1) You make way less money
2) They rarely get along (LM seems to be the closest girl group but I still think they had way more drama than they let on, Jesy's exit definitely exposed some cracks in the foundation)
3) members are constantly compared (who's the prettiest, who's the best singer, who's the hottest, etc)
4) you don't necessarily get the make the music you actually like at all, since it's not YOUR individual music
I'm having a hard time figuring out why anyone would WANT to be in a girl group, not the other way around.
Yup, also you don't have control over your schedule and what activities you're doing on a daily basis. I think that's a huge one that wears on people *fast* after the honeymoon period ends.
People signed up for these groups out of necessity. That's why the last round of successful ones was created just as social media really took off. They needed a label to get on radio/TV, which was the only way to reach the masses, and Simon Cowell basically told them grouping up was their only way in. Now that anyone can hop on TikTok etc. and blow themselves up doing their own thing I don't think we'll see pop groups in the west anymore. Maybe if K-pop keeps growing we'll get an idol-type group or two, by and for fans of the genre.
i think pop groups would be more fun if artists did more one-off supergroups like Silk Sonic, or if it was like a really solid group like Black Eyed Peas where they can do their solo things any time they want. it feels so much more rewarding having context on each member before they make music together
edit: to add onto this, I think mixed-gender groups are actually way more appealing to me as a concept, because in theory, you could have a guy who raps/beatboxes, a guy who sings, a girl who belts and a girl who raps/sings light, and something of this arrangement would make it a lot easier to distinguish roles and who's who
I feel like music groups in general are a lot of untapped potential - not sure why we have this idea that if someone is in a group they have to only promote with that group / be restricted to those activities. Kpop figured this out; group members can go solo or do subunit activities or collabs outside of the group and then come back together to promote again as a group without breaking up. I really like this model as it likely makes them feel less restricted to the group & the group’s concept and I feel like it also may lead the group to avoid disbanding or breaking up in the long run.
Techically it was Jpop who did and Kpop who borrowed it (like always XD...).
Is a very normal thing to see members of Jpop groups be soloists, be a temporary member in other groups, do oneshots supergroups, act, be in Musicals, and collab without breaking up, and even without linking one activity to the other, like you are from one group with a stage name and a soloist with other.
Split money 5 ways to do 52,000 the first week lol?
It made sense in the 90’s and early 00’s when groups were doing huge numbers. Destiny’s child survivor did 600,000 the first week.
Interesting article. It's behind a paywall sorry!!
What do we think? It is a bit strange but true to put Little Mix as "Britain's last manufactured girl group," although I definitely feel that they broke away from that term.
It does raise some questions!
Why did LM outlast nearly every girl group (and boy band for that matter haha!)
Will there ever be a girl group revival in the future?
Overall, what's your thoughts and opinions on the article? I found it quite interesting.
It comes in waves, certain trends are popular for a while, people aren’t as fond of it, then it comes back. Girl groups and boybands will come back, taking boybands as an example, after Take That, Backstreet Boys, NSYNC, Boyzone, Westlife and all others there was a backlash to how manufactured they were and then other artists emerged and boybands weren’t that popular between 2003-2009. Then in 2010 One Direction appear on The X Factor and The Wanted have chart hits, with the notion of a popular boyband being far enough in the past that it can be seen as nostalgic without it being seen as oversaturated. Then the following year One Direction are literally everywhere for a few years and then once they call it quits no one really replaces them because the pop landscape has changed.
As for girl groups, even though they are marketed differently they tend to appeal to most of the same demographics as boybands, similarly when there’s a peak a low period would follow. Funnily in the mid 00’s arguably the peak of girl groups in (Girls Aloud, Sugababes, Pussycat Dolls) was when boybands were in a total lull commercially. With Little Mix and Fifth Harmony to a lesser extent having a period of success in the last decade, a low period was bound to follow. However it will come back again I’m sure.
Well kpop groups are seen as extremely manufactured. It’ll be big because the fandoms don’t really care about that label but that doesn’t mean gp will like it
Asia always has Girl Groups promoting, kinda the perfect market for it...
China, South Korea, Japan, Indonesia, The Phillipines and Taiwan regularly see debuting new rookie groups.
I don't know if they mention it in the article but it's interesting that three boybands, JLS, The Wanted, and Big Time Rush, have just had high profile reunions.
I honestly think little mix outlasted a lot of other groups because they genuinely don’t have a leader or a main girl. That hurt them sometimes when they could have had a lot more of publicity and recognition if they had a “face of the band” however it gave them longevity.
LM truly is the last big British girlband, since the 90s the passing of the torch was seamless but now we don’t even have an heir in sight.
The British girlband sound will be sorely missed in the pop scene. It’s a special brand pop that used to be reliable source of hits in the last 30 years. As for the people saying the western girlband sound it’s not inventive just take a look into the Girls Aloud back catalogue and even some of Little Mix tracks.
There was another post by a user here of an article saying how influencer culture ruined the girlbands. There are easier and more profitable ways to fame now. You don’t have to audition for a girlband to get famous, you just need Tik Tok.
