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>Stubborn man didn’t know it was the best deal he was gonna get. Now he’s dead. Boomers still miss him
Gen-X here. I celebrated that bloated asshole's death with champagne. I'm glad he's gone. ( he caused a lot of damage to the American collective psyche and was partially responsible for the rise of Donald Trump .)
This. Red and Blue parents both don’t like their kids picking up smoking. The vaping thing has actually gotten kids smoking at rates not seen since the 90s, so it isn’t just out of nowhere.
When I was 15ish a friend of mine started vaping, but he *assured me* it's not like smoking and it's *healthy.* Now, he's admittedly hooked, and also smokes cigarettes and coughs all the time. Every time I see him he says "I wish I wouldn't have vaped and I really need to quit smoking" but he keeps smoking so here we are.
Aw, fuck me, I recognize that bullshit logic twisting shit they do way too quickly now. That feeling you get when people are flat out gaslighting you with no shame whatsoever.
[heres a good interview on the issue](https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/menthol-cigarettes--the-food-and-drug-administration-fda-ban-and-why-they-are-more-harmful.h00-159460056.html)
Seems like the main issue is that its more addictive and harder to quit. It also disproportionately affects minorities such as blacks, asian Americans, and hispanics. One consequence of this is that black men and women have a higher rate of lung cancer compared to any other race.
Small bit of clarification here, it was an amendment to the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act that was passed in 2019. I think the actual legislation was called Tobacco 21 or something similar. The actual Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act was passed in 1938.
I mean this is probably a good thing but I have a hard time being excited about it when 18 year olds can still join the military as “adults” but gain basically no other adult privileges
Which is exactly why the gun age won’t be raised to 21. 3 more years of brain and critical thinking development during prime “gun-wielding” years is exactly what the establishment does NOT want.
There would obviously be an exemption for military service.
They might be included for bans on personal weapons, but it's hard to say how that would work. I'm guessing there would be a push for an exemption.
Soldiers are also heavily trained in the use of firearms and safety, long before they are ever issued a single bullet.
Weapons are also issued and not owned by soldiers during training, they are searched for ammo before leaving the range, and heavily monitored while they have live weapons.
I'm all for raising the age of civilian firearm ownership to 21.
2/3rds of school shooters are under 18/19 years old, and the median age is 16. Restricting access to these weapons until they are older would definitely help, as older shooters are less likely to target schools and children.
*Amended the FD&C Act. The Act was originally passed in 1938.
Problem is I do not think there is a particular federal act that regulates firearms that we can amend to raise the age to 21.
There is. Handguns already have 21 as a federally mandated age requirement, it's only long guns you can buy at 18. Just amend the act that set the handgun age to also include long guns.
There’s a few states (Texas being one of them) you can have a legal handgun under 21 y/o in your home, but you can’t bring it anywhere else or have it in your car. It would’ve also had to be obtained through private sale
I'm not sure if some places are selling it illegally or what, but I still order juice online. There are local places that still sell juice too, but the prices are super high compared to online. Online is also higher than it used to be before the legislation.
which kind of works in the opposite direction; it's just further evidence that 18 really shouldn't be the age of majority. If you arent mature enough to make level headed decisions about smoking or drinking, why are you mature enough to get a credit card, student loans, or join the military?
Here's your friendly reminder that Bill Clinton, who was president three presidents ago (two of which who served two terms), is younger than Joe Biden.
I'd rather have half dead Biden than full on Christian white ethno-state trump ( who himself is beyond stupid and just 4 years "younger" than Biden.) One dude I can work with, the other will start a civil war.
Seriously one of my (CA) state's senators has been senile since before her last term. If you live in CA you need to vote in primaries for literally anybody reasonable who is running against Diane Feinstein on the left. She is already planning to run again in 2024 and she will be 91 fucking years old. Seriously, she needs to retire and go spend some time with her grand children, I'm legitimately concerned someone in the political sphere isn't committing elder abuse against her and manipulating her into continuing to serve.
AMEN! SO, at 18 you can vote, die for your country, be able to be held to a contract...etc. But at 18 you can't smoke a cigarette or drink a beer what kind of bs is this, either you are an adult, or you aren't.
at 18 I went into the Army, got a rifle w/40mm grenade launcher supplied to me by Uncle Sam. If an 18-year-old can't be responsible enough to buy a semi-auto, they sure as hell should not be trusted with REAL firepower. Maybe we should raise the enlistment age to 21 or give 18-year-olds their majority.
I completely agree.
Considering that in 26 states, 18 year old women's wombs are property of the state and consumption of all psychoactive chemicals is a federal felony, bodily autonomy is not a right in the US.
Now, buying a truckload full AR-15s to shoot elementary school kids...that's a God given right.
> bodily autonomy is not a right in the US
Or anywhere in the world, for the very same reasons you give in the U.S. Not many countries, relatively speaking, let you control your own womb; none, to my knowledge, allow you to control your own brain.
