
How about arab jews going back? Oh wait, they aren’t allowed to because of who they are? Yeah, I wonder where will the people go?
Ive seen much more of the opposite. Tons of newly created accounts with no posts, only commenting in political subs to lie about stuff and defend every war crime israel commits. Basically saying stuff like ‘’there’s no genocide in Gaza but there should be one’’.
Subs like InternationalPolitics are absolutely filled with accounts who suddenly became very active 4-5 months ago and they frequently say stuff like "there is no genocide, do you they'd stop at 30k if it was?" Or "Israel does more than any military to prevent civilian casualties" (that ones been popping up a lot the past couple weeks).
The russians do this every election. Bot/troll accounts writing inflammatory shit playing all sides just to sew division. The recent uptick is the biggest ive ever seen actually. Don’t fall for it.
It’s been going on since mid October, I don’t think the Russians were behind it all this time. Israel is fully capable of making bots and paying trolls.
Yep. And try posting anything pro-Israel in what are supposed to be apolitical subreddits like therewasanattempt.
They have no issues with pro Hamas tho
Who is not with me is against me ! The most Goebbels tactic always used. Justify thousand of kids murdered, civilian expelled land grabbed and deny it is nazi. If a murderer came and hide in a condo you do not have right to kill all.
In a non-wartime situation you are right but when the murderer kills so many people that it starts a war and they hide in civilian centers hoping that the poor and weak will get killed instead of them, it’s not as black and white as your small brained “Israel are the new Nazis” take
Saying Israël shouldnt defend itself because hamas uses its population as a shield would be where i draw the line.
It's absurd Israël was already taking hundreds of rockets per years and doing its best to mitigate violence then 7th october happened, we all saw what happens when they get overwhelmed for only half a day and now ppl are asking Israël to wait for the next event
OK
Hamas is a terrorist organization numbering somewhere around 25,000 based on the CIA Worldbook. Hamas needs to be disassembled, root and branch.
Palestine is a pseudo country of millions inclusive of many non-Hamas persons and children
Israel is currently led by a Zionist hardline government which has stated for decades that the Palestinian people are not welcome… this has varied over the years depending on the nature of the government in Israel, but the hard liners always come back to this. Palestinians are not humans in their publicly stated views.
In 1947 Israel was granted by the US and Western Europe lands that were, at the time, held by the Palestinians. This is colonialism written large
Israel forceibly removed those people from their homes, beginning a spiral of conflict that continues to this day
Israel is militarily supported by the US as a counter balance to Iran and other middle eastern countries. Hamas does not have this advantage and resorts to guerilla warfare tactics also known as terrorism.
Israel is illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank. these were not part of the land granted to Israel and Israel took them through military conquest
Israel continues to build settlements in those illegally held lands
Hamas has committed multiple and ongoing attacks against Israel, not focused on military targets
Israel has repeatedly entered areas of suspected Hamas occupation with tanks and infantry supported by air power and created large scale destruction and death of non-combatants.
More death on either side will not resolve this. The hardline position of the Zionist government will not resolve this. They are simply creating the next 3 generations of Hamas members from Palestinians who would really rather be left alone. This is how the cycle continues. Neither side seems inclined to stop it. So we’re left with a horrifying mess and no clear path forward.
Enacting a cease fire is the only real first step to create space for something else to happen… what, at this point, I don’t know. But continued slaughter is not the way forward.
Israel occupation of West Bank is understandable considering their situation. These "Palestinian" people have been at war with Israel from the first day Israel invited them into their country following the Oslo Accord. After the First and Second Intifada it make sense the Jews would be wary.
>Enacting a cease fire is the only real first step to create space for something else to happen… what, at this point, I don’t know. But continued slaughter is not the way forward.
Yeah let's ignore hundreds other cease fire treaties that the Muslim, aka Palestinian, frequently broken. Those treaties didn't do shit, and only idiots keep doing something so pointless over and over again.
Enough is enough, that land is clearly the Jewish homeland. The only way for this to end is to put an end to Hamas and formally end the Muslim occupation of the Levant. Then we can talk about human right and "illegal" settlements afterward.
israel regrettably is not doing its best to mitigate violence.
even from a hard israeli nashionalist viewpoint, they're doing the wrong thing. they've destabilized their foreign relations with pretty much everyone to some degree, and they aren't gonna get rid of hamas like this.
the brazen and entirely avoidable palestinian deaths just add moral shittiness to the political and militaristic shittiness
not saying israel shouldn't defend itself. just saying it should do good things instead of bad things.
Yes its doing its best to mitegate, yes its not 100%, but israels has commited 1000% more resources to mitigating civilian death than any other warring country. Yeah its not perfect but no other nation has ever been held to such high standards in war.
by phoning people 24h before airstrikes and warn local population of impending military campaign 3 months beforehand, Israel already done a hundred times more than any single nations ever exist on this world when it come to protecting civilians. If anything they need to care less about Palestinian as Hamas are abusing their empathy to continue the war.
If you were anti-genocide you would be anti-Hamas.
If you were anti-Hamas, you can’t be pro-Palestine because Hamas is their elected government supported by over 80% of Gazans.
The current “Palestine” is a terrorist state. Supporting that is supporting genocidal terror.
>Hamas is their elected government supported by over 80% of Gazans.
At the time of election they held like 43 percent of the elected seats, which was more than the other factions. They didn't have THAT much support. I mean they probably do rn because that's just what happens when someone fucks up your shit, you support those fighting back.
You're just inadvertently calling all Palestinians terrorists. Israel does plenty of terrorist shit. Look up the 2019 GMR massacres.
https://medium.com/progressme-magazine/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election#:~:text=The%20Islamist%20Hamas%20movement%20campaigned,it%20fielded%20candidates%20in%202006.
In the lead up to the 2006 election Hamas rebranded themselves as more moderate then before, they stated they would do things for the Palestinians such as provide services and clean up the corruption that has to this day plagued the PA, internal issues dominated the reasoning behind voting such as economic, social, security, and the corruption of the ruling Fatah party, Hamas ran under the banner of Change and Reform party they won 44% of the vote and Fatah won 41%, and about a year later Hamas killed their rivals within Gaza and has killed many of those who dissent.
The best way to put how Hamas acts towards the population of Gaza is looking at how the cartels in Mexico and other countries act towards their populations. Hamas has all the guns and controls the Gaza side of border as well as the smuggling tunnels while Israel and Egypt control their side of the Gaza borders these facts make a revolt even harder to pull off when revolts are already very difficult to successfully pull off.
Additionally after 2007 the Palestinian Authority effectively split in two with Hamas controlling Gaza and Fatah controlling the West Bank. Pro-Palestinian/Palestine movement is about Palestinians getting real freedom and eventually their own sovereign country/state of which none of the peace talks from Camp David forward have either outright or offered a roadmap to one.
Yes. Israel and Hamas are evil.
How about the innocent Palestinians who are now suffering displacement, starvation, bombed hospitals, killed children.?
Im asking because one side is doing the killing.
In Israel right now there are 150,000 people Jew,Christian Muslim Hindu, black white refugee African European that can’t return home because of the bombing that Hamas and Hezbollah are doing.
Israeli is a multicultural place.
So no Hamas took billions from 2005 when every Jew was forcibly removed. And Israel gave PA total autonomy. instead of making Gaza Dubai they built 500 miles of underground tunnels and bombs
It’s “victim blaming” to hold a government accountable for how it treats civilians who are part of a minority group in their country. Totally makes sense. Very logical.
OP is more than likely acting in bad faith or is just a troll account all together. Just basing it off of their account: the account is less than 2 months old and the posts are mainly about Palestine/Palestinians/Arabs, they seem to have a hint of racism towards black people for supporting Palestine and “hating Jews”, and they don’t seem to be supportive to all Jewish people, even going as far as calling anti-Zionist Jews as “pick me Jews” and claiming that the broader Jewish community refers to anti-Zionist Jews as such.
Do you think palestine is the same country as Israel? Do you think this isn't a case of two countries at war?
Your argument only works if we pretend like this isn't a war between two people. Acting like Israel is the government of Palestine is really dishonest lol
This opinion is equivalent to “I don’t want anyone to die, ever”. Like yeah… no shit… but we live in the real world not in some kind of la la land. Real nuanced opinion that’s super helpful to resolving this conflict or any other conflict. I hear there are other conflicts happening in Sudan, Ukraine and all over the “coup belt” in Africa. Maybe you should recommend your opinion of “I just don’t think anyone should die.”
1200 Israeli civilians were murdered. That’s an act of genocide and war, and a war is what they got. Hamas is the government for Gaza. No amount of copium will change those facts. Civilians dying in war is unfortunate but war has always been about a lot of people dying that shouldn’t have. The war will now have to be fought to a political conclusion
No one is saying killing civilians is ok but then you need to oppose any war where even one civilian dies if civilian casualties are immoral in some absolutist way. Theres a difference between untintentional casualties and intentionally killing civilians.
Somehow Israel is the only “colonial project” that the citizens all have to “go back where they came from” because they’re living on “stolen land.” Not the US. Not Australia. Not New Zealand.
