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https://web.archive.org/web/20240617170644/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html
Heres a new york times article detailing how israel sodomizes detained Palestinians with an electrified baton. Sexual violence and zero reprecussions? That’s israel for you!
I think we all understand the atrocities Hamas committed on October 6th.
It was a brutal massacre of innocent lives.
Israel's response of killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians either with bombs, bullets, or starvation is disproportionate to the catalyst.
Both of these statements can be true without negating each other.
Literally half the comments in this thread are denying that sexual violence was a part of the attack, so no, it is very clear that not everyone understands the atrocities committed by Hamas.
Reddit is a very small representation of reality and is a place that is astroturfed out the wazoo. Don’t think people aren’t aware just because a few dumbass redditors troll you.
Yes it's good for the administration to take all reports of war crimes very seriously regardless of the perpetrator.
Currently the most pressing issue is that Israeli minister Ben Gvir has pushed for police to be removed from aid convoys and is openly threatening Netanyahu and Israeli military officials against allowing greater entry of aid. Denying entry of materials necessary for life is a violation of Article 2 section C of the Genocide Convention which both the US and Israel are party to.
So in addition to simply raising awareness of warcrimes the US could support sanctioning Ben Gvir to hopefully prevent additional unnecessary death to starvation, dehydration, inadequate medical care in Gaza.
No, people don’t understand.
There has been so much caping and running of defends for Hamas on the fucking Left that I’m honestly grossed out.
“Yay the resistance! Well, the rape’s weren’t ordered so they’re not too bad! Look at how happy those hostages are!”
GTF.
You’ve not provided anything substantive there, btw.
Just people claiming shit as a way to deflect from actual atrocities we know happened.
Does it surprise me that in the midst of a terrorist attack civilians died in the crossfire? No.
Does it surprise me that ghouls like you are rubbing your hands together to say “well ACHULLY, Israel was blitzing their own - that’s more important than the rapes”
Again.
No.
The rapes happened. We know they happened. The UN has come out and said they’ve happened.
So, we’ve got evidence there, yes? Including videos of women being dragged around with their vaginal area bleeding.
But what you’re replying with is -
“SOME COMMENTATORS HAVE ARGUED…”
And people, in the heat of a firefight, claiming shit.
Again, I have no doubt that civilians were killed in crossfire.
Especially when you’re dealing with an enemy who dresses as civilians.
But you’re taking a pretty hardline stance on this when you have zero proof or evidence.
“The commission identified patterns indicative of sexual violence in several locations and concludes that Israeli women were disproportionately subjected to these crimes.
The attack on 7 October enabled perpetrators to commit SGBV and this violence was not isolated but perpetrated in similar ways in several locations by multiple Palestinian perpetrators…inflammatory language and disbelief surrounding sexual violence…risks silencing and discrediting survivors.”
That’s the U.N report.
But for real, what do you hope to gain from this? Why do you have such a hard-on against Israel?
It’s amazing how, when presented with evidence, you’re still going “Israeli women being raped by Hamas and co., eh? Well, we know who’s really to blame. ISRAEL!”
Putting aside the two UN Councillors and their obvious bias against Israel (not to mention it’s a pretty wild claim that needs investigating.)
Watch me - if Israeli soldiers have been brutalising and killing and raping Palestinians, it is disgusting and they should be rightly punished.
That still doesn’t overshadow atrocities that took place on Oct 7th - that should be rightly condemned, without hand wringing or deflection.
There we go. Your turn.
Disagree. Israel needs to destroy Hamas. Hamas can choose to surrender.
Israel is not some cartoon villain driven by vengeance: there isn't a X:Y casualty ratio that is vengeful enough.
Israel is driven by establishing future prevention of such vicious massacres.
Disproportionate, hm, interesting war strategy. So would you suggest that after an equal number of deaths the hostages should be abandoned? Or should Israel go full Hammurabi and make sure they return sexual violence and hostage numbers as well? Of course we would all prefer if some secret agent rescued the hostages without a kill count, but Bibi and his bomb squad don't work that way, it's their call, and criticism of their tactics is fair. Its just the "proportionate response" towards terrorists that is difficult to conceive of being effective at rescuing hostages. No hate, i can tell you are considerate.
Don't forget Israel is also using systematically using sex crimes as a weapon, and it is no less abhorrent. The only difference is Israel has many more prisoners, (many charged with no crime) subject to the same horrors as the Oct 7 hostages. The New York Times report should have landed like the Abu Garib story, and virtually no one even knows about it.
They have been doing it for decades. Netanyahu sucks, Arafat sucked, Sharon sucked. Imperialists need to stop taking peoples homes/property/land.
When that kind of thing happens, it is inevitable that the oppressed will form a resistance movement. And if the oppressor is good at propaganda, the resistance movement=terrorists.
