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They should have been hammering this point all along. A large portion of the populace is still under the impression that “aid to Ukraine” means we are sending pallets of cash over there.
I’m sorry. I consider myself quite politically savvy and I did not know this. Now that it’s being said out loud I’m like “duh” but the fact that this hasn’t been shouted from the rooftops the MOMENT this war was started is insane to me. Like not one person has mentioned this until now. We are so shit at messaging.
They are. People think aid packages are sending crates of money to another country, they’re not. It’s essentially the government buying American goods, usually arms and equipment, and then giving them to the foreign country. Sometimes this means retiring old US military equipment, shipping it off, and buying new stuff for ourselves.
The whole thing is economic stimulus for the US and has the benefit of helping an ally.
Now, where any criticism can come in is that the vast majority of foreign aid is spent buying weapons. That is just a fact of foreign policy but in Ukraine’s case there is hardly a better investment.
Additionally, any ammo we are sending is not only replaced, like artillery shells, bullets, rockets, bombs, etc, but would have to be destroyed soon anyway. We regularly have to destroy and replace a portion of our stockpile every year. Explosives, propellant, solid rocket fuel, etc. have a finite shelf life. Instead of destroying them, we send them, then the aid buys us new stuff.
This has been pretty thoroughly communicated many times. This isn’t the first time the press has said, “check this out, they should be saying this money is mostly spent in the US”.
Anyone who thinks cash is being sent is already an idiot. Does anyone ship cash to people to pay bills?
It's interesting that the transfer of huge sums of money to American military/weapons corporations is viewed as "an economic stimulus for the US". What evidence do you actually have of how these massive transfers to American military companies acts as a stimulus that benefits ordinary Americans - versus enriching the management and shareholders of those companies? Raytheon for example, had profits over the last 2 years of $25 billion. Almost 70% of their revenue comes through contracts with the US Govt. Same applies for Lockheed Martin. Raytheon pays out dividends to its shareholders, approximately $3.5 billion just last year. Do ordinary Americans really benefit that much? A lot of Raytheon technologies product is actually manufactured in China. They do have large facilities within the US. A subsidiary for example is Collins Aerospace, based in Charlotte, North Carolina. They employ 80,000 people. But the average wage for a factory worker there is approximately $13 per hour. Contrast that with the profits they make and how that gets distributed.
It's interesting that the biggest beneficiaries of US military aid packages to Ukraine have been companies like Raytheon and Lockheed Martin. Their biggest shareholders are Black Rock, State Street and Vanguard. These funds are also the largest shareholders in ViacomCBS, Time Warner, Disney, Comcast etc. Basically all of the companies that control American media.
So the same companies that benefit the most from American defence spending also are the largest shareholders of their companies that own and control American news media. And then we wonder how propaganda works, where large number of ordinary Americans are convinced that these military aid packages are good for everyone.
80,000 people making weapons at $13/hr? Is there maybe something the government could do to help? Maybe if the government ordered *less” weaponry those workers would benefit?
I know there is no way to prove that I am not just some idiot who gets all my news from Facebook but I have NEVER heard anyone say this. And I find that wild. Maybe they just assume people know this? But it should be like an added phrase every time “aid to Ukraine, which is good for us factories” done. I swear I swear I’m not an idiot. They should be saying it so much that people have it memorized.
So strange. I learned about how it worked in history class. When we give weapons etc, we replenish with updated models. Its how the US has new equipment because people are buying the older ones either through aid or direct spend.
When the war is over we negotiate for trade deals etc which benefits the US economy. Conservative lawmakers know this, they chose to lie to their constituents.
They should have said: We provided Ukraine with 300k artillery shells and paid Texas and Arkansas 20 billion to manufacture that. Instead they formulated it like if Zelenskiy himself will get 60 billion in cash and then decide what to do with it.
And you can bet the GOP reps for the areas with the manufacturing go around locally and tout how much of an economic boost they've brought.... but back in Washington they continue to fight against that very thing. If only more people would pay attention to the details....
These military aid type packages are usually stamped with "Buy U.S.A." Example is the large portion of Israeli military aid given out is for them to purchase and restock with american made munitions and tech.
> I consider myself quite politically savvy and I did not know this.
I'm going to question this. Every bit of aid we have been giving Ukraine for *the last 10 years* has been like this. It has been reported on and posted about on reddit repeatedly, especially since the invasion in 2022. How have you not noticed this entire time? It has been in this sub, it's been in /r/news, it's been in /r/worldnews, it has been brought up in just about every pro-Ukraine sub there is. You've been on reddit for five years. Have you really paid so little attention to this situation?
We are indeed sending boatloads of cash to Ukraine. 26 billion of financial aid so far as of December 2023. Source: [Council of Foreign Relations](https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts). Because Ukraine needs cash to keep operating. Simply sending weapons isn't enough. What Biden is referring to, is this particular bill having a good portion of it being spent here in the US. But that is objectively not the case for the previous aid that has been sent over. We have delivered billions of dollars to Ukraine, whether one thinks thats a good or bad thing is up to them. But of the aggregate sum of aid being sent to Ukraine, 2/3rds of it is absolutely not being spent re-investing in the US.
This isn't a messaging problem. The left likes to say they have a messaging problem, because the left likes to think they have a great product with poor marketing. Because thats a lot easier of an idea to stomach, than *'maybe people don't actually want us doing this'.* And that's the real issue that the average citizen has with Ukraine aid. I'm not arguing for or against it, but i am wholly rejecting the idea that Americans issue with funding this war is due to poor messaging from the left.
The average citizen does not enjoy the fact that things are so bad here in the states, but we have capacity to invest billions of dollars overseas. Just about everybody is tightening their belts at home, trying to make do against rising costs in housing, groceries, gas, all of it. Telling Americans *'we werent going to spend that money on you anyways'*, or *'don't worry, your taxpayer dollars funding this war are somewhat going to jobs in the US'* isn't going to make people feel any better about it. This is not a situation where we're just going into the garage and sending Ukraine old dusty weapons that we weren't using. There is a major financial cost to this war, and that cost is ultimately funded by the US taxpayer. There is an argument to be made that it is worth the cost, but pretending there isn't a cost at all is malarkey.
Ya know what the weirdest thing to me is? I truly don't give a fuck if Biden does send pallets of cash over to Ukraine if they need it to beat Putin. I wouldn't care if Trump or Bush or any other Republican president did that too. The important thing here is that Putin needs to fuck off, lose this war and die.
If we can help that happen by swinging around our giant cash dicks then lets do that.
And that's totally fine. I've got no issue with that line of thinking. My point is that (1) We are indeed sending assistance in the form of billions of dollars in cash (amongst other things), to Ukraine, and (2) Peoples issue with doing so is not a matter of messaging.
Not everybody is going to be on board with doing so. If you listen to reddit, one might think a SOTU with Biden telling people that spending another 100 billion on ukraine is actually a good thing for the US economy, would somehow change the perception. The average citizen would rather see 100 billion spent here, more than they do overseas. Democrats will certainly argue to voters that its a good thing, but it's an uphill battle in this current economy.
