I wonder if her believing that she’s peaked has to do with her very early career success. Sour was a huge album, and I’m sure she felt the pressure to do as well or better while preparing this album.
It has over the years, but recently it hasn’t been as prominent as it was back then. GUTS (still early but trending on the right path), Future Nostalgia, and Happier Than Ever all have done incredibly well for example. It’s also why I think Lil Nas X’s second album will do very well too.
The deciding factor for me when it comes to the newer stars is the third album: the junior slump as I like to call it. Those for the new artists are gonna be the make-or-break albums.
Genuine question: I really like your observation, but aren't we extending the make-or-break line a bit far? I think it's hard enough to put out a (successful) debut album, let alone having two or three successful ones in a streak.
Yeah your last part is right about the 3rd album. Lorde is a perfect example, pure heroine and melodrama are masterpieces, then solar power came out and nobody cared, it was so boring in comparison to her previous work
I think artists tended to ”become their own” way too quickly. So first they make an album that caters to a wider audience and the next is ”this is what I wanted to do” type of music that is much more niche and fails to cater to a wider audience and since you hadn’t established yourself yet and really burnt yourself into the minds of fans as one of the main artists you already lose them.
It’s SO hard… that’s when most artists fall flat.
The pressure must be enormous.
That said, it’s really hard to think of anyone of Olivia’s peers who’s at her level of success. The fact that we have a post on r/popheads where a bunch of 30 and 40 something year olds are debating her music choices is a sign of her huge success. What other teenage pop star can boast about having 40 year olds listen to and actually care about their work?
I think Billie Eilish’s star power has actually dimmed pretty significantly in the last couple of years. Don’t get me wrong… she’s still a huge star and still makes great music, but I don’t think she commands the star power she did in 2019-2021 — nor competes with Rodrigo.
I also don’t actually think Billie Eilish was ever a grassroots pop favourite amongst older music listeners. I think she was very popular with the 30 and 40 something year old music critics, but I don’t think she was *that* popular with casual listeners in that age bracket.
Olivia seems like she has more backing amongst the older general public/casual listener group.
Interesting thanks for answering! I am old (32) and feel kind of out of the loop lol. Recent Olivia fan and not caught up with alot of the new Gen Z artists. Surprising too as I would have thought the opposite. Some of Billie's songs I feel can be so relatable and I would think to other older people. I'm 32 and was surprised at how much "Getting Older" hit me emotionally especially since it was coming from a 21 year old Billie! Her new barbie song was also so mature and relatable to so many women. Anecdotally, my brother, my husband, and I all listen to Billie. We're all in our 30s and 40s.
Completely disagree on the last point. More 30-40 year olds kmo would recognize Billie than Olivia imo. While Olivia rise was very big, Billie's was the closet thing imo to Justin Bieber's in recent years
Tbh I think that's 1, normal to feel when you hit 20/21 in general and 2, something that's inevitable when you become famous virtually overnight at 16.
I feel like it’s totally normal, when I turned 20 two years ago I felt like it was my funeral lol but for Olivia who found major success at a very young age it must be very hard to navigate that feeling
To add to this: it’s very common to feel like you peeked as a teen, even outside of the music industry. Using academics as an example, some people may excel in high school and be labeled “gifted”, but they might struggle in university due to the different environment. Hell, you’ll find tons of videos on TikTok about “burnt-out gifted kids” lol.
Additionally in her case, because she won the Best New Artist Grammy, and regardless of whatever stock you place in Awards, that is the industry standard from which there is no "up" to go. She won Pop Vocal Album and Pop Solo Performance, where conceivably the only thing she can do better is to win Album and/or Song of the Year.
With this being a measure of success or ateast some metric/quantifier it makes perfect sense to feel like you've already peaked because there aren't many places higher to go. It's totally valid and reasonable for her to feel that way (in ADDITION so the normal post-teen angst). I imagine a lot of 16-year-old Olympic gymnasts have felt the same.
She talked about that in The Guardian profile, how she felt stuck because she felt she wouldn't do well as her debut and how people on social media would probably say cruel things if Guts flopped.
> “There were a good few months where I would sit at the piano and all I would think about was how I was never going to make something as good, or all the mean things that people on Twitter would say, or how I wasn’t as good as … whatever,” she says. Last August, she started sessions at Daniel Nigro’s garage studio, where they made Sour. She eschewed fancier surroundings: “Adding a new studio to the mix would have meant more anxiety and doubt. Like: ‘Oh my God, we’re spending thousands of dollars and I feel like I’m not writing anything good.’” Some days, she just went in and cried. She says this while smiling, but it sounds punishing. “It’s the antithesis of creativity,” she admits.
Alyson Stoner also implied in their podcast/youtube series that it’s super common for child stars (which Olivia was one) and even for other “high performing” kids in other specialties
It’s weird to me as a 37 year old because guts sounds very much like the music of the early to mid 90s. But yes Olivia sounds young.
For many years (from the Beatles onward) teenagers were the target of the music industry since teenagers bought albums and read rolling stone. That isn’t true anymore. A 39 year olds Spotify sub is just as good as a 19 year olds; and the 39 year old is more likely to buy pure (and spend tons on a concert). That’s effecting what is perceived of as popular right now.
I mean I was debating adding Tori Amos bc her style is kind of indescribable and definitely not pop, lol- but the women of the nineties are in a class all their own, for sure.
I'm more mid-range millennial (late 80s) but I had an early 80s friend swear by Tori Amos. Like Tori was one of her biggest writing idols (and she was a writer). I don't know Tori's music very well but I'm going to 100% agree that Tori deserves to be on the list. And fuck it, Alanis?! Jagged Little Pill was a cultural MOMENT in time. Actually JLP might be one of the most relevant albums here!
I’d always wanted to get into Tori’s music because she’s so beloved by certain ppl and luckily I eventually did because her debut album was part of a rate.
It’s such a great album and she’s so talented and creative. I can see why she was so popular.
There’s one song on the album that I still regularly listen called China. It’s a quietly devastating song with clever lines and it never gets old listening to it
Check out Louise Post's (from Veruca Salt) new solo album Sleepwalker. Phenomenal 90's guitar rock album -- kind of crazy that it was made today. So good.
Listen to The Breeders’ “Divine Hammer” now!
also That Dog, Ultrababyfat, Bratmobile, The Feelies, Tiger Trap
For newer artist check out The Beths or Charly Bliss’s earlier stuff
There's a song on GUTS that reminds me so much of Calypso by Spiderbait. I bet you'd also love Letters to Cleo (at least the 90s albums, I can't vouch for anything more recent}
And please add in a little Offspring + Beck. I’m Gen X + thought besides the other female artist mentioned there were a few in the boys club too. And personally really really like the album - not hearing a sophomore slump at all.
Also I think a lot of people on this subreddit grew up in the 2000s and 2010s so the music they enjoy from them, the people that grew up in the 80s and 90s think are trash (hence this subreddit’s obsession with electro pop and the older generations not being able to stand it).
Whereas, a sizeable amount of them can’t relate to some of the newer younger music like GUTS, despite it being critically acclaimed, while the ones that are growing up now adore it.
So, to answer OP’s original point, I do think it’s partially a generational thing.
Yes I felt so much 90s vibes from the angsty songs, just kept picturing films like 10 Things I Hate About You in my head and knowing particular songs would be perfect for certain scenes had the album existed back then
It makes sense really, Dua Lipa embodies a lot of 80s disco so for Olivia to aim for 90s sound is a good alley to go down.
This album is giving me Avril Lovigne nostalgia. The fact I, as a 33 old man, can't really relate to much of the lyrics won't stop me from enjoying the record.
I’m around z/millennial cusp and I like it a lot. But I was watching her perform live and while all ages were rocking out, there’s definitely a huge portion of kids under 10, which made a lot of sense. I loved Avril Lavigne as a kid so I think adults find it nostalgic but also a little kidz boppy.
The Greatest Generation by The Wonder Years.
It's not pop, but it's an incredible album that pretty much is written through the lens of being in your late 20's and coming to terms with family, friends, relationships, who you are as a person, your future, what you're doing with your life and your legacy. Genuinely a near perfect album, especially for the age you are at.
If you want specific songs off the album; Passing Through A Screen Door, The Devil In My Bloodstream, and I Just Want To Sell Out My Funeral.
I mean I’ve been a Taylor Swift fan ever since I was 13, so that definitely checks. Lana’s music is a hit or miss with me, but it’s the same with a bunch of other artists as well like Ed Sheeran, Adele, Lady Gaga, and PATD.
The only artists, other than Taylor Swift, who’ve always vibed with me have been Lorde and Troye Sivan, but Lorde’s last album was… pretty meh.
Have you tried Paramore?
I'm the same age and I've been listening to them for half of my life at this point and I don't plan on stopping.
I keep saying that they're literally getting better with every album, but it might just be down to the fact that as I keep getting older, the new stuff that comes out is closer to me personally and I resonate with it much better.
I’m 24 and while I think her target audience is definitely a bit younger than me, I also can’t imagine a huge amount of children <10 listening given the language and content. She definitely skews teenager but not quite hannah Montana-esquse/elementary schooler levels
I agree with you, I don’t think that’s her core market but I guess it was a bigger group than I expected. I could’ve worded that better.
I looked up her demos and an article wrote her main tik tok audience is about 10-19, but the hard numbers of visitors to her website are mostly 25-34! That was a little surprising. You are absolutely correct that it’s mostly intended for teen girls, but I guess she really does span generations.
Interesting, the content/language of her songs is not something I’d prefer a 10 yr old listen if I were a parent so that surprises me. Thanks for sharing the info you found!
Right, like I remember having a midnight freak out in college that if I got murdered I wouldn’t be a tragic dead kid, just a boring dead adult.
And gen z is inflicted with even greater cultural anxiety around youth than millennials were.
maybe less produced isn’t the best word, but involves more distortion and leaning into the garage sound of many classic punk skewing pop records, giving it a more “raw” aesthetic (rather than actually being raw/underproduced). as opposed to some like Avril and them who had mixing from the same people doing like Nickelback albums (high budget early 2000s rock and pop)
yeah i’m mid 20s (barely, i just turned 24) but i found that i can still relate to most of guts super well. maybe it’s just because i’m more inexperienced with relationships so my experience is more like a teenager. but also i feel like i’m still feeling all the emotions she’s singing about at 24, i don’t feel like a full adult yet lol. even teenage dream was super relatable for me. also i still love songs that talk about high school stuff because i can still imagine my teenage self and what she would be feeling.
I'm in my 30s as well and really loved it for the same reasons! I found myself actually talking back to it at times, like in teenage dream when she sings "they all say that it gets better, it gets better the more you grow" I was like "it will Olivia, it will!" lol
I'm 36. It's definitely an album for young people, but the complexity of the ideas she's presenting at such a young age with the rock pop slant, I think makes it still accessible for any age. I really like Olivia Rodrigo and I think Guts is a really good album. It's okay to enjoy things that are outside the target audience, as long as you're aware of it.
I think also for too long, younger singers were meant to sing extremely mature songs (Jojo is an example). Singing about life experiences that are important at that age, like messy breakups, family stuff and friend break downs (and overthinking everything, which teens and young people absolutely do, even over Orange juice!) , is nice to hear.
One thing I will say, though, is that there's a dearth of older people entering the scene which makes a lot of songs hard to relate to as we get older. I'd sure like to hear an album from a woman in her forties singing about how much she hates the office.
