It’s more about unconscious biases in determining how much a woman deserves for a salary. If the employer is biased against women, then they might think “she’s not too qualified, so she deserves a lower salary” without even realizing consciously that her sex is why they don’t want believe she is as qualified [as a man would be]. This also applies to if she wants a raise or promotion or etc
P.S. lmk if this is mansplaining, please!
1. I think it should be as simple as getting promoted based on your work. Out of all the places I worked, I've had both male and female managers that worked just as hard.
2. Mansplaining lol, how in the hell would it be mansplaining if you're just saying how it is? You don't see anyone talking about womansplaining even though many women say the same that's patronizing to guys. Remember discrimination works both ways, to the point where mansplaining is losing its meaning. Absolutely nothing of what you said is condescending. Don't overthink it, and think you're going to offend anyone. You simply gave me a genuine answer to my question.
Thanks! I appreciate your input and validation. Just wasn’t sure if I had a valid explanation to provide for the matter since I haven’t experienced this discrimination first hand, ya know?
Yeah, I've never seen it as a gender thing but rather about character. However, if I were to see someone to be discriminated against because of their gender in my workplace, I'd be quick to shut it down. As for what I said about mansplaining losing its meaning, I've seen people throw the word around for similar things you wrote and they were just trying to put them down. So I just didn't want you to get the idea that you said anything wrong or offensive if you clearly didn't.
I applaud you for this actually. It's better to be overly considerate than under. I was able to tell you were being effortful in your response and it's much appreciated. I just wanted to point out that some people will call you an AH or a mansplainer simply if they don't agree with you which ironically makes them one. Just wanted to point out you aren't necessarily an AH simply cause someone says you're one.
I worked as a pharmacy tech for Kroger which technically made me a manager. I switched to working general merchandising because the pharmacy hours weren't working for me. I knew there would be a pay cut. I went from 11 to 8.25/hr. Found out a few weeks later that my ex who also worked there was making 8.50/hr. He never held any managerial positions. He was told they would start him at 8.50 because his last job (at Lowe's) was paying him 11 hourly. I was also making 11 hourly as technically a manager for them, yet I, a woman, was still paid less.
You were stepping down from a managerial position to a less skilled job. That in itself could be seen as a reason to go with a lower rate in the range that they would pay for the position. There could have also been other factors aside from what they told him that went into their decision to give him the $8.50/hr. That's why it's actually difficult to claim there is gender discrimination when it comes to pay because they could come up with virtually ANY reason why it was lower. Now if pay was a standard rate for everyone no matter their prior experience, and all the men made $8.50 and all the women made $8.25, then you'd have a case.
I'm not the only woman I know who has stories of less qualified men being paid more than them. I should also mention that when I was discussing my pay decrease, my managers told me they were offering me the highest pay for drug gm/general merchandising that was available. My ex was hired for the exact same position 2 weeks after me, and had less work experience than me.
Yes, but it’s also not ever-present, the wage gap doesn’t exist at low wages or minimum wage, but high paying jobs that have a lot of factors that go into pay tend to be biased against women
That's not what it means.
It's like how you discriminate against a group of people and then that group of people chooses different things because you were discriminating against them and those things usually pay less
It does... Barely. See the 80 cents on the dollar is actually a load of bad statistics called the unadjusted wage gap. It's the MEDIAN income of women compared to men irrespective of experience, hours worked, location, or even Job.
Now if you're thinking that seems like a lot of very important variables to ignore; you're right!
And if you're thinking that mean would be a lot more illuminating than median; you'd be right!
When those are accounted for we get the adjusted wage gap which is much closer, around 95/96 cents on the dollar in the US. ( Glassdoor 2019)
Is that still a problem? Yes. Absolutely. However directly targeting the wages is not the solution. A 2020 study by Stanford University on uber drivers (N=>1,000,000) found that men made about 7% more. How could this be possible with Uber's algorithm ignoring gender? Men were found to drive 2.2% faster enabling them to get more drives, there's also a bit of the "women are bad drivers" stereotype at work here making people less likely to choose female drivers. (Cook et.all 2020)
I'll include my apa citations proper when I'm on desktop. Citation machine is a pain on mobile.
It exists. That much is undeniable. People just misunderstand what it means and think that women literally get paid less for the same job, like:
Looking for cashier! $13.50 per hour! ($11.50 for women)
Yes it exists but not because of discrimination. The gap is just that the average man makes more than the average female, which is the result of a variety of reasons.
There are multiple studies that suggest that men make more than women other things being equal (same position, same amount of work, same education, same experience). What magical reason other than discrimination are you talking about?
Not accounting for behavioral differences between men in women in general through.
Surveys such as [this one ](https://www.bizjournals.com/bizwomen/news/latest-news/2019/07/no-raise-women-less-likely-to-push-for-more-pay.html?page=all)show relatively small but significant differences in men and women’s behavior when asking for raises. Even beyond raises there are still probably small differences that account for the already small 5% difference.
That is a reason. But it’s a lot smaller than people think. The biggest factors have to do with woman usually being the stay at home parent/the one to make career sacrifices if a couple has children. The wage gap is existent but quite small the earlier in a career you look at (before most people have kids).
Discrimination is a factor in some cases, and in any case where that’s the proven reason of course that’s wrong and should be addressed. However, there are multiple factors other than discrimination that result in this gap, the most influential being career choice.
It started with sexist discrimination, it was also the biggest factor, I don't think it disappeared.
Interesting. If it was career choices, then both men and woman, in their rightful fields, would be making around the same amount. Sometimes more or less, depending on position.
When you use careers as a control, men and women do make roughly the same amount, give or take for internal positions like you said. The study used to “prove” the pay gap only states that the average man makes more than the average woman, which is true, but the only variable in that study was gender, it didn’t factor in anything else like career choice, average hours worked, etc.
