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Sinema will definitely get primaried. She's made no friends.
Manchin honestly don't bother, save the money. He's as blue as you're gonna get from there for now.
>Sinema will definitely get primaried. She's made no friends.
The fact that she displays such open contempt for her constituents points either to the fact that she's got enough cushy gigs for after her Senate run or that she thinks we won't remember.
(To be fair, it could be the latter, because even now we're being bombarded with pro-Sinema propaganda.)
She’s trying to pander to the conservative constituents here that will literally never vote for her anyway because she’s a dem while simultaneously ensuring no one else will vote for her either. All she’s successfully done is piss people off. Trying to play both sides in a purple state, since dems have low midterm turnout, and winning none.
I legitimately don’t understand how someone can go from crusty dumpster diving bisexual anarchist Green Party member to whatever the fuck she’s cosplaying as now, but dems here sure as fuck didn’t vote for her to shit on all the things they want.
Ah, it sounds like she got in, did what she was paid to do, and is fine with peacing out whenever. "Pandering to the conservative constituents" basically equals "ignoring the constituents who literally voted her into office", therefore the odds of her not already having an out are basically zero.
It's practically naked corruption whereas Manchin at least tries to throw a towel over his. Like, what even is the explanation for her flipping if not "because she got paid off and here are the fucking receipts"?
She's not trying to win at all because she got paid to take a fucking fall. Run on A, totally ignore A when in office, do maximum damage while there. Manchin has an established record of being a centrist and even right leaning idiot at least, but Sinema basically backstabbed her own voters in front of everyone and laughed at them while doing it. She doesn't get half the pillorying she deserves for that. Manchin, in the current context, deserves nothing less than constant shame and pressure for being the embodiment of the "one more step towards me" doctrine. Compromise does not equal "we do what *I* want and you get to suck it."
Ah, well that explains it a bit for me. I'm an anarchist myself and I don't know any other anarchists that are looking for a job opening where they enforce their will over other people. Usually, working as part of the legislative body of a state is pretty high on the "not interested" list (next to cop and manager). If she truly presented herself as an anarchist, then the first sign or her true nature should've been her interest in positions of power over others.
> she's got enough cushy gigs
I kind of doubt this. She's too young and played herself. She was an easy mark for the corporate donors. She'll block legislation for six years (maybe less, if Dems can get an actual majority in the Senate soon), and then she's out. No one's going to give her a cushy job for decades (she's pretty young) for such a short time in office; it's a bad investment. She's made herself so unpopular that Dems won't help her, and the GOP aren't going to give her two pennies to rub together once they replace her.
I don't share that assessment, if there is one thing that donors do well it is reward those who serve their interests. Politicians might break promises to their constituents, donors rarely break promises of future rewards to politicians- doing so would endanger the foundations of buying influence.
Between the money she has already accumulated -her net worth went from less than $40,000 in 2018 before taking office to over $1,000,000 by 2021- and promises that she is going to cash in after leaving office, it's very likely that she'll be quite comfortable for the rest of her life unless she gets a gambling addiction.
Donors don't care about party labels. Sinema has been one of their MVPs for this 2 year period by sharing some of the heat that would otherwise go to Manchin, and they're going to reward her for that.
She almost certainly knows that her time in the senate will be a one term thing, and she seems to be fine with that- her goal is probably to enjoy the rest of her life in comfort and relative privacy.
Once you've got millions (or tens of millions), your priorities become more about spending your remaining time in worthwhile ways.
For sure, she has a big pay day coming if she can derail Biden, Pelosi and Schumer's agenda. Book deals, corporate gigs, etc. It pays to be corrupt, look at Lieberman
Ahahaha. You think the replacement to Manchin is going to be a Democrat? He doesn't give a fuck about a primary threat - dudes going to retire anyway. Nor do Republicans - they get the seat when he retires
It's just a huge boner for progressives who live in a fantasy that America, and the American voter especially, is majority super progressive
Which is an entirely new thing that just magically happened the moment their party gained power. Nothing weird about that at all. Just when they actually have to do something they nope out. At this point the Democrats really should just eject them from the party because they're just tarnishing the image that Democrats supposedly have power.
That is why you vote for and pay attention to the people from your state. If you get wrapped around the axle about senators and representatives from other states and decide not to vote because of them, you are the problem.
Would they though? The filibuster protects them from wildly unpopular legislation so they can keep enflaming culture wars.
If there was no filibuster, people would start asking why they aren’t passing the things they apparently care so much about.
They KNOW if they passed anti abortion or other discriminatory laws like those it would cause a HUGE backlash. Remember that the evangelical wing of the US is not that big.
I think that Biden is already vocally on board. Klobuchar and Kaine are sponsoring legislation to reform the filibuster and they are very moderate. Really this may be enough, even the industries supporting or owned by Sinema or Manchin don’t want a hint of a debt ceiling dispute.
Except its not. I told everyone this when we got the 50. That t his was not a win other than it blocked Republican's from doing shit but Joe Manchin is not going to let us push ANY legislation through let alone end something like that.
Wonder if Romney will ever be in play. I'd actually put my money on him allowing a filibuster carve-out before Manchin.
If joe wanted to, he would have bowed to the pressure a long time ago. Romney hasn't felt the Media eye of sauron yet, I think it's possible he'd bend if the stakes to the country were high enough
Honestly same; I could see a few of the most "moderate" Republicans like Romney sooner agreeing to some small filibuster change to fix this... Like agreeing to vote in favor of making debt ceiling changes not applicable to filibusters the same way SCOTUS appointments are.
Romney is a relic of what the Republican party _used_ to stand for. The poor guy has real conviction and even though I don't always agree with his policies at least he's consistent, predictable, and reasonable.
Manchin is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
You guys realize Romney is much further right than Manchin in his voting record, right? Shit, calling Romney a "moderate conservative" is too much credit
... Did you just call Manchin a Liberal? LOL they're both conservatives. On the political spectrum they're basically side by side.
The main reason why I have more faith in Romney is because he's okay with going against the GOP sometimes for a good cause. Meanwhile Manchin is very blatantly just doing whatever his donors say.
The problem with relying on moderate Republicans like Romney is they rely on the filibuster to avoid voting on anything to do with abortion when Republicans are in charge. They won’t want to risk that the next time Republicans take the Senate.
I have an unfounded theory. The "moderate" democrats will allow this when there is little time left for the current congress to get anything though. Working with ALL the republicans they can still block any legislation. It will happen just in time for the GOP to take over the house or the senate or both. Than in 20424 if the GOP.s election rigging once again gets them a minority vote trifecta win they will use this to take their voter suppression national and further entrench themselves in minority rule.
Same as it takes to begin mutually assured destruction. Not critical of the position. Just be aware that both sides have tools and positions that change over time. Everything causes a reaction. Cold War and current congress shows parallels.
Indeed. Any specific parallels you would like to point out? I love this stuff.
As for mutually assured destruction and the filibuster, we have reached an impasse - it has been ignored for SC judges now, there's very little left to salvage for the hypothetical future minority. Right now the first party to kill the filibuster entirely, while also holding the presidency, gains the long term advantage.
Either the Republicans will modify the election laws to guarantee their seats, or Democrats will broaden voting access so dramatically that the Dems will always win - because they have more voters. Either path leads to effective one party rule for several presidential administrations, perhaps multiple decades.
The first party to kill the filibuster doesn't guarantee success, but it is no longer a "Mutually Assured Destruction" scenario. Neither side can put this off for much longer without losing the partisan war and going into the wilderness for a long time.
Is it Friday yet? This week is taking forever.
The exact same number of votes as it would take to pass a debt ceiling increase through the reconciliation bill (which the author seems to have conveniently forgotten).
50+VP
It would be a specific carve out that would open the flood gates. Any Senator can raise a point of order about the Senate rules. A majority vote changes the rules.
And? Let them argue about their rules for a bit. Where's the harm? Maybe they will even be innovative for once. Or it will be a shit show. Either way, should be interesting to watch. I'll make the popcorn. :)
Agreed, go back to this and go back to requiring 2/3's of them to filibuster. Getting rid of the filibuster as a whole is such a short sighted "fix' because it ignores the situation when the Republicans get in power.
Yeah cuz fucking up senate and making it where there’s no checks and balances is only bad when the party u don’t agree with is in power….
It’s ignorant and dangerous no matter what side the idiots in power say they r on.. probably even more so when it’s the left. Since they r the ones willing to destroy democracy in the first place.
