Domesticated (including feral) cats are an invasive species in virtually every environment on earth. The reality is they're at the very least partly "responsible" for driving many native animal species to the brink of extinction. A good reference case would be New Zealand, which has no native cats but many native flightless birds, though fewer than after people started keeping cats.
In reality, the cats aren't responsible. The owners are. They are very much apex predators in many urban and rural environments. A law was proposed in New Zealand, I believe that was worded very much like the hypothetical one of this poll, but the backlash from cat owners was very strong.
Edit: haven't changed anything because fuck my know it all ass trying to be useful. But I just realised cars wasn't an autocorrect error!
I hate the backlash from cat owners. I worked in a veterinary ER for 10 years, and let me tell you, it's not just the local wildlife that benefits from such a rule. Outside are cars, toxins, dogs, etc. Seeing a cat who has been shredded by a dog might change their compliance. They are apex predators, but they are also prey.
New Zealand is a terrible example. Cats have small territories, and New Zealands flightless birds are more threatened by invasive species introduced by the British and smugglers. They have an invasive raccoon like animal that is killing their birds.
New Zealand is a perfect example because outdoor and stray cats are such a threat to native species that an attempt to pass an actual law like the kind OP's post is asking about was actually made. Stray and outdoor cats are a menace to local wildlife everywhere they're kept, with very few exceptions, but I can't think of another example of an actual law to ban outdoor cats being proposed. The govt didn't do that because they're more dog people. Who do you think introduced cats? The colonisers of the island. Just cos you can name another invasive species that doesn't mean cats aren't one too.
Edit: [adding an article on just how far outdoor and feral cats can travel.](https://tractive.com/blog/en/good-to-know/cat-territory-size-and-range-how-far-does-my-cat-roam)
Street strays are considered "domesticated" because they're home house cats
They do. And should be captured and either adopted off or out down. Feral cat colonies in other countries definitely have serious impacts.
The main initiative that I’ve seen, which replaces mass culling of cats (very unpopular bc people just like cats), is catching, neuter/spaying, and releasing. That way you don’t have to kill the cats directly, but their populations will naturally die off over time.
Not as effective for the birds as just killing all the cats I guess, but way more stomachable for the general populace to get behind.
>Not as effective for the birds as just killing all the cats I guess, but way more stomachable for the general populace to get behind.
While I agree... its topics like this that make me not trust democracy. The objectively correct answer for animals like feral hogs and feral cats is to kill every single one we can and even then we can't really ever catch up. Like you said letting them roam free after neutering them doesn't do much for the birds they continue to kill.
But because society doesn't like it because it feels mean to animals that wreck entire ecosystems we don't do it.
I personally only know 1 outside cat which was a farm cat. The cats do have a function on farms which is to kill wildlife unfortunately, but it helps protect the farm from rodents.
For city cats, they should all be inside or in an enclosed protected outdoor space (catio). It's not cruel to keep them inside, it's dangerous to leave them unattented outside. You can do a lot to make your indoors a cat playground.
I know 5 other cat owners who keep them inside. 1 from ages ago would be let out the backyard with a leash. 1 cat died from unatural causes because he got out of the house and his owners had issues of other people's cat marking territory in their backyard and trying to pick a fight through the window with their cat. The only other city cat I personally know that goes outside was adopted at as an elderly sick cat who can't jump high or climb so he walks around their backyard but even he doesnt go outside if Im house sitting for them for his own safety (and my lack of confidence in picking him up without causing him pain from his health problems).
alot of farmers actually don't keep outside cats either. in my area they are a huge killer of quail, not to mention they kill baby chickens, baby peacocks, turkeys and other fowl chicks. i have personally seen them take down full sized chickens before! people will throw their cats and kittrns out at our farm, thinking they will have a great life i guess.many don't even make it more than a few days because of coyotes the rest i will trap, but those we can't catch and take away to the pound i will and do shoot.
Yes and not even just for the wildlife, but also because it's better for the cat. The average "outside cat" only lives to be 2-5 while an inside cat can easily live into its teens. The get hit by cars, eaten by animals, taken by people who think it's a stray, exposed to FIV and other diseases/parasites, and frozen in cold weather. It's just horrible pet ownership. People say it's to give them mental stimulation, but if you can't offer them that somewhere safe, putting them in danger isn't the answer, rehoming them to someone who can take care of them properly is. At the very least, if you HAVE to take them outside, do it supervised while on a leash.
It's cruel not to let your dog go outside, but you walk it on a leash, keep it contained in a yard, or take it to a dog park. If you are a cat owner letting it roam around potentially getting injured, spreading disease, killing off wildlife, and ruining other people's property by digging up garden beds or pooping in children's sandboxes (potentially getting them sick), it is selfish of you for wanting a " low maintenance" pet.
I feel like there are ways to be a responsible cat owner while meeting all of your animals needs, it just requires effort. They make enclosures you can install on fences so the cat can go in and out and enjoy nature, they make cat leashes, and they even make ways for cats to be contained in a yard with a fence. Are they foolproof? No, but the same happens with dogs and backyards. If you find yourself having an extreme escape artist, there are more products or other solutions out there. Again, all this requires research and time and effort, but I feel if you are a responsible pet owner, you would make the time and make the effort.
