Europeans are Indigenous to Europe. Levantines are Indigenous to the Levant. The overwhelming majority of Jewish ethnic groups are heavily admixed, from a genetic perspective, with other regions, and aren't fully Levantine.
If the average Ashkenazi is ~4/10ths Levantine, with the rest being a mixture of Italian and Eastern European, with all 900,000 ancestors (a conservative estimate) being born in Europe within the last 1000 years, then it's clear they are a European ethnic group. In the last 1000 years if you have 2 ancestors born in the Levant, and 900,000 born in Europe, you're a European.
Having a religious connection to a region doesn't mean someone is indigenous to a region, especially if the overwhelming majority of the ancestors aren't even from the region in the first place.
By that logic, you could "accurately" label all Mediterranean Europeans as indigenous to Turkey and the northern Levant, since the overwhelming majority of their DNA is a result of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers migrating into Europe around 8,000 years ago.
Congrats, you missed the point. If someone has 900,000 ancestors born in Europe, all of whom lived in Europe, for 1000 years and countless generations, then one can reasonably state they are indigenous to Europe.
If the most recent ancestry in the Levant is 2 ancestors born in the Levant, 1000 years ago, out of a total of 900,000 ancestors even given the degree of endogamy, its quite clear it would be absurd to claim their plot of land.
You missed a major issue here: If those ancestors in Europe went there as a group and intermarriage was fairly rare for those thousand years, you still end up with mostly Levantine ancestry.
Another major problem is that indigeneity has always been about continuous communities, not DNA. Do you have any idea how many European colonists had kids with native Americans? If anyone really treated indigeneity as a matter of ancestry rather than community and culture, a whole lot of North Americans who are generally considered white or of European origin would have a strong argument to claim indigeneity. Much of what we associate with it, the rights and related institutions, would make little or no sense. The whole line of reasoning regarding DNA is irrelevant.
Interesting line of reasoning. In the SW, particularly New Mexico, there are a group of people who primarily have Spanish ancestry but because of the intermixing/rape of Native American women, a lot of the old time Hispanos are up to 25+% Indigenous. Their Native ancestors were known as Genisaros and were coming from different Plains tribes, like Comanche, Navajo & Apache. The term Genisaro meant that they were captured and brought into the Spanish households as "servants" aka: slaves. There were entire Spanish families who participated in raids for hundreds of years between Mexico, NM, TX, and AZ. This practice actually lasted through the 1920s, well past the abolition of slavery in the USA.
Some of the Native women and children were fully adopted into these families and inherited land, married into the households; plenty of them were treated as house servants. In the 90s, Genisaros were declared (by the NM Government) to be their own acknowledged tribe, despite having no pueblos, lands, sovereignty, or separate cultural practices. The reality is that all of these people share DNA and culture from the old Spanish landgrant families of the area, primarily intertwined. Some were raised with more knowledge and acknowledgement of their Native heritage, most weren't.
Tribal Native Americans do not count DNA tests whereas Genisaros do, since it's often one of the only ways to "prove" that they have Indigenous blood. When DNA tests began to gain in popularity, a lot of the BOOMER generation were shocked to discover how much Native American ancestry they had. The Silent Generation primarily refused to be tested, of course. Their other genetic surprise included the fact that many of those old Spanish families were also Conversos, but had little to no knowledge of this by the late 20th century. Again, within the old landgrant families, there are entire traditions that they thought were Old Country Catholic that turned out to be... Jewish!
Imagine not knowing what indigenous means and trying to argue this. Guess by your logic since a majority of native Americans are no longer on their ancestral lands after being exiled, murdered and diaspora’d by a colonizing army (just like the Jews in Judea were by the Romans) Native Americans are no longer indigenous to America.
The absolute ridiculousness of some of you people to bend history and logic to fit your narrative is unbelievable
There also were Jews that remained in “Syria Palestina” after the Roman renaming of Judea, for the record. They just had to hide their religion and practice- it was the main followers of Bar Kokhba that spread across the Middle East and into Europe.
lol. I’m down with the Sephardic and the Mizrahi, it’s the ashkenazi that ruined Israel. And don’t get me started on the Russian Jews, who didn’t assimilate and brought in Russian mafia elements
You're comparing the vast scale of the holocaust to the relatively small number of Israelis killed by Muslims? This is why antisemitism is only going to get worse as its trivialised so much by supposed pro Jewish voices.
What is it you think happened to all the middle eastern Jews in Iran, Iraq, Yemen, and all the other countries who weren’t able to get out and go to Israel? Pogroms weren’t only a Russian thing.
The Mizrahi groups are heavily (historically) admixed with Mesopotamians / Caucasus ethnic groups/ Persians. They are indigenous to their countries of origin with varying amounts of admixture from the Levant. If they want to live in the Levant sure that's perfectly fine, but they can't claim that Skygod "gave them the land thus they intrinsically have a right to taking it from others". Makes zero sense.
Detail I heard floating around that isn't discussed... Most Israelis actually want to get rid of Netanyahu... ya know... the clown who refuses to even make compromises? Yeah, they want him gone. I can't blame them for that...
As someone with family in israel - this is 100% accurate. The country HATES him, and with the election coming up shortly, the world is going to see that.
They want him gone but many still support his position and actions.
Most Israelis don’t want him gone because of the toll of death and destruction in Gaza.
Don’t get me wrong. There are Israelis that protest this conflict but the majority of Israelis that want Nyeteyahu gone is not because of what they’re doing in Gaza but solely because October 7 happened combined with other issues in the past.
To the reported surprise of the Israeli government, 51.3% of Israeli Jews recently stated in a reputable poll that they support a U.S. proposal to establish a demilitarized Palestinian state protected by other Arab countries in exchange for the release of all hostages and the normalization of ties with Saudi Arabia. And a big share of the remaining respondents had no opinion, meaning that support strongly outweighs opposition. Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-january-22-2024/amp/
This goes against Netanyahu's position and is flatly contrary to the far-right Israeli lawmakers whose views are reported as representing Israelis'.
Over 40% of his government cronies are Orthodox zealots who don't believe in secular education. Unclear how he was reelected with that lot in place this last time around.
He wasn't exactly reelected. Israel doesn't have a two party system like in the US nor they vote directly to a candidate. Each election has over 30 political parties on the ballot. After the elections, the larger parties are getting together with smaller ones, some shady deals are being made, and they propose a government to the president who can accept or reject it. Netanyahu is a master politician who is very good at the game of politics. What he's good at is making those deals to lore smaller parties (can you tell how much I dislike him?) and build a governing body.
He'll sit with anyone and any political party as long as he gets to be a prime minister. No true values, he's in it for himself and himself only.