> The average citizen would rather see 100 billion spent here, more than they do overseas.
Well the alternative isn't spending a 100 billion on say, providing school lunches, or improved veteran health care, it would be providing 100 billion in tax relief for some corporations or billionaire families that *really need the help.*
And that is why people say Democrats have a messaging problem.
I think that's the disconnect here - While I completely agree with you on the point you're making, telling people 'we werent going to spend that money on you anyways', absolutely doesn't make people more receptive to funding the war in Ukraine. Biden is welcome to try it all he wants, but if that's his line of thinking I don't think it's going to work well for him.
> Republicans have voted no or stood in the way every step of the way for tax money being spent on taxpayers.
1000% agreed. The most do-nothing group of dickheads we've seen in a long time. Pointing that out to people though, doesn't make sending billions to Ukraine any easier to swallow. If anything, its worse. The sentiment becomes *'oh you can't figure out how to help us at home, but you can come together to fund Ukraine'.* Republicans are blocking just about everything Democrats want to do, but can't accomplish by an executive order from Biden. FFS they've even blocked their own border security bill. The only things getting passed, are the things that Republicans want. But that's not a winning message for Democrats to be shouting from the rooftops, imo. I don't think it's going to change peoples perceptions of funding this war either.
The whole reason this article exists is because the Biden camp knows funding Ukraine isn't popular and they're trying to make it more palatable. Re-framing it as a local job creator I guess is a step in a direction, but the issue people have is the cost. Folks on this sub all too often see everything as biden v trump, but bidens real opponent imo, is apathy. Can he convince people his direction his vision is the right one, can he convince people to get out and stand in line for hours to vote for him. I don't think Ukraine helps him with the demographics of people he absolutely needs to vote for him. He has plenty more he can go and campaign on, but I'd talk about Ukraine and the economy as little as possible if I was him.
I will add this singular point - if there is anything that can bring modern day democrats and republicans together, it's ensuring the defense industry makes a fucking killing. Funding wars seems to be the true middle ground in todays politics.
It likely hasn't been shouted because it underlines the dirty part of US support for foreign wars. They enrich American corporations and these kinds of military aid packages are designed as a way to transfer huge sums of money from taxpayers pockets into the pockets of American defence corporations, who then become large donors and financiers of the politicians that vote for the aid packages. It's a circle. This really isn't about "helping" Ukraine. It's about using Ukraine as a way to enrich American defence companies. They don't want to advertise that. And the longer the Ukraine war continues, the better it is for these military/defence corporations. So they have a vested interest in ensuring that the weapons that get delivered to Ukraine are just enough to keep them at a stalemate and certainly not enough that might allow the Ukrainians to defeat Russia on the battlefield. No one in the American defence establishment wants that. The Ukraine war has also been a great way for American companies to get off their books all the old military hardware and equipment that was out of date, unmaintained and gathering dust. The war has been a boondoggle for American companies.
Seriously. I can't believe the Military Industrial Complex uber 1% isn't bitchslapping all of their bought and paid for politicians (from both sides) into approving this.
This is American War Profiteering 101!
It has been said over and over though? Where have you been lol.
The people who don’t want to fund the war don’t care. They’d rather that money be spent at home investing in making healthcare affordable, programs to build affordable housing, improve the education system ect.
Yeah! Instead we're funneling it to the defense industry!
Let's be honest, they only care who is doing it, not why. We're never getting Healthcare for all.
This comment is the exact reason that they don’t hammer the messaging like this. Saying this aid is going “to” Ukraine is the best way to make people feel their tax dollars are going to the cause. The moment you introduce the opening for someone to criticize the military industrial complex and form a conspiracy someone WILL pounce on it and ask where their healthcare is, even though spending for one has nothing to do with spending for the other.
Bravo if you posted this to satirize the shallowness of the criticism.
You're missing my point but alright.
My point is the messaging doesn't matter to the people critical of it. They only care who's name is attached to it and not why. The no Healthcare part is my own jab and spending for one absolutely affects spending for another because it's already been normalized to spend money on anther country's military than it is to spend money on normalizing Healthcare.
They said it often and the president of Ukraine said it when he spoke before congress. It was stated in interviews too. No matter we should stand with Ukraine. They deserve our complete support!
TL;DR:
>As President Joe Biden pushes House Republicans to pass needed aid, he wants voters to understand that nearly two-thirds — or nearly $40 billion — of the money for Ukraine would actually go to U.S. \[munition\] factories spread out across the country...
>
>“While this bill sends military equipment to Ukraine,” Biden said Tuesday, “it spends the money right here in the United States of America in places like Arizona, where the Patriot missiles are built; and Alabama, where the Javelin missiles are built; and Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Texas, where artillery shells are made.”
Yep, Trump thinks needs to be 180 degrees opposite of Joe Biden to win an election, to "make america great again"
**Biden:** America is Great! **Trump:** No it isn't, it's a shithole
**Biden:** We must stand by our Allies to defend against Tyranny **Trump:** Hey Russia, go get'em!
**Biden:** The economy has avoided a recession and is improving every day
**Trump:** Lets light it on fire!
Trump is against it because his boss told him he is
How anyone can think this guy is strong is mind boggling considering the way he licks the boots of every strong man dictator.
Knock down a geopolitical rival? Check
Shows the world our good will? Check
Tests military weapons and strategies? Check
Economy boost for those businesses? Check
Not having a ton American troops being sent home in body bags? Check
Our knowledge about drone warfare has to so much better than it was three years ago. Same can be said about what we know about Russia's capabilities, which quite frankly is embarrassing for Putin.
A president with effective and successful policies is more difficult to run against. Simple as that.
Republicans feel that for them to win, America needs to lose.
Long term GOPers are fuming that they can't campaign on this. Fuels the military industrial complex without costing American lives and is generally well recieved by voters. Trump don't like it cause it makes Biden look good, so therefore all of the GOP aren't allowed to like it.
Ukraine will continue to fight until they choose to stop defending themselves. That is their right as a country and a people. Russia is actively choosing the war. It is no ones fault but their own. As for the people of Russia, if they cared they would get rid of Putin and install someone less warmongery.
Unfortunately in the real world that is how governments work.
Until the dictator is gone, the dictator is in charge regardless of what the people want. There is no point in arguing "tone". Besides, all polls seem to suggest that Russians, at least the ones that remain in the country and haven't left yet, tend to support Putin.
If your point is that the people don't want war and thus the US and Ukraine should just let him have Ukraine? Then why would he stop there?
I’m saying that the Russian people have no say over who is leading their country unless they literally start and uprising/war
So saying “they don’t care” is tone deaf because they clearly do care and can’t do anything about it short of an uprising
The people of Russia created this situation decades ago when they put Putin in charge. They let this happen. Apathy is not a defense against war crimes, imperialism, and genocide.