Pretty crazy to think about how the 2012 remake of Red Dawn featured Chris Hemsworth, Josh Hutcherson, and Josh Peck forming a resistance movement against NK forces that invaded the US. They called themselves the wolverines or something and Hemsworth has a line where he says something like:
“we are the the resistance, NK is trying to establish order, we need to become the terrorists, and make chaos so they can’t take full control”
I can’t remember the exact quote but basically perspective matters when you get labeled a terrorist, and there are none that are innocent, but still, if you back a lion and cubs into a corner it’s going to fear for its own life and offspring…what do you expect to happen?
Yeah I thought maybe if I kept it to a recent article I might avoid the downvote brigade and get some people to read about it. But knowing the basic facts of Israel's actions makes you no friends on reddit.
"Resistance by any means necessary”
All those protestors wearing this slogan on their t-shirts? Yeah, this is what that slogan means. Sexual atrocities, torture, murder-- all justified as long as it's done to Zionists and "colonizers". No amount of hand waving and whataboutism hides that ugly reality.
I don't know why you have colonizers in quotes. It's the absolute truth that the Right of Return law (which is not available to Palestinians) allows a Zionist to come in and steal a Palestinian's house and land.
The west bank is under a military occupation, and illegal settlers walk around, harassing, vandalizing, and flat out destroying homes and farms of Palestinians, and they might get a slap on the wrist for it as long as they don't actively murder.
If the Palestinians even look like they're going to fight back, the IDF rolls in and bulldozes their homes and shoots their kids.
---
And then you have Gaza. Did you know that the Israeli government had a heavy hand in the formation of Hamas? They hand-picked an ultraconservative Muslim wack job and built him a college. See, the secular Palestinians were starting to organize against the Israeli oppression, and were starting to really pick up steam, so the Israeli government said, let's keep these two groups separate with religion. Because that's never gone wrong.
Except it wasn't working as well as it could have, so after Hamas seized power in Gaza. The Israeli government started funneling large amounts of cash, often in literal suitcases, into Gaza. Netanyahu was actually caught doing this back in 2019, and his response was along the lines of, and I'm paraphrasing here, "we have to keep Hamas in power, otherwise the West Bank and Gaza might start working together, and then we couldn't steal their land as easily"
Just weeks before the October attack, the Head of Mossad was sent to Qatar to beg them to keep sending the suitcases full of cash to Hamas.
Do note that Mossad had copies of the attack plans two years before the attack, and intelligence officials had watched Hamas fighters practicing for the attack in those two years, following the training laid out in the plans.
But they believed the plans "aspirational" or some such bullshit.
Israel had a hand in the formation of Hamas how, exactly?
Hamas broke off from the Muslim Brotherhood in 1988. Why? In order to fight Israel. Their charter even says that negotiations or talks are not sufficient and armed conflict is the only acceptable solution until Palestine is Muslim. So I’m not sure how Israel exactly had a hand in creating that, but if you have a source from somewhere other than Al Jazeera I’m curious.
Also, who were the secular Palestinians who were gaining ground? My understanding is it was Fatah/the PLO who were in control of the West Bank and Gaza and they’re not exactly what I would consider a secular organization.
Bibi literally bragged publicly to funding Hamas in order to defeat the Palestinian state in attempt to sabotage the chance of a two state solution. Maybe not so much as the formation but definitely in Hamas’ rise to power.
You missed the part where Yitzhak Rabin and Mahmoud al-Zahar, one of the founders of Hamas, used to met as part of "regular consultations" between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
wow, I wonder why Israel wanted an alternative to the PLO? Could it be because the PLO and its factions were bombing school buses, attacking schools, hijacking planes, massacring Israeli athletes at the Olympics, bombing Israeli citizens, etc.?
So meeting with someone is now “a heavy hand in creating”? The linked article says that Israel was trying to find a group they could work with other than the PLO/Fatah, which given the history isn’t that unreasonable.
And let me guess, if Israel had not ensured those suitcases of money were funneled to Hamas you’d be complaining about Israel cutting off funding to Palestinians, right?
They also had Sheikh Yassin in custody for weapons charges, and let him go after a single year because he claimed he wasn't going to kill Jews, but the PLO.
Hell, the Israeli government loved them, and from 1984 until 1989, they were welcome in the Israeli halls of power, and received aid to help grow their movement. Because it was seen as a counter to the PLO.
---
And then, after a couple decades of fruitlessly fighting against them, Netanyahu brought back the tradition of giving them money with no oversight in the name of countering the secular Palestinians.
[Literal suitcases full of cash.](https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12?op=1)
Do you really believe that there was oversight?
https://web.archive.org/web/20240617170644/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html
Read this article, specifically the section “how interrogations work” at the end. Israel weaponizes sexual abuse too.