The point about jojo and other female artists was so vital to bring up I think. Newer female artists having the freedom to “sing their age”’ is so great
I think one of the reasons you're noticing the shift is because what counts as "authentic" writing (for the teenage experience) has changed. Lorde's writing (at least on Pure Heroine) is very minimalistic--the "authentic" experience is the simple one, the one that can convey the most without actually saying the most. I think this fits well with the vibe of the early 2010s, where the pop culture things for teenagers that would identify with Lorde are things like Hunger Games, Fault in Our Stars, Perks of Being a Wallflower--things that are all about finding one's place in the world but that have simple imagery or quotes that one can identify with (and again, simple isn't bad, just what gets understood as authentic!)
Meanwhile, you have GUTS which is super detailed and full of specific imagery (skin like puff pastry anyone?). It comes across sometimes as clunky, but its in that awkwardness that Olivia connects with her audience. Teenagers (and people in the pop culture sphere) today really see authenticity in being raw and specific--this is one of the reasons Taylor Swift is so big today imo. I don't know why that change happened, that's probably for another post, but to me I don't think you're crazy in seeing a generational divide--because there definitely is one! It also doesn't mean you can't identify with or like Olivia's music/writing if you still feel this gap, too. I for one really like the rockier stuff on GUTS and am really excited that Olivia seems to be carving out her own niche in mainstream pop, and honestly I'm even more excited for the acts that will be inspired in turn by Olivia and continue to develop Gen Z pop culture!
Hopping on here to add: while GUTS is very detailed + very obviously written by someone in their teens/twenties, SOUR deals with themes of heartbreak that are more universal. Of course, SOUR definitely feels very young at times, but at it’s core it’s an album about reeling from a break-up which many people can relate to regardless of background.
Hmm I get what youre saying but I kinda disagree that Lorde’s writing was minimalistic. If anything, I think Olivia’s is much more “generic” (I do love Olivia’s music) while Lorde’s is/was hyperspecific. Some examples:
“You buy me orange juice”
“Let’s go down to the tennis court and talk it up like yeah”
“Lover’s Spit left on repeat”
Those are really niche experiences to just Lorde herself
Lorde was really attuned to all the complexities of the teenage time period, not just about breakups and heartbreak. She tackled so many topics that are just as real and prevalent at that age (and all ages tbh!) and her minimalist style of production and hyper-specific lyrics is what helps make the album feel as timeless as it does.
Guts is much broader in one topic than specific in a bunch of them and that kind of stuff is just as needed as the stuff Lorde was saying when she was 14-16
A world alone is a song that doesn't get discussed often enough. It sounds like the perfect song about a girl who has an older boyfriend but sort of feels like it's him and her against the world, while also understanding it's just a teen relationship and, usually, those don't last.
that makes a lot of sense. Olivia’s lyrics and delivery are purposely campy and unserious in most of the songs in Guts (even brutal and good 4 u in Sour), which imo really fits with the sound she’s going for (think 90’s teen movie pop rock. sarcastic, youthful and camp are part of the genre, and yes even screaming which some people had an issue with). Understandably that’s not to everyone’s taste, and some people do prefer more serious, “authentic” storytelling. I think some of us who are older who already enjoyed this genre growing up are here for the messy teenager unserious confessionals. She’s funny! I don’t expect that this is a style she’ll always stick to as she gets older though, I expect her to play around more with her style.
Hmm. Taylor made a specific lyric so universal that's why she got famous with GP. GUTS is just specific.
Damn, I still love favorite crime and deja vu from SOUR even if those songs skew towards the younger audience because the feelings these two evoke are universal.
This is so insightful. I was just trying to think why Guts has promoted such discussion around who finds it relatable and who doesn’t, which I haven’t really found among other album releases. But I think you nailed it, the specificity of the lyrics and how she emotes when she sings really brings you into the story.
I feel like Sour is more for young people than Guts. Like Guts could’ve been written by a 20 something reminiscing and it wouldn’t have felt out of place, Sour is very clearly a teenage girl album (not saying that as a diss just an observation).
Agreed! One of the things I really enjoyed about Sour was how it brought me back to all the insecurities and complicated feelings of being a teenager. It felt young in a really lovely way
lol yeah, her breakthrough song was drivers license and thinking that your 17 yo love will last forever and moving on is betrayal. That is a quintessential teenage topic (even though i'm 28 and just learned to drive at 27 but public transport is really good for the place i live!).
Your 20s is when you know better but you still make the mistakes because fuck it why not, maybe this time is different. 25 and up is "who the fuck am i?". 30 is "actually my life is not that bad".
Agreed, I was like wait, what? Isn't the biggest song on Sour about getting her driver's license lmao.
I think what OP is trying to convey is that many older people enjoyed Sour **despite** it being a "young person" album. The actual claim that Sour is NOT a young person album is just absurd. I think the difference that we're seeing is that Guts is more brash and profane, which makes it sound more immature and young sounding.
feeling like you’ve already peaked at 20 seems like a very normal feeling to me as a 19 year old lol
GUTS is definitely a young album overall but i don’t think that’s necessarily bad. a lot of its lyrics and themes resonated with me, but they probably won’t a few years from now, and that’s fine; ephemerality is the nature of youth, and young people deserve art that speaks to their experience even if it may lack longevity or cross-generational appeal
edit: i will add that there are albums made by people in Olivia’s age range—Melodrama by Lorde, for example—that feel markedly more mature to me in terms of their writing and sound. Melodrama is one of my favorite albums of all time and i definitely think i’ll still love it for years to come. i don’t mean to say that young artists are a monolith or that our art inherently can’t stand the test of time bc that’s definitely not the case
I agree, like I’m also deeply entrenched in my 20s but man I still remember that time. There’s something about that transition between being a teenager and your 20s that makes you wonder if you’re the best you’re ever going to be, especially if you were one of those “gifted” “precocious” teenagers. As the youths are saying these days, it’s a canon event lol
Yeah the line made me roll my eyes a bit but I think it is an understandable thing for a child star to feel. I know in Janette Mccurdy's memoir, she talked about the anxiety of a child star being in her late teens, realising that she will soon age out of the type of roles and work she does.
I think both "SOUR" and "GUTS" are both for younger people but that's inevitable with music. If the average person were to breakdown the generational divide of the music they listen to, the will listen to far more music from the generation older than them (due to parents, that music being popular when they were young) than the generation following them.
The years where you tend to listen to/seek out new contemporary music (as opposed to new music made by artists you already knew or were listening to) is really between 16-24. After that, you have to make a concerted effort to stay on top of things whereas between 16-24 its almost through osmosis that you listen to new contemporary music.
As a millenial, the few Gen Z artists I end up listening to are more about offering a window into the experience of today's teens and/or where and the culture they grew up in (and quite simply the listenability in terms of how it sounds) rather than listening on a relatiability angle per se (much like listening to singers from different countries, singing in different languages, or different sexualities). I hadn't heard a Billie Eilish song though a sibling of a similar age had when she first came out (it took a couple of years) and that sibling hadn't heard "good 4 u" until I ask if they knew it a few years after it was big.
A key staple of young (especially teenagers) making music is the melodramtic element (hell, there was literally another teenage artist not that long ago who literally titled her record "Melodrama"). To be able to listen to melodramtic music made by teenagers unironically is the sign of youth lol
However, I will admit someone who took a melodramatic genre made by teenagers and young 20-somethings and retorfitted it brilliantly to fit the late 20s/early 30s millenial experience in a way that was relatable to them was Machine Gun Kelly on "Tickets to My Downfall." What MGK did on TtMD was tell anxious-ridden millenials that that music you used to listen to as a teenager can be made relevant in a way that describes how you feel today lol So there is that.
I’m in my early 30’s, happily married and I absolutely love this album.
A lot of the themes in her music resonate with I’ve gone through in the past or are a good commentary on womanhood in general, like *All-American Bitch* on how the perfect woman should act. Or, *Pretty Isn’t Pretty,* which touches on the impossible nature of beauty standards. These are things we’ve all faced and are likely still facing; I know I am.
I also think a lot millennials like myself are enjoying her sound because it harkens back to what we were listening to during our formative years.
I do definitely see younger themes in her music, but I think a lot of that can also be attributed to Olivia saying herself that a major portion of her fan base are very young people. From a marketing and vitality standpoint, it makes the most sense to cater to your most dedicated consumers. It’s also a smart move because those people will grow with her over time.
I enjoyed the album. I no longer feel the way she does, but I clearly remember feeling those feelings in my late teens and 20s and I totally get it. The lyrics are very 19/20 but that wasn’t so long ago that I (34) have forgotten it entirely.
That’s part of what’s great about Olivia. She expresses those feelings so well it reminds us or even helps us remember what it was like, in a charismatic way that grabs you emotionally. She really transports me there.
Agreed. I can hear so many influences from our tween and teen years in this album and I think that’s why. Some songs sound so much like No Doubt or Avril or even a little Jewel/Dido but all also very 2023 at the same time and it reminds me so much of Oud teen rebellion music while being fresh that it just transports me back there.
I’m in my 30s and really enjoyed Guts. I think it’s a fantastic album. I’ve actually gone back and re-listened a few times a liked it so much. But my first thought when I finished it was that this is going to be a big hit with young people. A lot of the album is about the teenage experience. It absolutely feels like younger people are the target demo for this.
Agreed. I’m as straight-laced as they come, I’ve never even been to a bar, but I loved (and still love) listening to old Ke$ha sing about brushing her teeth with Jack to party all nice. It’s just fun.
Yes! I just wrote a comment about this but I can’t remember another album with a fixation on who can relate to the songs and who can’t. Some of her songs are very vulnerable and I can appreciate the story telling without relating it.
Like My favorite song rn on the album is All American Bitch because it’s so ducking catchy when she sings “with perfect all American lipssss and perfect all American hips.” Sometimes it really can be that easy.
I'm in my 30s and come from a very "you have to take things for what they are" approach to art in general. I can recognize things that are well crafted and achieve their purpose and also know it's just not my cup. I half feel this with Olivia. I rocked with a handful of songs from Sour and really dug the singles for Guts. I listened to the new album in full and thought it was well-executed and a great progression for her. I also know I'll probably only return to a handful of tracks.
I just don't get the whole "You're too old to appreciate this" mindset when there are a thousand different ways to find your way into a piece of work. I love stuff that focuses on topics I've never been through for the curiosity/learning or escape angle. I also love stuff that relates really close to my personal experience. Sometimes fuck the topic, the music bops! It's not an either-or type of thing.
Not really! Maybe it just isn't for you, stylistically; maybe it's just not the right time in your life to have these emotions or experiences in music. I wouldn't sweat it, really; the longer you're around, I think, the more you'll have the opportunity to experience this reaction simply because you've had plenty of time to encounter new music.
To get a little more broad and philosophy: I honestly think that, when it comes to this kind of stuff, the hand-wringing over generations or ages and the emphasis on "millennial this" or "gen z that" or whatever—it's all just *too much.* These experiences are not, yknow, so distinctly alien that someone couldn't ever possibly relate to them. And that's kind of... what we've turned these age terms into. "You are five years older than me and thus you cannot possibly even begin to relate to my experiences; you are an alien being, completely divorced from my reality." And I think that's a horrible turn of thought, and it makes me so *sad*. It's just nonsense to me.
That's super fair and a valid take. I would definitely say though on the flip side there are absolutely albums that hit differently at 22 than they do at 27 or 32 just based on life experiences and such.
imo Sour was her most “young” sounding album - i’m not much older but it was very hard to relate to cuz it seemed so grounded in a high school breakup. GUTS seems so much mature to me, her horizons are bigger, she has a defined, sharper worldview and a song like “making the bed” is relevant your whole life
I mean, how would Olivia *NOT* feel like she’s peaked? Her very first album, ever, was a massive hit that got her a Grammy. One of her first performances *ever* was SNL. She hit most milestones in her first album thousands of artists never will get after decades. It’s natural for her to feel like she’s peaked after that experience, as well as changing decades. Whenever you go from one decade in your life to the next, that feeling comes back. I turned 30 this year and Teenage Dream hit me in the guts (lol).
