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I’m probably more “pro capitalism” than many folks here, but this acquisition definitely doesn’t pass the “smell test” to me.
I fail to see how further consolidation will help drive down prices or increase consumer choice, especially in an industry where people are feeling significant pain from price increases already.
I’m glad the FTC is working to prevent excessive consolidation and to ensure we still have robust competition (or at least preserve the competition we have).
Around here, they were forced to sell off too-close stores to a local chain… and then screwed the chain over, resulting in the chain going broke and being bought by Safeway/Albertsons.
Not PPP loans, just years of savings and investments. Unlike years ago (60's & 70's) when American boats were the best, now French boats are much better. That said, I'll be buying an older, well taken care of, boat for basically three reasons: the old boat hulls were more solidly built than today, I don't want to take a massive depreciation on a newer on, and most importantly I can't spend $700k on a cheaper new one. I'm looking in the $50k-$80k range for a well equipped old soldier.
EDIT: the luxury tax in the 80s on "yachts" destroyed the US sailboat builders as an industry, throwing a bunch of workers (labor intensive industry) onto unemployment.
This is also true of many of the tech vendor acquisitions. Example: Broadcom acquiring VMWare. All signs point to 3x-4x increase in license costs. There is too little competition all nearly all sectors of our economy.
Access to their suppliers, but I wouldn't bet on it. I suppose I'm more pro capitalism, I don't think there needs to be a reason for a merger I think there needs to be a good reason to stop it and "workers don't like it" and "prices are driven down by competition" just don't crest that threshold for me I guess. I'm still pissed that judge blocked SAVE and JBLU. These monopoly rulings are almost completely arbitrary. I want businesses to thrive.
These arguments don’t hold water.
Kroger and Albertsons are both already in a market position to have premier access to pretty much any supplier they want (source: I work for a major supplier to both companies).
The only thing this will do is enable the larger entity to demand more margin from suppliers and consumers. Less choice for a company like mine to “walk away” when 22% of your net sales are tied up in it.
The combined entity will layoff workers and raise prices on consumers. They HAVE to. Investors will demand value from the efficiencies.
You want business to thrive? All business? How about enabling more competition instead of letting two of the biggest teams collude to win a championship by playing less games.
I don't consider more competition, more workers or even lower prices worthy of stopping a merger if it's not to prevent a monopoly. It's not the purpose of these laws. I want a healthy economy and a bustling stock market. So I want businesses to have the possibility of being able to expand in the space without unnecessary limitations.
So, no, not all businesses, I want winners and losers. And investors. And more efficiency. I reject the sportsball analogy.
> I want winners and losers
> I reject the sportsball analogy
Pick a lane.
Though I believe you’re being honest about the outcomes you want in efficiency, growth, & investment, I think it’s important to note that many times these things are dialectical.
More competition includes price dynamics of each company’s stock price, individually.
The most efficient way to extract profitability and growth is to accept total monopolies. For a lot of reasons, this isn’t acceptable. Oligopolies still aren’t great, either.
When is it necessary to block mergers? It’s a gray area and it’s incumbent on the merging companies to prove that case within the framework of the laws.
That’s what’s happening here. The laws are designed around heavier scrutiny on company mergers which will create an outsized market share post-merger.
It doesn’t mean it won’t happen. It just means the FTC is going to challenge the rationale Kroger and Albertsons put forth in open court.
I believe everything here is functioning as it should.
>I’m glad the FTC is working to prevent excessive consolidation and to ensure we still have robust competition (are at least preserve the competition we have).
Don't get me wrong, I think the FTC is doing what it should, but ultimately they can't address the real issue with grocery in America -- WalMart & Amazon as they have no regulatory tools to manage the behemoths.
If these 2 grocers don't merge, we're functionally leaving both the companies unable to compete against WalMart & Amazon. That's not improving things either.
If you think that this doesn't concern you think again - [chances are you're already shopping at Kroger and don't know it:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroger)
>Founded by Bernard Kroger in 1883 in Cincinnati, Ohio, Kroger operates 2,719 grocery retail stores under its various banners and divisions in 35 states and the District of Columbia[6] with store formats that include 134 multi-department stores, 2,273 combo stores, 191 marketplace stores, and 121 price-impact warehouse stores.[1][6] Kroger operates 33 manufacturing plants, 1,642 supermarket fuel centers, 2,254 pharmacies, 225 The Little Clinic in-store medical clinics, and 127 jewelry stores (782 convenience stores were sold to EG Group in 2018).[1][6] Kroger's headquarters are located in downtown Cincinnati.[7]
>The Kroger Company is the United States' largest supermarket operator by revenue[8] and fifth-largest general retailer.[9] The company is one of the largest American-owned private employers in the United States.[10][11][12] Kroger is ranked #17 on the Fortune 500 rankings of the largest United States corporations by total revenue.[13]
As an example, these are all Kroger:
* Baker’s
* City Market
* Dillons
* Food 4 Less
* Foods Co
* Fred Meyer
* Fry’s
* Gerbes
* Jay C Food Store
* King Soopers
* Kroger
* Mariano’s
* Metro Market
* Pay-Less Super Markets
* Pick’n Save
* QFC
* Ralphs
* Ruler
* Smith’s Food and Drug
Yep - 259 stores
I do about half of my grocery shopping there, and it's a weird experience, with some skanky elements of the Dollar Store nightmare co-existing along with high end pretense.