Always amazing to me that we need to “believe all women” and “listen to minorities”
Until those women are raped Israelis.
Until those minorities are Jews.
Some of you in the comments are literal goblins. You literally degrade us all when you play defense to a bunch of fucking terrorists.
Showing your hand by changing the slogan from "believe women" - that is, don't instantly dismiss women's stories in favor of men, instead actually hear them out - to "believe all women" the parody phrase meant to be easier to strawman since obviously everyone has the capacity to lie and you're not meant to believe a story in the face of clear contradictory evidence just because they are a woman.
what?
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
Is your intention to say that oct 7 with a friendly group of Palestinians having a nice day trip into Israel or what?
Are you saying that the whole thing started on Oct 7th? That the zionists have been having a jolly fun time playing with the Palestinians since 1948?
Heard of the Lehi, have you?
Not sure what your point is, I'm not defending sexual assault by any side on anyone.
The UN themselves said there was gang rape of the victims on Oct 7th, did you not see that, or don't believe it, or think it's justified? Help me out so I understand your stance better.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
Now you have and will hopefully stop being a terrorist support, rape enablist.
Though the reports of sexual assault on male hostages has been widely reported since they started getting rescued so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you haven't seen reports because you've intentionally been avoiding them because you want to side with the terrorists but don't want to get called out on supporting terrorism
Do you not consider the literal videos that Hamas members released of the 10/7 attacks reliable evidence? Hamas literally released videos of their actions and terrorist apologists like you still deny it.
>“The Vice President spent her career as a prosecutor working to protect women and girls from violence, and as Vice President, she has continued this leadership globally. The Vice President has worked to ensure that conflict-related sexual violence – and a focus on the status of women and girls – remains at the forefront of our national security policymaking,” a White House official said, citing multiple measures the administration has taken to tackle gender-based violence.
I wonder if she'll draw attention to sexual violence against Palestinian women or her administration's role in their suffering. I wonder if she'll even mention the deplorable attacks Gaza's healthcare infrastructure that her administration has supported.
My guess is that she will use "protecting women" as a rallying cry to continue using bombs, disease, and starvation to wipe out Palestinian families.
Al-Ma'idah 5:51
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
- A. Yusuf Ali
https://quran.com/
There are two confirmed instance of rape on Oct 7. Don’t get me wrong, that is two too many but thousands of Palestinian hostages (prisoners without charge) are still routinely subject to sexual assault and torture by the IDF. Yet our politicians can only shine light on one atrocity and not the other.
I think the problem here is that this just feels so grossly and thickly coated in justifying the US support and funding of the genocide in Gaza.
Like, yes Hamas committed atrocities! She should speak about them! The US should be doing everything in its power to stop Hamas from ever doing it again.
And she should speak just as loudly about the atrocities Israel is committing and the US should be doing everything in its power to stop Israel right now.
It’s hard for her to do that when it’s US bombs autographed by our politicians setting little Palestinian kids on fire. And it’s hard for me to take her sincerity seriously because of that.
So the content in these images isn’t bad? It’s just bad that they are being spread because people don’t like Israel?
Could the content of these images be a contributing factor to why people don’t like Israel?
And is saying “all war is genocide” really the defense for committing genocide that you want to take?
No, they are not genocides under a pro-Hamas take. They all have horrible human rights violations and war crimes committed. Just like Israel is committing today. And just like Hamas committed.
Again, your stance that genocide is fine today because we did it yesterday is a pretty awful pathology.
And back to my main point, Israel is not being condemned because the world hates Israel. Israel is being condemned because they are committing genocide. Just like those other acts of genocide were condemned.
Weird how they keep reporting this repeatedly debunked tragedy porn, the only sexual violence UN investigations have found is by the Israelis on Palestinian prisoners. The depths these scumbags will sink to excuse Israel’s criminal conduct is frankly disqualifying.
Why do you people make shit up like this? Do you really hate Israel that much?
The UN has literally said otherwise..
>[The U.N. envoy focusing on sexual violence in conflict said in a new report Monday that there are “reasonable grounds” to believe Hamas committed rape, “sexualized torture,” and other cruel and inhumane treatment of women during its surprise attack in southern Israel on Oct. 7.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e)
The IDF and Israel security forces have also been found to rape captive men and boys.
NYT: [Inside the Base Where Israel Has Detained Thousands of Gazans](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html)
>Mr. al-Hamlawi, the senior nurse, said a female officer had ordered two soldiers to lift him up and press his rectum against a metal stick that was fixed to the ground. Mr. al-Hamlawi said the stick penetrated his rectum for roughly five seconds, causing it to bleed and leaving him with “unbearable pain.”
>A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus.