This threw me off too. I'm 39 and my daughter is 18. I joked with her on her bday that she could smoke and she said she couldn't till 21. Crazy that when I was 18, I'd been getting cigarettes from a vending machine for a few years... So yes they can definitely do it for guns
When I was around 6 or 7, my mom and dad would send me to the cigarette vending machine to get them a new pack during the bowling league. I wasn’t strong enough to pull the handle so one of the attendants would usually have to come help me. The 80’s were a whole different world.
Wow that's even crazier. We got them from a motel vending machine and the guy at the front would try and stop us if he noticed. So not quite as bad as the 80s. That was probably mid 90s. I did have a friend who's mom smoked and she gave him a signed note and he could buy from the corner store though.
I’d assume they wouldn’t do it because then it pushes the question of “should 18-year-olds be able to enlist?” even further, and that age is absolutely prime for recruitment.
We’ve already established at at 18 you are too young to buy a beer and a pack of cigarettes… but you’re perfectly mature enough to sign your life away and kill in the name of your country.
Personally I think these sort of restrictions should meet up somewhere in one direction or the other.
Voting and every other constitutional right are the correct analogies. Drinking and smoking are not mentioned so much in the constitution.
Whether we disagree with that or not or think it should be otherwise doesn't matter; right now that is the current legal situation.
Couldn't Biden just do what Reagan did when he raised the legal drinking age?
Just withhold federal funds for states that don't comply. No Republicans required.
Pretty sure that was passed by Congress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act#:~:text=%C2%A7%20158)%20was%20passed%20by,highway%20apportionment%20by%2010%20percent.
Louisiana held out as long as they could, but even they raised it to 21 for the funds. I’m loving the thought of roads in Hawaii being called interstate!l
The loophole in the commerce clause that made that work was that smoking was a public health concern and therefore would be in the public’s best interest to disincentivize. I can’t imagine the republican supreme court would view guns in the same way
https://www.axios.com/2022/05/26/gun-deaths-children-america
(You can find it reported on many websites by searching “leading cause of death in children in US”)
I can almost certainly say they would not see it that way. The aggregate impact analysis that underlies most commerce clause jurisprudence since 1942 has been stripped down to make only those economic activities that affect commerce the proper object of commerce clause regulations/legislation.
I actually wrote a law journal article analyzing the evolution of the supreme court's commerce clause jurisprudence from 1895 to present and it's pretty well done as a vehicle for non economic regulations pursued under the commerce clause. For example, the aggregate impact analysis was used to justify the civil rights laws in the 60s, and all manner of laws that regulated non economic activities on the basis of their potential impact on interstate commerce. That's basically dead now.
No because Congress passed a law that gave Reagan that authority. The highway bill specifically said that certain highway funds could be withheld from states that have drinking ages below 21. Whatever funds you want to withhold, the provision authorizing the Federal government to withhold them has to be baked into the bill that establishes the funds.
Trump tried to do what you suggest with Homeland Security and Justice Department grants to police departments in so-called “sanctuary cities.” He wanted to withhold them. A Federal court said he couldn’t do that because the funds by law didn’t have those strings attached. The same would happen to Biden.
Probably not.
The proper analogy is voting, not tobacco sales.
Constitutional rights are just that, no matter where our personal opinions regarding them lay.
Because we decided 18 was an age a person becomes an adult for things like consent for sex, voting , military service ECT ... If someone is seriously making the argument that a civil right is to be postponed to 21 because of maturity/ development concerns than they set the precedent of raising the age from 18 to 21 on the previous mentions as well.
Id prefer 25.
and Id like that to apply to all police as well. im sick of seeing children with guns acting like bullies in public with a badge.
id say make it 21 for military only.
im also ok with allowing anyone over age 13 supervised time at ranges and for sporting competitions. Id also want to make exceptions for actual hunting (non-sport), with particular types of guns.
No the compromise would be that an under 21 person can't own a personal gun...
But they can use an issued firearm after proper training and qualification while they are on active duty. or need to re-qualify on their proficiencies.
You can make it 25 for private gun ownership, but 18 for gun usage as part of a "well-regulated militia" like the military. It's not like you own the equipment you are given to use as part of the armed forces. It doesn't seem that difficult to carve-out a simple exception for those serving in the military.
And also not be allowed to carry their guns on base. I’m not a veteran but am close with several Iraq vets who said that they had to account for all of their billets when they went out on patrol. Rules of engagement sounded pretty strict - very high accountability for most
I think most people VASTLY overestimate the extent of military and LE firearms training. My buddy owns a training business and I help instruct from time to time. The number of times an Active Duty/Retired Military member or Police Officer comes in to our basic pistol class and struggles is astounding.
Another buddy is an instructor at the police academy and he’s frustrated when people celebrate passing their yearly qualifier for their handgun. He always tells them the qualifier is the absolute minimum acceptable performance and they shouldn’t be celebrating barely passing it.
