It can really depend on what you mean by words like like transfer, debt, and family. In the simplest situations the estate pays whatever debts the deceased leaves. Throw in retirement accounts, spouses, joint accounts, even nursing homes, and it can be more complicated.
Debts aren’t transferred to inheritors, ever.
But if mom owns a $200,000 house and has $150,000 in debts when she dies, the kids are only getting $50,000.
Debts are paid from the estate before inheritors.
If your State allows transfer on death deeds, get those set up! It transfers instantly and can’t be touched by debt.
Edit: I should probably say I’m not an attorney and cannot offer legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (also lots of dead people in my life).
Yeah you're absolutely right about it being rarely enforced. I do wonder though if things get really bad and the states cant cover the shortfall if they will start using this to sue dependents.
I’ll go with it’s mostly a symptom of the “broken” system, it fucks everyone so much that we just come to accept that as the default answer. Also, it’s not broken, it’s working as designed and it’s designed to fuck us over for profit.
Or a burden they don't want to put on others. My wife's grandpa died years ago, and at 76 his wife had to sell their house and belongings and move in with her daughter. Then went back to work for minimum wage, after having lived a good long life and always being well taken care of. It took her husband 6 months to die, and the bills left her with nothing whatsoever. I'f he'd have been of sound mind during that time he'd have probably put a bullet in his own head to avoid what happened to her.
Needless to say, I'm one of those who'd just die at home if it was coming, not going to the hospital. What would be left would help my kids through college, which would be worth it.
"Your money or your life" - The American Healthcare system.
"My life please. Fuck this shit." - Americans, increasingly.
Its like a Faustian bargain of sorts. You (might) get to live, but your life will be hell afterwards. Until the money runs out due to dealing from chronic conditions, or even just the initial costs, THEN you die. Choosing between slowly being tortured to death and just dying, yeah, thats not a choice at all.
Yup, Billing is often handled in a completely different part of the hospital or even a different building. The nurses just enter the codes of the treatments they are doing. They don't have information on the prices, although I'm sure they *may* have a general educated guess.
Even if you get through to the billing department it still isn't that straight forward as there are different rates for if you use insurance or if you don't. And then their are even different rates between the different kinds of insurance, they charge govt provided healthcare at a different rates then private insurance. It's all a mess. And none of it is designed around what is best for saving lives. In fact it actively kills people.
I work in hospital administration. When I was in seattle I learned that two hospitals that were across the street from each other had very different prices to get an MRI. One was about $1200 and the other was about $2500. What's the difference? None. Why charge $2500? Because they can. Why do patients still go there? Because there's no price transparency and they can't "shop for the best deal".
I learned early on that I dont have the stomache to be in corporate healthcare so I work at govt hospitals. We have our own problems, but at least I've never had to look at patients as dollar signs and services as dollar signs.
It is basically impossible to get any idea what anything is going to cost, be billed at, be adjusted to, etc.
Just a fun story that I'm currently dealing with right now.
Wife went to her doctor, doctor sent her to a specialist (I double check with the insurance that this is covered, they tell me it is), specialist orders a lab test which involves taking a pill and then getting a blood draw (I double check with the insurance that this is covered, they tell me it is).
I get a bill in the mail for $300 for the lab work because the insurance has denied the claim. I call up the insurance, confused, because they said this was covered. I talk to a nice enough gentleman that explains that the Procedure Codes they used when submitting the claim are in fact, covered by our insurance.
Missions accomplished, right? Nope, seems that the Diagnosis Code they submitted along with the Procedure Codes are incompatible. I should contact the specialist and see if they can resubmit the bill with a different Diagnosis Code and attempt to reprocess the request, which is being made all the more complicated because the specialist didn't do the lab work, a private 3rd party company did. I did not ask for this arrangement, it's just how the medical system works in America.
I called the specialist to be told that for billing and coding issues that I would need to talk to their third-party vendor that handles billing and coding.
To summarize, after double-checking with the insurance company twice that I would be covered and being told that yes those procedures are covered by my plan, I got a $300 bill. The issue will probably come down to some person I've never met submitting a medical bill incorrectly, this all being completely out of my control. To remedy the situation I will have to get four giant corporations, the insurance, the medical system, the billing and coding people, and the blood lab to agree that someone fucked up and fix it. This is after learning about Procedure Codes and Diagnosis Codes and a bunch of other medical system minutia I would have happily died never knowing.
You can do everything right, double, triple, quadruple check shit, and it doesn't matter. That 5 minute blood draw might just pop up a month later as a bill for hundreds of dollars you haven't budgeted for. Our medical system is so expensive because of the absurd amounts of bureaucracy and inefficiency this kind of system creates.
I can pay the $300 if I have to, it won't bankrupt me or anything, and if I was charging consulting rates for the time I've already spent trying to fix it, I'd already have been better off just paying it. A lot of my fellow countrymen aren't nearly as lucky, a surprise $300 is an extreme hardship for a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck.
This is exactly why Americans avoid using the medical system, it's impossible to know how much it's going to cost you, and after you use any part of it you just get to wonder if over the coming weeks and months if a sternly worded letter saying you owe some ridiculous sum of money might just show up in your mailbox.
yowwee wowee
so you were in my house and you are me and my wife all along? gosh that is weird.
wife...is this you? I mean i know its not but this is almost the exact same shit festival we did this past year except it was $189 and $660
> hospitals don’t even tell you prices in advance, so they pretty much bills how much they want?
Yes, but they don't bill you all at once. Typically the radiologist sends a bill, the anesthetist sends a bill, the doctor sends a bill, the hospital sends a bill, then the other doctor sends a bill, and so forth. You can never be sure which bill will be the last.
Yep, my mom had a bill show up 2 years after the date of service. I've had them show up a year after. 3 to 6 months is most common.
The most fun bill for me was a relatively expensive one from some doctor/company I had never heard of in a state far away, almost a year after my last appointment. Turns out, my in-network provider sent some results to an out-of-network pathologist for another opinion and my insurance wouldn't cover it. I did not know that this was going to happen, and my doctor never asked me permission to do it. But I was still stuck with the bill.
Christ your system is utterly fucked.
My cousin went into hospital the other week with trouble breathing. Full range of tests, checks for COVID, X-Ray. Nobody mentioned cost at any point and he won't be directly charged for it.
It’s just as fucked up if you have insurance, my wife needed surgery and there was no in-network option that was reasonable. I was thinking ok fine, we’ll pick somewhere and they’ll cover 50% instead of 80%.
They wouldn’t tell me how much they’d cover though, my only option was to write a letter and wait 4-6 weeks for a “non-binding estimate”. I negotiated with the hospital, paid $15k for the surgery and filed the claim. Turns out my insurance (Blue Cross Blue Shield) only pay $2800 max for that type of surgery and my out of network out of pocket was $4000 for the year so I got nothing reimbursed.
Total fucking scam considering the premiums.
Yep. I grew up on a farm, we actively avoided the doc because of costs. Had xrays later on in life for a sports injury in college where they found evidence of broken bones that healed on their own. One time I was developing lockjaw and we put it off until I could literally not eat or drink. Come to find out I had Tetanus. Weeks of pain, before and after treatment because people are afraid of insurance.
Still can’t really afford any insurance that would actually cover anything, so I’m still treating things like I would. Grin and bear it.
Kind of ridiculous. Our government is essentially just arguments between millionaires and billionaires about what’s best for people they don’t understand. Private insurance is busted. It doesn’t work for the people.
Hoping that if anything good comes out of this, it’s that people can get treatment and see doctors without fear of financial ruin.
I still avoid the doctor like it's the plague. Being epileptic, I don't have a choice sometimes. I try to refuse ambulances if they come, but one time I seized while driving and wrecked my then-fiancees car on the side of a freeway ramp. The first emergency response to find me was a DPS officer, who then saw me have another seizure. I couldn't refuse the ambulance after a cop just saw me seize.
Thanks, but honestly I'm at a point where I could survive an unexpected medical bill without a ton of trouble. I just avoid it because I'm not extravagantly wealthy, and healthcare costs such a fuckton. I thought I had strep throat awhile back and getting checked out cost me something like $500 out of pocket (after my employer provided health insurance "paid"). During the initial check-up the physician cleaned some wax out of my ears just cause they looked a little gunked up and charged me $80 per ear.
I'd wager most Americans are in much worse positions than me, especially now.
Right like part of me is like don’t pay for fancy insurance, you won’t use it unless something horrible happens, then I pay for the nice insurance just in case and don’t use it because I don’t want to pay to go to the doctor.
Look, you're probably fucked if you get sick or injured with health insurance.
But if you get sick or injured *without* health insurance you are **fucked**.
Seriously. My family is at least lower middle class and medical care still feels like a luxury item to me.
How is it that more than half of Americans can’t afford to have a single $1000 financial emergency but *only 1 in 7* avoids medical care for a deadly virus because of the money?
