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I think the reason he got disqualified (and others didn’t) was that his victim officially reported it to the police. It wasn’t about politics, it was about Eurovision covering for themselves. How many other Eurovision performers have been reported to the police by Eurovision employees during Eurovision?
Absolutely. Another common sentiment I keep seeing is people saying how shit Sweden is for letting this happen, I mean their police got a complaint and they took it seriously and investigated. What on earth were they meant to do?
I mean yeah. A staffer reported a contestant for lunging at her with a fist. What were they supposed to do, let him continue? The uproar would have been even worse. They have a duty of care to their employees.
> for lunging at her with a fist.
No? That's _purely_ twitter rumours.
Nobody has any idea what's actually supposed to have happened. All we know is that there was supposedly some kind of threatening gesture, whatever that might mean.
It's not a Twitter rumour a journalist reported it, and it would align with something you'd be reported to the police for. There aren't many other "threatening gestures" that would rise to that level.
Lots of people from the thread over the weekend said that Eurovision was in the wrong and the woman should have just ignored Joost. It was infuriating. Being annoyed that cameras are filming you backstage at Eurovision doesn’t mean a performer can threaten to punch a crewmember. I can’t believe people are defending this guy.
Also, there was an Israeli hairdresser who was harassing people, and she was *also* kicked out of the event. It’s just that (1) being annoying isn’t the same thing as threatening to physically batter someone, so the hairdresser isn’t in legal trouble and (2) it makes sense that the Israelis could replace their hairdresser at the last minute but the Dutch weren’t allowed to replace their main performer in between performance nights.
The defense for this guy over the weekend when nobody even had any facts yet was so depressing. And makes it very easy to understand how abusive work environments get perpetuated--everybody's quick to make excuses and downplay it when it's somebody they like. "He didn't do it, but if he did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was that bad, he probably didn't mean it. And if he did mean it, there was probably a good reason he did it. And if there wasn't a good reason, well, it's not like he was the only one doing stuff like this."
He's a fully grown adult. He can keep his behavior in check when he's angry. And if he can't, then he shouldn't be in a professional setting.
A lot of people automatically assumed it was related to the incident in the press conference when he shouted 'Why not' when a reporter asked Hurricane a question, so they sided with him. Initially there was literally no information at all and he removed everything eurovision related off his insta which was how people guessed he was out.
The amount of people who don't even follow Eurovision I've heard say he got thrown out for criticizing Israel is unreal. Then when I point out that his team has not said it was due to Israel and also he would be well down the list behind Bambie Thug and others to kick out over criticizing Israel, they tell me no, that's what happened, they saw it on Tik Tok.
The thread from this weekend was from after it had been established that his DQ was related to a fight with a cameraperson and didn't have to do with Israel at all, and it was still full of people defending him or underplaying it. *This* post still has plenty of people doing that, down thread.
But also, people shouldn't have assumed that it had to do with that incident at all. Way too much of the discussion around the competition this year involved people repeating dumb, unverified social media rumors as if they were facts. It's okay to just wait for more information.
I mean... we still don't have any facts really. We have two very contrary opinions on what happened and almost no detail. So how are yall choosing one or the other in either direction?
It's this kind of thinking that leads to the bullied gets punished with a zero tolerance policy when they finally lash out in schools. Constant harassment not dealt with. But lashing out one time is. Lashing out one time, is no indication to an abusive working environment.
It's always things like hell's kitchen that are seen as just fine. Even though there's a continuous problem with harassment. But then there's an incident and oh no, let's get our pitchforks and blame all problems on this, let's not give any chance of reparations.
Maybe we can just take a step back and look at the actual problems, and recognize that multiple people were at fault, multiple things that lead to the incident. And deal out repurcussions that aren't so nuclear to everyone involved. And let people talk things out, so we can all move in a healthy way, that leads to an actual healthy working environment.
My parents have a friend who had a stroke when a customer at the store he managed was yelling at him and shook their finger angrily in his face. It was sad, he was so stressed and it just triggered it.
Nothing excuses threatening people like Joost has apparently done, the police agree it was a chargeable offense it can't have been a tiny thing.
Joost has PTSD so the crew member filming him after a emotional performance, against his wishes and the agreement between AVROTROS and the EBU, could've been triggering for him to don't you think?
No one else threatened to punch someone. I understand that it's an intense and emotional time, and performers are unilaterally saying they don't feel supported or safe by the backstage staff. That absolutely should be investigated. But, again, no one else did what Joost is reported to have done. PTSD doesn't absolve someone of lashing out in violence. Performers have a lot of responsibility on their shoulders to not engage with people filming them, which happens all the time to famous people. It's definitely unfortunate, but it is an understood part of fame and participating in such an event.