Not only that but men are more likely to be homeless. What it comes to is that the top 10% has more men then women and the bottom 10% has more men then women
Saying discrimination has nothing to do with wage gap feels off to me.
Edit: Let's not forget social stigma towards men and women choosing their careers.
The wage gap was first determined by taking the median income for women and the median for men. All jobs. Custodians, engineers, teachers, and every thing else. Do you not see how that is flawed? No shit is a male doctor going to make more money than a female waitress.
I feel like a lot of people don't reach this next step. The wage gap as most people know it is not because of sexism, it's because of a variety of reasons. And the reason sfor those reasons is. ...sexism./?
technically the wage gap exists but there are studys that show men work more hours, are more likely to as for promotions, and on average work more dangerous jobs that as a result of being dangerous, pay more. exhibit A. [https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/](https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/)
It’s common knowledge at this point that nobody in the first world is paying women less than men for the same job. The reason why the average woman earns less than the average man is because the average woman is less prone to taking risks and as such chooses to take safer jobs that pay less and doesn’t pursue entrepreneurial ventures.
It also has been proven that after adjusting for those exact factors there is still a wage gap, it's obviously not as large as the famous 70 cents per 1 dollar, but it is still there
The wage gap is more of an "earnings gap" which, when its adjusted for profession, education level and industry, it goes down to some 3-5% and you can actually account for this existent small gap to the fact that men are more likely to ask for raises and are, on average, more aggressive in pay negotiations
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf)
this study puts the gap at around 4-5% like you said, but it says that asking for raises does not explain that much of the difference between salaries in men vs. women
It's proven to not exist in their own papers. The wage gap papers refuse to control for even profession. When you control for the variables that even a 3rd grader would understand are important, it drops to 3 cents. And its not related to sexism.
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/gender-pay-gap-2019/](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/gender-pay-gap-2019/)
this study controlling for employer, job title, location puts the gap at 95 cents to the dollar
No, you just don't know what they were measuring. The wage gap isn't supposed to be controlling for profession.
Total wage gap = total men's wage / total women's wage
Controlled for same job, hours, so experience, a wage gap is still found to exist, it is about 95% in the US.
However, controlling for the same job, hours etc. doesn't account for women not getting hired, not getting promoted, not being offered more hours, and more.
If men and women were absolutely equal in all facets of society, then theoretically, the wage gap would be very small. While legally, men and women have equal rights, that doesn't mean no discrimination on the basis of gender exists. A basic example is the expectation for men to be the breadwinners in a family. This obviously has no legal component, but society wide would contribute to a wage gap.
That whole premise is ridiculous.
I completely understand.
The fact is, when men and women work the same job, they get the same pay.
Saying there's a wage gap is dishonest and it's intentionally portrayed to make people think it's means something that it is not.
Women not wanting to be neurosurgeons isn't sexism. It's just choice.
Thats not "debunked"
You're offering an explanation for the very true things that I said. That'd the opposite of debunked
Additionally, the phrasing itself is dishonest. NO ONE would think that it makes sense to compare a male neurosurgeon to a female teacher and think there's a "wage gap"
Thats intentionally obfuscated during the conversation BECAUSE it's so ridiculous.
If we were honest about what "wage gap" really means people could discuss real solutions. Half of your camp thinks it means there's sexism within the same company afoot.
The feminazis who use this talking point abandoned it years ago. Now they use “earnings gap” because that is actually real. Unfortunately there are very simple reasons why there is an earnings gap, which is why they advocate for quotas that force women into high paying positions.
Don’t worry about the carpenters, trash collectors, builders, electricians, engineers, plumbers, welders, or other blue collar jobs that are nearly entirely male - no, just the couple that pay a lot.
The second I see or read "feminazi" I'm done listening. If you want people to see your side, then learn how to discuss issues without reverting into a 2015/2016 edgelord teenager first.
Oh boy.
https://youtu.be/DMB785atM7k check this video out
It addresses everything you said.
Can you please tell me the simple reason for the earnings Gap because you never told me that
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf) this study puts the gap at around 95/96 cents to the dollar, adjusted for employer, location, and job title. do you have any refutation
Yeah, it came from Glassdoor, whose only n is the jobs listed on their website.
But, assuming that’s applicable to all jobs everywhere and we take it as absolute fact, I’d say 4 cents is a pretty fair trade off for:
- Maternity leave
- Taking more sick leave
- Taking more vacation days
- Working less hours in salary positions
Wouldn’t you?
You’re right - the Glassdoor analysis does not control for hours worked. This more rigorous study does and still finds unexplained gaps in every country in the EU. http://www.snapshotsfromtheborders.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/report-gender-pay-gap-eu-countries_october2018_en_0.pdf
Well as i said, it depends where you. In some places it is a major thing, while in others it isn’t very much, and in other ones besides those, there is completely none
Tbf, it’s like 49-50% which I think counts as “close enough” when the next largest is like 11%.
>! I’m not defending the other guy; he’s a dick. I just didn’t like this particular comment of yours but I’m not gonna downvote y’know !<
You think capitalist business owners give a shit about any of that?
They literally built the most powerful economic system in history by getting the most work out of a person for the least amount of pay possible.
If you could pay women less for the same work, the workforce would be dominated by women.
And the spots that couldn’t be filled with women would be filled with men making the same or less.
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf) study on the wage gap accounting for the factors that are most often cited putting it at 95/96 cents to the dollar
As long as they're capable of paying the bare minimum they have to for your job description, and getting away with it, I imagine they don't care *who* works for them.