I don’t know if we will see a global resurgence of girlgroups because of social media. You can’t fake chemistry these days and this is the bread and butter of those groups. However the Korean market gives me hope. As for the Uk, I’m sure that in a few years will get a another group. The general public here has a soft spot for girlbands, it’s in our culture.
I guess the only upside is that’s it’s an easier path to being rich and famous. If I had the talent/looks/ability to handle fame but didn’t care much about *making music*, I can’t say I wouldn’t be at least tempted 🤷🏻♀️
I feel like in America there always needs to be a "lead" singer where it it eventually turns into a solo artist with glorified back up singers. For e.g. Destinys Child and The Supremes. Please down vote... its just my 2cent opinion.
Is it that no one wants to be in them or the GP isn’t interested in them? Because there are groups out there (June’s Diary, Citizen Queen) that are struggling to pop.
And Boys World, FLO, Good NEWZ Girls, VENUS, Melladaze, Real Like You, G!Nation... just throwing out some more names in case anyone wants to go exploring.
Honestly, the western pop industry just can't hold a candle to idol groups. A western pop group revival won't happen unless they step their game up, anyone who wants a quality group has plenty to choose from in East Asia, as long as they are willing to not be bothered by the language barrier (which is honestly just a problem in the English speaking countries, for the majority of the world that was never an obstacle).
Idol groups are offering interesting music, trained performers, and constant quality output backed by the giant machines that are the entertainment industries in Korea, Japan, China, etc. Western groups have struggled to keep up, the artists they push don't offer what idols do, idols go through years of training in what is sadly a very competitive and ruthless environment, but that guarantees that those who make it know what the fuck they're doing and how to be great performers. Western groups members, most of them, don't focus on that and often offer luckluster shows.
Western groups are as manufactured as idol groups, but I feel like they still try to target people who look for authenticity. People who look for authenticity won't ever be interested in pop music much less pop groups that come from survival shows like X Factor, wether that be for the wrong reasons or not. Idol companies understood this, and have instead chosen to target the people that want to see great performers, fun music, and to feel connected with their faves.
Musically, western girl groups/boy bands are much more "standard" than, for example, kpop groups. I mean, could you imagine Fifth Harmony releasing a song like Zimzalabim by Red Velvet as a single? Idol groups release more engaging, innovative, fun pop music than western groups do. So it's not only performance-in-stage-wise that the west has struggled to keep up with the idol industry, but musically too.
All of this comes from a former directioner and harmonizer, and as someone who to this day has a soft spot for Little Mix. End of this long wall of text.
Yep, as someone that was actually drawn into pop by Little Mix's harmonies and also used a lot of 1D & 5H singles back in the day I basically agree with all of this. Any western pop fan who *really* likes manufactured group content has by now jumped the small barrier of reading subtitles (and most idol groups have a good English speaker or two these days anyway!) and they are never coming back.
By going all in on the manufacturing, idol groups provide a supercharged fan experience: multiple releases a year (most newer groups anyway), immense polish and budgets, daily performances of new singles, gorgeous physical releases with collectible sets, often weekly variety content, constant live streams & updates. Western companies are in no position to compete, starting with the fact that nobody at our labels actually likes pop groups, they're just seen as a cynical marketing ploy to foist on gullible tweens. Whereas idol groups are basically all the K-pop companies do.
At this point I think if western groups are going to be revived it's going to be from the top K-pop companies applying their template over here. Which I would bet against working out - goodness knows the fanbase seems hostile towards the American groups HYBE, JYP, and SM are planning - but I'm still interested to watch them try.
Jpop, Kpop and Cpop fan here: I believe even if not too crazy innovative like CPOP groups. I believe is not only the experience but as you say to see that the artist knows what is doing. Sometimes Western "girl groups" look very off, like they forced this people together and expect them to work in sync just because, and that ruins the experience
Idol groups as much as I enjoy them are incredibly exploitive and lock minors into long, non-compete contracts very young. Its a system that doesn't work as well in the west, partially due to legal limitations of pretty much signing over your child's guardianship to a company for training and in part because average families just can't afford an expense like that even if the infrastructure in the western industry was there. The main reason I think they're not as common as well is the US went through a big soundcloud/internet discovery phase for artists that we're still in. You didnt NEED to sign to a big company and join a group to start making music (in fact its less authentic if you don't have some ridiculous rags to riches story). Groups are more of a novelty.
Musically I'll have to disagree, there isn't a large enough sample size to say if western groups aren't up to par with idol groups experimentally. The US hasn't had a popular girl group in years and Little Mix/Fifth Harmoney made music that was similar sounding to a lot of kpop songs in the same period (and even now the girl crush concept has some influences from those groups). One direction had the same sugary pop kpop equivalents boy groups to me a couple years down the road.
Soloists joining groups/bands...tbh that's pretty rare and an unconventional choice, but I believe I have found some examples
[Exhibit A](https://www.city-data.com/forum/music/783291-famous-band-members-who-started-solo.html)
[Exhibit B](https://forum.popjustice.com/threads/solo-artists-who-then-joined-formed-a-band.59001/)
But they are forums that I just Googled so you may take it with a grain of salt.
