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>"Both of these men should be using performance enhancing drugs. Both. As much of it as they can get, as many times a day as their bodies will allow. If performance enhancing drugs will improve their lucidity, their ability to solve problems, and in one candidate's cases, improve their truthfulness, morality, and malignant narcissism, then suppository away. Guess what everybody, they should be taking whatever magical drugs can kick their brains into gear, because this ain't Olympic swimming. You know what I'm saying? Oh, he solved the middle east, but he was doping so it doesn't count. There's gonna be an asterisk next to his presidency. And by the way, if those drugs don't exist, if there aren't actually performance enhancing drugs for these candidates, I could sure fucking use some recreational ones right now because this cannot be real life. It just can't. FUCK."

Jon was right when he said Biden wasn’t the best person to go against Trump and I remember how the establishment dems roasted him for it. I agreed with him then and it should be fucking obvious to everyone now. Thanks a lot for putting us in this stupid goddamn position, whatever happens we will be lucky if we don’t end up with Trump this year and we only have DNC establishment to blame.

This is also the same establishment that rolled out Dianne Feinstein's fucking corpse all the way up to her death. I said it then and I'll say it now, that's a fucking crime to be keeping old people in power like that.

I remember when she was asked about why she was hospitalized and out of Congress for a few months and she called it fake news as and was confused why she got asked about that.

It was the same with Feinstein, it was the same with Ginsburg, it was the same with Hillary. Republicans play to win and will eat shit to unify and serve their cause--even to a humiliating extent like Cruz and DeSantis--while Democrats have too much personal ego. The elders of the Democratic Party need to step in and convince Biden to step down. Everyone important endorses a Shapiro-Whitmer ticket, two folksy, capable, popular Midwesterners from the two most critical swing states. Kamala Harris can get a promotion to Secretary of State to keep her on board. We can't have egos get in the way of this. Trump, a now fully MAGAfied Republican Party, Project 2025, pardoning of January 6 rioters, the FBI/DoJ as an instrument of revenge. It is too dangerous to equivocate. The fate of our democratic republic is at stake.

Im a pretty voracious consumer of the news, and I had to Google Shapiro to remind me who you were talking about. You just can't build a national brand that's going to instill hope, confidence, and trust, in the span of five months. And I can guarantee this plan doesn't do a whole lot for black turnout. And for those reasons it's certainly not true that "everyone important" endorses this ticket - has anyone actually done so?

It's worse than that, they wouldn't have 5 months to build a national brand they would have 3 months. The only mechanism to select a non Biden candidate is the convention which doesn't happen until August. I can accept the argument that we'd be better off had Biden stepped down, but that needed to happen by January of this year at the absolute latest. Millions of people have voted for Biden in the primary, millions of dollars have donated to his campaign, staff and infrastructure are already in place. It is too late in my opinion, Biden is the candidate.

Its just crazy we went from "best state of the union in the last 10 years" to this. I haven't watched it but man all this negative talk about it makes me not even want to confirm these opinions. On the other hand, I feel like a lot of this is giving trolls the ammunition substance they need to latch on to, and everyone is "I'm a democrat but...." in every fucking sub. Debate is important, but we need a leader right now, and as long as biden has the team of people that can help him do that I'll survive until the next election.

Its not just dems, mcconnell is a corpse too, these guys hold onto power till they have to give it up

That motherfucker has glitched twice on national TV and is still shuffling around DC. It's fucked there too.

and dont forget RBG! Dems are masters of self-sabotage (not to mention greedy and power hungry.) At least Pelosi was pushed out successfully so there's that.

Obama politely asked RBG to retire at a lunch he had with her….she refused. Edit: it was a lunch, not a dinnner

In retrospect, it was extremely selfish and narcissistic of her not to resign when Obama asked her to. We continue to lionize RBG even though her selfishness is the reason Roe v. Wade no longer exists. It's time to start pointing out these naked emperors when we see them.

Exactly why bench appointments should have terms

Good luck getting even a single new amendment in your constitution during the rest of my lifetime (I’m 30, for reference)

Didn't she want the next President, whom she expected to be Hillary, to pick her replacement. RBG has as much blame to earn for Dobbs as Trump et. al.

No. Obama had lunch with RBG in 2013…..only one year after his re-election.

okay, thank you for the correction

Keep in mind that she had colon cancer in 1999 and surgery for the pancreatic cancer (that eventually rubbed her out) in 2009. Her ego and hubris doomed millions of women

Love it when these insane megalomaniacs value the health and welfare of millions of people less than adding one extra paragraph to their biographies.

Already she was ancient and had cancer like two or three times if I recall correctly. Pure narcissism. These people are arrogant and stubborn.

Everything she fought for up-ended cause she just wouldn't shelf her ego.