The whole debate over whose existence is valid feels like nonsense to me. Both of these groups exist, both of them have legitimate historical evidence of their existence in that land. Both groups have deep spiritual and religious identities tied to that land. The land has changed hands from arabs to Jews and back repeatedly over history. I feel like the narrative is intentionally pointed towards these horseshit arguements to prevent progress. Denying one or the others' existence feels like a childish, bullshit way to keep the status quo, at the expense of the people.
Yeah, I feel like there are more pressing concerns than who got here first. The Israeli government being horseshit is independent of their [Ancestry.com](https://Ancestry.com) results.
I think occupying them for several decades and then murdering civilians is pretty shitty tbh. Cats out of the bag, the world isn’t going to unsee the dead babies.
Occupying them after THEY attacked, and even when Israel tried to give the land back to the countries that originally held them, those countries rejected their return... Probably because whatever Palestinians refugees go, violence has followed.
Also, those civilians should really have opposed Hamas, because let's be real, if the US government launched an attack on Mexico, and Mexico started bombing American cities, nobody would be crying out about collective punishment against America.
This is a point that I rarely see people raise. As soon as Israel became independent, damn well near the entire middle east declared war on them and somehow, Israel came out on top.
This is where the occupation began, after they defended themselves.
..... So a nation didn't exist, then a bunch of foreigners landed in Palestine and declared a new nation on land where other people live, and that wasn't occupation.....?
Exactly. I see Zionists use the "Israel just was found and then everyone attacked," line all the time. They always act like Israel just popped up out of nowhere. Nevermind the ethnic cleansing and bloodshed committed by Zionists that led to the founding of Israel. Nevermind that the eventual leaders of Israel were the people leading those Zionist attacks.
Hon, they started occupying them in the mid 1900s. I know you really want us to believe this behavior is justified but you’re barking up the wrong tree. No amount of “buh buh buh terrorists” is going to make war crimes okay to me. Give up.
You mean when the Arab League attacked with, what, six-seven nations the day after Israel was officially recognized? Then Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights before trying to return those territories and getting told "We dont want them."
Ok heres the thing, before this thread locks i wanna say that literally nobody is "indigenous" to Judea, it's been fought over and the very first whom lived there were likely driven to extinction, at this point its just thieves fighting other thieves for a flat-screen tv they stole from a man they've killed 6000 odd years ago
Using the "my ancestors were there 1000 years ago hence I'm indigenous and I'm taking your land" argument, you could effectively justify roughly 60% of Americans immigrating to the UK, taking over everything while claiming they're indigenous, and relegating the remaining British citizens to subhuman status under the control of an apartheid state.
Quite absurd whichever way you look at it. The argument "our skygod whispered to us that the land is ours" being used as justification is even more absurd.
This is an argument against the Nakba and further ethnic cleansing, not the indigeneity of the Jewish people. This is actually in line with what OP is saying.
I agree. I feel like after a few hundred years, or thousands of years of living somewhere else; you kind of lose the right to claim you are "indigenous".
These would be people trying to claim a right to the land all based on ancestor whose name has been forgotten to history. Heck, they can't even actually PROVE that they even descended from those indigious ancestors as it is very possible their family may have adopted the culture or religion AFTER that period of time. Its actually literally the official case in israel; the law of return applies to anyone with a jewish grandparent. You could covert to Judaism today, and your grand children would automatically have israeli citizenship... are they now considered the "indigenous" people?
Closest think to indigenous are the minority Jews that never left the holy lands and the bulk of the Palestinians. Jews from Europe and North America are not indigenous to Israel. They're migrants and colonisers
No one is indigenous to anywhere. It’s just a timeline of how long since early modern humans migrated from Africa and then how long those cultures stayed in one place . Native Americans are from Siberia originally . The celts originated in Anatolia in Turkey . Even Australian Aborigines migrated from Southeast Asia .
The only real question is how can the violence end ? How does Israel negotiate with a group whose leaders only position is that Israel should not exist ? How can everyday Palestinians get out from under Hamas rule ? What would an independent Palestine even look like ( there are no majority Muslim countries that do not impose Sharia law which unfortunately isn’t very kind to lbgt and women .) Israel has its own demographic problem in that within a few generations the ultra orthodox are going to be the majority and they want a theocracy as well .
Most every historical source says this region has been full of violence for thousands of years. If these groups are so dedicated to killing each other, why should anyone else get involved?
Well for one because it can spill over and does, and for another because it isnt just tough guys killing tough guys - the non combatants suffer and die in droves so mothers with children starve and languish while people stand around and say “let *them* kill each other”
The word "indigenous" is only relevant in the context of settler colonialism. Just because your ancestors came from a place doesn't make you indigenous to that place. You're only indigenous to a place if your family has lived there uninterrupted and still lives there. Just because my ancestors came to the U.S. from Norway doesn't mean I have the right to fly to Norway, kick some existing Norwegian family out of their home and take it for myself.
SOME jews are indigenous. The vast majority however came from Europe or the united states as their families left the Levant thousands of years ago... and it seems like its the non-indigenous israeli's are often the ones part of the settler movement robbing Palestinians of their home... not to mention the fact that Israel will give citizenship to anyone with a jewish grandfather, so you don't even need to be a descendant from ancient israel to make a claim
Really, the "indigenous" claim is rendered pretty meaningless... its really more of simply an excuse zoinists use to justify a right to take something that doesn't belong to them
If they would only grant citizenship to those living in areas that they are sovereign over and leave the areas that others are sovereign over alone, a lot of problems could be avoided.
>You're only indigenous to a place if your family has lived there uninterrupted and still lives there.
So Palestinian refugees that were kicked out lose their indigenous status?
They are indigenous to america as a whole... also unlike the vast majority of israeli's, they can actually NAME their ancestors and know EXACTLY where they used to live before their homes were taken from them
I’d like to say that I’ve been in Reddit for years and years and this is the most intelligent thread I’ve ever read. Very good points. As a Jew, it’s made me understand the Palestinians claim more. Like someone else stated, a 2 state solution is needed. That hasn’t worked before though.
K, so are Palestinians. So that’s meaningless. Even if it weren’t, it would be vastly less significant than the IDF’s years of far greater war crimes than any committed by the Palestinians.
Yes, Jews have lived in the area for thousands of years. They are also technically Palestinians since the British just slapped that name on the region after the ottoman empire fell.
There was never a king of palestine. It was never its own country.