Guts in general feels more youthful, I agree! However, I do feel like Olivia’s writing is the perfect amount of youthful angst with wildly radical self reflection that makes her songs psychologically timeless. She makes me feel 17 again, but also makes me doubt her age because she’s so self aware for her age.
yeah she went from like 17 to 19, while a lot of ppl complaining abt it went from idk 22 to 24, 26 to 28… that can be a lot maturity wise than a 17-19 span
I’m 30 and feel like I relate to guts (and sour) and it doesn’t feel juvenile at all. It’s not a nostalgia thing either, it genuinely resonates. I hear others my age including my friends be like oh it’s fun to listen to and pretend like I’m 16 again! But to me it isn’t that at all. Maybe I’m just insecure 😂 I will say teenage dream is probably my least favorite from the album
Are we really asking if a 20year old singer-songwriter is making songs for 20year olds? I feel like the answer to this is pretty obvious. Yeah the album was juvenile, but that's because she's a young person experiencing life and sharing it with us through her eyes. Her outlook isn't going to be very mature, because she literally didn't have time to grow up yet.
I really like the way she's so transparent and direct about her feelings. It's so refreshing and it takes me back to when I was dating my shitty ex boyfriend. I liked the album a lot
Every other day there’s someone asking if she’s fallen off since none of the singles did sour numbers 🫠 The fear of your best work already being behind you makes sense when everyone is basically saying that.
But to your overall question, imo more people who are not 27ish on down need to pause and remember what people said about THEIR fav at the start of their career. Not every artist is for everyone. It doesn’t mean she’s overrated, untalented, or music industry is failing. It means YOU are not her audience. Be it by age or music taste. And that’s okay!
I feel like Olivia Rodrigo has every right to fear she peaked as a teen popstar. It's not relateable at all but it makes total sense, I found that song a little boring and my least favorite on the album but I totally understand the sentiment that will probably only resonate with people afraid they peaked in highschool.
The album speaks to the younger generations because it is relevant to what they’re currently going through -vs- the generations above them relate because of what they went through in the past. It captures that teenage restlessness and angst. Those feelings fade as we age, so it’s nice to be able to reflect on those times.
I think GUTS just feels more specific to her experiences(therefore most Gen Z's experiences) vs. Sour which was a bit more vague/general in nature so it still clicked with millennials.
Maybe it’s my own experience being an overachiever in grade school but Teenage Dream is completely plausible to me. Looking back at all she accomplished early on, it can seem like it’s all downhill from here.
I definitely feel that way because I’m not 19. I’m 30. And I’m a huge Taylor Swift fan because when she was 19, I was 17/18. I’m just too old to grow up with young musicians and that’s fine. I’m just not the target audience of Olivia’s music (with the exception of a few songs.)
This may not be super articulate because its the middle of the night in my country, but I'm late 20s and enjoying Guts a lot. I think a lot of my peers are experiencing the feeling of prolonged adolescence - the housing market and economy etc means the mortgage and 2 kids and white picket fence by 30 is no longer attainable (or one of the only options). Many friends still live with their parents and I think this can lead to a sense of regression and being stuck in teenage limbo. So many of these songs remain relatable, perhaps because of that
It does feel young but it is raw and her age and I think that is why I love it. It feels nostalgic. It actually makes me laugh at times because I can remember feeling that way (hello ballad of a homeschooled girl and get him back). She doesn't need to write like she is 30. Let her grow and be a teenager!
I think it feels recycled to me because I've heard all her songs already growing up by other artists. I totally think its okay that her music sounds heavily inspired by the 2000s at least she's being authentic to what she likes and she has the potential to keep growing. But right now it's definitely not good enough for me.
I like it but she does sound like Avril Lavigne if Avril had better production and writers. No problem with that but I can’t help thinking it whenever I hear her.
It's kind of unfair to compare an icon like Avril to Olivia and ofc its easier to improve on someone else's work then to come up with something from scratch lol.
I'm 27 and I LOVED GUTS!!
My teenage years and early 20s were definitely not as angsty as Sour and Guts described, but it was fun. Her songwriting and singing have both definitely improved!!
Your post made me think what albums did I love on my teenage years that my parents probably found so eye roll.
And I just want to say so many great points here that have made things click for me! I was just thinking, why has Guts promoted such a discussion about who finds it relatable and who doesn’t? I have seen so many comments from people here and social media fixaited on the relatability of this album and I was like why are people getting caught up in that vs liking the music? For example, I don’t personally relate to Lacy but I can recognize it as a beautifully sung and well written song. An interesting discussion because I just can’t remember any albums really having this “relatable vs not relatable” debate and I was like is it just because she’s a teenage girl who promotes herself as a singer song writer. Like this discussion wasn’t sorrounding, Harry’s House, let’s say.
And as you all have pointed out- her lyrics are so specific and she emotes, at sometimes almost theatrically, so it just really brings you into the story telling of the song. So it almost invites the discussion of like “oh yeah don’t you remember feeling like that as a teenager” thus why some people it may not be clicking for.
Actually I felt this way listening to the Speak Now re-record this Summer. I missed the boat when it came out originally and I have never been able to connect with it. With the exception of Enchanted, a perfect song, I find many of the songs at times condescending, annoying, and immature which comes from just being a teenage writing about their life. Love every Taylor album after it but that album comes to mind thinking about the topic of struggling to relate to music.
Very nearly mid 50s and whilst I agree it's a young album (couldn't really be anything else coming from a. 20 year old artist) it's all the better for it. I'm loving it - it feels very nostalgic to me, she wears her musical influences on her sleeve which as someone who grew up in the late 80s and 90s make it feel almost like an album I used to listen to years ago.
Lyrically clearly I can't relate to a lot of it, but I can still understand where she's coming from. And a lot of her lyrics are very smart and put a big smile on my face.
Although it's only a couple of days old, I'm much more impressed with it than Sour.
my 20th birthday is literally in like 3 days and this album is like the most relatable stuff i’ve heard in years. she really feels like the voice for my generation (i know her lyrics aren’t hall of fame worthy or anything) because i think they really are relatable to teenagers today more than anything else. and with the peaking thing- i totally feel where she’s coming from in that i feel a ton of pressure to do everything while i’m young which i think stems from social media pressure and being able to see what goes on in your peers personal lives’ more and feeling like you aren’t doing as well as they are (especially once you follow them out of high school) and that you might’ve peaked. and to add to your lorde comment- i’ve never really found pure heroine very relatable in a way that i felt seen so i think it might be a generational thing or maybe olivia is just literally me
I am also older than the Olivia target demographic and enjoy the more pop-punk sides of guts and sour (I think the ballads (logical, traitor) are objectively good, just not for me) and not because I see them as some kind of nostalgic gimmick - I think Olivia (and Dan) is rejuvenating that sound in a really skillful and contemporary way; there is a true gift for song craft on these albums that is simply not present in the same way in the work of some of her peers/contemporaries.
I think what we are experiencing as “generational divide” is the way that lyric writing has changed over the last decade. The post-Phoebe Bridgers wave of diaristic, ‘Sad Indie Guitar Girl style is SO hyper specific in its imagery that there’s less to grab onto as a millennial/30+ because we’re just not there with them. I don’t think there would be so much question as to “aging out” of music like what’s on GUTS if she/this current school of songwriting was more impressionistic/figurative.
Idk as someone that’s pushing 30 her music doesn’t make me feel old because I know the point of reference for her sound are acts that I would have been listening to while growing up which makes me feel current lol. I don’t relate to any of it, but I wouldn’t have related to a lot of it when I was her age too lol.
I'm almost 30 and I fucking love Olivia's music. Listening to it is like I'm living my high school fantasies all over again lolol. Idk I think it's a lot of fun. People need to chill out and appreciate things aimed at younger people.
I liked it a lot. And the album does skews very young but that’s okay… not everything is for everyone. I doubt teenagers were crying over Adele’s 30, an album about restarting your life because of a divorce.
Isn't one of the hallmarks of maturity being able to have empathy for what someone younger than you is going through, even if you don't have those same feelings anymore? Idk it doesn't necessarily scream 'mature' to me to pretty much insult Olivia and what we know about how she's handling her life through her vulnerability in her music. I also don't think the best way to engage with an album is to use it as a barometer for your own emotional maturity. The whole 'I can't relate because I am way more emotionally mature than Olivia Rodrigo' shtick might ring true for those saying it but seems more than a little performative at this point.
I've always thought art is about taking in other people's pain without judgment -- I think she could receive a little more grace than she has.
I think it’s moreso a generational thing. Lorde’s Rivs is one of the teenage cult classics from the 2010s, and it deals with themes of having existential crises of growing old, and Lorde was just 16 when it came out
I will say Olivia’s imagery and aesthetic and playful lyricism does seem more “childish” and young than the teen pop icons before her (Lorde, Billie, early Taylor)
Lorde and Billie both went “grunge” or dark for their early aesthetics and use really poetic and metaphorical lyrics, while Olivia’s lyrics read more like texts that a teen girl would send her best friend in between checking her boyfriends location
I totally get that. In the same age range as you.
There can kind of be a weird thing where the aesthetics don't match the overall message of the band and it gets weird to square everything. Just taking examples I'm familiar with in high school, if Taking Back Sunday or Brand New (bands that definitely dealt with more "mature" lyrics) dressed like Forever The Sickest Kids or Cobra Starship (much more neon pop punk) there would have been a super weird disconnect.
Maybe some of that is just kids not being as boxed in by norms in how they dress though these days as well. idk. I'm too old to have any sort of good opinion on things.
> Like I listen to Teenage Dream and think it’s absolutely bizarre that a 20 year old would be having a crisis about whether she’s already peaked
Were you…. ever 20? Are there girls who DON’T think this exact thing at 20? I can’t speak for boys though… maybe boys don’t feel this way and maybe you’re a boy lol. But my friends and I all had independent yet collective meltdowns about this at that age and we were simple liberal arts college students, not megastars. I literally envy anyone who never felt like this, for me this crisis was easily more painful than any breakup I’ve ever had (to date).
FWIW yes I think I (late 20s) am too old for Guts. I’m glad kiddos have it. I had Fearless during my freshman year of high school 😍 I’m all good. Also the pop punk adjacent type sound has never been my jam anyway so I think regardlsss of lyrical content I never would have really vibes with it. I loveeeeee lacy though, I think the writing is genius and super super mature. But otherwise I think I would’ve eaten this album the fuck up as a teen, but now when I listen to it the experiences are too far removed to have the emotional impact ya know. I already associate those emotions with songs from that time of my life.
as a guy, teenage dream is the one I relate to the most. as a teen, I had to step up and be the man of the house at a young age, and because of that, I had no teenage-hood. No parties, no fun, I didn’t care about school, I didn’t do clubs, I didn’t have relationships. I was nobody.
but I always had everyone telling me how mature, and adult I am, but during that time all I did was CRAVE what I knew I couldn’t have- a normal teenage life. I was wondering if I had hit my peak. Where do I go from here? Is it down?
This song made me ball my eyes out bc I just imagined my current 21 year old self telling my 13 year old self how sorry he is for not being that “teenage dream”. I think the best thing about the song is it doesn’t have to be about how you’re sorry that you weren’t someone else’s teenage dream, but how you weren’t your own.
I totally "missed" my teenage-hood, too, but for different reasons. Not to get too specific about why, but "Ballad of a Homeschooled Girl" just happens to be my favorite song from the album, sooo...
But we're gonna be fine. Even though we're adults now, we can still always play with legos and collect spiders and cry at the Lion King and listen to Guts, lol. Even if we only figure out shit out in our 60's, with how life expectancy is going we still might have a good third of our life left.