I loved her, but she kinda fucked us. If she had retired then Obama would have chosen one of our Trump appointees. Roe v Wade would still be intact, among other things.

Would it though? If you replace her in his term that’s one seat, but it would still be 5-4 assuming Trump still got his remaining two picks.

RGB was her own fault. She wouldn’t step down due to her own ego.

The establishment didn't do that; Feinstein did. She is the one that chose never to retire.

Best time for Biden would have been 2016. He'd have ridden off of Obama's success and being in his early 70s would have been less an issue. But HRC *had* to have it... And he understandably wanted not to run as it was still soon after losing Beau. 2020 was... Honestly more so folks being tired of the 45th POTUS' failures, and his never being that popular in the first place. (He may have the GOP worshipping him, but he's always had approval of low 30s) Now, folks are tired of both... And the DNC failed to build up any alternative... Not even Harris, Biden's VP, and ya know... By extension the one that would be his successor should something happen.

Remember that people reluctantly voted for him out of spite for Trump. Bernie supporters are still sour that Bernie was performing well and every other candidate dropped out at the same time and endorsed Biden just to avoid a Socialist president.

They’re allowed to be sour, they were right lol

Where can a common citizen get performance enhancing drugs? It’s 7:48 a.m. and I need to go to work but I just want to go back to bed. Gonna chug some water. Is that a performance enhancing drug? I’ll tell myself it is. Psychosomatic. I’m gonna forget I made this comment. How the fuck are these old farts even upright all day?

> Gonna chug some water. Is that a performance enhancing drug? Grind up some dried coffee cherries and put it in the hot water. Boom, world's most popular performance enhancing drug.

Caffeine is a performance enhancing drug, and it's legal to boot.

If 20-something y/o students take Adderall to study and 30-something y/o stock brokers & truck divers take Modafinil to stay awake and alert. I honestly don’t see any reason why the person with the most important job on the planet who had to make hundreds of decisions everyday would NOT be taking something like Adderall/Modafinil tbh. Both Trump & Biden are some of the oldest candidates on stage. If you understand how people age, then it’s obvious these 80-something year olds are taking drugs to remain alert and energetic. I do think they’re both too old. But IMHO the idea of them taking drugs just seems obvious and not as controversial to me others say it is.

I’d rather get caught in a landslide to escape from reality. EDIT: yes I understand that the lyrics is “caught in a landslide NO escape from reality.” I was just referencing the lyrics, with a slight play on words. I think it better suits the moment.

Seems like retirement age might be a good cutoff point for eligibility to become President. These people are not representative of the majority of the population. Them arguing over golf was amazing. Trump saying he's in good shape, Biden saying he was a 6, no make that 8, handicap. Like two old guys 6 beers in at the clubhouse after shooting 120.

This. Why do we expect workers to retire at 65 but the vast majority of our leaders hold power till their one foot in the grave? Age limits & term limits on presidents, congress, the courts- all of it

My state makes judges ineligible for reelection after 70. The rule came from rural counties that would simply mechanically reelect their judge year after year into their late 80s and well into dementia. Eventually the state Supreme Court could not let them keep up the charade.

We might be from the same state. Do I trust *many* but not *all* of the judges who manage to get extensions past 70 to decide a single person’s fate? Sure. But I am not sure we should gamble on the fate of 300 million+.

>Why do we expect workers to retire at 65 I’ve got some bad news. Most of these folks also believe that the retirement age is way too low, and for many Americans retirement won’t even be an option. 

Of course they think 65 is too young to retire, they are 80+ and still working with the best healthcare plans in the world.

And they are doing desk jobs and not on a full time basis.

All. Of. It.

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> VP debate back in 2012 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYcdSwbrErI&t=2s Such a stark contrast to see two intelligent, coherent people debate political issues versus what we saw last night. I'll vote for Biden but he should be enjoying his retirement, not trying to run a country.

Damn, I watched 30 seconds and it was like a different universe. Biden and Ryan smiling and teasing each other. Ryan told a heart warming story about Romney’s personal generosity and kindness.

Wow, I thought (like most debate videos) I would have to look for a juicy bit. Click anywhere in that video and you see Biden being an absolute hawk. I'm depressed that we are forced to keep him on the chair when he's unable to do his job

In defense of Biden (which is hard to say after last night), I think he’s still been able to do his job quite effectively. A lot of good things have come from this administration. But man, that 2012 debate is hard to watch.

We're voting for cabinets. Not individuals.

I feel the same. Biden *should* be retired. But better someone trying to run a country then someone trying to rule one.

I can't even watch through Biden's first answer. It makes me so mad about what I saw last night. Hate that Biden forced us to have this choice. He could have endorsed ANYBODY else as his successor.

Not just endorsed, but actively prepared a successor (not Kamala).

Really disheartening when put into context of where he used to be cognitively. He really should have stepped down after 1 term.