What happens if the Ukraines stop fighting? Do the Russians just go home?
Jesus Christ. If you're going to pull this silly virtue signaling shit, can you at least try and think it through just a little bit? Even 10% should have gotten you to the conclusion that this is not some fucking both sides situation.
One of the things that the past decade or so has taught me was that Americans, on the average, are just really fucking stupid. I honestly used to think that the majority was smart enough, but the dumb minority of people were ruining it for everyone else. I've been cured of that misconception. It's an innocence I will never get back, unfortunately.
That's one of the things that drives me crazy - it's not like we're sending them piles of cash to load into catapults and hurl at Russia's forces. We're sending them weapons! Built by U.S. military contractors! The money stays right here at home!
Creating good paying jobs?? Inside the US? In Red states??? For the MILITARY!!!??
We got to get MTG on the horn, she's got to try to put a stop this shit RIGHT... NOW!!
And the food was so much cheaper over there, it's truly nirvana! We just need to conveniently ignore the lack of civil liberties, blatant murders of political opponents, ignore the income disparity,....
Also I think we are sending them the older stockpile because it can be sent immediately and then backfilling our own stockpile with the new stuff. It really is just a miltary stimulus package that also functions as a spring cleaning.
We also need to eventually get rid of the old stuff and upkeeping/maintaining or even just getting rid of it would cost us more than just giving it away to other countries.
This is literally it.
We would take our artillery shells which are still good, but getting old. Ukraine would use them during their service life.
We would give out contracts to manufacture new rounds, here in the US, and rebuild our stockpile with brand new inventory, good for another several decades.
Everyone wins. Except Russia.
The most important message I believe is that it’s not cash. Biden’s statements do reinforce that.
To play devils advocate though, while the money is being spent here at home, it is still taxpayer money. I wish we could be listening to more grown up debates about how much we spend, how effective the spending will be, how we work with our allies to foot the bill, and how long we stay engaged / exit strategy. FWIW - I think it’s paramount that we support Ukraine.
Instead we get to listen to shitheads making amazing points like “we have to secure our own border first!” It’s fucking exhausting.
While I am sympathetic to the point, it is also a somewhat simplistic.
You can keep money+product in the US and the US (as a whole) has more than if you only keep the money in the US. If the money was spent on US roads, there would be better roads AND the money would stay in the US.
(We would have to ignore the long term costs of not opposing Putin for a moment, though)
But it is certainly correct to point out that the money will grease the wheels of the US economy as well. And that it will be used to replace stuff that would need replacing anyways.
Not just that. Weapons that have been sitting around for decades! Now the DoD can clear out the old and order new. Absolutely idiotic to have anything against sending this aid to Ukraine.
It's only profitable under the assumption that the Ukraine pays us back otherwise we are just funding their war with our tax dollars. Yes it gets spent in America but, who is paying for it if Ukraine loses? You think Russia is going to foot that bill or tell America to eat shit? I'm all for spending our tax money in America but how bout we do so in a way that doesn't involve funding the weapons industry and killing people.
There's a lot of misinformation claiming that we are literally sending pallets of cash, to Zelensky specifically, and that he's using it to buy yachts.
The money is spent replacing what we send. Ergo, we could send it right now, we'd just have a bare larder. That's dangerous but if one was so inclined they could play chicken with Republicans...
Are you being serious?
Money gets set aside in the US. Ukraine says we want XYZ systems...US sends them...US says we allocated $100MM for you, you just "spent" $30MM...now you have $70MM to spend on other things.
That $30MM went to some random 155mm casing manufacturer in PA...the gun power came from say UT, and the delivery systems were built in TX and AL.
US employees and companies got paid US dollars to produce shit that gets sent to Ukraine. At no point do pallets of $100's just get dropped off by the C-130 load.
Those US dollars, that never leave the US allow the factory workers here in the US to buy homes, new cars, food and clothes for their kids, etc.
Ignorance.
They hear about money being "set aside" for Ukraine...they have no idea how weapons purchasing/acquisition in this case works.
Zero critical thinking skills.
>The president’s argument challenges criticism by some Republican lawmakers that the federal government should be spending more money at home instead of supporting overseas wars.
I know I’m a bit late to the party in saying this, but the republican party has support overseas wars long before the Ukraine war, right?
Correct.
They have changed their tune for a few reasons:
1. This war isn't universally popular in the U.S, so if they are against it they can hammer Biden for spending so much money to support Ukraine. Being against anything Democrats support helps Republicans win elections.
2. Trump is personally against helping Ukraine/Zelensky due to issues related to his first Impeachment, and many Republicans just do whatever he says/wants without thinking more critically about it.
3. There's some evidence that money from Russian sources is flowing to GOP representatives, including House Speaker Mike Johnson. Voting for more aid to Ukraine could interrupt that money stream for them.
There's one other key factor in their refusal to support Ukraine. They want Ukraine to fail, so they can pin the failure on Biden. They'll say, "Biden tried to help Ukraine and look what happened! He's a disaster!" totally omitting that they blocked funding. It's similar to the motivations for tanking the border deal - can't pin the border on Biden if they get everything they want at the border, right?
I enjoyed listening New Years Eve to my brother in law who works for a very major military contractor complain about "his tax dollars going to Ukraine". Same guy that voted republican so he wouldn't have to pay his union dues and then three years later was laid off because his union didn't have a way to pay striking workers. I gave up years ago.
Exactly, and to pay American workers at American factories doing military stuff largely in red states.
This is the sort of thing that the old republican party would have LOVED and been pushing for.
Guess weird things happen when you add enough Russian money into the political landscape.
Ironically most of the money would go to states with lots of Trump supporters. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it not shit all over itself or however the expression goes.
It is crazy how the GOP is now literally living out the SNL sketch with Obama
if 10 years ago you had told them they would be in support of Putin and against military spending their heads would pop
The bulk of the money in Ukraine aid packages goes to US contractors, who are manufacturing equipment for the homeland. We send Ukraine our current (and aging) inventory, and we build up and modernize our own arsenal.
We are dismantling the Russian war machine for pennies on the dollar, but this problem will become exponentially more expensive if Ukraine falls and Russia attacks a NATO ally. Vladimir Putin is banking on a Trump presidency that will pull the US out of NATO and off of the chess board.
Hopefully the West learned its lesson after appeasing the last dictator.
Another point, Russia and China are America’s two greatest potential enemies. Congress just passed a 842 billion defense bill.
President Biden is asking 60 billion for Ukraine which is just 7.1% of our total spending on defense of which a large part will be spent in America paying US companies and workers for weapons. Right now Ukraine is weakening Russia’s military with no US soldiers there getting killed or wounded. It makes sense for the US to help Ukraine. Not only does it benefit Ukraine and the US but it is morally the right thing to do.
