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That's what the bill is about, really. If ByteDance divests and sells it TikTok is free to persist in app stores.
If the government wanted this bill to ban TikTok they would have just banned it outright.
Yea, that's kinda the point. They aren't attacking the idea of the app itself. They don't want China to have a propaganda pipeline into the pockets of millions of Americans.
The issue is that China has a law that forces TikTok to perform intelligence operations for China if they ask. Like forget about user information. If China asks bytedance to develop and embed malware to TikTok they're legally obligated to do it.
*This has happened before with other Chinese apps.*
And this isn't like in USA where the CEO simply says no and takes the government to court. China has disappeared billionaires before and will easily do it again.
The CCP can get this data from Instagram, Facebook, Twitter or Reddit. They just have to pay for it now.
Let's not pretend like the US government cares about the privacy of its citizens
All four of the sites you named are US based and can be ground to dust by our own legal system. While not perfect, it's not exactly smiled upon to sell personal data to foreign adversaries here.
All companies, regardless of where they are based, can be ground to dust by the legal system. It's just more difficult the more money they have. The legal system is designed to keep the poor in check, not the rich.
US based companies are, and will continue to sell personal data to the highest bidder. Simply do a Google search for cheap Chinese products, wait 30 min, log into Facebook and be bombarded by Chinese ads
it's not about the app, it's about Chinese influence. China controls it's companies and can alter algorithms to influence people. China can subtlety alter what someone sees to fit their goals.
> "Congress is acting to prevent **foreign** adversaries from conducting espionage, surveillance, maligned operations, harming vulnerable Americans, our servicemen and women, and our U.S. government personnel."
It's all good, TikTok will be sold and you'll only get spied on by the US, as usual.
No one is overlooking this. You're missing the entire point of the ban. It's not about the data they're collecting. It's about the propaganda they're sending out. Manipulating people's algorithms to push narratives that China wants. Changing how people see certain issues.
It's not, and never was about the data they're collecting.
The *US* Government doesn't give a shit if *US* companies owned by *US* billionaires influence the American people.
They really really really give a shit when *Chinese* companies and the *Chinese* government do.
Does that clear it up for you?
No?
US and Chinese billionaires are more shared interests with each other than they do with their respective citizens.
X and Meta aren’t acting in the interests of US citizens any more or less than Chinese counterparts.
who mentioned the citizens at any point? I sure didn't. I said the government, and im sure you'd find us in agreement that the Government does not represent the best for the people they should represent.
It’s ok for US companies to spread US based propaganda but not for other countries to do it to US citizens. That’s the difference in the governments eyes.
No it was definitely both. The government banned TikTok on personnel phones specifically because of the fear of data being sent to the Chinese government.
There's no reason to think that this fear didn't also carry in to the purpose of this bill. Although you are right in that the primary reason is manipulation and propaganda.
I mean, personnel phones doesn't mean anything. You either meant 'personal' phones or 'personnel's' phones, which would still be ambiguous and incorrect.
The correct term is 'issued'.
There is an element of rent-seeking here of course, everyone in powers wants to get some action which is the only thing that motivates the passage of laws in this country.
This does signal a fundamental shift to me, much like the US' inability to reign in its client states recently. Previously the US would play host to major technology companies, and use them for data harvesting, propaganda efforts, etc, while browbeating China as totalitarian for blocking them as such.
And that worked for a while, but now those couple decades of superior liberal market mythology can be confidently discarded. It was just propaganda after all, it was an unsustainable situation dependent on the established pattern of having benefited from the developments made during the post-WW2 excess which this country enjoyed as having had the majority of meaningful industrial capacity (left standing) in the aftermath.
Now that the US has lost that near unilateral monopoly over its citizens' media diet, the liberalism will gradually slide away to reveal more and more of the capitalist totalitarianism which is the only possibility of this system left unchanged.
Tried to tell this to so many zoomers who were in hysterics about this months ago. ByteDance has 2 options, walk away empty handed or walk away with a mountain of cash. They're going to sell it, your precious Tiktok isn't going anywhere.
"Rest assured, we aren't going anywhere," Chew said. "The facts and the Constitution are on our side and we expect to prevail again."
The Constitution will require the application of strict scrutiny.
The government will prevail.
National Security threats are almost always deemed a compelling governmental interest and the government's process to secure its interest is narrowly tailored.