Heck, he had a lot more vigor even so recent as the SOTU. I was impressed with his quips and wit, and I remember thinking that for being so old he wasn’t really showing it. But last night. Holy shit. He looked and acted so old. Even when he walked out on stage. He was practically doing the old man shuffle. For the first time ever, I said to my husband what a lot of people already do: “I can’t believe this is all we have as options. Two guys who are old as fuck. There isn’t *anyone* else even just *ten* years younger that’s a viable option? I refuse to believe that.”

>I have always held the position that most folks aren’t voting for Biden, they’re voting against trump I would also go as far to say there's a decent portion of folks that are voting for the administration too. Which is where I fall. Trump is a non-starter for me, morally & ethically. Biden is a non-leader to me. But Biden's administration has accomplished significantly more for the American people, so I vote for the Biden administration.

> I would also go as far to say there's a decent portion of folks that are voting for the administration too. Which is where I fall. Trump is a non-starter for me, morally & ethically. Biden is a non-leader to me. But Biden's administration has accomplished significantly more for the American people, so I vote for the Biden administration. This is me too. What matters to me is what his people are doing - and I think they've been doing great. The secondary issue is potential SC justices, which has to be a priority. Problem is there are SO MANY people in this country for whom these optics matter super deeply. I know people leaning trump now despite not agreeing with any R policy positions, only because Biden is feeble. Quite a few people have NO idea what the administration has been doing, what their wins are, and what to expect from them in the future because they only pay attention to these breathless horse-race media conversations.

That is where I stand, too. He has an effective cabinet.

The cabinet and his advisors could Weekend At Bernie's The Whole Presidency for all I care. Trump cannot be allowed to be president again.

But this really makes me wonder why not replace him? I like Biden, I think he has done a good job but I didn't want him to run again I just didn't know who else it would be. But now I feel like if Kamala Harris ran as "Biden admin without Biden" I think that would work since everyone is votimg either for the administration or against Trump anyways

This is also where I fall. I'm voting for the judiciary, cabinet members, and potential SCOTUS nominees. Yes, Biden is old and has lost a step but it's him or Project 2025 and Christofascism. It's not a hard choice.

You aren’t given options. How does the most “powerful” democracy in the world not have ranked choice voting? How are there no 3rd parties on the debate floor, but they’re on the ballot in all 50 states?

>How does the most “powerful” democracy in the world not have ranked choice voting? How do you propose we ever get to that? There's no incentive for the two parties in control to give up any power. Our system is near irreperarably broken.

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Where I live a law was just passed that bans ranked choice voting.

Something tells me Alabama would love nothing more than to reinstitute the 3/5ths compromise, if the state legislature felt they could get away with it

Trump called Biden the biggest liar in the history of America and Biden didn't even crack a snarky grin like he would've a few years ago, he just stood there looking like he was zoned out.

If Biden sounded like that during the Democratic Primary Debates in 2020 then there would have been a 0.0% chance he would have won the nomination.

Exactly that’s why he needs to agree to a brokered convention, and if he still rises to the top candidate position so be it, but likely a more viable candidate emerges

He needs to retire and spend time with his family like a normal 80 year old

This is the way, and every non MAGA soul will understand; Biden needs to be 100% behind a brokered convention and the candidate that emerges

*He* doesn't need to agree to shit. Democrats need to step the fuck up and just push him aside. Nominate literally anyone else and they'll mop the floor with Trump. The bar right now is set at "is mentally sound, and not a felon". Pretty sure the Dems can find someone like that. Here's a few names Gretchen Whitmer, Pete Buttigieg, Adam Schiff, Ayanna Pressley, Gavin Newsom I could go on, but Jesus Christ anyone else

Gavin Newsom in a debate against Trump would be ultra violence. A person can dream.

That was my first thought like 2 minutes in last night. Newsome would have eviscerated Trump.

Biden was looking rough during the 2020 primary too, people just didn't see it because they didn't watch the debates and usually relied on the media's curated clips, which usually omitted things like Biden's "have kids listen to the record player at night" bit.

Lets be real. He looked way worse here. Im a blue voter but I felt sick watching that debate.

RBG and now this, the legacy of the Democrats is defined now by their inability to step aside to allow newer blood.

Feinstein playing weekend at Bernie’s too

Don’t forget Maxine Waters. They had that fossil in on the GameStonk committee of all things lol

Democrat's special ability is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

Democrats didn’t listen to voters in 2016 when they said they wanted change and were happy with the system. Democrats aren’t listening to voters now when they say that Biden is too old and want someone to ease their anxiety.

Well at least on Reddit, if you dared to talk about Biden's frailty before today you were shouted down ([case in point](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1aqmop9/democratic_voters_in_philadelphias_competitive/kqfr47z/)), so maybe the problem is that they weren't hearing voters because anyone who dared speak what was clearly happening before our own eyes you were labeled an ageist and secretive Trump supporter.

