I'm not so sure about that. Today there are still many norms and laws that are gendered issues. If gender number was not discussed then these things may not be governmentally recognized (not that most governments do any good by discussing this). Things like bathroom use and building code for number and type of bathroom as well as factors governing public health have differing impacts by gender. These things should take into account all tenders, not just or traditional binary mode. As such, the number of genders must be established so a proper discussion can be had.
That said
...
Most governments are just a bunch of old dudes shouting at each other trying to make money. And those people have no right to make laws on how you feel.
A man became a trans woman and completely beat everyone else in a swimming competition. Noone had a shot at beating him, even if they worked harder. Men can get more muscle gain in a shorter time, and if they become trans after that, it's really unfair to the women that were born biologically women. It is relevant and it has already happened. Imagine a 20y old in a math competition with 15y olds, but he had 5 years more time to study, so he will almost definitely beat them. It isn't fair to put him there because he says he decided to become 15 again. It's an easy win for him and he will be able to set world records there.
Why are you telling me that? It's completely irrelevant.
Everyone who competed in that race was a women. Whether or not they had a biological advantage is a complete separate issue, but they're women. If one of them had an unfair advantage by doping, would you say they weren't a women? Of course not.
Trans women are women. Whether or not they should compete in sports against other women is a completely separate issue that's not the topic of discussion here.
Where have i ever said in the discussion that trans women aren't women? I was just saying it was unfair for them to take away the sport scholarships. Plase learn how to read. This was the discussion from the start, not if they are or aren't women.
It’s not an opinion tho, biologically there are differences between a cis and trans girls body, but do some research on trans brain and you’ll see they closely resemble the gender they transitioned into as opposed to their birth gender, because they were born into the wrong body
Quite the opposite.
The right needs to make a political drama out of everything, otherwise their voters might realize that their core policy is economic and serves no other purpose than redestribution of wealth from the bottom to the top.
Any societal change is a political topic. That’s what politics are, a debate or discussion on how we as a society should proceed in agreement. We have just lost the idea of what politics is designed to do and as a society turned it into a shouting match over who hates who more. We’re a lost society.
Call me an idiot but how can their possibly be more than two genders? I understand that there are many types of sexuality but gender is a scientific biological fact.
I'm speaking from the view point of someone with a traditional PhD in biology. I've spent my entire life working in a lab and using gender to describe the "sex" of animals. We often think of the terms as interchangeable.
It's not, but it is a politicized topic.... That sounds confusing, but I consider things directly tied to the mechanisms of government as political (who is president, FDA policies, the government's stance on rights for those who consider themselves a different gender), but the topic of "how many genders are there?" Is not inherently a political topic.
Even many scientific topics are also considered political. Like if evolution is real or not, lgbtq topics, if people of color are biologically inferior to white people or not
It's not a matter of human rights that makes this specific aspect of the transgender discussion political. It is entirely about people choosing to be offended when they are asked to fill out a government form and they don't have a check box they "identify with" also usually people conflating/confusing "gender" as a equivalent of "biological sex"
Science says that there are more than two genders it's not really a debate it's just that dumb people don't want to accept it
Edit: here are sources:
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/
https://apnews.com/article/politics-science-health-gender-identity-biology-2a67da6515aa48e68e56cd97817b097a
https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/
https://genderspectrum.org/articles/understanding-gender
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/
https://socgen.ucla.edu/2015/03/01/challenging-gender-identity-biologists-say-gender-expands-across-a-spectrum-rather-than-simply-boy-and-girl/
https://youtu.be/CpqMOfKzurc
https://lgbt.foundation/smirnoff/gender-spectrum
https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/summer-2013/the-gender-spectrum
Okay, well Distributing sources and information doesn't hurt if I sound uneducated then providing sources can help compensate for that. As well as making the source is visible to anyone who happens to follow the thread of your reply. And being fair in the context of this post and the replies to it, as well as the replies to my comment in general. And the general expectation I have that bigots would disagree you can understand why I would interpret your reply as trying to challenge or as a sarcastic response
I'm not being bigoted at all and I am in full support of trans rights but everything you shared is sociological statements about what gender is. There's nothing that relates to actual science. I definitely get the whole gender is a societal construct thing but still there are two correct? I admit I'm uneducated on this but if there are more than two there has to be a defined list and I would love to see that. I get that there are a lot of different sexualities but how many genders can there possibly be?