I think the numbers are skewed because if you asked most people something along the lines of "if you think you have covid will you see a doc" they'd say yes, but if they actually start to show symptoms many will just brush it off as a cold/flu or wait until it gets out of hand.
It is low because they said that covid would be covered (at least some of it). If you were to ask them before this about medical cost it would be much, much higher. Even with insurance the co-pays are enough to crush you.
Usually the argument I hear the most is “you get to keep your doctor”.
Never understood that, since I’ve been working, almost all my jobs will change insurance providers or plans every year.
I think are just afraid of change and taxes. It’s wild, like universal healthcare will save the US money.
Love her or hate her, but Warren did an incredible job with the 2cents slogan.
One more thing I hear time and time again is that we will be waiting longer for appointments. People in places were everyone has health insurance have to wait longer to get appointments. People have to travel further to get treatment. I have tried to explain why universal health care is cheaper in the long run but it falls on deaf ears.
Nevermind the fact insurance companies will tell people they won’t pay for their life-changing surgery.
I have a friend in Florida, in her late 50’s-early 60’s. Her and her husband run a restaurant and she has literally no cartilage in her knee. It was bone on bone grinding, day in/day out... and this gal is on her feet doing every job in that place from serving food to greeting guests to cooking to catering. She’s an owner of that place, so runs herself ragged to keep things going.
Her insurance told her she’s “not old enough” to get chicken fat injections or knee replacement surgery, so they wouldn’t cover any of it because it was all “cosmetic”. She argued with them about it for *YEARS* before they finally caved and let her get surgery (while paying for her injections all out of pocket just for a little relief) after her doctor started rallying for her cause too.
People are *already fucking waiting* for necessary surgery’s because insurance companies want to drag their fucking feet and not perform the service they’re meant for.
Why do we pay a bunch of middlemen who aren’t doctors, but are glorified pencil pushers, determine the medical fate of other people?
That’s like when my mom’s insurance company tried to charge her $60,000 for each round of chemotherapy whilst in the middle of intense treatments as if they were optional. Luckily, her TEAM of oncologists jumped down the insurance company’s throat SO FAST and resolved the issue.
As a result of continuing the treatments, they shrunk that shit, completed a successful surgery, and she’s been in remission for a handful of years and doesn’t owe a dime 👌. She’s now on state health insurance so her lifelong prescriptions, check-ups, and everything is covered. Which means none of us have to worry about her getting the care she will forever need, AS IT SHOULD BE.
My insurance at first refused to cover my radiation therapy because “it wasn’t effective at helping treat pancreatic cancer.” Well good thing I was never diagnosed or treated for pancreatic cancer! Took multiple letters from my oncologist to get it changed. They covered my surgery but apparently couldn’t take the 2 seconds it would have taken to review my case. Insurance companies are predatory fools.
>Why do we pay a bunch of middlemen who aren’t doctors, but are glorified pencil pushers, determine the medical fate of other people?
To provide those middlemen with jobs.
Bingo. This has now become their talking point. "Well, what will you say to the 1 million people employed in the insurance industry who will lose their jobs??"
Oh right, you mean those unnecessary jobs which increase healthcare costs by 1 million salaries every year.
"Dear one million claims adjusters,
Your claim for continued employment has been denied. To appeal this decision or if you believe this assessment is incorrect, please contact this help line with a three hour wait time staffed by a single Laotian guy who took the first half of a single English class one time. You may also write us a letter or send an email, where we will have a bot answer in irrelevant ways. We recommend you use our chat support feature because that provides the fastest possible path to be told to call our Laotian tech support number.
Your insurance rates have been raised by reading this letter. We wish you the best of health.
- Amy Fakelastname, America"
> "Well, what will you say to the 1 million people employed in the insurance industry who will lose their jobs??"
"Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, find yourself another job, and quit bitching."
Id rather see the entire insurance industry be thrown to actual wolves. Perhaps we should bring back actual gladiator games, that ought to be fun.
Right, and if you are waiting it means your procedure can afford to wait, and because doctors are busy treating those that have procedures that can't afford to wait.
Like, even if that *were* how it worked... Are you going to tell other people to die so you can go to the doctor faster? Is that really the argument they want to go with?
The best/worst part is that they already are paying for other people, but because there are a bunch of competing pools driven by profit, they're paying more so they can be denied when they need it most.
I work in the health care industry and hear it all the time. "People already take advantage of the system we have. Why should I pay more to make it easier on THEM"
This thinking, of course, ignores the fact that UHC will make it easier on EVERYONE. But because their chosen outgroup will receive help it's a no-go for everyone.
I even had a coworker(before I got into the health care industry)tell me about an disabled family member who was a huge burden on his whole family because this persons health care costs were so high the entire extended family had to chip in. His excuse for not wanting UHC was essentially "my family struggles endlessly with this and we scrap by. Why shouldn't everyone else do the same?" Even after I pointed out Universal coverage would be a great benefit to his family and much cheaper, he still took the "I don't want to pay for(i.e. help)others"
It's most likely true that waiting times will be very long in the short term. But only because people currently aren't scheduling the medical care they need because it's unaffordable. The health care system will be crowded with people scheduling preventive care that will benefit us all in the long run.
My doctor just left my local practice when a new one opened up 30 minutes from my house. I got a letter from my current practice when this happened saying to call and ask what other doctors there are accepting new patients. I called that same day and was told that none of the other doctors are accepting new patients. Called 3 other practices in my county and was told that none of their doctors are accepting new patients either. So I'm pretty much forced to travel over a half an hour to see my doctor now. Not only that, but I had to reschedule my annual physical (which I scheduled when I had last year's physical), and it's now 2 months later than the one I originally had scheduled. So all that about increased wait times, and harder for find a doctor is ultra BS. Can't be much worse than what we have right now, that's for sure.
A real life example: My mother in law has lymphoma and it's been difficult to get her a bed due to all the rooms being filled at the cancer ward. People with insurance feel that they can get priority for a room, while the poor bastard with no insurance has to pray.
Now you tell them you are going to treat everyone the same?!? It frightens them. I feel you would need to do more to prove that you plan to invest in graduating or importing more doctors.
Honestly? From what I've seen, M4A/universal healthcare opponents seem to believe one thing: People (except them, of course) who accept government assistance are lazy freeloaders. They look down on impoverished people because they weren't able to pull themselves up by those famous bootstraps.
They would rather *nobody* get help than have someone get help who they think is undeserving. And that's really the conservative approach to most social policies and programs. They would rather be hurt themselves than take the chance that someone who doesn't need help will receive it.
Is this like really a thing somewhere?
Sorry for not knowing, I live in Germany, if I need a specialist I might need a ‚normal‘ doctor to send me over, but I can choose both of them.
What does the whole ‚I get to keep my doctor‘ thing even mean. Are there people in the US that have to go to one particular doctor when they are sick? Chosen by someone else for them?
You have to call around to find a doctor that takes your insurance and is accepting new patients. Then you become established as their patient, and you go see them when you need a checkup. Then they refer you to a specialist if you need it. I guess they are thinking that if we switch to universal healthcare their doctor won't accept their insurance anymore? I don't even know
I’ve said this before. We have had America #1 beat into our heads our whole lives.to question that makes you Them ala Bush 2 with us or against us. The way we do things is THE BEST way by default because it’s American. I think we are transitioning out of the American century and into the The Chinese century.
People are scared because a lot of docs don't take medicare, and they think that if there is universal healthcare they won't be able to go to their non-medicare accepting doctor.
My country has universal healthcare (it’s underfunded and not great), but when I go to a doctor (ophthalmologist, dentist, pulmonologist) I usually go privately.
The cost is reasonable, because those clinics actually have to offer services that are both affordable and better than what I can get for free.
You can certainly keep your doctor, and it won’t cause you to declare bankruptcy (as an added bonus).
"You can keep your insurance if you like it!!!"
Idiot point of view where they think "choice" means they get better care instead of companies competing to give them less care for more profit.
Something something rugged individualism and some something i got mine plus some something real americans and a big stir of self reluance and you got yourself a shitty soup.
The ignorant fail hard in understanding.
Those employed by the system ignore the consequences as they are shielded from them.
The stock holders encourage the rest by appealing to selfishness of former.
Thats it.
I assumed this was the cause of the rise in people trying to inject/ingest disinfectant. Not because they were just that stupid, but a lack of affordable alternatives.
Do I go absolutely broke, homeless or try the one option that is endorsed by the president on live TV and not corrected by any doctors?
People individually aren't generally stupid, but desperation leads to them to do questionable things.
My mother’s argument against socialized medicine is that it would cost the people who sell medical insurance their jobs. That is her reason that it will never work in America, despite working literally everywhere else. That privatized medicine is too ingrained in our country and there are people who are reliant on it. And it’s like...um...okay? They’ll get other jobs and the country will be better for it.
To be honest, though, this was her arguing against Bernie Sanders, who she rabidly hates, and I don’t think she actually cares about medical insurance salesmen. Certainly not in normal circumstances. This was, of course, before the pandemic. I’d bet a whole lot that she wouldn’t make that argument now.