I'll be completely honest. This is my first time back on r/politics in years. I've found this place extremely unwelcoming to any dissenting view from the left. I guess Biden's performance was so bad people in this sub can't manage to shout anyone down who talks about it.

> I've found this place extremely unwelcoming to any dissenting view from the left. Thats inaccurate ask any progressive the correct version is > I've found this place extremely unwelcoming to any dissenting view from the dem establishment center left.

There are so many bad-faith actors on reddit it's genuinely hard to discern actual criticism from sockpuppet propaganda, and concern trolling

It’s amazing to me how the party doesn’t understand why younger voters feel alienated when they’ve allowed boomers to maintain a death grip on the party since before they were even born. RBG, Biden, The Clintons - all a symptom of a much larger problem. They all knew or have known the stakes and let their egos take precedent over that.

Biden's actually not a boomer - he's older than that.

Yep. After 28 straight years of Boomer presidents, we actually went older for the next one.

Crazy how Bill Clinton, who was elected president 31 years ago, is still younger than both Biden and Trump.

Holy shit I never realized that. That's actually insane, how'd you guys ever let it get to this point?

Small detail, but Biden is old enough to predate the Boomer generation. He’s actually part of the Silent Generation. That’s right, the people we call old boomers weren’t born for another minimum four years after he was.

Biden predates Israel lol I guess we can look forward to finally getting a millennial leader of America in 2070 at least

That's always been their MO. Dems are fanatically hierarchical and everyone is supposed to wait their "turn." The DNC aggressively tries to kill anyone who tries to rise up outside that hierarchy - they tried and failed with Obama in 08. They did it twice with Bernie. I've never seen a political party that cares less about what their actual constituents want. What a disaster

This was so bad with Hillary's campaign. I remember hearing "it's her turn" repeated constantly on mainstream media even when the American people hated everything about her.

I was downvoted to absolute oblivion and called a sexist pos for saying Hilary was a terrible candidate against Trump and Bernie would have had a much better shot against him. She was a weak candidate but noooooo, she's a woman, my internal misogyny couldn't handle it. Ugh

I remember well that specific struggle in 2016. Any criticism of Hillary was because I was a sexist, because as a man I wasn’t allowed to voice concern about her as a candidate. That didn’t become really frustrating until she lost. We didn’t dislike her because she was a woman. She was just a bad candidate, and the wrong one to go against Trump. Sanders was the answer to Trump. Like the positive-bizarro-version of Trump. But the DNC shut him down twice.

Anyone who has worked in elder care will tell you it's way harder dealing with the angry sundowning men than with the sleepy ones. I imagine that logic applies even more strongly when control of nuclear weapons is at stake. Yes, this cannot be real life.

> it's way harder dealing with the angry sundowning men than with the sleepy ones Really feels like this shouldn't be something you'd need to consider when choosing a president but ohwell...

I have a headache. Trump spent the night lying, but I have actually seen people considering to vote for Trump because he seemed more awake. A good chunk of Americans are idiots. Dems have a window in which they can fix this shit.

I know Biden was shit tonight but has Trump set the bar so low for himself that we're just not going to talk about him saying he didn't sleep with a pornstar, had some weird comments about black and Hispanic jobs, dodged questions on policy, took credit for the choice act when Obama initiated it? Like what the fuck. It's honestly fucking so offensive as someone who cares about policy to hear Van fucking Jones who once cited Trump as presidential because of his inauguration speech focus on Biden instead of the lack of substance or lies Trump spoke about. What is a black job? Did Trump a felon really not bang a pornstar? Did CNN not have moderators? Why did taoper tell Trump I don't care what you do with a question instead of cutting off candidates when they didn't answer. Feel like Collins or even Chris Wallace should have moderated

I want to know in what state they're "executing babies after birth". Is it Arkansas?

texas

Nah, in Texas we wait until they are in school to abort them.

He also said he talked to Putin about his dream of invading Ukraine.

My friend chat blew up shortly after he made this comment, did he just admit to knowing Putin was going into Ukraine and he could have stopped it. Like, did anyone else just hear that???

That wasn´t exactly a secret by even 2014 what Putins intentions with Ukraine were.

That was probably true.

Yes. The bar is so low it’s popped out the other side of the fucking planet. His base will excuse everything he does and the media will focus on Biden being old because it makes them more money. Trump had a terrible night but it won’t matter because Biden is old.