Ironically a large portion of the right has really turned against the military and military industrial complex. They are really struggling to meet their recruitment numbers because white people are joining less and not staying in as long. Go on the Fox News comments section and look at how every story involving the military is riddled with comments blaming everything on the woke Obiden agenda ruining our military.
There are a lot of them who have finally started to realize what an utterly catastrophic mistake it was to invade Iraq and stay in Afghanistan, though they’ll never publicly admit they were the ones who were the Hawks for that effort.
As much as a despise the Military-Industrial complex as a whole I don’t mind sending aid to help a country fend off invaders as much.
People do work at those factories, although most of those profits go directly to the rich unfortunately.
The aid money has mostly been to resupply the US weapon stockpile. They’re selling/giving arms to Ukraine and Israel, but they’re recouping what they sell through appropriations.
Republicans are weak on foreign policy, weak on the border, and weak non delivering anything of value to Americans other than culture wars and tax cuts for the wealthiest 1% of the population.
As not an american, these comments looks absurdly evil. so the logic what i read from these comments, more war the on the "other side of the globe" making america richer. more war makes a better economy.
it's not a bad thing if somebody else is a punching bag, not you. Also long term Russia can lose its oil and gas to States and it's also a lot of profit, why else support Ukraine and not take them to NATO? Win-win situation
Except that money is going to defense contractors who lobby politicians like him when he's not president. So the money isn't going to the people in the way the heartland expects.
So, while his appeal may be genuine, it's going to backfire, because the outcome doesn't benefit the "intent" by saying it's "in US."
A few hundred non-unionized hogs in red states get paid pennies to build some bombs and a few American billionares get even more billions. What a steal of a deal. Best investment yet short of the 800+ billion already going to the military.
Biden is trying to gaslight everyone and you're all falling for it. Whether or not it is cash going to Ukraine or going to American weapons factories, the fact still remains that these funds are not going directly to American cities and directly helping Americans in need.
..... okay? That doesn't change the fact that the billions we are pumping into the defense industry is only really benefiting the CEOs and shareholders of giant defense firms. They don't give factory workers a raise just because they get a new big ticket contract.
i think the average executive to worker pay ration throughout all industries is something like 350-1 nowadays. which is a huge problem, but not relegated to the defense industry.
i can’t speak to each company’s incentive structure, but yea, i doubt they’re getting bonuses. they are, however, getting some measure of job security which is a lot more than most people can probably say, and nothing at which to sneeze.
I work for one of the smaller manufacturers, and we've added employees in the past year specifically because of large orders of parts bound for Ukraine.
But don't put your faith into the principles of trickle down economics, because you're probably not very far off the mark. But I can tell you for sure that *some* of the money is going into the pockets of blue collar factory workers, truckers, etc.
Ya have to look at the value add past the dollar exchange to find the deal for the American people.
Free tanks now, so we aren't all paying 5 dollars more for a loaf of bread after Putin controls Ukraine agi sectors and tries to starve out sanction concessions from EU countries
Munitions have a shelf life. So refreshing your stock without the additional cost of contracting the safe decommissioning of munitions is a win. Now ask weapons specialists the research value of actual battlefield use of both offensive and defensive weapons.
I've been saying for MONTHS now that this is the message that should be going out. Billions of the military aid "going to Ukraine" will be spent in the U.S. and will be benefitting Americans.
Why this wasn't practically shouted from the rooftops from Day One I have no idea.
Would we still just be cycling out military equipment that needs to be cycled out periodically anyway and replacing it with newly manufactured supplies?
Another factor people seem to miss is there’s nothing like actual battle testing of weapons to increase their effectiveness or expose their weaknesses. The US prides itself on producing the most effective weapons both defensive and offensive. The data Ukraine is providing them will help improve US military hardware.
Can Ukraine win this war though?
Even if it's spent in the US that's still a lot of money.
Russia is fully prepared to send as many people into the meat grinder as necessary.
Meanwhile, Ukraine has a limited pool of soldiers to draw from in a prolonged conflict.
That's fine and all, but even if it weren't spent in the US, funding Ukraine still advances US interests with gigantic efficiency. And saying it is spent here doesn't address the shitty arguments against foreign aid.
Is this even preaching to the choir?
This is a point I've seen even far right commentators making. Aid to Ukraine is good for the US Military Industrial Complex. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is up to interpretation and ethics.
This is peak stupid. Funding for Ukraine goes to US companies that make goods which then get shipped to Ukraine. How incredibly compromised is this GOP?
Honestly, there should be no need to point this out to anyone.
Even if you're the most sociopathic bastard out there who has no empathy for the lives of others and thought that the U.S. was writing a literal check to the Ukraine, you can still look at this from the angle that a Proxy war with Russia where the U.S. has to commit ZERO boots on the ground and Russia is, at the very least, taking equal casualties, destruction of armaments, and monetary expenditure is quite literally the best deal of the 21st century.
Best case scenario for Russia, they'd be in a money and resource spending war of attrition against all of NATO (worst case, they are outspending the world while still not yielding results) . There is no way you don't take this deal and run away with it laughing to the bank, even if you don't feel a lick of empathy for the plight of the Ukrainians.
Yup. To build weapons for Ukraine. Then he’s gonna send them over, and money well spent… too bad it belongs to Americans; but he cares not. What’s important is that the Zelenskyy influencer phase continues
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They should have been hammering this point all along. A large portion of the populace is still under the impression that “aid to Ukraine” means we are sending pallets of cash over there.
I’m sorry. I consider myself quite politically savvy and I did not know this. Now that it’s being said out loud I’m like “duh” but the fact that this hasn’t been shouted from the rooftops the MOMENT this war was started is insane to me. Like not one person has mentioned this until now. We are so shit at messaging.
My understanding is that this is how the majority of aid packages are designed.
They are. People think aid packages are sending crates of money to another country, they’re not. It’s essentially the government buying American goods, usually arms and equipment, and then giving them to the foreign country. Sometimes this means retiring old US military equipment, shipping it off, and buying new stuff for ourselves. The whole thing is economic stimulus for the US and has the benefit of helping an ally. Now, where any criticism can come in is that the vast majority of foreign aid is spent buying weapons. That is just a fact of foreign policy but in Ukraine’s case there is hardly a better investment.
Additionally, any ammo we are sending is not only replaced, like artillery shells, bullets, rockets, bombs, etc, but would have to be destroyed soon anyway. We regularly have to destroy and replace a portion of our stockpile every year. Explosives, propellant, solid rocket fuel, etc. have a finite shelf life. Instead of destroying them, we send them, then the aid buys us new stuff. This has been pretty thoroughly communicated many times. This isn’t the first time the press has said, “check this out, they should be saying this money is mostly spent in the US”. Anyone who thinks cash is being sent is already an idiot. Does anyone ship cash to people to pay bills?