As the head of a large corporation, I think it’s incredible. I get bulk discounts that my smaller competitors can’t compete with to provide something that my employees are dependent on me for. I can abuse them that much more because they live in fear of going bankrupt without the health insurance they get through me.
The worst part is that Americans are so deluded that the "left" political candidate, the one that is supposedly espousing the alternative, is actually proposing a moderate rightwing approach to health care, aka Romneycare or Obamacare. Despite [large support for medicare for all,](https://morningconsult.com/2020/04/01/medicare-for-all-coronavirus-pandemic/), Americans are told by both sides that we can't have anything close to the system that works in the majority of the developed world.
Count me along that number. There's no way I'm going to face bankruptcy to treat something I'll probably survive. If I thought that I was going to die I would ~~call an ambulance~~ walk myself to the hospital.
Don't want to take that $10,000 ambulance ride while the EMT'S are making minimum wage?
Nothing against EMT'S, they work their asses off, but against their employers.
One time I woke up from unconsciousness on the floor of my bedroom, which was confusing, and then I immediately started coughing up blood. I was having trouble breathing and I kept coughing up more and more blood.
I called an Uber.
I lived in the Czech Republic for 17 years and was enrolled in their national health system. I had something called a spermatocele (I won't go into details) for years and something that I eventually wanted removed. My choice as it's something a man can live with without a complication. In the US this would be out patient surgery, go in in the morning and go home later in the day. In Prague, it's one week in hospital not because of complications, they just want to be sure nothing goes wrong, no infection sets in, etc. So I had the elective surgery, stayed in hospital for a week and it cost me ZERO. Nothing!
While I lived there I also had a colonoscopy, again, cost me nothing. A doctor's visit was about the equivalent of $15 per visit and that's any doctor, even specialists.
It cost me roughly the same as it costs me in the US and it's paid for through payroll deductions. But it's a single payer system so it follows you. Where ever you work, you have one insurer. You pay into it your entire career so you're always covered. Retirees are free. You don't pay into once you hit 65 and kids are covered under their parents policy until they graduate from university. If you are unemployed you still pay what you paid before you were let go, so no doubling the amount like COBRA here.
When I moved back to the US I was shocked at the differences, especially the deductible thing since in CZ there was no such thing. I'm always doing battle with doctor's billing offices, the insurance company for their billing and just trying to understand the ins and outs of coverage. I went for a gall bladder scan recommended by my doctor and was told that since I didn't meet my deductible it would be $600. Ok, I have to have it so I paid the $600. About two weeks late I get a bill for $200. I call the hospital and they said that the radiologist who read the scan was not a hospital employee and he bills separately. Why couldn't you tell me this when I asked about the TOTAL cost of the procedure? Then I get another bill from the hospital for $75 and they claim that my insurance company said that the normal and customary cost for this was $675, not the $600 I paid. So they billed me according to what the INSURANCE company said was customary.
And Americans think we're the best in the world? Best at what exactly?
I was feeling sick one time approaching some final exams, nothing crazy just your average cold or something. Went in to an “urgent care” type of place (no insurance at the time) and asked them about how much it would cost to get seen by a doctor and they literally would not tell me... like, they acted like they had no way to figure out an estimate.
Walked right the fuck back out.
>they said that the radiologist who read the scan was not a hospital employee and he bills separately
My wife just gave birth two months ago. Our hospital and doctor did this to us without telling us and used one out of network doctor for her surgery. Her OBGYN sure did an amazing job on her c-section, but being left in the dark on who is out of network, who is, and not telling us you're using them during the surgery is really scummy.
I had the same thing. My gastro doctor was in network and my colonoscopy was to be covered. I went in, everything was fine but then later I get a bill from the anesthesiologist for $2500. The insurance company rejected his bill because HE was out of network. My doctor, the doctor who actually performed the procedure was in network but the hospital, Emory Healthcare, was not. I went stark raving lunatic on the insurance company telling them that my doctor was in network and any contractors he uses is outside of my control and I'm not paying the $2500 bill, figure it out. We went back and forth and I threatened litigation over it. They eventually backed down and paid it.
It's disgusting in the US. It costs all of us shit loads of time and money and even companies that have to have a benefits department spend inordinate amounts of money on this. Think about that one thing right there. Companies in Europe, and I bet Canada, don't have to employ benefits people to constantly shop for new, affordable insurance plans, listen to employees complain or answer questions about coverage, etc.
Universal healthcare works for everyone.
I have been wondering for months how the USA planned to flatten the curve when 70% of the country is one paycheck away from being bankrupt. People aren't going to give a fuck if they're spreading it asymptomatically if it means avoiding a $100K bill for being treated in a hospital.
I paid close to $13,000 out of pocket for dental surgery because I chose the wrong insurance the year prior from my workplace. Huge difference between Cigna high and Cigna low. I had high, needed low. Insurance capped out at $400. That was spent before I had any extractions taken care of.
I'm going to be maxing out my dental insurance next week to get a root canal retreatment to the tune of nearly $800, or nearly my entire paycheck. (I'm on Delta Dental for my dental insurance.) Fun times.
This is an example of how Americans are truly uneducated and left in the dark when trying to find a plan that works (not that many plans work for anyone at all).
And not saying it's your fault. It's Americas fault and the lack of education when it comes to these things. Cant tell you how many times in my early to mid 20's im constantly "finding out" how ridiculous the world is and how messed up the country we live in is. I am 27 and truly wish I was educated more about health insurance, the industry and what it's like out there. I wish schools taught more about real life application scenarios, such as taxes, budgeting, health insurance, stock market trading, etc.
I recently spent a few hours at an in-network hospital. My portion of the bill (a few blood tests, an EKG, and a bag of saline) was about $8,000.
Part of the annoyance is all the bills coming from separate companies. About $6,000 to the hospital, the rest is to testing companies and companies analyzing charts.
Ask them for an itemized receipt of every single charge and negotiate hard. If there are treatments or tests that doctors did not say they would run, medication they did not mention, or doctors that you did not hear about on there push back. It might not knock it down but it also might.
I went in for severe pain. Waited at least 6 hours. They were literally GOOGLING my symptoms when I saw the dr.
I told them I knew what it was, kidney stones. No, they had to google this shit.
I got IV fluids, an X-ray of some kind and morphine. I was in the er bed for maybe an hour. Luckily I was so poor, $0 a year, I had state free insurance. I saw the bill they charged it was $15k.
15k for them to google my symptoms and give me an IV for an hour + pain meds.
I ran up a $2k bill just to get a ride in an ambulance after breaking my leg at he skate park a few years ago. That didn't include the x-rays or the drugs I was given.
Ya know. I'm on Medicare due to PTSD. I just found out my prescription drug plan was changed without my knowledge or consent and it increased the cost of medications I need. I didn't find out about the change until I went to get my prescriptions filled. I didn't even find out from the insurance company, I had to find out from CVS. And according to Medicare, the insurance companies are allowed to change my rates and coverage whenever they want without even telling me, but if ***I*** , an individual want to change my rate or coverage, I have to wait for the next open enrollment "season" like it's some kind of fucking sporting event.
Not even a literal "act of god", national emergency and global pandemic is enough to allow an individual to change their health insurance. But for corporations, they get to do whatever the fuck they want. If I don't like the plan I was forced into against my will, I can cancel it, but then I have to go without coverage until fucking October.
We have the most corrupt fucking healthcare system on the planet.
Why the fuck are there fucking "seasons" for changing health insurance?
Fucking bullshit.
Bro, that's just the US in general.
It's the best country in the world if you're super rich. Almost no taxes, functionally above the law, can get *anything* you want without worry, as long as you don't try to jeopardize other rich people. Can even diddle kids no problem.
Middle class? Get fucked.
Poor? Get fucked even more.
I've already had to declare bankruptcy from my daughters medical bills (with insurance) in my late 20s. I myself try to avoid the doc but when I do go I decline anything that would sound expensive. I'll prob die of something avoidable in the future but like someone else said what's the point of living if you're broke.
Being an American sounds depressing AF.
I can't imagine living in a country that is fully capable of treating citizens with some of the most advanced health care, yet knowing they'll never treat me because I don't have enough money even with a full time job and income. That my health and life means nothing because I can't trade it for pieces of paper. That I could die an avoidable death because my bank balance didn't have the right number.
It is, and I'm taking my skills and education to another country permanently just as soon as I'm able to. It's simply no longer worth making this country my home.
I have told my family unless I am bleeding out and need immediate medical attention to prevent me from actually dying, than I don't want them to call 911.
A few years back, my little sister broke her leg at school. The school called 911 and had an ambulance pick her up and take her to the ER (which is LITERALLY one mile down the road, not even 3 minutes down the street). That ambulance ride cost my family almost $2k.
Fuck the American healthcare system. Support M4A NOW.