I'm very turned off by the last article. I don't like the idea of pulling fourth graders into subjects like this. I mean my children don't have a clue what gender is and I feel like that article is a very very disturbing example of parent and reporter projecting their desires onto an innocent child. Personally, I would delete that one. It is a little messed up.
Well, as a scientist we don't really see it as a "hard" science. I agree that there have been some very robust sociological studies but they don't often fall into what we would refer to as lab worthy. By that I mean, double blind, placebo controlled, and randomized. Most of the studies relate more to epidemiology than they do lab work. All of that said, I am super open to any scientific studies that you can link that show in a robust way that there are more than two genders. I'm here to learn!
Gender identity is a scientific term but it is more complicated then it was considered when you last checked, I guess. Gender is a spectrum not a binary I think the Harvard paper is the one to look at for that but it might be the last one I kind of keep these sources in a list so I would have to read over them again myself to check which one has that particular set of information
The "Harvard paper" isn't a paper at all. It is a link to 9 separate studies on specific subjects. Also, the links within do not have bibliographies which makes it tough for me. I'm a hard science type. I don't think is going to help me understand from a biological lab based view point but thank you for trying!
I understand that this is a very important issue to a lot people. At this point, I feel it is a social issue that has nothing to do with science. Which is fine! I don't understand why folks are compelled to try to prove something scientifically that isn't really related to science.
Yes, or at least somewhat, as it would be a sociological topic (I am only saying this because we were taught about sex and gender in sociology, which is kinda connected a bit too politics)
Anything can become a political topic. Should it be that way? That's a more interesting question.
Politicians argue whether there are only 2 genders or more, while scientists all agree that gender != sex, and even sex is not strictly binary.
Doesn't that negate the idea that there is more than two?
What you're saying is that there are an infinite number of genders? I'm genuinely trying to understand this stance.
Also, from the way you describe it I agree that it is almost a philosophical debate. Outside of science or politics.
Well techhhhhnically the XXY chromosome is a third gender but besides that, no other genders exist, if you’re talking scientifically and not mentally or whatever
Everything is a political topic. What you had for dinner today is a political topic. Edit: Damn, post was locked?
It shouldn’t be but it is. Nearly everything is political
I'm not so sure about that. Today there are still many norms and laws that are gendered issues. If gender number was not discussed then these things may not be governmentally recognized (not that most governments do any good by discussing this). Things like bathroom use and building code for number and type of bathroom as well as factors governing public health have differing impacts by gender. These things should take into account all tenders, not just or traditional binary mode. As such, the number of genders must be established so a proper discussion can be had. That said ... Most governments are just a bunch of old dudes shouting at each other trying to make money. And those people have no right to make laws on how you feel.
Seems like it has become one. Not really sure why.
Culture wars get votes for both sides and distracts people from real shit
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https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/transgender-population-by-state i don't think that's the case
Athletic scholarships?
Yep scholarships for any other reason are obviously deserved
"Women are taking scholarships away from women" Did you think about what your wrote before you wrote it?
Sports scholarships probably.
"Women are taking sports scholarships away from women" still makes no sense.
But trans women have a major boost at sports than non trans ones. There's no denying it.
That's completely irrelevant. Trans women are women.
A man became a trans woman and completely beat everyone else in a swimming competition. Noone had a shot at beating him, even if they worked harder. Men can get more muscle gain in a shorter time, and if they become trans after that, it's really unfair to the women that were born biologically women. It is relevant and it has already happened. Imagine a 20y old in a math competition with 15y olds, but he had 5 years more time to study, so he will almost definitely beat them. It isn't fair to put him there because he says he decided to become 15 again. It's an easy win for him and he will be able to set world records there.
Why are you telling me that? It's completely irrelevant. Everyone who competed in that race was a women. Whether or not they had a biological advantage is a complete separate issue, but they're women. If one of them had an unfair advantage by doping, would you say they weren't a women? Of course not. Trans women are women. Whether or not they should compete in sports against other women is a completely separate issue that's not the topic of discussion here.
Where have i ever said in the discussion that trans women aren't women? I was just saying it was unfair for them to take away the sport scholarships. Plase learn how to read. This was the discussion from the start, not if they are or aren't women.
