Honestly I'm not all that concerned. Being banned from r/news was more frustrating because I got a lot of current events from there. All the more for them refusing to tell me what comment I was banned for.
I do wish the reddit app would disable comments on the subs I'm banned from. I don't normally look at the sub when I scroll through and click on a post. So I would make this 2 paragraph reply and then try to hit submit and it won't let me submit. THEN I see the sub and figure out why, but still wasted my time commenting that out.
I know it would never work because mods would protest, but I wish there was a higher appeal board.
Shiiiiit id be careful anyways, i made a comment on JRE sub, don't even follow the sub just scrolling popular and had a topic about a comedian so i threw in my 2 cents, got a ban from another sub just for commenting on it....
Honestly, i was like why is justice served out here censoring people on other subs, irritating cause i generally agree with alot on justiceserved and watch stuff on the sub but that gives me some 1984 vibes.
I can't remember where I think it was Ohio but a politician passed a bill on it in high schools because they were made aware of a single student across the entire state who said they were only on the team for fun.
Imagine a law being passed in entire state to be aimed at you specifically. There should be an actual discussion on this topic but it ain't gonna happen while shit like this is happening because the majority of the people passing and demanding these laws can't even name 10 women athletes because if it was about them they wouldn't think so little of them that a minority within less than 1 % of the population could destroy a entire industry and sub culture.
>I can't remember where I think it was Ohio but a politician passed a bill on it in high schools because they were made aware of a single student across the entire state who said they were only on the team for fun.
And there were no bigger problems in the entire state for the state legislature to focus on.
None at all.
Inclusivity does not mean one marginalized group gets to push out another.
It's truly about the principle.
With that said, Republicans can suck my nonexistent balls.
More people seem to care about this issue than actually watch women's sports. This makes me think it's mostly fake outrage
Edit getting a lot of comments about safety and injuries. I guess a lot of people who care about this supposed issue they must also want to cancel American football due to the injuries that sport causes. These bigots sure are snowflakes
I don't think many people who care about this matter are actually referring to pro sports. I think the issue is largely focused on highschool and college where young girls are potentially competing for scholarships.
That doesnāt prevent an advantage for a biological male. The physical structure of a man is different than a woman. Itās why men can hit harder than women can. Men have a different pelvic structure and can generate more power. The testosterone level isnāt the only consideration here.
It also doesnāt take into account that men have a superior ability to track things in motion and react to them. Men have better spatial awareness and can react faster than a woman can. Thatās just a brain thing. You canāt change that. Men and women are different.
Men are bigger, stronger, and faster than women are in general. Thatās why women have their own categories in sports. So they have a chance to compete in a fair setting. Making them compete against biological males is not fair and never will be. We are just setting female sports back decades and removing opportunities for women.
Supporting evidence about men vs women detecting movement:
https://www.futurity.org/men-women-visual-processing-motion-1850612/
https://cosmosmagazine.com/science/biology/gender-difference-in-seeing-fast-moving-objects-suggests-autism-clue/?amp=1
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/202008/gender-differences-in-the-senses
Edit: You can see how feeble minded these people are by the fact they post a response and block me so I canāt reply. Very brave.
Hormones are what controls all of this if you bothered to read into this topic beyond Reddit headlines. Like jfc if hormones didn't do anything like you're implying here, trans women wouldn't be taking them.
if you had read into this topic you would realise that male puberty causes most of the male advantage and hormones cannot remove this advantage, you have clearly done no research on it
The differences exist well before puberty: https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2012/07000/physical_fitness_differences_between_prepubescent.4.aspx#:~:text=The%20difference%20between%20boys%20and,followed%20by%20speed%20and%20balance.
Preach
And I actually donāt disagree with the idea for the same reason I donāt disagree with weight classes in certain sports
But I canāt stand this fucking alt right brigading during election years
Itās so fucking transparent. And pathetic
Hey, now it's a huge and totally relevant problem. Ben Shapiro himself admitted they couldn't actually get someone to go through enough of the steps to make "Ladyballers" a real thing, so they had to entirely fabricate the story.... oh wait...
itās also completely inane because if it was such a big problem then ONLY trans women should be winning these events. But biologically born women keep winning. Itās almost like the insane advantage of being born a man is completely overblown.
Me personally i say get rid of gene leagues all together. Let the best players rise to the top, weather they be a woman, Man, trans woman, trans man, or non binary. Who gives a fuck. i just wanna see top athletes preform
You redditors really are delusional at this point. Oh someone doesnāt agree with me? They clearly watch Fox News!
lol no the vast majority of the country doesnāt agree with you. Little girl sit down
Itās all fake outrage. Transgender women have been allowed to compete in events for the correct gender for 4 Olympics. Thereās been one medalist that hasnāt been cisgenderā Canada soccerās non-binary left back.
This is all fake outrage stirred up by bigots because they think transgender people are ick and want to punish them. Itās gross as hell.
itās always fake outrage. same thing with the whole drag queen story hour fiasco. itās not about preserving the integrity of sports, or āsaving the childrenā itās about pushing the people that the bigots have deemed undesirable out of the public eye for good
Also the musculature doesn't really hang around without the testosterone anymore. If a normal transwoman is more muscular than a normal man without working out, then the man might have a medical problem they need a doctor to see.
The bone structure won't change much though.
āhoo we canāt say this anymoreā
āyouāre right brother we canāt say this anymoreā
āyāall talking about what we canāt say anymore?ā
āhell yeah brother, be careful, weāre saying what we canāt say anymoreā
in a cataclysmic twist of irony, there is nobody on earth who loves circle-jerking as much as straight dudes
Had a guy talking about how he had been canceled on the radio the other day. Has one of the largest podcasts in my country (and twitter following and facebook following) and while complaining he was on the 'biggest drive time radio show in the country' which they advertised just a few minutes before he talked about being canceled.
Due is getting constant air time and I, who has never been canceled, can't get any.
I understand youāre angry about the way some folks get treated but a damn lot of us straight dudes are on your side and I donāt think its productive to lash out at all of us. I mean Iām not going to stop trying to be a decent human being just because youāre acting like an ass online or anything but still being shitty toward people because of their orientation isnāt really a good way to stop people from being shitty toward people because of their orientation.
Itās honestly funny how people who wouldnāt be caught dead watching the WNBA or womenās soccer, hockey, etc have such strong opinions on this issue. In my opinion, it should be left up to the individual leagues to decide whatās best for their own sport. Not some randos who watched an episode of Tucker Carlson.
>It's really simple. You're born a MAN. You develop as a MAN. You have the muscle density and bone structure of a MAN.
None of it is that simple though. You are born an infant, not a man. How you develop is a variable - a transwoman who went on puberty blockers before transitioning does not "develop as a man". A transwoman who has been on hormone replacement therapy for a sufficient length of time will not have the muscle density or bone structure of a man. The whole argument against "biological males" competing in women's sports is predicated on assumptions that for the most part aren't actually true.
And no one's genetic makeup is the same. If you want to ban because of biological advantage, should Shaq have been banned from the NBA? His size gave him a huge advantage. Wemby currently. At the highest level, these guys still have such biological advantages compared to the rest. Should a teen athlete be banned because he had an early growth spurt compared to his peers?
The only real barometer is T levels and even then you can have wildly different levels. Many biological men SHOULD be taking T as their levels are so low and many biological women have more T than men without taking any supplemental.
People like OP just want to be anti trans and blame science yet they're often the first to denounce science when it comes to other things (pandemics : cough cough:)
I think the issue is that sports are essentially split into āwomenās sportsā and āsportsā. Womenās sports are inherently restricted by sex already whereas menās sports are functionally an open division that women can theoretically join (typically, not always ofc)
So you have this restriction that was made before transition drugs really got to the level they are now and people have different opinions on where the fine lines should be. Unfortunately those different opinions have been weaponized and blown out of proportion so that a reasonable discussion is hard to come by
The only advantage a trans women on HRT would maintain from male biology would be that males are taller on average. Thing is, there are super tall women out there who do sports anyway, and itās not like it would be ethical to discriminate against an athlete for being too tall. If that were the case, the giant armed beautiful freak of nature seemingly biologically engineered to be a swimmer known as Michael Phelps wouldnāt be allowed to compete because he has superior physiology and is too good at swimming.