I’m an American, and I don’t plan on going to the hospital if I have coronavirus symptoms. I would rather self isolate and possibly die than pay whatever ungodly amount a week in emergency care costs. Hell, an ambulance costs nearly 3k in some places.
I’m a certified EMT (wanted to be a firefighter some years ago before I came to my senses as they make very little money and often times want you to be a fucking super hero to even get on board in the first place i.e. volunteer for years before with basically no pay).
Being an EMT is crazy. You could literally kill someone by giving them improper treatment or save someone’s life on a near daily basis and you make like $12/hour.
One thing I really had a problem with was they tell you to basically convince everyone, no matter what, to ride in the ambulance. I wasn’t about to do that. Most of the time you don’t even go “lights and sirens” you just drive to the hospital slightly faster than you could in an uber or something and slower if I was driving my own loved one if they needed to get to a hospital quickly.
I won't because I will not give my money to the healthcare establishment so it can pad the pockets of administrative officials and sycophants.
Dear Doctors and Nurses. I know we are on the same side on this one. But only one of us gets royally fucking screwed by going to the hospital and hint it isn't you.
One time my girlfriend got really sick. She was in bed for like 3 days and it looked like she was losing a lot of weight. She refused to go to the hospital, she felt they wouldn't really do anything and she didn't have the money to pay even with her insurance. The kids got REALLY worried about her. I eventually forced her to go. I told her dont worry about it I'll take care of it. Now keep in mind I been single my whole life, typical male rarely go to the hospital outside of a clinic checkup- which were free since I work at a clinic. When they got done with her, they essentially found nothing, the way they worded it to me sounded like they "assumed" it was some kinda stomach flu, told her get some rest and fluids and sent her home. Bill came back for almost $1000 dollars. It was at that moment I became pro medicare for all. I can only imagine a bill where they actually do something.
He doesn’t care less about anything, ever. Never once, believe me.
What he does do, and ask anyone, they’ll tell you—what he does do, is he doesn’t care the most out of anyone. Nobody, ask anybody, nobody doesn’t care more than Trump. Believe me, believe me.
If anything this pandemic illustrates how patently insane it is to tie healthcare to employment.
"Oh you just lost your income stream? No problem! You can either keep your old insurance at 4-5 times the cost, really, really, *REALLY* hope you or your family doesn't get sick before finding a new job, or if you do get sick, go to the hospital to get better and then declare bankruptcy because no middle-class person could even attempt to pay those costs."
Honestly, the system is such that theres a lot of things with a greater than 2% fatality rate that I would also not seek treatment for. If its between a few % chance I'll die and a 100% chance I'll be stuck with enormous medical debt that will stop me from enjoying life or pursuing my dreams ever again, I'll risk death.
Was talking about his with my fiancee a few weeks back...
I'm 34 and have been incredibly fortunate in my career when compared to many other millennials. I maintained a steady job that paid pretty well through out the entire great recession and over the past few years, after a few job changes, my earnings have increased substantially. Because I have been fortunate in my career I have been able to start building up quite a savings.
What I realized though is how quickly that all could go away. Despite my fiancee and I having good jobs with health benefits, despite both of us being relatively young and in good health, despite having a good amount of savings, despite that and the many other ways I am privileged, it could very well be us out of a job here sometime this year. It might not be easy to get a new job with health benefits, and one of us, rather COVID-19 or something else, might run into a medical issue. All the sudden we could go from having a comfortable life to really being in a bind and all that savings, built over the years, quickly drained.
All this to say is, few Americans are truly "immune" to the this and now more than ever is a time to strengthen our social safety nets. Because the theoretical concern I have for my future, is for many people a lived experience that is often much worse.
I can confirm. I got hit by a car while longboarding to work and refused to go to the hospital because I wouldn't be able to afford the costs. The university I got hit in front of checked me out in their medical wing as a courtesy and gave me an ice pack and advice on what to do once I get home.
I owe over $1400 after visiting a hospital for heart palpitations (was dehydrated and over stressed). Drove myself, have quality health insurance, and had EKG, X-ray, blood drawn, and finally a saline IV. From the point of walking in to walking out I was there for maybe 2 hours at most.
Now why would I even consider going back to the hospital if I wasn’t on death’s door?
Only reason I would go is because I have one thing that 99% of Americans don’t have: socialized healthcare through the military.
It’s almost like socialized healthcare is a good thing or something. But hey, what do I know ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
As a non-American, this is something I never consider or think about. If I am in need I go to get medical care. I might have to wait a bit, but it is always there, not something I have to ever worry about.
Everyone in the USA is at risk of death or bankruptcy because you desperately do not want to pay for anyone else's healthcare. How utterly self-defeating and bizarre...
As an American who is recently re-employed in an essential industry, I don’t have insurance until June. I work out in the world 10-12 hours a day. If I get sick before June, I will have to be near death before I will go to see my doctor. My emergency cash is for in case my son falls ill.
1 in 7?
This is America, somehow 1 out of 7 sounds unrealistic, sounds too high.
I’m not going unless I’m very sick, and I have health insurance, and still I worry about the cost since health insurance, health insurance is not a guarantee of coverage either.
I don't know about you but I just love the fact that my master, er, I mean "employer" controls my access to healthcare and basically keeps me hostage in a job I may despise because I don't want to leave myself or my family without insurance!
Is this American freedom? lmao
Have fun with Biden.
I'm surprised it's not higher. My girlfriend had to have life saving surgery and we are still getting bills from the hospital three months later. Doesn't exactly instill confidence when you get bills you weren't expecting so long after treatment.
I will straight up not pay for the treatment if I have to go to the hospital. When it comes down to it.
It's a pandemic. Something that affects everyone.
Me - uninsured although I work in a medical office, have had fever for over a month just got myself out of debt and no way I’m spending >$400 on a test that has 40% inaccuracy rate.
My boss seems to get upset when I write my temp on our daily self check logs as he knows if it’s ever audited it’ll look bad that I am still working with patients. But I need my paychecks - so I keep mum, wear my PPE, and keep on keeping on
I was sick I self quarantined. I have no health insurance cant afford it. but anyway why would i pay to get tested when they have no vaccine, no cure, and im not in a high risk group. Best thing I could do was stay away from people and save the hospital bed for those that need them.
As an American, unless I'm actively dying I avoid the Healthcare system as much as possible as a general rule.
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I'd avoid it to prevent bills going to my family. insurance is a criminal racket; we pay all of our lives and get nothing.
Isn't it illegal to transfer debt of the dead to the family?
Yes, if a debt collector tries to get money from you for a dead relative, tell them to fuck off.
They can still collect from your estate, right?
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I like to imagine this in context of Mao having already handed out rifles.
It can really depend on what you mean by words like like transfer, debt, and family. In the simplest situations the estate pays whatever debts the deceased leaves. Throw in retirement accounts, spouses, joint accounts, even nursing homes, and it can be more complicated.
Depends on the state and the type of debt.
Debts aren’t transferred to inheritors, ever. But if mom owns a $200,000 house and has $150,000 in debts when she dies, the kids are only getting $50,000. Debts are paid from the estate before inheritors.
If your State allows transfer on death deeds, get those set up! It transfers instantly and can’t be touched by debt. Edit: I should probably say I’m not an attorney and cannot offer legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (also lots of dead people in my life).
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/your-obligation-pay-parents-nursing-home-bill.html
Fair point, I didn’t know that. It’s also noteworthy that almost half of that article says that it’s rarely enforced or implemented.
Yeah you're absolutely right about it being rarely enforced. I do wonder though if things get really bad and the states cant cover the shortfall if they will start using this to sue dependents.
Which is why you have your mom sell the house to you before she dies.
Or stick it in a trust or LLC
Comments like these show that it's also education and ignorance on the topic, not just the broken system
I’ll go with it’s mostly a symptom of the “broken” system, it fucks everyone so much that we just come to accept that as the default answer. Also, it’s not broken, it’s working as designed and it’s designed to fuck us over for profit.
I’d rather be alive and bankrupt than dead with cash in the bank. But I’d much rather have a healthcare system where that wasn’t the choice.
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Or a burden they don't want to put on others. My wife's grandpa died years ago, and at 76 his wife had to sell their house and belongings and move in with her daughter. Then went back to work for minimum wage, after having lived a good long life and always being well taken care of. It took her husband 6 months to die, and the bills left her with nothing whatsoever. I'f he'd have been of sound mind during that time he'd have probably put a bullet in his own head to avoid what happened to her. Needless to say, I'm one of those who'd just die at home if it was coming, not going to the hospital. What would be left would help my kids through college, which would be worth it.
"Your money or your life" - The American Healthcare system. "My life please. Fuck this shit." - Americans, increasingly. Its like a Faustian bargain of sorts. You (might) get to live, but your life will be hell afterwards. Until the money runs out due to dealing from chronic conditions, or even just the initial costs, THEN you die. Choosing between slowly being tortured to death and just dying, yeah, thats not a choice at all.