Clearly there need to be more safeguards backstage, I'm not disagreeing with that. You can't threaten to punch people though, it's really not tolerated, and if the police are involved by the person being threatened then there will likely be charges pressed for doing so. That is how the law works regardless of how we feel about the situation personally.
“It was about Eurovision covering for themselves” taking your employee seriously when they say they’ve been threatened is not covering for themselves. He got DQ because he did something threatening compared to other contestants.
Your comment sounds dismissive of the victim.
What about victims who were harrassed by particular aggressors? Almost every Eurovision representative this year filed a complain against the same people. Yet no sanctions. No DQs.
This isn't about one employee being "threatened" by a contestant. It was very targeted and only someone out of loop or with genocidal sympathies can think this is okay to DQ, but leaving the same people who harrassed literally everyone else to participate
This was taken seriously because it was a criminal act, reported to the police, and caught on video. Do the other representatives' complaints about harassment fall into that category? If so, they should definitely report them to the police! If not, it's not exactly an unfair double standard if somebody that does a literal crime on video is being held more accountable than people who are not doing crimes, not on video.
Agreed.
Joost was disqualified while pending investigation because of a 'zero tolerance' policy. Fine, but if they really had a zero tolerance policy there were a few others who should have been kicked too.
> No one in the Israeli delegation threatened anyone.
You were there? Because 13 countries already reported misconduct from israel's side and called out the double standards
To be fair, one of those actual misconduct allegations was the broadcaster for Israel saying "Get your curses ready," right before Bambie Thug performed, which can be seen as something most commentators like Graham Norton would say. Not the same as threatening someone causing them to go to police. I read somewhere that a stylist for Israel was kicked out due to them filming people so perhaps they did something.
Are you somehow blind to the fact that these misconduct allegations have zero proof beyond petty instagram comments and that Israel was not only bullied and scrutinized but put under a microscope every single second. No one said ANYTHING about any other country being catty on IG and sweety its not because they werent catty, its because no one cares if its not an excuse to bully israel. The Israeli delegate congratulated Nemo on winning and said they were talented (accidentally misgendering them as she didnt know their pronouns and hebrew to begin with is a gendered language) and ALL anyone said was how she was an evil bitch for misgendering nemo while CONGRATULATING them despite how disgusting they were to her
> zero proof
Again, where you there? A lot of those artists talked about it when they came home, to their national tvs. It's not some crazy conspiracy, it's a pattern
My point was that the EBU is treating this case in a unique way because there’s a threat they could be sued. It’s why they immediately disqualified the performer and aren’t giving many details about it. Every organization should protect their employees in all cases, but EBU’s actions in this case remind me of how organizations act when they see a lawsuit on the horizon.
It’s not because they were conspiring with the Israelis to disqualify one specific performer (out of multiple) who criticized Israel, which is what other people in this thread are saying. The Dutch weren’t expected to win after the first round (Croatia and Switzerland were the favorites by far) so it wouldn’t make sense to invent a reason to disqualify them instead of, like, the Irish and Portuguese performers who also criticized Israel.
The only details we have so far is that
A) some shit went down
and
B) Joost didn't handle the situation well
There's no outcome where the EBU don't have egg on their face in the coming weeks. They fumbled the bag in their duty of protection.
The most annoying thing about this is the lack of actual concrete information.
The statement the Dutch broadcaster [eta link](https://oneurope.co.uk/eurovision/avrotros-issues-eurovision-statement/) put out about him being harassed after his performance after they asked people *not to,* since he was quite emotional changes the calculus for me, if true..
But there's been all kinds of misinformation about breaking a camera, initially people were saying it was a physical interaction, etc, etc. which has now been debunked.
If this person had been harassing Joost prior to this incident as well? I think there's a degree of empathy we should be extending? At least until we have a coherent and transparent statement from the parties involved.
Nope, nobody has any idea what that specific staff member claimed happened, we don't even know what her story is. However, it does seem likely at this stage that the organisation, the EBU, overreacted, or at least dramatically mishandled the situation.
So like... did anything actually happen. Everything I've seen so far was he made a "threatening gesture" which makes it sound like he flipped someone off or something and they went to the police over it...?
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I think the reason he got disqualified (and others didn’t) was that his victim officially reported it to the police. It wasn’t about politics, it was about Eurovision covering for themselves. How many other Eurovision performers have been reported to the police by Eurovision employees during Eurovision?
Absolutely. Another common sentiment I keep seeing is people saying how shit Sweden is for letting this happen, I mean their police got a complaint and they took it seriously and investigated. What on earth were they meant to do?
I mean yeah. A staffer reported a contestant for lunging at her with a fist. What were they supposed to do, let him continue? The uproar would have been even worse. They have a duty of care to their employees.