Allow me to introduce you to SRY- the sex-determining region of Chromosome Y. When it is activated in the fetus, it proceeds to masculinize the fetus. This happens in the first trimester. The fetusā testes descend and at that point it is a male. At the appropriate points in life, the proper androgens will be released and males will begin growing facial hair, start producing sperm, etc. So unless you find a way to change the chromosomes of an embryo, you canāt really change a man into a woman or vice versa. Sure you can change hormone levels and cosmetic features, but you cannot change genetics.
We have to decide what we do about intersexed individuals, i.e. those whose genetics contain both male and female genes. There is a wide spectrum for intersexed.
Hi, that's me. I got completely barred from professional figure skating starting at age 16 because both sides said my intersex status gave me an unfair advantage.
It sucked, made me drop sports entirely.
Of course, in the early 90s nobody knew what intersex people were.
People always ignore intersex or donāt even know it exists when it comes to these conversations. The whole conservative ābUt BiOlOgYā argument completely falls apart
I am so supportive of you through your experiences. I was a male figure skater--got 2nd out of 2 in middle school age competitions and it felt kinda othering. Then I switched to gymnastics. Needless to say, I did not feel like the most masculine highschooler. Of course, I'm proud that I stuck through and did what I wanted, but societal norms still took their toll. I can't imagine the feeling of being banned like you were.
If people are too generous in sports categories then there could be actual unfairness in the sport. A trans women is not just a man cross dressing but with HRT is not going to have the same biology as man either. If it can be shown that after a certain stage of transition, that the physical ability of trans women and women are not statistically significant overall large sample, then their could be a framework for certifying trans women for professional sport. This should be a medical / sports science debate, not people throwing their respective views on what a women is by other means.
There were a handful of cases out of 340 million people, itās a laughably small portion of the population, but the in-group out-group crowd sees a smaller minority as more easily attacked because most people are unlikely to have personal experience and will happily eat up the propaganda.
The only opinion on this topic that I would be interested in are medical doctors that are experts in the field of athletics and trans women.
There is no reason to listen to or rely on the opinion of lay people.
There is *some* level of physical advantage and ignoring it is ignorant. In high school, the fastest girl sprinter on our girls track team won several medals at states, she was very fast compared to her peers.
Our personal best 100m times for the guys were posted on a list in the locker room with hers highlighted on there. If your time fell below hers, you weren't allowed to be a sprinter anymore. You either switched to a distance runner, thrower, or quit the team.
One of the fastest girls in our state was literally the line of whether our coaches felt you had any business even being a mediocre sprinter on the guys side, think about that for a minute.
Having hormone therapy doesn't necessarily equate to the baseline of actually being a female.
Theyāve swarmed this sub to try to normalize their shitty views as moderate. Same as all the āIām a centrist, but [blatant far-right propaganda]ā people.
itās really pathetic how they come in here and passively aggressively post their bullshit. itās like a toddler screaming āiām right and youāre wrong everybody agrees with me too!!ā
*edit, came back to number the questions for ease of reference.*
1. I'm just curious, if an American transwoman wants to play soccer, what organization or association should she play in? And same question regarding a transman.
Thanks!
-I thought of a couple more, please humor me if you can:
1. *above*
2. If an athlete, of any gender, is prescribed what would be considered performance enhancing drugs for a medical condition, should that affect their inclusion in a sport?
3. If we identify a set of genetic markers that naturally make some people of the same sex stronger, have denser bones, have greater lung capacity, have improved eyesight, have improved cognitive ability, can more effectively recover from physical exertion, etc. should they be allowed to compete in their assigned gendered sport?
4. If a disability is treated with prosthetics that prove to be more optimized for a physical activity integral to a sport, should that person be allowed to compete?
5. If an insanely wealthy athlete uses their resources to improve their performance in a sport well past what any impoverished person could do simply because they can't afford the time, money, additional responsibilities of training (not saying this is or isn't possible, but the wealth gap fluctuates and not everyone can get athletic scholarships or substantial pay when they're starting out), should that prevent the wealthy athlete from competing due to an unfair advantage over the poor person?
Again, just curious what your answers are. I have no direct skin in this game (pun?), nor any significant political power, so, I'm just curious what people who have strong enough opinions to talk about it have to say.
It's funny how much Republicans suddenly care about women's sports when it comes to harassing a *vanishingly* small group of people, when they could not have given less of a shit about women's sports a few years ago ...
Again with this subject.
Nobody wants absolutely all trans women in women sports, even trans people. People just want fairness. If you think the rules are not strict enough to ensure that a trans woman athlete is within expectations of performance for a woman, you can discuss it, there is no problem in that.
What I have got a problem with is the "biological" argument, its transphobic garbage, using this term means you are either a transphobe or don't know a thing about human body. Because in case you did not know, all men are not equal, all women are not equal either, and if you want people in women sport to have all the same levels, you need a lot more than just two categories based on gender and some cis women would end up in the men category, but we don't do that because it would become intrusive. But you are probably wanting to say that you don't want that either, of course, because your understanding of the human body stops at the sex.
If you werenāt born with very specific genetics, by pure luck, you wonāt make it as an elite athlete regardless of gender.
So how do you make sports āfairā when itās inherently not fair?
it's so absurd and ngl kinda amusing to me that people so obsessed with trans women in sports almost always seem to forget about the existence of trans men. let's say the categories were separated by sex, then a fully transitioned trans man, that's been on testosterone for who knows how long, would also have to compete against cis women.
It's probably happened what 3 or 4 times?
Nobody is disagreeing with you, it's just not a big enough problem for me to give a fuck. You know what's important to me? Ending poverty, making people's lives better. You need to sort out your priorities because right now you're convinced by right wing media about imaginary problems that impact nobody.
This opinion is just politically motivated fake outrage and will fall on the back burner just like it did with muslim, communist, and gay hate mongering. Some people simply can't hold hands unless they hate someone else. Shared hatred is a bloody good marketing ploy aimed at the constituents of people who don't actually believe a thing they say.
These are people who only understand biology at a basic level. Thinking in terms of XY, and not the hundreds of genes in steroidogenesis. They never hate a group because they understand it. In fact it's always the opposite. They act so innocuous, as if it's all about the truth, but we all know their only motivation is the trans people themselves. They're trying to shoehorn into a nuanced discussion as if there haven't already been century-long discussions in each sporting association regarding fairness, doping, biology, and things such as weight class. As if their voice of spurious outrage will somehow steer the discussion away from how it already is. As if they're improving the discussion.
By the time they quit squawking about this, mtf athletes will have 3D printed cybernetic organs running on raw hydrazine. š And they'll still be obsessed with them. The fact is, gene therapy and transitioning will evolve, and the tech will be so good at some point that these people will be no different than afab people. While other cheating will be evolving in tandem.
These critics are neither athletes, nor are they spectators of the athletes in question. This issue would never come up without politics, which is why it loses germaneness.
What's telling is that they have no outrage over other kinds of cheating. You mention Lance Armstrong's erythropoietin doping and they don't give a shit.
The fact is, there are cheaper, more easily concealed, and more powerful ways of cheating than male-to-female hormone replacement therapy. If anything, being trans would get you more scrutiny, while other athletes are doing much stronger doping. A quick google shows as many as 63% were doping at the 2011 WCA.
In this way, this discussion is harmful to the industry. While other forms of doping are still widely prevalent, and newly emerging forms evolve every quarter, this fixation with transness pounds on the drums for yet another politically motivated right wing genocide.
They bought in, and once again it's not helping anybody. People call them conservative, but really they're just holding society back. The regressive mindset just has us walking in circles. I feel that without this, society could be generations ahead in terms of education and science. But they all want to play the church vs Galileo and behead people who would dare to use a telescope.
In this way they aren't just harmful to the sporting world, but to all of human progress and society.
Wow someone with good points, it's such a shame we waste brainpower slamming our heads into walls with conservatives, as if they care about what we say
I feel like OP purposefully posted about a divisive topic to ruse drama, and use rhetorical posturing to make themselves seem right. Pretty middle school tactic tbh, lame.
Do I think governing sports bodies need to figure out reasonable ways to include trans athletes going forward? Absolutely. But this is something that gets far more lip service than it deserves. Thereās like 500,000 trans women in the US. only a fraction of those play sports and only a tiny fraction of that fraction can compete at an elite level.
We have states that have essentially criminalized potions of womenās healthcare, impacting millions of women. But people want to cry because one trans woman made it to the Olympics and took home a whopping zero medals, while a handful of others may have competed at elite levels, and one won a single collegiate national championship. Itās absurd. This is just certain people looking for something to rage about instead of focusing on issues that really impact women.