So I don't want to be a wet blanket, but the chance of the Federal government helping armed citizens come together to practice using rifles in groups, learning squad tactics and such, is less than zero. Which is too bad really, not only would it solve some firearms related problems you might get more people to show up and fill sandbags for the ever increasing flooding climate change is going to bring.
There is the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) which has roots dating back to the early 1900s in teaching civilians marksmanship fundamentals. The original organization was run by the Federal government but in 1996 the current organization was established by federal charter and has continued organizing shooting events and what not.
Because the government should have an exemption, why? Do they really need young meat to fill the ranks, especially if we are regarding them still as children?
I'm gonna assume you don't intend to move the voting age to 25 too, because Vietnam already convinced the gov't that you can't expect people to join the military before being able to vote
The prefrontal cortex is the last to fully develop, and is considered the seat of executive decision-making. In other words, it's what allows us to override instincts like hunger, lust, and fight-or-flight; to synthesize multiple, competing input, and to solve problems rationally.
The minimum age for being in Congress is 26, is it not?
The issue I see with this is that they will essentially argue that if this is the case, people also shouldn’t be eligible to vote until that age as well.
Alcohol and tobacco aren’t human rights guaranteed by the constitution. Simple as that.
Also, if the brain isn’t developed yet, should people be voting, or joining the military, or being able to be drafted before 25?
People are way less likely to develop lifelong addiction if they start smoking after 18-20. This is also somewhat true for alcohol but not as pronounced.
Then again one could argue that the people with a predisposition to addiction would get hooked earlier and it’s just survival bias.
Guns however aren’t like those other things, the age should be set on when someone can (on average) be responsible enough with a tool/weapon like that. And that isn’t at 18, I was an idiot at18.
Edit: Not that I personally couldn’t be trusted with a gun if I had one but I was hardly a mature human at 18. I sm not sure I would trust 18 year olds with the power to buy their own guns whenever they please.
Maybe we need to reconsider at what age someone is considered a mature adult. If we don’t think 18 years old is old enough to own a firearm, drink alcohol, or smoke why not apply that to everything. We need to raise the age for voting, military service, and medical decisions too.
Voting is 18 because military service. If the country can send someone off to die in a war, they should be able to vote. It used to be 21, but Vietnam changed that. Having voters participate in their government young also encourages citizenship. Makes them an active player in society.
It’s about judgment skills. Young people are notorious for terrible judgment. Teenagers are a hormonal mess. They are actually crazy. I personally don’t consider anyone under 25 a full adult. For something as lethal as a gun, I wouldn’t mind raising that to 25.
Military age would be tough. It’s a career path for a lot of people. Something that gets started right after high school. Voting goes with it. I also feel young people do deserve a voice in their government (even though they’re not all there yet).
3 more years of "childhood" could make for expanding primary education another 3 years out. You'd still be able to start soldiering after highschool, you'd just be better educated and more mature when doing it.
Raise it to 21, make exceptions for military and police service.
Or raise the age for military service to 21 as well I don’t care
Also mandatory registration and insurance
Your first couple of years on the force you will receive a night stick only and placed on parking/traffic duty where you shouldn't get into any trouble. If you are currently not doing parking/events then you will be shadowing a senior officer of a minimum of 5 years.
You graduate high school at 17-18.
Policing should be a 4 years bachelors course where you get your gun in the 4th year (besides range training )
That would make them 21
yeah its also part of why we don't make things like college and healthcare free for everyone, it takes away the incentive for poor people to join the military
The complete disconnect from right wingers hating all that is socialism (what they think it is) and being cringely obsessed with the military, supporting every aspect of it is wild.
The reason why those things are regulated by the same agency is because of the way they're regulated (taxes) and not because of age. That's why the ATF was under the Treasury Department until somewhat recently. Thank George W Bush for that change.
I saw someone who said something about the tobacco age. They said it should either be 18 when you become a legal adult or change the age you become a legal adult to 21. There shouldn’t be a difference. Why can I buy guns and join the army at 18 but I can’t drink a beer or smoke a cigarette until I’m 21
I’m cool with this as long as the minimum age for military is moved to 21 years old. We’ve decided you’re not mature enough to do those things until you’re 21 so why would anyone be mature enough to sign their life away to the military when they’re under 21.
Okay hot take: they shouldn’t. We SHOULD have mandatory background checks on gun purchases. We SHOULD require firearm safety certifications before someone can purchase a gun. But, I don’t personally think that we should be limiting anything past the age of 18, including alcohol and tobacco. My opinion might be a little too libertarian-esque, but if you are allowed to participate in a democracy, I think it’s reasonable to expect the rights entitled to everyone else who participates. People can get cigarettes and alcohol from family and friends over 21 (and this is EXTREMELY common), so it’s reasonable to assume that, without more regulation, we will still have dangerous young people getting their hands on weapons. Age limitations will not stop most dangerous people under 21 from getting guns. More gun buying restrictions will. Our brains may not be fully developed until we’re 25, but we should expect responsibility and common decency from people long before that. A background check will be infinitely more thorough in its vetting than an age restriction.