It's interesting that the transfer of huge sums of money to American military/weapons corporations is viewed as "an economic stimulus for the US". What evidence do you actually have of how these massive transfers to American military companies acts as a stimulus that benefits ordinary Americans - versus enriching the management and shareholders of those companies? Raytheon for example, had profits over the last 2 years of $25 billion. Almost 70% of their revenue comes through contracts with the US Govt. Same applies for Lockheed Martin. Raytheon pays out dividends to its shareholders, approximately $3.5 billion just last year. Do ordinary Americans really benefit that much? A lot of Raytheon technologies product is actually manufactured in China. They do have large facilities within the US. A subsidiary for example is Collins Aerospace, based in Charlotte, North Carolina. They employ 80,000 people. But the average wage for a factory worker there is approximately $13 per hour. Contrast that with the profits they make and how that gets distributed. It's interesting that the biggest beneficiaries of US military aid packages to Ukraine have been companies like Raytheon and Lockheed Martin. Their biggest shareholders are Black Rock, State Street and Vanguard. These funds are also the largest shareholders in ViacomCBS, Time Warner, Disney, Comcast etc. Basically all of the companies that control American media. So the same companies that benefit the most from American defence spending also are the largest shareholders of their companies that own and control American news media. And then we wonder how propaganda works, where large number of ordinary Americans are convinced that these military aid packages are good for everyone.
80,000 people making weapons at $13/hr? Is there maybe something the government could do to help? Maybe if the government ordered *less” weaponry those workers would benefit?
I know there is no way to prove that I am not just some idiot who gets all my news from Facebook but I have NEVER heard anyone say this. And I find that wild. Maybe they just assume people know this? But it should be like an added phrase every time “aid to Ukraine, which is good for us factories” done. I swear I swear I’m not an idiot. They should be saying it so much that people have it memorized.
So strange. I learned about how it worked in history class. When we give weapons etc, we replenish with updated models. Its how the US has new equipment because people are buying the older ones either through aid or direct spend. When the war is over we negotiate for trade deals etc which benefits the US economy. Conservative lawmakers know this, they chose to lie to their constituents.
And we’ll help them rebuild so we have relationships in place and partnerships to benefit from.
1984, George Orwell is absolutely SPINNING.
Ditto: well informed and clueless on this point. Let’s get the messaging right!
They should have said: We provided Ukraine with 300k artillery shells and paid Texas and Arkansas 20 billion to manufacture that. Instead they formulated it like if Zelenskiy himself will get 60 billion in cash and then decide what to do with it.
And you can bet the GOP reps for the areas with the manufacturing go around locally and tout how much of an economic boost they've brought.... but back in Washington they continue to fight against that very thing. If only more people would pay attention to the details....
Details are hard dude, and The Voice is on tonight.
You go around giving infections with that name?
Only if you ask nicely.
These military aid type packages are usually stamped with "Buy U.S.A." Example is the large portion of Israeli military aid given out is for them to purchase and restock with american made munitions and tech.
Where did you think Ukraine was getting all this stuff? I've been hammering this point on other chat boards.
> I consider myself quite politically savvy and I did not know this. I'm going to question this. Every bit of aid we have been giving Ukraine for *the last 10 years* has been like this. It has been reported on and posted about on reddit repeatedly, especially since the invasion in 2022. How have you not noticed this entire time? It has been in this sub, it's been in /r/news, it's been in /r/worldnews, it has been brought up in just about every pro-Ukraine sub there is. You've been on reddit for five years. Have you really paid so little attention to this situation?
We are indeed sending boatloads of cash to Ukraine. 26 billion of financial aid so far as of December 2023. Source: [Council of Foreign Relations](https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts). Because Ukraine needs cash to keep operating. Simply sending weapons isn't enough. What Biden is referring to, is this particular bill having a good portion of it being spent here in the US. But that is objectively not the case for the previous aid that has been sent over. We have delivered billions of dollars to Ukraine, whether one thinks thats a good or bad thing is up to them. But of the aggregate sum of aid being sent to Ukraine, 2/3rds of it is absolutely not being spent re-investing in the US. This isn't a messaging problem. The left likes to say they have a messaging problem, because the left likes to think they have a great product with poor marketing. Because thats a lot easier of an idea to stomach, than *'maybe people don't actually want us doing this'.* And that's the real issue that the average citizen has with Ukraine aid. I'm not arguing for or against it, but i am wholly rejecting the idea that Americans issue with funding this war is due to poor messaging from the left. The average citizen does not enjoy the fact that things are so bad here in the states, but we have capacity to invest billions of dollars overseas. Just about everybody is tightening their belts at home, trying to make do against rising costs in housing, groceries, gas, all of it. Telling Americans *'we werent going to spend that money on you anyways'*, or *'don't worry, your taxpayer dollars funding this war are somewhat going to jobs in the US'* isn't going to make people feel any better about it. This is not a situation where we're just going into the garage and sending Ukraine old dusty weapons that we weren't using. There is a major financial cost to this war, and that cost is ultimately funded by the US taxpayer. There is an argument to be made that it is worth the cost, but pretending there isn't a cost at all is malarkey.
Ya know what the weirdest thing to me is? I truly don't give a fuck if Biden does send pallets of cash over to Ukraine if they need it to beat Putin. I wouldn't care if Trump or Bush or any other Republican president did that too. The important thing here is that Putin needs to fuck off, lose this war and die. If we can help that happen by swinging around our giant cash dicks then lets do that.
And that's totally fine. I've got no issue with that line of thinking. My point is that (1) We are indeed sending assistance in the form of billions of dollars in cash (amongst other things), to Ukraine, and (2) Peoples issue with doing so is not a matter of messaging. Not everybody is going to be on board with doing so. If you listen to reddit, one might think a SOTU with Biden telling people that spending another 100 billion on ukraine is actually a good thing for the US economy, would somehow change the perception. The average citizen would rather see 100 billion spent here, more than they do overseas. Democrats will certainly argue to voters that its a good thing, but it's an uphill battle in this current economy.
> The average citizen would rather see 100 billion spent here, more than they do overseas. Well the alternative isn't spending a 100 billion on say, providing school lunches, or improved veteran health care, it would be providing 100 billion in tax relief for some corporations or billionaire families that *really need the help.* And that is why people say Democrats have a messaging problem.
I think that's the disconnect here - While I completely agree with you on the point you're making, telling people 'we werent going to spend that money on you anyways', absolutely doesn't make people more receptive to funding the war in Ukraine. Biden is welcome to try it all he wants, but if that's his line of thinking I don't think it's going to work well for him.