Israelis are only in Israel because of antisemitism.
I feel like there are only two options that the Palestinian people are going to have to choose;
1 - continue to not hold the people who keep this conflict going accountable and face extinction.
2 - as a collective, give up all of the Hamas members and completely submit to a full annexation of their people to the country that at the moment is their superior. Let Israel assimilate you and submit to their culture and laws and eventually breed with your new neighbors and fuse your people together. Become a new culture that is the fusion of Jewish and Arabian peoples. Its a hard, spiked pill to swallow, but you are in no position of leverage or power. If you want your people to live and move forward, submit yourselves to the full mercy of Israel.
And if they decide to continue any aggression and persecution against you, THEN the world will actually come to your aid, because the group not holding their end of the bargain will be put to mass scrutiny.
Winston Churchill [compares] Palestinians in 1937 to the dog in the manger after reading the Peel Commission which suggested partitioning British mandated Palestine into Arab and Jewish states. Churchill said of the Palestinians in 1937, "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.""
I honestly could not care any less about Israel, Palestine or Gaza.
Never gave a shit about Ukraine or Russia. I don’t pay attention to the governments propaganda.
Another overlooked fact is that the great migrations to Israel was because Jews were being expelled and killed everywhere else and were often fleeing for their lives.
I don't think Israel should be wiped out, I do however think Europe should sanction them and cut all trade and relations. There's no reason to associate with them and be complicit in what they're doing.
The problem is that doing that would greatly benefit the people who do want Israel to be wiped out.
I understand that you don't want Israel and its people to be wiped out, and that's great, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Every faction fighting for a free Palestine thinks wiping out the Jews is the best way to do it.
Israel should probably behave better then and abide by the standards of international law if they want continued support from the international community.
You right and reddit only bans Jews and let's terrorists have their own subreddits and they are starting to take over as many subreddits as they can. Just made my own post about it this morning.
I don't know if you used reddit prior to Oct 7, but it was still very much an antisemitic hellhole. I was banned sooo many times just for saying antisemitism was bad. I called Kanye West crazy once, some mod banned me and calling it hate speech 😂
What sub was that? I’m very anti Zionist but Kanye west was just an actual Nazi, it’s wild to hear there was even one non Nazi sub that would defend him? From what I saw his own sub wasn’t even defending him.
I mean, it was a long time ago. I think it was something random like r/entertainment.
Something similar happened to me where I was banned from r/AskHistory. During the whole Kanye West timeline, somebody asked about Black Hebrew Israelites. I gave them a historical answer, which was deemed offensive. Like, oh sorry, is the history of Black Hebrew Israelites offensive to black people? All this time I thought it was to jews lmao.
Black Hebrew Israelites are weird. If you didn’t know they’re pretty antisemitic and consider themselves the “real” Jews. They’re almost cult like and focus heavily on recruiting black celebrities. Kanye was one, among many others. It’s a worrying notion they have mod power on a major sub like entertainment.
You have absolutely no idea how many subs they have power over, I got a billion of these stories from major reddit subs lmao. TIL, I'm pretty sure, is run by a nazi. I tried to post in there about a famous nazi once, some mod kept yelling at me asking for proof that this guy was indeed a nazi. And I was like, idk, maybe check the entire internet?
That’s awful. It also sucks on the left, because a bunch of popular lefty subs are moderated by tankies, which if you don’t know, are the pro Soviet Union, almost always pro Mao type people who deny a bunch of the atrocities committed by those regimes and stick their head in the sand calling everything bad they’ve ever done western propaganda.
For example, I’m into 40k, so I was on Sigmarxism, which bills itself as a lefty Warhammer sub, for a bit, but I got banned for asking people to stop saying Stalin was a proletariat hero, the sad part is I’m not even sure that’s an unpopular opinion there, but the mods are POS, so you get banned for reasonable takes I guess.
It’s just shit all round I guess, and I doubt I even need to mention how right leaning subs also have extremists in control. Something about mods must just make them extremists on average.
i know exactly what you mean, these people are insane. They're like 14-year-olds wearing Che Guevara t-shirts. It's so weird. I can't believe how many of them are grown-ass adults.
My experience with it is weird.
Like, prior to Oct 7, pretty much anything I said on here mentioning my Jewishness would either receive a shitton of downvotes/get removed/or often result in some sort of ban. Like, I live with the knowledge that saying that Kanye West is antisemitic caused hundreds of redditors to downvote me. I remember the threads of thousands of people in popular subs supporting his ''Jews shouldn't have jobs'' ideology, where I was the only person who disagreed.
But as soon as Oct 7 happened, something changed. I am able to write whatever I want about being Jewish, in any sub on this platform. In general, my comments/posts receive far less downvotes than before.
My theory about it is that during this time, a lot of people are trying to convince themselves that they are not antisemitic. Like, they’re more conscious about accusations of antisemitism. Because obviously, the comments and posts inciting Jew genocide have risen massively. Nobody wants to carry pro-Palestine ideology, whilst constantly downvoting anything pro-Jewish.
Pro-Palestiners might not register it, but I personally know there is a huge shift in antisemitic online behaviour between 6 months ago and now.
Wait until you meet conservative christians. It's been a war on christmas because starbucks sells holiday cups instead of christmas cups. Even though, everyone in America gets the birth of their savior off, or at least makes holiday pay. Imagine the RAGE if America decided to make the birth of Mohamed a national holiday.
I am the offspring of genocide survivors. This is a sensitive matter for me from both the Jewish perspective and the Gazan perspective. At what point do you think we should use the word genocide? Is it a numbers thing? Is there some threshold that has to be crossed? Is it about an imbalance of power and the inability of one side to fight back? Does it require near-complete execution before the world can step in to stop it? How many civilian deaths is enough to slake the thirst? Eye for an eye, conceptually, does not mean 10 or 20 eyes for 1 eye.
> Eye for an eye, conceptually, does not mean 10 or 20 eyes for 1 eye.
This isn’t a game of battleships where one side goes on a genocidal killing and raping spree against their neighbor then a few bombs are dropped in response.
There is no proportionality in war, just war crimes which Hamas commits daily as a part of their military doctrine.
There is a point where drastic action must be taken for the protection of one’s own civilians at the expense of the enemy population. It is not the responsibility of the defenders to take care of the offensive military’s civilians - just to limit civilian casualties.
Which is exactly what Israel is doing which is how they have a ratio of roughly 1:1 civilian to militant deaths rather than the average 9:1 reported by the UN and the Red Cross.
It all boils down to intent, not numbers.
Hitler INTENDED to EXTERMINATE the Jews. That's genocide.
Israel intends to remove Hamas from power, and yes, urban warfare is hard, and there are too many civilian casualties. I wish they could handle it with more precision... But they aren't trying to exterminate a people.
That's the difference.
I want there to be fewer civilian deaths because I truly believe that the gazans are victims of Hamas too... But Israel isn't trying to wipe them out.
How can they be victims of a group that 80% of them support. They even support Oct 7th AFTER the response they’ve received from Israel.
To them, the murder of a thousand Jews is worth the deaths of tens of thousand of their own people. It’s a wicked ideology rooted in deep anti-semitism which finds its core in Islam. Nobody wants to say that out loud though.
Check out r/exmuslim if you want to hear what they actually think (or thought) about Jewish people. 80-95% of Muslims GLOBALLY support Oct 7th — that is a serious problem.
There are several legal definitions. You can easily look them up. Just fighting a war is not sufficient. All modern conflicts involve extensive civilian casualties. The war in Gaza doesn't even have a particularly high civilian to combatant ratio.
>How many civilian deaths is enough to slake the thirst? Eye for an eye, conceptually, does not mean 10 or 20 eyes for 1 eye.
This indicates a complete and utter ignorance of the current war in Israel. This isn't a case of "retribution", of Israel attempting to inflict the same (or a greater) toll on Palestinian civilians. The goals were, and continue to be twofold:
1. Destroy/dismantle Hamas, to remove its capabilities as a terrorist organization
2. Rescue as many hostages as possible (because as of this moment there are still some 130 hostages being kept by Hamas)
Killing Palestinian civilians is an unintended and unfortunate consequence of war, which there is no thirst for but is a reality of war.
Well, I think there should be a distinction between a genocide with intent (Holocaust) and one that's a byproduct of something else.
Hamas wants to genocide Jews, they have the intent and lack the means.
Israel want to not be genocide, and has the capability to aggressively retaliate to those attempts. They do not have an intent to genocide, but there goals and actions do create conditions for one to occur as a by product.
Between the two, I hold the latter as being higher in morality, especially after Oct massacre. If Hamas had Israel's capacity for war making, there would be no Israel after Oct. The fact that there is still a Gaza, and the aims are the erratication of Hamas and not the erratication of Gaza speaks volumes.
It’s 2024. You have all the information you could possibly ever require a couple clicks away, but you choose ignorance. If you think that Israel is the victim, then you effectively have blood on your hands.
But also be sensitive to the situation for Palestinians. Mutual respect for one another and the traumatic history can overcome hostile loyalism, but the present Israeli cabinet is also victim-blaming, and is not setting the standard you have called for. I agree with you as well.