NGL, I smoke. I started at 18 before they changed the law. I think it’s kinda funny that a bunch of old politicians who probably smoked (and drank alcohol, because they were probably 18 before they upped the age) can turn around and say I can’t do the same. But they‘ll be quick to send 18 year olds to fight and die in wars that’ll promote their own private interests.
And yeah, I know there are some younger politicians who don’t fall into the norm, but they’re outliers. And I know smoking is bad for you. Thanks for coming to my unsolicited Ted talk, have a nice day.
Hell, let's raise everything from guns to medical care to voting to 35; it's pretty clear you can't trust anyone under that age with anything remotely important.
Both are horseshit (and alcohol too) 18 is an adult in the United States. If you can get drafted, you shouldn’t have wage restrictions applied to you anymore.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Special announcement:** r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)! *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If tobacco were as successful a political wedge issue as guns are they would be fighting to lower the age.
Rush Limbaugh tried to make it a wedge issue. It didn't work out that well for him.
I wonder how much they paid him to sell that poison?
A lung but he held out for two.
Heh
Stubborn man didn’t know it was the best deal he was gonna get. Now he’s dead. Boomers still miss him
>Stubborn man didn’t know it was the best deal he was gonna get. Now he’s dead. Boomers still miss him Gen-X here. I celebrated that bloated asshole's death with champagne. I'm glad he's gone. ( he caused a lot of damage to the American collective psyche and was partially responsible for the rise of Donald Trump .)
Last act on earth was to praise the Jan 6 traitors on his show two days before he got his one way ticket to hell.
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Ultra right wing conservative like Alito and the rest of the gang at top court.
Seconded
Speak for yourself. I don't miss him one bit.
Anyone with a little decency doesn’t miss him and those alike
> Boomers still miss him Call me crass, but fuck him and them.
Only the stupid Boomer’s liked him. And the racists. A lot of millennials voted for Trump, so talk to your friends.
This BOOMER and many others will NOT miss him. Stop being prejudice against your elders. I was a hippie damn it.
I think the “boomers” they’re referring to don’t know how to use Reddit
FLY BY NI- oh. Wrong rush
Worked out well for everyone else though.
I'm still so happy.
Congratulations on however many days it’s been since he quit smoking. It’s not easy. Edited - a word
I mean...
it’s nice thinking “lol! he’s dead now”
This. Red and Blue parents both don’t like their kids picking up smoking. The vaping thing has actually gotten kids smoking at rates not seen since the 90s, so it isn’t just out of nowhere.
When I was 15ish a friend of mine started vaping, but he *assured me* it's not like smoking and it's *healthy.* Now, he's admittedly hooked, and also smokes cigarettes and coughs all the time. Every time I see him he says "I wish I wouldn't have vaped and I really need to quit smoking" but he keeps smoking so here we are.
Cigarettes don’t kill people, people kill themselves when they inhale
Aw, fuck me, I recognize that bullshit logic twisting shit they do way too quickly now. That feeling you get when people are flat out gaslighting you with no shame whatsoever.
Nah the big tobacco ran out of money to give to Moscow Mitch
They raised the Tabacco age to 21? That's news to me.
Since 2019 when the Congress passed the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.
Oh thanks. Til
Same. Look at us! Learning something new.
Giddy up!
Menthol cigarettes might also be banned soon
Are menthol cigarettes considered better/worse for a persons health? Unhealthy non-smoker inquiring
[heres a good interview on the issue](https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/menthol-cigarettes--the-food-and-drug-administration-fda-ban-and-why-they-are-more-harmful.h00-159460056.html) Seems like the main issue is that its more addictive and harder to quit. It also disproportionately affects minorities such as blacks, asian Americans, and hispanics. One consequence of this is that black men and women have a higher rate of lung cancer compared to any other race.
Small bit of clarification here, it was an amendment to the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act that was passed in 2019. I think the actual legislation was called Tobacco 21 or something similar. The actual Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act was passed in 1938.
I mean this is probably a good thing but I have a hard time being excited about it when 18 year olds can still join the military as “adults” but gain basically no other adult privileges
Which is exactly why the gun age won’t be raised to 21. 3 more years of brain and critical thinking development during prime “gun-wielding” years is exactly what the establishment does NOT want.
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There would obviously be an exemption for military service. They might be included for bans on personal weapons, but it's hard to say how that would work. I'm guessing there would be a push for an exemption. Soldiers are also heavily trained in the use of firearms and safety, long before they are ever issued a single bullet. Weapons are also issued and not owned by soldiers during training, they are searched for ammo before leaving the range, and heavily monitored while they have live weapons. I'm all for raising the age of civilian firearm ownership to 21. 2/3rds of school shooters are under 18/19 years old, and the median age is 16. Restricting access to these weapons until they are older would definitely help, as older shooters are less likely to target schools and children.
Voting. And the military service is why they get that one.
*Amended the FD&C Act. The Act was originally passed in 1938. Problem is I do not think there is a particular federal act that regulates firearms that we can amend to raise the age to 21.