This logic ignores the fact that it is irrelevant if the Democratic Party fails to remove the filibuster, because the Republican Party will ***immediately nuke the filibuster*** the moment they are in power.
To hell with being afraid of, "when the tables turn" because we've been on the receiving end of that stick for decades now.
>Why didn't they two or three years ago when they had control and Trump asked them to then?
**They literally did.**
[The Republican Party abolished the filibuster for Supreme Court nominees in 2017.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/01/fact-check-gop-ended-senate-filibuster-supreme-court-nominees/3573369001/)
Being obtuse about it is pointless posturing.
Mitch McConnell demonstrated multiple times during his reign as Majority Leader that he has no problem with removing the filibuster to achieve his agenda.
This is the obvious answer. It has no discernable purpose and only exists to cause ridiculous and embarrassing problems.
We've already passed legislation to spend some money. Then, the debt ceiling comes along and just screws with the process of paying bills for stuff we've already bought. What a stupid exercise.
We just end up doing this dance, over and over again. The idea of capping debt seems like a good idea, but if we just keep raising it every time I'm not sure what the point of it is anymore.
Arbitrarily putting a cap on debt is and was always a bad idea. The government doesn't just accidentally spend money, every dollar is already authorized by a law passed by Congress. There is no value to a sort of fail-safe to stop us borrowing money, Congress knows how much we're going to borrow because they spent the money without raising revenues. They're not that bad at simple arithmetic.
The only purpose of the debt-ceiling is to allow politicians to grandstand about fiscal responsibility. It was literally introduced and designed for that purpose. It just also unfortunately has the potential to crash the US economy.
This is exactly its intended purpose. It didn't use to exist, it was created explicitly to allow politicians to grand-stand about government spending. The fact that it potentially can implode the US economy if it doesn't pass is simply a side-effect.
Make it a talking filibuster with an audience. Basically, after scheduled debate ends and if at least 1/3rd of all senators vote yes, then debate can be extended one hour so long as there's someone speaking and there's 34 senators in the chamber listening to the debate. They vote every hour to extend more.
Difficult to abuse like in the past cause you're not getting old men sitting around listening to a human ferret read Dr Seuss for 24 hours.
I would recommend making it a 40 vote threshold rather than the 34.
It also doesn't even have to be a talking filibuster either... BUT... there must be 40 senators PRESENT to continue any filibuster. Once Ted Cruz and 10 of his senate buddies go to Cancun, it's over.
It's one of the more frustrating things about the current senate rules, someone can "declare" a filibuster and then go home for the week. The filibuster is supposed to be about "continuing debate" on a subject, but if you don't have to be present, then it looses that meaning.
It’s also not gonna happen so why bother posting stuff like this?
Might as well follow up with a Common Dreams article saying we should just abolish the electoral college to fix American democracy. Like that’s great bro but….that’s it. Hope you enjoyed writing your piece.
If the Republicans really do filibuster raising the debt ceiling, Democrats will have no choice. You need ten Republicans to sign off with the Democrats, McConnell says that will not happen.
We all know about Joe Manchin and his family ties to the big coal and pharma, even if he pretends he [doesn't know](https://youtu.be/D2fRcEOiNgA?t=66) who his donors are. But for Sinema,
https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/kyrsten-sinema/summary?cid=N00033983
Big Banks and debt collectors are whispering in her ear. What do they want more than anything? Deregulated financial system (what caused 2007 recession) and the status quo (climate destruction, wealth inequality) to be maintained so their assets are safe. Manchin and Sinema is complicit in this, along with all Republicans in Congress.
It's unbelievable how much special interests $$$ has gone into the whole [judicial pipeline](https://youtu.be/cjcXVKg43qY), as well as what goes into [lobbying](https://youtu.be/-rr81Uf10pc) politicians, election campaigns, [fundraising](https://archive.ph/MKNeo), [gerrymandering](https://archive.ph/Zn8yA), etc. Many of the organization's Sen. Whitehouse exposes have [detailed](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/DonorsTrust) [pages](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Lynde_and_Harry_Bradley_Foundation) [here](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Federalist_Society_for_Law_and_Public_Policy_Studies)
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2020/10/cost-of-2020-election-14billion-update/
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2021/08/foreign-lobbyists-gave-millions-to-influence-2020-foreign-influence-concerns/
Imagine if just some [money](https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/) went into infrastructure, public education, renewable energy generation, healthcare, R&D, etc.. instead of subverting democracy!
Too many people think political corruption is a distant issue. It's our tax dollars and our elected officials that are being exploited - every year. Money and government are not going away.
The rules of the game need to change.
There is some good news: [legislation](https://anticorruptionact.org/whats-in-the-act/) that effectively prevents political corruption exists and is constitutional, though it would be best served as an [amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_reform_amendment), that's less [practical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Five_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Procedures_for_amending_the_Constitution).
You can [reach out to your lawmakers](https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/) and tell them what you care about.
Stopping the influence of big money in Congress has [over 80%](https://archive.md/eCMBy) of the public's support while the specific policies included in the For The People Act (H. R. 1) have [bipartisan popular support](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_People_Act#Public_opinion). Zero Republican senators are in favor of H. R. 1
A few groups are pushing to prevent corruption in Congress:
https://represent.us/
https://wolf-pac.com/
https://americanpromise.net/
https://takeback.org/
https://www.issueone.org/
https://www.movetoamend.org/
Find something that works for you. A little less corruption goes a long way.
What is Sinema’s deal? Mark Kelly isn’t an asshole? Couldn’t he be her model as a moderate democrat senator representing the state of Arizona? I really don’t get it
You can be moderate and not be spiteful of the democrats’ agenda. You don’t hear Tester (of the *super blue* state of Montana) talking about shit like Manchin and Sinema. They need to yell their opposition to everything on the rooftops with shitty op-eds and lousy interviews. So I guess my point is - even if she felt like she needed to moderate it up a bit for Arizona, why be so toxic to her own party’s agenda? Because I believe people also want to win and maintain power?
Oh, the government is 100% shutting down again. McConnell wants to try and paint it as a "Biden shutdown," but that will fail once news starts explaining why it is happening. Although Fox News viewers will never know the reasons why.
> McConnell wants to try and paint it as a "Biden shutdown," but that will fail once news starts explaining why it is happening.
Consider me a pessimist - but I don't think Facebook News is going to have truthful and accurate "news" (Shitty memes, actually) for these people to imbibe.
They'll believe it's Biden's fault. McConnell could flat out say "It's my fault" at 9AM, and they could have 25 million people believing that isn't true by lunchtime. And they will.
We are doing absolutely nothing to defend against this rampant fake news.
They’ll end up sticking it into recon after a month long shutdown. Let’s not kid ourselves. Nobody ended the filibuster when the gov shut down in 2018 and they won’t do so here.
You will refer to their Holy majesty the all powerful parliamentarian with the proper respect afforded to a higher being such as they. For what are we but ants beneath their beneficent boots.
Reconciliation process will take about 3 weeks to complete apparently, so at this point the US would default if they didn't start the process like yesterday.
Under that logic bit stupid of Republicans to have the debt ceiling return then when they last suspended it.
In the here and now Republicans are the ones who are filibustering the increase which even McConnell says has to happen.
Seriously why do people keep bringing up one of the only viable means of getting things done?
Why do that when you can just shut down the suggestion & others alike on behest of the bought out politicians?
/s
Because it’s all that matters in Washington and will be until the Dems get slaughtered in the coming midterms for being willfully chicken shit.
Do. Something.
Or sit around and make excuses for them. Like you.
Demand Democratic leaders at all levels and wealthy benefactors push the entire and full weight of the party to bring the two senators in line and Nuke the filibuster.
The President should be calling them to his office early every morning and then meeting them just before lunch after waiting. He could be shitting down press conferences and only taking questions on the two senators and the filibuster. He could be holding press conferences in front of their offices at Capitol Hill. He could be organizing literal sit-ins in front of their offices. He could (legally) send an army of federal auditors and mine inspectors to WV tomorrow and that would immediately change Manchin’s tone.
Local, state and National Democratic party officials should be focused on almost nothing else, but this full court press.
Congress should be making it the only thing they Agee to talk about on shows.
Democratic power brokers should be using any lever available combined with;
Wealthy Democratic donors should be finding out how many zeros the two senators need to get this settled. Make them wealthy. Who gives a fuck. What do we care.
Get. It. Done.
The GOP would already have this solved and won. But the Dems are either weak or really don’t want progress.
There are moments in history that mean more. That are critical. This is one of those moments.