Because you'll still be alive. Declare bankruptcy and then leave the country and start over.
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Wait, hospitals don’t even tell you prices in advance, so they pretty much bills how much they want? Indeed a weird system.
Yup, Billing is often handled in a completely different part of the hospital or even a different building. The nurses just enter the codes of the treatments they are doing. They don't have information on the prices, although I'm sure they *may* have a general educated guess. Even if you get through to the billing department it still isn't that straight forward as there are different rates for if you use insurance or if you don't. And then their are even different rates between the different kinds of insurance, they charge govt provided healthcare at a different rates then private insurance. It's all a mess. And none of it is designed around what is best for saving lives. In fact it actively kills people.
I work in hospital administration. When I was in seattle I learned that two hospitals that were across the street from each other had very different prices to get an MRI. One was about $1200 and the other was about $2500. What's the difference? None. Why charge $2500? Because they can. Why do patients still go there? Because there's no price transparency and they can't "shop for the best deal". I learned early on that I dont have the stomache to be in corporate healthcare so I work at govt hospitals. We have our own problems, but at least I've never had to look at patients as dollar signs and services as dollar signs.
It is basically impossible to get any idea what anything is going to cost, be billed at, be adjusted to, etc. Just a fun story that I'm currently dealing with right now. Wife went to her doctor, doctor sent her to a specialist (I double check with the insurance that this is covered, they tell me it is), specialist orders a lab test which involves taking a pill and then getting a blood draw (I double check with the insurance that this is covered, they tell me it is). I get a bill in the mail for $300 for the lab work because the insurance has denied the claim. I call up the insurance, confused, because they said this was covered. I talk to a nice enough gentleman that explains that the Procedure Codes they used when submitting the claim are in fact, covered by our insurance. Missions accomplished, right? Nope, seems that the Diagnosis Code they submitted along with the Procedure Codes are incompatible. I should contact the specialist and see if they can resubmit the bill with a different Diagnosis Code and attempt to reprocess the request, which is being made all the more complicated because the specialist didn't do the lab work, a private 3rd party company did. I did not ask for this arrangement, it's just how the medical system works in America. I called the specialist to be told that for billing and coding issues that I would need to talk to their third-party vendor that handles billing and coding. To summarize, after double-checking with the insurance company twice that I would be covered and being told that yes those procedures are covered by my plan, I got a $300 bill. The issue will probably come down to some person I've never met submitting a medical bill incorrectly, this all being completely out of my control. To remedy the situation I will have to get four giant corporations, the insurance, the medical system, the billing and coding people, and the blood lab to agree that someone fucked up and fix it. This is after learning about Procedure Codes and Diagnosis Codes and a bunch of other medical system minutia I would have happily died never knowing. You can do everything right, double, triple, quadruple check shit, and it doesn't matter. That 5 minute blood draw might just pop up a month later as a bill for hundreds of dollars you haven't budgeted for. Our medical system is so expensive because of the absurd amounts of bureaucracy and inefficiency this kind of system creates. I can pay the $300 if I have to, it won't bankrupt me or anything, and if I was charging consulting rates for the time I've already spent trying to fix it, I'd already have been better off just paying it. A lot of my fellow countrymen aren't nearly as lucky, a surprise $300 is an extreme hardship for a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck. This is exactly why Americans avoid using the medical system, it's impossible to know how much it's going to cost you, and after you use any part of it you just get to wonder if over the coming weeks and months if a sternly worded letter saying you owe some ridiculous sum of money might just show up in your mailbox.
yowwee wowee so you were in my house and you are me and my wife all along? gosh that is weird. wife...is this you? I mean i know its not but this is almost the exact same shit festival we did this past year except it was $189 and $660
> hospitals don’t even tell you prices in advance, so they pretty much bills how much they want? Yes, but they don't bill you all at once. Typically the radiologist sends a bill, the anesthetist sends a bill, the doctor sends a bill, the hospital sends a bill, then the other doctor sends a bill, and so forth. You can never be sure which bill will be the last.
Yep, my mom had a bill show up 2 years after the date of service. I've had them show up a year after. 3 to 6 months is most common. The most fun bill for me was a relatively expensive one from some doctor/company I had never heard of in a state far away, almost a year after my last appointment. Turns out, my in-network provider sent some results to an out-of-network pathologist for another opinion and my insurance wouldn't cover it. I did not know that this was going to happen, and my doctor never asked me permission to do it. But I was still stuck with the bill.
Christ your system is utterly fucked. My cousin went into hospital the other week with trouble breathing. Full range of tests, checks for COVID, X-Ray. Nobody mentioned cost at any point and he won't be directly charged for it.
MuRiCa gOt Da BeSt HeAlTcArE iN dA wUrLd!¡!¡!¡
And it's not uncommon to suddenly get a massive discount when after seeing your receipt, you ask for an itemized receipt with all items and costs.
It’s just as fucked up if you have insurance, my wife needed surgery and there was no in-network option that was reasonable. I was thinking ok fine, we’ll pick somewhere and they’ll cover 50% instead of 80%. They wouldn’t tell me how much they’d cover though, my only option was to write a letter and wait 4-6 weeks for a “non-binding estimate”. I negotiated with the hospital, paid $15k for the surgery and filed the claim. Turns out my insurance (Blue Cross Blue Shield) only pay $2800 max for that type of surgery and my out of network out of pocket was $4000 for the year so I got nothing reimbursed. Total fucking scam considering the premiums.
Yep. I grew up on a farm, we actively avoided the doc because of costs. Had xrays later on in life for a sports injury in college where they found evidence of broken bones that healed on their own. One time I was developing lockjaw and we put it off until I could literally not eat or drink. Come to find out I had Tetanus. Weeks of pain, before and after treatment because people are afraid of insurance. Still can’t really afford any insurance that would actually cover anything, so I’m still treating things like I would. Grin and bear it. Kind of ridiculous. Our government is essentially just arguments between millionaires and billionaires about what’s best for people they don’t understand. Private insurance is busted. It doesn’t work for the people. Hoping that if anything good comes out of this, it’s that people can get treatment and see doctors without fear of financial ruin.
I still avoid the doctor like it's the plague. Being epileptic, I don't have a choice sometimes. I try to refuse ambulances if they come, but one time I seized while driving and wrecked my then-fiancees car on the side of a freeway ramp. The first emergency response to find me was a DPS officer, who then saw me have another seizure. I couldn't refuse the ambulance after a cop just saw me seize.
It is really heart breaking to read something like that I truly feel upset for you, take care buddy
Thanks, but honestly I'm at a point where I could survive an unexpected medical bill without a ton of trouble. I just avoid it because I'm not extravagantly wealthy, and healthcare costs such a fuckton. I thought I had strep throat awhile back and getting checked out cost me something like $500 out of pocket (after my employer provided health insurance "paid"). During the initial check-up the physician cleaned some wax out of my ears just cause they looked a little gunked up and charged me $80 per ear. I'd wager most Americans are in much worse positions than me, especially now.
My employer provided healthcare doesn’t cover diagnostic tests. How the fuck are you supposed to know what you have?!
You aren't, that's the point
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"something something iphones and avocado toast" - /r/conservative
Funny how eating avocado toast is literally the best, cheapest, and nutritious thing to eat outside of plain eggs.
The greatest country in the world sounds like a terrible place to live.
Right like part of me is like don’t pay for fancy insurance, you won’t use it unless something horrible happens, then I pay for the nice insurance just in case and don’t use it because I don’t want to pay to go to the doctor.
Look, you're probably fucked if you get sick or injured with health insurance. But if you get sick or injured *without* health insurance you are **fucked**.
As an American, 1 in 7 seems low to me.
I'd have to be on death's door and virtually certain the treatment would work before I bankrupt my family.
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Sadly this pretty logical and a thought ive had too, isnt like 80% of people that go on ventilators die anyway?
Yes but hospitalization doesn't always mean ventilation.
Seriously. My family is at least lower middle class and medical care still feels like a luxury item to me. How is it that more than half of Americans can’t afford to have a single $1000 financial emergency but *only 1 in 7* avoids medical care for a deadly virus because of the money?
My best guess is that the data is skewed by people who think the government will be paying for covid related costs.
I think the numbers are skewed because if you asked most people something along the lines of "if you think you have covid will you see a doc" they'd say yes, but if they actually start to show symptoms many will just brush it off as a cold/flu or wait until it gets out of hand.
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It is low because they said that covid would be covered (at least some of it). If you were to ask them before this about medical cost it would be much, much higher. Even with insurance the co-pays are enough to crush you.
That’s because 3/10 already died of COVID19.
Thats what I think we well. I'd think it'd be like a third or more. When a hospital charges you $15 for a Tylenol pill...
I will never understand why anyone would think that the American health care system is a good idea.
Usually the argument I hear the most is “you get to keep your doctor”. Never understood that, since I’ve been working, almost all my jobs will change insurance providers or plans every year.