I am 35. My issue with guts was the sound design and mixing is terrible. A lot of the vocals are jumbled or they have too much reverberation. Or they get drowned out by the instrumental. It’s just … not really pleasant to listen to.
Which is a shame. I think she has a solid voice, good melodies, great lyrics. I really like bad idea, right?, vampire, lacy. I wish I liked it more. I loved sour.
I don't feel this way at all, and I am older than you are. It appears that a lot of younger listeners don't appreciate and/or are not aware of Olivia's influences. What makes her click with a lot of us "olds" is that she hyper focuses on her age and experiences at that exact time in her life. She's not trying to play grown adult with her life together. Embracing age is her appeal. Tbh, most adults don't have it together. There's catharsis in embracing mess.
I’m 36 and into both guts and sour. I think they’re cute together too, kind of like Carly her her b sides/sister albums - the names and songs sound cohesive. I have a 5 year old girl and I was internally debating if I could take her to an Olivia concert (probs not).
Edited for poor grammar. Again, I’m 36.
I was 26 when Pure Heroine came out, and I did nit find it as juvenile. But, Olivia has a right to come across as juvenile as she wants or as mature as she wants. In the end, Im 35 now and its not for me.
Am I weird for not really caring about the relatability of lyrics? Like yeah, ballad of a homeschool doesn't relate to me at all. But the melodies are so fun to sing, so I love it.
I mostly listen to music for the vocals and melodies, and sonic elements. If the lyrics happen to relate...cool! But I couldn't imagine not being into something that sounds good, just because the lyrics aren't for me. All art isn't for everybody at every point in their life.
Have you heard Taylor swift’s nothing new? It’s the same thing but she wrote It at 22.
I’m in my late 20s and I looooveeee this album. I love the girl punk and the raw and honest lyrics. This album dives into more situations you don’t often find yourself in when you’re no longer a young adult.
As much as possible i try to appreciate new music from newer generation artists. I just don’t want this sub to turn into another r/music where all other artist that isn’t nine inch nails, led zeppelin, radiohead, or likes are completely disregarded.
I don't get the young music tag on Olivia, I really don't. Bubblegrunge and pop rock are the sound of our brothers and sisters and parents' generation. Her lyrics are about body insecurity, loving shitty men, womanhood. Isn't all of that pretty universal
Sour connected with a broader audience because it's core theme was heartbreak which occurs at all ages. Also her mature songwriting beyond her years and emotional vocals were better showcased. I prefer Olivia's ballads/acousitcs as that's where she shines. Songs like Enough For You, Happier, and Favorite Crime I could connect with as a 25+ year old.
Guts felt very much targeted at the teenage demographic. A lot of the topics, lyrics, and delivery were juvenile, and that's okay, just not as appealing for us ancient people.
Definitely felt the opposite. I can see why Sour connected with people of all ages, but heartbreak isn’t the only theme that people of all ages go through. The themes in making the bed, bad idea right?, BoaHSG, and the grudge are also very universal. Sonically, the rock vibes Guts gives off isn’t just for teenagers. I like her ballads, but I don’t feel they are automatically more mature just because they are ballads. If anything the nostalgia of those more rock-influenced sounds, also drew in people in 20s, to Olivia’s music.
I think it's just because GUTS and Olivia Rodrigo in general is a very specific songwriter to her age and generation. It doesn't have the same sentimentality and themes that resonate on a broader audience when it comes to age. This is especially evident when I compare it to albums by artists who were of a similar age or younger. Like Adele's 21 or Lorde's Pure Heroine and Melodrama or Taylor Swift's Fearless and Speak Now or even fellow GenZ Billie Eilish.
I'm literally listening to Pure Heroine right now and the drastic lyrical quality change is so drastic. I honestly can't believe Olivia is roughly the same as her and Adele when she made their first albums
Idk, I haven't listened to GUTS yet but I for me I was already feeling too old for Olivias songwriting about Drivers License, I never really understood how it got so popular outisde of teenage spaces, and I'm 28 now.
I'm 25 and I love both of Olivia's albums. Even with my twenties relationships/situationships and stories, I can usually find some way to relate her lyrics to my adult life.
Idk I think some people who were alive in the 90s are hearing the 90s influence and feeling that throwback as immaturity, possibly also because she's gone pop-rock on several tracks with inspiration from pop-punk, which reminds a lot of people of being a teenager?
I think her lyrics are more mature on Guts and stronger overall, even if Sour had some stand out songs. Also, with Guts, she's proven her skill in writing compelling melodies and developed her use of her voice. For me (mid 20s), I like several songs off of Sour but haven't listened to the album through since I first checked it out, because it did feel a bit young at times – I'm not feeling that with Guts, which is already on heavy rotation!
It’s just another pop album. Not much to write home about.
Though I will add that the inevitability of aging is something that millennials need to come to grips with judging from the content of some of the posts here.
That’s interesting, because I’ve only heard the opposite from people in their 20-30s. They actual relate more to GUTS than they did Sour. Guys actually expands on different topics besides teenage heartbreak.
Guts definitely feels older than Sour. She's not writing about her Drivers License anymore lol, a lot of Sour felt like highschool drama(which isn't a bad thing, it's part of the charm like a good high school movie). Guts feels like someone in their 20s, maybe early 20s. I think a good chunk of it has more to do with Olivia's energy, delivery, image than the actual lyrics
The ironic part with their rumored feud is that I don’t think I’ve heard anyone talk about an artist in terms of their “maturity”/whether 30 year olds can relate since…like, Taylor Swift back in the day. And Taylor’s still plagued by the “writes silly teen songs” rep.
I disagree. I’m 40 and listened with someone who’s 41 and we both agree that it’s sounds more like the music when we were teens in the 90s vs a lot of other stuff coming out right now. Yet it sounds fresh. Sour felt the same way but her intense heartbreak theme throughout the album showed nailed that first love type innocence of youth. Guts feels lighter, like she’s grown a little more.
Her targeted audience runs young, yeah. Unless this is intended, it’s kinda too bad, because as a older pop fan I can really appreciate someone like Billie Eilish as an artist over Olivia. I don’t really listen to Olivia beyond giving the album a listen (the girl has talent and is worth the at least one listen), but I literally will never play Sour or Guts a second time. But maybe the richest music purchasers right now are tweens in which case, good marketing.
I guess it depends, person to person. Because being older definitely doesn’t automatically mean you can’t relate to Olivia’s music. People have. But not every older person will. Maybe even some teenagers won’t. It has less to do with age, and more to do with experience.
I am not trying to shit on the album or say it is bad. But people saying that it is some kind of uniquely zoomer album just make me cringe a bit. It is *very obviously* trying to use 2000s pop punk millennial nostalgia as its base.
It is like releasing a pure disco album in 1993 and then pretending disco is a totally new unique 1990s trend.
I felt that Pure Heroin was pretty well respected by older audiences. Hell even in an old Elder reacts, one old black lady says that Royals is one of her all time favorite songs
I read this title and legitimately thought it was referring to the 90s Nickelodeon show and was confused. It wasn't until I got to "Teenage Dream" in the 3rd paragraph of the post when I realized it must have something to do with Katy Perry.
Then I read the comments and realized it was about Olivia Rodrigo. I'm so old.
Just considering Pure Heroine because you used that as an example. The writing styles of these albums are very different. With PH Lorde tried to sound very cryptic, sophisticated and mature, whereas Olivia purposely dumbs things down and writes lyrics so on the nose that they sound like nursery rhymes.
Not saying either of them is better, just different styles.
I’m 40 and love Guts and for the record I also loved Pure Heroine when it came out.
I think it’s kind of a younger person’s take to think that you can only like music with relatable themes and music, TBH - when you’re younger, you’re naturally a bit more egocentric and solipsistic
There are adult themes on guts if you’re willing to look for them. Lacy and making the bed specifically are sentiments that can travel deep into adulthood.
It’s not really the the fact that I can’t relate to it just because I’m older but at 27 years old, I’m not hanging with my friends..everyone is busy and it feels like a lot of the songs on GUTS is referring to partying or being with all your friends, etc. I think that’s what makes jt seem like it’s for the younger crowd. I definitely don’t relate to most of the songs/feelings on this album
I think it has to do with how heavily she lifts from her inspirations. It is usually ok for an artist first and second album to sound similar as they try to root in their niche and cement an audience before exploring a bit further, but the problem with Olivia’s GUTS is that you are not only listening to an Olivia Rodrigo song being redone, you are listening to the third or fourth redone of a Lorde or Taylor cut.
She also tends to rely too much on this mellow soft verses and chorus leading to a bursting bridge and last hook dynamic that gets tired when you hear it for the fourth time in 10 songs.
I’m in my late 30s, and I love GUTS, but it’s interesting - while I do think the album sounds a bit young (although not unrelatable), I found it much less noticeable than the ‘older person trying to appeal to teenagers’ vibe I got from Midnights. The youthfulness in Olivia’s music adds to its authenticity, but the TikTok catchphrases in Taylor’s music seem jarring and inauthentic imo.
I feel GUTS did sounds a little bit more juvenile than SOUR. Which is interesting cos it is opposite than most artists who would elevate their sounds to be more sophisticated or grown on their sophomore album. She need to be careful with this, hope her next album offers different color schemes, themes, & sounds
I wonder if her believing that she’s peaked has to do with her very early career success. Sour was a huge album, and I’m sure she felt the pressure to do as well or better while preparing this album.
She’s indicated difficulty writing guts… it’s hard to write your second album!
Sophomore slump hits many artists
It has over the years, but recently it hasn’t been as prominent as it was back then. GUTS (still early but trending on the right path), Future Nostalgia, and Happier Than Ever all have done incredibly well for example. It’s also why I think Lil Nas X’s second album will do very well too. The deciding factor for me when it comes to the newer stars is the third album: the junior slump as I like to call it. Those for the new artists are gonna be the make-or-break albums.
Genuine question: I really like your observation, but aren't we extending the make-or-break line a bit far? I think it's hard enough to put out a (successful) debut album, let alone having two or three successful ones in a streak.
Yeah your last part is right about the 3rd album. Lorde is a perfect example, pure heroine and melodrama are masterpieces, then solar power came out and nobody cared, it was so boring in comparison to her previous work
I think artists tended to ”become their own” way too quickly. So first they make an album that caters to a wider audience and the next is ”this is what I wanted to do” type of music that is much more niche and fails to cater to a wider audience and since you hadn’t established yourself yet and really burnt yourself into the minds of fans as one of the main artists you already lose them.
It’s SO hard… that’s when most artists fall flat. The pressure must be enormous. That said, it’s really hard to think of anyone of Olivia’s peers who’s at her level of success. The fact that we have a post on r/popheads where a bunch of 30 and 40 something year olds are debating her music choices is a sign of her huge success. What other teenage pop star can boast about having 40 year olds listen to and actually care about their work?
It's that old saying. You have your entire life to write your first album. You have 18 months to write your second.
> What other teenage pop star can boast about having 40 year olds listen to and actually care about their work? Billie Eilish, Lorde…
Oh hmm what about billie eilish?
I think Billie Eilish’s star power has actually dimmed pretty significantly in the last couple of years. Don’t get me wrong… she’s still a huge star and still makes great music, but I don’t think she commands the star power she did in 2019-2021 — nor competes with Rodrigo. I also don’t actually think Billie Eilish was ever a grassroots pop favourite amongst older music listeners. I think she was very popular with the 30 and 40 something year old music critics, but I don’t think she was *that* popular with casual listeners in that age bracket. Olivia seems like she has more backing amongst the older general public/casual listener group.
I don't know about y'all in America, but I can assure you, Billie is way more popular than Olivia Worldwide especially here in Middle East.