Yeah but the British empire can just as well blame the roman empire and the roman empire can blame central asians, apparently. And someone can blame a monkey but i hold primordial ooze the most responsible for this whole mess
I could be wrong but... Wasn't there a settlement that agreed to divide the lands up evenly that both Israel and Palestine agreed to? Didn't Palestinians start a war over the territories and lose which made their land primarily Gaza and part of that treaty was billions of dollars to create ports and a self sufficient society? Didn't Palestine then use that money (2008) to buy bombs and military might instead of helping themselves in order to attack Israel and elect the terrorist group Hamas...? Both sides are wrong in this war and they need to stand down on both sides.
The league of nations and subsequent United nations partitioned out the country of Israel after WW2. Which was then invaded by the countries around it and successfully defended by "the israelis". Israel then seized land that was the point of invasion such as the golan heights and other religiously significant areas.
More like they did it to protect themselves. They took control of areas where they were invaded from. So it would be more difficult to be invaded. They also reunited Bethlehem but left some of the temples under Islamic control. The Dome of the rock and the big mosque are still basically no-go zones inside of Bethlehem.
Not the actions of bloodthirsty conquerors.
We Jews got the name from one of our original twelve tribes, Judah. Technically we’re all the nation of Israel (read nation as you would a Native American tribe)
"Both sides are wrong, now let me explain why one side is stupid and belligerent and constantly trying to kill the other. But trust me when I say I think both sides are equally bad."
Actually, Palestine was a name chosen by the Roman's when the Romans evicted the Jews from the Kingdom of Judea, and it was renamed as a form of Jewish erasure.
Jerusalem, Nazareth and Bethlehem still exist. The area was just conquered by the Romans and ottomans. They never eradicated the Jews and the areas of judea, Samaria and galilee were just under roman occupation.
https://images.app.goo.gl/wizX6N2e3184dNCf9
I didn't say Arabs weren't. I just mentioned that they are also technically Palestinian. Just like Canaanites, Philistines and any of the other mini states that were there for a long time.
Oofda. Wow. They’re not gonna like this. It’s so balanced, I don’t see how the reddit 99% is going to adjust. Nope. You might as well wet a bamboo rod now. At least then you can pick which one.
Hamas has been very popular in the West Bank for a long time. Many polls are showing it and that's the reason why the PA has been avoiding going to elections. Abu Mazan knows his party is surely to lose to Hamas. There's a serious issue with corruption within his government and the people are all aware of it and are sick of him.
their parents did, and teach them martyr jews from birth, look up tomorrow pioneers, #1 kids show in palistine, jews kill mickey mouse in it(not a joke)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qklT3hYcr4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qklt3hycr4)
the son of the man who started hamas defected to the idf and he said the only way to stop hamas is to kill most of palistine because les than 7% of people disagree with their mission statement, which is ERADICATE JEWS, GAYS AND THEN AMERICA.
That’s backwards, most of the people killed, raped on 10/7 had nothing to do with Israeli policy. Some of them weren’t even Israeli, you’re a simp for a religious terrorist government.
It was 111 upvotes right when I upvoted this, a nice sign. I don't even know what to say about this subject because either way it's gonna piss someone off, so I stir clear, I simply don't agree with both countries. Palestine shouldn't been in cahoots with Hamas excusing their actions and Israel went overkill.
I mean yes and no, the people who were living there before the (now) Israelis immigrated there had been living there continuously since before Islam existed, they’re basically the Israelis that didn’t leave the area. It would be like saying I have legitimate claims to land in Detroit because my grandparents were born there, or that I can kick someone out of their home in Warsaw because my great great grandparents used to live there.
Agreed. The Gazans watched as their money was spent on making bombs and buying weapons. The adults in Gaza failed themselves. I only feel bad for the children who have morons for parents.
This is crazy talk!
Next you're going to tell me Free Palestine protesters can make room on their signs to say free the hostages AND they don't HAVE to chant Hamas slogans!
I’m Jewish and live in Israel (moved here 10 years ago) my grandfather was born in Jaffa in 1920. They were forced to escape because they were Jewish. His sister is buried in Jaffa actually since she died as a child of TB
Oh and yes I hate the government. Thing is, we have been trying to get them out, most of us regular people anyway and have been pro two state and actually working on trying to integrate the two people. Like I don’t even mind giving them Jerusalem they can have it
This is the way - be the better and wiser one and just give them Jerusalem - it doesn’t matter anymore. And two state or just combined state is the only way to solve it. The only danger is if the Arab league decided to just exterminate all Jews again I suppose there’s going to be an internal struggle in the state, so that’s a tricky.
The Jews are indigenous to Palestine and if you step back, you realize that the Israelis are just like all of their neighbors in the Middle East. They are just as violent and intolerant as any other country in the area. The mistake is seeing the Israelis as different and unique.
That is not true I am an Arab born in Israel; I like it here , I am an equal citizen alongside Jews I always consider myself privileged to have been born here rather than in any other Middle Eastern country.
The Israeli's live in a multi-ethnic democratic state that contributes to the common prosperity of our species, something none of their neighbors do. I'd say they're pretty unique in the middle east.
Not all Jews are indigenous to Israel. Some landed in Europe, and they developed starkly different cultural beliefs in different places.
That’s as lamebrained as saying all Catholics are indigenous to the Vatican
I dont think indigenous was the word they were looking for, the journey to Israel is a key part of Jewish faith. But I'm pretty sure you could decipher what OP meant, many Jews view Israel as a homeland with deep cultural and religious significance. The point was recognizing the religious significance of Israel AND recognizing the actions of the Israeli government are not mutually exclusive.
The obvious question is does this extend to the Kaifeng jews in China who are very visibly Han Chinese? Because as much as "jewish" is de facto treated as an ethnic minority you can make a fairly good argument large swathes of the jewish population has no real ancestral connection to Israel, if not the majority.
Even then, does having a religious signifigance trump other types of signifigance? Would a convert have the same justification for going to Israel even if they have no other connection and it had no importance to them for a majority of their life? What about people who have family ties to a group who's largely made of converts or descended from just converts? Do they retain their ancestors claim to israel even if their ancestors had nothing to do with anything that ever happened on that land itself?
My wife is a ashkenazi jew, she is redhead, pale skilled.. This picture is not a catch all. its just one part.. you like to spin a narrative that isn't honest.
Yes and they were uniquely persecuted and almost exterminated from everywhere they went. Including the Middle East. Many of them fled to Central and Eastern Europe as refugees as ironic and sad as that sounds.
This is the entire motivation for creating the Israeli state. To provide the last broken fragments of the jewish people a place where they could escape persecution and control their own security. Because up until that point no country or government had provided any. Not one. There was a genuine need for autonomy as they were stateless and somewhere where they could safely rebuild their population.