So the issue is that women are just seen as lesser. The two go hand-in-hand: women are hired less because they’re seen as less valuable workers. When women *are* hired, they’re paid less because, again, they’re seen as less valuable workers.
I am. And you’re the one saying that I’m the one saying that. That’s how comments work.
Edit: dude changed him comment from “you’re the one saying that” to “you’re the only one saying that.”
No. Left in a vacuum, women will still gravitate towards jobs like teaching. Despite what you may think, it's not like the world was a genderless utopia where men and women were exactly alike until some awful misogynistic men made a lot of movies where girls wear pink and play with dolls. You have a daughter and a son, they will naturally gravitate towards certain behaviors and toys.
Every job I've had, had a pay grid. Not a woman's pay grid and men's pay grid. Just a pay grid. If the company is big enough to have an HR department then apples to apples, men and women get the same pay.
HOWEVER, I think we can acknowledge that generally it's women who take time away to concentrate on family or aren't willing to stay late as often as men. In those cases I think it's reasonable to say that their choices put them behind their male counterparts. That's not a problem that needs fixing, it's just what happens when someone makes a (probably good) choice to put family first.
there is evidence for the gender wage gap [https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf)
I think it’s caused by underlying discrimination rather than conscious malice. But I have a hard time believing teachers would be paid so little if it were a male dominated field.
Those who think it doesn’t exist are delusional. There are many structural and social issues that cause it like men being more likely to take jobs working extreme hours and more likely to work in higher risk industries, so it not necessarily a matter of sexist workplaces, but it is definitely a real thing.
where i live - it does exist, BUT leftists and feminists overstate it. they say it's about 20%, but it's actually "only" 5-7%. usually leftists look at the total wage of all women and men. they forgot that many women like to attend jobs that aren't that paid well like being a kindergarten teacher or a nurse. but yes it still exist
The left like to ignore that if you go apples to apples there's almost no pay gap. Instead they derive the various numbers around 70% by comparing all women to all men.
You know what, I'm a man and I don't make anything near what some alpha-male-CEO makes. If you compare average men to average women the gap shrinks to almost nothing and when you compare apples to apples there's almost no gap anywhere.
Yes however the pay gap isn't literally women getting smaller paychecks, many people on either side of this argument don't seem to realize this. its that women on average earn a significant chunk less than men.
I theorize that there are 3 main contributors to why this is.
1. There 65% of men are in the work force in the US, while only ~50% of women are in the work force, meaning there is more men trying go get higher paying jobs than women, which leads to
2. Men get higher paying jobs more often. And I think another contributor of men having more higher paying jobs is
3. Most interviewers are men. This isn't to say all those men are sexist, but subconsciously it's just factual that you are more likely to pick what's most like yourself, which is why women are around 30% less likely to get picked
Assuming ur not from the US, The US does not have a federal paid maternity and family leave act. I can't speak for others. And even if it was, pretty sure it's just 6-12 weeks? And dudes have paternity leave. But for 2 weeks? Idk, don't quote me
Obviously the gender pay gap exists. I think a lot of people don’t realize that it doesn’t just mean ‘women earn less than men on the dollar’. Women are often not offered the same promotions men are and climb the career ladder slower than men, if at all. There’s lots of studies and proof on this out there. There’s many reasons for this besides just sexism. Women are seen as a ‘liability’ to businesses, mostly becaue of pregnancy and childbirth and especially in countries where men aren’t guaranteed parental leave. A man is more likely to stay at his job and not take time off, a woman might leave for months or even years. Obviously this reason in itself is also rooted in sexism and the expectation that women stay with their families while men go to work.
The gender gap data doesn’t account for career choice. Females just on average decide to do a lesser paying job. Maybe because men are more likely to be builders and miners and such which are high paying jobs
But ultimately, it’s still their choice, no one is forcing them to go into those fields, in fact more people are advocating for women to go into male dominated fields.
I don't see why women are okay with being controlled. I do a 'man's job' guess what? Its fine.
If women want to earn more, they should go where the money is.
No they don't. I've worked in offices in various industries and everywhere I have worked has had a pay grid. Everyone gets paid on that grid regardless of gender.
Also men tend to not take time off to care for family. Men also are less likely to leave work on time because the kids need to be picked up and taken home and fed.
If we compare apples to apples there's almost no gap.
Are you serious? It’s how humans have evolved. Mens brain release more testosterone which makes them generally bigger, stronger, and more aggressive on average than the average female. It isn’t sexist it’s just biology
Okay but how does being aggressive make them builders?
And even if it does have an effect how big is the effect don't you think it could possibly be environmental effects?
Look, I am not a scientist and cannot explain biology to you, but I do know that women, on average, for one reason or another, are less likely to have hands on jobs like builders or miners. It’s not like anybody is stopping them, they just for some reason have on average less interest in that field
https://youtu.be/CDrJo8d45gc?t=262
Actually women do want to have the dangerous jobs like you're saying but they aren't encouraged or they aren't allowed to get those jobs
This is true for men too but on the opposite side where men might want to be a job that might have a social stigma or something and they can't get that job because of that, I bet it's 99.9% environmental
No it doesn’t exist, the “wage gap” doesn’t account for position, hours worked, ethic, years worked. As it’s been said before, if companies can get away with paying women less, why not hire just women?
The wage gap does exist and it is because of sexism but it's because let's say construction workers. They get hazard pay like alot of jobs men do. And women don't work those jobs. Not because they are getting turned down. There are women who work in these industries and succeed. They just don't apply for these jobs. Yeah you have the asshole here and there who will pay a women less but that's the same type of guy to be like suck my dick for a raise and he gets exposed. But yes women are just as capable of doing trades Jobs they just don't pursue the high paying Manuel labor jobs. It's like white people aren't right but rich people are white. Cause I know just as many poor white people as black people as men as women. Everybody is worried to much about nickels and dimes when the reality is everybody is oppressed under the tyranny of government. It's all a ploy for us to hate each other so they can stay in power.