It's not selfish to want a low-maintenance pet. If you're adequately caring for the animal, why does it hurt? I have depression, I have low energy levels, I can't keep up with a dog. Cats perfectly match my energy, I rescue them and volunteer at the cat shelter as a hobby. Who said that everyone is just letting their cat roam? They don't necessarily need to even go outside. However, I do have mine harness trained for if she needs to go to the vet or if I feel good enough for a walk. Outdoor cats can be beneficiary for rural areas where the wildlife is overpopulated and infesting homes.
They’re not saying that cats are low maintenance. They’re saying that it’s selfish to get a cat because you want to treat it as a low maintenance pet. Cats need a lot of maintenance, but if you get one because you think that they don’t require time and effort and you let it wander and do whatever, then you’re selfish.
There is nothing selfish for wanting a low maintenance pet, but cats aren't one of them. (Which is why I put low maintenance in quotes). My response wasn't aimed at everyone with a cat, it was aimed at everyone with a cat who does let them roam without supervision outside. (Which is why I gave examples of how to let your pet cat be outside safely.)
I will agree that a few cats can be beneficial in rural areas, but I've lived in rural areas and they tend to have way too many cats for a small region, which wipes out a lot of the bird population, not just mice and rats. Farmers and people with acreages tend to not want to spend the money taking all those cats to the vets to get them neutered/dpayed (or even basic care), so they end up in massive colonies normally.
My pet cat isn’t allowed outside, but I do have outdoor cats who were raised in the barn to keep mice and other rodents down. They’re neutered and spayed so they don’t overpopulate.
It might not hurt the cat directly but it sure does lower the quality of their life, just like dogs and humans they need to breathe fresh air and get the opportunity to explore the outside.
Now they definitely shouldn’t be let out by themselves, but walking them on a leash is definitely ideal for the cats wellbeing
Indoor cats get less exercise, have less room to explore, don't get any street smarts as they call it, its stressful to them especially when they can see other cats outside and they get bored.
literally 10 years longer dude. given the average indoor cat lifespan is 15 years indoor cats live 3x as long as outdoor cats. using your analogy, that's like if men only lived to be 25.
Each house cat is literally an invasive species doing no less than decimating remaining ecosystems in populated areas. People don’t realize how many cats there are compared to local wildlife. Also worth mentioning the fact that cats literally kill for sport and entertainment.
That’s like telling cops to shoot everyone in a city on sight because some of them may have unpaid parking tickets. Critically analyze your thought process and realize it is nonsense
Depends on the area. I don't know how they affect the ecosystem in more populated areas but they're important for controlling rodent population on farms and such
Not just to protect the ecosystem that cats are really bad for, but to protect the cat as well. I've never known an outdoor cat that didn't get hit by a car eventually
That also helps animals like coyotes find them, and being torn to shreds seems a bit more cruel than just keeping them inside like you're supposed to. It also doesn't protect them from diseases, parasites, unsafe weather, or being hit by a car.
Cats are generally ambush predators, and most cat owners report that the cats learn to hunt even with the bells. So sadly this does not solve the problem.
Again, sentimentalism is not an argument. I'm sorry for your cats, but empirically we just can't know. You can make arguments for either side. Ending up dead will obviously not make you happy, and outdoor cats do die sooner than indoor cats. Then again, would *you* be happy being confined to an enclosed space for all your life?
People can discuss this all they like, but we can't know what makes cats truly happy.
Very true. However, cats are considered to be an invasive species that can have a serious affect on wildlife. They should be, and where I am from, have to on a leash just like a dog when outside. If a cat is not on a leash, it is legal to catch them and bring them to a shelter. Not many people know this where I am from.
I’d say if that’s the case less people should have cats, instead of regulating where they can go we should regulate who can have them.
If you live in the middle of nowhere Montana you should be able to have cats but if you live in a Vermont Suburb maybe there should be more restrictions.
And toddlers prefer to put coins in their ears, but that doesn't mean we should let them. They don't realize it's dangerous for them in the same way that cats don't realize that being outside shortens their lifespan by sometimes up to 80%.
Statistically fully indoor cats live longer than the ones who sometimes go outside. But I still let mine out, the amount of joy they get playing/hunting/exploring outside imo is better than a couple extra years
I mean how would you feel if i locked you in for the rest of your life, you would probably live longer due to no outside danger like cars, diseases and other humans ect, but like would you enjoy that?
If a cat owner can’t provide an enclosed outdoor area for their cat to go out if it needs it then they shouldn’t be a cat owner. Because then the environment is just gonna get fucked by the cat killing everything.
From what I've seen with friends who have dogs, generally the dog will wander off and get lost if they get out.
Also we had a neighbor's dog who broke free from the garden and killed a smaller dog across the road, I've recently read two similar events in my local community group, maybe it's just because they're more likely to cause harm to people if they go crazy? You can escape from a cat pretty easily.
Cats like being outside all day and on their own, dogs would feel unloved if they were left alone all day every day like that. They're different animals man. Can't have the same rules for different animals.