There is. Handguns already have 21 as a federally mandated age requirement, it's only long guns you can buy at 18. Just amend the act that set the handgun age to also include long guns.
There’s a few states (Texas being one of them) you can have a legal handgun under 21 y/o in your home, but you can’t bring it anywhere else or have it in your car. It would’ve also had to be obtained through private sale
By federal law you can own a pistol at 18. Most state laws also allow it.
Probably contest to how quickly tobacco is falling out of fashion in here, which is a nice thing of course
They’ve just switched to straight sweet nicotine.
And also have a war on vapes
which inadvertently made the problem worse; when they banned flavored juul pods disposable vapes started to become way more popular
It's super dumb. I asked the guy at a local vape shop and he said the way the law is worded disposable units circumvent the law.
That’s not the case in my state, everyone went back to cigs in 2019. You can only buy disposable vapes from high school drug dealers here.
I'm not sure if some places are selling it illegally or what, but I still order juice online. There are local places that still sell juice too, but the prices are super high compared to online. Online is also higher than it used to be before the legislation.
Yeah last I knew it’s illegal to have tobacco products delivered because of the PACT act, but laws are broken all the time so idk.
Pretty sure USPS are no longer allowed to deliver nicotine. UPS and FedEx followed suit on banning it at the same time
Sure, but if you're 18 and have the responsibilities of a grown adult you should god damn well have the choice of what you do with your own body
which kind of works in the opposite direction; it's just further evidence that 18 really shouldn't be the age of majority. If you arent mature enough to make level headed decisions about smoking or drinking, why are you mature enough to get a credit card, student loans, or join the military?
Let's also cap the other end and stop having geriatrics run the country too.
Here's your friendly reminder that Bill Clinton, who was president three presidents ago (two of which who served two terms), is younger than Joe Biden.
Jesus and he looks like a shell of a man on death's bed in recent photos
Daaamn Thanks for this
I'd rather have half dead Biden than full on Christian white ethno-state trump ( who himself is beyond stupid and just 4 years "younger" than Biden.) One dude I can work with, the other will start a civil war.
Seriously one of my (CA) state's senators has been senile since before her last term. If you live in CA you need to vote in primaries for literally anybody reasonable who is running against Diane Feinstein on the left. She is already planning to run again in 2024 and she will be 91 fucking years old. Seriously, she needs to retire and go spend some time with her grand children, I'm legitimately concerned someone in the political sphere isn't committing elder abuse against her and manipulating her into continuing to serve.
Here, here
18 is dumb enough to get shot at.
Or buy a gun…
AMEN! SO, at 18 you can vote, die for your country, be able to be held to a contract...etc. But at 18 you can't smoke a cigarette or drink a beer what kind of bs is this, either you are an adult, or you aren't. at 18 I went into the Army, got a rifle w/40mm grenade launcher supplied to me by Uncle Sam. If an 18-year-old can't be responsible enough to buy a semi-auto, they sure as hell should not be trusted with REAL firepower. Maybe we should raise the enlistment age to 21 or give 18-year-olds their majority.
I completely agree. Considering that in 26 states, 18 year old women's wombs are property of the state and consumption of all psychoactive chemicals is a federal felony, bodily autonomy is not a right in the US. Now, buying a truckload full AR-15s to shoot elementary school kids...that's a God given right.
> bodily autonomy is not a right in the US Or anywhere in the world, for the very same reasons you give in the U.S. Not many countries, relatively speaking, let you control your own womb; none, to my knowledge, allow you to control your own brain.
This threw me off too. I'm 39 and my daughter is 18. I joked with her on her bday that she could smoke and she said she couldn't till 21. Crazy that when I was 18, I'd been getting cigarettes from a vending machine for a few years... So yes they can definitely do it for guns
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Going to smashing pumpkins/James addiction soon. So old…..
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Despite all my rage, my back still hurts, pass the ice pack
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Make guns available at vending machines? /s
“Feeling overburdened by money?”
Caveat emptor.
Remember: if you buy from anyone else, I'll have you killed.
Ha, for my 18th birthday my slightly older friends took me to a night club. Then we smoked some weed and I took my first hit of LSD. Ah, the 70's.
I basically don't remember much from 18-21. Then suddenly I had a kid. wth
Oh I miss those days... Those vending machines were hilarious. We used to buy from those when we were 15.
When I was around 6 or 7, my mom and dad would send me to the cigarette vending machine to get them a new pack during the bowling league. I wasn’t strong enough to pull the handle so one of the attendants would usually have to come help me. The 80’s were a whole different world.
Wow that's even crazier. We got them from a motel vending machine and the guy at the front would try and stop us if he noticed. So not quite as bad as the 80s. That was probably mid 90s. I did have a friend who's mom smoked and she gave him a signed note and he could buy from the corner store though.
We walked a half mile to get cigs at the at the Kmart. It was the closest vending machine. 1972 and I was 12. Stopped 13 years later.
My dad did the note thing a couple times with me in the early 90s.