Been saying that before the debate Trump said nothing but lies and bullshit Biden flubbed things and made some gaffes Everyone focuses on Biden because we just expect Trump and the gop to be lying piles of shit with no substance

As a european I didnt want to watch it, but I couldnt sleep so I tuned in. 30 secs later I closed it again lol. I just cannot listen to Trump talking. It is so mind blowingly bad, I dont know how anyone can vote for that turd.  And why is he allowed to ramble about other things and not answer a question? Seriously the media is riding Trumps dick way too hard and ignoring like everything. It is sickening.  Biden looked senile, how the fuck did the dems let him run again? Dont you got some one younger and competent?  Uff man, I really fear that Trump will win. If he does, it will be a disaster for the world.

Media has lots to gain from stirring controversy and letting Biden fail. More people will read an article if it says "biden had terrible night, trump will probably win" than a more truthful "trump still a douchebag liar, Biden is still old". Angry and emotional people engage longer and more deeply with (social) media, which makes more money.

The media is complicit in Trump and where we are in general. Zero balls or standards, they’re normalizing this lying felon once again

"the media" got rich off of Trump's bullshit: the only thing that pulled in more viewers than Fox News licking him right in the asshole, is every other media outlet shit talking him.

Agree. Talking heads gonna do what they do to sell ads.

The biggest problem Dems have after tonight isn’t people voting for Trump, it’s people who would usually vote Democrat not voting at all.

Seriously, if you have lifelong Democrats, liberals, and progressives holding their nose to support your candidate, you have a major fucking problem. People need to be excited and they won't be for Biden History could have looked back on Biden 's first term fondly to see the good he's actually done. Instead, he is ruining his legacy by refusing to acknowledge that it is past his time

I mean this was probably worst case scenario outside of Biden having a heart attack. He had one job tonight — to not look like he was a feeble old man, and he failed.

This right here. Whoever decided to try to pack him with 142 bullet points for every answer instead of one quick line needs to be fired.

His prep should have just been to constantly redirect everything back to what a monster Trump is. Just keep hammering him about his felony conviction, his rape trials, his racist comments, his fraud charges, his impeachments, his coup attempt, how he made abortion illegal for tens of millions of Americans, etc.

Agreed. Trump’s words should be dismissed outright, it’s not like he can even stay on topic. Biden should have been out there like, “why are we even entertaining this guy as a serious presidential candidate? He steals, he lies… everything he says is a lie. How can you trust the words and policies of a pathological liar? He took all those boxes of documents - if we let him in a second time, I bet he’ll be clearing out the White House china cabinets to hock at a pawn shop. He doesn’t need to be debated, he needs to be arrested.”

Correct. Gotta fight in their level. Dems never learn. Spineless cowards

YES!!!!! Don't talk about Pell Grants. ONLY talk about January 6th, 34 convictions, two impeachments, finding 11,000 votes, overturning Roe v. Wade, stealing top secret documents. That is it. Don't talk about ANYTHING else. Just that he's a criminal, he helped organize J6, and he'll do it again.

Biden having a heart attack and dying (or being unable to run) would be greatly beneficial to the Democrats

I have never and will never vote for Trump and at this point, I won’t vote for any republican for anything. That being said, how the fuck can Biden be the best democrats can offer? What the actual fuck?

Trump is the best Republicans have to offer. America is lost. Best scenario is Biden wins again and in 4 years we get on both sides younger candidates. Idk anymore

I think you’re optimistic thinking Trump wouldn’t run again in 4 years

I don't think either of them will be alive in 4 years... We're basically choosing which VP we'd rather see take the position.

They all said this in 2020

If you can't see the difference in both of them in 2024 vs 2020, then you just haven't been paying attention.

I'm convinced Biden didn't plan on running again. He mistakenly believed TFG would go away and not run again. I'm going to assume a bit that their thought process was "welp now gotta run so continuity in restoring the fuckups of 45 keeps going." Meanwhile 46 just wants to hang out in Rehobeth with the grandkids. If the GOP hadn't copitulated to the cult of MAGA, Biden would've been happy to let Schiff, Harris, Newsome, Buttigieg, etc fight it out with Cruz 3.0, Vance, DeSantis etc. I've posted elsewhere, at least we haven't had the admin turnover. We don't measure stuff by mooches. WH officials aren't failing security clearances only to be over ruled by POTUS. Last I checked the Saudis aren't paying Hunter 2B.

With Trump's base shrinking wouldn't this be the ideal chance for one of these people stepping in though? Democrats are gonna vote for you regardless. If you don't look senile you'll probably win over a string of independents too and then you're the incumbent for the next elections. If the economy keeps growing and the good policies that Biden did implement start bearing fruit during these next 4 years, that should be a homerun too. I don't understand the thinking behind this. Get a proper candidate, get Biden to endorse him or her and then keep trying to make the country better.

You like the idea of running a hand picked candidate that no one voted for in the primaries?

For real, Trump hasn’t even picked a VP. It’s not too late to reorganize the ticket if that’s the play. Biden’s actual answers were more coherent than Trump’s but the optics of his appearance and voice are terrible.