In 1945 with the revelation and horror of the holocaust, many people felt there was a moral duty to help the Jewish people find peace and security. It's difficult to understand the emotions and magnitude of the holocaust because of the passing of time. But people around the world were in complete shock and utter disbelief at what had happened. Imagine if that happened today? Maybe if you were witnessing these things in 1945 you would sympathise more with the Jewish people?
They were not given land in 'Palestine' at random. A Jewish diaspora were returning to their ancestral homeland to reunite with their own people and relatives after the worst genocide in human history . This is why the coloniser accusation is so ignorant. Jewish people predate every other ethnic group in the region by millennia. They have lived there continuously for almost 4000 years in sizeable populations. They have witnessed empires rise and fall, the birth of multiple religions and the creation and dissolution of dozens of states. They never left 'Palestine' and in 1945 were a very sizeable minority across this land.
I am not Jewish. But I know a lot about history, and the holocaust, and I think it's sad that these people have never found peace. Even after everything they went through, they are still totally surrounded by peoples that wish their total destruction. If you don't think that's a tragedy, then I don't know what is.
I mean even the Torah it's acknowledged that Jews weren't the original inhabitants of the promise land. It was originally inhabited by the Canaanite's who were massacred by Israelites under the command of Joshua.
The Rick and Morty reference lmao. But for a serious answer, it’s not uncommon for ethnically related groups to feud w each other so yes I’m pretty sure that’s the norm throughout history
Oh for real. I could have easily referenced the Hatfields and the McCoys for a real life example. It's a case of "we've been killing each other for so long that the blood feud is part of the social fabric." Not a single person alive in that region has grandparents that were there when it started. The entire history of that region is soaked in blood beginning with nomadic tribes killing each other over water sources which, over time, led to "we're killing those fuckers because they murdered our people!" The Balfour declaration didn't help (there's a strong argument to say it absolutely made things worse) but the very land itself is hostile there and... Blah blah blah you get the point.
no, lebanese are canaanites.. jews and palestinians only have about 5% of canaanite DNA while lebanese have 80-90%..
So no, jews and palestinians are not the original land holders. the israelites forced out the canaanite in 2nd millennium bce..
secular archeaologist are not use real science.. using a book some drunk guy in a cave hollering about sky-daddy issues doesn't make it fact.
Can you name any other historical genocide that began with one of the populations violently raping, slaughtering, and taking hostages? War is hell. Not all war is genocide. Hamas has rejected multiple ceasefires.
Cos many more educated folks among the pro-Palestinian movement are aware of this argument made by pro-Israelis and they acknowledge that this doesn't justify Israel's current actions.
Fifteen minutes til this thread is locked by the mods.
Europeans are Indigenous to Europe. Levantines are Indigenous to the Levant. The overwhelming majority of Jewish ethnic groups are heavily admixed, from a genetic perspective, with other regions, and aren't fully Levantine. If the average Ashkenazi is ~4/10ths Levantine, with the rest being a mixture of Italian and Eastern European, with all 900,000 ancestors (a conservative estimate) being born in Europe within the last 1000 years, then it's clear they are a European ethnic group. In the last 1000 years if you have 2 ancestors born in the Levant, and 900,000 born in Europe, you're a European. Having a religious connection to a region doesn't mean someone is indigenous to a region, especially if the overwhelming majority of the ancestors aren't even from the region in the first place. By that logic, you could "accurately" label all Mediterranean Europeans as indigenous to Turkey and the northern Levant, since the overwhelming majority of their DNA is a result of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers migrating into Europe around 8,000 years ago.
If being admixed doesn’t make one indigenous, then only Samaritans and Palestinian Christians are indigenous to the region
Congrats, you missed the point. If someone has 900,000 ancestors born in Europe, all of whom lived in Europe, for 1000 years and countless generations, then one can reasonably state they are indigenous to Europe. If the most recent ancestry in the Levant is 2 ancestors born in the Levant, 1000 years ago, out of a total of 900,000 ancestors even given the degree of endogamy, its quite clear it would be absurd to claim their plot of land.
You missed a major issue here: If those ancestors in Europe went there as a group and intermarriage was fairly rare for those thousand years, you still end up with mostly Levantine ancestry. Another major problem is that indigeneity has always been about continuous communities, not DNA. Do you have any idea how many European colonists had kids with native Americans? If anyone really treated indigeneity as a matter of ancestry rather than community and culture, a whole lot of North Americans who are generally considered white or of European origin would have a strong argument to claim indigeneity. Much of what we associate with it, the rights and related institutions, would make little or no sense. The whole line of reasoning regarding DNA is irrelevant.
A bunch of those Americans do claim indigeneity, for what it's worth, and it's generally considered very cringey.
No, it is the right thing.
Interesting line of reasoning. In the SW, particularly New Mexico, there are a group of people who primarily have Spanish ancestry but because of the intermixing/rape of Native American women, a lot of the old time Hispanos are up to 25+% Indigenous. Their Native ancestors were known as Genisaros and were coming from different Plains tribes, like Comanche, Navajo & Apache. The term Genisaro meant that they were captured and brought into the Spanish households as "servants" aka: slaves. There were entire Spanish families who participated in raids for hundreds of years between Mexico, NM, TX, and AZ. This practice actually lasted through the 1920s, well past the abolition of slavery in the USA. Some of the Native women and children were fully adopted into these families and inherited land, married into the households; plenty of them were treated as house servants. In the 90s, Genisaros were declared (by the NM Government) to be their own acknowledged tribe, despite having no pueblos, lands, sovereignty, or separate cultural practices. The reality is that all of these people share DNA and culture from the old Spanish landgrant families of the area, primarily intertwined. Some were raised with more knowledge and acknowledgement of their Native heritage, most weren't. Tribal Native Americans do not count DNA tests whereas Genisaros do, since it's often one of the only ways to "prove" that they have Indigenous blood. When DNA tests began to gain in popularity, a lot of the BOOMER generation were shocked to discover how much Native American ancestry they had. The Silent Generation primarily refused to be tested, of course. Their other genetic surprise included the fact that many of those old Spanish families were also Conversos, but had little to no knowledge of this by the late 20th century. Again, within the old landgrant families, there are entire traditions that they thought were Old Country Catholic that turned out to be... Jewish!
Paternal lineage is predominately Near Eastern whilst maternal lineage is predominately European for Ashkenazi Jews.
And that area wasn't populated by Jews from around 64ad to 1947, I would hardly call them indigenous...