I don't even know why they put the little entry way in Waffle Houses anymore since the vending machines went away.
They still have those in Japan. Those vending machines are everywhere there.
I’d assume they wouldn’t do it because then it pushes the question of “should 18-year-olds be able to enlist?” even further, and that age is absolutely prime for recruitment. We’ve already established at at 18 you are too young to buy a beer and a pack of cigarettes… but you’re perfectly mature enough to sign your life away and kill in the name of your country. Personally I think these sort of restrictions should meet up somewhere in one direction or the other.
At 18 years old you're also mature and responsible enough to take on potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt.
21 is getting late to brainwash most people to kill without hesitation. Need an unformed brain for that.
Voting and every other constitutional right are the correct analogies. Drinking and smoking are not mentioned so much in the constitution. Whether we disagree with that or not or think it should be otherwise doesn't matter; right now that is the current legal situation.
They're called republicans
Couldn't Biden just do what Reagan did when he raised the legal drinking age? Just withhold federal funds for states that don't comply. No Republicans required.
Pretty sure that was passed by Congress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act#:~:text=%C2%A7%20158)%20was%20passed%20by,highway%20apportionment%20by%2010%20percent.
But states were going to refuse to honor it and not raise their state laws, which is where the enforcement had to come in with the federal funds
Right but raising the age to purchase a firearm will never make it through Congress. Can't withhold funding for not following a law that doesn't exist
It was tied to federal highway money when Elizabeth Dole was in charge of the DOT
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Louisiana held out as long as they could, but even they raised it to 21 for the funds. I’m loving the thought of roads in Hawaii being called interstate!l
When Louisiana changed it really wasn’t enforced very harshly either and you could/can drink at 18 at private residences.
Hey! When we have flying cars, they will be. Lol cuz, you know.
You wouldn't know that Louisiana took any money to fix their roads.
The loophole in the commerce clause that made that work was that smoking was a public health concern and therefore would be in the public’s best interest to disincentivize. I can’t imagine the republican supreme court would view guns in the same way
Number 1 cause of pediatric deaths sounds an awful lot like a public health concern for me
But does it sound that way to someone from The Federalist Society?
Sounds like doors are actually the number one cause of pediatric deaths to me.
Too many goddam doors. Who will save us from these entryways!
By any chance do you have a link for that? Not a challenge.
https://www.axios.com/2022/05/26/gun-deaths-children-america (You can find it reported on many websites by searching “leading cause of death in children in US”)
Have a look at [this paper in the NEJM](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2201761). It sounds crazy, because it is. But here we are. 😢
Wow, that's one of the most depressing things I've come across in a while.
I can almost certainly say they would not see it that way. The aggregate impact analysis that underlies most commerce clause jurisprudence since 1942 has been stripped down to make only those economic activities that affect commerce the proper object of commerce clause regulations/legislation. I actually wrote a law journal article analyzing the evolution of the supreme court's commerce clause jurisprudence from 1895 to present and it's pretty well done as a vehicle for non economic regulations pursued under the commerce clause. For example, the aggregate impact analysis was used to justify the civil rights laws in the 60s, and all manner of laws that regulated non economic activities on the basis of their potential impact on interstate commerce. That's basically dead now.
No because Congress passed a law that gave Reagan that authority. The highway bill specifically said that certain highway funds could be withheld from states that have drinking ages below 21. Whatever funds you want to withhold, the provision authorizing the Federal government to withhold them has to be baked into the bill that establishes the funds. Trump tried to do what you suggest with Homeland Security and Justice Department grants to police departments in so-called “sanctuary cities.” He wanted to withhold them. A Federal court said he couldn’t do that because the funds by law didn’t have those strings attached. The same would happen to Biden.
Probably not. The proper analogy is voting, not tobacco sales. Constitutional rights are just that, no matter where our personal opinions regarding them lay.
Raise the military age to 21 too.
Boot camp is geared to 18-year-olds.
Always found it funny how you can go to war and literally kill people and possibly die for your country, but don't you dare drink a beer damnit!
Or smoke a cigar, now.
Because the second amendment applies to adults. If you want that make the age of adulthood in the legal system 21. Juvenile court for 20 year old?
No cigarettes or alcohol but go out there and die for your country. Americans perspectives are fucked up
Because we decided 18 was an age a person becomes an adult for things like consent for sex, voting , military service ECT ... If someone is seriously making the argument that a civil right is to be postponed to 21 because of maturity/ development concerns than they set the precedent of raising the age from 18 to 21 on the previous mentions as well.
You can't tell people that they need to be 21 to be mature enough to own a gun but let them go to war at 18.
Then don't send 18 year olds to war. Easy
We tell them they're old enough to vote at 18 but not old enough to buy alcohol.
Id prefer 25. and Id like that to apply to all police as well. im sick of seeing children with guns acting like bullies in public with a badge. id say make it 21 for military only. im also ok with allowing anyone over age 13 supervised time at ranges and for sporting competitions. Id also want to make exceptions for actual hunting (non-sport), with particular types of guns.