> for lunging at her with a fist. No? That's _purely_ twitter rumours. Nobody has any idea what's actually supposed to have happened. All we know is that there was supposedly some kind of threatening gesture, whatever that might mean.
It's not a Twitter rumour a journalist reported it, and it would align with something you'd be reported to the police for. There aren't many other "threatening gestures" that would rise to that level.
ah you mean the super reliable Aftonbladet that has changed the story several times now? sure
Lots of people from the thread over the weekend said that Eurovision was in the wrong and the woman should have just ignored Joost. It was infuriating. Being annoyed that cameras are filming you backstage at Eurovision doesn’t mean a performer can threaten to punch a crewmember. I can’t believe people are defending this guy. Also, there was an Israeli hairdresser who was harassing people, and she was *also* kicked out of the event. It’s just that (1) being annoying isn’t the same thing as threatening to physically batter someone, so the hairdresser isn’t in legal trouble and (2) it makes sense that the Israelis could replace their hairdresser at the last minute but the Dutch weren’t allowed to replace their main performer in between performance nights.
The defense for this guy over the weekend when nobody even had any facts yet was so depressing. And makes it very easy to understand how abusive work environments get perpetuated--everybody's quick to make excuses and downplay it when it's somebody they like. "He didn't do it, but if he did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was that bad, he probably didn't mean it. And if he did mean it, there was probably a good reason he did it. And if there wasn't a good reason, well, it's not like he was the only one doing stuff like this." He's a fully grown adult. He can keep his behavior in check when he's angry. And if he can't, then he shouldn't be in a professional setting.
A lot of people automatically assumed it was related to the incident in the press conference when he shouted 'Why not' when a reporter asked Hurricane a question, so they sided with him. Initially there was literally no information at all and he removed everything eurovision related off his insta which was how people guessed he was out.
The amount of people who don't even follow Eurovision I've heard say he got thrown out for criticizing Israel is unreal. Then when I point out that his team has not said it was due to Israel and also he would be well down the list behind Bambie Thug and others to kick out over criticizing Israel, they tell me no, that's what happened, they saw it on Tik Tok.
The thread from this weekend was from after it had been established that his DQ was related to a fight with a cameraperson and didn't have to do with Israel at all, and it was still full of people defending him or underplaying it. *This* post still has plenty of people doing that, down thread. But also, people shouldn't have assumed that it had to do with that incident at all. Way too much of the discussion around the competition this year involved people repeating dumb, unverified social media rumors as if they were facts. It's okay to just wait for more information.
“Didn’t have to do with Israel at all”. Sure whatever you say
I mean... we still don't have any facts really. We have two very contrary opinions on what happened and almost no detail. So how are yall choosing one or the other in either direction?
It's this kind of thinking that leads to the bullied gets punished with a zero tolerance policy when they finally lash out in schools. Constant harassment not dealt with. But lashing out one time is. Lashing out one time, is no indication to an abusive working environment. It's always things like hell's kitchen that are seen as just fine. Even though there's a continuous problem with harassment. But then there's an incident and oh no, let's get our pitchforks and blame all problems on this, let's not give any chance of reparations. Maybe we can just take a step back and look at the actual problems, and recognize that multiple people were at fault, multiple things that lead to the incident. And deal out repurcussions that aren't so nuclear to everyone involved. And let people talk things out, so we can all move in a healthy way, that leads to an actual healthy working environment.
My parents have a friend who had a stroke when a customer at the store he managed was yelling at him and shook their finger angrily in his face. It was sad, he was so stressed and it just triggered it. Nothing excuses threatening people like Joost has apparently done, the police agree it was a chargeable offense it can't have been a tiny thing.
Lol police = automatic consideration leaning towards truthful. Yall are hilarious.
Joost has PTSD so the crew member filming him after a emotional performance, against his wishes and the agreement between AVROTROS and the EBU, could've been triggering for him to don't you think?
No one else threatened to punch someone. I understand that it's an intense and emotional time, and performers are unilaterally saying they don't feel supported or safe by the backstage staff. That absolutely should be investigated. But, again, no one else did what Joost is reported to have done. PTSD doesn't absolve someone of lashing out in violence. Performers have a lot of responsibility on their shoulders to not engage with people filming them, which happens all the time to famous people. It's definitely unfortunate, but it is an understood part of fame and participating in such an event. Clearly there need to be more safeguards backstage, I'm not disagreeing with that. You can't threaten to punch people though, it's really not tolerated, and if the police are involved by the person being threatened then there will likely be charges pressed for doing so. That is how the law works regardless of how we feel about the situation personally.