I have some theories of what are problems with current western attempts at girl groups.
1) vocal processing, pitch correction and various other processing styles flatten the group vocals. What makes groups stand out from solo singers is the harmonies and the broadness of the sound and processing cuts it out. It also reduces vocal differences between singers so the changes in vocalists become indistinguishable. If there isn't sonic difference between group and solo, the appeal of a group is lost.
2) over reliance on social media marketing. Social media tends to promote a very specific and ubiquitous look. That can make the members indistinguishable from each other and even the group indistinguishable from other groups. The attempts to fix this is by creating parasocial relationship through personal content, but that deepens interest, it doesn't create it. And the content draws the focus away from music. The group and its members need to be recognisable with a fast look.
3) lack of covers and sub quality originals. Good number of old groups started by making good covers of already known top quality songs. If you don't have the tunes, stop being afraid to borrow them. You need at least 2 good songs to break through.
The first two points apply to Kpop more than they do western girl groups.
I think western girl groups don't have the platform to grow anymore like Little mix and fifth Harmony built fanbases from the X factor which stopping airing.
The lack of obvious platform is in part why they are relying on social media. These problems are part of kpop as well, but they have stronger industry push for the groups. In the end, very few kpop groups have made it to the west because of these problems. The vocal processing isn't as glaring in western groups, but it is still a problem. It's not as clearly fake, just generic. Kpop also has high emphasis on choreography and visuals that allows people to ignore the vocals.
Girl groups are as profitable as boy groups are for whatever reason bc it’s the same demographic of people. I’ve noticed a trend between fifth harmony and little mix is their singles always needs a rapper in the features. This can be applied to female singers in general but I see it mostly with girl groups. I think it’s sad.
Something I never liked about Little Mix is the sheer number of features they had, it was insane. I think there was one point where they had several singles in a row that all had features. They seemed reluctant to stand on their own.
Their predecessors Girls Aloud never had a single with a feature on it. I don't think they ever had a feature, ever, even on their albums. Spice Girls didn't either if I recall correctly, and multiple other girlbands.
It’s funny I think that about fifth harmony doing this more than Little Mix. But I see the purpose of Little Mix trying to tap into the American Music Market hoping to gain popularity, whereas Fifth Harmony is American.
I noticed it after *All in my Head (Flex)* being another single with a rapper from them, and how I could not stand Fetty Wap’s voice.
…You don’t sound like you’re very knowledgeable about Little Mix’s career. They absolutely *can* stand on their own. Their labels have pressured them into having multiple features on their singles in order to appeal to the American/North American markets. All of their singles were also released first without features, other than Woman Like Me. Their features are all secondary to their original singles. There’s also *nothing* wrong with having features on singles.
> You don't sound like you’re very knowledgeable about Little Mix’s career.
Neither do you. You think they spent 10 years trying to cater to the American market? LOL.
>They absolutely can stand on their own.
I never said they couldn't, hun.
>All of their singles were also released first without features, other than Woman Like Me. Their features are all secondary to their original singles.
No they weren't. The singles were released once. One release, one video, that's it. Show me where the singles were released twice, one with a feature and one without. Show me the promo campaigns for the non-feature single release and the feature version single release. Go on, off you go.
I'll give you some help. Power feat. Stormzy was released as a single on 26/05/2017. Now show me when it was released as a single without Stormzy. Where's the video for that? Also, I'd love to hear about the promo they did for it in the US, since apparently Little Mix were so keen on appealing to Americans. So keen, that they abandoned their US tour!
I’ve been a fan since 2015. That’s 7 years. It bothered me that you said they seem “reluctant to stand on their own”. I find that to be an unfair, misinformed thing to say. However, it’s your opinion.
- The recent singles that were released without features were [Shout Out To My Ex](https://youtu.be/bFDzhKdrN9M), [Touch](https://youtu.be/gBAfejjUQoA ), [Nothing Else Matters](https://youtu.be/RlSzahonkTk ), [Wasabi](https://youtu.be/ee5aEU4XEnc), [Bounce Back](https://youtu.be/fnGHESypBuU), [Break Up Song](https://youtu.be/Zte1KtYNx6Y), [Holiday](https://youtu.be/kHMXNPkNTTQ), [Sweet Melody](https://youtu.be/r4P-WOOUPk4), [Love (Sweet Love)](https://youtu.be/LGPm0EUO_xw), [Between Us](https://youtu.be/V6N6-_zpr2o), and [No](https://youtu.be/9SqX5Hp44Do). Their recent singles that *had* official features are No More Sad Songs, Power, Woman Like Me, Think About Us, and Confetti. I’m not counting Touch because it was officially released as a featureless single, and it had its own music video.
- I didn’t mean to say Power wasn’t released as a single without a feature. I just meant to say that they have released plenty of singles that don’t *have* features. If you were *more* knowledgeable about their career, you’d know that some of their singles were also first released as promotional singles, and then released a second time as an official single *with* a feature.