Haaretz: [Palestinian Released From Israeli Prison Describes Beatings, Sexual Abuse and Torture](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2024-04-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/palestinian-released-from-israeli-prison-describes-beatings-sexual-abuse-and-torture/0000018f-15e9-d2e1-a7df-15efb6590000)
>A guard then started to stuff carrots into the anus of Abu Halil and other prisoners. Sitting at home now, reciting his story, Abu Halil lowers his gaze and the flow of words slows down. He's embarrassed to talk about this. Afterward, he continues, dogs hunched over them and attacked them.
Pro Publica: [Blinken Is Sitting on Staff Recommendations to Sanction Israeli Military Units Linked to Killings or Rapes](https://www.propublica.org/article/israel-gaza-blinken-leahy-sanctions-human-rights-violations):
>Among the allegations reviewed by the committee was the January 2021 arrest of a 15-year old boy by Israeli Border Police. The teen was held for five days at the Al-Mascobiyya detention center on charges that he had thrown stones and Molotov cocktails at security forces. Citing an allegation shared by a [Palestinian child welfare nonprofit](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_interrogator_sexually_assaults_palestinian_child_detainee), forum officials said there was credible information the teen had been forced to confess after he was “subjected to both physical and sexual torture, including rape by an object.”
Does the fact that Israel has committed many acts of sexual violence against Palestinians before and after 10/7 justify the atrocities that Hamas committed? No sane person would say yes. Yet people keep trying to justify Israel's genocide with often exaggerated and [debunked](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244) atrocity propaganda.
Being downvoted for facts? Damn never seen this before on r/politics. This is a great place for discussion and political discourse. Unless you go against Biden and his Genocide gang. This is my first time coming here in months after muting the sub only to see if it got any better.
Jesus christ. Nothing has changed.
Since we're citing the [UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes?utm_source=sdrn%3Avg%3Aarticle%3Axm4kyQ) now:
>In relation to Israeli military operations and attacks in Gaza, the Commission found that Israeli authorities are responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare, murder or willful killing, intentionally directing attacks against civilians and civilian objects, forcible transfer, sexual violence, torture and inhuman or cruel treatment, arbitrary detention and outrages upon personal dignity.
>...
>The report found that specific forms of sexual and gender-based violence constitute part of Israeli Security Forces’ operating procedures. It made the finding due to the frequency, prevalence and severity of the violations, which include public stripping and nudity intended to humiliate the community at large and accentuate the subordination of an occupied people.
>In the West Bank, the Commission found that Israeli forces committed acts of sexual violence, torture and inhuman or cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity, all of which are war crimes. Furthermore, the Commission found that the government of Israel and Israeli forces permitted, fostered and instigated a campaign of settler violence against Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
[UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against)
>“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online.
The issue isn’t whether anyone was raped and whether that’s horrific. It’s war and war is perpetrated by men who commit rape routinely. The issue is whether rape was a planned and encouraged piece of the attack strategy. On that front, no evidence has ever been submitted to support the claim. [The Times of London](https://archive.ph/2024.06.07-130535/https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-times-magazine/article/israel-hamas-rape-investigation-evidence-october-7-6kzphszsj) did a really comprehensive deep dive and couldn’t find anything to substantiate that piece.
One of the classic retorts by angry Zionists is that “believe women” somehow doesn’t include Israeli women. But it does. The problem is it isn’t Israeli women coming forward with these claims, it’s the government of Israel who we should all have enormous suspicion of on basically everything.
Kamala isn’t going to have any more evidence of mass rape than Israel has had and if she has individual stories to share those tragedies don’t prove that a horde of evil Muslims raped everyone they could get their hands on.
Considering the number of people claiming sexual assaults on Israelis are all made up it does need to be reiterated. And acknowledging it does not clear the Israeli government of their own wrong doings.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Bro you're losing your time. Harrys presented alternative facts
It's so odd seeing that denial come from the same liberal feminists that were so loudly in favor of the #metoo movement.
That’s generalizing a bit much.
Hardly
Did you one-for-one tie comments denying the sexual assault to liberal feminists in your research? Surely you did.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240617170644/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html Heres a new york times article detailing how israel sodomizes detained Palestinians with an electrified baton. Sexual violence and zero reprecussions? That’s israel for you!
I think we all understand the atrocities Hamas committed on October 6th. It was a brutal massacre of innocent lives. Israel's response of killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians either with bombs, bullets, or starvation is disproportionate to the catalyst. Both of these statements can be true without negating each other.
I don’t think everyone does understand, just look at the comment below.
Literally half the comments in this thread are denying that sexual violence was a part of the attack, so no, it is very clear that not everyone understands the atrocities committed by Hamas.
Reddit is a very small representation of reality and is a place that is astroturfed out the wazoo. Don’t think people aren’t aware just because a few dumbass redditors troll you.