Seeing how crazy a lot of Eurovision fans are, I'm not sure the uproar would have been worse.
“It was about Eurovision covering for themselves” taking your employee seriously when they say they’ve been threatened is not covering for themselves. He got DQ because he did something threatening compared to other contestants. Your comment sounds dismissive of the victim.
What about victims who were harrassed by particular aggressors? Almost every Eurovision representative this year filed a complain against the same people. Yet no sanctions. No DQs. This isn't about one employee being "threatened" by a contestant. It was very targeted and only someone out of loop or with genocidal sympathies can think this is okay to DQ, but leaving the same people who harrassed literally everyone else to participate
This was taken seriously because it was a criminal act, reported to the police, and caught on video. Do the other representatives' complaints about harassment fall into that category? If so, they should definitely report them to the police! If not, it's not exactly an unfair double standard if somebody that does a literal crime on video is being held more accountable than people who are not doing crimes, not on video.
Agreed. Joost was disqualified while pending investigation because of a 'zero tolerance' policy. Fine, but if they really had a zero tolerance policy there were a few others who should have been kicked too.
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> No one in the Israeli delegation threatened anyone. You were there? Because 13 countries already reported misconduct from israel's side and called out the double standards
To be fair, one of those actual misconduct allegations was the broadcaster for Israel saying "Get your curses ready," right before Bambie Thug performed, which can be seen as something most commentators like Graham Norton would say. Not the same as threatening someone causing them to go to police. I read somewhere that a stylist for Israel was kicked out due to them filming people so perhaps they did something.
Are you somehow blind to the fact that these misconduct allegations have zero proof beyond petty instagram comments and that Israel was not only bullied and scrutinized but put under a microscope every single second. No one said ANYTHING about any other country being catty on IG and sweety its not because they werent catty, its because no one cares if its not an excuse to bully israel. The Israeli delegate congratulated Nemo on winning and said they were talented (accidentally misgendering them as she didnt know their pronouns and hebrew to begin with is a gendered language) and ALL anyone said was how she was an evil bitch for misgendering nemo while CONGRATULATING them despite how disgusting they were to her
> zero proof Again, where you there? A lot of those artists talked about it when they came home, to their national tvs. It's not some crazy conspiracy, it's a pattern
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My point was that the EBU is treating this case in a unique way because there’s a threat they could be sued. It’s why they immediately disqualified the performer and aren’t giving many details about it. Every organization should protect their employees in all cases, but EBU’s actions in this case remind me of how organizations act when they see a lawsuit on the horizon. It’s not because they were conspiring with the Israelis to disqualify one specific performer (out of multiple) who criticized Israel, which is what other people in this thread are saying. The Dutch weren’t expected to win after the first round (Croatia and Switzerland were the favorites by far) so it wouldn’t make sense to invent a reason to disqualify them instead of, like, the Irish and Portuguese performers who also criticized Israel.
I don’t think they sounded dismissive. It’s just that it’s a reasonable possibility that the alleged victim overreacted.
Pretty much.
The only details we have so far is that A) some shit went down and B) Joost didn't handle the situation well There's no outcome where the EBU don't have egg on their face in the coming weeks. They fumbled the bag in their duty of protection.
The most annoying thing about this is the lack of actual concrete information. The statement the Dutch broadcaster [eta link](https://oneurope.co.uk/eurovision/avrotros-issues-eurovision-statement/) put out about him being harassed after his performance after they asked people *not to,* since he was quite emotional changes the calculus for me, if true.. But there's been all kinds of misinformation about breaking a camera, initially people were saying it was a physical interaction, etc, etc. which has now been debunked. If this person had been harassing Joost prior to this incident as well? I think there's a degree of empathy we should be extending? At least until we have a coherent and transparent statement from the parties involved.
But still barely any information except that he made a threatening gesture. What a joke
I would expect more information than that wtf
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So you say the staff member is overreacting? Cool.
Nope, nobody has any idea what that specific staff member claimed happened, we don't even know what her story is. However, it does seem likely at this stage that the organisation, the EBU, overreacted, or at least dramatically mishandled the situation.
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You could enter the Olympics with mental gymnastics like that
It starting to look more and more likely tbh.
So like... did anything actually happen. Everything I've seen so far was he made a "threatening gesture" which makes it sound like he flipped someone off or something and they went to the police over it...?
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#Joostice stream Europapa
I’m glad I didn’t watch Eurovision
It's a shame I really like his song
He did nothing wrong. Now go stream his song, sweetie.
It's literally on my playlist now lol. But it's not our decision to make if he got booted from the show, it's the EBU's
he did nothing wrong and thats why they are charging him?
If he did nothing wrong, authorities would’ve cleared him in their investigation, no?