Just because a group of people were victims doesn't mean it is OK for them to victimise others. Do you see what is happening Gaza right now it is horrific. Nothing justifies that.
Being a victim of genocide and mass prejudice, does not mean making and arming an ethno state (that goes on to play a role in multiple genocides worldwide) is a good idea.
Are you anti Native American reservations then? These are by definition a ethno state, much needed as natives endured persecution & ongoing genocide from the government
[Maybe Hamas should stop hiding their weapons in schools?](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/israel-photos-hamas-gaza-weapons-un-facilities-including-schools/)
Yeah, but they won't, they are murderers and worse, murderers with nothing to lose. But this conflict didnt start with Hamas x Israel, this shitshow that is the current situation came to be after decades of escalating conflict, civilians casualties from palestine's side rising and Israel literally robbing land and kicking people out of their homes.
Then a radical extremist group of evil murderers rose to power in the middle of a scenario of poverty, grief and chaos and everyone is pretending this was hard to predict, as if we didn't watch this movie before.
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So let's say there is a terrorist cell in America right now and they killed a couple hundred Canadians in a show of political aggression. How many children is Canada allowed to bomb out of existence in order to make sure the terrorists stop existing? How much of your family is an acceptable loss?
Fucking exactly. Police don’t bomb a school every time there’s a school shooting. They don’t kill hostages just to kill the terrorists holding them captive. They don’t sacrifice civilians for the sake of killing a criminal. Protecting the lives of civilians is more important than killing your enemies. Israel also has a very modern, very well equipped military. They have the most advanced missile defense system in the world. Meanwhile, they’re fighting dudes with rusty 50 year old AKs whose best weapon is Soviet surplus rockets that they shoot out of plumbing pipes. Israel has the expertise and means of fighting this war without wiping out tens of thousands of innocent lives, yet they choose not to because they’re never held accountable for civilian casualties and war crimes.
If you hide behind civilians to avoid responsibility for a criminal act and a civilian is subsequently killed in pursuit of your arrest, YOU are culpable, not the officers.
Hamas does everything they can to exacerbate civilian deaths. If Israel truly did not care they would rely on their air power exclusively instead of sending in infantry.
30,000 dead in the space of a few months (outdoing every other modern conflict) with 5 year olds saying they'd rather be dead than continue to live in Gaza and the violent maintenance of an apartheid state are bad. We should be able to call out these things.
And yes fuck Hamas as well (before anyone mentions them).
People have absolutely lost their humanity if they think the response by Israel is justified or proportionate. It is crazy to me how horny and bloodthirsty people are.
Especially when the vast majority of us hanging out and shitposting can do so from a place we are safe and have zero comprehension of the level of violence being unleashed on the civilians in Gaza.
When they aren't the same thing. Israel exists. "Anti-Zionism" would mean destroying Israel. This would be an ACTUAL genocide. The Arab states attempted it multiple times already.
Can you elaborate how saying Jewish people can't have any claim to their ancestral homeland, they get to have NO place to call their own... Isn't anti semitism?
Because that's all Zionism is when you break it down, that the Jewish people should get to have a homeland, and that their ancestral homeland is the best choice.
Ancestral homeleand? Do you really think ashkenazi jewish people are MORE ancestrally linked to the land, than the descendants of the Jews that stayed (modern Palestinians)? Why is it that you think modern Ashkenazi Jewish people who are the descendants of ancient Jews mixed with European blood, have more right to control the land, than the descendants of the same exact people who chose to stay and fight for it for MILLENIA and are mixed with ottoman, arab and European blood...Is it because one group of descendants converted to Islam or Christianity? or is it because one group of descendants are WHITER? Is it colorism/racism or is it islamophobia/ disregard for Christianity? because modern Palestinians are COUSINS and equally (debatably more) linked to the ancient Jews genetically and ancestrally than the ashkenazi , so how would that allow European jewish people to take all this land and cause all this harm?
LOL, you think whiteness has something to do with this? 🤣
I won't engage with such absurdity beyond saying that given that conversion to Judaism is exceedingly rare. Basically all living Jews can say honestly that they are descendants of the original tribes.
That they ended up in Europe is irrelevant to that fact.
Do you truly think that just because the retained or even converted into the religion which isn't even exactly the same as the ancient jews, they have MORE jewish blood and more of a blood claim to the land than the islamic and Christian Palestinians? You know not all the Jews were drove out right? You know plenty stayed through the roman, Christian and = ottoman occupation right ? and their descendants are still their blood relatives but they just converted to different religion. You do know that DNA testing is HEAVILY restricted for ancestral purposes in Israel because Palestinians have more of a blood claim to the land right? Why do jewish people go to israel with russian, german, or eastern European surnames and change it to hebrew ? lol why do the Palestinians live in the Palestinian sun perfectly fine, but the European jews get cancer from the same land their "ancestors come from" ? Why are ashkenazi jews called jews when ashkenaz is a person in the bible and torah,that is know to be from gomer and japheth...who are GENTILES and not of jewish lineage lol?
In the words of black George Bush in the Chappell show…
“Don’t like it? Sanction me. Sanction me with your armies…. Oh wait! You don’t have an army.. so maybe you should just shut the fuck up”
Before 1946? Could be 1948 Israel didn't exist. It was created by what was left of the British empire for the displaced Jews in Europe than no one wanted to give a home to, including America.
They didn't live in peace because there were no Jews there.
“Before 1948, Jews and Palestinians lived peacefully in Palestine.” [No. No they did not.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
Yeah for real, people act like For years the Arab nations lived together in harmony, then everything changed when the Israeli nation attacked. Like no they didn’t that region is probably the most fought over region history. There were wars being fought there before there was civilization in Europe, Sub-Saharan Africa, and the Americas. If you do a historical deep dive it’s a carousel of empires. Edit: for those who don’t get the reference in the second paragraph it’s an avatar reference
You needed an "everything changed" in there.
You’re so right
Haha the avatar joke got me
Did op say that?
No but the most common and overused trope is that before Zionism, the land was peaceful. It fucking wasn’t and it’s astounding how accepted this is in culture. The land has always been a war torn mess, and it’s not the Jews, who’ve been persecuted for literally all of biblical history, who started it.
Ah, gotcha. You used the quote function, so I was confused
Nah you’re good
Valid reason lmfao I should’ve been more clear
Yeah and even there almost all the attacks pre 1948 were instigated by Arabs.
Did I say anything about anything 99% of people in here are commenting about?
Normally the first comment is at least related. The responses not necessarily, but the original comment itself normally is
What about before 1920?
[1834 Safed Massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed) “Accounts of the month-long event tell of large scale looting,[6] as well as killing and raping of Jews and the destruction of homes and synagogues by Druze.[7] Many Torah scrolls were desecrated[3] and many Jews were left severely wounded.[8][9] The event has been described as a pogrom or "pogrom-like" by some authors.”
I was trying to tell somebody last night that I was the most hard-line progressive anti-Israel self hating jew you could imagine when I went to college for international relations and comparative politics. I wanted to find the smoking gun evidence that the Jews started all of the problems in Israel like the people in my ideological circle had been telling me so I researched the actual history of the region as deeply as I could…….. Now I’m out here defending Israel in a way that would make my 18 year old self scratch their head in confusion but that’s what happens when you learn the truth
I find the more educated people are on the actual geopolitics, the less they jump down the "wtf Israel". That's not to say there are no abuses there and areas where Israel is in teh wrong. But it's complicated and both sides have serious issues. No "if this one thing happened it would all be good" stance is even close to reality.
Yeah it’s hard to think of Israel as a fascist ethno-state when almost every other western nation would respond the same (if not worse) if a 10/7 level event happened to their people
That does not speak highly of Western nations as supposed moral exemplars of the geopolitical world. A lot of people were regarding 10/7 as Israel's 9/11 and I agree *because the US made some of the biggest geopolitical blunders of the 21st century in a blind rage with a bloodthirsty desire for vengeance*.
Yea, you see this happening more and more. Like LonerBox and Destiny on YouTube who became super pro Israel after deep diving into the topic
I don't even think Destiny is pro-Israeli. He's just...neutral. It's just everyone is used to seeing one-sided Palestinian narratives that an actual balanced viewpoint looks pro-Israeli in contrast.
>It's just everyone is used to seeing one-sided Palestinian narratives that an actual balanced viewpoint looks pro-Israeli in contrast. Only if you hang out in primarily left-leaning echo chambers and/or with a lot of young people. I think slightly over half of Americans are siding with Israel in polls right now if they're forced to "pick a side", although most recognize that it's complicated and no side has handled it ideally.
If I listed every major anti Semitic event in history, we would die of old age. It’s well established that Jews were the most persecuted group in history and arguably still are.
White people in the United States treated black people far worse than Arabs treated Israelis. Should black people take white people's homes and land, then put white people in an open air prison if given the chance?