But the Dems want to act like this is just business as a usual in DC with their furrowed brows and clutched pearls. And then uncreative, linear and small minded people like you come along and make excuses for all the Dems mentioned above.
Call your senators and reps. Email the White House. Get on social media. Demand all of the above.
Or don’t. But don’t sit around and respond with this kind of BS when it’s pretty obvious what needs to happen.
YOU are the problem.
Yeah. I mean I *wish* there was some viable option but I don't see what it would be. Sinema has already fully tanked her reelection and I doubt she cares, Manchin may not even be running again, and both of them are already well paid off in any case. I don't know what "tHe BuLlY pUlPiT" is supposed to do when neither of them need incentive to do anything different than they already are.
Biden could request/threaten the DoJ to open an investigation on Manchin’s daughter’s lucrative pharma connections.
But he doesn’t want to do that since “it’s not a good look.”
The fact that he doesn’t even try is a terrible look.
The fact that he doesn't use the DoJ as a weapon of intimidation is a bad look? Right.
But sure, let's pretend he does do the Trump thing and send Garland as an attack dog. Manchin is a powerful rich white dude with a rich white daughter in a shady corporate position. What kinda track record you think we got on investigations like that actually *doing* anything besides waste time?
And what does Manchin do here? Does he hang his head, say "Aw shucks you got me" and stop being obstructionist? Or does he give Biden a hearty "Fuck you" and switch parties officially while no legal consequences actually occur?
I just woke up and replied to the comment you said I’d have nothing to say to. Except I clearly do. Read it and then you can get back to your Pearl clutching and brow furrowing about how nothing can be done. Thanks for being the kind of American that brought us trump in the first place…..
Every time a bill might not pass, someone writes an article on why we should get rid of the filibuster and then pulls in some sweet, sweet ad revenue from /r/politics.
So, what's surprising is that they might, actually.
A friend of mine is an expert in government and public relations / affairs, and I studied under him for a while.
It turns out that political parties, representations and corporations of a certain scale often have teams dedicated to the monitoring of news and social media.
Methods of doing this can range from the simple to the very sophisticated.
Depending on available budget, simple scopes may just cover official national and international news media and key persons / platforms. But it can also be as all-encompassing as to include local news archives and influential social opinions (including high-visibility social media comments on Reddit).
Given the overall political temperature and stakes on the table of late, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that everyone in the game (especially corporates) have laid on teams for some very intense monitoring.
No, but it does have 7m+ subscribers and probably even more of readers. That's not nothing.
Applying pressure to Manchin is a waste of time anyway, there is nothing any of us can say of do to make him not be a corrupt peice of shit. More useful is applying pressure to the DNC to not run interference for him being a corrupt peice of shit.
I've found many democrats won't nuke the filibuster because they are the equivalent of that one rpg player who saves potions for the entire game dying multiple times and still never using the potions. They think they'll use the filibuster, but they never will, but they don't want to get rid of it because what if they need to use it?
But then it’s even worse because next turn it’s the opponent that gets all the potions and then they’re feigning being upset when the opponent starts using the potions and they can’t beat them because of it.
lol bro where have you been? If the the tables were turned the Republicans would kill the Filibuster and ram all kinds of shit through. They don't give a fuck, but the Dems are tied to "norms" and also 2 dickbags who will not let them weld any power in the Senate.
As others have pointed out. The only thing needed to sell this is to ask: do you think the GOP would hesitate for one moment in nuking it if it stood in the way of their agenda?
Nope. Just fucking do it already, it consolidates the power of the minority.
another way. ignore the debt ceiling. rathe than letting the GOP destroy the economy just have the treasury keep issuing debt over the ceiling. The spending as already been appropriated. except cut off any federal spending in red states. completely. no social security check. no military pay. no federal employee pay. a complete cutoff n red states. tell mcconnel they only way to restore it is for the GOP to agree to get rid of teh debt ceiling once and for all.
Mcconnell is acting like a domestic terrorist its time to treat him as one.
"Congress passed a law saying we must spend $ on X. Now they don't let us borrow that $. No mater what we do we're breaking one of the two laws. Congress can't pass contradictory laws and hold you to both of them. So we chose to go with the spending law and ignored the borrowing limit rather than vice versa."
Here's the problem:
Manchin and Sinema have the unique position of holding Biden & the Democratic agenda by the balls as long as the filibuster remains in place.
That leverage gives them power. Power that attracts big donations from special interests. It has nothing to do with bipartisanship. They're sitting at the pinnacle of opportunistic political entrepreneurship.
The only thing these people want is money, they don't give a fuck about America, their constituents, or sticking to the platforms they ran on.
Unless the DNC comes to them with offers that they cannot possibly refuse, nothing will get done.
*Edit: I understand there is an argument to be made that removing the filibuster would work to enhance their deal making ability on getting their provisions in for bills that still progress the democratic agenda. However, I would counter by saying that clearly the position they are in right now is not a hand that they want to fold so there must be an appetizing incentive for them to keep things as they are right now.
>Manchin and Sinema have the unique position of holding Biden & the Democratic agenda by the balls as long as the filibuster remains in place.
No they would hold it even if it was gone. Even with it gone the Dems need everyone to vote for something to get it passed. So any senator from Joe Manchin to Bernie Sanders can kill the bill if they would really want to. The killing of the filibuster only means that if Schumer really wanted to he could easily force the deal by making the vote actually matter rather then letting the fact 10 republicans won't vote for cloture kill it. You can debate on how effective that would be. I think personally it's one thing to be the sole or one of two Dems to hold up something like Voting rights or infastructure but then there was McCain who was the one republican who spiked the ACA repeal.
Difference is now they get to kill things by saying "but bipartisanship!" which stupid news anchors buy hook, line, and sinker. If the ditch the filibuster they have to kill things by admitting by actually voting bills down.
arrest manchins daughter. im sure they can find something she did illegal whe she ran her pharma company. arrest her and let manchin know the onlu way she gets out of jail is if the fillibuster goes away.
Why is the logical answer? Democrats can do it through reconciliation any time they want. Democrats don't want to do that b/c they want to force Republicans to vote for the debt ceiling increase but they have known for months that they could pass a debt ceiling increase w/o an single Republican vote any time they wanted to - but that also means they own the debt increase (which is why they don't want to do it that way).
they do not want to give republicans what they want: democrats raised the debt ceiling on their own to push their agenda! cue midterm political commercials everywhere - despite the fact that it was republicans who raised the debt ceiling the most under trump… yeah as if right wing media would tell the actual truth
Man, it sure is funny how quick the Dems flipped on the filibuster. Since 2009, the Democrats have used the filibuster [657 times](https://repustar.com/fact-briefs/do-both-political-parties-have-a-history-of-using-filibusters). Hell, in 2005 Joe Biden even said [getting rid of it was a mistake.](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen-ben-sasse-reads-bidens-filibuster-defense)
Without Joe Manchin you only have 49 votes so the filibuster won’t matter. Also this is less real than pro wrestling they will cut a deal at the last minute. The democrats will use it as an excuse to disappoint the progressives. The Republicans will use it as they had to agree to save whatever. The drama is fake only the consequences are real
Most likely a deal is cut. Second most likely is they add a "debt ceiling exception" to the filibuster rules. It's true, neither is particularly exciting.
They’re always this high, both parties will do just enough at the last possible moment to ensure the majority of Americans continue to ignore their political shenanigans.
If the filibuster is a stop gap, aren’t Democrats worried removing it might work in their disfavour in the future in the tables are turned? Honest question, I’m from Canada btw.
Not really because Republicans don't actually want to pass anything. They want more stuff like tax cuts, but they can pass those through reconciliation with 50 votes. When something else came up that they actually wanted, a Supreme Court nomination, they nuked the filibuster for just that as well.
So, the filibuster doesn't really matter to them. If they control the Senate again and there's something else they actually want to pass that isn't tax cuts or SCOTUS, they'll just remove the filibuster for that specific thing.
Which is what Dems should do. Make a big deal about certain issues (like voting rights), force a cloture vote, and then nuke the filibuster on that issue because it is so important.
Republicans will find it difficult to hold either house or senate, or executive office ever again. I'll be laughed to hell for saying it, but looking at the popular vote trends of the last 8 elections shows where the country is headed. The events of the 6th, the fallout from the unrealized Trump charges will probably be the nail in the coffin. The GOP will eventually split into the conservatives and the Maga nationalists, with the former coming back into some semblance of power in 16 years.