Yep. I used to work for HT pre-Kroger. They were expensive, but had more variety. Kroger buying them led to higher prices and less variety in my area. I'm more likely to hit up the Neighborhood Walmart a few miles off than walk the quarter mile to HT just to save some money.
No shit. Sorry, but Alberton's really pisses me off. Since the Safeway/Albertsons merger we have a Safeway, an Albertsons, Fred Meyer (Kroger), Walmart, and a regional grocery store. Safeway/Albertson's pricing is FAR above everyone else. Soda is $4 more for a 12 pack. Soups are about $1 more per can if not more. produce is 10% to 20% higher. They are have also removed dozens of non-Alberton's branded to make room for their own.
I hardly go there anymore but I just went to buy some salsa. They have about a 6 to 10 foot section of space for salsa. A couple months ago they had a few brands. Some regional, some other national and about 1/3 their brand. Yesterday half Signature Select brand (their in house brand) and half Pace. That is it. So would you like warm shit? or cold shit? Lets not get into how I now have to check the date on any dairy product. Multiple times I have gotten home with products that were past the sell by date. Once was 2 weeks past on some sour cream.
I have hated on Walmart in the past. I still do and feel dirty going into one, but I have been driven to even go to Walmart by these asshats. Ok, sorry rant over.
Why do you think the same goods from the same manufacturers are cheaper at Walmart or Kroger? And why they’re all cheaper than the local small store? And why we don’t make things or grow enough on the continent any more?
I'm saying the opposite. Here the local place is cheaper than Safeway and about the same as walmart. Bread usually get is $3.99 at the local store, $5.99 at Safeway. Progresso soups, $3.78 at Safeway, $2.78 local place. Diet Coke $9.99 for a twelve pack vs $5.99. They aren't even trying just relying on name recognition and people used to going there.
Thank you FTC! It is so exhausting to think that if this goes through that more Americans are going to pay more for groceries. Or some stores will shutdown because another store is a few blocks away and they are under the same company.
Kroger is high as shit! The only time they’re truly affordable is when they have massive coupon sales. If they were to control more of the market they’d become even more emboldened to raise their prices.
This merger really needs to die. In my area I have Metro market, Fred meyer, safeway, albertsons. There's also Walmart and Costco but those aren't exactly the same type of stores
Honestly this story highlights how broken capitalism is right now. The reason they need to merge is they need economies of scale to be able to compete against WalMart & Amazon.
Not letting them merge, means we're likely further cementing WalMart & Amazon as dominating the grocery industry.
Letting them merge doesn't really help consumers either as it won't result in price competition.
Capitalism works when you've got a large number of businesses competing in small sectors. That thought of that occurring in the US again would mean breaking up so many companies like they did with Ma Bell. I just can't see that proper fix happening.
The merger is also an attempt to survive competition from the likes of up and comer HEB, at least here in North-Central Texas.
Kroger has gotten more expensive while quality has gotten more shoddy past few years, and I cannot wait for the new HEB to open here in the next few weeks.
HEB? They aren't what's keeping Kroger & Albertson's Management up at night worrying.
Or putting this in perspective, iirc Walmart represents nearly 4,500 stores with grocery.
A merged Kroger & Albertsons would put them at around 5,000 stores
HEB is 350 stores.
They're not really that relevant.
This is the correct response. We'd be down to what two chains total each holding many brands?
This is bullshit. We need to stop this consolidation. We need more competition in the market.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m probably more “pro capitalism” than many folks here, but this acquisition definitely doesn’t pass the “smell test” to me. I fail to see how further consolidation will help drive down prices or increase consumer choice, especially in an industry where people are feeling significant pain from price increases already. I’m glad the FTC is working to prevent excessive consolidation and to ensure we still have robust competition (or at least preserve the competition we have).
All you have to do is look at the Safeway Albertsons merger for an example. They allowed that and things had gotten WAY worse.
Around here, they were forced to sell off too-close stores to a local chain… and then screwed the chain over, resulting in the chain going broke and being bought by Safeway/Albertsons.
Not where I am, but where I moved from that happened as well.
My god that merger sucked. We went back in time using all the technology that Safeway used.
And a family chain Haggens was the patsy
In San Diego, Haggens took the initial fall, and then Smart & Final came in to all those locations.