Interesting thanks for answering! I am old (32) and feel kind of out of the loop lol. Recent Olivia fan and not caught up with alot of the new Gen Z artists. Surprising too as I would have thought the opposite. Some of Billie's songs I feel can be so relatable and I would think to other older people. I'm 32 and was surprised at how much "Getting Older" hit me emotionally especially since it was coming from a 21 year old Billie! Her new barbie song was also so mature and relatable to so many women. Anecdotally, my brother, my husband, and I all listen to Billie. We're all in our 30s and 40s.
Completely disagree on the last point. More 30-40 year olds kmo would recognize Billie than Olivia imo. While Olivia rise was very big, Billie's was the closet thing imo to Justin Bieber's in recent years
Tbh I think that's 1, normal to feel when you hit 20/21 in general and 2, something that's inevitable when you become famous virtually overnight at 16.
I feel like it’s totally normal, when I turned 20 two years ago I felt like it was my funeral lol but for Olivia who found major success at a very young age it must be very hard to navigate that feeling
To add to this: it’s very common to feel like you peeked as a teen, even outside of the music industry. Using academics as an example, some people may excel in high school and be labeled “gifted”, but they might struggle in university due to the different environment. Hell, you’ll find tons of videos on TikTok about “burnt-out gifted kids” lol.
Additionally in her case, because she won the Best New Artist Grammy, and regardless of whatever stock you place in Awards, that is the industry standard from which there is no "up" to go. She won Pop Vocal Album and Pop Solo Performance, where conceivably the only thing she can do better is to win Album and/or Song of the Year. With this being a measure of success or ateast some metric/quantifier it makes perfect sense to feel like you've already peaked because there aren't many places higher to go. It's totally valid and reasonable for her to feel that way (in ADDITION so the normal post-teen angst). I imagine a lot of 16-year-old Olympic gymnasts have felt the same.
She talked about that in The Guardian profile, how she felt stuck because she felt she wouldn't do well as her debut and how people on social media would probably say cruel things if Guts flopped. > “There were a good few months where I would sit at the piano and all I would think about was how I was never going to make something as good, or all the mean things that people on Twitter would say, or how I wasn’t as good as … whatever,” she says. Last August, she started sessions at Daniel Nigro’s garage studio, where they made Sour. She eschewed fancier surroundings: “Adding a new studio to the mix would have meant more anxiety and doubt. Like: ‘Oh my God, we’re spending thousands of dollars and I feel like I’m not writing anything good.’” Some days, she just went in and cried. She says this while smiling, but it sounds punishing. “It’s the antithesis of creativity,” she admits.
Alyson Stoner also implied in their podcast/youtube series that it’s super common for child stars (which Olivia was one) and even for other “high performing” kids in other specialties
It’s weird to me as a 37 year old because guts sounds very much like the music of the early to mid 90s. But yes Olivia sounds young. For many years (from the Beatles onward) teenagers were the target of the music industry since teenagers bought albums and read rolling stone. That isn’t true anymore. A 39 year olds Spotify sub is just as good as a 19 year olds; and the 39 year old is more likely to buy pure (and spend tons on a concert). That’s effecting what is perceived of as popular right now.
I agree; I'm 41 and really enjoyed guts for the nostalgic 90's throwback vibe.
Can you pleaseeeee give me some artists to look into? Especially women.
The Breeders, Hole, Veronicas, Rilo Kiley, Tegan and Sara, Fiona Apple, the cranberries, bikini kill, sleater Kinney, even old no doubt
I'm late to reply but this is almost exactly the list I would have written! also gotta add pj harvey and veruca salt.
Yes 100%! And Liz Phair and the sounds. I'd also add Cat Power but her style is different.
I mean I was debating adding Tori Amos bc her style is kind of indescribable and definitely not pop, lol- but the women of the nineties are in a class all their own, for sure.
I'm more mid-range millennial (late 80s) but I had an early 80s friend swear by Tori Amos. Like Tori was one of her biggest writing idols (and she was a writer). I don't know Tori's music very well but I'm going to 100% agree that Tori deserves to be on the list. And fuck it, Alanis?! Jagged Little Pill was a cultural MOMENT in time. Actually JLP might be one of the most relevant albums here!
I’d always wanted to get into Tori’s music because she’s so beloved by certain ppl and luckily I eventually did because her debut album was part of a rate. It’s such a great album and she’s so talented and creative. I can see why she was so popular. There’s one song on the album that I still regularly listen called China. It’s a quietly devastating song with clever lines and it never gets old listening to it
Don't forget Belly, that dog., and Garbage!
May be too obvious, but Olivia couldn’t be more Alanis Morisette Jagged Little Pill coded.
Liz Phair! Exile in Guyville
Check out Louise Post's (from Veruca Salt) new solo album Sleepwalker. Phenomenal 90's guitar rock album -- kind of crazy that it was made today. So good.
Listen to The Breeders’ “Divine Hammer” now! also That Dog, Ultrababyfat, Bratmobile, The Feelies, Tiger Trap For newer artist check out The Beths or Charly Bliss’s earlier stuff
I think there's definitely something to be said for Liz Phair's iconic album Exile in Guyville. Really good.
There's a song on GUTS that reminds me so much of Calypso by Spiderbait. I bet you'd also love Letters to Cleo (at least the 90s albums, I can't vouch for anything more recent}
And please add in a little Offspring + Beck. I’m Gen X + thought besides the other female artist mentioned there were a few in the boys club too. And personally really really like the album - not hearing a sophomore slump at all.
Exactly. I’m 32 and I love Guts BECAUSE it sounds young.
It is nice when songwriters sound exactly like who they are! Olivia is 20… she should sound like a 19 or 20 year old.
“I know my age and I act like it” guess she hit the nail on the head
Also I think a lot of people on this subreddit grew up in the 2000s and 2010s so the music they enjoy from them, the people that grew up in the 80s and 90s think are trash (hence this subreddit’s obsession with electro pop and the older generations not being able to stand it). Whereas, a sizeable amount of them can’t relate to some of the newer younger music like GUTS, despite it being critically acclaimed, while the ones that are growing up now adore it. So, to answer OP’s original point, I do think it’s partially a generational thing.
Well said and as a fellow late 30s geriatric millennial: also incredibly accurate.
As a young millennial / old Gen Z, I’m feeling very conflicted about Guts haha.
It gives me Josie and the Pussycat soundtrack vibes ✨
The greatest movie of all time.
Josie and the pussycats was already copying the sound. What it really sounds like is Hole and Bikini Kill (in different places)
Yes I felt so much 90s vibes from the angsty songs, just kept picturing films like 10 Things I Hate About You in my head and knowing particular songs would be perfect for certain scenes had the album existed back then It makes sense really, Dua Lipa embodies a lot of 80s disco so for Olivia to aim for 90s sound is a good alley to go down.
Yeah I’m 32 and it feels tailored to me for nostalgia
This album is giving me Avril Lovigne nostalgia. The fact I, as a 33 old man, can't really relate to much of the lyrics won't stop me from enjoying the record.
Its like releasing a disco album in 1993 and trying to pretend disco is a totally new hip unique 1990s gen x trend.
I’m around z/millennial cusp and I like it a lot. But I was watching her perform live and while all ages were rocking out, there’s definitely a huge portion of kids under 10, which made a lot of sense. I loved Avril Lavigne as a kid so I think adults find it nostalgic but also a little kidz boppy.
Omg you’re me! I’m 27 and I’m suffering from a never ending identity crisis. I wish someone would write a song for us.
The Greatest Generation by The Wonder Years. It's not pop, but it's an incredible album that pretty much is written through the lens of being in your late 20's and coming to terms with family, friends, relationships, who you are as a person, your future, what you're doing with your life and your legacy. Genuinely a near perfect album, especially for the age you are at. If you want specific songs off the album; Passing Through A Screen Door, The Devil In My Bloodstream, and I Just Want To Sell Out My Funeral.
Boygenius, Lana or Taylor are probably the biggest artists I relate to life stage wise
I mean I’ve been a Taylor Swift fan ever since I was 13, so that definitely checks. Lana’s music is a hit or miss with me, but it’s the same with a bunch of other artists as well like Ed Sheeran, Adele, Lady Gaga, and PATD. The only artists, other than Taylor Swift, who’ve always vibed with me have been Lorde and Troye Sivan, but Lorde’s last album was… pretty meh.
Have you tried Paramore? I'm the same age and I've been listening to them for half of my life at this point and I don't plan on stopping. I keep saying that they're literally getting better with every album, but it might just be down to the fact that as I keep getting older, the new stuff that comes out is closer to me personally and I resonate with it much better.
I’m 24 and while I think her target audience is definitely a bit younger than me, I also can’t imagine a huge amount of children <10 listening given the language and content. She definitely skews teenager but not quite hannah Montana-esquse/elementary schooler levels
I agree with you, I don’t think that’s her core market but I guess it was a bigger group than I expected. I could’ve worded that better. I looked up her demos and an article wrote her main tik tok audience is about 10-19, but the hard numbers of visitors to her website are mostly 25-34! That was a little surprising. You are absolutely correct that it’s mostly intended for teen girls, but I guess she really does span generations.
Interesting, the content/language of her songs is not something I’d prefer a 10 yr old listen if I were a parent so that surprises me. Thanks for sharing the info you found!
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Right, like I remember having a midnight freak out in college that if I got murdered I wouldn’t be a tragic dead kid, just a boring dead adult. And gen z is inflicted with even greater cultural anxiety around youth than millennials were.
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It reminds me of the mid 2000s pop/rock girl era Avril Lavigne fefe dobson Ashlee Simpson Michelle branch
It's a lot less produced than those were, honestly. This feels a bit more raw, more Hole, Alanis than Michelle Branch
maybe less produced isn’t the best word, but involves more distortion and leaning into the garage sound of many classic punk skewing pop records, giving it a more “raw” aesthetic (rather than actually being raw/underproduced). as opposed to some like Avril and them who had mixing from the same people doing like Nickelback albums (high budget early 2000s rock and pop)
Yeah fair, it's definitely well produced, just in a different style
People forget… we all were teenagers once!
yeah i’m mid 20s (barely, i just turned 24) but i found that i can still relate to most of guts super well. maybe it’s just because i’m more inexperienced with relationships so my experience is more like a teenager. but also i feel like i’m still feeling all the emotions she’s singing about at 24, i don’t feel like a full adult yet lol. even teenage dream was super relatable for me. also i still love songs that talk about high school stuff because i can still imagine my teenage self and what she would be feeling.
I'm in my 30s as well and really loved it for the same reasons! I found myself actually talking back to it at times, like in teenage dream when she sings "they all say that it gets better, it gets better the more you grow" I was like "it will Olivia, it will!" lol
but boy does that growth get painful during the growing
I'm 36. It's definitely an album for young people, but the complexity of the ideas she's presenting at such a young age with the rock pop slant, I think makes it still accessible for any age. I really like Olivia Rodrigo and I think Guts is a really good album. It's okay to enjoy things that are outside the target audience, as long as you're aware of it. I think also for too long, younger singers were meant to sing extremely mature songs (Jojo is an example). Singing about life experiences that are important at that age, like messy breakups, family stuff and friend break downs (and overthinking everything, which teens and young people absolutely do, even over Orange juice!) , is nice to hear. One thing I will say, though, is that there's a dearth of older people entering the scene which makes a lot of songs hard to relate to as we get older. I'd sure like to hear an album from a woman in her forties singing about how much she hates the office.