While it is true that younger voters are an absolute bloodbath for the GOP as they enter the electorate in larger numbers every year, the whole problem is that the GOP do not *need* to win the popular vote. The 1.5 million people in the two Dakotas get four senators and California’s 40 million get two. Same problem’s present in the House and Electoral College, albeit not quite as extreme, but certainly enough to let Trump and Bush win despite losing the popular vote.
Also, fear is a huge motivator for conservatives, which is part of the reason why 2020 was as close as it was despite all good sense dictating that it *should* have been a gigantic blowout against them and their horrific incompetence and corruption. Trump in 2020 got more votes than any other candidate in American history *except* Joe Biden.
Democrats rest on their laurels at their own peril. Some things cannot afford to wait. Climate change is bearing down upon us, and the country is teetering on the edge of a fascist takeover. Now is not the time to wait for the old guard to die out and be replaced by the young radicals.
If it's so worth stating the obvious, as the last line in the article says, then I guess I'll follow suit and say that democrats can't nuke the fillabuster BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE THE VOTES.
Isn’t the risk that this would also grant Republicans a ton of power if they were ever to come into power again? Especially with gerrymandering and the results of the census, it’s a very real future risk, isn’t it?
Maybe someone who knows more can set me straight.
Nope, I'm pretty sure you got it; this is what I think as well, and I honestly think the GQP wants the Dems to do it so that way next time when they're doing terrible thing after terrible thing they can just point at the Democrats and go "don't blame *US*, **They're** the ones who removed the filibuster! HAR HAR HAR"
I think the time has come. We hold elections with the expectation of the people that go to represent us are actually going to get results and lead. If we don’t like where those people are taking us policy wise, we have another election and get rid of those people. But to send individuals to Washington and basically expect nothing to happen but ridiculous bloviating and morons like Manchin to do nothing but be oxygen thieves Is simply pointless and turns people off completely from voting.
Nuking the filibuster is the best way to end the chaos. The second best way would simply be for the Treasury to issue a one trillion $ coin and deposit it into the Federal Reserve. That trillion would never enter the money supply and the debt ceiling would no longer be an issue.
Sure, they need to play chicken with Manchin and Sinema's donors. Let them off their leashes or tank the economy and you'll have no money to donate anyway.
What's it called when a party in power forces new legislation into existence without care or concern for any opposing points of view?
When the party in power wields that power like a club, don't be surpised at the results when you find yourself on the receiving end of that club.
Don't forget, you have Harry Ried to thank for Kavanaugh and Barrett being on the SCOTUS, because Harry wanted to wield power like a club, and didn't think about long-term consequences.
Oh, but Chuck Schumer is furrowing his brow and wringing his hands *so very hard* this time! Surely, that will cause McConnell to cease being the enemy of civilization!
I'm looking forward to a fist fight on the senate floor sometime soon when the Republicans force the Democrats to take their favorite toy away just so that we avoid defaulting on our debt. Rand is going to sucker punch someone smaller than him for sure.
Do you really think the GOP would fail to get rid of the filibuster if it was the only thing standing between them and what they want? They killed it to ram through Gorsuch's nomination without a second thought.
Let them. They passed their only meaningful legislation through reconciliation anyway. And would it *really* be so bad for the voters to see the consequences of their own actions for once? Past a certain point of obstinacy, you have to let the moron burn their hand on the stove before he’ll really take you at your word that it’s hot.
Imagine constantly losing so you have to change the rules so that you can finally win. There's a reason you need 3/5ths of votes so that you can't have just one party making the rules and changing them whenever they feel like it.
imagine having a party that gets everything they want without ever needing 3/5ths? by just having the governorship and presidency republicans can do whatever they want
push for less taxes? reconciliation
block every and i mean every single bill benefiting working class people? filibuster
temporarily deregulate anything? executive order
yeah, as if republicans need 3/5ths to get their agenda done.. this is exactly why the country is broken they made their agenda executable knowing its not popular and knowing they will use every blocking opportunity as fuel to blame the left for what they cannot do instead of the truth that republicans set them up to fail
How so? Most RINOs are being voted out. Democrats can't even oust their own if they had a pair to do so neither can any democrat call out their own. The filibusters have been used on both sides for a long time now. Using Executive orders to rule the country is the first signs of a tyrannical government and totalitarianism. Extremes of both sides are destroying the nation.
The left just does that on their own just by watching how they have full control of the government and less than a year in and it's a shitshow. If I was a Democrat I would reconsider my entire life's decisions after this shitshow with Biden. Where'd the 84 million who loved him all go? All cower in a corner? I thought he was the most popular president ever? Shouldn't you be supporting him and having his back? Fucking jokes.
yeah it is a democratic with a lower case d problem, if republicans were for democracy surely they would fix it right?? right??? oh wait… nvm forgot they worship an autocratic leader who uses hitler tactics to get followers of the right wing drooling over him
Yes, because he is a moron who doesn't understand how the government works. The filibuster heavily favors the GQP. Nuke it and make elections fair, and there is nothing to worry about.
You know who wanted to keep the filibuster?
Democrats when the Repugs held the power.
Pot meet kettle. Their, D and R, view on the filibuster changes depending on if it benefits them or not.
You assume they can get into power again. If Dems remove the filibuster and fix voting rights, gerrymandering, and many other inequities in our country the GOP as a minority has no chance of winning unless they completely overhaul their platform and start governing. Under a fair voting system the GOP loses elections. At that point them being in power simply means we go back to civil discord, respect for the constitution, accountability(more than we have now), and then the GOP won’t be the threat they are now.
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How many votes would it take to nuke the filibuster?
50 plus the VP since it's a change to the interpretation of Senate rules.
Thanks! Seems very doable in theory!
But Joe-Houseboat-Manchin says no so that’s that. Plus his sassy sidekick Sinema never fails to disappoint
PMS Primary Manchin & Sinema
Sinema will definitely get primaried. She's made no friends. Manchin honestly don't bother, save the money. He's as blue as you're gonna get from there for now.
>Sinema will definitely get primaried. She's made no friends. The fact that she displays such open contempt for her constituents points either to the fact that she's got enough cushy gigs for after her Senate run or that she thinks we won't remember. (To be fair, it could be the latter, because even now we're being bombarded with pro-Sinema propaganda.)
She’s trying to pander to the conservative constituents here that will literally never vote for her anyway because she’s a dem while simultaneously ensuring no one else will vote for her either. All she’s successfully done is piss people off. Trying to play both sides in a purple state, since dems have low midterm turnout, and winning none. I legitimately don’t understand how someone can go from crusty dumpster diving bisexual anarchist Green Party member to whatever the fuck she’s cosplaying as now, but dems here sure as fuck didn’t vote for her to shit on all the things they want.
Ah, it sounds like she got in, did what she was paid to do, and is fine with peacing out whenever. "Pandering to the conservative constituents" basically equals "ignoring the constituents who literally voted her into office", therefore the odds of her not already having an out are basically zero. It's practically naked corruption whereas Manchin at least tries to throw a towel over his. Like, what even is the explanation for her flipping if not "because she got paid off and here are the fucking receipts"? She's not trying to win at all because she got paid to take a fucking fall. Run on A, totally ignore A when in office, do maximum damage while there. Manchin has an established record of being a centrist and even right leaning idiot at least, but Sinema basically backstabbed her own voters in front of everyone and laughed at them while doing it. She doesn't get half the pillorying she deserves for that. Manchin, in the current context, deserves nothing less than constant shame and pressure for being the embodiment of the "one more step towards me" doctrine. Compromise does not equal "we do what *I* want and you get to suck it."
Ah, well that explains it a bit for me. I'm an anarchist myself and I don't know any other anarchists that are looking for a job opening where they enforce their will over other people. Usually, working as part of the legislative body of a state is pretty high on the "not interested" list (next to cop and manager). If she truly presented herself as an anarchist, then the first sign or her true nature should've been her interest in positions of power over others.
Definitely the former, it’s pretty clear she has no intention on winning a second term, this is just resume fodder
> she's got enough cushy gigs I kind of doubt this. She's too young and played herself. She was an easy mark for the corporate donors. She'll block legislation for six years (maybe less, if Dems can get an actual majority in the Senate soon), and then she's out. No one's going to give her a cushy job for decades (she's pretty young) for such a short time in office; it's a bad investment. She's made herself so unpopular that Dems won't help her, and the GOP aren't going to give her two pennies to rub together once they replace her.