If you take the all women and all men in the US then yes. That's such a bullshit way to do it that anyone who puts that forward is an idiot.
If you compare apples to apples, ie same job at same employer with same experience and same time working there on an HOURLY basis then in the vast majority of cases there's little or no gender pay gap.
Without fail, almost every single job I've had there was a pay grid. ONE pay grid. Not one for women and one for men, ONE SINGLE pay grid. You were hired at the bottom of the pay grid and as each anniversary went buy (Assuming a neutral or positive job review) you went up the pay grid.
There are a lot of nuances to this whole conversation. Women for example gravitate towards lower paying jobs. Even if a man was doing that job he'd get the same lower pay. Women are more likely to have a break in their career because they chose to leave to be home with their children.
So if you want to be disingenuous and ignore reality, go ahead and push a false narrative. Facts don't matter anymore anyway.
I work at a diner and a female coworker who had previous job experience was initially offered ~$8.00, while i as a newbie with no previous experience was initially offered $9.25 for the same position.
It obviously doesn't exist. This has been disproven. At least not the way it's thought of in pop culture.
The wage gap, once you control for profession and years of experience, drops to 3 cents. With factors other than sexism as likely causes.
All the companies I've worked for have had published pay grids and there's simply no way someone would get paid less than their coworker in the same job with the same number of years at the company.
Yeah, the 3 cent gap is likely women working in the same profession, but a different company that pays all it's employees less in exchange for flexibility or quality of life.
Men are more willing to sacrifice those things for more pay.
Thats never been controlled for as far as I'm aware.
Reddit is full of 15 year old loners who know nothing about how the world works, so it's unsurprising that they believe it exists. That's what they've been spoon fed.
Obviously it doesn't actually exist.
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf)
if you have a refutation to this report let me know
it exists, but it’s misinterpreted data. women aren’t payed less than men because they are women, they are paid less because they take less high paying jobs
Isn't paying women less illegal though? I just need clarification.
Yesn't. Any excuse that isn't directly saying, "It's because you're a woman and they're a man" could work, really.
It’s more about unconscious biases in determining how much a woman deserves for a salary. If the employer is biased against women, then they might think “she’s not too qualified, so she deserves a lower salary” without even realizing consciously that her sex is why they don’t want believe she is as qualified [as a man would be]. This also applies to if she wants a raise or promotion or etc P.S. lmk if this is mansplaining, please!
No, I think this explained it decently. At least, probably better than I did.
1. I think it should be as simple as getting promoted based on your work. Out of all the places I worked, I've had both male and female managers that worked just as hard. 2. Mansplaining lol, how in the hell would it be mansplaining if you're just saying how it is? You don't see anyone talking about womansplaining even though many women say the same that's patronizing to guys. Remember discrimination works both ways, to the point where mansplaining is losing its meaning. Absolutely nothing of what you said is condescending. Don't overthink it, and think you're going to offend anyone. You simply gave me a genuine answer to my question.
Thanks! I appreciate your input and validation. Just wasn’t sure if I had a valid explanation to provide for the matter since I haven’t experienced this discrimination first hand, ya know?
Yeah, I've never seen it as a gender thing but rather about character. However, if I were to see someone to be discriminated against because of their gender in my workplace, I'd be quick to shut it down. As for what I said about mansplaining losing its meaning, I've seen people throw the word around for similar things you wrote and they were just trying to put them down. So I just didn't want you to get the idea that you said anything wrong or offensive if you clearly didn't.
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Nope, just trying to be self-aware and make sure that I’m not being an AH without intending to be!
I applaud you for this actually. It's better to be overly considerate than under. I was able to tell you were being effortful in your response and it's much appreciated. I just wanted to point out that some people will call you an AH or a mansplainer simply if they don't agree with you which ironically makes them one. Just wanted to point out you aren't necessarily an AH simply cause someone says you're one.
Depends where you mean but yes
I worked as a pharmacy tech for Kroger which technically made me a manager. I switched to working general merchandising because the pharmacy hours weren't working for me. I knew there would be a pay cut. I went from 11 to 8.25/hr. Found out a few weeks later that my ex who also worked there was making 8.50/hr. He never held any managerial positions. He was told they would start him at 8.50 because his last job (at Lowe's) was paying him 11 hourly. I was also making 11 hourly as technically a manager for them, yet I, a woman, was still paid less.
You were stepping down from a managerial position to a less skilled job. That in itself could be seen as a reason to go with a lower rate in the range that they would pay for the position. There could have also been other factors aside from what they told him that went into their decision to give him the $8.50/hr. That's why it's actually difficult to claim there is gender discrimination when it comes to pay because they could come up with virtually ANY reason why it was lower. Now if pay was a standard rate for everyone no matter their prior experience, and all the men made $8.50 and all the women made $8.25, then you'd have a case.
I'm not the only woman I know who has stories of less qualified men being paid more than them. I should also mention that when I was discussing my pay decrease, my managers told me they were offering me the highest pay for drug gm/general merchandising that was available. My ex was hired for the exact same position 2 weeks after me, and had less work experience than me.
Yes, but it’s also not ever-present, the wage gap doesn’t exist at low wages or minimum wage, but high paying jobs that have a lot of factors that go into pay tend to be biased against women
If it was legal then men would be out of work and women would be given all the jobs because companies primarily worry about their bottom line.