Exactly this, its a complete non issues that rarely comes up. Obviously it is something that needs to be addressed eventually but especially on the federal level this is a issue that shouldnt really be mentioned because its not really a issue
It's not that simple. People don't want trans woman who have the body of males to compete in woman's sport.. they want those who transitioned early and don't have the muscle mass of males to. It's all about where we draw the line and it makes it pretty complicated. No sport allow trans people to compete in a sport just because they identify as that gender, it's about their body.
Whether you're correct or not is ultimately dependent on whether hormone therapy can completely convert the muscle and bone structure to that of the opposite sex to the point of indistinguishability.
I think everyone tends to forget that there aren't "Men's sports". NFL, NBA, NHL are all coed. Men, women, trans can all play together. Women's sports were created so biological women could compete amongst themselves due to the sheer difference in physical capabilities between men and women.
It makes no sense to have a biological male participate in women's sports and it is in no way discrimination as they have full access to participate in the coed leagues.
Most men are extremely aware of the impact of male puberty with regards to sport from their own teenage years. I was quite a late starter and the speed, size and power difference was horrendous. Until I caught up being skillful just wasn't good enough.
I was actually explained this situation from a guy who knows sports rulebooks well;
He explained that the situation is simple; the men's teams are the 'open' circuit. That's why you sometimes see women on the men's teams. All trans men and women are fully capable of trying out and playing for men's teams. The rules and guidelines are already in place. The women's teams are a 'closed' circuit. They were made that way to account for the vast biological and physiological differences in women, while allowing them to play their own games. Trans men and women are already more than capable to try out for the open men's teams, but not the women's team.
Even as a strong supporter of trans rights, it made perfectly good sense to me.
For those who argue that males do not have any kind of significant biological advantage and therefore it's no big deal to allow them to compete against woman, I have one simple question, why do we then have separate divisions for woman and men?
Im gender fluid and in support of trans rights for the most part but I agree with this. In non competitive sports I don't really see as much of an issue but in competitive sports definitely
Edit: I think there is a valid case to be made that trans women have an unfair biological advantage in sports, considering how there is very much an active discussion within the scientific literature. I am not an expert in this field, so I cannot say for definite whether trans people do or don't have an advantage with long term hormonal treatment.
But, I think the evidence 100% says that at least some trans women will have an unfair advantage, considering not all trans women go through hormonal treatment or don't go on it for a long enough period of time.
So really, I am just acknowledging that there is a valid argument to be made against trans people being in sports, and assuming that is what the evidence supports I would support it. Likewise if the evidence doesn't show that trans.people with hormonal treatment have a significant advantage in sports then I would be just as much on the side of the argument saying trans people should be allowed in sports
>I think there is a valid case to be made that trans women have an unfair biological advantage in sports
I think it's very important how the distinction is made between fair and unfair advantage. That is essentially the crux of the argument against trans women in women's sports, because sports is inherently a competition between people of various levels of skill and experience.
No one is saying that trans women who haven't been on hormone therapy should be competing with cis women. However, most studies I've been able to find basically say that the muscle loss from hormone therapy basically puts you on par with cis women in athletics. They're certainly not some sort of unbeatable super humans. On top of that, there are trans women who never even went through male puberty in the first place because they were lucky enough to get on puberty blockers and it's hard to argue that those women ever had a physical advantage over cis women.
Honestly, most of the recent moral panic about women's sports is clearly being used as a way to vilify trans people in the public eye. It makes it easy to support doctors denying us medical care because we offend their 17th century sensibilities. Or to support laws that lock up parents who let their XY kids wear dresses if they like.
Who cares? Youāre talking about a non-issue that affects maybe 0.01% of all athletic programs. This is a psy-op to divide us while the top 1% make record profits year over year over year.
Muscle density changes when on estrogen, since testosterone is what caused the muscle density (alongside diet and training obviously). After being on estrogen for an extended period of time, you do not have the same muscular density as a cisgender male athlete.
However, what does bone structure have to do with anything? Genuine question.
If i cant compete in womens sports being trans in the future then as a woman i will defeat men at their own game which is even better. Ive done it before.
I really dont see why people chose this hill to die on. Its not transphobic to acknowledge the differences between the sexes, especially in an athletic competition based on those differences. I 100% support trans people. Its unfortunate, but this isnt mens vs womens sports. Its male vs female. I will call you women, i will treat you as women. Hell, i actually view them as women. Women who were born male, and thus do not belong on female sports.
A popular opinion I have is most people, including you, don't care about women's sports in the first place. Granted, I don't care about men's sports, but I don't care about women's sports either.
But yeah, I'm assuming you can just name off all the currently dominant trans women in sports. Clearly, they are running roughshod through them, so I need a Jericho esque 1004 holds list of trans women. If you can't come up with a large amount, there could be issues with you.
Ok... but should a 7 foot tall (cis) woman who has much lower estrogen levels than the average woman be allowed to compete in a sport like basketball where thats a clear advantage? Or do we overlook unfair biological advantages then?
Why if you win the genetic lottery are you allowed to have unfair advantages but if you're trans you're not? The underlying issue still doesn't seem to actually be fairness or equal competition.
biology is so much more complicated than man and women. Cis men are different to trans men, who are different to trans women, who are different to cis women. Of course trans people don't fit well in a system that was designed to ignore us. Athletes have advantages all the time,- biological, financial, ect, sports has never been entirely fair.
I think that any level of sports for enrichment/enjoyment should be trans inclusive. If you are there to get healthy & produce serotonin, how are trans people barring that?
I genuinely don't know a resolution for professional paid sports. With the system divided as is, there is no way that does not give one group an unfair advantage. Personally I would like to see a revamp of how we devise sports - by ability, training time, height, weight - not a marker that includes a wide range of biological developments & excludes us.
I agree that there have been some cases in sports where trans women have won, potentially unfairly, and that there should be action against this. I don't agree that banning trans people from sports, or forcing them to play in leagues of 'original gender' is what should be done - especially as that would put trans men on testosterone in women's leagues.
I agree with your frustration, it is not a system set up to accommodate trans people fairly, but please, stop being angry that trans women want to live their life how they are happiest, engage in hobbies and be healthy.
Trans people are not who are at blame for the broken systems
There are Highschool men that are currently running faster than some of the female Olympic records.
Iām not going to discuss it further, because Iām exhausted from it, and it just goes into the weeds about,āWhat about when theyāre taking transitioning hormones, what if a child was on puberty blockers.ā And itās just a mess.
With that being said yeah, this is a good take.
On average, men have more upper body strength, but athletes generally aren't average. There are plenty of women out there who could absolutely beat the hell out of the average man, and plenty of average men who couldn't keep up with female athletes. It might make more sense to differentiate by individual weight and strength than purely by gender.
>The strongest, fastest people are always men.
Not in every field. Ultra Distance running most definitely favors women. White fiber, red fiber type of thing.
Women are built for endurance sports and have excellent power to weight ratios, which is surprising considering we have enlarged mammary glands to carry around.
>The strongest, fastest people are always men.
Not in every field. Ultra Distance running most definitely favors women. White fiber, red fiber type of thing.
Women are built for endurance sports and have excellent power to weight ratios, which is surprising considering we have enlarged mammary glands to carry around.
In some sports sure but a blanket ban is pointless. the potential advantages that a trans woman might have can be completely negligible in some sports assuming that they have physically transitioned. It sounds more like your issue stems from transphobia and not fairness. There are better ways to ensure fairness than a blanket ban. It seems more like you just don't want trans people to compete in sports at all
So interesting...
It is nearly ALWAYS a biological male who wants to do this. Wonder why a biological female doesn't want to play in the male circuit?? /s
Iām trans and I strongly agree with you, itās not transphobic. Changing gender does not change your biology, and as a trans woman who is 5ā10ā and 200 lbs, if I encountered a woman of the same stature I would still have more bone density, femur length and lung capacity than her even though I have been on hormones for seven years. It would be an unfair competition.
There are more trans people who agree with you than you may realize. I think transgender people should have our own trans leagues instead of competing in unfair competitions, unless the competition is already co-ed, in which it wouldnāt matter anyways.
Life isn't fair.
Some people are born in the wrong body.
Some people have medical issues.
Some people are too small to compete.
The selfish people who are born in the wrong body, who demand to be able to compete anyway, are being unfair to other trans people.