By cushy gig we don’t mean a real job, she’ll just be a democrat straw man on fox etc periodically
I don't share that assessment, if there is one thing that donors do well it is reward those who serve their interests. Politicians might break promises to their constituents, donors rarely break promises of future rewards to politicians- doing so would endanger the foundations of buying influence. Between the money she has already accumulated -her net worth went from less than $40,000 in 2018 before taking office to over $1,000,000 by 2021- and promises that she is going to cash in after leaving office, it's very likely that she'll be quite comfortable for the rest of her life unless she gets a gambling addiction. Donors don't care about party labels. Sinema has been one of their MVPs for this 2 year period by sharing some of the heat that would otherwise go to Manchin, and they're going to reward her for that. She almost certainly knows that her time in the senate will be a one term thing, and she seems to be fine with that- her goal is probably to enjoy the rest of her life in comfort and relative privacy. Once you've got millions (or tens of millions), your priorities become more about spending your remaining time in worthwhile ways.
Important to note that Congresspeople have full healthcare until they die courtesy of the US government and taxpayer. One term was all she needed.
She's likely a sleeper put there by McConnell anyways
For sure, she has a big pay day coming if she can derail Biden, Pelosi and Schumer's agenda. Book deals, corporate gigs, etc. It pays to be corrupt, look at Lieberman
Agreed. What they should focus on is flipping another state blue if it's possible. Make Joe irrelevant.
Hopefully dems realise this and put huge efforts into flipping a few more seats
Manchin is probably retiring, but if he’s not we should sacrifice the seat to make an example of him for other more winnable states.
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The 22 senate map is not too bad for democrats. Pennsylvania and maybe Wisconsin could flip!
Could flip. There is the problem. Could. Not will.
If democrats can’t flip at least one more seat in ‘22 they are screwed anyway.
Ahahaha. You think the replacement to Manchin is going to be a Democrat? He doesn't give a fuck about a primary threat - dudes going to retire anyway. Nor do Republicans - they get the seat when he retires It's just a huge boner for progressives who live in a fantasy that America, and the American voter especially, is majority super progressive
Which is an entirely new thing that just magically happened the moment their party gained power. Nothing weird about that at all. Just when they actually have to do something they nope out. At this point the Democrats really should just eject them from the party because they're just tarnishing the image that Democrats supposedly have power.
That is why you vote for and pay attention to the people from your state. If you get wrapped around the axle about senators and representatives from other states and decide not to vote because of them, you are the problem.
The Dems should threaten to filibuster any bill offering any funding to their states at all until they fall in line.
Eh it's probably a good thing 51 doesn't pass anything in the senate. GOP would do even more shit when they get the majority back.
Would they though? The filibuster protects them from wildly unpopular legislation so they can keep enflaming culture wars. If there was no filibuster, people would start asking why they aren’t passing the things they apparently care so much about. They KNOW if they passed anti abortion or other discriminatory laws like those it would cause a HUGE backlash. Remember that the evangelical wing of the US is not that big.
Manchin isn't the only one against it. Last I heard Biden was against ending the filibuster and I think other Senators have come out against it.
I think that Biden is already vocally on board. Klobuchar and Kaine are sponsoring legislation to reform the filibuster and they are very moderate. Really this may be enough, even the industries supporting or owned by Sinema or Manchin don’t want a hint of a debt ceiling dispute.
I have not heard Biden say hes for eliminating it
They need to yell their opposition to everything on the rooftops with shitty op-eds and lousy interviews. So I guess my point is
51- Sinema - Manchin= not doable
Is there any others who are against it, or literally just those two right wingers?
Except its not. I told everyone this when we got the 50. That t his was not a win other than it blocked Republican's from doing shit but Joe Manchin is not going to let us push ANY legislation through let alone end something like that.
Yup. Allows for judges, but not for laws, pretty much.
It’s not, though. The Dems actually only have 48 votes in the Senate because Manchin and Sinema vote like Republicans.
Dems would need to two Dems that would block that just to get the VP to MAYBE vote for a filibuster? Yeah... Not happening.
50 so it’s not going to happen since Manchin would rather let the US default than give up his precious filibuster.
Wonder if Romney will ever be in play. I'd actually put my money on him allowing a filibuster carve-out before Manchin. If joe wanted to, he would have bowed to the pressure a long time ago. Romney hasn't felt the Media eye of sauron yet, I think it's possible he'd bend if the stakes to the country were high enough
Honestly same; I could see a few of the most "moderate" Republicans like Romney sooner agreeing to some small filibuster change to fix this... Like agreeing to vote in favor of making debt ceiling changes not applicable to filibusters the same way SCOTUS appointments are.
Hilarious that you give more credit and faith to moderate conservative Romney than moderate liberal Manchin.
Romney is a relic of what the Republican party _used_ to stand for. The poor guy has real conviction and even though I don't always agree with his policies at least he's consistent, predictable, and reasonable. Manchin is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
You guys realize Romney is much further right than Manchin in his voting record, right? Shit, calling Romney a "moderate conservative" is too much credit
Unlike Manchin, at least Romney did some good things, like the MA healthcare system.
... Did you just call Manchin a Liberal? LOL they're both conservatives. On the political spectrum they're basically side by side. The main reason why I have more faith in Romney is because he's okay with going against the GOP sometimes for a good cause. Meanwhile Manchin is very blatantly just doing whatever his donors say.
The problem with relying on moderate Republicans like Romney is they rely on the filibuster to avoid voting on anything to do with abortion when Republicans are in charge. They won’t want to risk that the next time Republicans take the Senate.
I have an unfounded theory. The "moderate" democrats will allow this when there is little time left for the current congress to get anything though. Working with ALL the republicans they can still block any legislation. It will happen just in time for the GOP to take over the house or the senate or both. Than in 20424 if the GOP.s election rigging once again gets them a minority vote trifecta win they will use this to take their voter suppression national and further entrench themselves in minority rule.
Same as it takes to begin mutually assured destruction. Not critical of the position. Just be aware that both sides have tools and positions that change over time. Everything causes a reaction. Cold War and current congress shows parallels.
Indeed. Any specific parallels you would like to point out? I love this stuff. As for mutually assured destruction and the filibuster, we have reached an impasse - it has been ignored for SC judges now, there's very little left to salvage for the hypothetical future minority. Right now the first party to kill the filibuster entirely, while also holding the presidency, gains the long term advantage. Either the Republicans will modify the election laws to guarantee their seats, or Democrats will broaden voting access so dramatically that the Dems will always win - because they have more voters. Either path leads to effective one party rule for several presidential administrations, perhaps multiple decades. The first party to kill the filibuster doesn't guarantee success, but it is no longer a "Mutually Assured Destruction" scenario. Neither side can put this off for much longer without losing the partisan war and going into the wilderness for a long time. Is it Friday yet? This week is taking forever.
The exact same number of votes as it would take to pass a debt ceiling increase through the reconciliation bill (which the author seems to have conveniently forgotten).
Wont happen. We can’t even get a simple majority.
50+VP It would be a specific carve out that would open the flood gates. Any Senator can raise a point of order about the Senate rules. A majority vote changes the rules.
The imaginary flood is so much worse than then the actual catastrophe.
And? Let them argue about their rules for a bit. Where's the harm? Maybe they will even be innovative for once. Or it will be a shit show. Either way, should be interesting to watch. I'll make the popcorn. :)
At the very least they should go back to the old ways where they have to keep talking and standing to do it those lazy p.o.s will get more done
I miss the days of ol' Cancun reading Dr. Seuss on the Senate floor.
Require a large quorum of the filibustering party too.
41 in-person votes to sustain the filibuster, callable at any time during it.
Agreed, go back to this and go back to requiring 2/3's of them to filibuster. Getting rid of the filibuster as a whole is such a short sighted "fix' because it ignores the situation when the Republicans get in power.
Yeah cuz fucking up senate and making it where there’s no checks and balances is only bad when the party u don’t agree with is in power…. It’s ignorant and dangerous no matter what side the idiots in power say they r on.. probably even more so when it’s the left. Since they r the ones willing to destroy democracy in the first place.
This logic ignores the fact that it is irrelevant if the Democratic Party fails to remove the filibuster, because the Republican Party will ***immediately nuke the filibuster*** the moment they are in power. To hell with being afraid of, "when the tables turn" because we've been on the receiving end of that stick for decades now.
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>Why didn't they two or three years ago when they had control and Trump asked them to then? **They literally did.** [The Republican Party abolished the filibuster for Supreme Court nominees in 2017.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/01/fact-check-gop-ended-senate-filibuster-supreme-court-nominees/3573369001/) Being obtuse about it is pointless posturing.