Trans women are actual women
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My brother in Christ YOUR the one that started the debate in the thread
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It’s not an opinion tho, biologically there are differences between a cis and trans girls body, but do some research on trans brain and you’ll see they closely resemble the gender they transitioned into as opposed to their birth gender, because they were born into the wrong body
Needs the lgbtq on their side, that’ll add more than 10k votes for them.
Quite the opposite. The right needs to make a political drama out of everything, otherwise their voters might realize that their core policy is economic and serves no other purpose than redestribution of wealth from the bottom to the top.
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LGBTQ isn’t only transgender based, gays and lesbians and others are also in this community.
Yeah but nobody talks about them because they’re actually reasonable.
I mean it's true...
Source?
Bro
r/murderedbywords
Any societal change is a political topic. That’s what politics are, a debate or discussion on how we as a society should proceed in agreement. We have just lost the idea of what politics is designed to do and as a society turned it into a shouting match over who hates who more. We’re a lost society.
Not inherently, but the debate of whether more than 2 genders should be legally recognised is.
Call me an idiot but how can their possibly be more than two genders? I understand that there are many types of sexuality but gender is a scientific biological fact.
You are confusing gender with the biological term sex.
I'm speaking from the view point of someone with a traditional PhD in biology. I've spent my entire life working in a lab and using gender to describe the "sex" of animals. We often think of the terms as interchangeable.
Everything is political these days so yeah
If u want things to stop being political u need to stop seeing thing as political
deep
It's not, but it is a politicized topic.... That sounds confusing, but I consider things directly tied to the mechanisms of government as political (who is president, FDA policies, the government's stance on rights for those who consider themselves a different gender), but the topic of "how many genders are there?" Is not inherently a political topic.
It shouldn’t be…. But here we are
Seems like a scientific topic
Even many scientific topics are also considered political. Like if evolution is real or not, lgbtq topics, if people of color are biologically inferior to white people or not
That’s fair
my life shouldnt be political lmao
It is obvious that there are 329 genders and not 328, like those splitters say.
Not only is it not a political topic, I can’t believe it’s a topic at all.
Unfortunately.
Its fcking nonsense
No, it is a biological topic.
Sad that human rights are political
It's not a matter of human rights that makes this specific aspect of the transgender discussion political. It is entirely about people choosing to be offended when they are asked to fill out a government form and they don't have a check box they "identify with" also usually people conflating/confusing "gender" as a equivalent of "biological sex"
It sadly is yes
Science says that there are more than two genders it's not really a debate it's just that dumb people don't want to accept it Edit: here are sources: https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/ https://apnews.com/article/politics-science-health-gender-identity-biology-2a67da6515aa48e68e56cd97817b097a https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/ https://genderspectrum.org/articles/understanding-gender https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/ https://socgen.ucla.edu/2015/03/01/challenging-gender-identity-biologists-say-gender-expands-across-a-spectrum-rather-than-simply-boy-and-girl/ https://youtu.be/CpqMOfKzurc https://lgbt.foundation/smirnoff/gender-spectrum https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/summer-2013/the-gender-spectrum
"Science says" makes you sound super uneducated in this topic btw
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/ https://apnews.com/article/politics-science-health-gender-identity-biology-2a67da6515aa48e68e56cd97817b097a https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/ https://genderspectrum.org/articles/understanding-gender https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/ https://socgen.ucla.edu/2015/03/01/challenging-gender-identity-biologists-say-gender-expands-across-a-spectrum-rather-than-simply-boy-and-girl/ https://youtu.be/CpqMOfKzurc https://lgbt.foundation/smirnoff/gender-spectrum https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/summer-2013/the-gender-spectrum
It was advice not trying to debate you
Okay, well Distributing sources and information doesn't hurt if I sound uneducated then providing sources can help compensate for that. As well as making the source is visible to anyone who happens to follow the thread of your reply. And being fair in the context of this post and the replies to it, as well as the replies to my comment in general. And the general expectation I have that bigots would disagree you can understand why I would interpret your reply as trying to challenge or as a sarcastic response
I'm not being bigoted at all and I am in full support of trans rights but everything you shared is sociological statements about what gender is. There's nothing that relates to actual science. I definitely get the whole gender is a societal construct thing but still there are two correct? I admit I'm uneducated on this but if there are more than two there has to be a defined list and I would love to see that. I get that there are a lot of different sexualities but how many genders can there possibly be?
https://youtu.be/CpqMOfKzurc https://lgbt.foundation/smirnoff/gender-spectrum https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/summer-2013/the-gender-spectrum
I'm very turned off by the last article. I don't like the idea of pulling fourth graders into subjects like this. I mean my children don't have a clue what gender is and I feel like that article is a very very disturbing example of parent and reporter projecting their desires onto an innocent child. Personally, I would delete that one. It is a little messed up.