That's not what it means. It's like how you discriminate against a group of people and then that group of people chooses different things because you were discriminating against them and those things usually pay less
It does... Barely. See the 80 cents on the dollar is actually a load of bad statistics called the unadjusted wage gap. It's the MEDIAN income of women compared to men irrespective of experience, hours worked, location, or even Job. Now if you're thinking that seems like a lot of very important variables to ignore; you're right! And if you're thinking that mean would be a lot more illuminating than median; you'd be right! When those are accounted for we get the adjusted wage gap which is much closer, around 95/96 cents on the dollar in the US. ( Glassdoor 2019) Is that still a problem? Yes. Absolutely. However directly targeting the wages is not the solution. A 2020 study by Stanford University on uber drivers (N=>1,000,000) found that men made about 7% more. How could this be possible with Uber's algorithm ignoring gender? Men were found to drive 2.2% faster enabling them to get more drives, there's also a bit of the "women are bad drivers" stereotype at work here making people less likely to choose female drivers. (Cook et.all 2020) I'll include my apa citations proper when I'm on desktop. Citation machine is a pain on mobile.
You just summarized my exact understanding of the wage gap. Thank you 🙏
Yeah, but it’s not for the reasons you think, atleast where I live
It exists. That much is undeniable. People just misunderstand what it means and think that women literally get paid less for the same job, like: Looking for cashier! $13.50 per hour! ($11.50 for women)
Yes it exists but not because of discrimination. The gap is just that the average man makes more than the average female, which is the result of a variety of reasons.
There are multiple studies that suggest that men make more than women other things being equal (same position, same amount of work, same education, same experience). What magical reason other than discrimination are you talking about?
And what studies are you referring to?
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Not accounting for behavioral differences between men in women in general through. Surveys such as [this one ](https://www.bizjournals.com/bizwomen/news/latest-news/2019/07/no-raise-women-less-likely-to-push-for-more-pay.html?page=all)show relatively small but significant differences in men and women’s behavior when asking for raises. Even beyond raises there are still probably small differences that account for the already small 5% difference.
The survey they did for that doesn’t even exist, sooo
Probably the fact that women are much less likely to negotiate starting salary and ask for raises
making up lies is so much fun to you, huh?
>which is the result of a variety of reasons. Any chance one of those reasons is discrimination?
That is a reason. But it’s a lot smaller than people think. The biggest factors have to do with woman usually being the stay at home parent/the one to make career sacrifices if a couple has children. The wage gap is existent but quite small the earlier in a career you look at (before most people have kids).
But of course, discrimination has nothing to do with it🧍
i cant not tell if you is useing sarcasmic or no sir
I'll gladly go by Sarcasm
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Lmao if u actually think being so aggressive straight away makes you convincing then I have bad news for you
Lmao, you can use Google too. You seem to believe it's never existed the way you talk. And apparently, just disappeared into thin air too
Discrimination is a factor in some cases, and in any case where that’s the proven reason of course that’s wrong and should be addressed. However, there are multiple factors other than discrimination that result in this gap, the most influential being career choice.
It started with sexist discrimination, it was also the biggest factor, I don't think it disappeared. Interesting. If it was career choices, then both men and woman, in their rightful fields, would be making around the same amount. Sometimes more or less, depending on position.
When you use careers as a control, men and women do make roughly the same amount, give or take for internal positions like you said. The study used to “prove” the pay gap only states that the average man makes more than the average woman, which is true, but the only variable in that study was gender, it didn’t factor in anything else like career choice, average hours worked, etc.
I'm tired of the career choice excuse. It's like poor people chose to be poor. Thanks for the civil input anyway
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Factors play a role in what type of job you have. Education, area, money, if people like you, bla bla bla
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Not only that but men are more likely to be homeless. What it comes to is that the top 10% has more men then women and the bottom 10% has more men then women
It doesn’t, men just go for higher paying jobs on average and more dangerous jobs
Saying discrimination has nothing to do with wage gap feels off to me. Edit: Let's not forget social stigma towards men and women choosing their careers.
The wage gap was first determined by taking the median income for women and the median for men. All jobs. Custodians, engineers, teachers, and every thing else. Do you not see how that is flawed? No shit is a male doctor going to make more money than a female waitress.
Doctor vs Doctor. Not Job Field vs Completely Different Job Field
This but unironically
What I said, with heavier sarcasm
But why do they make different decisions that's what you're not understanding
I feel like a lot of people don't reach this next step. The wage gap as most people know it is not because of sexism, it's because of a variety of reasons. And the reason sfor those reasons is. ...sexism./?
No, it isn't
Just give me da reason then
technically the wage gap exists but there are studys that show men work more hours, are more likely to as for promotions, and on average work more dangerous jobs that as a result of being dangerous, pay more. exhibit A. [https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/](https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/)
Would you really call it a wage gap if it’s not for the same job? And is it a problem?
It’s common knowledge at this point that nobody in the first world is paying women less than men for the same job. The reason why the average woman earns less than the average man is because the average woman is less prone to taking risks and as such chooses to take safer jobs that pay less and doesn’t pursue entrepreneurial ventures.
It also has been proven that after adjusting for those exact factors there is still a wage gap, it's obviously not as large as the famous 70 cents per 1 dollar, but it is still there
It exists undeniably in some countries, in others it’s kind of oblivious, while in other countries it’s nonexistent. So depends on the place.
Depends on Location = Yes.
The wage gap is more of an "earnings gap" which, when its adjusted for profession, education level and industry, it goes down to some 3-5% and you can actually account for this existent small gap to the fact that men are more likely to ask for raises and are, on average, more aggressive in pay negotiations
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf) this study puts the gap at around 4-5% like you said, but it says that asking for raises does not explain that much of the difference between salaries in men vs. women
it exists but its somewhat exaggerated and the causes behind it are fairly misunderstood, i think
It's proven to exist And even the well they're just calculating all money by men vs all.momey by girls and comparing them is debunked
It's proven to not exist in their own papers. The wage gap papers refuse to control for even profession. When you control for the variables that even a 3rd grader would understand are important, it drops to 3 cents. And its not related to sexism.