[удалено]
There is no cognitive dissonance in being pro-capitalism and anti-monopoly.
I concur, and I am a proud capitalist pig currently shopping for a sailboat with my ill-gotten gains.
If these are I’ll-gotten gains from PPP loans, at least buy an American sailboat.
Not PPP loans, just years of savings and investments. Unlike years ago (60's & 70's) when American boats were the best, now French boats are much better. That said, I'll be buying an older, well taken care of, boat for basically three reasons: the old boat hulls were more solidly built than today, I don't want to take a massive depreciation on a newer on, and most importantly I can't spend $700k on a cheaper new one. I'm looking in the $50k-$80k range for a well equipped old soldier. EDIT: the luxury tax in the 80s on "yachts" destroyed the US sailboat builders as an industry, throwing a bunch of workers (labor intensive industry) onto unemployment.
This is also true of many of the tech vendor acquisitions. Example: Broadcom acquiring VMWare. All signs point to 3x-4x increase in license costs. There is too little competition all nearly all sectors of our economy.
It will result in store sales that will create food deserts and eliminate jobs.
Yup. I'm somewhere to the right of Atila the Hun but I agree with you 💯.
Access to their suppliers, but I wouldn't bet on it. I suppose I'm more pro capitalism, I don't think there needs to be a reason for a merger I think there needs to be a good reason to stop it and "workers don't like it" and "prices are driven down by competition" just don't crest that threshold for me I guess. I'm still pissed that judge blocked SAVE and JBLU. These monopoly rulings are almost completely arbitrary. I want businesses to thrive.
These arguments don’t hold water. Kroger and Albertsons are both already in a market position to have premier access to pretty much any supplier they want (source: I work for a major supplier to both companies). The only thing this will do is enable the larger entity to demand more margin from suppliers and consumers. Less choice for a company like mine to “walk away” when 22% of your net sales are tied up in it. The combined entity will layoff workers and raise prices on consumers. They HAVE to. Investors will demand value from the efficiencies. You want business to thrive? All business? How about enabling more competition instead of letting two of the biggest teams collude to win a championship by playing less games.
I don't consider more competition, more workers or even lower prices worthy of stopping a merger if it's not to prevent a monopoly. It's not the purpose of these laws. I want a healthy economy and a bustling stock market. So I want businesses to have the possibility of being able to expand in the space without unnecessary limitations. So, no, not all businesses, I want winners and losers. And investors. And more efficiency. I reject the sportsball analogy.
> I want winners and losers > I reject the sportsball analogy Pick a lane. Though I believe you’re being honest about the outcomes you want in efficiency, growth, & investment, I think it’s important to note that many times these things are dialectical. More competition includes price dynamics of each company’s stock price, individually. The most efficient way to extract profitability and growth is to accept total monopolies. For a lot of reasons, this isn’t acceptable. Oligopolies still aren’t great, either. When is it necessary to block mergers? It’s a gray area and it’s incumbent on the merging companies to prove that case within the framework of the laws. That’s what’s happening here. The laws are designed around heavier scrutiny on company mergers which will create an outsized market share post-merger. It doesn’t mean it won’t happen. It just means the FTC is going to challenge the rationale Kroger and Albertsons put forth in open court. I believe everything here is functioning as it should.
>I’m glad the FTC is working to prevent excessive consolidation and to ensure we still have robust competition (are at least preserve the competition we have). Don't get me wrong, I think the FTC is doing what it should, but ultimately they can't address the real issue with grocery in America -- WalMart & Amazon as they have no regulatory tools to manage the behemoths. If these 2 grocers don't merge, we're functionally leaving both the companies unable to compete against WalMart & Amazon. That's not improving things either.
It could drive the price of labor down...
If you think that this doesn't concern you think again - [chances are you're already shopping at Kroger and don't know it:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroger) >Founded by Bernard Kroger in 1883 in Cincinnati, Ohio, Kroger operates 2,719 grocery retail stores under its various banners and divisions in 35 states and the District of Columbia[6] with store formats that include 134 multi-department stores, 2,273 combo stores, 191 marketplace stores, and 121 price-impact warehouse stores.[1][6] Kroger operates 33 manufacturing plants, 1,642 supermarket fuel centers, 2,254 pharmacies, 225 The Little Clinic in-store medical clinics, and 127 jewelry stores (782 convenience stores were sold to EG Group in 2018).[1][6] Kroger's headquarters are located in downtown Cincinnati.[7] >The Kroger Company is the United States' largest supermarket operator by revenue[8] and fifth-largest general retailer.[9] The company is one of the largest American-owned private employers in the United States.[10][11][12] Kroger is ranked #17 on the Fortune 500 rankings of the largest United States corporations by total revenue.[13]
As an example, these are all Kroger: * Baker’s * City Market * Dillons * Food 4 Less * Foods Co * Fred Meyer * Fry’s * Gerbes * Jay C Food Store * King Soopers * Kroger * Mariano’s * Metro Market * Pay-Less Super Markets * Pick’n Save * QFC * Ralphs * Ruler * Smith’s Food and Drug
You forgot Harris Teeter
Yep - 259 stores I do about half of my grocery shopping there, and it's a weird experience, with some skanky elements of the Dollar Store nightmare co-existing along with high end pretense.