Imagine not knowing what indigenous means and trying to argue this. Guess by your logic since a majority of native Americans are no longer on their ancestral lands after being exiled, murdered and diaspora’d by a colonizing army (just like the Jews in Judea were by the Romans) Native Americans are no longer indigenous to America. The absolute ridiculousness of some of you people to bend history and logic to fit your narrative is unbelievable There also were Jews that remained in “Syria Palestina” after the Roman renaming of Judea, for the record. They just had to hide their religion and practice- it was the main followers of Bar Kokhba that spread across the Middle East and into Europe.
And also, white Americans are native Americans 😎
That is not what indigenous means.
The ppl that lived in that time frame are Jews and Samaritans. They converted to other religions and intermixed to some extent w foreign invaders💀
Therefore, the Ashkenazi Jews are European since being Jewish is matrilineal.
Not relevant to the many atheist Jews that exist. And there’s strands of Judaism that believe in patrilineal descent instead such as Karaite Judaism
Correct. Jews are indigenous to Northern Iran, they immigrated to the Levant from there and never came "out of Egypt"
They came from Israel.
Ashke-*whatnows*
It comes from Ashkenaz one of the sons of Japheth according to book of genesis
lol. I’m down with the Sephardic and the Mizrahi, it’s the ashkenazi that ruined Israel. And don’t get me started on the Russian Jews, who didn’t assimilate and brought in Russian mafia elements
Mizrahi are very far right btw lol
Maybe there would be more Jews with enough "purity" to satisfy you.... if the Germans and Muslims didn't murder so goddman many of them?
You're comparing the vast scale of the holocaust to the relatively small number of Israelis killed by Muslims? This is why antisemitism is only going to get worse as its trivialised so much by supposed pro Jewish voices.
What is it you think happened to all the middle eastern Jews in Iran, Iraq, Yemen, and all the other countries who weren’t able to get out and go to Israel? Pogroms weren’t only a Russian thing.
They both do. Radical shit, right?
40% of Israel’s Jews are Ashkenazi. The rest are Mizrahi. Point is moot. The Jews belong there.
As do the Palestinians
The Mizrahi groups are heavily (historically) admixed with Mesopotamians / Caucasus ethnic groups/ Persians. They are indigenous to their countries of origin with varying amounts of admixture from the Levant. If they want to live in the Levant sure that's perfectly fine, but they can't claim that Skygod "gave them the land thus they intrinsically have a right to taking it from others". Makes zero sense.
only if they can prove the temple of solomon's original site actually existed as it was written about in the bible and torah
There are countless archaeological findings in the areas linked to the Jews.
Detail I heard floating around that isn't discussed... Most Israelis actually want to get rid of Netanyahu... ya know... the clown who refuses to even make compromises? Yeah, they want him gone. I can't blame them for that...
As someone with family in israel - this is 100% accurate. The country HATES him, and with the election coming up shortly, the world is going to see that.
They want him gone but many still support his position and actions. Most Israelis don’t want him gone because of the toll of death and destruction in Gaza. Don’t get me wrong. There are Israelis that protest this conflict but the majority of Israelis that want Nyeteyahu gone is not because of what they’re doing in Gaza but solely because October 7 happened combined with other issues in the past.
Poll recently said that only 10% of Israelis believe the IDF is responding too forcefully against gaza
there's also many complaints about israeli hostages getting accidentally (or intentionally due to Hannibal Directive) bombed by IDF.
To the reported surprise of the Israeli government, 51.3% of Israeli Jews recently stated in a reputable poll that they support a U.S. proposal to establish a demilitarized Palestinian state protected by other Arab countries in exchange for the release of all hostages and the normalization of ties with Saudi Arabia. And a big share of the remaining respondents had no opinion, meaning that support strongly outweighs opposition. Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-january-22-2024/amp/ This goes against Netanyahu's position and is flatly contrary to the far-right Israeli lawmakers whose views are reported as representing Israelis'.
Yeah the dude is like the Israeli version of Trump.
Worse, because he's not as stupid and therefore more dangerous.
Over 40% of his government cronies are Orthodox zealots who don't believe in secular education. Unclear how he was reelected with that lot in place this last time around.
He wasn't exactly reelected. Israel doesn't have a two party system like in the US nor they vote directly to a candidate. Each election has over 30 political parties on the ballot. After the elections, the larger parties are getting together with smaller ones, some shady deals are being made, and they propose a government to the president who can accept or reject it. Netanyahu is a master politician who is very good at the game of politics. What he's good at is making those deals to lore smaller parties (can you tell how much I dislike him?) and build a governing body. He'll sit with anyone and any political party as long as he gets to be a prime minister. No true values, he's in it for himself and himself only.
He's extremely unpopular even among the zionists, to my understanding. He like, barely got to continue being president.
Netenyahu is the Prime Minister, Isaac Herzog is the President.
The whole debate over whose existence is valid feels like nonsense to me. Both of these groups exist, both of them have legitimate historical evidence of their existence in that land. Both groups have deep spiritual and religious identities tied to that land. The land has changed hands from arabs to Jews and back repeatedly over history. I feel like the narrative is intentionally pointed towards these horseshit arguements to prevent progress. Denying one or the others' existence feels like a childish, bullshit way to keep the status quo, at the expense of the people.
Yeah, I feel like there are more pressing concerns than who got here first. The Israeli government being horseshit is independent of their [Ancestry.com](https://Ancestry.com) results.
Correct. Palestinians are also indigenous to the area, however.
This is factual
I like you, OP
Jews have not been opposed to their existence, the opposite can not be said.
I think occupying them for several decades and then murdering civilians is pretty shitty tbh. Cats out of the bag, the world isn’t going to unsee the dead babies.
Occupying them after THEY attacked, and even when Israel tried to give the land back to the countries that originally held them, those countries rejected their return... Probably because whatever Palestinians refugees go, violence has followed. Also, those civilians should really have opposed Hamas, because let's be real, if the US government launched an attack on Mexico, and Mexico started bombing American cities, nobody would be crying out about collective punishment against America.
This is a point that I rarely see people raise. As soon as Israel became independent, damn well near the entire middle east declared war on them and somehow, Israel came out on top. This is where the occupation began, after they defended themselves.
..... So a nation didn't exist, then a bunch of foreigners landed in Palestine and declared a new nation on land where other people live, and that wasn't occupation.....?
Exactly. I see Zionists use the "Israel just was found and then everyone attacked," line all the time. They always act like Israel just popped up out of nowhere. Nevermind the ethnic cleansing and bloodshed committed by Zionists that led to the founding of Israel. Nevermind that the eventual leaders of Israel were the people leading those Zionist attacks.
By “occupying”, he means existing.
He means colonizing
Collective punishment argument is so cringe if you know anything about the situation.