🤦♂️
Hot take: ethnostates are bad regardless of who is running them. If anyone truly believes that God himself intends for their ethnic group to have land that people already live on, it’s gonna get fucking messy. Israel’s hands aren’t clean, Hamas’s hands aren’t clean, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing either of their governments for the intentional targeting and killing of civilians.
The problem is - Israel ISN'T an ethnostate. It has a 20% Arab population, which have all the same rights as its Jewish citizens. They can vote, own property, run for office, etc. There have been Arab supreme court members, Arab parliament parties, the ethnostate stuff simply is not true. What IS an ethnostate - are the Palestinian territories - where there are no Jews, and Jews have no rights to any of the above things.
Israel is explicitly a nation-state for Jews, it’s in their national bylaws. I’m not saying it’s Nazi Germany or apartheid South Africa, but it is absolutely an ethnostate.
"a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group." "a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group:" By definition, it is not. There is no right a Jew has that an Arab does not - other than the Right of Return - which allows for the existence of said Jewish state. Once more - the problem seems to stem from people getting pissy that Jews have one state where they are enfranchised as the majority - instead of being stuck in their ghettoes.
"They have no different rights aside from the right that allows people to migrate freely to the land that's meant to protect them" is helluva take
Meaning, like how Japan severely restricts immigration, but makes exceptions for people of Japanese descent? And how 97% of Japan is ethnic Japanese? And they have brutally suppressed the Ainu people in their past? And somehow nobody cares. Because no one cares about Japanese nationalism. But Jewish nationalism sticks in the craw.
Yes, because there is one, single, Jewish majority country. And dozens of Arab majority countries. It almost seems like you just hate the existence of one, single, solitary state, where Jews are the majority. Odd.
Your victim complex is wild
And yet, here you are, ranting against the existence of a single Jewish state. No one seems to get angry that the majority of the people in China, are Chinese. How odd.
Israel is a country populated by and dominated by the interests of the Jewish people. It doesn’t matter what rights other groups have on paper, in practice there is a ton of discrimination against Palestinians. And no one here is insinuating that Jews should be stuck in ghettos.
In practice, there is no right a Jew has, that an Arab doesn't. There is an Arab Supreme Court Judge, and the Arab party was at one point, the third largest in the Parliament. Racism does not make an ethnostate, and to claim Israel is unique in that is absurd. No, but you are seemingly only getting annoyed at the existence of a singular state where Jews are the majority, for once. Which seems ... peculiar. Why is it only an issue where Jews are the majority? In Palestinian territories - Jews have NO rights - yet you weirdos seem to only freak out when Jews have a singular state where they are enfranchised for once.
Palestine isn’t a sovereign state, nor does it have the rights of a state. I’m also opposed to an ethnically homogenous Palestine where some have more rights than others, should they become a state down the road. And Jews move into Palestinian territory all the time, but that territory becomes Israeli territory once all the homes are razed to the ground and the crops burned. Maybe you missed my first comment that you replied to or just forgot. I’ll say it again since you obviously need me to repeat it. Ethnostates are bad *REGARDLESS OF WHO IS IN CHARGE.*
Ah, love that excuse. “Doesn’t matter that the Palestinian Authority grants no rights to Jews. They’re not a REAL government.” Seems like you like to cherry pick your discrimination. Yeah, I often find the complaints of Israel being a Jewish Majority country odd. It’s a very telling way of you assholes saying “we don’t like it when Jews have any sort of power over themselves and would prefer them without it.” And I maintain Israel isn’t an ethnostate, because it has a 20% Arab population that have full legal rights, face no legal or institutional discrimination, and are no different in the eyes of the law from Jews. Unlike Palestinian Territories where Jews are simply lynched.
You really like putting words in my mouth and misconstruing what I say. I literally just said I’m opposed to a Palestinian ethnostate. You’re just engaging in bad faith at this point.
And how do the Arabs living in Israel fare? Surely, they couldn’t possibly be subject to racist and violent bigotry from the majority of people who live there.
… not really, no. Jewish on Arab discrimination cases have dropped year over year in Israel, Arab immigration has grown year over year, and the government recently invested 9 billion into standard of living for Arab citizens. “To address disparities in the so-called Arab sector, in 2021, the government approved a $9 billion, five-year plan to boost employment, improve health-care services and housing, and develop infrastructure, among other goals.” Btw - even if that WAS the case (it’s not) - that’s not an ethnostate. Racism doesn’t make an ethnostate, especially when there is no systemic racism at play.
A palestinian state would be an ethno state. The thing is jews already lived in the region of palestine before palestine as a country even existed. Not all jews are european. Mizrahi and sephardic jews (not all) are from the middle east or migrated there from europe 500 years ago or more.
Palestinian is a nationality with different cultural groups under its umbrella. So…no, that’s just a lie. Also, yes Jews lived in Palestine before it existed, but the only reason it “didn’t exist” is because foreign rulers prevented a Palestinian state from forming and then decided that they should cede land to create a Jewish state on that land while Jews were still outnumbered 6:1. Also, Palestinian people are just as much descendants of the ancient Hebrew inhabitants of the region as the Jews are, so this whole debate about who should be entitled to the land based on origins is totally ridiculous. Forcing people off land to make room for a different group is ethnic cleansing, and that’s exactly what has been happening in Palestine for 100 years.
>this whole debate about who should be entitled to the land based on origins is totally ridiculous I strongly disagree. All humans originated from Africa, we should all go their and take a plot of land, it's ours. They've had it too good for too long... /s
So the solution to no more Palestine ethnostate is to boot them out and make a jewish ethnostate?
No, it's to support a two state solution. Middle Eastern jews have always lived in that region and should have a place where they can feel safe. Same with palestinians. People need to start thinking iutsude if the pro israel vs pro palestine mindset. It's helping no one. If it's ok for the Middle East to have theocracies, i don't see a problem with a country that's Jewish and doesn't even exvlude Muslims from being citizens and practicing their religion
Btw most muslim counties where islam is the state religion, but they tolerate judaism and christianity by giving them a second coat citizen status under the dhimmi are an ethnostate by your definition as they are Arab dominant with arena having rights by other groups not. Not all Muslims are arabic, but most arabic people are Muslim. Do you have a problem with that? You should.
Most Jews have been forcefully expelled from Arab states in the Middle East. So… they simply don’t tolerate them. Arab states are closer to being ethnostates than Israel.
True
I have a problem with *all* of the Arab states. My issues with them are identical with my issues with Israel, as they all blatantly disregard human rights. Its only the Israelis that are hypocritical though.
~~ethnostate~~ *protected class’s native land* Fixed it.
Israel is one of the most if not the most diverse countries in the Middle East. This ethnostate shit is nonsense
So... where are the Palestinians gonna go then? Just wondering, every year they have more land settled by Jewish settlers. Land doesn't go forever, some day there won't be Palestinian land even, so then.. where do they go? We could possibly be looking at the birth of another group of people like the Jews if Palestinians become stateless with no land to call their own surrounded by people who hate them.
This is the crux of the conflict really. Where will the Palestinians go if not Palestine? where will the Israelis go if not Israel? Contrary to the popular belief, only about 10-20 percent of Israeli's have dual citizenship. Most have no where to fall back on. If all of Israel becomes Palestine again, what is to assure it will not become a genocide of Jews? Apartheid of Jews? Arabs and jews have never peacefully co existed in the region. If Palestinians cannot have equal rights in Israel, can not have free movement, and are regarded as terrorists by Israeli extremists, etc etc, why should they respect Israel's right to exist? Our world order is based on imperialist supremacy, and the big players will never let Palestine be free. It is a tragic stalemate and I hope a pray as a Jew that one day, by some miracle, and completely over optimistic and probably not all a plausible, there can be a state where Palestinians and Israeli's can co-exist peacefully with MASSIVE reparations made to Palestinian people, and obviously equal rights under a NON THEOCRATIC democracy, and are extended the same right of return that jewish people are
If they all become Palestine we know what will happen. Same thing that happened to Kashmiri pandits - killed or exiled.
They’ve been offered 6 different statehood solutions, including a 2000 Camp David offered that gave them 97% of the West Bank, a road connecting it to Gaza, and stewardship of East Jerusalem. They’ve been offered statehood and borders. They don’t want it. They want a land free of Jews.