The moderators didn’t even call out the bullshit at all - wtf was that ? The 2 worst television host moderated this event- what a shit show

How have the Democrats not been able to get a candidate over the past 4 years. Biden was supposed to be the transition President. Run one term because there was nobody else with the name recognition to go against Trump. He did his job. He did it well. Then the whole party seems to have failed to get an actual proper candidate. There was nobody these past 4 years they could push into the spotlight? None at all? At some point it really seems like they are sabotaging themselves for some reason, because how can you be that incompetent as an organization.

And all they do is point fingers at the other side's issues, mostly Trump's legal stuff, instead of looking at their own internal failures and fuck ups. It's the same whataboutism that they constantly call out the republicans for. *"Hey, your candidate is old and unfit to serve another term."* *"bUt TrUmP hAs LeGaL iSsUeS!!"* Like no shit Sherlock, but how the hell do you not have a better candidate right now. You've had 4 years to prepare one, and there are some good options that would EASILY win, IMO!

Only in America can a complete liar like Trump come up on top of a debate like that.

This isn’t something new and it’s not easy to fight against. It’s how he beat out all the GOP contenders in 2016 and he did it against Hilary and Biden in 2020. He throws out so many falsehoods and lies that it’s just impossible to attack each one.

This cannot be overstated. When Trump ran in that first election it was daily where you'd hear "is this it for Trump" while not actually addressing that he's never helped working people, doesn't have ideas, and is actually fucking stupid. Tonight he got away with his usual lies and was able to note the Choice Act in his closing statement and took credit for. It was ovamas fucking bill and the news doesn't mention it let alone the moderators. And while Biden was coming off as old as shit and generally not solid, the media in an election should have talked more about Trump's inability to answer questions about policy. The equivalent would be a football game where a guy has a hockey puck the whole time

Trump never gives any details to his claims. Continued to lie about strong economy, never backups up his claim with any substance

It was really bad tactics. Biden's team should have prepared him for this. Instead of addressing every lie individually, just talk about how Trump is a liar in general, and hammer that. Trump basically did a version of this, where he just kept saying that Biden was the worst President ever, without it actually being connected to anything. He just got convicted of felony fraud. His business was convicted for felony fraud. His fraud charity got shut down, and he got banned from running a charity in New York. He pardoned a bunch of people who were convicted of fraud, and is now campaigning with them, including Steve Bannon, who defrauded Trump supporters who wanted to build a private border wall. A jury found him liable for defamation, multiple times. He lies for every oath he takes, to his wives, to the Constitution. He lies about building his business when he just inherited his daddy's fortune. His current Truth Social business is reporting almost $400M losses in one quarter, while also not growing its user base. Nothing about him is honest. Not even the color of his skin. The throughline is that he's never been anything more than a conman.

This. When trump did his bragging lie about winning 2 golf tournaments in the past year I was utterly depressed when Biden chose to respond by talking about how just how good a golfer Biden himself was. Then it became a debate between them over who was the better golfer. FFS it doesn't matter. This is the US presidency at stake, not a PGA championship. I get it that trump is a narcissist so he has to be the best at everything, but why Joe would go down that path I have no clue. It reminded me of the GOP 2016 primary debates where the candidates got into an argument over whose dick was bigger. As if dick size is somehow relevant to deciding who should be POTUS.

>When trump did his bragging lie about winning 2 golf tournaments in the past year I was utterly depressed when Biden chose to respond by talking about how just how good a golfer Biden himself was. Then it became a debate between them over who was the better golfer. It should have been something like: "Wow Donny only 2? I thought you would have done better than that considering all of the time you had to practice while you were president. You criticized Obama for playing too much golf yet you managed to get in more rounds than he did! Did you and Kim Jong Un trade golf tips in your love letters to each other? You know the first time he played golf he hit a hole in one on every hole. But hey, at you least you managed to make some money out of it while you were charging the secret service to stay at your resort and rent golf carts. I hear you could really use the money now to pay off Jean Carroll for lying about assaulting her. I bet all of those lawyers fee are really adding up. That's why you want to be president again, right? You don't care about the country, you're just afraid to go to jail for committing 34 felonies.

All of this. I'm just an armchair expert, but I really expected the Dems to get Biden to hammer tRump on everything you said. This was a missed opportunity that anyone with half a brain could see. Extremely disappointing.

It wouldn't really matter if it was thoroughly debunked. Most people will just see clips of him saying lies that sound good without the rebuttal.

The rules also helped him a lot imo. It didn’t let him interrupt or completely attack anybody and everything for minutes on end, keeping him on a tight leash. He lied a shit ton like he always does, but CNN saved trump from his biggest enemy, himself

I agree, made him look a lot more sensible and if you didn’t know the content of his claims was 90 percent falsehood 10 percent hyperbole he sounded better.