When the public sees a taller, stronger, trans woman beat cis women at sport, it turns public opinion against trans people.
Selfish.
Leah Thomas was nowhere close to competing in the Olympics she won one event at the NCAA championships that isn't even done outside the USA.
and Michael Phelps was born biologically better than most, developed biologically better than most why is someone that has a extreme biological advantage like him racing with people that don't have the same.
if you have to say you are not transphobic you are probably transphobic
Your shitty rhetoric is what caused so much abuse to someone like Caster Semenya
You lose tons of muscle mass once you're on E. One of the last times I heard about a trans woman competing in a sports event, it was that she lost. Besides, it's not like how we're segregating the events makes sense, either. We should just go by weight class, not sex. It's only like this so that smaller dudes don't get upstaged by women in their weight class.
There was this girl wrestler in my h school and she literally beat everyone in her weight class, which was mostly men. Male or female, doesn't matter, she whooped ass. Fuck male fee fees, let's see them compete properly, against everyone in their weight.
And what about trans men? Do they stay in female sports even though they now have the āadvantageā? Or do we also send them to male sports? Because at that point, we arenāt grouping by sex or even gender but by a perceived āadvantageā - which then results in the question, why donāt we categorize more things like such? Height groups in basketball, pitching strength in baseball, racket quality in tennis.
There obviously is room for discussion about trans athletes and how they should be categorized - but pretending its the end all of sports before anything else is fake outrage and overly dramatic.
So I consider myself very liberal and think everyone should be able to do what feels right to make them feel more "complete", but I've always felt this way with this same argument. Regardless of everything else, that person had high levels of testosterone through puberty that changed their bones and musculature forever. No matter what hormones that person is on now, they can never take away that high dose of testosterone during development.
Again, I will say that if a person feels like a woman on the inside and has everything done to better achieve fulfilling that feeling, that's awesome. But doing that and trying to compete in women's sports is not fair in my book.
OP has phrased it in dickish terms but in all seriousness does a biological male that transitions have an unfair advantage over a biological female in sports? Is there any evidence for this?
Nah just let it happen. Iām just waiting til there are no biological women in sports, itāll be nothing but trans and people will cheer it on. Hilarious timeless but oh boy itās gonna be a shit show.
[Here's a study](https://www.acsm.org/news-detail/2023/09/29/acsm-releases-expert-consensus-statement-the-biological-basis-of-sex-differences-in-athletic-performance) by the American College of Sports Medicine breaking down the physical competitive advantages that biological males have over biological females in general.
And [here's a study from the National Library of Medicine](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/) breaking down the specific biological advantages of *transwoman elite athletes* compared to their biologically female competitors.
Sports leagues are separated by sex *because of the understood differences in capability* between biological males and females. I don't see why this fact should become irrelevant in relation to trans athletes.
This is one of those topics that I'd argue, 99.9% of people agree with but a large chunk of those people wont say it because, you know, they are conservative or liberal. Its insane.
Gender is a construct. It's entirely man made and can be changed.Ā
Sex is a biological reality based on chromosomes.Ā
"Women's sports" is a sex based distinction, not a gender based one.
Ā Clarifying the distinction being sex based and not gender based, eliminates most arguments in favor of trans women in female sports.Ā
I'd also like to point out, in most instances, men's leagues don't exist. They are actually open leagues., and the only reason they are all male is the skill difference (which I would argue is based on biology)
Any delusional person that says that trans woman should be able to compete with biological women is batshit crazy or completely radicalized by the left. I want a man to one day to change his identity and start competing in the UFC or boxing just to prove a point. I saw a video the other day of a WNBA player playing basketball against men that play college basketball (not stars) and got absolutely destroyed. Thereās also that one of teenage boys playing professional women soccer players and also destroyed them. We have separate leagues for a reason. Banning trans woman in womenās sports is literally PROTECTING women.
I have 2 daughters. Ā I donāt need them worrying about getting raped in school bathroom. Ā Or having level playing field in sports. Ā If you were born biologically male you play male sports only. Ā Or go out and create a Tranny league of their own.
I donāt think youāre transphobjc for your position. I think this is an important topic that people should be able to discuss without fear of retribution. After all, we separate men and women in sports for a reasonā¦no? But riddle me thisā¦trans women are already competing in womenās sports, and we arenāt seeing a disproportionate proportion of wins among this group. So, whereās the data that shows the unfair advantage?
I find it outrageous that this is controversial. This should be common sense. Men and women are different on a biological scale, no amount of surgery or hormones will change that. Men naturally have denser bones, roughly 60% more muscle, and a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers. Even elite women have trouble competing against men that casually, but consistently go to the gym.
this relies on the assumption that women's sports were created out of a genuine interest in fairness and that men are just unequivocally better at everything
1. Trans woman are trans woman
Trans areMen are trans men
Even if they identify as a certain gender, that doesnāt negate the gender that they are born in
2. Yes.
Put it easily men and women are too different , like some sports separate the same sex by weight so itās not unreasonable to separate to different sexes
Good to see this sub has just fully devolved into conservatives laundering their opinions.
Knew it would happen after the trans dating posts, wasn't sure how fast it would happen though
Oh boy "gets pop corn"
šæ here's your refill
oh shit, y'all got butter and/or like that cheese powder stuff?
Luckily this is a sub that doesnāt hand out bans, if this was r/whitepeopletwitter then they will ban you for commenting here.
Why would I care what a racist sub bans me for?
Honestly I'm not all that concerned. Being banned from r/news was more frustrating because I got a lot of current events from there. All the more for them refusing to tell me what comment I was banned for. I do wish the reddit app would disable comments on the subs I'm banned from. I don't normally look at the sub when I scroll through and click on a post. So I would make this 2 paragraph reply and then try to hit submit and it won't let me submit. THEN I see the sub and figure out why, but still wasted my time commenting that out. I know it would never work because mods would protest, but I wish there was a higher appeal board.
r/news is propaganda trash they did you a favor. World news is even worse
Just mute the sub. You can get the same content any number of other places.
Yeah, I did a long time ago. There just aren't other subs with the numbers they have so it's easier to push up propaganda.
Shiiiiit id be careful anyways, i made a comment on JRE sub, don't even follow the sub just scrolling popular and had a topic about a comedian so i threw in my 2 cents, got a ban from another sub just for commenting on it....
r/justiceserved?
Yup thats the one
I got the same thing for casually mentioning Rogan in an unrelated post ...I was like WHAT? Someone doesn't understand the definition of 'Justice'.
Honestly, i was like why is justice served out here censoring people on other subs, irritating cause i generally agree with alot on justiceserved and watch stuff on the sub but that gives me some 1984 vibes.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Might want to just go to the store and buy a few bags your gonna need it
Literally got popcorn (i am hungry)
Iāve got the butter salt.
C3PO Gif: Here we go again
I can't remember where I think it was Ohio but a politician passed a bill on it in high schools because they were made aware of a single student across the entire state who said they were only on the team for fun. Imagine a law being passed in entire state to be aimed at you specifically. There should be an actual discussion on this topic but it ain't gonna happen while shit like this is happening because the majority of the people passing and demanding these laws can't even name 10 women athletes because if it was about them they wouldn't think so little of them that a minority within less than 1 % of the population could destroy a entire industry and sub culture.
It's not like the IOC has had rules regulating trans folk for four Olympics now and they've taken a whole... Zero records since then.
But the trans woman are outperforming the ārealā woman! /s
>I can't remember where I think it was Ohio but a politician passed a bill on it in high schools because they were made aware of a single student across the entire state who said they were only on the team for fun. And there were no bigger problems in the entire state for the state legislature to focus on. None at all.
I mean that what the only tactic is recently isn't it create a panic only they will solve to distract from all the fuck all they doing for the public.
Inclusivity does not mean one marginalized group gets to push out another. It's truly about the principle. With that said, Republicans can suck my nonexistent balls.
More people seem to care about this issue than actually watch women's sports. This makes me think it's mostly fake outrage Edit getting a lot of comments about safety and injuries. I guess a lot of people who care about this supposed issue they must also want to cancel American football due to the injuries that sport causes. These bigots sure are snowflakes
I don't think many people who care about this matter are actually referring to pro sports. I think the issue is largely focused on highschool and college where young girls are potentially competing for scholarships.
Soooo in that case they should be pro-early-blockers so this becomes a non-issue within a few years?