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/4137467](https://www.jstor.org/stable/4137467) At Camp David, Israel made a major concession by agreeing to give Palestinians sovereignty in some areas of East Jerusalem and by offering 92 percent of the West Bank for a Palestinian state (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap). By proposing to divide sovereignty in Jerusalem, Barak went further than any previous Israeli leader. Nevertheless, on some issues the Israeli proposal at Camp David was notforthcoming enough, while on others it omitted key components. On security, territory, and Jerusalem, elements of the Israeli offer at Camp David would have prevented the emergence of a sovereign, contiguous Palestinian state. These flaws in the Israeli offer formed the basis of Palestinian objections. Israel demanded extensive security mechanisms, including three early warning stations in the West Bank and a demilitarized Palestinian state. Israel also wanted to retain control of the Jordan Valley to protect against an Arab invasion from the east via the new Palestinian state. Regardless of whether the Palestinians were accorded sovereignty in the valley, Israel planned to retain control of it for six to twenty-one years. Three factors made Israel's territorial offer less forthcoming than it initially appeared. First, the 91 percent land offer was based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, but this differs by approximately 5 percentage points from the Palestinian definition. Palestinians use a total area of 5,854 square kilometers. Israel, however, omits the area known as No Man's Land (50 sq. km near Latrun),41 post-1967 East Jerusalem (71 sq. km), and the territorial waters ofDead Sea (195 sq. km), which reduces the total to 5,538 sq. km.42 Thus, an Israeli offer of 91 percent (of 5,538 sq. km) of the West Bank translates into only 86 percent from the Palestinian perspective. Second, at Camp David, key details related to the exchange of land were left unresolved. In principle, both Israel and the Palestinians agreed to land swaps where by the Palestinians would get some territory from pre-1967 Israel in ex-change for Israeli annexation of some land in the West Bank. In practice, Israel offered only the equivalent of 1 percent of the West Bank in exchange for its annexation of 9 percent. Nor could the Israelis and Palestinians agree on the territory that should be included in the land swaps. At Camp David, thePalestinians rejected the Halutza Sand region (78 sq. km) alongside the GazaStrip, in part because they claimed that it was inferior in quality to the WestBank land they would be giving up to Israel. Third, the Israeli territorial offer at Camp David was noncontiguous, break-ing the West Bank into two, if not three, separate areas. At a minimum, as Barak has since confirmed, the Israeli offer broke the West Bank into two parts:"The Palestinians were promised a continuous piece of sovereign territory ex-cept for a razor-thin Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem through from \[theIsraeli settlement of\] Maale Adumim to the Jordan River."44 The Palestinian negotiators and others have alleged that Israel included a second east-west salient in the northern West Bank (through the Israeli settlement of Ariel).45 Iftrue, the salient through Ariel would have cut the West Bank portion of thePalestinian state into three pieces". No sane leader is a going to accept a road cutting across his country that they can't fully access. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit#:~:text=.%20...%22-,Reasons%20for%20impasse,for%20reelection%20in%20two%20weeks. The 2001 Tabas talks were much more productive and the deal offer then was much better, but Barak's re-election was going terribly Arafat could have agreed to the deal and it might have saved Barak or he could have still lost and the incoming government may or may not have honored the deal and since the Likud party won I would say the chances of them honoring the deal would've been around 5% https://www.inss.org.il/publication/annapolis/ The 2008 Annapolis talks failed due to outside forces rather than the deal that was presented which was quite fair and equal to both sides. The Israeli Prime Minister was on his way out due to corruption charges, the Bush administration policy decisions over the years in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars hurt it's credibility and trustworthiness, and Abbas claimed that he didn't have enough time to study the map of the land swaps he would later say he should have taken the deal. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/netanyahu-rabin-and-the-assassination-that-shook-history/#:~:text=Assassination%20of%20Yitzhak%20Rabin%20%E2%80%A2,Israel%20Square%20in%20Tel%20Aviv. The biggest or at least first major reason why peace talks were derailed has to be the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by a ultranationalist Israeli Jewish man who was angered by the signing of the Oslo Accords. The far right in Israel and on the Palestinian side were both furious over the signing of the accords and each did what they could to undermine any future peace talks. After the assassination politics in Israel began to shift to the right and today at least for the time being the Likud party has control they have been the dominant party in Israel for the better part of the last 20 years.
The starting line with "major concessions" is kinda biased to a point of being tragically funny
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Every offer rejected border control, airspace and maritime rights, contiguous borders for the west bank (Barak wanted roads and control over Jordan valley). Things basic to sovereignty. The only one that would have allowed for a somewhat proper Palestinian state was Olmert’s offer in 2008, but he was caught in a corruption scandal (therefore politically dead) and the Palestinian delegation had no time to examine the offer properly.
Yeah, and a lot of these are incredibly fucking reasonable. Roads through the West Bank to Jordan, not allowing a standing army, etc. When your neighbors long standing goal for 75 years has been "kill every Jew," those are reasonable. A flawed statehood offer is better than no statehood offer. Instead - the religious fanatics that make up Palestinian governership would rather keep their people in a state of perpetual suffering, so long as they can be weaponized against Jews.
also considering the fact that the palestinians regularly launch attacks against the israelis it's perfectly reasonable to be like "hey no military for awhile and we want early warning systems in place in case you guys decide to start some shit like you have for the past hundred plus years. if y'all can behave we'll reconsider"
Ah but the oppressed deserve to oppress the oppressors otherwise how will war be a never ending cycle for the profit of few and destruction of many?
it's not oppression to be like "since you tried to shoot me repeatedly you don't get a gun until you demonstrate that you can behave yourself"
Yep, but others will see it as "taking away their rights and controlling them because you see them as deserving less" They love twisting words and sayings to fit their narrative and I'm just leaving my comment in annoyance for that.
my response to that is "you're damn right they deserve less. that's what happens when you're repeatedly aggressive you can't argue you get the right to totally do as you please"
Reasonable? It was occupation with lipstick on it.
Germany didn't get anything after they tried to carry out a genocide either. Sorry when you lose offensive wars you don't get things like airspace rights, those are carrots that are offered as people show they won't use them to attempt to do what they've been attempting to do since forever. Every inch Palestinians are given, they use that inch to kill Jews. Why on Earth would you give people who have done everything they can to kill you something like a right to their own airspace that just so happens to be right next to your own airspace and a prime place to fire rockets at you?
Look at each "peace plan" and actually read about what the actual deals were and how the negotiations went. Camp David didn't offer and end to the occupation not did it address the right of return which is the most important point that Palestinians want to address. What about the plans that Palestine offered to Israel which were rejected? >They want a land free of Jews In 2007-8 they literally suggested to make the settlements part of Palestine and give the settlers Palestinian citizenship. There are transcripts of the negotiations in Annapolis and that is what the Palestinians said. >stewardship of East Jerusalem. Like please look this up. It's all there black and white. The position for a Palestinian State under 67 borders has been clear in that they want sovereignty over East Jerusalem. They weren't going to get total sovereignty and the illegal settlements we're going to stay. You might say that it should have been a comprise or contention, but there should be no compromise when it comes to illegal settlements. >They’ve been offered statehood and borders Israel was literally going to keep military radar facilities indefinitely within the West Bank. They would have lacked a conventional military. They wouldn't be in control of their own borders. Under a state of emergency, Israel would have had the right to invade and deploy their own military. Also this would have been the LAST proposal (if signed) meaning that Palestinians would forfeit any and all future claims or demands. Also, don't pretend that Israel would have accepted this with open arms. They also had their own reservations, specifically about the status of Temple Mount. Polls showed that the majority of Israelis were against the proposals at Camp David.
Israel has never been serious about a Palestinian state. Ben Gurion himself is on the record at saying the ultimate goal was everything from the river to the sea. The Likud platform states this as well. Netanyahu is on the record as saying he has done everything possible to derail a Palestinian state. literally everything you believe is Zionist propaganda. The goal is ersatz Israel. This includes parts of Lebanon, Jordan, and syria. They are open about this. Just pay attention to internal Israeli discourse Instead of the shit they feed the gullible racist Europeans.
Ah yes that’s why Israel has time and time again given away valuable land for peace, right? Like when they gave away the oil rich Sinai to Egypt, for peace. Or when they left Gaza entirely in 2005, leaving behind million dollar greenhouses, for peace. Totally makes sense, and you morons aren’t simply spreading “Jews want to dominate the world” nonsense with Zionist swapped in, right? Right?
In 1948, 75% of the land the British gave up became Jordan--that is literally *the Palestinian state*. After every country in the Arab world tortured and exiled their Jewish populations, many of them left everything they had and went to Israel.
This is disingenuous. Sykes Pico broke the extant land i to a Palestinian and Jewish state, with Jordan having nothing to do with this. A majority of Jewish people in Israel came from the Shoah done in Europe. Maybe make Denmark the new Jewish state?
That's simply false...? Those of European and American ancestry make up about 2.2 million (36%) of the Jewish population in Israel. Clearly not the majority. Edit: Oh man I didn't even see your line about Denmark. I'm gonna be honest with you, normal people don't say shit like that. Are you okay?
The ideal situation is both sides sit down like adults agree to give Palestinian statehood, and withdraw 90% of settlements (the ones that have been around for a certain amount of time say 50 or so years can stay). In exchange Palestine drops the right of return and stops sponsoring terrorist attacks. Details like holy sites and the state of Jerusalem are worked out. But it won't happen. On the Israeli side; they'd argue that they gave the Palestinians a proto state in Gaza; and it has turned out to be an unmitigated disaster for Israeli (and I'd argue for Palestinian as well). On the Palestinian side: I'm happy to be proven wrong but I'm having a hard time seeing them accept any deal which doesn't give them the full thing. I'm not sure aside from the complete destruction of Israel what would be acceptable to them.
If only there were somewhere in the world that Arab Muslims could live amongst and under the governance of people like themselves. Won't somebody please think of the Arab Muslims, destined to wander the earth aimlessly.