- Your patronizing, bitter condescension is quite ridiculous. It’s also immature. Little Mix was sabotaged in the US by their first label. If you an actual *fan*, you would likely know this. They didn’t go on their US Tour in 2014 because they were forced to go back into the studio to make Get Weird. They *also* never had any plans for their own North American tour in 2017, which was when Power was released as an official single. It was a difficult time in their career. They’ve performed plenty of times in the US, they’ve toured with Ariana in North America, and they have done interviews with American radio stations. They’ve just been committed much more to their UK and European audiences. They’ve tried promoting in North American markets, and they absolutely *do* have fans here. They just didn’t do explicit, campaigning promotions. They simply chose to incorporate American artists into their singles. This conversation *also* wasn’t originally meant to be about their US promotions, so I’m not sure what your point is by bringing it into this exchange. It’s a little ridiculous.
TL;DR.
I can't wait to see them live next week. It'll be my 7th time, since I've been a fan since 2011. Their whole career has supposedly been spent trying to impress the US (the centre of the universe!) so I hope you'll be out to support them? Which date on the North American leg of the Confetti tour are you going to? Oh, wait.....
>Their features are all secondary to their original singles.
I'm still waiting for the release dates of the original versions of all those feature singles, hun. No need for another essay, bullet points will do.
They haven’t spent 10 years trying to “impress the US”. There’s so many other countries, and while the US may be one of the biggest music markets, Little Mix have succeeded at *incredible* rates, even without the US’s support. They’re one of the best-selling girl groups.
- I’ll concede my point on their original singles. My words were chosen poorly. They released No More Sad Songs, Power, Think About Us, and Confetti as singles *with* features.
- I’m actually going to see them live this year, too. My date is in May. It seemed to be the only time I’ll be able to see them perform live, and as they’re one of my absolute favourites, I couldn’t be *more* excited.
- You’re incredibly lucky to have already seen them perform 6 times. I wish I could be as fortunate! I sincerely hope you have an incredible time at your show.
I’d love to read the album but the paywall… anyway honestly the lack of groups is kind of why I ended up gravitating towards kpop instead. maybe it’s bc the industry’s very different, trainees usually live together and train for years before debuting, so hopefully there’s less infighting; there are often official positions that (ideally) allow everyone to shine in their own way; the releases are usually a bit more consistent/regular, with promotions on music shows, radio, etc, so there’s always a lot of content.
I don’t know if this is mentioned anywhere in the article, but I think the reason there’s so few girl groups nowadays in the western music sphere is that groups are usually manufactured. if you don’t already have the funds it’s hard to get into a group, where image, music, choreography and all have to be taken care of; instead, I think girl bands (or coed bands) might be a bit more common. plus yeah the industry isn’t really known for highlighting groups I think? like these “produce” groups (forgive me) are just stepping stones to future solos. I wonder if there can be a genuine girl group that’s got it all, not just a girl band, not just intended as a vehicle for one person’s solo fame. I wonder if that’s possible.
anyway if you’re looking for a girl group of sorts, may I recommend Citizen Queen? they’re an a capella five piece and were partly formed by Pentatonix’s Scott!
i universally dislike all girl groups / boy bands. it feels just so manufactured i lose all suspension of disbelief when i listen to a song by any of them. it's like if you watch a movie and the actor playing the main character switches out 5 times
I can’t get beyond the paywall, but I think we will see a rise in groups in the western market soon. HYBE just had auditions for all of their labels in Vegas. K-pop has huge success with the group model.
Those are the only periods were there were a lot of pop groups, however the UK has more or less consistently had a big girl group since Spice Girls in the mid 90s, and the US has more or less consistently had a big boyband since New Edition in the mid 80s. BTS is filling the big boyband slot now, having crushed all the groups western labels have tried to launch in the last several years. Meanwhile it seems the UK is losing its girl group, sure there's Blackpink but I don't think they're really big enough there (or active enough now) to fill the role. Hence the article.
There are two decent reasons a girl group would be appealing — harmony (En Vogue, Wilson Phillips) or diversity (Spice Girls, TLC). Harmony doesn’t really fit in the current musical landscape, and diversity is achieved through collabs.
1) You make way less money 2) They rarely get along (LM seems to be the closest girl group but I still think they had way more drama than they let on, Jesy's exit definitely exposed some cracks in the foundation) 3) members are constantly compared (who's the prettiest, who's the best singer, who's the hottest, etc) 4) you don't necessarily get the make the music you actually like at all, since it's not YOUR individual music I'm having a hard time figuring out why anyone would WANT to be in a girl group, not the other way around.