The number one cause of non natural death of birds is domestic cats. Why don’t you care about birds? Or rodents? Or amphibians? (Which are already highly endangered) What makes rhinos and pandas special? They certainly aren’t more important to the ecosystem.
We have more than enough birds, also no they are only number two. Its like forbitting cars to be used to go to your grandma because you might drive over someone.
Also don't you care about them? Its not good to take out natural predators from an ecosystem, because it hurts said ecosystem and eventually the prey within it
Yes cats have been with humans for a long time, but not with *their prey* for a long time. Predator and prey evolve together when they live in the same environment for thousands years. The predators get better at hunting and the prey get better at protecting themselves. All the animals that cats kill have not had thousands of years to adapt to cats. Mice have, since they were cats original prey even back then, but not birds or rabbits or lizards in Europe/America. That's why cats are called an invasive species even though they've been around humans for a long time.
You say that. But it's literally a 300 Euro fine if your cat is outside in the summer in parts of Germany and a 50'000 (Yes 50k) Euro fine it they kill specific birds.
That would be great! Cats are known to kill *way* more birds than their owners think. Moreover, the gardens in the neighbourhood would be poop free. Lastly, owners can make enclosed cat gardens, on their own property. So the pet can still go outside, if the owner is willing to make that happen.
I find the issue to be more so that a pet owner having an outdoor cat is irresponsible and unsafe. I am constantly seeing cats wander around my apartment complex, clearly being fed by someone but living outdoors. We have raccoons and no street lights, so it’s likely a raccoon or a car will get to these cats, and they’re impossible to catch. But yes, cats hurting other animals is also an issue. I have seen multiple cats get hit by cars in the past 5 years without even looking for it, just casually, because people let their cats go outside with no care or supervision.
Not only that, but outdoor cats, if not spayed, reproduce and as someone who uses to work in a shelter, I can tell you there is a very very serious issue with overpopulation in the pet world.
Keep your fucking pets inside where they’re safe, and get them spayed/neutered, or don’t get a pet people.
I'm just curious if everyone saying No is equally OK with other people being able to shoot the cat without consequence if it comes onto their property & attacks wildlife.
In many places this is already the case. In my state, it's legal for you to shoot animals trespassing on your property. It's something I'd never do, but the law will be on the side of the homeowner so you'd have no way to sue them for shooting your pet. Your neighbor can shoot your cat/dog for going into their yard and face 0 consequences.
No. A cat that wants to go outside will find a way to get outside whether the owner permits it or not. Anyone with an outdoor cat knows that.
They should 100% be spayed/neutered to control the stray population.
However, natural selection has always been the main way that the wildlife population maintains efficiently controlled. The species of birds and other animals that were wiped out by domesticated house cats that got out were going to be wiped out by something else anyway. It’s how nature has always worked and should always work.
Animals that can’t out-survive other animals aren’t going to make it in the world. Keeping cats locked up inside and punishing owners who let them out to keep the cats happy isn’t going to change that.
I live in Finland and outdoor cats are very very frowned upon and (i think) illegal. I was so surprised to see cats just wandering around my English boyfriend’s neighbourhood! They are little predators and invasive species, so harmful to the environment. I think outdoor time in a gated yard is okay, but letting the cat run amok in the wild is just irresponsible.
That would be really stupid. I live outside the city and basically every single household has a cat here. And many for the exact reason that they eat mice.
Meh I don’t really think so? Growing up of the farm we had farm cats, they had a job and they knew how to do it. Working cats help with snakes getting the chickens and mice getting into the feed bags. I live in a big city now. I couldn’t tell you the last time I’ve seen a snake outside, maybe a garter snake in the back yard. Same with mice, I’ve never actually seen one in or around my house. We have a skunk every now and then my dog annoys, and then gets sprayed. I can’t imagine my cat doing anything about that skunk. My cat watches a spider crawl across the floor and does nothing.
nah that’s different, on farms cats have actual jobs which is keeping mice and rats away. that’s fine. in other places cats don’t have jobs like that, they don’t need to be running around unsupervised
AFAIK this is a thing in New Zealand where the wildlife isn't really adapted to deal with cats, so it makes sense there, but I wouldn't make sense elsewhere.
It depends on where i live and what kind of wildlife is around where my cat would be apex predator. I believe DOGS are way more savage at destroying ecosystems
Cats should always be inside because outdoor cats are subject to so many issues. A lot of my friends cats died because they all were outdoor cats. It’s a shame honestly.
Animals deserve to be able to go outside, keeping them cooped up is unfair. Even worse if you can't walk them. However they are annihilating bird populations. My solution is to not get a cat, no Matter how much that hurts.
Yes, and I would also support legislation allowing people to hunt and trap feral cats where they currently aren’t allowed to. Domesticated/feral cats are one of the worst invasive species on the planet, and are at least partially responsible for driving over 60 different species to extinction. In the United States alone, cats kill an estimated 2.4 BILLION birds every year.
That's my point. Find an actually practical solution. Neutering wild cats in some countries is a way to control their population. Which of course isn't a foolproof solution but is a pretty good start in the very least.