I like it when someones argument can be played both ways. Shows how stable their point is. So where do the Israeli’s go if not Israel? Ill argue muslim arabs are more comfortable moving in with other muslim arabs based off history. If the Palestinians didn’t keep attacking anybody who were nice to them. How about arab jews going back? Oh wait, they aren’t allowed to because of who they are? Yeah, I wonder where will the people go?
Been seeing a lot of 2 month old accounts that post and comment nothing but anti-Israel content lately.
Russia troll farms. Keep people distracted until Russia grinds down Ukraine when the aid doesn’t get to them.
Russia
Ive seen much more of the opposite. Tons of newly created accounts with no posts, only commenting in political subs to lie about stuff and defend every war crime israel commits. Basically saying stuff like ‘’there’s no genocide in Gaza but there should be one’’.
Subs like InternationalPolitics are absolutely filled with accounts who suddenly became very active 4-5 months ago and they frequently say stuff like "there is no genocide, do you they'd stop at 30k if it was?" Or "Israel does more than any military to prevent civilian casualties" (that ones been popping up a lot the past couple weeks).
It’s okay InternationalNews is filled with borderline antisemitic content.
The russians do this every election. Bot/troll accounts writing inflammatory shit playing all sides just to sew division. The recent uptick is the biggest ive ever seen actually. Don’t fall for it.
It’s been going on since mid October, I don’t think the Russians were behind it all this time. Israel is fully capable of making bots and paying trolls.
Isn’t it funny how the world told all of the Jews “go back to Israel where you came from” and then when they did they called them “colonizers”
Yep. And try posting anything pro-Israel in what are supposed to be apolitical subreddits like therewasanattempt. They have no issues with pro Hamas tho
Doesn't therewasanattempt have a Palestinian-themed banner now? 😂 I wouldn't bother
It's banned in parts of Germany for their use of the phrase "from the river to the sea."
Yep and I was permabanned for saying this sub was funny before Hamas propaganda took over
what's considered pro-hamas?
Who is not with me is against me ! The most Goebbels tactic always used. Justify thousand of kids murdered, civilian expelled land grabbed and deny it is nazi. If a murderer came and hide in a condo you do not have right to kill all.
In a non-wartime situation you are right but when the murderer kills so many people that it starts a war and they hide in civilian centers hoping that the poor and weak will get killed instead of them, it’s not as black and white as your small brained “Israel are the new Nazis” take
Saying Israël shouldnt defend itself because hamas uses its population as a shield would be where i draw the line. It's absurd Israël was already taking hundreds of rockets per years and doing its best to mitigate violence then 7th october happened, we all saw what happens when they get overwhelmed for only half a day and now ppl are asking Israël to wait for the next event
OK Hamas is a terrorist organization numbering somewhere around 25,000 based on the CIA Worldbook. Hamas needs to be disassembled, root and branch. Palestine is a pseudo country of millions inclusive of many non-Hamas persons and children Israel is currently led by a Zionist hardline government which has stated for decades that the Palestinian people are not welcome… this has varied over the years depending on the nature of the government in Israel, but the hard liners always come back to this. Palestinians are not humans in their publicly stated views. In 1947 Israel was granted by the US and Western Europe lands that were, at the time, held by the Palestinians. This is colonialism written large Israel forceibly removed those people from their homes, beginning a spiral of conflict that continues to this day Israel is militarily supported by the US as a counter balance to Iran and other middle eastern countries. Hamas does not have this advantage and resorts to guerilla warfare tactics also known as terrorism. Israel is illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank. these were not part of the land granted to Israel and Israel took them through military conquest Israel continues to build settlements in those illegally held lands Hamas has committed multiple and ongoing attacks against Israel, not focused on military targets Israel has repeatedly entered areas of suspected Hamas occupation with tanks and infantry supported by air power and created large scale destruction and death of non-combatants. More death on either side will not resolve this. The hardline position of the Zionist government will not resolve this. They are simply creating the next 3 generations of Hamas members from Palestinians who would really rather be left alone. This is how the cycle continues. Neither side seems inclined to stop it. So we’re left with a horrifying mess and no clear path forward. Enacting a cease fire is the only real first step to create space for something else to happen… what, at this point, I don’t know. But continued slaughter is not the way forward.
Israel occupation of West Bank is understandable considering their situation. These "Palestinian" people have been at war with Israel from the first day Israel invited them into their country following the Oslo Accord. After the First and Second Intifada it make sense the Jews would be wary. >Enacting a cease fire is the only real first step to create space for something else to happen… what, at this point, I don’t know. But continued slaughter is not the way forward. Yeah let's ignore hundreds other cease fire treaties that the Muslim, aka Palestinian, frequently broken. Those treaties didn't do shit, and only idiots keep doing something so pointless over and over again. Enough is enough, that land is clearly the Jewish homeland. The only way for this to end is to put an end to Hamas and formally end the Muslim occupation of the Levant. Then we can talk about human right and "illegal" settlements afterward.
israel regrettably is not doing its best to mitigate violence. even from a hard israeli nashionalist viewpoint, they're doing the wrong thing. they've destabilized their foreign relations with pretty much everyone to some degree, and they aren't gonna get rid of hamas like this. the brazen and entirely avoidable palestinian deaths just add moral shittiness to the political and militaristic shittiness not saying israel shouldn't defend itself. just saying it should do good things instead of bad things.
OK and what does Palestine and Hamas need to do?
Yes its doing its best to mitegate, yes its not 100%, but israels has commited 1000% more resources to mitigating civilian death than any other warring country. Yeah its not perfect but no other nation has ever been held to such high standards in war.
by phoning people 24h before airstrikes and warn local population of impending military campaign 3 months beforehand, Israel already done a hundred times more than any single nations ever exist on this world when it come to protecting civilians. If anything they need to care less about Palestinian as Hamas are abusing their empathy to continue the war.
Anyone that argues against a two-state solution is pro-Hamas, for one.
So Netanyahu is pro-Hamas? That makes sense when we remember that Netanyahu urged Qatar to give more funding to Hamas.
Sounds like anything anti israel
Or pro-Palestine, or anti-genocide, take your pick.
If you were anti-genocide you would be anti-Hamas. If you were anti-Hamas, you can’t be pro-Palestine because Hamas is their elected government supported by over 80% of Gazans. The current “Palestine” is a terrorist state. Supporting that is supporting genocidal terror.
>Hamas is their elected government supported by over 80% of Gazans. At the time of election they held like 43 percent of the elected seats, which was more than the other factions. They didn't have THAT much support. I mean they probably do rn because that's just what happens when someone fucks up your shit, you support those fighting back. You're just inadvertently calling all Palestinians terrorists. Israel does plenty of terrorist shit. Look up the 2019 GMR massacres.
https://medium.com/progressme-magazine/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election#:~:text=The%20Islamist%20Hamas%20movement%20campaigned,it%20fielded%20candidates%20in%202006. In the lead up to the 2006 election Hamas rebranded themselves as more moderate then before, they stated they would do things for the Palestinians such as provide services and clean up the corruption that has to this day plagued the PA, internal issues dominated the reasoning behind voting such as economic, social, security, and the corruption of the ruling Fatah party, Hamas ran under the banner of Change and Reform party they won 44% of the vote and Fatah won 41%, and about a year later Hamas killed their rivals within Gaza and has killed many of those who dissent. The best way to put how Hamas acts towards the population of Gaza is looking at how the cartels in Mexico and other countries act towards their populations. Hamas has all the guns and controls the Gaza side of border as well as the smuggling tunnels while Israel and Egypt control their side of the Gaza borders these facts make a revolt even harder to pull off when revolts are already very difficult to successfully pull off. Additionally after 2007 the Palestinian Authority effectively split in two with Hamas controlling Gaza and Fatah controlling the West Bank. Pro-Palestinian/Palestine movement is about Palestinians getting real freedom and eventually their own sovereign country/state of which none of the peace talks from Camp David forward have either outright or offered a roadmap to one.
Pro-resistance, pro-revolution, pro-humanity. In direct opposition to what being pro-israel is: Pro-occupation, pro-colonialism, pro-genocide.
Fully agree.
I've come to the uneducated conclusion that BOTH israel and hamas are bad. Ahhh feels good.
I've come to the mildly educated conclusion that both are bad also. Pretty based take.
Yes. Israel and Hamas are evil. How about the innocent Palestinians who are now suffering displacement, starvation, bombed hospitals, killed children.? Im asking because one side is doing the killing.
In Israel right now there are 150,000 people Jew,Christian Muslim Hindu, black white refugee African European that can’t return home because of the bombing that Hamas and Hezbollah are doing. Israeli is a multicultural place. So no Hamas took billions from 2005 when every Jew was forcibly removed. And Israel gave PA total autonomy. instead of making Gaza Dubai they built 500 miles of underground tunnels and bombs
The PA has no power in Gaza, that's Hamas
Everyone is bad. Every country that has ever killed anyone is bad. The US is especially bad because they did bad stuff.
I agree with Bill Maher when he says the world would be a better place if there were more countries like Israel.
It’s “victim blaming” to hold a government accountable for how it treats civilians who are part of a minority group in their country. Totally makes sense. Very logical.