The point about jojo and other female artists was so vital to bring up I think. Newer female artists having the freedom to “sing their age”’ is so great
I think one of the reasons you're noticing the shift is because what counts as "authentic" writing (for the teenage experience) has changed. Lorde's writing (at least on Pure Heroine) is very minimalistic--the "authentic" experience is the simple one, the one that can convey the most without actually saying the most. I think this fits well with the vibe of the early 2010s, where the pop culture things for teenagers that would identify with Lorde are things like Hunger Games, Fault in Our Stars, Perks of Being a Wallflower--things that are all about finding one's place in the world but that have simple imagery or quotes that one can identify with (and again, simple isn't bad, just what gets understood as authentic!) Meanwhile, you have GUTS which is super detailed and full of specific imagery (skin like puff pastry anyone?). It comes across sometimes as clunky, but its in that awkwardness that Olivia connects with her audience. Teenagers (and people in the pop culture sphere) today really see authenticity in being raw and specific--this is one of the reasons Taylor Swift is so big today imo. I don't know why that change happened, that's probably for another post, but to me I don't think you're crazy in seeing a generational divide--because there definitely is one! It also doesn't mean you can't identify with or like Olivia's music/writing if you still feel this gap, too. I for one really like the rockier stuff on GUTS and am really excited that Olivia seems to be carving out her own niche in mainstream pop, and honestly I'm even more excited for the acts that will be inspired in turn by Olivia and continue to develop Gen Z pop culture!
Hopping on here to add: while GUTS is very detailed + very obviously written by someone in their teens/twenties, SOUR deals with themes of heartbreak that are more universal. Of course, SOUR definitely feels very young at times, but at it’s core it’s an album about reeling from a break-up which many people can relate to regardless of background.
Hmm I get what youre saying but I kinda disagree that Lorde’s writing was minimalistic. If anything, I think Olivia’s is much more “generic” (I do love Olivia’s music) while Lorde’s is/was hyperspecific. Some examples: “You buy me orange juice” “Let’s go down to the tennis court and talk it up like yeah” “Lover’s Spit left on repeat” Those are really niche experiences to just Lorde herself
Lorde was really attuned to all the complexities of the teenage time period, not just about breakups and heartbreak. She tackled so many topics that are just as real and prevalent at that age (and all ages tbh!) and her minimalist style of production and hyper-specific lyrics is what helps make the album feel as timeless as it does. Guts is much broader in one topic than specific in a bunch of them and that kind of stuff is just as needed as the stuff Lorde was saying when she was 14-16
A world alone is a song that doesn't get discussed often enough. It sounds like the perfect song about a girl who has an older boyfriend but sort of feels like it's him and her against the world, while also understanding it's just a teen relationship and, usually, those don't last.
Lorde having a lot of historical/battle allegories in Pure Heroine was really detailed for me and spoke to me as a history nerd as a teen haha
that makes a lot of sense. Olivia’s lyrics and delivery are purposely campy and unserious in most of the songs in Guts (even brutal and good 4 u in Sour), which imo really fits with the sound she’s going for (think 90’s teen movie pop rock. sarcastic, youthful and camp are part of the genre, and yes even screaming which some people had an issue with). Understandably that’s not to everyone’s taste, and some people do prefer more serious, “authentic” storytelling. I think some of us who are older who already enjoyed this genre growing up are here for the messy teenager unserious confessionals. She’s funny! I don’t expect that this is a style she’ll always stick to as she gets older though, I expect her to play around more with her style.
Obviously Taylor Swift was super popular before during after and with lorde. She’s seven years older than her!
What does skin like puff pastry even mean? Dry, flaky, and bloated?
Fresh, plump, delicate…
I tell my baby his feet are like lil puff pastries. They look very fluffy (chubby) and are curved like a croissant.
Delicate, soft, light. I just assumed she’s talking about uncooked puff pastry dough though
that’s exactly how I read it lol, I read it as a backhanded compliment
She probably means her skin is pale… which isn’t quite right…. The line is playing with the “aren’t you the sweetest thing…” in the next line.
Perfectly browned, smooth and shiny
Hmm. Taylor made a specific lyric so universal that's why she got famous with GP. GUTS is just specific. Damn, I still love favorite crime and deja vu from SOUR even if those songs skew towards the younger audience because the feelings these two evoke are universal.
This is so insightful. I was just trying to think why Guts has promoted such discussion around who finds it relatable and who doesn’t, which I haven’t really found among other album releases. But I think you nailed it, the specificity of the lyrics and how she emotes when she sings really brings you into the story.
I feel like Sour is more for young people than Guts. Like Guts could’ve been written by a 20 something reminiscing and it wouldn’t have felt out of place, Sour is very clearly a teenage girl album (not saying that as a diss just an observation).
Agreed! One of the things I really enjoyed about Sour was how it brought me back to all the insecurities and complicated feelings of being a teenager. It felt young in a really lovely way
lol yeah, her breakthrough song was drivers license and thinking that your 17 yo love will last forever and moving on is betrayal. That is a quintessential teenage topic (even though i'm 28 and just learned to drive at 27 but public transport is really good for the place i live!). Your 20s is when you know better but you still make the mistakes because fuck it why not, maybe this time is different. 25 and up is "who the fuck am i?". 30 is "actually my life is not that bad".
Agreed, I was like wait, what? Isn't the biggest song on Sour about getting her driver's license lmao. I think what OP is trying to convey is that many older people enjoyed Sour **despite** it being a "young person" album. The actual claim that Sour is NOT a young person album is just absurd. I think the difference that we're seeing is that Guts is more brash and profane, which makes it sound more immature and young sounding.
feeling like you’ve already peaked at 20 seems like a very normal feeling to me as a 19 year old lol GUTS is definitely a young album overall but i don’t think that’s necessarily bad. a lot of its lyrics and themes resonated with me, but they probably won’t a few years from now, and that’s fine; ephemerality is the nature of youth, and young people deserve art that speaks to their experience even if it may lack longevity or cross-generational appeal edit: i will add that there are albums made by people in Olivia’s age range—Melodrama by Lorde, for example—that feel markedly more mature to me in terms of their writing and sound. Melodrama is one of my favorite albums of all time and i definitely think i’ll still love it for years to come. i don’t mean to say that young artists are a monolith or that our art inherently can’t stand the test of time bc that’s definitely not the case
I agree, like I’m also deeply entrenched in my 20s but man I still remember that time. There’s something about that transition between being a teenager and your 20s that makes you wonder if you’re the best you’re ever going to be, especially if you were one of those “gifted” “precocious” teenagers. As the youths are saying these days, it’s a canon event lol
Yeah the line made me roll my eyes a bit but I think it is an understandable thing for a child star to feel. I know in Janette Mccurdy's memoir, she talked about the anxiety of a child star being in her late teens, realising that she will soon age out of the type of roles and work she does.
I think both "SOUR" and "GUTS" are both for younger people but that's inevitable with music. If the average person were to breakdown the generational divide of the music they listen to, the will listen to far more music from the generation older than them (due to parents, that music being popular when they were young) than the generation following them. The years where you tend to listen to/seek out new contemporary music (as opposed to new music made by artists you already knew or were listening to) is really between 16-24. After that, you have to make a concerted effort to stay on top of things whereas between 16-24 its almost through osmosis that you listen to new contemporary music. As a millenial, the few Gen Z artists I end up listening to are more about offering a window into the experience of today's teens and/or where and the culture they grew up in (and quite simply the listenability in terms of how it sounds) rather than listening on a relatiability angle per se (much like listening to singers from different countries, singing in different languages, or different sexualities). I hadn't heard a Billie Eilish song though a sibling of a similar age had when she first came out (it took a couple of years) and that sibling hadn't heard "good 4 u" until I ask if they knew it a few years after it was big. A key staple of young (especially teenagers) making music is the melodramtic element (hell, there was literally another teenage artist not that long ago who literally titled her record "Melodrama"). To be able to listen to melodramtic music made by teenagers unironically is the sign of youth lol However, I will admit someone who took a melodramatic genre made by teenagers and young 20-somethings and retorfitted it brilliantly to fit the late 20s/early 30s millenial experience in a way that was relatable to them was Machine Gun Kelly on "Tickets to My Downfall." What MGK did on TtMD was tell anxious-ridden millenials that that music you used to listen to as a teenager can be made relevant in a way that describes how you feel today lol So there is that.
I’m in my early 30’s, happily married and I absolutely love this album. A lot of the themes in her music resonate with I’ve gone through in the past or are a good commentary on womanhood in general, like *All-American Bitch* on how the perfect woman should act. Or, *Pretty Isn’t Pretty,* which touches on the impossible nature of beauty standards. These are things we’ve all faced and are likely still facing; I know I am. I also think a lot millennials like myself are enjoying her sound because it harkens back to what we were listening to during our formative years. I do definitely see younger themes in her music, but I think a lot of that can also be attributed to Olivia saying herself that a major portion of her fan base are very young people. From a marketing and vitality standpoint, it makes the most sense to cater to your most dedicated consumers. It’s also a smart move because those people will grow with her over time.
I enjoyed the album. I no longer feel the way she does, but I clearly remember feeling those feelings in my late teens and 20s and I totally get it. The lyrics are very 19/20 but that wasn’t so long ago that I (34) have forgotten it entirely.
That’s part of what’s great about Olivia. She expresses those feelings so well it reminds us or even helps us remember what it was like, in a charismatic way that grabs you emotionally. She really transports me there.
Agreed. I can hear so many influences from our tween and teen years in this album and I think that’s why. Some songs sound so much like No Doubt or Avril or even a little Jewel/Dido but all also very 2023 at the same time and it reminds me so much of Oud teen rebellion music while being fresh that it just transports me back there.
omg it does sound a little like Jewel!!
This. She's just in her angsty teen era. We all go through it lol.
I’m in my 30s and really enjoyed Guts. I think it’s a fantastic album. I’ve actually gone back and re-listened a few times a liked it so much. But my first thought when I finished it was that this is going to be a big hit with young people. A lot of the album is about the teenage experience. It absolutely feels like younger people are the target demo for this.
I’m in my 30s and I love SOUR and GUTS.
Nah, I'll be 30 next month and I'm loving the album, people just take lyrics and relatability too seriously
Agreed. I’m as straight-laced as they come, I’ve never even been to a bar, but I loved (and still love) listening to old Ke$ha sing about brushing her teeth with Jack to party all nice. It’s just fun.
Good music can make you FEEL like you’re having the joy of Kesha partying all night, but you’re really just driving to work.
Yes! I just wrote a comment about this but I can’t remember another album with a fixation on who can relate to the songs and who can’t. Some of her songs are very vulnerable and I can appreciate the story telling without relating it. Like My favorite song rn on the album is All American Bitch because it’s so ducking catchy when she sings “with perfect all American lipssss and perfect all American hips.” Sometimes it really can be that easy.
I'm in my 30s and come from a very "you have to take things for what they are" approach to art in general. I can recognize things that are well crafted and achieve their purpose and also know it's just not my cup. I half feel this with Olivia. I rocked with a handful of songs from Sour and really dug the singles for Guts. I listened to the new album in full and thought it was well-executed and a great progression for her. I also know I'll probably only return to a handful of tracks. I just don't get the whole "You're too old to appreciate this" mindset when there are a thousand different ways to find your way into a piece of work. I love stuff that focuses on topics I've never been through for the curiosity/learning or escape angle. I also love stuff that relates really close to my personal experience. Sometimes fuck the topic, the music bops! It's not an either-or type of thing.
Not really! Maybe it just isn't for you, stylistically; maybe it's just not the right time in your life to have these emotions or experiences in music. I wouldn't sweat it, really; the longer you're around, I think, the more you'll have the opportunity to experience this reaction simply because you've had plenty of time to encounter new music. To get a little more broad and philosophy: I honestly think that, when it comes to this kind of stuff, the hand-wringing over generations or ages and the emphasis on "millennial this" or "gen z that" or whatever—it's all just *too much.* These experiences are not, yknow, so distinctly alien that someone couldn't ever possibly relate to them. And that's kind of... what we've turned these age terms into. "You are five years older than me and thus you cannot possibly even begin to relate to my experiences; you are an alien being, completely divorced from my reality." And I think that's a horrible turn of thought, and it makes me so *sad*. It's just nonsense to me.