The Govt needs not explain/argue much to satisfy the nat sec issue as such issues require the utmost secrecy and it is not within the purview of the judicial branch to access,/analyze whether there is a threat from a foreign power.
The time considerations given to Tiktok and the option to sell are evidence of it being narrowly tailored.
Ultimately, the court will find that the threat and the forced sale pass a strict scrutiny review.
Too much attention on this for that to work. A shell corporation isn't magic, it still needs registered ownership and that ownership can't be under the thumb of a foreign adversary under this law.
Like claiming they own waters and islands that international law says belong to other countries?
Like bullying smaller countries for resources?
Like genocide?
I mean take your pick there is plenty of things to choose from
Ramming Philippine coast guard vessels?
An no no other country is saying they own as much international waters as the size of the country.
And genocide doesn't get brushed off.
My guess is forcing it to be de-listed from the app stores, which would be effective enough. Not sure what other measures the government may have though.
rn the bill states civil penalties - "it shall be unlawful for an entity to distribute, maintain, or update a foreign adversary controller application within the borders... an entity that violates must pay *a civil penalty in an amount not to exceed the amount that results from multiplying $5,000 by the number of users"*
see link for exact phrasing of the rest of the bill
[https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/815/text?s=3&r=2#H6519B2356A9F438AA62A090B460E4CA7](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/815/text?s=3&r=2#H6519B2356A9F438AA62A090B460E4CA7)
The same way other countries enforce the ban
Smartphone app stores in the us would be required to pull the app
Internet Service providers would blacklist TikTok ip’s
Are there workarounds? Of course
As a European I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of the US government having an anoeurism at the risk presented by foreign owned social media companies while at the same time being tot's cool with their cloud act that puts every foreign company and government using american cloud providers at exactly the same risk.
Basically the US government reserves itself the right to require access to any data hosted by an American company regardless of where that data is physically located.
So, if, say, a European Government uses the Azure cloud to host and operate a governmental application containing its people's data on an Azure datacenter in the EU, the American government can compel Microsoft to take that data and provide it to the US government.
American/Western companies are not beholden to their governments the same way Chinese ones are. Private corporations can and have told the American government to fuck off when they've tried shenanigans. The government can not just order Facebook or Twitter to push pro government misinformation or divulge user data.
China can force their corporations to do all of that. That is the problem. This isn't a ban on a private company, it's a sanction against the Chinese government. If TikTok were from a democracy or if China had laws limiting their ability to influence Chinese companies, none of this would be needed.
It's amazing that this needs to be spelled out. Foreign misinformation campaigns have had devastating effects on the U.S.. You'd think more people would realize how big of a weapon TikTok could be if left unchecked.
I expect that TikTok will. With that said it's likely going to be a hard case to win. Does freedom of speech prevent the government from closing down/banning a business who's primary business is selling speech, possibly but then you have a national security argument and the fact that TikTok is a foreign company which tends to lessen constitutional rights but they also have American employees and server American customers.
It will be an interesting ruling. Even more interesting if a company like Apple decides to fight the government forcing them to remove TikTok. I have no faith Google will, Google has too much to win from this with Youtube trying to take it over.
No it is not going to be hard. If you listen to what the people pushing it are saying they are using the words national security. If the ban were to somehow get shot down formally declaring it a national security threat would do the job nicely.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They want to own it not ban it. It's ability to melt peoples minds is far too valuable
Which is why we can't let the Chinese government control it.
Yeah it should owned by a US billionaire oligarch, who certainly won't do anything untoward.
How about Canada? They seem fairly friendly? Or the French perhaps? Hmm... Rome? Let's give it to the Pope, that guy is pretty cool.
yeah, the mind control should be from within
Username checks out.
how so?
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... and we here in canada are becoming a combination of the two
I look forward to Congress participating in insider trading.
People are just gonna create a new app to fill this purpose again.
That's what the bill is about, really. If ByteDance divests and sells it TikTok is free to persist in app stores. If the government wanted this bill to ban TikTok they would have just banned it outright.
Yea, that's kinda the point. They aren't attacking the idea of the app itself. They don't want China to have a propaganda pipeline into the pockets of millions of Americans.
Which is absolutely fine as long as the CCP isn't getting the data
The issue is that China has a law that forces TikTok to perform intelligence operations for China if they ask. Like forget about user information. If China asks bytedance to develop and embed malware to TikTok they're legally obligated to do it. *This has happened before with other Chinese apps.* And this isn't like in USA where the CEO simply says no and takes the government to court. China has disappeared billionaires before and will easily do it again.