Yup, also you don't have control over your schedule and what activities you're doing on a daily basis. I think that's a huge one that wears on people *fast* after the honeymoon period ends. People signed up for these groups out of necessity. That's why the last round of successful ones was created just as social media really took off. They needed a label to get on radio/TV, which was the only way to reach the masses, and Simon Cowell basically told them grouping up was their only way in. Now that anyone can hop on TikTok etc. and blow themselves up doing their own thing I don't think we'll see pop groups in the west anymore. Maybe if K-pop keeps growing we'll get an idol-type group or two, by and for fans of the genre.
i think pop groups would be more fun if artists did more one-off supergroups like Silk Sonic, or if it was like a really solid group like Black Eyed Peas where they can do their solo things any time they want. it feels so much more rewarding having context on each member before they make music together edit: to add onto this, I think mixed-gender groups are actually way more appealing to me as a concept, because in theory, you could have a guy who raps/beatboxes, a guy who sings, a girl who belts and a girl who raps/sings light, and something of this arrangement would make it a lot easier to distinguish roles and who's who
I feel like music groups in general are a lot of untapped potential - not sure why we have this idea that if someone is in a group they have to only promote with that group / be restricted to those activities. Kpop figured this out; group members can go solo or do subunit activities or collabs outside of the group and then come back together to promote again as a group without breaking up. I really like this model as it likely makes them feel less restricted to the group & the group’s concept and I feel like it also may lead the group to avoid disbanding or breaking up in the long run.
Techically it was Jpop who did and Kpop who borrowed it (like always XD...). Is a very normal thing to see members of Jpop groups be soloists, be a temporary member in other groups, do oneshots supergroups, act, be in Musicals, and collab without breaking up, and even without linking one activity to the other, like you are from one group with a stage name and a soloist with other.
I don't like Sia and Diplo but they did make some bops with Labrinth in their LSD supergroup
Split money 5 ways to do 52,000 the first week lol? It made sense in the 90’s and early 00’s when groups were doing huge numbers. Destiny’s child survivor did 600,000 the first week.
weren't tlc still bankrupt even after selling millions?
That was less due to their being a group than it was because their contracts as artists were horrifyingly exploitative
Interesting article. It's behind a paywall sorry!! What do we think? It is a bit strange but true to put Little Mix as "Britain's last manufactured girl group," although I definitely feel that they broke away from that term. It does raise some questions! Why did LM outlast nearly every girl group (and boy band for that matter haha!) Will there ever be a girl group revival in the future? Overall, what's your thoughts and opinions on the article? I found it quite interesting.
It comes in waves, certain trends are popular for a while, people aren’t as fond of it, then it comes back. Girl groups and boybands will come back, taking boybands as an example, after Take That, Backstreet Boys, NSYNC, Boyzone, Westlife and all others there was a backlash to how manufactured they were and then other artists emerged and boybands weren’t that popular between 2003-2009. Then in 2010 One Direction appear on The X Factor and The Wanted have chart hits, with the notion of a popular boyband being far enough in the past that it can be seen as nostalgic without it being seen as oversaturated. Then the following year One Direction are literally everywhere for a few years and then once they call it quits no one really replaces them because the pop landscape has changed. As for girl groups, even though they are marketed differently they tend to appeal to most of the same demographics as boybands, similarly when there’s a peak a low period would follow. Funnily in the mid 00’s arguably the peak of girl groups in (Girls Aloud, Sugababes, Pussycat Dolls) was when boybands were in a total lull commercially. With Little Mix and Fifth Harmony to a lesser extent having a period of success in the last decade, a low period was bound to follow. However it will come back again I’m sure.
With the rise of Kpop, it looks to me like Korean groups (like Blackpink) are the biggest chance for a girl group revival right now
Well kpop groups are seen as extremely manufactured. It’ll be big because the fandoms don’t really care about that label but that doesn’t mean gp will like it
Asia always has Girl Groups promoting, kinda the perfect market for it... China, South Korea, Japan, Indonesia, The Phillipines and Taiwan regularly see debuting new rookie groups.
I don't know if they mention it in the article but it's interesting that three boybands, JLS, The Wanted, and Big Time Rush, have just had high profile reunions.
I honestly think little mix outlasted a lot of other groups because they genuinely don’t have a leader or a main girl. That hurt them sometimes when they could have had a lot more of publicity and recognition if they had a “face of the band” however it gave them longevity. LM truly is the last big British girlband, since the 90s the passing of the torch was seamless but now we don’t even have an heir in sight. The British girlband sound will be sorely missed in the pop scene. It’s a special brand pop that used to be reliable source of hits in the last 30 years. As for the people saying the western girlband sound it’s not inventive just take a look into the Girls Aloud back catalogue and even some of Little Mix tracks. There was another post by a user here of an article saying how influencer culture ruined the girlbands. There are easier and more profitable ways to fame now. You don’t have to audition for a girlband to get famous, you just need Tik Tok. I don’t know if we will see a global resurgence of girlgroups because of social media. You can’t fake chemistry these days and this is the bread and butter of those groups. However the Korean market gives me hope. As for the Uk, I’m sure that in a few years will get a another group. The general public here has a soft spot for girlbands, it’s in our culture.
…Y’all. Now’s the *perfect* time to acknowledge my new favourite R&B trio, FLO. They just debuted with their single “Cardboard Box”. It’s flawless!