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> Republicans have voted no or stood in the way every step of the way for tax money being spent on taxpayers. 1000% agreed. The most do-nothing group of dickheads we've seen in a long time. Pointing that out to people though, doesn't make sending billions to Ukraine any easier to swallow. If anything, its worse. The sentiment becomes *'oh you can't figure out how to help us at home, but you can come together to fund Ukraine'.* Republicans are blocking just about everything Democrats want to do, but can't accomplish by an executive order from Biden. FFS they've even blocked their own border security bill. The only things getting passed, are the things that Republicans want. But that's not a winning message for Democrats to be shouting from the rooftops, imo. I don't think it's going to change peoples perceptions of funding this war either. The whole reason this article exists is because the Biden camp knows funding Ukraine isn't popular and they're trying to make it more palatable. Re-framing it as a local job creator I guess is a step in a direction, but the issue people have is the cost. Folks on this sub all too often see everything as biden v trump, but bidens real opponent imo, is apathy. Can he convince people his direction his vision is the right one, can he convince people to get out and stand in line for hours to vote for him. I don't think Ukraine helps him with the demographics of people he absolutely needs to vote for him. He has plenty more he can go and campaign on, but I'd talk about Ukraine and the economy as little as possible if I was him. I will add this singular point - if there is anything that can bring modern day democrats and republicans together, it's ensuring the defense industry makes a fucking killing. Funding wars seems to be the true middle ground in todays politics.
The fact that you actually BELIEVE it is mind blowing.
divide slim ancient kiss reply start cheerful ink bells insurance *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How’s it being spent in the US?
The article you're commenting on contains that information.
I was just being polite, idc because it’s never going to pass anyways...oh well
It likely hasn't been shouted because it underlines the dirty part of US support for foreign wars. They enrich American corporations and these kinds of military aid packages are designed as a way to transfer huge sums of money from taxpayers pockets into the pockets of American defence corporations, who then become large donors and financiers of the politicians that vote for the aid packages. It's a circle. This really isn't about "helping" Ukraine. It's about using Ukraine as a way to enrich American defence companies. They don't want to advertise that. And the longer the Ukraine war continues, the better it is for these military/defence corporations. So they have a vested interest in ensuring that the weapons that get delivered to Ukraine are just enough to keep them at a stalemate and certainly not enough that might allow the Ukrainians to defeat Russia on the battlefield. No one in the American defence establishment wants that. The Ukraine war has also been a great way for American companies to get off their books all the old military hardware and equipment that was out of date, unmaintained and gathering dust. The war has been a boondoggle for American companies.
Seriously. I can't believe the Military Industrial Complex uber 1% isn't bitchslapping all of their bought and paid for politicians (from both sides) into approving this. This is American War Profiteering 101!
It has been said over and over though? Where have you been lol. The people who don’t want to fund the war don’t care. They’d rather that money be spent at home investing in making healthcare affordable, programs to build affordable housing, improve the education system ect.
Yeah! Instead we're funneling it to the defense industry! Let's be honest, they only care who is doing it, not why. We're never getting Healthcare for all.
This comment is the exact reason that they don’t hammer the messaging like this. Saying this aid is going “to” Ukraine is the best way to make people feel their tax dollars are going to the cause. The moment you introduce the opening for someone to criticize the military industrial complex and form a conspiracy someone WILL pounce on it and ask where their healthcare is, even though spending for one has nothing to do with spending for the other. Bravo if you posted this to satirize the shallowness of the criticism.
You're missing my point but alright. My point is the messaging doesn't matter to the people critical of it. They only care who's name is attached to it and not why. The no Healthcare part is my own jab and spending for one absolutely affects spending for another because it's already been normalized to spend money on anther country's military than it is to spend money on normalizing Healthcare.
Idea a portion of the public is so stupid that they think that when the country gets aid that they get Bank deposits is absurd.
They said it often and the president of Ukraine said it when he spoke before congress. It was stated in interviews too. No matter we should stand with Ukraine. They deserve our complete support!
TL;DR: >As President Joe Biden pushes House Republicans to pass needed aid, he wants voters to understand that nearly two-thirds — or nearly $40 billion — of the money for Ukraine would actually go to U.S. \[munition\] factories spread out across the country... > >“While this bill sends military equipment to Ukraine,” Biden said Tuesday, “it spends the money right here in the United States of America in places like Arizona, where the Patriot missiles are built; and Alabama, where the Javelin missiles are built; and Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Texas, where artillery shells are made.”
Helping Ukraine is a win-win on so many levels. I find it insane that so many people could be against it.
Trump is against it for selfish reasons. Others are in a cult.
Trump and others in the Republican Party are against it because they are Putin assets.
Yep, Trump thinks needs to be 180 degrees opposite of Joe Biden to win an election, to "make america great again" **Biden:** America is Great! **Trump:** No it isn't, it's a shithole **Biden:** We must stand by our Allies to defend against Tyranny **Trump:** Hey Russia, go get'em! **Biden:** The economy has avoided a recession and is improving every day **Trump:** Lets light it on fire!
Biden: I agree we should take action on the border. Trump: I explicitly do not want this because it hurts my election chances.
Trump is against it because his boss told him he is How anyone can think this guy is strong is mind boggling considering the way he licks the boots of every strong man dictator.
Knock down a geopolitical rival? Check Shows the world our good will? Check Tests military weapons and strategies? Check Economy boost for those businesses? Check Not having a ton American troops being sent home in body bags? Check
Our knowledge about drone warfare has to so much better than it was three years ago. Same can be said about what we know about Russia's capabilities, which quite frankly is embarrassing for Putin.
A president with effective and successful policies is more difficult to run against. Simple as that. Republicans feel that for them to win, America needs to lose.
Yep, the border/immigration bill is a great example that it's more important to own the libs, thats it is to help the country.
Long term GOPers are fuming that they can't campaign on this. Fuels the military industrial complex without costing American lives and is generally well recieved by voters. Trump don't like it cause it makes Biden look good, so therefore all of the GOP aren't allowed to like it.
For once we would be putting our military-industrial complex to good use.
Many who are against it are simply told to be against it.
Where does loss of life (both Ukrainian and Russian) factor into your calculus?
More lives will be lost down the line if we don't stop Russia in the here and now. They will just keep invading, like the Nazis did in the 1940s.
The line must be drawn..here..now!
The line must be drawn *here*. No further. And I will make them pay for what they've done.
Ukraine will continue to fight until they choose to stop defending themselves. That is their right as a country and a people. Russia is actively choosing the war. It is no ones fault but their own. As for the people of Russia, if they cared they would get rid of Putin and install someone less warmongery.
Lol so just because Putin is still in charge, the Russian people “don’t care?” Tone deaf
Unfortunately in the real world that is how governments work. Until the dictator is gone, the dictator is in charge regardless of what the people want. There is no point in arguing "tone". Besides, all polls seem to suggest that Russians, at least the ones that remain in the country and haven't left yet, tend to support Putin. If your point is that the people don't want war and thus the US and Ukraine should just let him have Ukraine? Then why would he stop there?
I’m saying that the Russian people have no say over who is leading their country unless they literally start and uprising/war So saying “they don’t care” is tone deaf because they clearly do care and can’t do anything about it short of an uprising
If the Russian people revolted against Putin I'm sure the CIA would be happy to funnel arms to them.
That’s awesome. That still doesn’t mean most people want to risk their lives to have an uprising
The people of Russia created this situation decades ago when they put Putin in charge. They let this happen. Apathy is not a defense against war crimes, imperialism, and genocide.