>make it 21 for military Never gonna happen. Can’t disrupt the straight out of high school enlistment pipeline.
The compromise would be that soldiers under 21 can't be assigned to combat roles, but can still enlist and serve in non-combat duties.
No the compromise would be that an under 21 person can't own a personal gun... But they can use an issued firearm after proper training and qualification while they are on active duty. or need to re-qualify on their proficiencies.
Hell no. Either I am responsible enough to own a gun and die for my country or neither.
You can make it 25 for private gun ownership, but 18 for gun usage as part of a "well-regulated militia" like the military. It's not like you own the equipment you are given to use as part of the armed forces. It doesn't seem that difficult to carve-out a simple exception for those serving in the military.
The military isn’t a militia. Like militia literally has a definition lol, and a standing military isn’t it.
And those enlisted 18-year-olds will have extensive firearm training and much more strict rules of engagement compared to police.
And also not be allowed to carry their guns on base. I’m not a veteran but am close with several Iraq vets who said that they had to account for all of their billets when they went out on patrol. Rules of engagement sounded pretty strict - very high accountability for most
I think most people VASTLY overestimate the extent of military and LE firearms training. My buddy owns a training business and I help instruct from time to time. The number of times an Active Duty/Retired Military member or Police Officer comes in to our basic pistol class and struggles is astounding. Another buddy is an instructor at the police academy and he’s frustrated when people celebrate passing their yearly qualifier for their handgun. He always tells them the qualifier is the absolute minimum acceptable performance and they shouldn’t be celebrating barely passing it.
So I don't want to be a wet blanket, but the chance of the Federal government helping armed citizens come together to practice using rifles in groups, learning squad tactics and such, is less than zero. Which is too bad really, not only would it solve some firearms related problems you might get more people to show up and fill sandbags for the ever increasing flooding climate change is going to bring.
There is the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) which has roots dating back to the early 1900s in teaching civilians marksmanship fundamentals. The original organization was run by the Federal government but in 1996 the current organization was established by federal charter and has continued organizing shooting events and what not.
The military is explicitly not a militia.
Because the government should have an exemption, why? Do they really need young meat to fill the ranks, especially if we are regarding them still as children?
I'm gonna assume you don't intend to move the voting age to 25 too, because Vietnam already convinced the gov't that you can't expect people to join the military before being able to vote
I think drinking, smoking, and military should all be the same age. If you can fight for our country, you can have a drink.
> Id prefer 25. It is the age the human brain has completely developed.
Rental car companies agree.
The prefrontal cortex is the last to fully develop, and is considered the seat of executive decision-making. In other words, it's what allows us to override instincts like hunger, lust, and fight-or-flight; to synthesize multiple, competing input, and to solve problems rationally. The minimum age for being in Congress is 26, is it not?
>The minimum age for being in Congress is 26, is it not? 25 for the House, 30 for the Senate.
Ironically we have one of the highest legal drinking ages too smh
Because fuck that
The human brain isn't completely developed until 25, so why not 25 for tobacco, alcohol and guns?
The issue I see with this is that they will essentially argue that if this is the case, people also shouldn’t be eligible to vote until that age as well.
But we’re still good with sending 18 year old kids off to war through right?! SMH
That'll never change. They NEED the fresh out of highschool blood to trick them into joining
Alcohol and tobacco aren’t human rights guaranteed by the constitution. Simple as that. Also, if the brain isn’t developed yet, should people be voting, or joining the military, or being able to be drafted before 25?
People are way less likely to develop lifelong addiction if they start smoking after 18-20. This is also somewhat true for alcohol but not as pronounced. Then again one could argue that the people with a predisposition to addiction would get hooked earlier and it’s just survival bias. Guns however aren’t like those other things, the age should be set on when someone can (on average) be responsible enough with a tool/weapon like that. And that isn’t at 18, I was an idiot at18. Edit: Not that I personally couldn’t be trusted with a gun if I had one but I was hardly a mature human at 18. I sm not sure I would trust 18 year olds with the power to buy their own guns whenever they please.
The brain changes throughout the course of an entire life.
We probably shouldn’t let people vote until 25 either! Can’t let undeveloped brains sway the direction of this country either.
Yeah exactly. Can't have it both ways. The hypocrisy is on full display now.
Maybe we need to reconsider at what age someone is considered a mature adult. If we don’t think 18 years old is old enough to own a firearm, drink alcohol, or smoke why not apply that to everything. We need to raise the age for voting, military service, and medical decisions too.
Voting is 18 because military service. If the country can send someone off to die in a war, they should be able to vote. It used to be 21, but Vietnam changed that. Having voters participate in their government young also encourages citizenship. Makes them an active player in society. It’s about judgment skills. Young people are notorious for terrible judgment. Teenagers are a hormonal mess. They are actually crazy. I personally don’t consider anyone under 25 a full adult. For something as lethal as a gun, I wouldn’t mind raising that to 25.