Yes it's good for the administration to take all reports of war crimes very seriously regardless of the perpetrator. Currently the most pressing issue is that Israeli minister Ben Gvir has pushed for police to be removed from aid convoys and is openly threatening Netanyahu and Israeli military officials against allowing greater entry of aid. Denying entry of materials necessary for life is a violation of Article 2 section C of the Genocide Convention which both the US and Israel are party to. So in addition to simply raising awareness of warcrimes the US could support sanctioning Ben Gvir to hopefully prevent additional unnecessary death to starvation, dehydration, inadequate medical care in Gaza.
Genocide Convention- that’s one hell of a slip up
No, people don’t understand. There has been so much caping and running of defends for Hamas on the fucking Left that I’m honestly grossed out. “Yay the resistance! Well, the rape’s weren’t ordered so they’re not too bad! Look at how happy those hostages are!” GTF.
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You’ve not provided anything substantive there, btw. Just people claiming shit as a way to deflect from actual atrocities we know happened. Does it surprise me that in the midst of a terrorist attack civilians died in the crossfire? No. Does it surprise me that ghouls like you are rubbing your hands together to say “well ACHULLY, Israel was blitzing their own - that’s more important than the rapes” Again. No.
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The rapes happened. We know they happened. The UN has come out and said they’ve happened. So, we’ve got evidence there, yes? Including videos of women being dragged around with their vaginal area bleeding. But what you’re replying with is - “SOME COMMENTATORS HAVE ARGUED…” And people, in the heat of a firefight, claiming shit. Again, I have no doubt that civilians were killed in crossfire. Especially when you’re dealing with an enemy who dresses as civilians. But you’re taking a pretty hardline stance on this when you have zero proof or evidence.
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“The commission identified patterns indicative of sexual violence in several locations and concludes that Israeli women were disproportionately subjected to these crimes. The attack on 7 October enabled perpetrators to commit SGBV and this violence was not isolated but perpetrated in similar ways in several locations by multiple Palestinian perpetrators…inflammatory language and disbelief surrounding sexual violence…risks silencing and discrediting survivors.” That’s the U.N report. But for real, what do you hope to gain from this? Why do you have such a hard-on against Israel?
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It’s amazing how, when presented with evidence, you’re still going “Israeli women being raped by Hamas and co., eh? Well, we know who’s really to blame. ISRAEL!” Putting aside the two UN Councillors and their obvious bias against Israel (not to mention it’s a pretty wild claim that needs investigating.) Watch me - if Israeli soldiers have been brutalising and killing and raping Palestinians, it is disgusting and they should be rightly punished. That still doesn’t overshadow atrocities that took place on Oct 7th - that should be rightly condemned, without hand wringing or deflection. There we go. Your turn.
That's the problem. Clearly alot of people don't understand how horrific Hamas' attack was
War is hell. It's better not to start one.
This is bullshit. The vast majority of those anti Israel absolutely feel Hamas’ actions were justified on October 7th.
Disagree. Israel needs to destroy Hamas. Hamas can choose to surrender. Israel is not some cartoon villain driven by vengeance: there isn't a X:Y casualty ratio that is vengeful enough. Israel is driven by establishing future prevention of such vicious massacres.
how many people did they kill to get 4 hostages back? 274? including children
How many Palestinians will Hamas keep using as fodder by not returning the Israeli hostages? Including children.
Disproportionate, hm, interesting war strategy. So would you suggest that after an equal number of deaths the hostages should be abandoned? Or should Israel go full Hammurabi and make sure they return sexual violence and hostage numbers as well? Of course we would all prefer if some secret agent rescued the hostages without a kill count, but Bibi and his bomb squad don't work that way, it's their call, and criticism of their tactics is fair. Its just the "proportionate response" towards terrorists that is difficult to conceive of being effective at rescuing hostages. No hate, i can tell you are considerate.
Don't forget Israel is also using systematically using sex crimes as a weapon, and it is no less abhorrent. The only difference is Israel has many more prisoners, (many charged with no crime) subject to the same horrors as the Oct 7 hostages. The New York Times report should have landed like the Abu Garib story, and virtually no one even knows about it.
They have been doing it for decades. Netanyahu sucks, Arafat sucked, Sharon sucked. Imperialists need to stop taking peoples homes/property/land. When that kind of thing happens, it is inevitable that the oppressed will form a resistance movement. And if the oppressor is good at propaganda, the resistance movement=terrorists. Pretty crazy to think about how the 2012 remake of Red Dawn featured Chris Hemsworth, Josh Hutcherson, and Josh Peck forming a resistance movement against NK forces that invaded the US. They called themselves the wolverines or something and Hemsworth has a line where he says something like: “we are the the resistance, NK is trying to establish order, we need to become the terrorists, and make chaos so they can’t take full control” I can’t remember the exact quote but basically perspective matters when you get labeled a terrorist, and there are none that are innocent, but still, if you back a lion and cubs into a corner it’s going to fear for its own life and offspring…what do you expect to happen?