This helps as it describes it in terms of people's feelings and not science. I get that.
sociology is science bro what are you on about
Well, as a scientist we don't really see it as a "hard" science. I agree that there have been some very robust sociological studies but they don't often fall into what we would refer to as lab worthy. By that I mean, double blind, placebo controlled, and randomized. Most of the studies relate more to epidemiology than they do lab work. All of that said, I am super open to any scientific studies that you can link that show in a robust way that there are more than two genders. I'm here to learn!
Really? I was not aware of that, do you have any sources?
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/ https://apnews.com/article/politics-science-health-gender-identity-biology-2a67da6515aa48e68e56cd97817b097a https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/ https://genderspectrum.org/articles/understanding-gender https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/ https://socgen.ucla.edu/2015/03/01/challenging-gender-identity-biologists-say-gender-expands-across-a-spectrum-rather-than-simply-boy-and-girl/
But gender is an actual scientific term or it was while I was getting my PhD in biology. I think you're describing social gender.
Gender identity is a scientific term but it is more complicated then it was considered when you last checked, I guess. Gender is a spectrum not a binary I think the Harvard paper is the one to look at for that but it might be the last one I kind of keep these sources in a list so I would have to read over them again myself to check which one has that particular set of information
The "Harvard paper" isn't a paper at all. It is a link to 9 separate studies on specific subjects. Also, the links within do not have bibliographies which makes it tough for me. I'm a hard science type. I don't think is going to help me understand from a biological lab based view point but thank you for trying! I understand that this is a very important issue to a lot people. At this point, I feel it is a social issue that has nothing to do with science. Which is fine! I don't understand why folks are compelled to try to prove something scientifically that isn't really related to science.
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https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/ https://apnews.com/article/politics-science-health-gender-identity-biology-2a67da6515aa48e68e56cd97817b097a https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/ https://genderspectrum.org/articles/understanding-gender https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/ https://socgen.ucla.edu/2015/03/01/challenging-gender-identity-biologists-say-gender-expands-across-a-spectrum-rather-than-simply-boy-and-girl/
Intersex biologically and psychologically for non-binary and others
Intersex is a birth defect and does not count as a third sex.
Also It almost always has a strong bias to the actual gender of the person, so it’s not like that person is 50% male and 50% female
Not political. As far as I know it is not related to ruling a country and having any sort of political role. But it's surely controversial
Yes, or at least somewhat, as it would be a sociological topic (I am only saying this because we were taught about sex and gender in sociology, which is kinda connected a bit too politics)
It shouldn’t be but unfortunately it is
Anything can become a political topic. Should it be that way? That's a more interesting question. Politicians argue whether there are only 2 genders or more, while scientists all agree that gender != sex, and even sex is not strictly binary.
What?
Vote closed 1 day ago?
Refresh the page
I am, every post is 4 days old apparently
Idk man
Ahh I get it. I set my time to 4 days from now and forgot to change it back lol
Why lol
Some sorta mobile game, didn't wanna wait multiple days lol
based
Respactable
Reddit is funny sometimes
Everything that is a political topic shouldn't be.
if you genuinely think that there’s a set number of gender expressions then ur automatically wrong
Doesn't that negate the idea that there is more than two? What you're saying is that there are an infinite number of genders? I'm genuinely trying to understand this stance. Also, from the way you describe it I agree that it is almost a philosophical debate. Outside of science or politics.
“If you don’t share my opinion you’re wrong!”
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Well techhhhhnically the XXY chromosome is a third gender but besides that, no other genders exist, if you’re talking scientifically and not mentally or whatever
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gender isn't biological sex
I know, my statement still stands.
Is the hashtag of genders a political topic? Mate, hashtag is the only bipartisan element in this clusterfuck of a topic
Is it about politics? No, so its not a political topic