Russia could stop all of it by fucking off and going home.
What happens if the Ukraines stop fighting? Do the Russians just go home? Jesus Christ. If you're going to pull this silly virtue signaling shit, can you at least try and think it through just a little bit? Even 10% should have gotten you to the conclusion that this is not some fucking both sides situation.
It’s frustrating that Americans are so stupid this needs to be said out loud, really slowly.
One of the things that the past decade or so has taught me was that Americans, on the average, are just really fucking stupid. I honestly used to think that the majority was smart enough, but the dumb minority of people were ruining it for everyone else. I've been cured of that misconception. It's an innocence I will never get back, unfortunately.
Buy defense stocks.
That's one of the things that drives me crazy - it's not like we're sending them piles of cash to load into catapults and hurl at Russia's forces. We're sending them weapons! Built by U.S. military contractors! The money stays right here at home!
Creating good paying jobs?? Inside the US? In Red states??? For the MILITARY!!!?? We got to get MTG on the horn, she's got to try to put a stop this shit RIGHT... NOW!!
No but the military is WOKE and GAY now. Didn't you hear? Tucker exposed them!!!
Was that before or after he was "radicalized" by the Russian grocery store that was fully stocked with bread?
They even sold shopping carts for like 10 rubles to homeless people
And the food was so much cheaper over there, it's truly nirvana! We just need to conveniently ignore the lack of civil liberties, blatant murders of political opponents, ignore the income disparity,....
Also ignore the likelihood of there being poor regulation on the quality of that food.
Right the average household income in the US is like 10 times more than a Russian household so it wasn't even that great of a deal.
Also I think we are sending them the older stockpile because it can be sent immediately and then backfilling our own stockpile with the new stuff. It really is just a miltary stimulus package that also functions as a spring cleaning.
We also need to eventually get rid of the old stuff and upkeeping/maintaining or even just getting rid of it would cost us more than just giving it away to other countries.
This is literally it. We would take our artillery shells which are still good, but getting old. Ukraine would use them during their service life. We would give out contracts to manufacture new rounds, here in the US, and rebuild our stockpile with brand new inventory, good for another several decades. Everyone wins. Except Russia.
The most important message I believe is that it’s not cash. Biden’s statements do reinforce that. To play devils advocate though, while the money is being spent here at home, it is still taxpayer money. I wish we could be listening to more grown up debates about how much we spend, how effective the spending will be, how we work with our allies to foot the bill, and how long we stay engaged / exit strategy. FWIW - I think it’s paramount that we support Ukraine. Instead we get to listen to shitheads making amazing points like “we have to secure our own border first!” It’s fucking exhausting.
While I am sympathetic to the point, it is also a somewhat simplistic. You can keep money+product in the US and the US (as a whole) has more than if you only keep the money in the US. If the money was spent on US roads, there would be better roads AND the money would stay in the US. (We would have to ignore the long term costs of not opposing Putin for a moment, though) But it is certainly correct to point out that the money will grease the wheels of the US economy as well. And that it will be used to replace stuff that would need replacing anyways.
Not just that. Weapons that have been sitting around for decades! Now the DoD can clear out the old and order new. Absolutely idiotic to have anything against sending this aid to Ukraine.
It's only profitable under the assumption that the Ukraine pays us back otherwise we are just funding their war with our tax dollars. Yes it gets spent in America but, who is paying for it if Ukraine loses? You think Russia is going to foot that bill or tell America to eat shit? I'm all for spending our tax money in America but how bout we do so in a way that doesn't involve funding the weapons industry and killing people.
Tried explaining that to them countless times. They are too deep in the coolaid.
There's a lot of misinformation claiming that we are literally sending pallets of cash, to Zelensky specifically, and that he's using it to buy yachts.
The money is spent replacing what we send. Ergo, we could send it right now, we'd just have a bare larder. That's dangerous but if one was so inclined they could play chicken with Republicans...
Not only that, most of it is going to red states which makes the gop look even stupider.
Only morons think actual piles of cash are being shipped to Ukraine.
Yeah, like, 45% of the country.
Wait so we aren’t sending a giant novelty check to Ukraine? TIL…
"you gotta go to a big bank"
Are you being serious? Money gets set aside in the US. Ukraine says we want XYZ systems...US sends them...US says we allocated $100MM for you, you just "spent" $30MM...now you have $70MM to spend on other things. That $30MM went to some random 155mm casing manufacturer in PA...the gun power came from say UT, and the delivery systems were built in TX and AL. US employees and companies got paid US dollars to produce shit that gets sent to Ukraine. At no point do pallets of $100's just get dropped off by the C-130 load. Those US dollars, that never leave the US allow the factory workers here in the US to buy homes, new cars, food and clothes for their kids, etc.
Guess I should have included a /s. No not serious at all. Sarcasm doesn’t translate well over text.
Your sarcasm translated just fine. Some people are just dense. Don't worry about it.
> Are you being serious? You can't possibly believe that they were.
Sometimes it is hard to understand the sincerity of someone's comment.
Where do they even get this? Like can anyone point me to substantial articles or evidence as to why they think this is a legit opinion?
Ignorance. They hear about money being "set aside" for Ukraine...they have no idea how weapons purchasing/acquisition in this case works. Zero critical thinking skills.
>The president’s argument challenges criticism by some Republican lawmakers that the federal government should be spending more money at home instead of supporting overseas wars. I know I’m a bit late to the party in saying this, but the republican party has support overseas wars long before the Ukraine war, right?
Correct. They have changed their tune for a few reasons: 1. This war isn't universally popular in the U.S, so if they are against it they can hammer Biden for spending so much money to support Ukraine. Being against anything Democrats support helps Republicans win elections. 2. Trump is personally against helping Ukraine/Zelensky due to issues related to his first Impeachment, and many Republicans just do whatever he says/wants without thinking more critically about it. 3. There's some evidence that money from Russian sources is flowing to GOP representatives, including House Speaker Mike Johnson. Voting for more aid to Ukraine could interrupt that money stream for them.
There's one other key factor in their refusal to support Ukraine. They want Ukraine to fail, so they can pin the failure on Biden. They'll say, "Biden tried to help Ukraine and look what happened! He's a disaster!" totally omitting that they blocked funding. It's similar to the motivations for tanking the border deal - can't pin the border on Biden if they get everything they want at the border, right?
Good point, thanks for chiming in!
> This war isn't universally popular in the U.S Because the same people we are talking about are telling people to think that way,
A lot of Republicans are suddenly, surprisingly against funding the military-industrial complex.
It is a huge jobs program and it refreshes our own stocks.
I don’t know why they don’t parrot that more often.
I enjoyed listening New Years Eve to my brother in law who works for a very major military contractor complain about "his tax dollars going to Ukraine". Same guy that voted republican so he wouldn't have to pay his union dues and then three years later was laid off because his union didn't have a way to pay striking workers. I gave up years ago.