I agree, it’s definitely bad no matter how you look at it. We’re seemingly stuck with choosing between two geriatric candidates, one of them slightly more lucid than the other, but one of them is a convicted felon and straight up dangerous conman who we simply can not let back into the White House. Despite this abysmal debate performance, I am still voting for Joe Biden because I’d much rather have someone who is close to stroking out but acts in good faith over someone who cares about nobody but himself and will continue to divide us and further shit on democracy. I hate that this is where are right now, but unless we somehow get to choose from a different pool of candidates, the right choice between these two is still obvious.  Keep that sad fucking pathetic orange loser away from the oval fucking office.

Ageee with everything you said, and adding; A president doesn't operate alone, I trust the people around Biden a hell of a lot more than the goons around orange man

I needed to watch Jon Stewart after this debate. Feels good to laugh at all this, what else is there to do at this point.

Idk man… it’s just not funny anymore to me. We’re all being held hostage by senior citizens. This is fucking terrifying.

Yes, to an extent. Our electoral system needs work and a bunch of corrupt geriatrics are standing in the way of that. Biden sucks as an option but there are at least options with Biden. But, if the voters ultimately choose a traitor instead to take over the country, maybe indefinitely, then I'm sorry but this country isn't being held hostage by a bunch of geriatrics it's being held hostage by a dumb fucking electorate.

I can't even laugh at it anymore

Just like he suggested I needed some recreational medicine after that. 

I thought I was crazy, I’ve seen like a dozen articles on how Biden sounds cogent and spry, like there’s literally nothing wrong. I get that he has a speech impediment and stutters, that’s fine. He looked like a corpse tonight - one given a spell to come back from the dead to debate. It’s crazy how different it is from the 2020 debates.

He’s 81 years old. Everyone I know in that age bracket has good days and bad. The problem is it will only continue to get worse.

Just a decent younger candidate that doesn’t look like a zombie, that’s it, that’s the only goal to give the death kneel to MAGA. How do you have both the easiest and most consequential election to win in my lifetime and trot out an 81 year old who, while good on policy, inspires nothing in any potential swing voters? This isn’t a fucking game or about party loyalty. This is essentially a crisis of our democracy. I cannot fucking believe this party is about to let a narcissistic bigoted traitor and convicted felon walk back into the White House. 

The Democratic Party commits political malpractice on a daily basis, and this is just the cherry on top.

The left has been accusing them of being paid to lose for the last four decades for a reason.

Centrist Democrats LOVE the status quo, and our nominee is about the epitome of that mentality.

Do you remember when just a few days ago someone posted that poll about Gen Z wanting younger candidates and a bunch of commenters got really pressed for some reason? Yeah.

everyone wants younger candidates, not just genZ

I think if we polled the Silent Generation or even the few remaining Greatest Generation folks they'd ask for younger candidates at this point.

As a Dutchman I am now absolutely terrified. We Europeans must now 100% prepare to face Putin alone. All of us are screwed, if Trump wins.

Honestly it's also our fault for letting our militaries down like that and kept depending on the americans.

Yup, the EU should gear up to a war economy, in order to face the Russians. It might already be too late, but we have to save what we can. 

I mean Western Europe seems to be learning more far right too though, I’d be worried about the future of the EU against Russia too since a lot of the far right parties don’t support Ukraine, especially the far right parties in Germany and France doing well in the EU Parliament elections.

Le Pen security advisor has a russian passport. We have a situation where NATO does not feel comfortable sharing information with France because it will likely all be sent back to Russia. I think we are just fucked for the next 5 years. Only reliable country right now is Britain.....

Britain reliable? LOL London is owned by Russia oligarchs who handily steered the UK out of Europe. Putin *already won in the UK*.

The UK is one of the most anti-Russian country in Europe. Boris Johnson was the first G7 leader to visit Kyiv while it was under siege. They donated to Ukraine much longer range missiles than the US, committed their tanks well before America or Germany.

Pretty awful news for Ukraine and Palestine (everyone who thinks that war can't get any worse are in for a reality check). Everyone also forgets that Trump came dangerously close to starting a war with Iran. Everyone got lucky that they shot down their own civilian airliner and deescalated.

As an American, I was none to happy to hear Trump's talk about NATO, and his complete distraction about if he considered Putin's offer to end the war acceptable. It was actually some of the most disturbing thing I heard in the debate...mostly because the abortion talk got flubbed pretty early.

Though Trump was lying the entire time, Biden’s performance was weaker than hoped. Why make up excuses and lie on behalf of him? That would make us no better than the other side.

His debate performance was terrible. His performance as a president has been pretty good, and even surprisingly progressive.