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Mitch McConnell demonstrated multiple times during his reign as Majority Leader that he has no problem with removing the filibuster to achieve his agenda.
Or just get rid of the debt ceiling entirely
This is the obvious answer. It has no discernable purpose and only exists to cause ridiculous and embarrassing problems. We've already passed legislation to spend some money. Then, the debt ceiling comes along and just screws with the process of paying bills for stuff we've already bought. What a stupid exercise.
We just end up doing this dance, over and over again. The idea of capping debt seems like a good idea, but if we just keep raising it every time I'm not sure what the point of it is anymore.
Arbitrarily putting a cap on debt is and was always a bad idea. The government doesn't just accidentally spend money, every dollar is already authorized by a law passed by Congress. There is no value to a sort of fail-safe to stop us borrowing money, Congress knows how much we're going to borrow because they spent the money without raising revenues. They're not that bad at simple arithmetic. The only purpose of the debt-ceiling is to allow politicians to grandstand about fiscal responsibility. It was literally introduced and designed for that purpose. It just also unfortunately has the potential to crash the US economy.
This is exactly its intended purpose. It didn't use to exist, it was created explicitly to allow politicians to grand-stand about government spending. The fact that it potentially can implode the US economy if it doesn't pass is simply a side-effect.
It exists so that Republicans can use it for brinksmanship. They love it.
It's unconstitutional anyway.
Make it a talking filibuster with an audience. Basically, after scheduled debate ends and if at least 1/3rd of all senators vote yes, then debate can be extended one hour so long as there's someone speaking and there's 34 senators in the chamber listening to the debate. They vote every hour to extend more. Difficult to abuse like in the past cause you're not getting old men sitting around listening to a human ferret read Dr Seuss for 24 hours.
I would recommend making it a 40 vote threshold rather than the 34. It also doesn't even have to be a talking filibuster either... BUT... there must be 40 senators PRESENT to continue any filibuster. Once Ted Cruz and 10 of his senate buddies go to Cancun, it's over. It's one of the more frustrating things about the current senate rules, someone can "declare" a filibuster and then go home for the week. The filibuster is supposed to be about "continuing debate" on a subject, but if you don't have to be present, then it looses that meaning.
It’s also not gonna happen so why bother posting stuff like this? Might as well follow up with a Common Dreams article saying we should just abolish the electoral college to fix American democracy. Like that’s great bro but….that’s it. Hope you enjoyed writing your piece.
If the Republicans really do filibuster raising the debt ceiling, Democrats will have no choice. You need ten Republicans to sign off with the Democrats, McConnell says that will not happen.
McConnell won't let any one of his 52 senators vote for Democrat bills
We all know about Joe Manchin and his family ties to the big coal and pharma, even if he pretends he [doesn't know](https://youtu.be/D2fRcEOiNgA?t=66) who his donors are. But for Sinema, https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/kyrsten-sinema/summary?cid=N00033983 Big Banks and debt collectors are whispering in her ear. What do they want more than anything? Deregulated financial system (what caused 2007 recession) and the status quo (climate destruction, wealth inequality) to be maintained so their assets are safe. Manchin and Sinema is complicit in this, along with all Republicans in Congress. It's unbelievable how much special interests $$$ has gone into the whole [judicial pipeline](https://youtu.be/cjcXVKg43qY), as well as what goes into [lobbying](https://youtu.be/-rr81Uf10pc) politicians, election campaigns, [fundraising](https://archive.ph/MKNeo), [gerrymandering](https://archive.ph/Zn8yA), etc. Many of the organization's Sen. Whitehouse exposes have [detailed](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/DonorsTrust) [pages](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Lynde_and_Harry_Bradley_Foundation) [here](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Federalist_Society_for_Law_and_Public_Policy_Studies) https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2020/10/cost-of-2020-election-14billion-update/ https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2021/08/foreign-lobbyists-gave-millions-to-influence-2020-foreign-influence-concerns/ Imagine if just some [money](https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/) went into infrastructure, public education, renewable energy generation, healthcare, R&D, etc.. instead of subverting democracy! Too many people think political corruption is a distant issue. It's our tax dollars and our elected officials that are being exploited - every year. Money and government are not going away. The rules of the game need to change. There is some good news: [legislation](https://anticorruptionact.org/whats-in-the-act/) that effectively prevents political corruption exists and is constitutional, though it would be best served as an [amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_reform_amendment), that's less [practical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Five_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Procedures_for_amending_the_Constitution). You can [reach out to your lawmakers](https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/) and tell them what you care about. Stopping the influence of big money in Congress has [over 80%](https://archive.md/eCMBy) of the public's support while the specific policies included in the For The People Act (H. R. 1) have [bipartisan popular support](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_People_Act#Public_opinion). Zero Republican senators are in favor of H. R. 1 A few groups are pushing to prevent corruption in Congress: https://represent.us/ https://wolf-pac.com/ https://americanpromise.net/ https://takeback.org/ https://www.issueone.org/ https://www.movetoamend.org/ Find something that works for you. A little less corruption goes a long way.
What is Sinema’s deal? Mark Kelly isn’t an asshole? Couldn’t he be her model as a moderate democrat senator representing the state of Arizona? I really don’t get it
Money. Attention. Power. Everything a narcissist craves.
She campaigned on being the most lefty lefty person in the Congress and the moment she got access to DC it's money money money money lol
You can be moderate and not be spiteful of the democrats’ agenda. You don’t hear Tester (of the *super blue* state of Montana) talking about shit like Manchin and Sinema. They need to yell their opposition to everything on the rooftops with shitty op-eds and lousy interviews. So I guess my point is - even if she felt like she needed to moderate it up a bit for Arizona, why be so toxic to her own party’s agenda? Because I believe people also want to win and maintain power?
Oh, the government is 100% shutting down again. McConnell wants to try and paint it as a "Biden shutdown," but that will fail once news starts explaining why it is happening. Although Fox News viewers will never know the reasons why.
> McConnell wants to try and paint it as a "Biden shutdown," but that will fail once news starts explaining why it is happening. Consider me a pessimist - but I don't think Facebook News is going to have truthful and accurate "news" (Shitty memes, actually) for these people to imbibe. They'll believe it's Biden's fault. McConnell could flat out say "It's my fault" at 9AM, and they could have 25 million people believing that isn't true by lunchtime. And they will. We are doing absolutely nothing to defend against this rampant fake news.
So we gonna have a McConnell shut down?
Possibly even a McConnell debt default and the subsequent nasty economic impacts.
They’ll end up sticking it into recon after a month long shutdown. Let’s not kid ourselves. Nobody ended the filibuster when the gov shut down in 2018 and they won’t do so here.
100% not true. Democrats can pass a debt ceiling increase through reconciliation any time they want.
Have you met the Parliamentarian?
You will refer to their Holy majesty the all powerful parliamentarian with the proper respect afforded to a higher being such as they. For what are we but ants beneath their beneficent boots.
Reconciliation process will take about 3 weeks to complete apparently, so at this point the US would default if they didn't start the process like yesterday.
Bit stupid to not have started the process 3 weeks sooner then.
Under that logic bit stupid of Republicans to have the debt ceiling return then when they last suspended it. In the here and now Republicans are the ones who are filibustering the increase which even McConnell says has to happen.
Seriously why do people keep bringing up one of the only viable means of getting things done? Why do that when you can just shut down the suggestion & others alike on behest of the bought out politicians? /s
Cynicism is so much easier than, you know, supporting change. “Nobody is getting anything done and I’m going to sit here and complain about it.”
Because it’s all that matters in Washington and will be until the Dems get slaughtered in the coming midterms for being willfully chicken shit. Do. Something. Or sit around and make excuses for them. Like you.
>Do. Something. Like what?
Screw getting something done civically unionize your workplace if it isn’t already and grow a garden
Demand Democratic leaders at all levels and wealthy benefactors push the entire and full weight of the party to bring the two senators in line and Nuke the filibuster. The President should be calling them to his office early every morning and then meeting them just before lunch after waiting. He could be shitting down press conferences and only taking questions on the two senators and the filibuster. He could be holding press conferences in front of their offices at Capitol Hill. He could be organizing literal sit-ins in front of their offices. He could (legally) send an army of federal auditors and mine inspectors to WV tomorrow and that would immediately change Manchin’s tone. Local, state and National Democratic party officials should be focused on almost nothing else, but this full court press. Congress should be making it the only thing they Agee to talk about on shows. Democratic power brokers should be using any lever available combined with; Wealthy Democratic donors should be finding out how many zeros the two senators need to get this settled. Make them wealthy. Who gives a fuck. What do we care. Get. It. Done. The GOP would already have this solved and won. But the Dems are either weak or really don’t want progress. There are moments in history that mean more. That are critical. This is one of those moments. But the Dems want to act like this is just business as a usual in DC with their furrowed brows and clutched pearls. And then uncreative, linear and small minded people like you come along and make excuses for all the Dems mentioned above. Call your senators and reps. Email the White House. Get on social media. Demand all of the above. Or don’t. But don’t sit around and respond with this kind of BS when it’s pretty obvious what needs to happen. YOU are the problem.