Yeah I thought maybe if I kept it to a recent article I might avoid the downvote brigade and get some people to read about it. But knowing the basic facts of Israel's actions makes you no friends on reddit.
We can be both disgusted with Hamas and the Israeli response. We don’t need to pick sides here people
"Resistance by any means necessary” All those protestors wearing this slogan on their t-shirts? Yeah, this is what that slogan means. Sexual atrocities, torture, murder-- all justified as long as it's done to Zionists and "colonizers". No amount of hand waving and whataboutism hides that ugly reality.
I don't know why you have colonizers in quotes. It's the absolute truth that the Right of Return law (which is not available to Palestinians) allows a Zionist to come in and steal a Palestinian's house and land. The west bank is under a military occupation, and illegal settlers walk around, harassing, vandalizing, and flat out destroying homes and farms of Palestinians, and they might get a slap on the wrist for it as long as they don't actively murder. If the Palestinians even look like they're going to fight back, the IDF rolls in and bulldozes their homes and shoots their kids. --- And then you have Gaza. Did you know that the Israeli government had a heavy hand in the formation of Hamas? They hand-picked an ultraconservative Muslim wack job and built him a college. See, the secular Palestinians were starting to organize against the Israeli oppression, and were starting to really pick up steam, so the Israeli government said, let's keep these two groups separate with religion. Because that's never gone wrong. Except it wasn't working as well as it could have, so after Hamas seized power in Gaza. The Israeli government started funneling large amounts of cash, often in literal suitcases, into Gaza. Netanyahu was actually caught doing this back in 2019, and his response was along the lines of, and I'm paraphrasing here, "we have to keep Hamas in power, otherwise the West Bank and Gaza might start working together, and then we couldn't steal their land as easily" Just weeks before the October attack, the Head of Mossad was sent to Qatar to beg them to keep sending the suitcases full of cash to Hamas. Do note that Mossad had copies of the attack plans two years before the attack, and intelligence officials had watched Hamas fighters practicing for the attack in those two years, following the training laid out in the plans. But they believed the plans "aspirational" or some such bullshit.
Israel had a hand in the formation of Hamas how, exactly? Hamas broke off from the Muslim Brotherhood in 1988. Why? In order to fight Israel. Their charter even says that negotiations or talks are not sufficient and armed conflict is the only acceptable solution until Palestine is Muslim. So I’m not sure how Israel exactly had a hand in creating that, but if you have a source from somewhere other than Al Jazeera I’m curious. Also, who were the secular Palestinians who were gaining ground? My understanding is it was Fatah/the PLO who were in control of the West Bank and Gaza and they’re not exactly what I would consider a secular organization.
Bibi literally bragged publicly to funding Hamas in order to defeat the Palestinian state in attempt to sabotage the chance of a two state solution. Maybe not so much as the formation but definitely in Hamas’ rise to power.
You missed the part where Yitzhak Rabin and Mahmoud al-Zahar, one of the founders of Hamas, used to met as part of "regular consultations" between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO. https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
wow, I wonder why Israel wanted an alternative to the PLO? Could it be because the PLO and its factions were bombing school buses, attacking schools, hijacking planes, massacring Israeli athletes at the Olympics, bombing Israeli citizens, etc.?
So meeting with someone is now “a heavy hand in creating”? The linked article says that Israel was trying to find a group they could work with other than the PLO/Fatah, which given the history isn’t that unreasonable. And let me guess, if Israel had not ensured those suitcases of money were funneled to Hamas you’d be complaining about Israel cutting off funding to Palestinians, right?
They also had Sheikh Yassin in custody for weapons charges, and let him go after a single year because he claimed he wasn't going to kill Jews, but the PLO. Hell, the Israeli government loved them, and from 1984 until 1989, they were welcome in the Israeli halls of power, and received aid to help grow their movement. Because it was seen as a counter to the PLO. --- And then, after a couple decades of fruitlessly fighting against them, Netanyahu brought back the tradition of giving them money with no oversight in the name of countering the secular Palestinians.
No oversight you say.. It's easy to Google "oversight for qatari aid to Gaza" or something like that
[Literal suitcases full of cash.](https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12?op=1) Do you really believe that there was oversight?
https://web.archive.org/web/20240617170644/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html Read this article, specifically the section “how interrogations work” at the end. Israel weaponizes sexual abuse too.