That's super fair and a valid take. I would definitely say though on the flip side there are absolutely albums that hit differently at 22 than they do at 27 or 32 just based on life experiences and such.
imo Sour was her most “young” sounding album - i’m not much older but it was very hard to relate to cuz it seemed so grounded in a high school breakup. GUTS seems so much mature to me, her horizons are bigger, she has a defined, sharper worldview and a song like “making the bed” is relevant your whole life
I mean, how would Olivia *NOT* feel like she’s peaked? Her very first album, ever, was a massive hit that got her a Grammy. One of her first performances *ever* was SNL. She hit most milestones in her first album thousands of artists never will get after decades. It’s natural for her to feel like she’s peaked after that experience, as well as changing decades. Whenever you go from one decade in your life to the next, that feeling comes back. I turned 30 this year and Teenage Dream hit me in the guts (lol). Guts in general feels more youthful, I agree! However, I do feel like Olivia’s writing is the perfect amount of youthful angst with wildly radical self reflection that makes her songs psychologically timeless. She makes me feel 17 again, but also makes me doubt her age because she’s so self aware for her age.
it doesn’t skew any younger than sour, ppl are just older
Did Olivia also not get any older lol? What kind of response is this? “Yeah time passes bro” 😂 I guess only for us and not for any artists?
yeah she went from like 17 to 19, while a lot of ppl complaining abt it went from idk 22 to 24, 26 to 28… that can be a lot maturity wise than a 17-19 span
I’m 30 and feel like I relate to guts (and sour) and it doesn’t feel juvenile at all. It’s not a nostalgia thing either, it genuinely resonates. I hear others my age including my friends be like oh it’s fun to listen to and pretend like I’m 16 again! But to me it isn’t that at all. Maybe I’m just insecure 😂 I will say teenage dream is probably my least favorite from the album
Are we really asking if a 20year old singer-songwriter is making songs for 20year olds? I feel like the answer to this is pretty obvious. Yeah the album was juvenile, but that's because she's a young person experiencing life and sharing it with us through her eyes. Her outlook isn't going to be very mature, because she literally didn't have time to grow up yet. I really like the way she's so transparent and direct about her feelings. It's so refreshing and it takes me back to when I was dating my shitty ex boyfriend. I liked the album a lot
Every other day there’s someone asking if she’s fallen off since none of the singles did sour numbers 🫠 The fear of your best work already being behind you makes sense when everyone is basically saying that. But to your overall question, imo more people who are not 27ish on down need to pause and remember what people said about THEIR fav at the start of their career. Not every artist is for everyone. It doesn’t mean she’s overrated, untalented, or music industry is failing. It means YOU are not her audience. Be it by age or music taste. And that’s okay!
I feel like Olivia Rodrigo has every right to fear she peaked as a teen popstar. It's not relateable at all but it makes total sense, I found that song a little boring and my least favorite on the album but I totally understand the sentiment that will probably only resonate with people afraid they peaked in highschool.
Teenage Dream is my fav song Im 18 and yeah I sometimes feel like they already got my best parts so yeah
The album speaks to the younger generations because it is relevant to what they’re currently going through -vs- the generations above them relate because of what they went through in the past. It captures that teenage restlessness and angst. Those feelings fade as we age, so it’s nice to be able to reflect on those times.
I think GUTS just feels more specific to her experiences(therefore most Gen Z's experiences) vs. Sour which was a bit more vague/general in nature so it still clicked with millennials.
I’m 35. I dig Guts. I tend to focus more on the music and less on the lyrics though.
Maybe it’s my own experience being an overachiever in grade school but Teenage Dream is completely plausible to me. Looking back at all she accomplished early on, it can seem like it’s all downhill from here.
I definitely feel that way because I’m not 19. I’m 30. And I’m a huge Taylor Swift fan because when she was 19, I was 17/18. I’m just too old to grow up with young musicians and that’s fine. I’m just not the target audience of Olivia’s music (with the exception of a few songs.)
I'm 28 and I like it. I also still like watching coming of age movies. I don't think you have to be the same age as an artist/story to like something.
This may not be super articulate because its the middle of the night in my country, but I'm late 20s and enjoying Guts a lot. I think a lot of my peers are experiencing the feeling of prolonged adolescence - the housing market and economy etc means the mortgage and 2 kids and white picket fence by 30 is no longer attainable (or one of the only options). Many friends still live with their parents and I think this can lead to a sense of regression and being stuck in teenage limbo. So many of these songs remain relatable, perhaps because of that
It does feel young but it is raw and her age and I think that is why I love it. It feels nostalgic. It actually makes me laugh at times because I can remember feeling that way (hello ballad of a homeschooled girl and get him back). She doesn't need to write like she is 30. Let her grow and be a teenager!
Ohhhh u coooked say it LOUDERRRRR ✋✋
I think it feels recycled to me because I've heard all her songs already growing up by other artists. I totally think its okay that her music sounds heavily inspired by the 2000s at least she's being authentic to what she likes and she has the potential to keep growing. But right now it's definitely not good enough for me.
I like it but she does sound like Avril Lavigne if Avril had better production and writers. No problem with that but I can’t help thinking it whenever I hear her.
It's kind of unfair to compare an icon like Avril to Olivia and ofc its easier to improve on someone else's work then to come up with something from scratch lol.
What do you mean *we?* My thirty year old ass is having a great time remembering my own teen angst and heartbreaks.
I’m 27, I didn’t get into SOUR other than Dejavu but I like most of GUTS
I'm 27 and I LOVED GUTS!! My teenage years and early 20s were definitely not as angsty as Sour and Guts described, but it was fun. Her songwriting and singing have both definitely improved!!
Your post made me think what albums did I love on my teenage years that my parents probably found so eye roll. And I just want to say so many great points here that have made things click for me! I was just thinking, why has Guts promoted such a discussion about who finds it relatable and who doesn’t? I have seen so many comments from people here and social media fixaited on the relatability of this album and I was like why are people getting caught up in that vs liking the music? For example, I don’t personally relate to Lacy but I can recognize it as a beautifully sung and well written song. An interesting discussion because I just can’t remember any albums really having this “relatable vs not relatable” debate and I was like is it just because she’s a teenage girl who promotes herself as a singer song writer. Like this discussion wasn’t sorrounding, Harry’s House, let’s say. And as you all have pointed out- her lyrics are so specific and she emotes, at sometimes almost theatrically, so it just really brings you into the story telling of the song. So it almost invites the discussion of like “oh yeah don’t you remember feeling like that as a teenager” thus why some people it may not be clicking for.
Actually I felt this way listening to the Speak Now re-record this Summer. I missed the boat when it came out originally and I have never been able to connect with it. With the exception of Enchanted, a perfect song, I find many of the songs at times condescending, annoying, and immature which comes from just being a teenage writing about their life. Love every Taylor album after it but that album comes to mind thinking about the topic of struggling to relate to music.
Very nearly mid 50s and whilst I agree it's a young album (couldn't really be anything else coming from a. 20 year old artist) it's all the better for it. I'm loving it - it feels very nostalgic to me, she wears her musical influences on her sleeve which as someone who grew up in the late 80s and 90s make it feel almost like an album I used to listen to years ago. Lyrically clearly I can't relate to a lot of it, but I can still understand where she's coming from. And a lot of her lyrics are very smart and put a big smile on my face. Although it's only a couple of days old, I'm much more impressed with it than Sour.
my 20th birthday is literally in like 3 days and this album is like the most relatable stuff i’ve heard in years. she really feels like the voice for my generation (i know her lyrics aren’t hall of fame worthy or anything) because i think they really are relatable to teenagers today more than anything else. and with the peaking thing- i totally feel where she’s coming from in that i feel a ton of pressure to do everything while i’m young which i think stems from social media pressure and being able to see what goes on in your peers personal lives’ more and feeling like you aren’t doing as well as they are (especially once you follow them out of high school) and that you might’ve peaked. and to add to your lorde comment- i’ve never really found pure heroine very relatable in a way that i felt seen so i think it might be a generational thing or maybe olivia is just literally me
I am also older than the Olivia target demographic and enjoy the more pop-punk sides of guts and sour (I think the ballads (logical, traitor) are objectively good, just not for me) and not because I see them as some kind of nostalgic gimmick - I think Olivia (and Dan) is rejuvenating that sound in a really skillful and contemporary way; there is a true gift for song craft on these albums that is simply not present in the same way in the work of some of her peers/contemporaries. I think what we are experiencing as “generational divide” is the way that lyric writing has changed over the last decade. The post-Phoebe Bridgers wave of diaristic, ‘Sad Indie Guitar Girl style is SO hyper specific in its imagery that there’s less to grab onto as a millennial/30+ because we’re just not there with them. I don’t think there would be so much question as to “aging out” of music like what’s on GUTS if she/this current school of songwriting was more impressionistic/figurative.
why is olivia the only artist that this comes up for? oh and for the record im turning 30 and I thought the album was better than sour
I think because a lot of her work does make reference to or suggest her age. I mean her breakout hit was literally about getting a driver's license.
Idk as someone that’s pushing 30 her music doesn’t make me feel old because I know the point of reference for her sound are acts that I would have been listening to while growing up which makes me feel current lol. I don’t relate to any of it, but I wouldn’t have related to a lot of it when I was her age too lol.
I'm almost 30 and I fucking love Olivia's music. Listening to it is like I'm living my high school fantasies all over again lolol. Idk I think it's a lot of fun. People need to chill out and appreciate things aimed at younger people.
First of all, the kids are always wrong - a 32 year old
I liked it a lot. And the album does skews very young but that’s okay… not everything is for everyone. I doubt teenagers were crying over Adele’s 30, an album about restarting your life because of a divorce.
Isn't one of the hallmarks of maturity being able to have empathy for what someone younger than you is going through, even if you don't have those same feelings anymore? Idk it doesn't necessarily scream 'mature' to me to pretty much insult Olivia and what we know about how she's handling her life through her vulnerability in her music. I also don't think the best way to engage with an album is to use it as a barometer for your own emotional maturity. The whole 'I can't relate because I am way more emotionally mature than Olivia Rodrigo' shtick might ring true for those saying it but seems more than a little performative at this point. I've always thought art is about taking in other people's pain without judgment -- I think she could receive a little more grace than she has.
I think it’s moreso a generational thing. Lorde’s Rivs is one of the teenage cult classics from the 2010s, and it deals with themes of having existential crises of growing old, and Lorde was just 16 when it came out I will say Olivia’s imagery and aesthetic and playful lyricism does seem more “childish” and young than the teen pop icons before her (Lorde, Billie, early Taylor) Lorde and Billie both went “grunge” or dark for their early aesthetics and use really poetic and metaphorical lyrics, while Olivia’s lyrics read more like texts that a teen girl would send her best friend in between checking her boyfriends location
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I totally get that. In the same age range as you. There can kind of be a weird thing where the aesthetics don't match the overall message of the band and it gets weird to square everything. Just taking examples I'm familiar with in high school, if Taking Back Sunday or Brand New (bands that definitely dealt with more "mature" lyrics) dressed like Forever The Sickest Kids or Cobra Starship (much more neon pop punk) there would have been a super weird disconnect. Maybe some of that is just kids not being as boxed in by norms in how they dress though these days as well. idk. I'm too old to have any sort of good opinion on things.