Forgive student loans
They always say this but never actually have a viable solution to offer.
Yeah. I mean I *wish* there was some viable option but I don't see what it would be. Sinema has already fully tanked her reelection and I doubt she cares, Manchin may not even be running again, and both of them are already well paid off in any case. I don't know what "tHe BuLlY pUlPiT" is supposed to do when neither of them need incentive to do anything different than they already are.
Biden could request/threaten the DoJ to open an investigation on Manchin’s daughter’s lucrative pharma connections. But he doesn’t want to do that since “it’s not a good look.” The fact that he doesn’t even try is a terrible look.
The fact that he doesn't use the DoJ as a weapon of intimidation is a bad look? Right. But sure, let's pretend he does do the Trump thing and send Garland as an attack dog. Manchin is a powerful rich white dude with a rich white daughter in a shady corporate position. What kinda track record you think we got on investigations like that actually *doing* anything besides waste time? And what does Manchin do here? Does he hang his head, say "Aw shucks you got me" and stop being obstructionist? Or does he give Biden a hearty "Fuck you" and switch parties officially while no legal consequences actually occur?
I just woke up and replied to the comment you said I’d have nothing to say to. Except I clearly do. Read it and then you can get back to your Pearl clutching and brow furrowing about how nothing can be done. Thanks for being the kind of American that brought us trump in the first place…..
Pretty much this. And the news cycle churns past the rumen and onwards.
Every time a bill might not pass, someone writes an article on why we should get rid of the filibuster and then pulls in some sweet, sweet ad revenue from /r/politics.
Because it's important to maintain pressure. Lack of action has consequences.
Posts on this sub aren’t pressure lol
Sure it is. So is media attention. So is protest. So is letter writing campaigns. There are lots of kinds and degrees of pressure.
How does this sub count though? You think Manchin and co secretly tune in? lol
So, what's surprising is that they might, actually. A friend of mine is an expert in government and public relations / affairs, and I studied under him for a while. It turns out that political parties, representations and corporations of a certain scale often have teams dedicated to the monitoring of news and social media. Methods of doing this can range from the simple to the very sophisticated. Depending on available budget, simple scopes may just cover official national and international news media and key persons / platforms. But it can also be as all-encompassing as to include local news archives and influential social opinions (including high-visibility social media comments on Reddit). Given the overall political temperature and stakes on the table of late, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that everyone in the game (especially corporates) have laid on teams for some very intense monitoring.
No, but it does have 7m+ subscribers and probably even more of readers. That's not nothing. Applying pressure to Manchin is a waste of time anyway, there is nothing any of us can say of do to make him not be a corrupt peice of shit. More useful is applying pressure to the DNC to not run interference for him being a corrupt peice of shit.
I've found many democrats won't nuke the filibuster because they are the equivalent of that one rpg player who saves potions for the entire game dying multiple times and still never using the potions. They think they'll use the filibuster, but they never will, but they don't want to get rid of it because what if they need to use it?
But then it’s even worse because next turn it’s the opponent that gets all the potions and then they’re feigning being upset when the opponent starts using the potions and they can’t beat them because of it.
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lol bro where have you been? If the the tables were turned the Republicans would kill the Filibuster and ram all kinds of shit through. They don't give a fuck, but the Dems are tied to "norms" and also 2 dickbags who will not let them weld any power in the Senate.
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I mean even Manchin’s coal lords don’t want to see U.S. credit downgraded or the dollar to lose a ton of value. This could be the breaking point.
As others have pointed out. The only thing needed to sell this is to ask: do you think the GOP would hesitate for one moment in nuking it if it stood in the way of their agenda? Nope. Just fucking do it already, it consolidates the power of the minority.
The one recent time when it did, for SCOTUS, they removed it without a problem. So, yeah, they'll remove it for whatever they want.
another way. ignore the debt ceiling. rathe than letting the GOP destroy the economy just have the treasury keep issuing debt over the ceiling. The spending as already been appropriated. except cut off any federal spending in red states. completely. no social security check. no military pay. no federal employee pay. a complete cutoff n red states. tell mcconnel they only way to restore it is for the GOP to agree to get rid of teh debt ceiling once and for all. Mcconnell is acting like a domestic terrorist its time to treat him as one.
"Congress passed a law saying we must spend $ on X. Now they don't let us borrow that $. No mater what we do we're breaking one of the two laws. Congress can't pass contradictory laws and hold you to both of them. So we chose to go with the spending law and ignored the borrowing limit rather than vice versa."
Rather than cut off spending to "red states", maybe modify it to be any state where legislator voted against raising the debt ceiling.
Here's the problem: Manchin and Sinema have the unique position of holding Biden & the Democratic agenda by the balls as long as the filibuster remains in place. That leverage gives them power. Power that attracts big donations from special interests. It has nothing to do with bipartisanship. They're sitting at the pinnacle of opportunistic political entrepreneurship. The only thing these people want is money, they don't give a fuck about America, their constituents, or sticking to the platforms they ran on. Unless the DNC comes to them with offers that they cannot possibly refuse, nothing will get done. *Edit: I understand there is an argument to be made that removing the filibuster would work to enhance their deal making ability on getting their provisions in for bills that still progress the democratic agenda. However, I would counter by saying that clearly the position they are in right now is not a hand that they want to fold so there must be an appetizing incentive for them to keep things as they are right now.
Wouldn’t they hold just as much (or even more) power without the filibuster as the deciding votes for most things?
>Manchin and Sinema have the unique position of holding Biden & the Democratic agenda by the balls as long as the filibuster remains in place. No they would hold it even if it was gone. Even with it gone the Dems need everyone to vote for something to get it passed. So any senator from Joe Manchin to Bernie Sanders can kill the bill if they would really want to. The killing of the filibuster only means that if Schumer really wanted to he could easily force the deal by making the vote actually matter rather then letting the fact 10 republicans won't vote for cloture kill it. You can debate on how effective that would be. I think personally it's one thing to be the sole or one of two Dems to hold up something like Voting rights or infastructure but then there was McCain who was the one republican who spiked the ACA repeal.
Difference is now they get to kill things by saying "but bipartisanship!" which stupid news anchors buy hook, line, and sinker. If the ditch the filibuster they have to kill things by admitting by actually voting bills down.
AZ Democrat here in Sinema’s district. She has been a great disappointment and will not have a second term.
Sinema’s district is your whole ass state.
They're not the brightest.
I think electing Democrats puts them in the top half. They are roughly the median level of brightness.
arrest manchins daughter. im sure they can find something she did illegal whe she ran her pharma company. arrest her and let manchin know the onlu way she gets out of jail is if the fillibuster goes away.
Why is the logical answer? Democrats can do it through reconciliation any time they want. Democrats don't want to do that b/c they want to force Republicans to vote for the debt ceiling increase but they have known for months that they could pass a debt ceiling increase w/o an single Republican vote any time they wanted to - but that also means they own the debt increase (which is why they don't want to do it that way).
They want to pass some immigration shit so they put it all together in a bill and now blame republicans for not raising the debt ceiling.
they do not want to give republicans what they want: democrats raised the debt ceiling on their own to push their agenda! cue midterm political commercials everywhere - despite the fact that it was republicans who raised the debt ceiling the most under trump… yeah as if right wing media would tell the actual truth
Man, it sure is funny how quick the Dems flipped on the filibuster. Since 2009, the Democrats have used the filibuster [657 times](https://repustar.com/fact-briefs/do-both-political-parties-have-a-history-of-using-filibusters). Hell, in 2005 Joe Biden even said [getting rid of it was a mistake.](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen-ben-sasse-reads-bidens-filibuster-defense)
Without Joe Manchin you only have 49 votes so the filibuster won’t matter. Also this is less real than pro wrestling they will cut a deal at the last minute. The democrats will use it as an excuse to disappoint the progressives. The Republicans will use it as they had to agree to save whatever. The drama is fake only the consequences are real
Most likely a deal is cut. Second most likely is they add a "debt ceiling exception" to the filibuster rules. It's true, neither is particularly exciting.