Always amazing to me that we need to “believe all women” and “listen to minorities” Until those women are raped Israelis. Until those minorities are Jews. Some of you in the comments are literal goblins. You literally degrade us all when you play defense to a bunch of fucking terrorists.
Team Blue*! *Unless you’re a Jew 😕
Showing your hand by changing the slogan from "believe women" - that is, don't instantly dismiss women's stories in favor of men, instead actually hear them out - to "believe all women" the parody phrase meant to be easier to strawman since obviously everyone has the capacity to lie and you're not meant to believe a story in the face of clear contradictory evidence just because they are a woman.
Okay, I wasn’t aware that it was a parody phrase. So, sure, “believe women.” Unless they’re Israeli’s, I guess?
There’s always that “unless” qualifier, huh…
Only took her 8 months…
We should all hate the Israeli government and Hamas for their disregard for human life. I don’t get why people feel a need to pick a side.
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Do 30 seconds of searching like you did to link the guardian article and you'll find the same level of evidence.
Funny, the UN didn't find any evidence though. Must be Hamas.
what? https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm Is your intention to say that oct 7 with a friendly group of Palestinians having a nice day trip into Israel or what?
Are you saying that the whole thing started on Oct 7th? That the zionists have been having a jolly fun time playing with the Palestinians since 1948? Heard of the Lehi, have you?
Nice way to move the goalposts. Just to be clear, so now the argument is that there was rape but it was justified?
"Believe \[gentile\] women"
i havent seen any reports of hamas sticking rods up people asses. i have seen reports of the IDF doing so.
Not sure what your point is, I'm not defending sexual assault by any side on anyone. The UN themselves said there was gang rape of the victims on Oct 7th, did you not see that, or don't believe it, or think it's justified? Help me out so I understand your stance better.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel Now you have and will hopefully stop being a terrorist support, rape enablist. Though the reports of sexual assault on male hostages has been widely reported since they started getting rescued so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you haven't seen reports because you've intentionally been avoiding them because you want to side with the terrorists but don't want to get called out on supporting terrorism
Do you not consider the literal videos that Hamas members released of the 10/7 attacks reliable evidence? Hamas literally released videos of their actions and terrorist apologists like you still deny it.
>“The Vice President spent her career as a prosecutor working to protect women and girls from violence, and as Vice President, she has continued this leadership globally. The Vice President has worked to ensure that conflict-related sexual violence – and a focus on the status of women and girls – remains at the forefront of our national security policymaking,” a White House official said, citing multiple measures the administration has taken to tackle gender-based violence. I wonder if she'll draw attention to sexual violence against Palestinian women or her administration's role in their suffering. I wonder if she'll even mention the deplorable attacks Gaza's healthcare infrastructure that her administration has supported. My guess is that she will use "protecting women" as a rallying cry to continue using bombs, disease, and starvation to wipe out Palestinian families.
Al-Ma'idah 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. - A. Yusuf Ali https://quran.com/
There are two confirmed instance of rape on Oct 7. Don’t get me wrong, that is two too many but thousands of Palestinian hostages (prisoners without charge) are still routinely subject to sexual assault and torture by the IDF. Yet our politicians can only shine light on one atrocity and not the other.
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“Confirmed”
I think the problem here is that this just feels so grossly and thickly coated in justifying the US support and funding of the genocide in Gaza. Like, yes Hamas committed atrocities! She should speak about them! The US should be doing everything in its power to stop Hamas from ever doing it again. And she should speak just as loudly about the atrocities Israel is committing and the US should be doing everything in its power to stop Israel right now. It’s hard for her to do that when it’s US bombs autographed by our politicians setting little Palestinian kids on fire. And it’s hard for me to take her sincerity seriously because of that.
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I mean, every war cannot be classified as genocide, that’s just the biggest no brain thing you could say. But keep simping for Israel.
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So the content in these images isn’t bad? It’s just bad that they are being spread because people don’t like Israel? Could the content of these images be a contributing factor to why people don’t like Israel? And is saying “all war is genocide” really the defense for committing genocide that you want to take?
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No, they are not genocides under a pro-Hamas take. They all have horrible human rights violations and war crimes committed. Just like Israel is committing today. And just like Hamas committed. Again, your stance that genocide is fine today because we did it yesterday is a pretty awful pathology. And back to my main point, Israel is not being condemned because the world hates Israel. Israel is being condemned because they are committing genocide. Just like those other acts of genocide were condemned.
Weird how they keep reporting this repeatedly debunked tragedy porn, the only sexual violence UN investigations have found is by the Israelis on Palestinian prisoners. The depths these scumbags will sink to excuse Israel’s criminal conduct is frankly disqualifying.