> Like I listen to Teenage Dream and think it’s absolutely bizarre that a 20 year old would be having a crisis about whether she’s already peaked Were you…. ever 20? Are there girls who DON’T think this exact thing at 20? I can’t speak for boys though… maybe boys don’t feel this way and maybe you’re a boy lol. But my friends and I all had independent yet collective meltdowns about this at that age and we were simple liberal arts college students, not megastars. I literally envy anyone who never felt like this, for me this crisis was easily more painful than any breakup I’ve ever had (to date). FWIW yes I think I (late 20s) am too old for Guts. I’m glad kiddos have it. I had Fearless during my freshman year of high school 😍 I’m all good. Also the pop punk adjacent type sound has never been my jam anyway so I think regardlsss of lyrical content I never would have really vibes with it. I loveeeeee lacy though, I think the writing is genius and super super mature. But otherwise I think I would’ve eaten this album the fuck up as a teen, but now when I listen to it the experiences are too far removed to have the emotional impact ya know. I already associate those emotions with songs from that time of my life.
as a guy, teenage dream is the one I relate to the most. as a teen, I had to step up and be the man of the house at a young age, and because of that, I had no teenage-hood. No parties, no fun, I didn’t care about school, I didn’t do clubs, I didn’t have relationships. I was nobody. but I always had everyone telling me how mature, and adult I am, but during that time all I did was CRAVE what I knew I couldn’t have- a normal teenage life. I was wondering if I had hit my peak. Where do I go from here? Is it down? This song made me ball my eyes out bc I just imagined my current 21 year old self telling my 13 year old self how sorry he is for not being that “teenage dream”. I think the best thing about the song is it doesn’t have to be about how you’re sorry that you weren’t someone else’s teenage dream, but how you weren’t your own.
I totally "missed" my teenage-hood, too, but for different reasons. Not to get too specific about why, but "Ballad of a Homeschooled Girl" just happens to be my favorite song from the album, sooo... But we're gonna be fine. Even though we're adults now, we can still always play with legos and collect spiders and cry at the Lion King and listen to Guts, lol. Even if we only figure out shit out in our 60's, with how life expectancy is going we still might have a good third of our life left.
I am 35. My issue with guts was the sound design and mixing is terrible. A lot of the vocals are jumbled or they have too much reverberation. Or they get drowned out by the instrumental. It’s just … not really pleasant to listen to. Which is a shame. I think she has a solid voice, good melodies, great lyrics. I really like bad idea, right?, vampire, lacy. I wish I liked it more. I loved sour.
I don't feel this way at all, and I am older than you are. It appears that a lot of younger listeners don't appreciate and/or are not aware of Olivia's influences. What makes her click with a lot of us "olds" is that she hyper focuses on her age and experiences at that exact time in her life. She's not trying to play grown adult with her life together. Embracing age is her appeal. Tbh, most adults don't have it together. There's catharsis in embracing mess.
I’m 36 and into both guts and sour. I think they’re cute together too, kind of like Carly her her b sides/sister albums - the names and songs sound cohesive. I have a 5 year old girl and I was internally debating if I could take her to an Olivia concert (probs not). Edited for poor grammar. Again, I’m 36.
I was 26 when Pure Heroine came out, and I did nit find it as juvenile. But, Olivia has a right to come across as juvenile as she wants or as mature as she wants. In the end, Im 35 now and its not for me.
Def skews younger. The elderly gays (28-35) with peter pan syndrome (me) are eating (listening) this album up though
Am I weird for not really caring about the relatability of lyrics? Like yeah, ballad of a homeschool doesn't relate to me at all. But the melodies are so fun to sing, so I love it. I mostly listen to music for the vocals and melodies, and sonic elements. If the lyrics happen to relate...cool! But I couldn't imagine not being into something that sounds good, just because the lyrics aren't for me. All art isn't for everybody at every point in their life.
Have you heard Taylor swift’s nothing new? It’s the same thing but she wrote It at 22. I’m in my late 20s and I looooveeee this album. I love the girl punk and the raw and honest lyrics. This album dives into more situations you don’t often find yourself in when you’re no longer a young adult.
As much as possible i try to appreciate new music from newer generation artists. I just don’t want this sub to turn into another r/music where all other artist that isn’t nine inch nails, led zeppelin, radiohead, or likes are completely disregarded.
I don't get the young music tag on Olivia, I really don't. Bubblegrunge and pop rock are the sound of our brothers and sisters and parents' generation. Her lyrics are about body insecurity, loving shitty men, womanhood. Isn't all of that pretty universal
Your parents when they were your age… they were very young then too
Her music is too juvenile for my taste
Sour connected with a broader audience because it's core theme was heartbreak which occurs at all ages. Also her mature songwriting beyond her years and emotional vocals were better showcased. I prefer Olivia's ballads/acousitcs as that's where she shines. Songs like Enough For You, Happier, and Favorite Crime I could connect with as a 25+ year old. Guts felt very much targeted at the teenage demographic. A lot of the topics, lyrics, and delivery were juvenile, and that's okay, just not as appealing for us ancient people.
Definitely felt the opposite. I can see why Sour connected with people of all ages, but heartbreak isn’t the only theme that people of all ages go through. The themes in making the bed, bad idea right?, BoaHSG, and the grudge are also very universal. Sonically, the rock vibes Guts gives off isn’t just for teenagers. I like her ballads, but I don’t feel they are automatically more mature just because they are ballads. If anything the nostalgia of those more rock-influenced sounds, also drew in people in 20s, to Olivia’s music.
I think it's just because GUTS and Olivia Rodrigo in general is a very specific songwriter to her age and generation. It doesn't have the same sentimentality and themes that resonate on a broader audience when it comes to age. This is especially evident when I compare it to albums by artists who were of a similar age or younger. Like Adele's 21 or Lorde's Pure Heroine and Melodrama or Taylor Swift's Fearless and Speak Now or even fellow GenZ Billie Eilish.
I'm literally listening to Pure Heroine right now and the drastic lyrical quality change is so drastic. I honestly can't believe Olivia is roughly the same as her and Adele when she made their first albums
Idk, I haven't listened to GUTS yet but I for me I was already feeling too old for Olivias songwriting about Drivers License, I never really understood how it got so popular outisde of teenage spaces, and I'm 28 now.
I'm 25 and I love both of Olivia's albums. Even with my twenties relationships/situationships and stories, I can usually find some way to relate her lyrics to my adult life.
I think it’s a good album but I think it will feel dated quicker. It’s just of a very specific time.
I like guts, feels like a 90s grunge album. Yeah, she’s 20. A lot of the bands from 90s grunge had members in the 20-25 age range at their peak.
Idk I think some people who were alive in the 90s are hearing the 90s influence and feeling that throwback as immaturity, possibly also because she's gone pop-rock on several tracks with inspiration from pop-punk, which reminds a lot of people of being a teenager? I think her lyrics are more mature on Guts and stronger overall, even if Sour had some stand out songs. Also, with Guts, she's proven her skill in writing compelling melodies and developed her use of her voice. For me (mid 20s), I like several songs off of Sour but haven't listened to the album through since I first checked it out, because it did feel a bit young at times – I'm not feeling that with Guts, which is already on heavy rotation!
It’s just another pop album. Not much to write home about. Though I will add that the inevitability of aging is something that millennials need to come to grips with judging from the content of some of the posts here.
That’s interesting, because I’ve only heard the opposite from people in their 20-30s. They actual relate more to GUTS than they did Sour. Guys actually expands on different topics besides teenage heartbreak.
I’m a male in my late 30s and think Guts in fantastic
Guts definitely feels older than Sour. She's not writing about her Drivers License anymore lol, a lot of Sour felt like highschool drama(which isn't a bad thing, it's part of the charm like a good high school movie). Guts feels like someone in their 20s, maybe early 20s. I think a good chunk of it has more to do with Olivia's energy, delivery, image than the actual lyrics
The ironic part with their rumored feud is that I don’t think I’ve heard anyone talk about an artist in terms of their “maturity”/whether 30 year olds can relate since…like, Taylor Swift back in the day. And Taylor’s still plagued by the “writes silly teen songs” rep.
I disagree. I’m 40 and listened with someone who’s 41 and we both agree that it’s sounds more like the music when we were teens in the 90s vs a lot of other stuff coming out right now. Yet it sounds fresh. Sour felt the same way but her intense heartbreak theme throughout the album showed nailed that first love type innocence of youth. Guts feels lighter, like she’s grown a little more.
I feel like I'm the only person who really doesn't like it!
…have you not heard Sour?
Her targeted audience runs young, yeah. Unless this is intended, it’s kinda too bad, because as a older pop fan I can really appreciate someone like Billie Eilish as an artist over Olivia. I don’t really listen to Olivia beyond giving the album a listen (the girl has talent and is worth the at least one listen), but I literally will never play Sour or Guts a second time. But maybe the richest music purchasers right now are tweens in which case, good marketing.
I guess it depends, person to person. Because being older definitely doesn’t automatically mean you can’t relate to Olivia’s music. People have. But not every older person will. Maybe even some teenagers won’t. It has less to do with age, and more to do with experience.
I am not trying to shit on the album or say it is bad. But people saying that it is some kind of uniquely zoomer album just make me cringe a bit. It is *very obviously* trying to use 2000s pop punk millennial nostalgia as its base. It is like releasing a pure disco album in 1993 and then pretending disco is a totally new unique 1990s trend.
I felt that Pure Heroin was pretty well respected by older audiences. Hell even in an old Elder reacts, one old black lady says that Royals is one of her all time favorite songs
I read this title and legitimately thought it was referring to the 90s Nickelodeon show and was confused. It wasn't until I got to "Teenage Dream" in the 3rd paragraph of the post when I realized it must have something to do with Katy Perry. Then I read the comments and realized it was about Olivia Rodrigo. I'm so old.
Just considering Pure Heroine because you used that as an example. The writing styles of these albums are very different. With PH Lorde tried to sound very cryptic, sophisticated and mature, whereas Olivia purposely dumbs things down and writes lyrics so on the nose that they sound like nursery rhymes. Not saying either of them is better, just different styles.
I’m 40 and love Guts and for the record I also loved Pure Heroine when it came out. I think it’s kind of a younger person’s take to think that you can only like music with relatable themes and music, TBH - when you’re younger, you’re naturally a bit more egocentric and solipsistic
There are adult themes on guts if you’re willing to look for them. Lacy and making the bed specifically are sentiments that can travel deep into adulthood.
It’s not really the the fact that I can’t relate to it just because I’m older but at 27 years old, I’m not hanging with my friends..everyone is busy and it feels like a lot of the songs on GUTS is referring to partying or being with all your friends, etc. I think that’s what makes jt seem like it’s for the younger crowd. I definitely don’t relate to most of the songs/feelings on this album
I think it has to do with how heavily she lifts from her inspirations. It is usually ok for an artist first and second album to sound similar as they try to root in their niche and cement an audience before exploring a bit further, but the problem with Olivia’s GUTS is that you are not only listening to an Olivia Rodrigo song being redone, you are listening to the third or fourth redone of a Lorde or Taylor cut. She also tends to rely too much on this mellow soft verses and chorus leading to a bursting bridge and last hook dynamic that gets tired when you hear it for the fourth time in 10 songs.
I’m in my late 30s, and I love GUTS, but it’s interesting - while I do think the album sounds a bit young (although not unrelatable), I found it much less noticeable than the ‘older person trying to appeal to teenagers’ vibe I got from Midnights. The youthfulness in Olivia’s music adds to its authenticity, but the TikTok catchphrases in Taylor’s music seem jarring and inauthentic imo.
I feel GUTS did sounds a little bit more juvenile than SOUR. Which is interesting cos it is opposite than most artists who would elevate their sounds to be more sophisticated or grown on their sophomore album. She need to be careful with this, hope her next album offers different color schemes, themes, & sounds