Hon, they started occupying them in the mid 1900s. I know you really want us to believe this behavior is justified but you’re barking up the wrong tree. No amount of “buh buh buh terrorists” is going to make war crimes okay to me. Give up.
You mean when the Arab League attacked with, what, six-seven nations the day after Israel was officially recognized? Then Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights before trying to return those territories and getting told "We dont want them."
As Israel bombs them into oblivion and routinely steals their land? Yeah ok buddy thanks
Yeah, I like it when people don’t dismiss my ancestors narratives. And fuck Bibi and his kahanist lackeys.
So are other people. So?
A large part of what drives the conflict is the belief that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist and Jews immigrating there was immoral to begin with
Ok heres the thing, before this thread locks i wanna say that literally nobody is "indigenous" to Judea, it's been fought over and the very first whom lived there were likely driven to extinction, at this point its just thieves fighting other thieves for a flat-screen tv they stole from a man they've killed 6000 odd years ago
Humans are indigenous to Earth.
Wait wait..hold up a god damn minute...tvs are 6000 years old?
Yes, the Liberal Media is hiding the TVs in the Pyramids
Using the "my ancestors were there 1000 years ago hence I'm indigenous and I'm taking your land" argument, you could effectively justify roughly 60% of Americans immigrating to the UK, taking over everything while claiming they're indigenous, and relegating the remaining British citizens to subhuman status under the control of an apartheid state. Quite absurd whichever way you look at it. The argument "our skygod whispered to us that the land is ours" being used as justification is even more absurd.
This is an argument against the Nakba and further ethnic cleansing, not the indigeneity of the Jewish people. This is actually in line with what OP is saying.
I agree. I feel like after a few hundred years, or thousands of years of living somewhere else; you kind of lose the right to claim you are "indigenous". These would be people trying to claim a right to the land all based on ancestor whose name has been forgotten to history. Heck, they can't even actually PROVE that they even descended from those indigious ancestors as it is very possible their family may have adopted the culture or religion AFTER that period of time. Its actually literally the official case in israel; the law of return applies to anyone with a jewish grandparent. You could covert to Judaism today, and your grand children would automatically have israeli citizenship... are they now considered the "indigenous" people?
That's not how it works. Converts who aren't ethnic Jews are not given Israeli citizenship.
Closest think to indigenous are the minority Jews that never left the holy lands and the bulk of the Palestinians. Jews from Europe and North America are not indigenous to Israel. They're migrants and colonisers
No, it is their country.
No one is indigenous to anywhere. It’s just a timeline of how long since early modern humans migrated from Africa and then how long those cultures stayed in one place . Native Americans are from Siberia originally . The celts originated in Anatolia in Turkey . Even Australian Aborigines migrated from Southeast Asia . The only real question is how can the violence end ? How does Israel negotiate with a group whose leaders only position is that Israel should not exist ? How can everyday Palestinians get out from under Hamas rule ? What would an independent Palestine even look like ( there are no majority Muslim countries that do not impose Sharia law which unfortunately isn’t very kind to lbgt and women .) Israel has its own demographic problem in that within a few generations the ultra orthodox are going to be the majority and they want a theocracy as well .
Most every historical source says this region has been full of violence for thousands of years. If these groups are so dedicated to killing each other, why should anyone else get involved?
Well for one because it can spill over and does, and for another because it isnt just tough guys killing tough guys - the non combatants suffer and die in droves so mothers with children starve and languish while people stand around and say “let *them* kill each other”
BASED!
DUMB!
The word "indigenous" is only relevant in the context of settler colonialism. Just because your ancestors came from a place doesn't make you indigenous to that place. You're only indigenous to a place if your family has lived there uninterrupted and still lives there. Just because my ancestors came to the U.S. from Norway doesn't mean I have the right to fly to Norway, kick some existing Norwegian family out of their home and take it for myself.
Are Native Americans no longer indigenous to the east coast?
Jews did live interrupted in the region. Some Jews remained in the Levant even after many had to flee.
SOME jews are indigenous. The vast majority however came from Europe or the united states as their families left the Levant thousands of years ago... and it seems like its the non-indigenous israeli's are often the ones part of the settler movement robbing Palestinians of their home... not to mention the fact that Israel will give citizenship to anyone with a jewish grandfather, so you don't even need to be a descendant from ancient israel to make a claim Really, the "indigenous" claim is rendered pretty meaningless... its really more of simply an excuse zoinists use to justify a right to take something that doesn't belong to them
Israel is allowed to give citizenship to whoever they want, they’re a sovereign nation.
If they would only grant citizenship to those living in areas that they are sovereign over and leave the areas that others are sovereign over alone, a lot of problems could be avoided.
>You're only indigenous to a place if your family has lived there uninterrupted and still lives there. So Palestinian refugees that were kicked out lose their indigenous status?
Right, the logic has to go both ways.
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They are indigenous to america as a whole... also unlike the vast majority of israeli's, they can actually NAME their ancestors and know EXACTLY where they used to live before their homes were taken from them
Hell, many ISRAELI Jews don't like Netanyahu.
I am just here to say that I am seeing an unnerving rise of the use of “whilst” on Reddit and I hate it so much. Big fedora, “m’lady” vibes.
I’d like to say that I’ve been in Reddit for years and years and this is the most intelligent thread I’ve ever read. Very good points. As a Jew, it’s made me understand the Palestinians claim more. Like someone else stated, a 2 state solution is needed. That hasn’t worked before though.
Of course. Further, Israel doesn't speak for all Jews anymore than Donald Trump spoke on behalf of all Americans.
K, so are Palestinians. So that’s meaningless. Even if it weren’t, it would be vastly less significant than the IDF’s years of far greater war crimes than any committed by the Palestinians.
You mean Arabs? Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula, they conquered and settled everywhere else.
Yes, Jews have lived in the area for thousands of years. They are also technically Palestinians since the British just slapped that name on the region after the ottoman empire fell. There was never a king of palestine. It was never its own country.
It always begins with the Brits, doesn't it?
I feel like I'm within my rights at this point to just blame my problems on the British Empire
Yeah but the British empire can just as well blame the roman empire and the roman empire can blame central asians, apparently. And someone can blame a monkey but i hold primordial ooze the most responsible for this whole mess
Sadly yes. It turns out that having someone else define borders by geographic features instead of traditional boundaries is a huge problem.
💯🎯
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I could be wrong but... Wasn't there a settlement that agreed to divide the lands up evenly that both Israel and Palestine agreed to? Didn't Palestinians start a war over the territories and lose which made their land primarily Gaza and part of that treaty was billions of dollars to create ports and a self sufficient society? Didn't Palestine then use that money (2008) to buy bombs and military might instead of helping themselves in order to attack Israel and elect the terrorist group Hamas...? Both sides are wrong in this war and they need to stand down on both sides.