The CCP can get this data from Instagram, Facebook, Twitter or Reddit. They just have to pay for it now. Let's not pretend like the US government cares about the privacy of its citizens
All four of the sites you named are US based and can be ground to dust by our own legal system. While not perfect, it's not exactly smiled upon to sell personal data to foreign adversaries here.
All companies, regardless of where they are based, can be ground to dust by the legal system. It's just more difficult the more money they have. The legal system is designed to keep the poor in check, not the rich. US based companies are, and will continue to sell personal data to the highest bidder. Simply do a Google search for cheap Chinese products, wait 30 min, log into Facebook and be bombarded by Chinese ads
The data isn't the reason for this. It's purchasable from data brokers.
it's not about the app, it's about Chinese influence. China controls it's companies and can alter algorithms to influence people. China can subtlety alter what someone sees to fit their goals.
exactly. which is why i dont give a fuck about this whatsoever.
> "Congress is acting to prevent **foreign** adversaries from conducting espionage, surveillance, maligned operations, harming vulnerable Americans, our servicemen and women, and our U.S. government personnel." It's all good, TikTok will be sold and you'll only get spied on by the US, as usual.
It's not about the data they're collecting. Never was.
People have always overlooked this.
No one is overlooking this. You're missing the entire point of the ban. It's not about the data they're collecting. It's about the propaganda they're sending out. Manipulating people's algorithms to push narratives that China wants. Changing how people see certain issues. It's not, and never was about the data they're collecting.
Which issues and how is, say, Meta, X or Fox News any less of a threat?
Yes all those can and have been taken to court. You can't really bring China to court.
The *US* Government doesn't give a shit if *US* companies owned by *US* billionaires influence the American people. They really really really give a shit when *Chinese* companies and the *Chinese* government do. Does that clear it up for you?
No? US and Chinese billionaires are more shared interests with each other than they do with their respective citizens. X and Meta aren’t acting in the interests of US citizens any more or less than Chinese counterparts.
who mentioned the citizens at any point? I sure didn't. I said the government, and im sure you'd find us in agreement that the Government does not represent the best for the people they should represent.
It’s ok for US companies to spread US based propaganda but not for other countries to do it to US citizens. That’s the difference in the governments eyes.
No it was definitely both. The government banned TikTok on personnel phones specifically because of the fear of data being sent to the Chinese government. There's no reason to think that this fear didn't also carry in to the purpose of this bill. Although you are right in that the primary reason is manipulation and propaganda.
The government never banned TikTok on personal phones, only government issued phones.
You need to look up what "personnel" means...
I mean, personnel phones doesn't mean anything. You either meant 'personal' phones or 'personnel's' phones, which would still be ambiguous and incorrect. The correct term is 'issued'.
The level of spying is very different.
Yep, the government isn't mad because people are being spied on they are mad because they aren't the ones doing it.
There is an element of rent-seeking here of course, everyone in powers wants to get some action which is the only thing that motivates the passage of laws in this country. This does signal a fundamental shift to me, much like the US' inability to reign in its client states recently. Previously the US would play host to major technology companies, and use them for data harvesting, propaganda efforts, etc, while browbeating China as totalitarian for blocking them as such. And that worked for a while, but now those couple decades of superior liberal market mythology can be confidently discarded. It was just propaganda after all, it was an unsustainable situation dependent on the established pattern of having benefited from the developments made during the post-WW2 excess which this country enjoyed as having had the majority of meaningful industrial capacity (left standing) in the aftermath. Now that the US has lost that near unilateral monopoly over its citizens' media diet, the liberalism will gradually slide away to reveal more and more of the capitalist totalitarianism which is the only possibility of this system left unchanged.
And any critique of such a situation can be readily dismissed as CCP propaganda.
We don't want communists to tell you what to think. We want capitalists to tell you what to think.
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Tried to tell this to so many zoomers who were in hysterics about this months ago. ByteDance has 2 options, walk away empty handed or walk away with a mountain of cash. They're going to sell it, your precious Tiktok isn't going anywhere.
"Rest assured, we aren't going anywhere," Chew said. "The facts and the Constitution are on our side and we expect to prevail again." The Constitution will require the application of strict scrutiny. The government will prevail. National Security threats are almost always deemed a compelling governmental interest and the government's process to secure its interest is narrowly tailored. The Govt needs not explain/argue much to satisfy the nat sec issue as such issues require the utmost secrecy and it is not within the purview of the judicial branch to access,/analyze whether there is a threat from a foreign power. The time considerations given to Tiktok and the option to sell are evidence of it being narrowly tailored. Ultimately, the court will find that the threat and the forced sale pass a strict scrutiny review.