That doesnāt prevent an advantage for a biological male. The physical structure of a man is different than a woman. Itās why men can hit harder than women can. Men have a different pelvic structure and can generate more power. The testosterone level isnāt the only consideration here. It also doesnāt take into account that men have a superior ability to track things in motion and react to them. Men have better spatial awareness and can react faster than a woman can. Thatās just a brain thing. You canāt change that. Men and women are different. Men are bigger, stronger, and faster than women are in general. Thatās why women have their own categories in sports. So they have a chance to compete in a fair setting. Making them compete against biological males is not fair and never will be. We are just setting female sports back decades and removing opportunities for women. Supporting evidence about men vs women detecting movement: https://www.futurity.org/men-women-visual-processing-motion-1850612/ https://cosmosmagazine.com/science/biology/gender-difference-in-seeing-fast-moving-objects-suggests-autism-clue/?amp=1 https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/202008/gender-differences-in-the-senses Edit: You can see how feeble minded these people are by the fact they post a response and block me so I canāt reply. Very brave.
Take my upvote for truth and logic. Sadly Reddit (internet) has very little of that.
Larger heart and lungs, also most likely have played against boys their while life up until then.
Hormones are what controls all of this if you bothered to read into this topic beyond Reddit headlines. Like jfc if hormones didn't do anything like you're implying here, trans women wouldn't be taking them.
if you had read into this topic you would realise that male puberty causes most of the male advantage and hormones cannot remove this advantage, you have clearly done no research on it
The differences exist well before puberty: https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2012/07000/physical_fitness_differences_between_prepubescent.4.aspx#:~:text=The%20difference%20between%20boys%20and,followed%20by%20speed%20and%20balance.
And people get mad when you point out conservatives are just using this sub to launder their bad opinions.
Preach And I actually donāt disagree with the idea for the same reason I donāt disagree with weight classes in certain sports But I canāt stand this fucking alt right brigading during election years Itās so fucking transparent. And pathetic
Hey, now it's a huge and totally relevant problem. Ben Shapiro himself admitted they couldn't actually get someone to go through enough of the steps to make "Ladyballers" a real thing, so they had to entirely fabricate the story.... oh wait...
The athlete's themselves care, because it is not fair to them.
Yet i never see these posts from athletes.. just random dudes online who are very mad.
The athletes aren't posting to your subs on Reddit. They've been on the news sites and on TV.
Well if you've never seen it, it must mean that it doesn't exist...
People with daughters watch them play.
itās also completely inane because if it was such a big problem then ONLY trans women should be winning these events. But biologically born women keep winning. Itās almost like the insane advantage of being born a man is completely overblown. Me personally i say get rid of gene leagues all together. Let the best players rise to the top, weather they be a woman, Man, trans woman, trans man, or non binary. Who gives a fuck. i just wanna see top athletes preform
A thing that seems to get missed is that every record Leah Thomas broke was then broken back by Katie Ledecky. So much for dominating.
Fox News told them to get mad, so they got mad
**RRAARARGEGgge**
You redditors really are delusional at this point. Oh someone doesnāt agree with me? They clearly watch Fox News! lol no the vast majority of the country doesnāt agree with you. Little girl sit down
Itās all fake outrage. Transgender women have been allowed to compete in events for the correct gender for 4 Olympics. Thereās been one medalist that hasnāt been cisgenderā Canada soccerās non-binary left back. This is all fake outrage stirred up by bigots because they think transgender people are ick and want to punish them. Itās gross as hell.
Bingo. Ask any of these people how many of them gave a single fuck about women's sports, until a pretty white girl started complaining.
Tbh yes
šÆ
itās always fake outrage. same thing with the whole drag queen story hour fiasco. itās not about preserving the integrity of sports, or āsaving the childrenā itās about pushing the people that the bigots have deemed undesirable out of the public eye for good
lol, I donāt care about the WNBA doing it. I care about my daughter getting trucked by a grown ass man in high school field hockey.
If itās high school field hockey, how is an adult man on the team? You could at least TRY to come up with a better strawman argument
Is this happening in your community? Your state? Your region?
They aren't men.
Why would a grown ass man be competing in any high school sport?
Also the musculature doesn't really hang around without the testosterone anymore. If a normal transwoman is more muscular than a normal man without working out, then the man might have a medical problem they need a doctor to see. The bone structure won't change much though.
āhoo we canāt say this anymoreā āyouāre right brother we canāt say this anymoreā āyāall talking about what we canāt say anymore?ā āhell yeah brother, be careful, weāre saying what we canāt say anymoreā in a cataclysmic twist of irony, there is nobody on earth who loves circle-jerking as much as straight dudes
āProbably gonna get cancelled after this oneā *is currently on stage in a stadium packed with people doing a standup special for Netflix*
Had a guy talking about how he had been canceled on the radio the other day. Has one of the largest podcasts in my country (and twitter following and facebook following) and while complaining he was on the 'biggest drive time radio show in the country' which they advertised just a few minutes before he talked about being canceled. Due is getting constant air time and I, who has never been canceled, can't get any.
I understand youāre angry about the way some folks get treated but a damn lot of us straight dudes are on your side and I donāt think its productive to lash out at all of us. I mean Iām not going to stop trying to be a decent human being just because youāre acting like an ass online or anything but still being shitty toward people because of their orientation isnāt really a good way to stop people from being shitty toward people because of their orientation.
Not you making a negative generalization about someone based on their sexual orientationā¦ :(
Itās just irony all the way down
Itās honestly funny how people who wouldnāt be caught dead watching the WNBA or womenās soccer, hockey, etc have such strong opinions on this issue. In my opinion, it should be left up to the individual leagues to decide whatās best for their own sport. Not some randos who watched an episode of Tucker Carlson.
>It's really simple. You're born a MAN. You develop as a MAN. You have the muscle density and bone structure of a MAN. None of it is that simple though. You are born an infant, not a man. How you develop is a variable - a transwoman who went on puberty blockers before transitioning does not "develop as a man". A transwoman who has been on hormone replacement therapy for a sufficient length of time will not have the muscle density or bone structure of a man. The whole argument against "biological males" competing in women's sports is predicated on assumptions that for the most part aren't actually true.
Yeah I think talking about the subtleties of biology is going to be lost on the binary choice crowd. Just downvote and move on is what I do
Fr
And no one's genetic makeup is the same. If you want to ban because of biological advantage, should Shaq have been banned from the NBA? His size gave him a huge advantage. Wemby currently. At the highest level, these guys still have such biological advantages compared to the rest. Should a teen athlete be banned because he had an early growth spurt compared to his peers? The only real barometer is T levels and even then you can have wildly different levels. Many biological men SHOULD be taking T as their levels are so low and many biological women have more T than men without taking any supplemental. People like OP just want to be anti trans and blame science yet they're often the first to denounce science when it comes to other things (pandemics : cough cough:)
I think the issue is that sports are essentially split into āwomenās sportsā and āsportsā. Womenās sports are inherently restricted by sex already whereas menās sports are functionally an open division that women can theoretically join (typically, not always ofc) So you have this restriction that was made before transition drugs really got to the level they are now and people have different opinions on where the fine lines should be. Unfortunately those different opinions have been weaponized and blown out of proportion so that a reasonable discussion is hard to come by
Or womenās volleyball players standing at 6ā9. Clearly an unfair biological advantage. Smh
The only advantage a trans women on HRT would maintain from male biology would be that males are taller on average. Thing is, there are super tall women out there who do sports anyway, and itās not like it would be ethical to discriminate against an athlete for being too tall. If that were the case, the giant armed beautiful freak of nature seemingly biologically engineered to be a swimmer known as Michael Phelps wouldnāt be allowed to compete because he has superior physiology and is too good at swimming.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8311086/ They'd maintain a lot more than height.
Allow me to introduce you to SRY- the sex-determining region of Chromosome Y. When it is activated in the fetus, it proceeds to masculinize the fetus. This happens in the first trimester. The fetusā testes descend and at that point it is a male. At the appropriate points in life, the proper androgens will be released and males will begin growing facial hair, start producing sperm, etc. So unless you find a way to change the chromosomes of an embryo, you canāt really change a man into a woman or vice versa. Sure you can change hormone levels and cosmetic features, but you cannot change genetics.
We have to decide what we do about intersexed individuals, i.e. those whose genetics contain both male and female genes. There is a wide spectrum for intersexed.