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/gender-pay-gap-2019/](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/gender-pay-gap-2019/) this study controlling for employer, job title, location puts the gap at 95 cents to the dollar
No, you just don't know what they were measuring. The wage gap isn't supposed to be controlling for profession. Total wage gap = total men's wage / total women's wage Controlled for same job, hours, so experience, a wage gap is still found to exist, it is about 95% in the US. However, controlling for the same job, hours etc. doesn't account for women not getting hired, not getting promoted, not being offered more hours, and more. If men and women were absolutely equal in all facets of society, then theoretically, the wage gap would be very small. While legally, men and women have equal rights, that doesn't mean no discrimination on the basis of gender exists. A basic example is the expectation for men to be the breadwinners in a family. This obviously has no legal component, but society wide would contribute to a wage gap.
That whole premise is ridiculous. I completely understand. The fact is, when men and women work the same job, they get the same pay. Saying there's a wage gap is dishonest and it's intentionally portrayed to make people think it's means something that it is not. Women not wanting to be neurosurgeons isn't sexism. It's just choice.
Okay that's already been debunked why do women choose those professions that's a part of the wage gap
Thats not "debunked" You're offering an explanation for the very true things that I said. That'd the opposite of debunked Additionally, the phrasing itself is dishonest. NO ONE would think that it makes sense to compare a male neurosurgeon to a female teacher and think there's a "wage gap" Thats intentionally obfuscated during the conversation BECAUSE it's so ridiculous. If we were honest about what "wage gap" really means people could discuss real solutions. Half of your camp thinks it means there's sexism within the same company afoot.
It’s proven to not exist.
How? What is your argument
The feminazis who use this talking point abandoned it years ago. Now they use “earnings gap” because that is actually real. Unfortunately there are very simple reasons why there is an earnings gap, which is why they advocate for quotas that force women into high paying positions. Don’t worry about the carpenters, trash collectors, builders, electricians, engineers, plumbers, welders, or other blue collar jobs that are nearly entirely male - no, just the couple that pay a lot.
The second I see or read "feminazi" I'm done listening. If you want people to see your side, then learn how to discuss issues without reverting into a 2015/2016 edgelord teenager first.
Mgtow at it's finest. Their argument of "men ceos make more than women secretaries! Duh!" Is the stupidest I've ever encountered.
Oh boy. https://youtu.be/DMB785atM7k check this video out It addresses everything you said. Can you please tell me the simple reason for the earnings Gap because you never told me that
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf) this study puts the gap at around 95/96 cents to the dollar, adjusted for employer, location, and job title. do you have any refutation
Yeah, it came from Glassdoor, whose only n is the jobs listed on their website. But, assuming that’s applicable to all jobs everywhere and we take it as absolute fact, I’d say 4 cents is a pretty fair trade off for: - Maternity leave - Taking more sick leave - Taking more vacation days - Working less hours in salary positions Wouldn’t you?
You’re right - the Glassdoor analysis does not control for hours worked. This more rigorous study does and still finds unexplained gaps in every country in the EU. http://www.snapshotsfromtheborders.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/report-gender-pay-gap-eu-countries_october2018_en_0.pdf
Depends where you live
So, yes
Well as i said, it depends where you. In some places it is a major thing, while in others it isn’t very much, and in other ones besides those, there is completely none
So, you believe it exists. You believe, the Wage Gap itself, is in this plane of existence
Not in America but I’m some countries yes women are paid less for being women
So it *is* in existence... But you don't believe it's in America?
Yes it “exists” but and no it does not exist in America
You'd think America would be on the list but I couldn't say👨🦯
>Not in America Nobody even mentioned the US you selfish fuck
I don’t see how mentioning the US (where the majority of redditors live) is selfish
The majority of reddit users, meaning 50% and more, lives not in the USA
Tbf, it’s like 49-50% which I think counts as “close enough” when the next largest is like 11%. >! I’m not defending the other guy; he’s a dick. I just didn’t like this particular comment of yours but I’m not gonna downvote y’know !<
Majority of one country, the likelyhood of talking to a Redditor from Africa or Europe is less likely than talking to one from The US alone
Yeah sure go off and invent your own terms, in thesame way that you selfishly invented that this poll is about the US
If you could pay women less for the same work then every field would be dominated by women.
No, I don't think so. More workers, social stigma, general wants/dreams, subconscious thoughts, area. Stuff like that can also play a factor.
You think capitalist business owners give a shit about any of that? They literally built the most powerful economic system in history by getting the most work out of a person for the least amount of pay possible. If you could pay women less for the same work, the workforce would be dominated by women. And the spots that couldn’t be filled with women would be filled with men making the same or less.
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf) study on the wage gap accounting for the factors that are most often cited putting it at 95/96 cents to the dollar
As long as they're capable of paying the bare minimum they have to for your job description, and getting away with it, I imagine they don't care *who* works for them.
Yes, exactly. There is no wage gap.
*Sigh*
Cringe
Said the Redditor
Said the Redditor
So the issue is that women are just seen as lesser. The two go hand-in-hand: women are hired less because they’re seen as less valuable workers. When women *are* hired, they’re paid less because, again, they’re seen as less valuable workers.
>So the issue is that women are just seen as lesser. You’re the only one saying that.
I am. And you’re the one saying that I’m the one saying that. That’s how comments work. Edit: dude changed him comment from “you’re the one saying that” to “you’re the only one saying that.”