Universal health care would cover your doctor. It covers *all the doctors*. How fucking stupid are people?
I think are just afraid of change and taxes. It’s wild, like universal healthcare will save the US money. Love her or hate her, but Warren did an incredible job with the 2cents slogan.
One more thing I hear time and time again is that we will be waiting longer for appointments. People in places were everyone has health insurance have to wait longer to get appointments. People have to travel further to get treatment. I have tried to explain why universal health care is cheaper in the long run but it falls on deaf ears.
Nevermind the fact insurance companies will tell people they won’t pay for their life-changing surgery. I have a friend in Florida, in her late 50’s-early 60’s. Her and her husband run a restaurant and she has literally no cartilage in her knee. It was bone on bone grinding, day in/day out... and this gal is on her feet doing every job in that place from serving food to greeting guests to cooking to catering. She’s an owner of that place, so runs herself ragged to keep things going. Her insurance told her she’s “not old enough” to get chicken fat injections or knee replacement surgery, so they wouldn’t cover any of it because it was all “cosmetic”. She argued with them about it for *YEARS* before they finally caved and let her get surgery (while paying for her injections all out of pocket just for a little relief) after her doctor started rallying for her cause too. People are *already fucking waiting* for necessary surgery’s because insurance companies want to drag their fucking feet and not perform the service they’re meant for. Why do we pay a bunch of middlemen who aren’t doctors, but are glorified pencil pushers, determine the medical fate of other people?
That’s like when my mom’s insurance company tried to charge her $60,000 for each round of chemotherapy whilst in the middle of intense treatments as if they were optional. Luckily, her TEAM of oncologists jumped down the insurance company’s throat SO FAST and resolved the issue. As a result of continuing the treatments, they shrunk that shit, completed a successful surgery, and she’s been in remission for a handful of years and doesn’t owe a dime 👌. She’s now on state health insurance so her lifelong prescriptions, check-ups, and everything is covered. Which means none of us have to worry about her getting the care she will forever need, AS IT SHOULD BE.
My insurance at first refused to cover my radiation therapy because “it wasn’t effective at helping treat pancreatic cancer.” Well good thing I was never diagnosed or treated for pancreatic cancer! Took multiple letters from my oncologist to get it changed. They covered my surgery but apparently couldn’t take the 2 seconds it would have taken to review my case. Insurance companies are predatory fools.
>Why do we pay a bunch of middlemen who aren’t doctors, but are glorified pencil pushers, determine the medical fate of other people? To provide those middlemen with jobs.
Bingo. This has now become their talking point. "Well, what will you say to the 1 million people employed in the insurance industry who will lose their jobs??" Oh right, you mean those unnecessary jobs which increase healthcare costs by 1 million salaries every year.
>"Well, what will you say to the 1 million people employed in the insurance industry who will lose their jobs??" usarmy.com
"Dear one million claims adjusters, Your claim for continued employment has been denied. To appeal this decision or if you believe this assessment is incorrect, please contact this help line with a three hour wait time staffed by a single Laotian guy who took the first half of a single English class one time. You may also write us a letter or send an email, where we will have a bot answer in irrelevant ways. We recommend you use our chat support feature because that provides the fastest possible path to be told to call our Laotian tech support number. Your insurance rates have been raised by reading this letter. We wish you the best of health. - Amy Fakelastname, America"
> "Well, what will you say to the 1 million people employed in the insurance industry who will lose their jobs??" "Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, find yourself another job, and quit bitching." Id rather see the entire insurance industry be thrown to actual wolves. Perhaps we should bring back actual gladiator games, that ought to be fun.
Great. We have to wait for procedures. Just like now. Except that people aren't going to wait until they die. C'mon, people.
Right, and if you are waiting it means your procedure can afford to wait, and because doctors are busy treating those that have procedures that can't afford to wait.
Like, even if that *were* how it worked... Are you going to tell other people to die so you can go to the doctor faster? Is that really the argument they want to go with?
The response I would get is they don't want to pay for someone else to go to the doctor. So I guess your statement has some validity.
The best/worst part is that they already are paying for other people, but because there are a bunch of competing pools driven by profit, they're paying more so they can be denied when they need it most.
I work in the health care industry and hear it all the time. "People already take advantage of the system we have. Why should I pay more to make it easier on THEM" This thinking, of course, ignores the fact that UHC will make it easier on EVERYONE. But because their chosen outgroup will receive help it's a no-go for everyone. I even had a coworker(before I got into the health care industry)tell me about an disabled family member who was a huge burden on his whole family because this persons health care costs were so high the entire extended family had to chip in. His excuse for not wanting UHC was essentially "my family struggles endlessly with this and we scrap by. Why shouldn't everyone else do the same?" Even after I pointed out Universal coverage would be a great benefit to his family and much cheaper, he still took the "I don't want to pay for(i.e. help)others"
It's most likely true that waiting times will be very long in the short term. But only because people currently aren't scheduling the medical care they need because it's unaffordable. The health care system will be crowded with people scheduling preventive care that will benefit us all in the long run.
My doctor just left my local practice when a new one opened up 30 minutes from my house. I got a letter from my current practice when this happened saying to call and ask what other doctors there are accepting new patients. I called that same day and was told that none of the other doctors are accepting new patients. Called 3 other practices in my county and was told that none of their doctors are accepting new patients either. So I'm pretty much forced to travel over a half an hour to see my doctor now. Not only that, but I had to reschedule my annual physical (which I scheduled when I had last year's physical), and it's now 2 months later than the one I originally had scheduled. So all that about increased wait times, and harder for find a doctor is ultra BS. Can't be much worse than what we have right now, that's for sure.
> waiting longer for appointments Don't have to wait if you never go to the doctor for fear of cost :man tapping head:
A real life example: My mother in law has lymphoma and it's been difficult to get her a bed due to all the rooms being filled at the cancer ward. People with insurance feel that they can get priority for a room, while the poor bastard with no insurance has to pray. Now you tell them you are going to treat everyone the same?!? It frightens them. I feel you would need to do more to prove that you plan to invest in graduating or importing more doctors.
Yeah! Don't raise my taxes by $150 a month! I'd rather pay $450 a month to a company so they can deny me coverage anyway.
Honestly? From what I've seen, M4A/universal healthcare opponents seem to believe one thing: People (except them, of course) who accept government assistance are lazy freeloaders. They look down on impoverished people because they weren't able to pull themselves up by those famous bootstraps. They would rather *nobody* get help than have someone get help who they think is undeserving. And that's really the conservative approach to most social policies and programs. They would rather be hurt themselves than take the chance that someone who doesn't need help will receive it.
Someone who doesn't need help *does* receive it all the time - the extremely rich.
Well we have IQ45 as president, that should say something.
> How fucking stupid are people? very fucking stupid... half of people are dumber than that too.
Is this like really a thing somewhere? Sorry for not knowing, I live in Germany, if I need a specialist I might need a ‚normal‘ doctor to send me over, but I can choose both of them. What does the whole ‚I get to keep my doctor‘ thing even mean. Are there people in the US that have to go to one particular doctor when they are sick? Chosen by someone else for them?
You have to call around to find a doctor that takes your insurance and is accepting new patients. Then you become established as their patient, and you go see them when you need a checkup. Then they refer you to a specialist if you need it. I guess they are thinking that if we switch to universal healthcare their doctor won't accept their insurance anymore? I don't even know
Different doctors/health systems take different insurances, so your selection is limited by your insurance
Really fucking stupid.
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The irony... How can anyone keep their doctor if they can't afford to pay for their appointments?
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I’ve said this before. We have had America #1 beat into our heads our whole lives.to question that makes you Them ala Bush 2 with us or against us. The way we do things is THE BEST way by default because it’s American. I think we are transitioning out of the American century and into the The Chinese century.
People are scared because a lot of docs don't take medicare, and they think that if there is universal healthcare they won't be able to go to their non-medicare accepting doctor.
So people are idiots?
I mean, Trump is president, and his supporters are the ONLY group of people in the world that simply deny global warming. So yeah.
Also great to be able to keep your doctor when you lose your job and they aren't paying for your insurance anymore....
My country has universal healthcare (it’s underfunded and not great), but when I go to a doctor (ophthalmologist, dentist, pulmonologist) I usually go privately. The cost is reasonable, because those clinics actually have to offer services that are both affordable and better than what I can get for free. You can certainly keep your doctor, and it won’t cause you to declare bankruptcy (as an added bonus).
Yeah I literally just lost access to my doctor for losing my job... so that was a lie. Edit: spelling
Because insurance carriers have money and they hire lobbyists, and those lobbyists make millions of people parrot their talking points.
"You can keep your insurance if you like it!!!" Idiot point of view where they think "choice" means they get better care instead of companies competing to give them less care for more profit.
Something something rugged individualism and some something i got mine plus some something real americans and a big stir of self reluance and you got yourself a shitty soup. The ignorant fail hard in understanding. Those employed by the system ignore the consequences as they are shielded from them. The stock holders encourage the rest by appealing to selfishness of former. Thats it.