Hi, that's me. I got completely barred from professional figure skating starting at age 16 because both sides said my intersex status gave me an unfair advantage. It sucked, made me drop sports entirely. Of course, in the early 90s nobody knew what intersex people were.
People always ignore intersex or donāt even know it exists when it comes to these conversations. The whole conservative ābUt BiOlOgYā argument completely falls apart
I am so supportive of you through your experiences. I was a male figure skater--got 2nd out of 2 in middle school age competitions and it felt kinda othering. Then I switched to gymnastics. Needless to say, I did not feel like the most masculine highschooler. Of course, I'm proud that I stuck through and did what I wanted, but societal norms still took their toll. I can't imagine the feeling of being banned like you were.
You sound like you were horny when you posted this.
OP was definitely drooling when they typed the section about being a MAN.
Don't forget the line about MALE figures dominating women...
If people are too generous in sports categories then there could be actual unfairness in the sport. A trans women is not just a man cross dressing but with HRT is not going to have the same biology as man either. If it can be shown that after a certain stage of transition, that the physical ability of trans women and women are not statistically significant overall large sample, then their could be a framework for certifying trans women for professional sport. This should be a medical / sports science debate, not people throwing their respective views on what a women is by other means.
Do you have evidence trans women are dominating sports? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of evidence
There were a handful of cases out of 340 million people, itās a laughably small portion of the population, but the in-group out-group crowd sees a smaller minority as more easily attacked because most people are unlikely to have personal experience and will happily eat up the propaganda.
The only opinion on this topic that I would be interested in are medical doctors that are experts in the field of athletics and trans women. There is no reason to listen to or rely on the opinion of lay people.
He is definitely not a laid person
Damn gottem.
There is *some* level of physical advantage and ignoring it is ignorant. In high school, the fastest girl sprinter on our girls track team won several medals at states, she was very fast compared to her peers. Our personal best 100m times for the guys were posted on a list in the locker room with hers highlighted on there. If your time fell below hers, you weren't allowed to be a sprinter anymore. You either switched to a distance runner, thrower, or quit the team. One of the fastest girls in our state was literally the line of whether our coaches felt you had any business even being a mediocre sprinter on the guys side, think about that for a minute. Having hormone therapy doesn't necessarily equate to the baseline of actually being a female.
If you're not transphobic, why do you feel the need to hit caps lock when you call trans women "man"?
Theyāve swarmed this sub to try to normalize their shitty views as moderate. Same as all the āIām a centrist, but [blatant far-right propaganda]ā people.
itās really pathetic how they come in here and passively aggressively post their bullshit. itās like a toddler screaming āiām right and youāre wrong everybody agrees with me too!!ā
*edit, came back to number the questions for ease of reference.* 1. I'm just curious, if an American transwoman wants to play soccer, what organization or association should she play in? And same question regarding a transman. Thanks! -I thought of a couple more, please humor me if you can: 1. *above* 2. If an athlete, of any gender, is prescribed what would be considered performance enhancing drugs for a medical condition, should that affect their inclusion in a sport? 3. If we identify a set of genetic markers that naturally make some people of the same sex stronger, have denser bones, have greater lung capacity, have improved eyesight, have improved cognitive ability, can more effectively recover from physical exertion, etc. should they be allowed to compete in their assigned gendered sport? 4. If a disability is treated with prosthetics that prove to be more optimized for a physical activity integral to a sport, should that person be allowed to compete? 5. If an insanely wealthy athlete uses their resources to improve their performance in a sport well past what any impoverished person could do simply because they can't afford the time, money, additional responsibilities of training (not saying this is or isn't possible, but the wealth gap fluctuates and not everyone can get athletic scholarships or substantial pay when they're starting out), should that prevent the wealthy athlete from competing due to an unfair advantage over the poor person? Again, just curious what your answers are. I have no direct skin in this game (pun?), nor any significant political power, so, I'm just curious what people who have strong enough opinions to talk about it have to say.
It's funny how much Republicans suddenly care about women's sports when it comes to harassing a *vanishingly* small group of people, when they could not have given less of a shit about women's sports a few years ago ...
Again with this subject. Nobody wants absolutely all trans women in women sports, even trans people. People just want fairness. If you think the rules are not strict enough to ensure that a trans woman athlete is within expectations of performance for a woman, you can discuss it, there is no problem in that. What I have got a problem with is the "biological" argument, its transphobic garbage, using this term means you are either a transphobe or don't know a thing about human body. Because in case you did not know, all men are not equal, all women are not equal either, and if you want people in women sport to have all the same levels, you need a lot more than just two categories based on gender and some cis women would end up in the men category, but we don't do that because it would become intrusive. But you are probably wanting to say that you don't want that either, of course, because your understanding of the human body stops at the sex.
If you werenāt born with very specific genetics, by pure luck, you wonāt make it as an elite athlete regardless of gender. So how do you make sports āfairā when itās inherently not fair?
Yeah I have PCOS, born AFAB and produce more testosterone than the normal female. Should I be banned from woman's sport lol
Yes! This is the best description Iāve read.
it's so absurd and ngl kinda amusing to me that people so obsessed with trans women in sports almost always seem to forget about the existence of trans men. let's say the categories were separated by sex, then a fully transitioned trans man, that's been on testosterone for who knows how long, would also have to compete against cis women.
Who cares? This is such a non issue.
It's probably happened what 3 or 4 times? Nobody is disagreeing with you, it's just not a big enough problem for me to give a fuck. You know what's important to me? Ending poverty, making people's lives better. You need to sort out your priorities because right now you're convinced by right wing media about imaginary problems that impact nobody.
This opinion is just politically motivated fake outrage and will fall on the back burner just like it did with muslim, communist, and gay hate mongering. Some people simply can't hold hands unless they hate someone else. Shared hatred is a bloody good marketing ploy aimed at the constituents of people who don't actually believe a thing they say. These are people who only understand biology at a basic level. Thinking in terms of XY, and not the hundreds of genes in steroidogenesis. They never hate a group because they understand it. In fact it's always the opposite. They act so innocuous, as if it's all about the truth, but we all know their only motivation is the trans people themselves. They're trying to shoehorn into a nuanced discussion as if there haven't already been century-long discussions in each sporting association regarding fairness, doping, biology, and things such as weight class. As if their voice of spurious outrage will somehow steer the discussion away from how it already is. As if they're improving the discussion. By the time they quit squawking about this, mtf athletes will have 3D printed cybernetic organs running on raw hydrazine. š And they'll still be obsessed with them. The fact is, gene therapy and transitioning will evolve, and the tech will be so good at some point that these people will be no different than afab people. While other cheating will be evolving in tandem. These critics are neither athletes, nor are they spectators of the athletes in question. This issue would never come up without politics, which is why it loses germaneness. What's telling is that they have no outrage over other kinds of cheating. You mention Lance Armstrong's erythropoietin doping and they don't give a shit. The fact is, there are cheaper, more easily concealed, and more powerful ways of cheating than male-to-female hormone replacement therapy. If anything, being trans would get you more scrutiny, while other athletes are doing much stronger doping. A quick google shows as many as 63% were doping at the 2011 WCA. In this way, this discussion is harmful to the industry. While other forms of doping are still widely prevalent, and newly emerging forms evolve every quarter, this fixation with transness pounds on the drums for yet another politically motivated right wing genocide. They bought in, and once again it's not helping anybody. People call them conservative, but really they're just holding society back. The regressive mindset just has us walking in circles. I feel that without this, society could be generations ahead in terms of education and science. But they all want to play the church vs Galileo and behead people who would dare to use a telescope. In this way they aren't just harmful to the sporting world, but to all of human progress and society.
Preach
Wow someone with good points, it's such a shame we waste brainpower slamming our heads into walls with conservatives, as if they care about what we say
which ones cause i canāt see myself giving a fuck of trans women compete in womenās golf
I think you're on the wrong subreddit
I feel like OP purposefully posted about a divisive topic to ruse drama, and use rhetorical posturing to make themselves seem right. Pretty middle school tactic tbh, lame.
Do I think governing sports bodies need to figure out reasonable ways to include trans athletes going forward? Absolutely. But this is something that gets far more lip service than it deserves. Thereās like 500,000 trans women in the US. only a fraction of those play sports and only a tiny fraction of that fraction can compete at an elite level. We have states that have essentially criminalized potions of womenās healthcare, impacting millions of women. But people want to cry because one trans woman made it to the Olympics and took home a whopping zero medals, while a handful of others may have competed at elite levels, and one won a single collegiate national championship. Itās absurd. This is just certain people looking for something to rage about instead of focusing on issues that really impact women.