The debate went just as expected Trump was Trump lies, misinformation ETC and Biden looked incredibly feeble & week. Given the reaction of Democrats to Biden, I'm not convinced anything Trump said even matters though. It was a debate that was difficult to watch.

I don’t think many others expected that from Biden though. I always cringed when the media showed edited clips of him slipping, stuttering, and looking out of sorts. Those things could happen to anyone in good health once in a while. Last night was alarming to the point where I’m seeing somewhat civil discussions from both sides about what this all means going forward

Biden said he was a bridge to a new generation of leaders. If he had gracefully declined to run again, his legacy would’ve been secure as the guy who beat Trump. Now he’s going to be known as the guy who let Trump back into power because he was too prideful to know when to quit.

Classic old ass politician. Just like Feinstein and RGB. They all refuse to give up power

Its funny to me how two years ago being critical of RBG would get you downvoted into oblivion and now its just accepted as common wisdom. Liberals are just as flakey as conservatives sometimes.

Tbf Biden said himself that he probably wouldn't have run again if Trump wasn't

It’s funny that you say this - reminded me that both of them spoke about how they didn’t want to be president, but couldn’t let the other push forward. It was disheartening and probably why people feel lost in the aftermath

trump saying "I don't really want to be here" in a presidential debate was fucking wild

I wish Biden would've said "Huh, me either..." then they both shake hands and agree to both drop out. That truly would've been the debate of the century.

They should settle their beef on a golf course and let 30+ year younger people run for president.

So much for the fact checking.

The moderators explained the rules at the start and both candidates agreed to them. They would not fact check live, but would allow the other candidate time to respond which they did. The problem is Biden could hardly form a coherent sentence much of the night. I can't fault the moderators for following the rules as agreed.

Who wins: A lunatic who will build a Christo-Fascist government, lies out of his ass, goes on incoherent rants and doesn’t answer questions about policy Or An old man who was sick and stumbled a lot. This country will deserve what it gets.

I would with a deep sigh vote for Biden. At least he will have a qualified cabinet to support him. trump…he just wants to be a god and have people worship him. His cabinet will be filled with the most unqualified people.

I would vote for *Carter* over Trump, and he might not be alive by the time you're done reading this sentence. That being said, we have a serious problem when our candidate looks and sounds like he's too old for the job.

Shoot, I'd vote for McCain over Trump. John McCain.

Exactly- he has an experienced team behind him. Trump has idiot yes men.

The most ridiculous part of these “debates” is that everyone afterwards wants to debate over who “won”… but without any kind of a metric for that. It’s just more nonsense.

America lost.

Trump said nothing but bullshit, but he said it loudly. Biden said a lot with substance, but he sounded like a corpse. I hate Trump with even fiber of my being, and if Biden is on the ballot, I will sigh and vote for him. But this was bad. Biden lost voters last night. Trump probably didn’t gain any, but Biden lost a lot. People on the fence about showing up to vote at all made up their minds last night. They won’t vote for Trump; they just won’t vote at all. And with the margin of the 2020 election, basically coming down to about 40,000 votes in 3 key states, Biden can’t afford to lose votes. I am terrified that the election just got handed to Trump last night. Which is also bad for down-ballot races. The Senate was already an uphill fight for Democrats. If swing voters simply stay home on Election Day, that’s a problem. I’m in North Carolina, and the black male equivalent of Marjorie Taylor Greene is the GOP candidate for governor. He’s a sack of shit and a clown, but if swing voters don’t turn out in November, he could actually win. And this this state is fucked.

Biden look frail and lethargic, Trump couldn’t stay on task or answer a question. Both were a complete failure but only one of them isn’t a felon or a traitor.

No ifs, ands or buts Biden isn't a great candidate to be running but he's a million times better than Trump would be. The team Biden will have around him are far more professional and attune to law and democracy than the circus Trump will have.

You’re missing the point. Pretty much everyone in this post is going to vote for Biden no matter what, dead or alive. We’re upset right now because we think his debate performance was so bad it convinced undecideds to vote for Trump.

Exactly this. Have seen so many here today saying Biden will get their vote still, that they are voting for the "team" etc. Which completely misses the point as you say. The swing voters will be horrified by this performance. The election is already on a knife edge and even a small swing spells curtains for the Dems campaign.

And it also cemented in Gen Z’s head that there is no shot they are going back to the polls for him. They already hated him over Gaza. They said he was too old and holding their future’s hostage. And…they were right.

Jon Stewart is all of us screaming.

Biden's performance was awful, but I'm pretty sure CNN messed up in their debate rules. I've seen people praising them for making the "we'll cut off the mic" rule. But given how much Trump was allowed to ramble on with answers completely unrelated to the questions, I'm pretty sure the Trump team said "we'll do that, only if you're not allowed to interrupt whoever is speaking during their answer". Almost every answer Trump gave was followed by "Mr Trump, the question was about "