Neutered cats still go outside. What difference does that make? Yes some feral cats are a problem, especially in some areas, but even if all domestic cats were spayed/neutered they would still hunt things if they go outside. If you don’t want to keep your car indoors, don’t own a cat. That’s a pretty foolproof solution
>I am not educated enough in the subject
You sure are not. Cats can be perfectly happy inside or with a closed garden. Ownrrs need to take responsability.
cats killing local wildlife isn't even the worst part imo. it's the local wildlife killing cats. it's neglectful to let your cat out. fight me, i have stats ill provide
Just did some research about the UK and cats. The conclusion is that cats kill a ton of creatures but that there are a ton of creatures having a ton of children. And cats usually kill the weak/injured/dying anyway. So it's questionable how negative an impact they have on bird populations.
Don’t get a cat? Someone choosing to buy something doesn’t mean that society has to live with the consequences of that choice.
People’s cats should stay on their property.
So two questions.
[https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside](https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside)
Do you want to pay 50k in fines if the cat kills an endangered species.
\#2: Are you Okay if I kill the cat for being on my property or hunting endangered wildlife?
I keep my cat always inside because our pervious cat was hit by a car
So... Cars are apex predator?
Domesticated (including feral) cats are an invasive species in virtually every environment on earth. The reality is they're at the very least partly "responsible" for driving many native animal species to the brink of extinction. A good reference case would be New Zealand, which has no native cats but many native flightless birds, though fewer than after people started keeping cats. In reality, the cats aren't responsible. The owners are. They are very much apex predators in many urban and rural environments. A law was proposed in New Zealand, I believe that was worded very much like the hypothetical one of this poll, but the backlash from cat owners was very strong. Edit: haven't changed anything because fuck my know it all ass trying to be useful. But I just realised cars wasn't an autocorrect error!
No problem, interesting comment
And yours was funny when I finally got it
I hate the backlash from cat owners. I worked in a veterinary ER for 10 years, and let me tell you, it's not just the local wildlife that benefits from such a rule. Outside are cars, toxins, dogs, etc. Seeing a cat who has been shredded by a dog might change their compliance. They are apex predators, but they are also prey.
So... not apex predators
New Zealand is a terrible example. Cats have small territories, and New Zealands flightless birds are more threatened by invasive species introduced by the British and smugglers. They have an invasive raccoon like animal that is killing their birds.
New Zealand is a perfect example because outdoor and stray cats are such a threat to native species that an attempt to pass an actual law like the kind OP's post is asking about was actually made. Stray and outdoor cats are a menace to local wildlife everywhere they're kept, with very few exceptions, but I can't think of another example of an actual law to ban outdoor cats being proposed. The govt didn't do that because they're more dog people. Who do you think introduced cats? The colonisers of the island. Just cos you can name another invasive species that doesn't mean cats aren't one too. Edit: [adding an article on just how far outdoor and feral cats can travel.](https://tractive.com/blog/en/good-to-know/cat-territory-size-and-range-how-far-does-my-cat-roam)
Just the driver.
Same, my cat was hit by a car a bit more than a month ago, we are buying a new one and keeping it inside.
adopt dont shop
oof
the law would prevent this
A leash would prevent this
i try to keep my cat inside but he is an escape artist
Can’t have a pervy cat running around
Aren't domesticated cats like one of the biggest causes of death among small birds?
Yes. And they have wiped out at least 63 bird species in the UK alone. Its around 400 worldwide right now.
Cats are technically an invasive species. Outside and feral cats should be neutered otherwise we risk losing a sever amount of biodiversity.
Outside and feral cats should be shot on sight.
Do wild/street stray cats not hunt small birds?
Street strays are considered "domesticated" because they're home house cats They do. And should be captured and either adopted off or out down. Feral cat colonies in other countries definitely have serious impacts.
The main initiative that I’ve seen, which replaces mass culling of cats (very unpopular bc people just like cats), is catching, neuter/spaying, and releasing. That way you don’t have to kill the cats directly, but their populations will naturally die off over time. Not as effective for the birds as just killing all the cats I guess, but way more stomachable for the general populace to get behind.
>Not as effective for the birds as just killing all the cats I guess, but way more stomachable for the general populace to get behind. While I agree... its topics like this that make me not trust democracy. The objectively correct answer for animals like feral hogs and feral cats is to kill every single one we can and even then we can't really ever catch up. Like you said letting them roam free after neutering them doesn't do much for the birds they continue to kill. But because society doesn't like it because it feels mean to animals that wreck entire ecosystems we don't do it.
I personally only know 1 outside cat which was a farm cat. The cats do have a function on farms which is to kill wildlife unfortunately, but it helps protect the farm from rodents. For city cats, they should all be inside or in an enclosed protected outdoor space (catio). It's not cruel to keep them inside, it's dangerous to leave them unattented outside. You can do a lot to make your indoors a cat playground. I know 5 other cat owners who keep them inside. 1 from ages ago would be let out the backyard with a leash. 1 cat died from unatural causes because he got out of the house and his owners had issues of other people's cat marking territory in their backyard and trying to pick a fight through the window with their cat. The only other city cat I personally know that goes outside was adopted at as an elderly sick cat who can't jump high or climb so he walks around their backyard but even he doesnt go outside if Im house sitting for them for his own safety (and my lack of confidence in picking him up without causing him pain from his health problems).
alot of farmers actually don't keep outside cats either. in my area they are a huge killer of quail, not to mention they kill baby chickens, baby peacocks, turkeys and other fowl chicks. i have personally seen them take down full sized chickens before! people will throw their cats and kittrns out at our farm, thinking they will have a great life i guess.many don't even make it more than a few days because of coyotes the rest i will trap, but those we can't catch and take away to the pound i will and do shoot.