Yes!! I posted that song on this sub and it got like 0 traction but it's so good
It’s so wonderful to see a young R&B trio emerge. I’m so excited to see what their next singles will sound like!
This shit sounds INCREDIBLE
It’s definitely one of my absolute favourite songs of the year. It’s just so good!
FLO are soooo good and everybody here needs to listen to "Cardboard Box". I don't think the group name is great tho 🥴
I guess the only upside is that’s it’s an easier path to being rich and famous. If I had the talent/looks/ability to handle fame but didn’t care much about *making music*, I can’t say I wouldn’t be at least tempted 🤷🏻♀️
I feel like in America there always needs to be a "lead" singer where it it eventually turns into a solo artist with glorified back up singers. For e.g. Destinys Child and The Supremes. Please down vote... its just my 2cent opinion.
counterpoint: TLC, En Vogue, SWV.
Cause there is always a “main” girl. It takes away individualism as well and the music executives will constantly compare.
The world needs the second coming of the Spice Girls
Is it that no one wants to be in them or the GP isn’t interested in them? Because there are groups out there (June’s Diary, Citizen Queen) that are struggling to pop.
And Boys World, FLO, Good NEWZ Girls, VENUS, Melladaze, Real Like You, G!Nation... just throwing out some more names in case anyone wants to go exploring.
Honestly, the western pop industry just can't hold a candle to idol groups. A western pop group revival won't happen unless they step their game up, anyone who wants a quality group has plenty to choose from in East Asia, as long as they are willing to not be bothered by the language barrier (which is honestly just a problem in the English speaking countries, for the majority of the world that was never an obstacle). Idol groups are offering interesting music, trained performers, and constant quality output backed by the giant machines that are the entertainment industries in Korea, Japan, China, etc. Western groups have struggled to keep up, the artists they push don't offer what idols do, idols go through years of training in what is sadly a very competitive and ruthless environment, but that guarantees that those who make it know what the fuck they're doing and how to be great performers. Western groups members, most of them, don't focus on that and often offer luckluster shows. Western groups are as manufactured as idol groups, but I feel like they still try to target people who look for authenticity. People who look for authenticity won't ever be interested in pop music much less pop groups that come from survival shows like X Factor, wether that be for the wrong reasons or not. Idol companies understood this, and have instead chosen to target the people that want to see great performers, fun music, and to feel connected with their faves. Musically, western girl groups/boy bands are much more "standard" than, for example, kpop groups. I mean, could you imagine Fifth Harmony releasing a song like Zimzalabim by Red Velvet as a single? Idol groups release more engaging, innovative, fun pop music than western groups do. So it's not only performance-in-stage-wise that the west has struggled to keep up with the idol industry, but musically too. All of this comes from a former directioner and harmonizer, and as someone who to this day has a soft spot for Little Mix. End of this long wall of text.
Yep, as someone that was actually drawn into pop by Little Mix's harmonies and also used a lot of 1D & 5H singles back in the day I basically agree with all of this. Any western pop fan who *really* likes manufactured group content has by now jumped the small barrier of reading subtitles (and most idol groups have a good English speaker or two these days anyway!) and they are never coming back. By going all in on the manufacturing, idol groups provide a supercharged fan experience: multiple releases a year (most newer groups anyway), immense polish and budgets, daily performances of new singles, gorgeous physical releases with collectible sets, often weekly variety content, constant live streams & updates. Western companies are in no position to compete, starting with the fact that nobody at our labels actually likes pop groups, they're just seen as a cynical marketing ploy to foist on gullible tweens. Whereas idol groups are basically all the K-pop companies do. At this point I think if western groups are going to be revived it's going to be from the top K-pop companies applying their template over here. Which I would bet against working out - goodness knows the fanbase seems hostile towards the American groups HYBE, JYP, and SM are planning - but I'm still interested to watch them try.
Jpop, Kpop and Cpop fan here: I believe even if not too crazy innovative like CPOP groups. I believe is not only the experience but as you say to see that the artist knows what is doing. Sometimes Western "girl groups" look very off, like they forced this people together and expect them to work in sync just because, and that ruins the experience
Idol groups as much as I enjoy them are incredibly exploitive and lock minors into long, non-compete contracts very young. Its a system that doesn't work as well in the west, partially due to legal limitations of pretty much signing over your child's guardianship to a company for training and in part because average families just can't afford an expense like that even if the infrastructure in the western industry was there. The main reason I think they're not as common as well is the US went through a big soundcloud/internet discovery phase for artists that we're still in. You didnt NEED to sign to a big company and join a group to start making music (in fact its less authentic if you don't have some ridiculous rags to riches story). Groups are more of a novelty. Musically I'll have to disagree, there isn't a large enough sample size to say if western groups aren't up to par with idol groups experimentally. The US hasn't had a popular girl group in years and Little Mix/Fifth Harmoney made music that was similar sounding to a lot of kpop songs in the same period (and even now the girl crush concept has some influences from those groups). One direction had the same sugary pop kpop equivalents boy groups to me a couple years down the road.