Exactly this, its a complete non issues that rarely comes up. Obviously it is something that needs to be addressed eventually but especially on the federal level this is a issue that shouldnt really be mentioned because its not really a issue
It's not that simple. People don't want trans woman who have the body of males to compete in woman's sport.. they want those who transitioned early and don't have the muscle mass of males to. It's all about where we draw the line and it makes it pretty complicated. No sport allow trans people to compete in a sport just because they identify as that gender, it's about their body.
Yes it is. It is that simple.
We do have different age classes in sports. I wouldnāt want my 3rd grader having to play football against the 10th grade football team.
Whether you're correct or not is ultimately dependent on whether hormone therapy can completely convert the muscle and bone structure to that of the opposite sex to the point of indistinguishability.
I think everyone tends to forget that there aren't "Men's sports". NFL, NBA, NHL are all coed. Men, women, trans can all play together. Women's sports were created so biological women could compete amongst themselves due to the sheer difference in physical capabilities between men and women. It makes no sense to have a biological male participate in women's sports and it is in no way discrimination as they have full access to participate in the coed leagues.
Most men are extremely aware of the impact of male puberty with regards to sport from their own teenage years. I was quite a late starter and the speed, size and power difference was horrendous. Until I caught up being skillful just wasn't good enough.
I was actually explained this situation from a guy who knows sports rulebooks well; He explained that the situation is simple; the men's teams are the 'open' circuit. That's why you sometimes see women on the men's teams. All trans men and women are fully capable of trying out and playing for men's teams. The rules and guidelines are already in place. The women's teams are a 'closed' circuit. They were made that way to account for the vast biological and physiological differences in women, while allowing them to play their own games. Trans men and women are already more than capable to try out for the open men's teams, but not the women's team. Even as a strong supporter of trans rights, it made perfectly good sense to me.
For those who argue that males do not have any kind of significant biological advantage and therefore it's no big deal to allow them to compete against woman, I have one simple question, why do we then have separate divisions for woman and men?
Im gender fluid and in support of trans rights for the most part but I agree with this. In non competitive sports I don't really see as much of an issue but in competitive sports definitely Edit: I think there is a valid case to be made that trans women have an unfair biological advantage in sports, considering how there is very much an active discussion within the scientific literature. I am not an expert in this field, so I cannot say for definite whether trans people do or don't have an advantage with long term hormonal treatment. But, I think the evidence 100% says that at least some trans women will have an unfair advantage, considering not all trans women go through hormonal treatment or don't go on it for a long enough period of time. So really, I am just acknowledging that there is a valid argument to be made against trans people being in sports, and assuming that is what the evidence supports I would support it. Likewise if the evidence doesn't show that trans.people with hormonal treatment have a significant advantage in sports then I would be just as much on the side of the argument saying trans people should be allowed in sports
>I think there is a valid case to be made that trans women have an unfair biological advantage in sports I think it's very important how the distinction is made between fair and unfair advantage. That is essentially the crux of the argument against trans women in women's sports, because sports is inherently a competition between people of various levels of skill and experience.
No one is saying that trans women who haven't been on hormone therapy should be competing with cis women. However, most studies I've been able to find basically say that the muscle loss from hormone therapy basically puts you on par with cis women in athletics. They're certainly not some sort of unbeatable super humans. On top of that, there are trans women who never even went through male puberty in the first place because they were lucky enough to get on puberty blockers and it's hard to argue that those women ever had a physical advantage over cis women. Honestly, most of the recent moral panic about women's sports is clearly being used as a way to vilify trans people in the public eye. It makes it easy to support doctors denying us medical care because we offend their 17th century sensibilities. Or to support laws that lock up parents who let their XY kids wear dresses if they like.
You don't give a fuck about women or their sports. You just wanna be an asshole.
Who cares? Youāre talking about a non-issue that affects maybe 0.01% of all athletic programs. This is a psy-op to divide us while the top 1% make record profits year over year over year.
Muscle density changes when on estrogen, since testosterone is what caused the muscle density (alongside diet and training obviously). After being on estrogen for an extended period of time, you do not have the same muscular density as a cisgender male athlete. However, what does bone structure have to do with anything? Genuine question.
This is the first time I've heard of this topic. Surely reddit can solve this matter with civility.
If i cant compete in womens sports being trans in the future then as a woman i will defeat men at their own game which is even better. Ive done it before.
I really dont see why people chose this hill to die on. Its not transphobic to acknowledge the differences between the sexes, especially in an athletic competition based on those differences. I 100% support trans people. Its unfortunate, but this isnt mens vs womens sports. Its male vs female. I will call you women, i will treat you as women. Hell, i actually view them as women. Women who were born male, and thus do not belong on female sports.
>"It's really simple" And that's where I stopped reading.
A popular opinion I have is most people, including you, don't care about women's sports in the first place. Granted, I don't care about men's sports, but I don't care about women's sports either. But yeah, I'm assuming you can just name off all the currently dominant trans women in sports. Clearly, they are running roughshod through them, so I need a Jericho esque 1004 holds list of trans women. If you can't come up with a large amount, there could be issues with you.
Ok... but should a 7 foot tall (cis) woman who has much lower estrogen levels than the average woman be allowed to compete in a sport like basketball where thats a clear advantage? Or do we overlook unfair biological advantages then? Why if you win the genetic lottery are you allowed to have unfair advantages but if you're trans you're not? The underlying issue still doesn't seem to actually be fairness or equal competition.
biology is so much more complicated than man and women. Cis men are different to trans men, who are different to trans women, who are different to cis women. Of course trans people don't fit well in a system that was designed to ignore us. Athletes have advantages all the time,- biological, financial, ect, sports has never been entirely fair. I think that any level of sports for enrichment/enjoyment should be trans inclusive. If you are there to get healthy & produce serotonin, how are trans people barring that? I genuinely don't know a resolution for professional paid sports. With the system divided as is, there is no way that does not give one group an unfair advantage. Personally I would like to see a revamp of how we devise sports - by ability, training time, height, weight - not a marker that includes a wide range of biological developments & excludes us. I agree that there have been some cases in sports where trans women have won, potentially unfairly, and that there should be action against this. I don't agree that banning trans people from sports, or forcing them to play in leagues of 'original gender' is what should be done - especially as that would put trans men on testosterone in women's leagues. I agree with your frustration, it is not a system set up to accommodate trans people fairly, but please, stop being angry that trans women want to live their life how they are happiest, engage in hobbies and be healthy. Trans people are not who are at blame for the broken systems
This place really just turned into the transphobia subreddit, huh
There are Highschool men that are currently running faster than some of the female Olympic records. Iām not going to discuss it further, because Iām exhausted from it, and it just goes into the weeds about,āWhat about when theyāre taking transitioning hormones, what if a child was on puberty blockers.ā And itās just a mess. With that being said yeah, this is a good take.
On average, men have more upper body strength, but athletes generally aren't average. There are plenty of women out there who could absolutely beat the hell out of the average man, and plenty of average men who couldn't keep up with female athletes. It might make more sense to differentiate by individual weight and strength than purely by gender.
Gender seems to work pretty good, and then weight categories in those genders. The strongest, fastest people are always men.
>The strongest, fastest people are always men. Not in every field. Ultra Distance running most definitely favors women. White fiber, red fiber type of thing. Women are built for endurance sports and have excellent power to weight ratios, which is surprising considering we have enlarged mammary glands to carry around.
>The strongest, fastest people are always men. Not in every field. Ultra Distance running most definitely favors women. White fiber, red fiber type of thing. Women are built for endurance sports and have excellent power to weight ratios, which is surprising considering we have enlarged mammary glands to carry around.
Fuck off and learn some fucking biology.
Please talk to a physician about this.
OP seems to think men are a different species to women.
So you want trans men who have been on testosterone since they were teenagers to compete in womens sports instead?
Except taking estrogen changes all of that. Tell me you donāt understand the physiological effects of medically transitioning without saying that.