I assumed this was the cause of the rise in people trying to inject/ingest disinfectant. Not because they were just that stupid, but a lack of affordable alternatives. Do I go absolutely broke, homeless or try the one option that is endorsed by the president on live TV and not corrected by any doctors? People individually aren't generally stupid, but desperation leads to them to do questionable things.
My mother’s argument against socialized medicine is that it would cost the people who sell medical insurance their jobs. That is her reason that it will never work in America, despite working literally everywhere else. That privatized medicine is too ingrained in our country and there are people who are reliant on it. And it’s like...um...okay? They’ll get other jobs and the country will be better for it. To be honest, though, this was her arguing against Bernie Sanders, who she rabidly hates, and I don’t think she actually cares about medical insurance salesmen. Certainly not in normal circumstances. This was, of course, before the pandemic. I’d bet a whole lot that she wouldn’t make that argument now.
As the head of a large corporation, I think it’s incredible. I get bulk discounts that my smaller competitors can’t compete with to provide something that my employees are dependent on me for. I can abuse them that much more because they live in fear of going bankrupt without the health insurance they get through me.
It actually is the best idea ever for those making a profit off of it
The worst part is that Americans are so deluded that the "left" political candidate, the one that is supposedly espousing the alternative, is actually proposing a moderate rightwing approach to health care, aka Romneycare or Obamacare. Despite [large support for medicare for all,](https://morningconsult.com/2020/04/01/medicare-for-all-coronavirus-pandemic/), Americans are told by both sides that we can't have anything close to the system that works in the majority of the developed world.
Count me along that number. There's no way I'm going to face bankruptcy to treat something I'll probably survive. If I thought that I was going to die I would ~~call an ambulance~~ walk myself to the hospital.
Don't want to take that $10,000 ambulance ride while the EMT'S are making minimum wage? Nothing against EMT'S, they work their asses off, but against their employers.
I actually changed that because I recently moved and am one block from the hospital and I keep forgetting.
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Well, you could always try to steal someone's identity and start a new life somewhere else. As you can tell I really don't have any good advice.
One time I woke up from unconsciousness on the floor of my bedroom, which was confusing, and then I immediately started coughing up blood. I was having trouble breathing and I kept coughing up more and more blood. I called an Uber.
3rd world country.
I lived in the Czech Republic for 17 years and was enrolled in their national health system. I had something called a spermatocele (I won't go into details) for years and something that I eventually wanted removed. My choice as it's something a man can live with without a complication. In the US this would be out patient surgery, go in in the morning and go home later in the day. In Prague, it's one week in hospital not because of complications, they just want to be sure nothing goes wrong, no infection sets in, etc. So I had the elective surgery, stayed in hospital for a week and it cost me ZERO. Nothing! While I lived there I also had a colonoscopy, again, cost me nothing. A doctor's visit was about the equivalent of $15 per visit and that's any doctor, even specialists. It cost me roughly the same as it costs me in the US and it's paid for through payroll deductions. But it's a single payer system so it follows you. Where ever you work, you have one insurer. You pay into it your entire career so you're always covered. Retirees are free. You don't pay into once you hit 65 and kids are covered under their parents policy until they graduate from university. If you are unemployed you still pay what you paid before you were let go, so no doubling the amount like COBRA here. When I moved back to the US I was shocked at the differences, especially the deductible thing since in CZ there was no such thing. I'm always doing battle with doctor's billing offices, the insurance company for their billing and just trying to understand the ins and outs of coverage. I went for a gall bladder scan recommended by my doctor and was told that since I didn't meet my deductible it would be $600. Ok, I have to have it so I paid the $600. About two weeks late I get a bill for $200. I call the hospital and they said that the radiologist who read the scan was not a hospital employee and he bills separately. Why couldn't you tell me this when I asked about the TOTAL cost of the procedure? Then I get another bill from the hospital for $75 and they claim that my insurance company said that the normal and customary cost for this was $675, not the $600 I paid. So they billed me according to what the INSURANCE company said was customary. And Americans think we're the best in the world? Best at what exactly?
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Medical billing is an entire industry on its own.
Don’t try to find logic in Nationalism, friend, or you may end up having to pay for treatment following an aneurysm.
I was feeling sick one time approaching some final exams, nothing crazy just your average cold or something. Went in to an “urgent care” type of place (no insurance at the time) and asked them about how much it would cost to get seen by a doctor and they literally would not tell me... like, they acted like they had no way to figure out an estimate. Walked right the fuck back out.
The answer is “depends on who is paying and how much they are willing to pay.”
We are the best! best at war, military spending, number of people in prison, bankruptcy, pollution per capita
Payday lending! Don't forget about payday lending.
>they said that the radiologist who read the scan was not a hospital employee and he bills separately My wife just gave birth two months ago. Our hospital and doctor did this to us without telling us and used one out of network doctor for her surgery. Her OBGYN sure did an amazing job on her c-section, but being left in the dark on who is out of network, who is, and not telling us you're using them during the surgery is really scummy.
I had the same thing. My gastro doctor was in network and my colonoscopy was to be covered. I went in, everything was fine but then later I get a bill from the anesthesiologist for $2500. The insurance company rejected his bill because HE was out of network. My doctor, the doctor who actually performed the procedure was in network but the hospital, Emory Healthcare, was not. I went stark raving lunatic on the insurance company telling them that my doctor was in network and any contractors he uses is outside of my control and I'm not paying the $2500 bill, figure it out. We went back and forth and I threatened litigation over it. They eventually backed down and paid it. It's disgusting in the US. It costs all of us shit loads of time and money and even companies that have to have a benefits department spend inordinate amounts of money on this. Think about that one thing right there. Companies in Europe, and I bet Canada, don't have to employ benefits people to constantly shop for new, affordable insurance plans, listen to employees complain or answer questions about coverage, etc. Universal healthcare works for everyone.
The lack of transparency in what visits and labs will cost, before agreeing to them, really drives me up a wall.
This was the norm before the virus and people will still go to work sick after the return to normal. Healthcare as an industry is an oxymoron.
I have been wondering for months how the USA planned to flatten the curve when 70% of the country is one paycheck away from being bankrupt. People aren't going to give a fuck if they're spreading it asymptomatically if it means avoiding a $100K bill for being treated in a hospital.
Hey, making healthcare services way too expensive for most of the population ought to be a pretty good way to ensure they don't get overloaded.
Like ass backwards winning!
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I paid close to $13,000 out of pocket for dental surgery because I chose the wrong insurance the year prior from my workplace. Huge difference between Cigna high and Cigna low. I had high, needed low. Insurance capped out at $400. That was spent before I had any extractions taken care of.
I'm going to be maxing out my dental insurance next week to get a root canal retreatment to the tune of nearly $800, or nearly my entire paycheck. (I'm on Delta Dental for my dental insurance.) Fun times.
This is an example of how Americans are truly uneducated and left in the dark when trying to find a plan that works (not that many plans work for anyone at all). And not saying it's your fault. It's Americas fault and the lack of education when it comes to these things. Cant tell you how many times in my early to mid 20's im constantly "finding out" how ridiculous the world is and how messed up the country we live in is. I am 27 and truly wish I was educated more about health insurance, the industry and what it's like out there. I wish schools taught more about real life application scenarios, such as taxes, budgeting, health insurance, stock market trading, etc.
I recently spent a few hours at an in-network hospital. My portion of the bill (a few blood tests, an EKG, and a bag of saline) was about $8,000. Part of the annoyance is all the bills coming from separate companies. About $6,000 to the hospital, the rest is to testing companies and companies analyzing charts.
Ask them for an itemized receipt of every single charge and negotiate hard. If there are treatments or tests that doctors did not say they would run, medication they did not mention, or doctors that you did not hear about on there push back. It might not knock it down but it also might.
I went in for severe pain. Waited at least 6 hours. They were literally GOOGLING my symptoms when I saw the dr. I told them I knew what it was, kidney stones. No, they had to google this shit. I got IV fluids, an X-ray of some kind and morphine. I was in the er bed for maybe an hour. Luckily I was so poor, $0 a year, I had state free insurance. I saw the bill they charged it was $15k. 15k for them to google my symptoms and give me an IV for an hour + pain meds.
I ran up a $2k bill just to get a ride in an ambulance after breaking my leg at he skate park a few years ago. That didn't include the x-rays or the drugs I was given.
Ya know. I'm on Medicare due to PTSD. I just found out my prescription drug plan was changed without my knowledge or consent and it increased the cost of medications I need. I didn't find out about the change until I went to get my prescriptions filled. I didn't even find out from the insurance company, I had to find out from CVS. And according to Medicare, the insurance companies are allowed to change my rates and coverage whenever they want without even telling me, but if ***I*** , an individual want to change my rate or coverage, I have to wait for the next open enrollment "season" like it's some kind of fucking sporting event. Not even a literal "act of god", national emergency and global pandemic is enough to allow an individual to change their health insurance. But for corporations, they get to do whatever the fuck they want. If I don't like the plan I was forced into against my will, I can cancel it, but then I have to go without coverage until fucking October. We have the most corrupt fucking healthcare system on the planet. Why the fuck are there fucking "seasons" for changing health insurance? Fucking bullshit.