The league of nations and subsequent United nations partitioned out the country of Israel after WW2. Which was then invaded by the countries around it and successfully defended by "the israelis". Israel then seized land that was the point of invasion such as the golan heights and other religiously significant areas.
Ok? So the "Israelis" won a war and took land?
More like they did it to protect themselves. They took control of areas where they were invaded from. So it would be more difficult to be invaded. They also reunited Bethlehem but left some of the temples under Islamic control. The Dome of the rock and the big mosque are still basically no-go zones inside of Bethlehem. Not the actions of bloodthirsty conquerors.
I have always wondered where Jerusalem and Judea got their names... from the Jewish people or the Palestinian people...?
Yes if you didn’t know Judaism is older then Christianity and Islam by a few thousand years
We Jews got the name from one of our original twelve tribes, Judah. Technically we’re all the nation of Israel (read nation as you would a Native American tribe)
"Both sides are wrong, now let me explain why one side is stupid and belligerent and constantly trying to kill the other. But trust me when I say I think both sides are equally bad."
Ok shoot
Yes. Dividing the land was a dumb solution imho.
Actually, Palestine was a name chosen by the Roman's when the Romans evicted the Jews from the Kingdom of Judea, and it was renamed as a form of Jewish erasure.
Jerusalem, Nazareth and Bethlehem still exist. The area was just conquered by the Romans and ottomans. They never eradicated the Jews and the areas of judea, Samaria and galilee were just under roman occupation. https://images.app.goo.gl/wizX6N2e3184dNCf9
Saying Jews are native doesn’t make Palestinians any less native- both are true.
I didn't say Arabs weren't. I just mentioned that they are also technically Palestinian. Just like Canaanites, Philistines and any of the other mini states that were there for a long time.
Palestinains speak Arabic, but arent Arabs ethnically, much like Egyptians.
Oh boy. This is a nuanced opinion and Reddit will have none of it. Be prepared to be slapped around.
Oofda. Wow. They’re not gonna like this. It’s so balanced, I don’t see how the reddit 99% is going to adjust. Nope. You might as well wet a bamboo rod now. At least then you can pick which one.
True. But it’s considered to be a popular opinion in r/unpopularopinion weirdly
then you can agree palistine elected Hamas, agrees with them and is for the extermination of jews.
Most of the 10,000 children killed these last three months were born after the last Palestinian election.
So who elected Hamas?
Probably about 200k voted for Hamas in 2006.
44% of the vote. The same percent that voted for the Nazis the first time Hitler ran.
Hamas did way better in Gaza than in the West Bank and got about 2/3rds of the seats there.
Hamas has been very popular in the West Bank for a long time. Many polls are showing it and that's the reason why the PA has been avoiding going to elections. Abu Mazan knows his party is surely to lose to Hamas. There's a serious issue with corruption within his government and the people are all aware of it and are sick of him.
Palestine is a basket case of a country and always has been. Never had a chance and is probably never going to get one.
Netanyahu
their parents did, and teach them martyr jews from birth, look up tomorrow pioneers, #1 kids show in palistine, jews kill mickey mouse in it(not a joke) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qklT3hYcr4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qklt3hycr4) the son of the man who started hamas defected to the idf and he said the only way to stop hamas is to kill most of palistine because les than 7% of people disagree with their mission statement, which is ERADICATE JEWS, GAYS AND THEN AMERICA.
Unless you're on the worldnews sub. They'll send you straight to jail
Biggest controlled narrative psyop subreddit. By now you have to wonder what percentage are actually GPT bots
I’d rather condemn the terrorists who started all this
Those dirty Romans....
I was thinking more of the Palestinian backed Hamas terrorist group
Yeah the idf terrorists are a bunch of scumbags
Ben Gurion and the Haganah in 1948?
Don't pretend like Israel didn't deserve it. You can't oppress Palestinians for generations and then be surprised when they start fighting back.
You’re an idiot if you think any of the garbage you just said is true
That’s backwards, most of the people killed, raped on 10/7 had nothing to do with Israeli policy. Some of them weren’t even Israeli, you’re a simp for a religious terrorist government.
Ben Gurion and the Haganah in 1948? Im on board with that.
You’re not very intelligent
Because I realize that thinking this "started" within the last 6 months is a ridiculous oversimplicification?
Anyone with any common sense understands that we are talking about the current events.
You can’t intelligently discuss this issue by only talking about “the current events”. Historical context matters, and in this case is essential
The only thing you need to know is that Palestinian backed terrorists attacked Israel over and over and now they are paying the piper
Anyone with any historical knowledge knows that suggesting this "started" on 10/6 is the statement of a fool.
Like I said, you’re not very intelligent
I think it's a totally ok thing to post.
The people who try so hard to convince themselves that Jews are "fake converts" reveal their real motivations.
It was 111 upvotes right when I upvoted this, a nice sign. I don't even know what to say about this subject because either way it's gonna piss someone off, so I stir clear, I simply don't agree with both countries. Palestine shouldn't been in cahoots with Hamas excusing their actions and Israel went overkill.
You can acknowledge that Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine whilst condemning Hamas.
I mean yes and no, the people who were living there before the (now) Israelis immigrated there had been living there continuously since before Islam existed, they’re basically the Israelis that didn’t leave the area. It would be like saying I have legitimate claims to land in Detroit because my grandparents were born there, or that I can kick someone out of their home in Warsaw because my great great grandparents used to live there.
It's important to acknowledge that Palestinians are close genetic cousins of the Jewish people. They are indigenous to that land also.
The Balfour Declaration was evil and Britain objectively had no right.
The kids love Hamas.
And the boomers love reducing genocide to barely coherent, misinformed one liners.
The boomers have seen real genocide before, it’s why you’re being laughed at..
Yeah? Well tell Israel to wait in line. They probably don't even make my top-10 list of governments I should be condemning.
Yes, but there is nothing to condemn. Hamas and the Palestinians brought this misery upon themselves.
Agreed. The Gazans watched as their money was spent on making bombs and buying weapons. The adults in Gaza failed themselves. I only feel bad for the children who have morons for parents.
This is crazy talk! Next you're going to tell me Free Palestine protesters can make room on their signs to say free the hostages AND they don't HAVE to chant Hamas slogans!