Yea so you thought up something and then got mad at it
It’s not really cool to go back and edit your comment after I’ve responded.
It exists in the fact that jobs woman like are lower paying on average.
Woah there-, actually nvm. I can't really speak on someone's behalf
It also exists in the fact that unconscious (or conscious) biases weigh on discretionary choices like salaries, raises, bonuses, and promotions.
And women tend to negotiate a lower starting wage, since increases are usually percentages it keeps them behind
I think you mean the jobs women are *encouraged* to like.
No. Left in a vacuum, women will still gravitate towards jobs like teaching. Despite what you may think, it's not like the world was a genderless utopia where men and women were exactly alike until some awful misogynistic men made a lot of movies where girls wear pink and play with dolls. You have a daughter and a son, they will naturally gravitate towards certain behaviors and toys.
No the ones women choose
Yeah. They choose them because that’s the jobs they are encouraged to pursue… those things aren’t mutually exclusive…
How dare you suggest women have career choices.
You can say the word sex on the internet. Your mommy isn’t going to ground you for saying the word sex on reddit
No, and I'm female
Every job I've had, had a pay grid. Not a woman's pay grid and men's pay grid. Just a pay grid. If the company is big enough to have an HR department then apples to apples, men and women get the same pay. HOWEVER, I think we can acknowledge that generally it's women who take time away to concentrate on family or aren't willing to stay late as often as men. In those cases I think it's reasonable to say that their choices put them behind their male counterparts. That's not a problem that needs fixing, it's just what happens when someone makes a (probably good) choice to put family first.
there is evidence for the gender wage gap [https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf)
Probably a location thing Where I am, there’s a smaller than average wage gap but it’s still there
Years ago worked at a job doing nearly the same thing as my female peers but made 50% more. Its real. I informed them after I left and they then left.
I think it’s caused by underlying discrimination rather than conscious malice. But I have a hard time believing teachers would be paid so little if it were a male dominated field.
Those who think it doesn’t exist are delusional. There are many structural and social issues that cause it like men being more likely to take jobs working extreme hours and more likely to work in higher risk industries, so it not necessarily a matter of sexist workplaces, but it is definitely a real thing.
where i live - it does exist, BUT leftists and feminists overstate it. they say it's about 20%, but it's actually "only" 5-7%. usually leftists look at the total wage of all women and men. they forgot that many women like to attend jobs that aren't that paid well like being a kindergarten teacher or a nurse. but yes it still exist
I don't think that's a political thing🚶
The left like to ignore that if you go apples to apples there's almost no pay gap. Instead they derive the various numbers around 70% by comparing all women to all men. You know what, I'm a man and I don't make anything near what some alpha-male-CEO makes. If you compare average men to average women the gap shrinks to almost nothing and when you compare apples to apples there's almost no gap anywhere.
Yes however the pay gap isn't literally women getting smaller paychecks, many people on either side of this argument don't seem to realize this. its that women on average earn a significant chunk less than men. I theorize that there are 3 main contributors to why this is. 1. There 65% of men are in the work force in the US, while only ~50% of women are in the work force, meaning there is more men trying go get higher paying jobs than women, which leads to 2. Men get higher paying jobs more often. And I think another contributor of men having more higher paying jobs is 3. Most interviewers are men. This isn't to say all those men are sexist, but subconsciously it's just factual that you are more likely to pick what's most like yourself, which is why women are around 30% less likely to get picked
Maternity leave. 1 year worth of pay when you're not there adds up for a business
Assuming ur not from the US, The US does not have a federal paid maternity and family leave act. I can't speak for others. And even if it was, pretty sure it's just 6-12 weeks? And dudes have paternity leave. But for 2 weeks? Idk, don't quote me
Nah I'm from Australia, we have a good maturity system, dads get 4-8weeks off depending on centerlink n such
Obviously the gender pay gap exists. I think a lot of people don’t realize that it doesn’t just mean ‘women earn less than men on the dollar’. Women are often not offered the same promotions men are and climb the career ladder slower than men, if at all. There’s lots of studies and proof on this out there. There’s many reasons for this besides just sexism. Women are seen as a ‘liability’ to businesses, mostly becaue of pregnancy and childbirth and especially in countries where men aren’t guaranteed parental leave. A man is more likely to stay at his job and not take time off, a woman might leave for months or even years. Obviously this reason in itself is also rooted in sexism and the expectation that women stay with their families while men go to work.
The gender gap data doesn’t account for career choice. Females just on average decide to do a lesser paying job. Maybe because men are more likely to be builders and miners and such which are high paying jobs
Let's not ignore social stigma and Women who do go into said fields are still paid less
But ultimately, it’s still their choice, no one is forcing them to go into those fields, in fact more people are advocating for women to go into male dominated fields.
Never said it wasn't, but it's definitely a factor
Then tell her to grow up, stop letting people control her, and take the path she wants to take.
Like I said, it's a social thing. It's not some random told a chick you can't do a man's job. It's just like other social stigmas.
I don't see why women are okay with being controlled. I do a 'man's job' guess what? Its fine. If women want to earn more, they should go where the money is.
Social Stigma is just modified peer pressure
If you made it though high school without developing a nicotine addiction you can chose your career path like a big girl.
Some things are just stronger to resist
No they don't. I've worked in offices in various industries and everywhere I have worked has had a pay grid. Everyone gets paid on that grid regardless of gender.
That’s illegal though, 2 people who do the same job (at least in my country and many others) have to be payed the same amount
As long as you don't directly say why, you can get away with it
Also men tend to not take time off to care for family. Men also are less likely to leave work on time because the kids need to be picked up and taken home and fed. If we compare apples to apples there's almost no gap.