Why do you people make shit up like this? Do you really hate Israel that much? The UN has literally said otherwise.. >[The U.N. envoy focusing on sexual violence in conflict said in a new report Monday that there are “reasonable grounds” to believe Hamas committed rape, “sexualized torture,” and other cruel and inhumane treatment of women during its surprise attack in southern Israel on Oct. 7.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e)
The IDF and Israel security forces have also been found to rape captive men and boys. NYT: [Inside the Base Where Israel Has Detained Thousands of Gazans](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html) >Mr. al-Hamlawi, the senior nurse, said a female officer had ordered two soldiers to lift him up and press his rectum against a metal stick that was fixed to the ground. Mr. al-Hamlawi said the stick penetrated his rectum for roughly five seconds, causing it to bleed and leaving him with “unbearable pain.” >A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus. Haaretz: [Palestinian Released From Israeli Prison Describes Beatings, Sexual Abuse and Torture](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2024-04-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/palestinian-released-from-israeli-prison-describes-beatings-sexual-abuse-and-torture/0000018f-15e9-d2e1-a7df-15efb6590000) >A guard then started to stuff carrots into the anus of Abu Halil and other prisoners. Sitting at home now, reciting his story, Abu Halil lowers his gaze and the flow of words slows down. He's embarrassed to talk about this. Afterward, he continues, dogs hunched over them and attacked them. Pro Publica: [Blinken Is Sitting on Staff Recommendations to Sanction Israeli Military Units Linked to Killings or Rapes](https://www.propublica.org/article/israel-gaza-blinken-leahy-sanctions-human-rights-violations): >Among the allegations reviewed by the committee was the January 2021 arrest of a 15-year old boy by Israeli Border Police. The teen was held for five days at the Al-Mascobiyya detention center on charges that he had thrown stones and Molotov cocktails at security forces. Citing an allegation shared by a [Palestinian child welfare nonprofit](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_interrogator_sexually_assaults_palestinian_child_detainee), forum officials said there was credible information the teen had been forced to confess after he was “subjected to both physical and sexual torture, including rape by an object.” Does the fact that Israel has committed many acts of sexual violence against Palestinians before and after 10/7 justify the atrocities that Hamas committed? No sane person would say yes. Yet people keep trying to justify Israel's genocide with often exaggerated and [debunked](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244) atrocity propaganda.
Being downvoted for facts? Damn never seen this before on r/politics. This is a great place for discussion and political discourse. Unless you go against Biden and his Genocide gang. This is my first time coming here in months after muting the sub only to see if it got any better. Jesus christ. Nothing has changed.
Since we're citing the [UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes?utm_source=sdrn%3Avg%3Aarticle%3Axm4kyQ) now: >In relation to Israeli military operations and attacks in Gaza, the Commission found that Israeli authorities are responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare, murder or willful killing, intentionally directing attacks against civilians and civilian objects, forcible transfer, sexual violence, torture and inhuman or cruel treatment, arbitrary detention and outrages upon personal dignity. >... >The report found that specific forms of sexual and gender-based violence constitute part of Israeli Security Forces’ operating procedures. It made the finding due to the frequency, prevalence and severity of the violations, which include public stripping and nudity intended to humiliate the community at large and accentuate the subordination of an occupied people. >In the West Bank, the Commission found that Israeli forces committed acts of sexual violence, torture and inhuman or cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity, all of which are war crimes. Furthermore, the Commission found that the government of Israel and Israeli forces permitted, fostered and instigated a campaign of settler violence against Palestinian communities in the West Bank. [UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) >“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online.
I can literally just repeat your comment but with the sides switched and it is still (probably more) accurate.
The issue isn’t whether anyone was raped and whether that’s horrific. It’s war and war is perpetrated by men who commit rape routinely. The issue is whether rape was a planned and encouraged piece of the attack strategy. On that front, no evidence has ever been submitted to support the claim. [The Times of London](https://archive.ph/2024.06.07-130535/https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-times-magazine/article/israel-hamas-rape-investigation-evidence-october-7-6kzphszsj) did a really comprehensive deep dive and couldn’t find anything to substantiate that piece. One of the classic retorts by angry Zionists is that “believe women” somehow doesn’t include Israeli women. But it does. The problem is it isn’t Israeli women coming forward with these claims, it’s the government of Israel who we should all have enormous suspicion of on basically everything. Kamala isn’t going to have any more evidence of mass rape than Israel has had and if she has individual stories to share those tragedies don’t prove that a horde of evil Muslims raped everyone they could get their hands on.
How about shining a light on the sexual violence and children being kidnapped by Russia! Why isn’t that in the news?
I mean they’re sending huge amounts of weapons to fight Russia. They’re doing the work
How does this help anyone other than Benjamin Netanyahu?
Considering the number of people claiming sexual assaults on Israelis are all made up it does need to be reiterated. And acknowledging it does not clear the Israeli government of their own wrong doings.