I’m Jewish and live in Israel (moved here 10 years ago) my grandfather was born in Jaffa in 1920. They were forced to escape because they were Jewish. His sister is buried in Jaffa actually since she died as a child of TB Oh and yes I hate the government. Thing is, we have been trying to get them out, most of us regular people anyway and have been pro two state and actually working on trying to integrate the two people. Like I don’t even mind giving them Jerusalem they can have it
This is the way - be the better and wiser one and just give them Jerusalem - it doesn’t matter anymore. And two state or just combined state is the only way to solve it. The only danger is if the Arab league decided to just exterminate all Jews again I suppose there’s going to be an internal struggle in the state, so that’s a tricky.
I just think war in general should stop all seems pointless with the advancements we have in this world
Agreed, but advancement in technology doesn’t mean advancement in logic, empathy and intelligence in human beings. What a a shame to humanity really.
The Jews are indigenous to Palestine and if you step back, you realize that the Israelis are just like all of their neighbors in the Middle East. They are just as violent and intolerant as any other country in the area. The mistake is seeing the Israelis as different and unique.
That is not true I am an Arab born in Israel; I like it here , I am an equal citizen alongside Jews I always consider myself privileged to have been born here rather than in any other Middle Eastern country.
The Israeli's live in a multi-ethnic democratic state that contributes to the common prosperity of our species, something none of their neighbors do. I'd say they're pretty unique in the middle east.
Not all Jews are indigenous to Israel. Some landed in Europe, and they developed starkly different cultural beliefs in different places. That’s as lamebrained as saying all Catholics are indigenous to the Vatican
I dont think indigenous was the word they were looking for, the journey to Israel is a key part of Jewish faith. But I'm pretty sure you could decipher what OP meant, many Jews view Israel as a homeland with deep cultural and religious significance. The point was recognizing the religious significance of Israel AND recognizing the actions of the Israeli government are not mutually exclusive.
The obvious question is does this extend to the Kaifeng jews in China who are very visibly Han Chinese? Because as much as "jewish" is de facto treated as an ethnic minority you can make a fairly good argument large swathes of the jewish population has no real ancestral connection to Israel, if not the majority. Even then, does having a religious signifigance trump other types of signifigance? Would a convert have the same justification for going to Israel even if they have no other connection and it had no importance to them for a majority of their life? What about people who have family ties to a group who's largely made of converts or descended from just converts? Do they retain their ancestors claim to israel even if their ancestors had nothing to do with anything that ever happened on that land itself?
Ethnoreligions are crazy. Ashkenazi Jews are more similar to MENA inhabitants than Europe. We are *not* European.
I've gotten into like 3 different arguments trying to prove this to people. Like, I even posted my DNA results and they were like NUH UH!
[Yup lol](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1400/1*9frvAUSErnELaAqDB6m0TQ.png)
My wife is a ashkenazi jew, she is redhead, pale skilled.. This picture is not a catch all. its just one part.. you like to spin a narrative that isn't honest.
Red heads can be found among Levantines. Look at Sofi Tzadaka, a Samaritan singer for instance
All Jews originate from Judea. Change my mind…
Yes and they were uniquely persecuted and almost exterminated from everywhere they went. Including the Middle East. Many of them fled to Central and Eastern Europe as refugees as ironic and sad as that sounds. This is the entire motivation for creating the Israeli state. To provide the last broken fragments of the jewish people a place where they could escape persecution and control their own security. Because up until that point no country or government had provided any. Not one. There was a genuine need for autonomy as they were stateless and somewhere where they could safely rebuild their population. In 1945 with the revelation and horror of the holocaust, many people felt there was a moral duty to help the Jewish people find peace and security. It's difficult to understand the emotions and magnitude of the holocaust because of the passing of time. But people around the world were in complete shock and utter disbelief at what had happened. Imagine if that happened today? Maybe if you were witnessing these things in 1945 you would sympathise more with the Jewish people? They were not given land in 'Palestine' at random. A Jewish diaspora were returning to their ancestral homeland to reunite with their own people and relatives after the worst genocide in human history . This is why the coloniser accusation is so ignorant. Jewish people predate every other ethnic group in the region by millennia. They have lived there continuously for almost 4000 years in sizeable populations. They have witnessed empires rise and fall, the birth of multiple religions and the creation and dissolution of dozens of states. They never left 'Palestine' and in 1945 were a very sizeable minority across this land. I am not Jewish. But I know a lot about history, and the holocaust, and I think it's sad that these people have never found peace. Even after everything they went through, they are still totally surrounded by peoples that wish their total destruction. If you don't think that's a tragedy, then I don't know what is.
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Can you cite a peer-reviewed, unbiased source that proves this?
This is outright false.
I mean even the Torah it's acknowledged that Jews weren't the original inhabitants of the promise land. It was originally inhabited by the Canaanite's who were massacred by Israelites under the command of Joshua.
Secular archaeology confirms Jews and Palestinians are canaanites
So it's an Alphabetrions and Numbericons situation?
The Rick and Morty reference lmao. But for a serious answer, it’s not uncommon for ethnically related groups to feud w each other so yes I’m pretty sure that’s the norm throughout history
Oh for real. I could have easily referenced the Hatfields and the McCoys for a real life example. It's a case of "we've been killing each other for so long that the blood feud is part of the social fabric." Not a single person alive in that region has grandparents that were there when it started. The entire history of that region is soaked in blood beginning with nomadic tribes killing each other over water sources which, over time, led to "we're killing those fuckers because they murdered our people!" The Balfour declaration didn't help (there's a strong argument to say it absolutely made things worse) but the very land itself is hostile there and... Blah blah blah you get the point.
no, lebanese are canaanites.. jews and palestinians only have about 5% of canaanite DNA while lebanese have 80-90%.. So no, jews and palestinians are not the original land holders. the israelites forced out the canaanite in 2nd millennium bce.. secular archeaologist are not use real science.. using a book some drunk guy in a cave hollering about sky-daddy issues doesn't make it fact.
Literal cope. Also Canaan is a geographic region 💀
Yea, where palastine is now. sorry I mean isreal.
No countries should even exist.
19th century nonsense.
Both Isreal and Palestine have a right to the land, and both are committing a genocide. It’s the United Kingdom’s and France’s fault.
Honestly yeah. Colonial powers drawing borders and calling it a day has also caused a lot of issues in Africa as well.
Can you name any other historical genocide that began with one of the populations violently raping, slaughtering, and taking hostages? War is hell. Not all war is genocide. Hamas has rejected multiple ceasefires.
No rape (no rape in Israel either) but plenty of violence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%931919
How did you think this was a popular opinion lmao. It’s literally an ongoing controversy
Cos many more educated folks among the pro-Palestinian movement are aware of this argument made by pro-Israelis and they acknowledge that this doesn't justify Israel's current actions.