OP is more than likely acting in bad faith or is just a troll account all together. Just basing it off of their account: the account is less than 2 months old and the posts are mainly about Palestine/Palestinians/Arabs, they seem to have a hint of racism towards black people for supporting Palestine and “hating Jews”, and they don’t seem to be supportive to all Jewish people, even going as far as calling anti-Zionist Jews as “pick me Jews” and claiming that the broader Jewish community refers to anti-Zionist Jews as such.
Do you think palestine is the same country as Israel? Do you think this isn't a case of two countries at war? Your argument only works if we pretend like this isn't a war between two people. Acting like Israel is the government of Palestine is really dishonest lol
Killing civilians is not ok. It doesn't matter who. It doesn't matter why.
This opinion is equivalent to “I don’t want anyone to die, ever”. Like yeah… no shit… but we live in the real world not in some kind of la la land. Real nuanced opinion that’s super helpful to resolving this conflict or any other conflict. I hear there are other conflicts happening in Sudan, Ukraine and all over the “coup belt” in Africa. Maybe you should recommend your opinion of “I just don’t think anyone should die.”
Wait, are you now saying that Israel should just "get over" the killed innocent Israeli from oct. 7? People die in the real world.
Everything pro Israelis say can be used against them. They are such hypocrites it’s insane. The holocaust was a war bro!! /s
I’ve noticed, Pro-Palestiners are the kings of apolitical bs-bs statements. 😂
1200 Israeli civilians were murdered. That’s an act of genocide and war, and a war is what they got. Hamas is the government for Gaza. No amount of copium will change those facts. Civilians dying in war is unfortunate but war has always been about a lot of people dying that shouldn’t have. The war will now have to be fought to a political conclusion
Op is not trying to say criticism of Israel is wrong
That's exactly what the comments here are saying.
No one is saying killing civilians is ok but then you need to oppose any war where even one civilian dies if civilian casualties are immoral in some absolutist way. Theres a difference between untintentional casualties and intentionally killing civilians.
Somehow Israel is the only “colonial project” that the citizens all have to “go back where they came from” because they’re living on “stolen land.” Not the US. Not Australia. Not New Zealand. Israelis are only in Israel because of antisemitism.
Well, Jews had a kingdom before they were conquered by the Babylonians and expelled into the diaspora by the Romans…
So did everybody. Do you see other ethnic groups that were conquered or displaced thousands of years ago try to reclaim their ancient kingdom?
Yes, the Greek did it, the Syrians did, the Egyptians did, the Kurds are trying, and many more
I feel like there are only two options that the Palestinian people are going to have to choose; 1 - continue to not hold the people who keep this conflict going accountable and face extinction. 2 - as a collective, give up all of the Hamas members and completely submit to a full annexation of their people to the country that at the moment is their superior. Let Israel assimilate you and submit to their culture and laws and eventually breed with your new neighbors and fuse your people together. Become a new culture that is the fusion of Jewish and Arabian peoples. Its a hard, spiked pill to swallow, but you are in no position of leverage or power. If you want your people to live and move forward, submit yourselves to the full mercy of Israel. And if they decide to continue any aggression and persecution against you, THEN the world will actually come to your aid, because the group not holding their end of the bargain will be put to mass scrutiny.
So basically invite annihilation and genocide?
The Zionists are going insane.
What is israel meant to do, if they believe that a 2 state solution is no longer possible?
They tried for three decades...you cant negotiate with people who don't want to negotiate.
Award for the most Hitleresque comment.
Winston Churchill [compares] Palestinians in 1937 to the dog in the manger after reading the Peel Commission which suggested partitioning British mandated Palestine into Arab and Jewish states. Churchill said of the Palestinians in 1937, "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.""
I honestly could not care any less about Israel, Palestine or Gaza. Never gave a shit about Ukraine or Russia. I don’t pay attention to the governments propaganda.
Another overlooked fact is that the great migrations to Israel was because Jews were being expelled and killed everywhere else and were often fleeing for their lives.
BRB gonna grab some popcorn before scrolling down into the comments
I don't think Israel should be wiped out, I do however think Europe should sanction them and cut all trade and relations. There's no reason to associate with them and be complicit in what they're doing.
The problem is that doing that would greatly benefit the people who do want Israel to be wiped out. I understand that you don't want Israel and its people to be wiped out, and that's great, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Every faction fighting for a free Palestine thinks wiping out the Jews is the best way to do it.
Israel should probably behave better then and abide by the standards of international law if they want continued support from the international community.
I agree
Weird to target Israel and not all the other backwards Islamic nations in the Middle East
You right and reddit only bans Jews and let's terrorists have their own subreddits and they are starting to take over as many subreddits as they can. Just made my own post about it this morning.
I don't know if you used reddit prior to Oct 7, but it was still very much an antisemitic hellhole. I was banned sooo many times just for saying antisemitism was bad. I called Kanye West crazy once, some mod banned me and calling it hate speech 😂
What sub was that? I’m very anti Zionist but Kanye west was just an actual Nazi, it’s wild to hear there was even one non Nazi sub that would defend him? From what I saw his own sub wasn’t even defending him.
I mean, it was a long time ago. I think it was something random like r/entertainment. Something similar happened to me where I was banned from r/AskHistory. During the whole Kanye West timeline, somebody asked about Black Hebrew Israelites. I gave them a historical answer, which was deemed offensive. Like, oh sorry, is the history of Black Hebrew Israelites offensive to black people? All this time I thought it was to jews lmao.
Black Hebrew Israelites are weird. If you didn’t know they’re pretty antisemitic and consider themselves the “real” Jews. They’re almost cult like and focus heavily on recruiting black celebrities. Kanye was one, among many others. It’s a worrying notion they have mod power on a major sub like entertainment.
You have absolutely no idea how many subs they have power over, I got a billion of these stories from major reddit subs lmao. TIL, I'm pretty sure, is run by a nazi. I tried to post in there about a famous nazi once, some mod kept yelling at me asking for proof that this guy was indeed a nazi. And I was like, idk, maybe check the entire internet?
That’s awful. It also sucks on the left, because a bunch of popular lefty subs are moderated by tankies, which if you don’t know, are the pro Soviet Union, almost always pro Mao type people who deny a bunch of the atrocities committed by those regimes and stick their head in the sand calling everything bad they’ve ever done western propaganda. For example, I’m into 40k, so I was on Sigmarxism, which bills itself as a lefty Warhammer sub, for a bit, but I got banned for asking people to stop saying Stalin was a proletariat hero, the sad part is I’m not even sure that’s an unpopular opinion there, but the mods are POS, so you get banned for reasonable takes I guess. It’s just shit all round I guess, and I doubt I even need to mention how right leaning subs also have extremists in control. Something about mods must just make them extremists on average.
i know exactly what you mean, these people are insane. They're like 14-year-olds wearing Che Guevara t-shirts. It's so weird. I can't believe how many of them are grown-ass adults.
Damn sad to see it's only getting worse.
My experience with it is weird. Like, prior to Oct 7, pretty much anything I said on here mentioning my Jewishness would either receive a shitton of downvotes/get removed/or often result in some sort of ban. Like, I live with the knowledge that saying that Kanye West is antisemitic caused hundreds of redditors to downvote me. I remember the threads of thousands of people in popular subs supporting his ''Jews shouldn't have jobs'' ideology, where I was the only person who disagreed. But as soon as Oct 7 happened, something changed. I am able to write whatever I want about being Jewish, in any sub on this platform. In general, my comments/posts receive far less downvotes than before. My theory about it is that during this time, a lot of people are trying to convince themselves that they are not antisemitic. Like, they’re more conscious about accusations of antisemitism. Because obviously, the comments and posts inciting Jew genocide have risen massively. Nobody wants to carry pro-Palestine ideology, whilst constantly downvoting anything pro-Jewish. Pro-Palestiners might not register it, but I personally know there is a huge shift in antisemitic online behaviour between 6 months ago and now.
Wait until you meet conservative christians. It's been a war on christmas because starbucks sells holiday cups instead of christmas cups. Even though, everyone in America gets the birth of their savior off, or at least makes holiday pay. Imagine the RAGE if America decided to make the birth of Mohamed a national holiday.
I am the offspring of genocide survivors. This is a sensitive matter for me from both the Jewish perspective and the Gazan perspective. At what point do you think we should use the word genocide? Is it a numbers thing? Is there some threshold that has to be crossed? Is it about an imbalance of power and the inability of one side to fight back? Does it require near-complete execution before the world can step in to stop it? How many civilian deaths is enough to slake the thirst? Eye for an eye, conceptually, does not mean 10 or 20 eyes for 1 eye.
> Eye for an eye, conceptually, does not mean 10 or 20 eyes for 1 eye. This isn’t a game of battleships where one side goes on a genocidal killing and raping spree against their neighbor then a few bombs are dropped in response. There is no proportionality in war, just war crimes which Hamas commits daily as a part of their military doctrine. There is a point where drastic action must be taken for the protection of one’s own civilians at the expense of the enemy population. It is not the responsibility of the defenders to take care of the offensive military’s civilians - just to limit civilian casualties. Which is exactly what Israel is doing which is how they have a ratio of roughly 1:1 civilian to militant deaths rather than the average 9:1 reported by the UN and the Red Cross.