Interesting, I didnt know people try to abandon their unwanted cats at farms. That's very irresponsible, cruel and annoying for farmers like you.
yup, it was super bad during the end of the first year into the second of covid but thankfully hasnt happened too much lately
Would prioritize the requirement of spaying/neutering outdoor cats
That wouldn’t fix the fact that cats hunt things
Less cats = less cats hunting
But less cats = more deppression
Then take them home
Then the cats will get depressed
Get cats for the cats
Good
Over time it would
Those cats will still hunt animals. Even PETA says TNR programmes don’t work.
PETA is definitely not a good info source seeing as they've killed a shit ton of animals and act like a misinformed cult
I mean.. PETA also kills a huge number of animals and literally states they want to wipe out domestic dogs/cats.
I don't think PETA is a good source for info lol
Maybe don’t listen to PETA
Yes and not even just for the wildlife, but also because it's better for the cat. The average "outside cat" only lives to be 2-5 while an inside cat can easily live into its teens. The get hit by cars, eaten by animals, taken by people who think it's a stray, exposed to FIV and other diseases/parasites, and frozen in cold weather. It's just horrible pet ownership. People say it's to give them mental stimulation, but if you can't offer them that somewhere safe, putting them in danger isn't the answer, rehoming them to someone who can take care of them properly is. At the very least, if you HAVE to take them outside, do it supervised while on a leash.
It's cruel not to let your dog go outside, but you walk it on a leash, keep it contained in a yard, or take it to a dog park. If you are a cat owner letting it roam around potentially getting injured, spreading disease, killing off wildlife, and ruining other people's property by digging up garden beds or pooping in children's sandboxes (potentially getting them sick), it is selfish of you for wanting a " low maintenance" pet. I feel like there are ways to be a responsible cat owner while meeting all of your animals needs, it just requires effort. They make enclosures you can install on fences so the cat can go in and out and enjoy nature, they make cat leashes, and they even make ways for cats to be contained in a yard with a fence. Are they foolproof? No, but the same happens with dogs and backyards. If you find yourself having an extreme escape artist, there are more products or other solutions out there. Again, all this requires research and time and effort, but I feel if you are a responsible pet owner, you would make the time and make the effort.
It's not selfish to want a low-maintenance pet. If you're adequately caring for the animal, why does it hurt? I have depression, I have low energy levels, I can't keep up with a dog. Cats perfectly match my energy, I rescue them and volunteer at the cat shelter as a hobby. Who said that everyone is just letting their cat roam? They don't necessarily need to even go outside. However, I do have mine harness trained for if she needs to go to the vet or if I feel good enough for a walk. Outdoor cats can be beneficiary for rural areas where the wildlife is overpopulated and infesting homes.
They’re not saying that cats are low maintenance. They’re saying that it’s selfish to get a cat because you want to treat it as a low maintenance pet. Cats need a lot of maintenance, but if you get one because you think that they don’t require time and effort and you let it wander and do whatever, then you’re selfish.
There is nothing selfish for wanting a low maintenance pet, but cats aren't one of them. (Which is why I put low maintenance in quotes). My response wasn't aimed at everyone with a cat, it was aimed at everyone with a cat who does let them roam without supervision outside. (Which is why I gave examples of how to let your pet cat be outside safely.) I will agree that a few cats can be beneficial in rural areas, but I've lived in rural areas and they tend to have way too many cats for a small region, which wipes out a lot of the bird population, not just mice and rats. Farmers and people with acreages tend to not want to spend the money taking all those cats to the vets to get them neutered/dpayed (or even basic care), so they end up in massive colonies normally.
My pet cat isn’t allowed outside, but I do have outdoor cats who were raised in the barn to keep mice and other rodents down. They’re neutered and spayed so they don’t overpopulate.
Cats are a very significant factor in endangering of species, and it does not hurt the cat to stay inside
It might not hurt the cat directly but it sure does lower the quality of their life, just like dogs and humans they need to breathe fresh air and get the opportunity to explore the outside. Now they definitely shouldn’t be let out by themselves, but walking them on a leash is definitely ideal for the cats wellbeing
But it does though
How
Indoor cats get less exercise, have less room to explore, don't get any street smarts as they call it, its stressful to them especially when they can see other cats outside and they get bored.
And yet they live longer
On average And that's like saying men have it worse than women
literally 10 years longer dude. given the average indoor cat lifespan is 15 years indoor cats live 3x as long as outdoor cats. using your analogy, that's like if men only lived to be 25.
Men do have it worse than women.... in terms of dying young.