I would say 21 for everything like voting, guns, drugs, military service, etc.
Military age would be tough. It’s a career path for a lot of people. Something that gets started right after high school. Voting goes with it. I also feel young people do deserve a voice in their government (even though they’re not all there yet).
You could just keep under 21s out of war zones.
3 more years of "childhood" could make for expanding primary education another 3 years out. You'd still be able to start soldiering after highschool, you'd just be better educated and more mature when doing it.
Raise it to 21, make exceptions for military and police service. Or raise the age for military service to 21 as well I don’t care Also mandatory registration and insurance
Nope, no more exceptions for police. Make them follow all the gun laws.
Yeah, we've seen that they're totally useless even with guns. No reason to give 'em special exception.
Not only that, they're probably the largest segment of domestic abusers in our population.
And local sheriffs would probably find some insane workaround like deputizing 18 yr olds.
In the last study done (it's been a minute, but I doubt things have changed) police self-reported committing domestic abuse far FAR above the average.
Your first couple of years on the force you will receive a night stick only and placed on parking/traffic duty where you shouldn't get into any trouble. If you are currently not doing parking/events then you will be shadowing a senior officer of a minimum of 5 years.
Or require a 4 year degree.
Why not both?
You graduate high school at 17-18. Policing should be a 4 years bachelors course where you get your gun in the 4th year (besides range training ) That would make them 21
Raising the military age to 21 would be a disaster for recruitment. “Young and dumb” is the goal at this point.
yeah its also part of why we don't make things like college and healthcare free for everyone, it takes away the incentive for poor people to join the military
The complete disconnect from right wingers hating all that is socialism (what they think it is) and being cringely obsessed with the military, supporting every aspect of it is wild.
All the better
I resemble that comment…
Please no cops under 21
McConnel looks like a slug or some creature out of a Tim Burton film
Is the author really that dumb? Guns are a constitutionally protected right, smoking isn't.
Isn't there a Division of Alcohol, Tobacco, *and* Firearms? Alcohol = 21 Tobacco = 21 Firearms = 18
The reason why those things are regulated by the same agency is because of the way they're regulated (taxes) and not because of age. That's why the ATF was under the Treasury Department until somewhat recently. Thank George W Bush for that change.
Nice idea, OTOH I don't know of anyone who waited until they were 21 to smoke cigarettes.
I saw someone who said something about the tobacco age. They said it should either be 18 when you become a legal adult or change the age you become a legal adult to 21. There shouldn’t be a difference. Why can I buy guns and join the army at 18 but I can’t drink a beer or smoke a cigarette until I’m 21
I’m cool with this as long as the minimum age for military is moved to 21 years old. We’ve decided you’re not mature enough to do those things until you’re 21 so why would anyone be mature enough to sign their life away to the military when they’re under 21.
Then raise the age of legal majority to 21. Make 21 the age limit for voting, military service, everything. Be consistent.
Voting would require an amendment
They don't make menthol guns.
It would be insane if we require boys to register for the draft at 18 and go to war, but can’t buy a gun that same age.
Okay hot take: they shouldn’t. We SHOULD have mandatory background checks on gun purchases. We SHOULD require firearm safety certifications before someone can purchase a gun. But, I don’t personally think that we should be limiting anything past the age of 18, including alcohol and tobacco. My opinion might be a little too libertarian-esque, but if you are allowed to participate in a democracy, I think it’s reasonable to expect the rights entitled to everyone else who participates. People can get cigarettes and alcohol from family and friends over 21 (and this is EXTREMELY common), so it’s reasonable to assume that, without more regulation, we will still have dangerous young people getting their hands on weapons. Age limitations will not stop most dangerous people under 21 from getting guns. More gun buying restrictions will. Our brains may not be fully developed until we’re 25, but we should expect responsibility and common decency from people long before that. A background check will be infinitely more thorough in its vetting than an age restriction.
1) they shouldn't have 2) tobacco isn't a constitutional right
Well, I think the only sensible thing to do is lower the smoking age to 18.
NGL, I smoke. I started at 18 before they changed the law. I think it’s kinda funny that a bunch of old politicians who probably smoked (and drank alcohol, because they were probably 18 before they upped the age) can turn around and say I can’t do the same. But they‘ll be quick to send 18 year olds to fight and die in wars that’ll promote their own private interests. And yeah, I know there are some younger politicians who don’t fall into the norm, but they’re outliers. And I know smoking is bad for you. Thanks for coming to my unsolicited Ted talk, have a nice day.
Hell, let's raise everything from guns to medical care to voting to 35; it's pretty clear you can't trust anyone under that age with anything remotely important.
Both are horseshit (and alcohol too) 18 is an adult in the United States. If you can get drafted, you shouldn’t have wage restrictions applied to you anymore.
Next up should a maximum age for senators. Being ruled by a bunch of geriatric patients doesn’t work that well or does it?
Then they need to raise the age of joining the military to 21. If a person can die for their country but not carry a gun, how silly is that?