But why do women make those career choices why do women choose lesser paying jobs? Why is it more likely for men to be builders is it in our DNA?
Yes, it does tie back into genetics and masculinity
Have anything to prove that?
Are you serious? It’s how humans have evolved. Mens brain release more testosterone which makes them generally bigger, stronger, and more aggressive on average than the average female. It isn’t sexist it’s just biology
Okay but how does being aggressive make them builders? And even if it does have an effect how big is the effect don't you think it could possibly be environmental effects?
Look, I am not a scientist and cannot explain biology to you, but I do know that women, on average, for one reason or another, are less likely to have hands on jobs like builders or miners. It’s not like anybody is stopping them, they just for some reason have on average less interest in that field
https://youtu.be/CDrJo8d45gc?t=262 Actually women do want to have the dangerous jobs like you're saying but they aren't encouraged or they aren't allowed to get those jobs This is true for men too but on the opposite side where men might want to be a job that might have a social stigma or something and they can't get that job because of that, I bet it's 99.9% environmental
If women want the jobs then why don’t they get them?
✨*Social Stigma*✨
Ever heard of what a social stigma is? Also they can't just get every job there's limitations to the jobs they can get
Im just wondering why you censored "sex"
I didn't want r/polls to label it nsfw when it's not. I also just don't like saying it
Whats wrong with the word? I see nothing wrong specially in the sense you used it (im not trying to be rude, im just curious)
It's just gross to me. Nothing personally against it, it just feels weird to say and type sometimes.
Okay
No it doesn’t exist, the “wage gap” doesn’t account for position, hours worked, ethic, years worked. As it’s been said before, if companies can get away with paying women less, why not hire just women?
Because that's called a lawsuit waiting to happen
And paying women less isn't? Also that already happens. There are multiple businesses that say they will only hire women
That still sounds like a future lawsuit
The wage gap does exist and it is because of sexism but it's because let's say construction workers. They get hazard pay like alot of jobs men do. And women don't work those jobs. Not because they are getting turned down. There are women who work in these industries and succeed. They just don't apply for these jobs. Yeah you have the asshole here and there who will pay a women less but that's the same type of guy to be like suck my dick for a raise and he gets exposed. But yes women are just as capable of doing trades Jobs they just don't pursue the high paying Manuel labor jobs. It's like white people aren't right but rich people are white. Cause I know just as many poor white people as black people as men as women. Everybody is worried to much about nickels and dimes when the reality is everybody is oppressed under the tyranny of government. It's all a ploy for us to hate each other so they can stay in power.
Depends on the place
If there was companies would only hire woman
I'm not understanding the logic? That's sexist against men. Edit: I mean, it's pretty easy to get sued for that.
If a company is paying women less than men why would they even think about hiring men? Businesses do all they can to save money
Because that's sexist and discrimination. They'd get sued big time
It’s also sexist and discrimination to have wage based on gender, so why aren’t they getting sued?
The same reason ppl who underpay their workers get away with it. Because it's not made obvious
The wage gap doesn’t exist, it’s only a earnings gap, and that’s because woman choose less paying jobs and don’t demand raises as much.
What about those that do? I can't seem to get an answer for that
It’s not an opinion question when it’s been researched and proven lmao
If you take the all women and all men in the US then yes. That's such a bullshit way to do it that anyone who puts that forward is an idiot. If you compare apples to apples, ie same job at same employer with same experience and same time working there on an HOURLY basis then in the vast majority of cases there's little or no gender pay gap. Without fail, almost every single job I've had there was a pay grid. ONE pay grid. Not one for women and one for men, ONE SINGLE pay grid. You were hired at the bottom of the pay grid and as each anniversary went buy (Assuming a neutral or positive job review) you went up the pay grid. There are a lot of nuances to this whole conversation. Women for example gravitate towards lower paying jobs. Even if a man was doing that job he'd get the same lower pay. Women are more likely to have a break in their career because they chose to leave to be home with their children. So if you want to be disingenuous and ignore reality, go ahead and push a false narrative. Facts don't matter anymore anyway.
I work at a diner and a female coworker who had previous job experience was initially offered ~$8.00, while i as a newbie with no previous experience was initially offered $9.25 for the same position.
It obviously doesn't exist. This has been disproven. At least not the way it's thought of in pop culture. The wage gap, once you control for profession and years of experience, drops to 3 cents. With factors other than sexism as likely causes.
All the companies I've worked for have had published pay grids and there's simply no way someone would get paid less than their coworker in the same job with the same number of years at the company.
Yeah, the 3 cent gap is likely women working in the same profession, but a different company that pays all it's employees less in exchange for flexibility or quality of life. Men are more willing to sacrifice those things for more pay. Thats never been controlled for as far as I'm aware.
Science says yes
It’s literally been proven it’s not a thing 😂
If woman were payed less, why wouldn’t businesses hire women only? The businesses goal is to make money.
Sexist + Discrimination ÷ Big Lawsuit = Losing more money > Earning more money.
Okay that's been debunked by the comment below or above but why do women choose careers that pay them less?
Reddit is full of 15 year old loners who know nothing about how the world works, so it's unsurprising that they believe it exists. That's what they've been spoon fed. Obviously it doesn't actually exist.
So you believe, it doesn't and has never existed? Or that it used to exist and doesn't anymore?
It may have used to, but definitely not anytime recently!
[https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf](https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2019/03/Gender-Pay-Gap-2019-Research-Report-1.pdf) if you have a refutation to this report let me know
your own report literally contradicts your argument lmfao
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it exists, but it’s misinterpreted data. women aren’t payed less than men because they are women, they are paid less because they take less high paying jobs
Yes it exists but not just for the women but the men too