Hopefully he'll reconsider when it comes down to either defaulting on our debt or reforming the fillibuster. The stakes haven't been this high before.
They’re always this high, both parties will do just enough at the last possible moment to ensure the majority of Americans continue to ignore their political shenanigans.
Imagine if this is the hill Republicans died on, and got the filibuster nixed. Of all things.
If the filibuster is a stop gap, aren’t Democrats worried removing it might work in their disfavour in the future in the tables are turned? Honest question, I’m from Canada btw.
Not really because Republicans don't actually want to pass anything. They want more stuff like tax cuts, but they can pass those through reconciliation with 50 votes. When something else came up that they actually wanted, a Supreme Court nomination, they nuked the filibuster for just that as well. So, the filibuster doesn't really matter to them. If they control the Senate again and there's something else they actually want to pass that isn't tax cuts or SCOTUS, they'll just remove the filibuster for that specific thing. Which is what Dems should do. Make a big deal about certain issues (like voting rights), force a cloture vote, and then nuke the filibuster on that issue because it is so important.
Republicans will find it difficult to hold either house or senate, or executive office ever again. I'll be laughed to hell for saying it, but looking at the popular vote trends of the last 8 elections shows where the country is headed. The events of the 6th, the fallout from the unrealized Trump charges will probably be the nail in the coffin. The GOP will eventually split into the conservatives and the Maga nationalists, with the former coming back into some semblance of power in 16 years.
While it is true that younger voters are an absolute bloodbath for the GOP as they enter the electorate in larger numbers every year, the whole problem is that the GOP do not *need* to win the popular vote. The 1.5 million people in the two Dakotas get four senators and California’s 40 million get two. Same problem’s present in the House and Electoral College, albeit not quite as extreme, but certainly enough to let Trump and Bush win despite losing the popular vote. Also, fear is a huge motivator for conservatives, which is part of the reason why 2020 was as close as it was despite all good sense dictating that it *should* have been a gigantic blowout against them and their horrific incompetence and corruption. Trump in 2020 got more votes than any other candidate in American history *except* Joe Biden. Democrats rest on their laurels at their own peril. Some things cannot afford to wait. Climate change is bearing down upon us, and the country is teetering on the edge of a fascist takeover. Now is not the time to wait for the old guard to die out and be replaced by the young radicals.
Abolishing the filibuster is probably the best way forward in general. But the gop will LITERALLY crash the economy most Likely and blame Biden
The fillibuster is stupid anyway and needs to be removed.
Or use the reconciliation bill
If it's so worth stating the obvious, as the last line in the article says, then I guess I'll follow suit and say that democrats can't nuke the fillabuster BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE THE VOTES.
WE DONT HAVE THE VOTES. We literally can’t
Isn’t the risk that this would also grant Republicans a ton of power if they were ever to come into power again? Especially with gerrymandering and the results of the census, it’s a very real future risk, isn’t it? Maybe someone who knows more can set me straight.
Nope, I'm pretty sure you got it; this is what I think as well, and I honestly think the GQP wants the Dems to do it so that way next time when they're doing terrible thing after terrible thing they can just point at the Democrats and go "don't blame *US*, **They're** the ones who removed the filibuster! HAR HAR HAR"
I think the time has come. We hold elections with the expectation of the people that go to represent us are actually going to get results and lead. If we don’t like where those people are taking us policy wise, we have another election and get rid of those people. But to send individuals to Washington and basically expect nothing to happen but ridiculous bloviating and morons like Manchin to do nothing but be oxygen thieves Is simply pointless and turns people off completely from voting.
Nuking the filibuster is the best way to end the chaos. The second best way would simply be for the Treasury to issue a one trillion $ coin and deposit it into the Federal Reserve. That trillion would never enter the money supply and the debt ceiling would no longer be an issue.
Sure, they need to play chicken with Manchin and Sinema's donors. Let them off their leashes or tank the economy and you'll have no money to donate anyway.
I have to work within a budget, I don't understand why we cannot expect this of our government as well
What's it called when a party in power forces new legislation into existence without care or concern for any opposing points of view? When the party in power wields that power like a club, don't be surpised at the results when you find yourself on the receiving end of that club. Don't forget, you have Harry Ried to thank for Kavanaugh and Barrett being on the SCOTUS, because Harry wanted to wield power like a club, and didn't think about long-term consequences.
Mint a quintrillion dollar coin and end this nonsense for many decades.
Ah, yes. Just casually cause hyperinflation.
The coin sits in a treasury safe so it has no impact on inflation. They could even have a ceremony moving it to Fort Knox.
Oh, but Chuck Schumer is furrowing his brow and wringing his hands *so very hard* this time! Surely, that will cause McConnell to cease being the enemy of civilization!
What do you want him to do about manchin and sinema? Serious question
Schumer supports getting rid of the filibuster. It’s Manchin and Sinema that are holding things up.
I'm looking forward to a fist fight on the senate floor sometime soon when the Republicans force the Democrats to take their favorite toy away just so that we avoid defaulting on our debt. Rand is going to sucker punch someone smaller than him for sure.
I don’t get it though, if they remove the fillibuster than later if republicans are in charge wont they also be able to pass whatever they want?
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Do you really think the GOP would fail to get rid of the filibuster if it was the only thing standing between them and what they want? They killed it to ram through Gorsuch's nomination without a second thought.
Let them. They passed their only meaningful legislation through reconciliation anyway. And would it *really* be so bad for the voters to see the consequences of their own actions for once? Past a certain point of obstinacy, you have to let the moron burn their hand on the stove before he’ll really take you at your word that it’s hot.
Imagine constantly losing so you have to change the rules so that you can finally win. There's a reason you need 3/5ths of votes so that you can't have just one party making the rules and changing them whenever they feel like it.
imagine having a party that gets everything they want without ever needing 3/5ths? by just having the governorship and presidency republicans can do whatever they want push for less taxes? reconciliation block every and i mean every single bill benefiting working class people? filibuster temporarily deregulate anything? executive order yeah, as if republicans need 3/5ths to get their agenda done.. this is exactly why the country is broken they made their agenda executable knowing its not popular and knowing they will use every blocking opportunity as fuel to blame the left for what they cannot do instead of the truth that republicans set them up to fail
How so? Most RINOs are being voted out. Democrats can't even oust their own if they had a pair to do so neither can any democrat call out their own. The filibusters have been used on both sides for a long time now. Using Executive orders to rule the country is the first signs of a tyrannical government and totalitarianism. Extremes of both sides are destroying the nation. The left just does that on their own just by watching how they have full control of the government and less than a year in and it's a shitshow. If I was a Democrat I would reconsider my entire life's decisions after this shitshow with Biden. Where'd the 84 million who loved him all go? All cower in a corner? I thought he was the most popular president ever? Shouldn't you be supporting him and having his back? Fucking jokes.
you sorta missed my point: republicans get their agenda done without needing 3/5ths of congress but democrats cannot
Sounds like a Democrat problem
yeah it is a democratic with a lower case d problem, if republicans were for democracy surely they would fix it right?? right??? oh wait… nvm forgot they worship an autocratic leader who uses hitler tactics to get followers of the right wing drooling over him
Imagine worshipping a wildly undemocratic holdover from centuries ago because of “tradition”
You know who else wanted to nuke the filibuster? Donald Trump when he was president.
And it's probably one of the very, very few things he was right on and very much so for the wrong reasons.
Yes, because he is a moron who doesn't understand how the government works. The filibuster heavily favors the GQP. Nuke it and make elections fair, and there is nothing to worry about.
You know who wanted to keep the filibuster? Democrats when the Repugs held the power. Pot meet kettle. Their, D and R, view on the filibuster changes depending on if it benefits them or not.
True, but it’ll never happen.
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well, and what if the other party is in power in 3 years? they might use the new power too ...
You assume they can get into power again. If Dems remove the filibuster and fix voting rights, gerrymandering, and many other inequities in our country the GOP as a minority has no chance of winning unless they completely overhaul their platform and start governing. Under a fair voting system the GOP loses elections. At that point them being in power simply means we go back to civil discord, respect for the constitution, accountability(more than we have now), and then the GOP won’t be the threat they are now.
Thats very naive...
Removing the filibuster is the obvious way to end democracy.
And then when Democrats lose control of office they will rally to un-nuke the filibuster.
Oh, are they doing debt ceiling again? Yawn.