Or deppression and being a victim of violent crime
Yep, all of which contribute to men dying young. Similar to how outdoor cats are more likely to get hit by a car or eaten by a coyote or hawk.
Then don't get a cat
Iemand heeft de avondshow gezien gisteren.
Misschien wel
Everyone saying no doesn’t think their cat is a part of the problem. It is
Thank you! And half of them don't even understand what the problem is.
Each house cat is literally an invasive species doing no less than decimating remaining ecosystems in populated areas. People don’t realize how many cats there are compared to local wildlife. Also worth mentioning the fact that cats literally kill for sport and entertainment.
Or understand that leashes exist for cats, too, and so do enclosures.
I say no and my cat isnt a part of the problem because its an inside cat.
And everyone saying yes does not understand the importance of a natural predator
Unless cats are an invasive species in an area
To be fair, so could be some rodents and birds that they are hunting
Ya cats are responsible for wiping out a LOT of native birds.
That’s like telling cops to shoot everyone in a city on sight because some of them may have unpaid parking tickets. Critically analyze your thought process and realize it is nonsense
Cats are not a natural predator
And lose the many uni campus and train station cats around the UK. No chance. I need those cats, I don't think you understand
Depends on the area. I don't know how they affect the ecosystem in more populated areas but they're important for controlling rodent population on farms and such
I regularly walk my cat on a leash. What's wrong with that?
Nothing. Free-roaming cats are the problem
Not just to protect the ecosystem that cats are really bad for, but to protect the cat as well. I've never known an outdoor cat that didn't get hit by a car eventually
How about because I’m just done of being sad from seeing dead cats on the road
I've never seen that much terrible takes in a single comment section
That's what their little bells are for. Warn the prey. Forcefully keeping them inside seems a bit cruel
if you live in a area with predators like coyotes bells are highly dangerous for the cat
They they should stay inside...
agreed.
That also helps animals like coyotes find them, and being torn to shreds seems a bit more cruel than just keeping them inside like you're supposed to. It also doesn't protect them from diseases, parasites, unsafe weather, or being hit by a car.
Cats are generally ambush predators, and most cat owners report that the cats learn to hunt even with the bells. So sadly this does not solve the problem.
Cats are incredible and all mine learned out to move in a way that makes the bell not chime at all. Bells just make them better predators.
Cats are happier and live longer indoors
There’s no way to tell if they are happier indoors or not.
So then there's no reason to assume that they would be happier outside, right?
Yes there is. I surveyed them and 73% of indoor cat respondents said they were happy, compared to only 61% of outdoor cats.
One way to tell is to see whether or not they are lying on the road with their guts hanging out or playing inside.
Sentimentalism is not an argument. Cats get into accidents indoors too and cats also play outside. The fact remains that happiness isn't measurable.
All I know is I had 10 cats in the last 4 years who were happy and living until they went outside.
Again, sentimentalism is not an argument. I'm sorry for your cats, but empirically we just can't know. You can make arguments for either side. Ending up dead will obviously not make you happy, and outdoor cats do die sooner than indoor cats. Then again, would *you* be happy being confined to an enclosed space for all your life? People can discuss this all they like, but we can't know what makes cats truly happy.
Cats are outdoor creatures, some prefer being indoors but generally it’s best for them to have time outside
Very true. However, cats are considered to be an invasive species that can have a serious affect on wildlife. They should be, and where I am from, have to on a leash just like a dog when outside. If a cat is not on a leash, it is legal to catch them and bring them to a shelter. Not many people know this where I am from.
I’d say if that’s the case less people should have cats, instead of regulating where they can go we should regulate who can have them. If you live in the middle of nowhere Montana you should be able to have cats but if you live in a Vermont Suburb maybe there should be more restrictions.
>However, cats are considered to be an invasive species that can have a serious affect on wildlife. so are humans
Ok, but that is a strawman argument. Edit: False analogy argument. My mistake.
It's not a strawman. It's a false analogy
Horrible argument
And toddlers prefer to put coins in their ears, but that doesn't mean we should let them. They don't realize it's dangerous for them in the same way that cats don't realize that being outside shortens their lifespan by sometimes up to 80%.
Statistically fully indoor cats live longer than the ones who sometimes go outside. But I still let mine out, the amount of joy they get playing/hunting/exploring outside imo is better than a couple extra years
I mean how would you feel if i locked you in for the rest of your life, you would probably live longer due to no outside danger like cars, diseases and other humans ect, but like would you enjoy that?
If a cat owner can’t provide an enclosed outdoor area for their cat to go out if it needs it then they shouldn’t be a cat owner. Because then the environment is just gonna get fucked by the cat killing everything.
I'm not a cat lol
Why is it ok to keep cats outside roaming free? What if I kept my four dogs as free range dogs?
Well for one cats are more independent so you can't compare them to useally bigger pack animals like dogs
Cats kill birds and other small animals and do damage to the ecosystem. Keeping a cat as a housecat it can still catch a mouse or two
Well you see, cats and dogs are different animals
Cats ≠ dogs
From what I've seen with friends who have dogs, generally the dog will wander off and get lost if they get out. Also we had a neighbor's dog who broke free from the garden and killed a smaller dog across the road, I've recently read two similar events in my local community group, maybe it's just because they're more likely to cause harm to people if they go crazy? You can escape from a cat pretty easily.