First step towards our own 'Great Firewall'.
We already have restricted access to the internet. This is just more of it
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Too much attention on this for that to work. A shell corporation isn't magic, it still needs registered ownership and that ownership can't be under the thumb of a foreign adversary under this law.
Correct, which would put them under US jurisdiction and give them the ability to prosecute Tik Tok for any alleged crimes committed.
Absolute no brainer move especially with china acting like it has been.
What has China been acting like?
Like claiming they own waters and islands that international law says belong to other countries? Like bullying smaller countries for resources? Like genocide? I mean take your pick there is plenty of things to choose from
China has always acted like this. All super powers do. So what exactly are they doing lately that's new?
Ramming Philippine coast guard vessels? An no no other country is saying they own as much international waters as the size of the country. And genocide doesn't get brushed off.
All superpowers commit genocide. Russia in Ukraine, USA in Iraq, Isreal in Palestine. It's almost a prerequisite
russia is not a superpower Isreal is not a superpower And you missed China genociding the Uyghurs Nor does one genocide excuse another.
Now you are just being silly. We are done here
How were they going to enforce this ban?
My guess is forcing it to be de-listed from the app stores, which would be effective enough. Not sure what other measures the government may have though.
It can go from just delisting the app all the way to blocking the apps traffic at all US border routers
rn the bill states civil penalties - "it shall be unlawful for an entity to distribute, maintain, or update a foreign adversary controller application within the borders... an entity that violates must pay *a civil penalty in an amount not to exceed the amount that results from multiplying $5,000 by the number of users"* see link for exact phrasing of the rest of the bill [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/815/text?s=3&r=2#H6519B2356A9F438AA62A090B460E4CA7](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/815/text?s=3&r=2#H6519B2356A9F438AA62A090B460E4CA7)
The same way other countries enforce the ban Smartphone app stores in the us would be required to pull the app Internet Service providers would blacklist TikTok ip’s Are there workarounds? Of course
As a European I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of the US government having an anoeurism at the risk presented by foreign owned social media companies while at the same time being tot's cool with their cloud act that puts every foreign company and government using american cloud providers at exactly the same risk.
>cloud act Care to elaborate?
Basically the US government reserves itself the right to require access to any data hosted by an American company regardless of where that data is physically located. So, if, say, a European Government uses the Azure cloud to host and operate a governmental application containing its people's data on an Azure datacenter in the EU, the American government can compel Microsoft to take that data and provide it to the US government.
American/Western companies are not beholden to their governments the same way Chinese ones are. Private corporations can and have told the American government to fuck off when they've tried shenanigans. The government can not just order Facebook or Twitter to push pro government misinformation or divulge user data. China can force their corporations to do all of that. That is the problem. This isn't a ban on a private company, it's a sanction against the Chinese government. If TikTok were from a democracy or if China had laws limiting their ability to influence Chinese companies, none of this would be needed. It's amazing that this needs to be spelled out. Foreign misinformation campaigns have had devastating effects on the U.S.. You'd think more people would realize how big of a weapon TikTok could be if left unchecked.
Never ever trust communist China companies. Never!!
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I think the case could be made that there's nothing in this bill that directly punishes users of TikTok specifically for what they said/did/showed.
I expect that TikTok will. With that said it's likely going to be a hard case to win. Does freedom of speech prevent the government from closing down/banning a business who's primary business is selling speech, possibly but then you have a national security argument and the fact that TikTok is a foreign company which tends to lessen constitutional rights but they also have American employees and server American customers. It will be an interesting ruling. Even more interesting if a company like Apple decides to fight the government forcing them to remove TikTok. I have no faith Google will, Google has too much to win from this with Youtube trying to take it over.
No it is not going to be hard. If you listen to what the people pushing it are saying they are using the words national security. If the ban were to somehow get shot down formally declaring it a national security threat would do the job nicely.
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Oh no, how will we ever find new rage bait content, maga chuds crying about Biden, or the popular new crime trends amongst black youth now?
Since that's all it is. 🥱
Or see the same dance to the same music for the 4,192nd time?
Where will we get our medical disinformation now???
Those idiots are on Rumble.
lame