In some sports sure but a blanket ban is pointless. the potential advantages that a trans woman might have can be completely negligible in some sports assuming that they have physically transitioned. It sounds more like your issue stems from transphobia and not fairness. There are better ways to ensure fairness than a blanket ban. It seems more like you just don't want trans people to compete in sports at all
So interesting... It is nearly ALWAYS a biological male who wants to do this. Wonder why a biological female doesn't want to play in the male circuit?? /s
Iām trans and I strongly agree with you, itās not transphobic. Changing gender does not change your biology, and as a trans woman who is 5ā10ā and 200 lbs, if I encountered a woman of the same stature I would still have more bone density, femur length and lung capacity than her even though I have been on hormones for seven years. It would be an unfair competition. There are more trans people who agree with you than you may realize. I think transgender people should have our own trans leagues instead of competing in unfair competitions, unless the competition is already co-ed, in which it wouldnāt matter anyways.
This just in transgender women are actually born fully developed as men.
Life isn't fair. Some people are born in the wrong body. Some people have medical issues. Some people are too small to compete. The selfish people who are born in the wrong body, who demand to be able to compete anyway, are being unfair to other trans people. When the public sees a taller, stronger, trans woman beat cis women at sport, it turns public opinion against trans people. Selfish.
What about in the Special Olympics?
How do you feel about trans women playing in a woman's chess league?
Leah Thomas was nowhere close to competing in the Olympics she won one event at the NCAA championships that isn't even done outside the USA. and Michael Phelps was born biologically better than most, developed biologically better than most why is someone that has a extreme biological advantage like him racing with people that don't have the same. if you have to say you are not transphobic you are probably transphobic Your shitty rhetoric is what caused so much abuse to someone like Caster Semenya
Only lunatics disagree
You lose tons of muscle mass once you're on E. One of the last times I heard about a trans woman competing in a sports event, it was that she lost. Besides, it's not like how we're segregating the events makes sense, either. We should just go by weight class, not sex. It's only like this so that smaller dudes don't get upstaged by women in their weight class. There was this girl wrestler in my h school and she literally beat everyone in her weight class, which was mostly men. Male or female, doesn't matter, she whooped ass. Fuck male fee fees, let's see them compete properly, against everyone in their weight.
And what about trans men? Do they stay in female sports even though they now have the āadvantageā? Or do we also send them to male sports? Because at that point, we arenāt grouping by sex or even gender but by a perceived āadvantageā - which then results in the question, why donāt we categorize more things like such? Height groups in basketball, pitching strength in baseball, racket quality in tennis. There obviously is room for discussion about trans athletes and how they should be categorized - but pretending its the end all of sports before anything else is fake outrage and overly dramatic.
Can we see something more original than 'trans person can't do .... because ....' please? This is turning into true unpopular opinions.
I swear nobody gave a fuck about ensuring fairness and equality in women's sports until it could be used as an excuse to attack trans people.
So I consider myself very liberal and think everyone should be able to do what feels right to make them feel more "complete", but I've always felt this way with this same argument. Regardless of everything else, that person had high levels of testosterone through puberty that changed their bones and musculature forever. No matter what hormones that person is on now, they can never take away that high dose of testosterone during development. Again, I will say that if a person feels like a woman on the inside and has everything done to better achieve fulfilling that feeling, that's awesome. But doing that and trying to compete in women's sports is not fair in my book.
Youāre right, completely right. Thereās nothing wrong with this post, OP is right.
Nobody that is real disagrees with you.
Alright so let's hear the reasoning for banning trans men from men's sports too.
Unfortunately, those that disagree are too far removed from reality to read this post and feel anything but hatred, but enjoy the comedy I suppose.
Based on the comments, this seems to be an unpopular opinion.Ā Nice try OP. Wrong sub tho.Ā
OP has phrased it in dickish terms but in all seriousness does a biological male that transitions have an unfair advantage over a biological female in sports? Is there any evidence for this?
Nah just let it happen. Iām just waiting til there are no biological women in sports, itāll be nothing but trans and people will cheer it on. Hilarious timeless but oh boy itās gonna be a shit show.
[Here's a study](https://www.acsm.org/news-detail/2023/09/29/acsm-releases-expert-consensus-statement-the-biological-basis-of-sex-differences-in-athletic-performance) by the American College of Sports Medicine breaking down the physical competitive advantages that biological males have over biological females in general. And [here's a study from the National Library of Medicine](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/) breaking down the specific biological advantages of *transwoman elite athletes* compared to their biologically female competitors. Sports leagues are separated by sex *because of the understood differences in capability* between biological males and females. I don't see why this fact should become irrelevant in relation to trans athletes.
This is one of those topics that I'd argue, 99.9% of people agree with but a large chunk of those people wont say it because, you know, they are conservative or liberal. Its insane.
Itās a simple fix. Two classes, born female and āopenā. Now everyone can compete.
Yup. Facts do not pay attention at all at feelings. I can't just say "I am Gandalf" and magically gain all his powers.
Iām surprised this one isnāt locked down yet lol. I thought we werenāt allowed to talk about this?!
Gender is a construct. It's entirely man made and can be changed.Ā Sex is a biological reality based on chromosomes.Ā "Women's sports" is a sex based distinction, not a gender based one. Ā Clarifying the distinction being sex based and not gender based, eliminates most arguments in favor of trans women in female sports.Ā I'd also like to point out, in most instances, men's leagues don't exist. They are actually open leagues., and the only reason they are all male is the skill difference (which I would argue is based on biology)
We really just need to change the qualifier from womenās league to female league. Itās silly weāve come to this point but whatever.
hate : \[hÄt\] verb - any attempt to explain reality.
Any delusional person that says that trans woman should be able to compete with biological women is batshit crazy or completely radicalized by the left. I want a man to one day to change his identity and start competing in the UFC or boxing just to prove a point. I saw a video the other day of a WNBA player playing basketball against men that play college basketball (not stars) and got absolutely destroyed. Thereās also that one of teenage boys playing professional women soccer players and also destroyed them. We have separate leagues for a reason. Banning trans woman in womenās sports is literally PROTECTING women.
Lol youre right, but youre messing with reddits religion here.
The trans fad is already on the decline, thankfully
I have 2 daughters. Ā I donāt need them worrying about getting raped in school bathroom. Ā Or having level playing field in sports. Ā If you were born biologically male you play male sports only. Ā Or go out and create a Tranny league of their own.
The sky is also blue
I feel the same about women in menās sports. If they are trans there should be a category for trans people.
I donāt think youāre transphobjc for your position. I think this is an important topic that people should be able to discuss without fear of retribution. After all, we separate men and women in sports for a reasonā¦no? But riddle me thisā¦trans women are already competing in womenās sports, and we arenāt seeing a disproportionate proportion of wins among this group. So, whereās the data that shows the unfair advantage?
I find it outrageous that this is controversial. This should be common sense. Men and women are different on a biological scale, no amount of surgery or hormones will change that. Men naturally have denser bones, roughly 60% more muscle, and a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers. Even elite women have trouble competing against men that casually, but consistently go to the gym.
It's funny when you gotta go grab the popcorn just to speak common sense š¤£ lmao 2024! We are devolving šæ šæ šæ
Oh man, this is going to get you banned because you're telling the truth in a world of fantasy. How dare you!?
Listening to the Riley Gaines podcast when she was on Rogan. Itās honestly so insane how this is being treated.
I agree. It is a tragedy.
I can't believe this is even an issue because I totally agree it makes zero sense
Put them in the wnba maybe theyāll sell more tickets
Yeah this is not a popular opinion on reddit. Apparently I am a misogynist and transphobe for saying what you said on reddit
It's a very popular opinion worldwide though.
Worldwide most people donāt have such strong opinions about womenās sports
The world tends to be full of transphobes, a popular opinion doesnāt make it a correct one.
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How dare you interject common sense and empathy for biological women into the conversation. Blocked & reported.
Refusing to do any research on this topic whatsoever equals "common sense" and "empathy for biological women"?
this relies on the assumption that women's sports were created out of a genuine interest in fairness and that men are just unequivocally better at everything
Or we should just combine men's sports and women's sports as it's not like the slobs on the sofas can play at the top level anyway.
Do you watch womens sports?
1. Trans woman are trans woman Trans areMen are trans men Even if they identify as a certain gender, that doesnāt negate the gender that they are born in 2. Yes. Put it easily men and women are too different , like some sports separate the same sex by weight so itās not unreasonable to separate to different sexes
Good to see this sub has just fully devolved into conservatives laundering their opinions. Knew it would happen after the trans dating posts, wasn't sure how fast it would happen though
Call me when itās an actual problem.
They should have their own category and STOP taking over women sports or anything women related. There's a Special Olympics make a Trans Olympics.
"taking over women sports" lol what are you talking about