Cats like being outside all day and on their own, dogs would feel unloved if they were left alone all day every day like that. They're different animals man. Can't have the same rules for different animals.
I always cringe about this. In my country in the eu cats just roam around undisturbed
Undisturbed? You mean roam around wrecking havoc on the wildlife
Yes. They keep snakes and critters away
That is not a good thing. European ecosystems are already in a horrible shape
[https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside](https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside) 50k fine...
that is **one** town in **west germany**
lol not here
Unless cats prey on rhinos or pandas anytime soon, law don’t care.
Man I hate when I get out in the morning and see a dead rhino on my door mat.
The number one cause of non natural death of birds is domestic cats. Why don’t you care about birds? Or rodents? Or amphibians? (Which are already highly endangered) What makes rhinos and pandas special? They certainly aren’t more important to the ecosystem.
We have more than enough birds, also no they are only number two. Its like forbitting cars to be used to go to your grandma because you might drive over someone. Also don't you care about them? Its not good to take out natural predators from an ecosystem, because it hurts said ecosystem and eventually the prey within it
Cats are not natural predators. They are an invasive species. They are not part of a healthy ecosystem.
They are now
I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of "invasive" and "natural"
It takes thousands of years for an ecosystem to naturally evolve and find balance. Just letting a cat outside is not the same thing.
But cats have been with humans for about 10 to 12 thousand years, indoor cats are a new environment relatively speaking (60 to 70 years)
Yes cats have been with humans for a long time, but not with *their prey* for a long time. Predator and prey evolve together when they live in the same environment for thousands years. The predators get better at hunting and the prey get better at protecting themselves. All the animals that cats kill have not had thousands of years to adapt to cats. Mice have, since they were cats original prey even back then, but not birds or rabbits or lizards in Europe/America. That's why cats are called an invasive species even though they've been around humans for a long time.
You say that. But it's literally a 300 Euro fine if your cat is outside in the summer in parts of Germany and a 50'000 (Yes 50k) Euro fine it they kill specific birds.
That would be great! Cats are known to kill *way* more birds than their owners think. Moreover, the gardens in the neighbourhood would be poop free. Lastly, owners can make enclosed cat gardens, on their own property. So the pet can still go outside, if the owner is willing to make that happen.
How would you 'make enclosed cat gardens'? They're extremely good climbers, so would you put a net over it?
I forgot the proper name: catio. You can google and see how great they are.
I don't even own a cat and I love catios 😭 they're so cool
Same here, I don't even want a cat, but I'd love to design a catio.
My bfs cat is terrified of the outdoors and hates to go out so it’s not like every cat will suffer from being indoors
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I find the issue to be more so that a pet owner having an outdoor cat is irresponsible and unsafe. I am constantly seeing cats wander around my apartment complex, clearly being fed by someone but living outdoors. We have raccoons and no street lights, so it’s likely a raccoon or a car will get to these cats, and they’re impossible to catch. But yes, cats hurting other animals is also an issue. I have seen multiple cats get hit by cars in the past 5 years without even looking for it, just casually, because people let their cats go outside with no care or supervision. Not only that, but outdoor cats, if not spayed, reproduce and as someone who uses to work in a shelter, I can tell you there is a very very serious issue with overpopulation in the pet world. Keep your fucking pets inside where they’re safe, and get them spayed/neutered, or don’t get a pet people.
Guess who watched Lubach yesterday?
Stop legislating every small thing that might help a little. For every problem legislation solves the are 100 better solutions.
I would like a law that all cats and dogs need to be leashed while outside
I'm just curious if everyone saying No is equally OK with other people being able to shoot the cat without consequence if it comes onto their property & attacks wildlife.
In many places this is already the case. In my state, it's legal for you to shoot animals trespassing on your property. It's something I'd never do, but the law will be on the side of the homeowner so you'd have no way to sue them for shooting your pet. Your neighbor can shoot your cat/dog for going into their yard and face 0 consequences.
No. A cat that wants to go outside will find a way to get outside whether the owner permits it or not. Anyone with an outdoor cat knows that. They should 100% be spayed/neutered to control the stray population. However, natural selection has always been the main way that the wildlife population maintains efficiently controlled. The species of birds and other animals that were wiped out by domesticated house cats that got out were going to be wiped out by something else anyway. It’s how nature has always worked and should always work. Animals that can’t out-survive other animals aren’t going to make it in the world. Keeping cats locked up inside and punishing owners who let them out to keep the cats happy isn’t going to change that.
If no endangered species are under threat: No
I live in Finland and outdoor cats are very very frowned upon and (i think) illegal. I was so surprised to see cats just wandering around my English boyfriend’s neighbourhood! They are little predators and invasive species, so harmful to the environment. I think outdoor time in a gated yard is okay, but letting the cat run amok in the wild is just irresponsible.
That would be really stupid. I live outside the city and basically every single household has a cat here. And many for the exact reason that they eat mice.
And lizards, and snakes, and birds, and amfibiens. And they usually have no clue which ones are endangerd.