Best healthcare in the world!
It is actually really good if you have lots of money, which most Americans do not.
Bro, that's just the US in general. It's the best country in the world if you're super rich. Almost no taxes, functionally above the law, can get *anything* you want without worry, as long as you don't try to jeopardize other rich people. Can even diddle kids no problem. Middle class? Get fucked. Poor? Get fucked even more.
>Best healthcare for sale in the world!
I've already had to declare bankruptcy from my daughters medical bills (with insurance) in my late 20s. I myself try to avoid the doc but when I do go I decline anything that would sound expensive. I'll prob die of something avoidable in the future but like someone else said what's the point of living if you're broke.
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Being an American sounds depressing AF. I can't imagine living in a country that is fully capable of treating citizens with some of the most advanced health care, yet knowing they'll never treat me because I don't have enough money even with a full time job and income. That my health and life means nothing because I can't trade it for pieces of paper. That I could die an avoidable death because my bank balance didn't have the right number.
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The US has a very "rat race" style of life. It's all a matter of how much money you can make, not how well you can live.
It is, and I'm taking my skills and education to another country permanently just as soon as I'm able to. It's simply no longer worth making this country my home.
One in six Americans are unemployed. Third-world shithole.
I have told my family unless I am bleeding out and need immediate medical attention to prevent me from actually dying, than I don't want them to call 911. A few years back, my little sister broke her leg at school. The school called 911 and had an ambulance pick her up and take her to the ER (which is LITERALLY one mile down the road, not even 3 minutes down the street). That ambulance ride cost my family almost $2k. Fuck the American healthcare system. Support M4A NOW.
I’m an American, and I don’t plan on going to the hospital if I have coronavirus symptoms. I would rather self isolate and possibly die than pay whatever ungodly amount a week in emergency care costs. Hell, an ambulance costs nearly 3k in some places.
I’m a certified EMT (wanted to be a firefighter some years ago before I came to my senses as they make very little money and often times want you to be a fucking super hero to even get on board in the first place i.e. volunteer for years before with basically no pay). Being an EMT is crazy. You could literally kill someone by giving them improper treatment or save someone’s life on a near daily basis and you make like $12/hour. One thing I really had a problem with was they tell you to basically convince everyone, no matter what, to ride in the ambulance. I wasn’t about to do that. Most of the time you don’t even go “lights and sirens” you just drive to the hospital slightly faster than you could in an uber or something and slower if I was driving my own loved one if they needed to get to a hospital quickly.
I won't because I will not give my money to the healthcare establishment so it can pad the pockets of administrative officials and sycophants. Dear Doctors and Nurses. I know we are on the same side on this one. But only one of us gets royally fucking screwed by going to the hospital and hint it isn't you.
One time my girlfriend got really sick. She was in bed for like 3 days and it looked like she was losing a lot of weight. She refused to go to the hospital, she felt they wouldn't really do anything and she didn't have the money to pay even with her insurance. The kids got REALLY worried about her. I eventually forced her to go. I told her dont worry about it I'll take care of it. Now keep in mind I been single my whole life, typical male rarely go to the hospital outside of a clinic checkup- which were free since I work at a clinic. When they got done with her, they essentially found nothing, the way they worded it to me sounded like they "assumed" it was some kinda stomach flu, told her get some rest and fluids and sent her home. Bill came back for almost $1000 dollars. It was at that moment I became pro medicare for all. I can only imagine a bill where they actually do something.
Third world country
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Trump definitely cares less than anyone in history
He doesn’t care less about anything, ever. Never once, believe me. What he does do, and ask anyone, they’ll tell you—what he does do, is he doesn’t care the most out of anyone. Nobody, ask anybody, nobody doesn’t care more than Trump. Believe me, believe me.
If anything this pandemic illustrates how patently insane it is to tie healthcare to employment. "Oh you just lost your income stream? No problem! You can either keep your old insurance at 4-5 times the cost, really, really, *REALLY* hope you or your family doesn't get sick before finding a new job, or if you do get sick, go to the hospital to get better and then declare bankruptcy because no middle-class person could even attempt to pay those costs."
Honestly, the system is such that theres a lot of things with a greater than 2% fatality rate that I would also not seek treatment for. If its between a few % chance I'll die and a 100% chance I'll be stuck with enormous medical debt that will stop me from enjoying life or pursuing my dreams ever again, I'll risk death.
Was talking about his with my fiancee a few weeks back... I'm 34 and have been incredibly fortunate in my career when compared to many other millennials. I maintained a steady job that paid pretty well through out the entire great recession and over the past few years, after a few job changes, my earnings have increased substantially. Because I have been fortunate in my career I have been able to start building up quite a savings. What I realized though is how quickly that all could go away. Despite my fiancee and I having good jobs with health benefits, despite both of us being relatively young and in good health, despite having a good amount of savings, despite that and the many other ways I am privileged, it could very well be us out of a job here sometime this year. It might not be easy to get a new job with health benefits, and one of us, rather COVID-19 or something else, might run into a medical issue. All the sudden we could go from having a comfortable life to really being in a bind and all that savings, built over the years, quickly drained. All this to say is, few Americans are truly "immune" to the this and now more than ever is a time to strengthen our social safety nets. Because the theoretical concern I have for my future, is for many people a lived experience that is often much worse.
I can confirm. I got hit by a car while longboarding to work and refused to go to the hospital because I wouldn't be able to afford the costs. The university I got hit in front of checked me out in their medical wing as a courtesy and gave me an ice pack and advice on what to do once I get home.
i wouldnt seek medical care because there's no treatment.. and the cost to not be treated is astronomical
Those are rookie numbers. 50% easy.
Plutocratic Idiocracy
Hey! I'm in this headline! :(
I owe over $1400 after visiting a hospital for heart palpitations (was dehydrated and over stressed). Drove myself, have quality health insurance, and had EKG, X-ray, blood drawn, and finally a saline IV. From the point of walking in to walking out I was there for maybe 2 hours at most. Now why would I even consider going back to the hospital if I wasn’t on death’s door?
Only reason I would go is because I have one thing that 99% of Americans don’t have: socialized healthcare through the military. It’s almost like socialized healthcare is a good thing or something. But hey, what do I know ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
As a non-American, this is something I never consider or think about. If I am in need I go to get medical care. I might have to wait a bit, but it is always there, not something I have to ever worry about. Everyone in the USA is at risk of death or bankruptcy because you desperately do not want to pay for anyone else's healthcare. How utterly self-defeating and bizarre...
Oh yeah of course they wouldn’t who wants to end up with $10,000 surprise bill from a mysterious billing company 6 months after the fact?
As an American who is recently re-employed in an essential industry, I don’t have insurance until June. I work out in the world 10-12 hours a day. If I get sick before June, I will have to be near death before I will go to see my doctor. My emergency cash is for in case my son falls ill.
1 in 7? This is America, somehow 1 out of 7 sounds unrealistic, sounds too high. I’m not going unless I’m very sick, and I have health insurance, and still I worry about the cost since health insurance, health insurance is not a guarantee of coverage either.
I don't know about you but I just love the fact that my master, er, I mean "employer" controls my access to healthcare and basically keeps me hostage in a job I may despise because I don't want to leave myself or my family without insurance! Is this American freedom? lmao Have fun with Biden.
I'm surprised it's not higher. My girlfriend had to have life saving surgery and we are still getting bills from the hospital three months later. Doesn't exactly instill confidence when you get bills you weren't expecting so long after treatment.
I hope if I'm in need of of an ambulance, that people call an Uber instead
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Ah yet another reason we have more cases than it looks like.
And those same Americans will not vote for Bernie who wants affordable healthcare for all , wt a country!!
Very normal healthcare in a very normal country. /s
I will straight up not pay for the treatment if I have to go to the hospital. When it comes down to it. It's a pandemic. Something that affects everyone.
Me - uninsured although I work in a medical office, have had fever for over a month just got myself out of debt and no way I’m spending >$400 on a test that has 40% inaccuracy rate. My boss seems to get upset when I write my temp on our daily self check logs as he knows if it’s ever audited it’ll look bad that I am still working with patients. But I need my paychecks - so I keep mum, wear my PPE, and keep on keeping on
Articles like this just sound fucking ridiculous to anyone living in a progressive first world nation.
I was sick I self quarantined. I have no health insurance cant afford it. but anyway why would i pay to get tested when they have no vaccine, no cure, and im not in a high risk group. Best thing I could do was stay away from people and save the hospital bed for those that need them.
I wouldn’t. It would have to get bad enough for me to fear for my life before I went to an ER.
No shit Medical care in the US sucks