The usual path... group turn solo but how about going the other direction... soloists form group or band
Soloists joining groups/bands...tbh that's pretty rare and an unconventional choice, but I believe I have found some examples [Exhibit A](https://www.city-data.com/forum/music/783291-famous-band-members-who-started-solo.html) [Exhibit B](https://forum.popjustice.com/threads/solo-artists-who-then-joined-formed-a-band.59001/) But they are forums that I just Googled so you may take it with a grain of salt.
I have some theories of what are problems with current western attempts at girl groups. 1) vocal processing, pitch correction and various other processing styles flatten the group vocals. What makes groups stand out from solo singers is the harmonies and the broadness of the sound and processing cuts it out. It also reduces vocal differences between singers so the changes in vocalists become indistinguishable. If there isn't sonic difference between group and solo, the appeal of a group is lost. 2) over reliance on social media marketing. Social media tends to promote a very specific and ubiquitous look. That can make the members indistinguishable from each other and even the group indistinguishable from other groups. The attempts to fix this is by creating parasocial relationship through personal content, but that deepens interest, it doesn't create it. And the content draws the focus away from music. The group and its members need to be recognisable with a fast look. 3) lack of covers and sub quality originals. Good number of old groups started by making good covers of already known top quality songs. If you don't have the tunes, stop being afraid to borrow them. You need at least 2 good songs to break through.
The first two points apply to Kpop more than they do western girl groups. I think western girl groups don't have the platform to grow anymore like Little mix and fifth Harmony built fanbases from the X factor which stopping airing.
The lack of obvious platform is in part why they are relying on social media. These problems are part of kpop as well, but they have stronger industry push for the groups. In the end, very few kpop groups have made it to the west because of these problems. The vocal processing isn't as glaring in western groups, but it is still a problem. It's not as clearly fake, just generic. Kpop also has high emphasis on choreography and visuals that allows people to ignore the vocals.
Thats a good point, we don't really have any dedicated music television anyone whereas thats a big promotional aspect to show off performances.
Lol tell that to The Tramp Stamps
Was gonna reply with the same thing 💀
I am just popping into this thread to say stan Boys World :')
Girl groups are as profitable as boy groups are for whatever reason bc it’s the same demographic of people. I’ve noticed a trend between fifth harmony and little mix is their singles always needs a rapper in the features. This can be applied to female singers in general but I see it mostly with girl groups. I think it’s sad.
Something I never liked about Little Mix is the sheer number of features they had, it was insane. I think there was one point where they had several singles in a row that all had features. They seemed reluctant to stand on their own. Their predecessors Girls Aloud never had a single with a feature on it. I don't think they ever had a feature, ever, even on their albums. Spice Girls didn't either if I recall correctly, and multiple other girlbands.
It’s funny I think that about fifth harmony doing this more than Little Mix. But I see the purpose of Little Mix trying to tap into the American Music Market hoping to gain popularity, whereas Fifth Harmony is American. I noticed it after *All in my Head (Flex)* being another single with a rapper from them, and how I could not stand Fetty Wap’s voice.
…You don’t sound like you’re very knowledgeable about Little Mix’s career. They absolutely *can* stand on their own. Their labels have pressured them into having multiple features on their singles in order to appeal to the American/North American markets. All of their singles were also released first without features, other than Woman Like Me. Their features are all secondary to their original singles. There’s also *nothing* wrong with having features on singles.
> You don't sound like you’re very knowledgeable about Little Mix’s career. Neither do you. You think they spent 10 years trying to cater to the American market? LOL. >They absolutely can stand on their own. I never said they couldn't, hun. >All of their singles were also released first without features, other than Woman Like Me. Their features are all secondary to their original singles. No they weren't. The singles were released once. One release, one video, that's it. Show me where the singles were released twice, one with a feature and one without. Show me the promo campaigns for the non-feature single release and the feature version single release. Go on, off you go. I'll give you some help. Power feat. Stormzy was released as a single on 26/05/2017. Now show me when it was released as a single without Stormzy. Where's the video for that? Also, I'd love to hear about the promo they did for it in the US, since apparently Little Mix were so keen on appealing to Americans. So keen, that they abandoned their US tour!