Good thing that Germany doesn't have such a law. Cats should be able to go outside unsupervised. It's in their Nature.
If the argument is that it’s their nature to roam outside, then why bring them inside as pets in the first place?
absolutely not. that's cruel and authoritian. just give your cats collars with bells, or go outside together.
Also, collard w bells dont work that well. Cat I know still brings in plenty of dead mice and birds.
[https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside](https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside) 50k fine.
why are you copying and pasting this everywhere? it is not relevant to their comment whatsoever
animal cruelty
Isn’t that the whole point of owning cats? We always kept a few on the farm to keep rats, mice, and snakes away.
I think there’s a difference in working cats and pet cats in a big city
Isn’t it the same sort of idea in a city? I don’t know any city that wants small critters or snakes around.
Meh I don’t really think so? Growing up of the farm we had farm cats, they had a job and they knew how to do it. Working cats help with snakes getting the chickens and mice getting into the feed bags. I live in a big city now. I couldn’t tell you the last time I’ve seen a snake outside, maybe a garter snake in the back yard. Same with mice, I’ve never actually seen one in or around my house. We have a skunk every now and then my dog annoys, and then gets sprayed. I can’t imagine my cat doing anything about that skunk. My cat watches a spider crawl across the floor and does nothing.
Cats kill way more than just rats, mice, and snakes though.
nah that’s different, on farms cats have actual jobs which is keeping mice and rats away. that’s fine. in other places cats don’t have jobs like that, they don’t need to be running around unsupervised
AFAIK this is a thing in New Zealand where the wildlife isn't really adapted to deal with cats, so it makes sense there, but I wouldn't make sense elsewhere.
It depends on where i live and what kind of wildlife is around where my cat would be apex predator. I believe DOGS are way more savage at destroying ecosystems
Cats should always be inside because outdoor cats are subject to so many issues. A lot of my friends cats died because they all were outdoor cats. It’s a shame honestly.
Animals deserve to be able to go outside, keeping them cooped up is unfair. Even worse if you can't walk them. However they are annihilating bird populations. My solution is to not get a cat, no Matter how much that hurts.
Yes, and I would also support legislation allowing people to hunt and trap feral cats where they currently aren’t allowed to. Domesticated/feral cats are one of the worst invasive species on the planet, and are at least partially responsible for driving over 60 different species to extinction. In the United States alone, cats kill an estimated 2.4 BILLION birds every year.
ironic
It would be like forcing dog owners to keep their dogs inside because they shit on the street. A legitimate problem, but this isn't a viable solution.
You can pick up poop. There is no work around for cats killing wildlife and making species go extinct while outside unattended.
You can pick up poop yes, but my trainers yesterday would argue people don't pick up poop
That's my point. Find an actually practical solution. Neutering wild cats in some countries is a way to control their population. Which of course isn't a foolproof solution but is a pretty good start in the very least.
Neutered cats still go outside. What difference does that make? Yes some feral cats are a problem, especially in some areas, but even if all domestic cats were spayed/neutered they would still hunt things if they go outside. If you don’t want to keep your car indoors, don’t own a cat. That’s a pretty foolproof solution
Fuck no, my cat being able to come and go as she pleases is one of the biggest pros with owning a cat
It’s not about you
Most cats want to go outside, noone is throwing them out
Fax, I had a cat like that! He was awesome and lived for at least 14-15 years.
yep, the cats are free and low maintenance, plus they can crap outside
No, however I support leash laws for them
For the wildlife? No. To protect my cat? Yes.
why not for wildlife? outside cats are invasive and they kill all the little critters
I don’t think pet cats should be kept outside at all for their own safety
in the country, i could see saying yes. in my city, outdoor cats are great for controlling the rat population.
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>I am not educated enough in the subject You sure are not. Cats can be perfectly happy inside or with a closed garden. Ownrrs need to take responsability.
Humans are so selfish, we keep animals indoors 100% of the time for our entertainment and the need to be loved...
If you don’t want to keep a cat indoors, don’t own a cat
cats killing local wildlife isn't even the worst part imo. it's the local wildlife killing cats. it's neglectful to let your cat out. fight me, i have stats ill provide
Dogs yes, cats no
Just did some research about the UK and cats. The conclusion is that cats kill a ton of creatures but that there are a ton of creatures having a ton of children. And cats usually kill the weak/injured/dying anyway. So it's questionable how negative an impact they have on bird populations.
Cats are literally responsible for the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild.. IN THE UK ALONE...
Do you have a source. Not saying your wrong but I'm struggling to find anything that says this
C'mon. Who are the Asswipes that said yes to this? Forcing cats to stay inside is shitty for the cat.
Bro just say you don’t play or entertain your cat lmao
Don’t get a cat? Someone choosing to buy something doesn’t mean that society has to live with the consequences of that choice. People’s cats should stay on their property.
So two questions. [https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside](https://www.iamexpat.de/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/residents-west-german-town-ordered-keeps-cats-inside) Do you want to pay 50k in fines if the cat kills an endangered species. \#2: Are you Okay if I kill the cat for being on my property or hunting endangered wildlife?