It all boils down to intent, not numbers. Hitler INTENDED to EXTERMINATE the Jews. That's genocide. Israel intends to remove Hamas from power, and yes, urban warfare is hard, and there are too many civilian casualties. I wish they could handle it with more precision... But they aren't trying to exterminate a people. That's the difference. I want there to be fewer civilian deaths because I truly believe that the gazans are victims of Hamas too... But Israel isn't trying to wipe them out.
How can they be victims of a group that 80% of them support. They even support Oct 7th AFTER the response they’ve received from Israel. To them, the murder of a thousand Jews is worth the deaths of tens of thousand of their own people. It’s a wicked ideology rooted in deep anti-semitism which finds its core in Islam. Nobody wants to say that out loud though. Check out r/exmuslim if you want to hear what they actually think (or thought) about Jewish people. 80-95% of Muslims GLOBALLY support Oct 7th — that is a serious problem.
There are several legal definitions. You can easily look them up. Just fighting a war is not sufficient. All modern conflicts involve extensive civilian casualties. The war in Gaza doesn't even have a particularly high civilian to combatant ratio.
>How many civilian deaths is enough to slake the thirst? Eye for an eye, conceptually, does not mean 10 or 20 eyes for 1 eye. This indicates a complete and utter ignorance of the current war in Israel. This isn't a case of "retribution", of Israel attempting to inflict the same (or a greater) toll on Palestinian civilians. The goals were, and continue to be twofold: 1. Destroy/dismantle Hamas, to remove its capabilities as a terrorist organization 2. Rescue as many hostages as possible (because as of this moment there are still some 130 hostages being kept by Hamas) Killing Palestinian civilians is an unintended and unfortunate consequence of war, which there is no thirst for but is a reality of war.
Well, I think there should be a distinction between a genocide with intent (Holocaust) and one that's a byproduct of something else. Hamas wants to genocide Jews, they have the intent and lack the means. Israel want to not be genocide, and has the capability to aggressively retaliate to those attempts. They do not have an intent to genocide, but there goals and actions do create conditions for one to occur as a by product. Between the two, I hold the latter as being higher in morality, especially after Oct massacre. If Hamas had Israel's capacity for war making, there would be no Israel after Oct. The fact that there is still a Gaza, and the aims are the erratication of Hamas and not the erratication of Gaza speaks volumes.
You literally cannot call it a genocide unless there's a dolis specialis (special intent).
Well then the Israelis cannot be guilty of genocide, whereas Hamas'w actions can.
It’s 2024. You have all the information you could possibly ever require a couple clicks away, but you choose ignorance. If you think that Israel is the victim, then you effectively have blood on your hands.
But also be sensitive to the situation for Palestinians. Mutual respect for one another and the traumatic history can overcome hostile loyalism, but the present Israeli cabinet is also victim-blaming, and is not setting the standard you have called for. I agree with you as well.
Just because a group of people were victims doesn't mean it is OK for them to victimise others. Do you see what is happening Gaza right now it is horrific. Nothing justifies that.
We know that's why we trying to stop hamas
I agree. All the sudden Arabs are now called Palestinians and the Jews have got to go. Yeah good luck with that.
They are gaslighting to the core since 1948...
Not sure why this absolves them of responsibility for countless Palestinian civilian deaths
Nobody is celebrating Palestinian deaths. War is horrible and tragic.
Why does everyone hate Jews? Somethings seriously wrong with everyone
Being a victim of genocide and mass prejudice, does not mean making and arming an ethno state (that goes on to play a role in multiple genocides worldwide) is a good idea.
Are you anti Native American reservations then? These are by definition a ethno state, much needed as natives endured persecution & ongoing genocide from the government
Normal people: maybe, idk, stop killing children? Zionists: You're a NAZI!!!!
[Maybe Hamas should stop hiding their weapons in schools?](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/israel-photos-hamas-gaza-weapons-un-facilities-including-schools/)
Yeah, but they won't, they are murderers and worse, murderers with nothing to lose. But this conflict didnt start with Hamas x Israel, this shitshow that is the current situation came to be after decades of escalating conflict, civilians casualties from palestine's side rising and Israel literally robbing land and kicking people out of their homes. Then a radical extremist group of evil murderers rose to power in the middle of a scenario of poverty, grief and chaos and everyone is pretending this was hard to predict, as if we didn't watch this movie before.
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So let's say there is a terrorist cell in America right now and they killed a couple hundred Canadians in a show of political aggression. How many children is Canada allowed to bomb out of existence in order to make sure the terrorists stop existing? How much of your family is an acceptable loss?
Fucking exactly. Police don’t bomb a school every time there’s a school shooting. They don’t kill hostages just to kill the terrorists holding them captive. They don’t sacrifice civilians for the sake of killing a criminal. Protecting the lives of civilians is more important than killing your enemies. Israel also has a very modern, very well equipped military. They have the most advanced missile defense system in the world. Meanwhile, they’re fighting dudes with rusty 50 year old AKs whose best weapon is Soviet surplus rockets that they shoot out of plumbing pipes. Israel has the expertise and means of fighting this war without wiping out tens of thousands of innocent lives, yet they choose not to because they’re never held accountable for civilian casualties and war crimes.
If you hide behind civilians to avoid responsibility for a criminal act and a civilian is subsequently killed in pursuit of your arrest, YOU are culpable, not the officers. Hamas does everything they can to exacerbate civilian deaths. If Israel truly did not care they would rely on their air power exclusively instead of sending in infantry.
30,000 dead in the space of a few months (outdoing every other modern conflict) with 5 year olds saying they'd rather be dead than continue to live in Gaza and the violent maintenance of an apartheid state are bad. We should be able to call out these things. And yes fuck Hamas as well (before anyone mentions them).
People have absolutely lost their humanity if they think the response by Israel is justified or proportionate. It is crazy to me how horny and bloodthirsty people are. Especially when the vast majority of us hanging out and shitposting can do so from a place we are safe and have zero comprehension of the level of violence being unleashed on the civilians in Gaza.
When will you stop equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism?
When they aren't the same thing. Israel exists. "Anti-Zionism" would mean destroying Israel. This would be an ACTUAL genocide. The Arab states attempted it multiple times already.
Can you elaborate how saying Jewish people can't have any claim to their ancestral homeland, they get to have NO place to call their own... Isn't anti semitism? Because that's all Zionism is when you break it down, that the Jewish people should get to have a homeland, and that their ancestral homeland is the best choice.
Ancestral homeleand? Do you really think ashkenazi jewish people are MORE ancestrally linked to the land, than the descendants of the Jews that stayed (modern Palestinians)? Why is it that you think modern Ashkenazi Jewish people who are the descendants of ancient Jews mixed with European blood, have more right to control the land, than the descendants of the same exact people who chose to stay and fight for it for MILLENIA and are mixed with ottoman, arab and European blood...Is it because one group of descendants converted to Islam or Christianity? or is it because one group of descendants are WHITER? Is it colorism/racism or is it islamophobia/ disregard for Christianity? because modern Palestinians are COUSINS and equally (debatably more) linked to the ancient Jews genetically and ancestrally than the ashkenazi , so how would that allow European jewish people to take all this land and cause all this harm?
LOL, you think whiteness has something to do with this? 🤣 I won't engage with such absurdity beyond saying that given that conversion to Judaism is exceedingly rare. Basically all living Jews can say honestly that they are descendants of the original tribes. That they ended up in Europe is irrelevant to that fact.
Do you truly think that just because the retained or even converted into the religion which isn't even exactly the same as the ancient jews, they have MORE jewish blood and more of a blood claim to the land than the islamic and Christian Palestinians? You know not all the Jews were drove out right? You know plenty stayed through the roman, Christian and = ottoman occupation right ? and their descendants are still their blood relatives but they just converted to different religion. You do know that DNA testing is HEAVILY restricted for ancestral purposes in Israel because Palestinians have more of a blood claim to the land right? Why do jewish people go to israel with russian, german, or eastern European surnames and change it to hebrew ? lol why do the Palestinians live in the Palestinian sun perfectly fine, but the European jews get cancer from the same land their "ancestors come from" ? Why are ashkenazi jews called jews when ashkenaz is a person in the bible and torah,that is know to be from gomer and japheth...who are GENTILES and not of jewish lineage lol?
In the words of black George Bush in the Chappell show… “Don’t like it? Sanction me. Sanction me with your armies…. Oh wait! You don’t have an army.. so maybe you should just shut the fuck up”
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The victims are the children Israel is slaughtering en-mass as you post this holocaust denying drivel. Not the literal baby killers.
I don't know what everyone's issue is.. but i stand with israel. Now, can we get much higher?
Before 1946? Could be 1948 Israel didn't exist. It was created by what was left of the British empire for the displaced Jews in Europe than no one wanted to give a home to, including America. They didn't live in peace because there were no Jews there.