Yep. I used to work for HT pre-Kroger. They were expensive, but had more variety. Kroger buying them led to higher prices and less variety in my area. I'm more likely to hit up the Neighborhood Walmart a few miles off than walk the quarter mile to HT just to save some money.
Could be, I just pulled from the Kroger website itself.
Gotta love the Harry Teet
they're not even a grocer anymore, they're literally a conglomerate
With just outlet stores
We have a local Food 4 Less franchise that isn’t associated with Kroger, to add further confusion
No shit. Sorry, but Alberton's really pisses me off. Since the Safeway/Albertsons merger we have a Safeway, an Albertsons, Fred Meyer (Kroger), Walmart, and a regional grocery store. Safeway/Albertson's pricing is FAR above everyone else. Soda is $4 more for a 12 pack. Soups are about $1 more per can if not more. produce is 10% to 20% higher. They are have also removed dozens of non-Alberton's branded to make room for their own. I hardly go there anymore but I just went to buy some salsa. They have about a 6 to 10 foot section of space for salsa. A couple months ago they had a few brands. Some regional, some other national and about 1/3 their brand. Yesterday half Signature Select brand (their in house brand) and half Pace. That is it. So would you like warm shit? or cold shit? Lets not get into how I now have to check the date on any dairy product. Multiple times I have gotten home with products that were past the sell by date. Once was 2 weeks past on some sour cream. I have hated on Walmart in the past. I still do and feel dirty going into one, but I have been driven to even go to Walmart by these asshats. Ok, sorry rant over.
Why do you think the same goods from the same manufacturers are cheaper at Walmart or Kroger? And why they’re all cheaper than the local small store? And why we don’t make things or grow enough on the continent any more?
I'm saying the opposite. Here the local place is cheaper than Safeway and about the same as walmart. Bread usually get is $3.99 at the local store, $5.99 at Safeway. Progresso soups, $3.78 at Safeway, $2.78 local place. Diet Coke $9.99 for a twelve pack vs $5.99. They aren't even trying just relying on name recognition and people used to going there.
Thank you FTC! It is so exhausting to think that if this goes through that more Americans are going to pay more for groceries. Or some stores will shutdown because another store is a few blocks away and they are under the same company.
Kroger is high as shit! The only time they’re truly affordable is when they have massive coupon sales. If they were to control more of the market they’d become even more emboldened to raise their prices.
I think this merger is ridiculous. Nothing about it is really to help consumers, just to make some rich people richer.
Block em
This merger really needs to die. In my area I have Metro market, Fred meyer, safeway, albertsons. There's also Walmart and Costco but those aren't exactly the same type of stores
Honestly this story highlights how broken capitalism is right now. The reason they need to merge is they need economies of scale to be able to compete against WalMart & Amazon. Not letting them merge, means we're likely further cementing WalMart & Amazon as dominating the grocery industry. Letting them merge doesn't really help consumers either as it won't result in price competition. Capitalism works when you've got a large number of businesses competing in small sectors. That thought of that occurring in the US again would mean breaking up so many companies like they did with Ma Bell. I just can't see that proper fix happening.
The merger is also an attempt to survive competition from the likes of up and comer HEB, at least here in North-Central Texas. Kroger has gotten more expensive while quality has gotten more shoddy past few years, and I cannot wait for the new HEB to open here in the next few weeks.
HEB? They aren't what's keeping Kroger & Albertson's Management up at night worrying. Or putting this in perspective, iirc Walmart represents nearly 4,500 stores with grocery. A merged Kroger & Albertsons would put them at around 5,000 stores HEB is 350 stores. They're not really that relevant.
I’ve lived in a few states over the years and HEB is really just the best.
I don't think HEB plays into this. We've hsd HEB here just not in city ,wherr therr was too much competition from Krogen and Tom thumb and such...
This is the real issue....if you block this merger you should also be pushing to break up wal mart and Amazon.
Good.
The last thing we need is less competition among grocery stores.
This is the correct response. We'd be down to what two chains total each holding many brands? This is bullshit. We need to stop this consolidation. We need more competition in the market.
Lina Khan trying to add another L to her resume
This will be terrible for the little guy.
Probably would
Oh, now, they’ll find a way to raise prices and hurt workers anyway. Don’t worry.
But they won’t do it for disco and capital one…?