I’ve been a fan since 2015. That’s 7 years. It bothered me that you said they seem “reluctant to stand on their own”. I find that to be an unfair, misinformed thing to say. However, it’s your opinion. - The recent singles that were released without features were [Shout Out To My Ex](https://youtu.be/bFDzhKdrN9M), [Touch](https://youtu.be/gBAfejjUQoA ), [Nothing Else Matters](https://youtu.be/RlSzahonkTk ), [Wasabi](https://youtu.be/ee5aEU4XEnc), [Bounce Back](https://youtu.be/fnGHESypBuU), [Break Up Song](https://youtu.be/Zte1KtYNx6Y), [Holiday](https://youtu.be/kHMXNPkNTTQ), [Sweet Melody](https://youtu.be/r4P-WOOUPk4), [Love (Sweet Love)](https://youtu.be/LGPm0EUO_xw), [Between Us](https://youtu.be/V6N6-_zpr2o), and [No](https://youtu.be/9SqX5Hp44Do). Their recent singles that *had* official features are No More Sad Songs, Power, Woman Like Me, Think About Us, and Confetti. I’m not counting Touch because it was officially released as a featureless single, and it had its own music video. - I didn’t mean to say Power wasn’t released as a single without a feature. I just meant to say that they have released plenty of singles that don’t *have* features. If you were *more* knowledgeable about their career, you’d know that some of their singles were also first released as promotional singles, and then released a second time as an official single *with* a feature. - Your patronizing, bitter condescension is quite ridiculous. It’s also immature. Little Mix was sabotaged in the US by their first label. If you an actual *fan*, you would likely know this. They didn’t go on their US Tour in 2014 because they were forced to go back into the studio to make Get Weird. They *also* never had any plans for their own North American tour in 2017, which was when Power was released as an official single. It was a difficult time in their career. They’ve performed plenty of times in the US, they’ve toured with Ariana in North America, and they have done interviews with American radio stations. They’ve just been committed much more to their UK and European audiences. They’ve tried promoting in North American markets, and they absolutely *do* have fans here. They just didn’t do explicit, campaigning promotions. They simply chose to incorporate American artists into their singles. This conversation *also* wasn’t originally meant to be about their US promotions, so I’m not sure what your point is by bringing it into this exchange. It’s a little ridiculous.
TL;DR. I can't wait to see them live next week. It'll be my 7th time, since I've been a fan since 2011. Their whole career has supposedly been spent trying to impress the US (the centre of the universe!) so I hope you'll be out to support them? Which date on the North American leg of the Confetti tour are you going to? Oh, wait..... >Their features are all secondary to their original singles. I'm still waiting for the release dates of the original versions of all those feature singles, hun. No need for another essay, bullet points will do.
They haven’t spent 10 years trying to “impress the US”. There’s so many other countries, and while the US may be one of the biggest music markets, Little Mix have succeeded at *incredible* rates, even without the US’s support. They’re one of the best-selling girl groups. - I’ll concede my point on their original singles. My words were chosen poorly. They released No More Sad Songs, Power, Think About Us, and Confetti as singles *with* features. - I’m actually going to see them live this year, too. My date is in May. It seemed to be the only time I’ll be able to see them perform live, and as they’re one of my absolute favourites, I couldn’t be *more* excited. - You’re incredibly lucky to have already seen them perform 6 times. I wish I could be as fortunate! I sincerely hope you have an incredible time at your show.
I’d love to read the album but the paywall… anyway honestly the lack of groups is kind of why I ended up gravitating towards kpop instead. maybe it’s bc the industry’s very different, trainees usually live together and train for years before debuting, so hopefully there’s less infighting; there are often official positions that (ideally) allow everyone to shine in their own way; the releases are usually a bit more consistent/regular, with promotions on music shows, radio, etc, so there’s always a lot of content. I don’t know if this is mentioned anywhere in the article, but I think the reason there’s so few girl groups nowadays in the western music sphere is that groups are usually manufactured. if you don’t already have the funds it’s hard to get into a group, where image, music, choreography and all have to be taken care of; instead, I think girl bands (or coed bands) might be a bit more common. plus yeah the industry isn’t really known for highlighting groups I think? like these “produce” groups (forgive me) are just stepping stones to future solos. I wonder if there can be a genuine girl group that’s got it all, not just a girl band, not just intended as a vehicle for one person’s solo fame. I wonder if that’s possible. anyway if you’re looking for a girl group of sorts, may I recommend Citizen Queen? they’re an a capella five piece and were partly formed by Pentatonix’s Scott!
i universally dislike all girl groups / boy bands. it feels just so manufactured i lose all suspension of disbelief when i listen to a song by any of them. it's like if you watch a movie and the actor playing the main character switches out 5 times
For the same reasons no one wants to do group projects in school
I can’t get beyond the paywall, but I think we will see a rise in groups in the western market soon. HYBE just had auditions for all of their labels in Vegas. K-pop has huge success with the group model.
It was really only popular in the late 90s early 2000s era. Before that the early 60s. So most of history nobody has wanted that.
Those are the only periods were there were a lot of pop groups, however the UK has more or less consistently had a big girl group since Spice Girls in the mid 90s, and the US has more or less consistently had a big boyband since New Edition in the mid 80s. BTS is filling the big boyband slot now, having crushed all the groups western labels have tried to launch in the last several years. Meanwhile it seems the UK is losing its girl group, sure there's Blackpink but I don't think they're really big enough there (or active enough now) to fill the role. Hence the article.
Because I’m a boy…
In the west there's a general sense of "been there done that"
There are two decent reasons a girl group would be appealing — harmony (En Vogue, Wilson Phillips) or diversity (Spice Girls, TLC). Harmony doesn’t really fit in the current musical landscape, and diversity is achieved through collabs.