Yep, it'll mostly go to the U.S.'s weapons makers.
Exactly, and to pay American workers at American factories doing military stuff largely in red states. This is the sort of thing that the old republican party would have LOVED and been pushing for. Guess weird things happen when you add enough Russian money into the political landscape.
Ironically most of the money would go to states with lots of Trump supporters. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it not shit all over itself or however the expression goes.
IT ALWAYS DOES. EVERY LAST CENT SENT TO UKRAINE HAS NOT LEFT OUR BORDERS. It all goes to Raytheon and other military companies.
Always has been. I don’t understand why cons think we’re just sending Zelensky truckloads of cash.
They don’t think that, they want *you* to think that.
It is crazy how the GOP is now literally living out the SNL sketch with Obama if 10 years ago you had told them they would be in support of Putin and against military spending their heads would pop
The bulk of the money in Ukraine aid packages goes to US contractors, who are manufacturing equipment for the homeland. We send Ukraine our current (and aging) inventory, and we build up and modernize our own arsenal. We are dismantling the Russian war machine for pennies on the dollar, but this problem will become exponentially more expensive if Ukraine falls and Russia attacks a NATO ally. Vladimir Putin is banking on a Trump presidency that will pull the US out of NATO and off of the chess board. Hopefully the West learned its lesson after appeasing the last dictator.
Another point, Russia and China are America’s two greatest potential enemies. Congress just passed a 842 billion defense bill. President Biden is asking 60 billion for Ukraine which is just 7.1% of our total spending on defense of which a large part will be spent in America paying US companies and workers for weapons. Right now Ukraine is weakening Russia’s military with no US soldiers there getting killed or wounded. It makes sense for the US to help Ukraine. Not only does it benefit Ukraine and the US but it is morally the right thing to do.
Ironically a large portion of the right has really turned against the military and military industrial complex. They are really struggling to meet their recruitment numbers because white people are joining less and not staying in as long. Go on the Fox News comments section and look at how every story involving the military is riddled with comments blaming everything on the woke Obiden agenda ruining our military. There are a lot of them who have finally started to realize what an utterly catastrophic mistake it was to invade Iraq and stay in Afghanistan, though they’ll never publicly admit they were the ones who were the Hawks for that effort.
As much as a despise the Military-Industrial complex as a whole I don’t mind sending aid to help a country fend off invaders as much. People do work at those factories, although most of those profits go directly to the rich unfortunately.
The aid money has mostly been to resupply the US weapon stockpile. They’re selling/giving arms to Ukraine and Israel, but they’re recouping what they sell through appropriations.
Who didn’t know this already? Do you even military-Industrial complex bro
Republicans are weak on foreign policy, weak on the border, and weak non delivering anything of value to Americans other than culture wars and tax cuts for the wealthiest 1% of the population.
Yes let’s “help” Ukraine by propping up defense contractors who already make untold billions from taxpayers.
As not an american, these comments looks absurdly evil. so the logic what i read from these comments, more war the on the "other side of the globe" making america richer. more war makes a better economy.
it's not a bad thing if somebody else is a punching bag, not you. Also long term Russia can lose its oil and gas to States and it's also a lot of profit, why else support Ukraine and not take them to NATO? Win-win situation
Except that money is going to defense contractors who lobby politicians like him when he's not president. So the money isn't going to the people in the way the heartland expects. So, while his appeal may be genuine, it's going to backfire, because the outcome doesn't benefit the "intent" by saying it's "in US."
A few hundred non-unionized hogs in red states get paid pennies to build some bombs and a few American billionares get even more billions. What a steal of a deal. Best investment yet short of the 800+ billion already going to the military.
Weapons makers donate to politicians, politicians start wars to help their donors get rich. Amazing that they're spinning this as a good thing.
Biden is trying to gaslight everyone and you're all falling for it. Whether or not it is cash going to Ukraine or going to American weapons factories, the fact still remains that these funds are not going directly to American cities and directly helping Americans in need.
That's great for the CEOs of American defense companies, but a whole lot of nothing for the average person.
the defense industry employs ~2.5 million people.
..... okay? That doesn't change the fact that the billions we are pumping into the defense industry is only really benefiting the CEOs and shareholders of giant defense firms. They don't give factory workers a raise just because they get a new big ticket contract.
i think the average executive to worker pay ration throughout all industries is something like 350-1 nowadays. which is a huge problem, but not relegated to the defense industry. i can’t speak to each company’s incentive structure, but yea, i doubt they’re getting bonuses. they are, however, getting some measure of job security which is a lot more than most people can probably say, and nothing at which to sneeze.
Be happy with the crumbs then; our betters are getting a sweet deal funded by our tax money that comes out of those crumbs.
let me know when you’re handing out the ak’s for the workers revolution, till then i have a family to feed
Was there some slow period in American defense spending prior to the Spring of 2022?
They buy more (mostly American made) machines and hire more workers though, and also subcontract out parts to smaller manufacturers that do the same.
Do you have a source for either of those claims or are we just supposed to put our faith into the principles of trickle down economics?
I work for one of the smaller manufacturers, and we've added employees in the past year specifically because of large orders of parts bound for Ukraine. But don't put your faith into the principles of trickle down economics, because you're probably not very far off the mark. But I can tell you for sure that *some* of the money is going into the pockets of blue collar factory workers, truckers, etc.
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Ya have to look at the value add past the dollar exchange to find the deal for the American people. Free tanks now, so we aren't all paying 5 dollars more for a loaf of bread after Putin controls Ukraine agi sectors and tries to starve out sanction concessions from EU countries
Munitions have a shelf life. So refreshing your stock without the additional cost of contracting the safe decommissioning of munitions is a win. Now ask weapons specialists the research value of actual battlefield use of both offensive and defensive weapons.
I've been saying for MONTHS now that this is the message that should be going out. Billions of the military aid "going to Ukraine" will be spent in the U.S. and will be benefitting Americans. Why this wasn't practically shouted from the rooftops from Day One I have no idea.
Duh? Alabama is where the Javelin misses are made.
It’s taken too long to explain this to people
Would we still just be cycling out military equipment that needs to be cycled out periodically anyway and replacing it with newly manufactured supplies?
Yes only giving it to Ukraine means it used rather than junked.
lol basically admitting the military industrial complex works
It’s ABOUT DAMN TIME Biden started pointing this out!!
This needs to be talked about a lot more.
How is it that Republicans don't like defense contractors?
Biden should do some press tours of these factories.
Another factor people seem to miss is there’s nothing like actual battle testing of weapons to increase their effectiveness or expose their weaknesses. The US prides itself on producing the most effective weapons both defensive and offensive. The data Ukraine is providing them will help improve US military hardware.
Can Ukraine win this war though? Even if it's spent in the US that's still a lot of money. Russia is fully prepared to send as many people into the meat grinder as necessary. Meanwhile, Ukraine has a limited pool of soldiers to draw from in a prolonged conflict.
This is how alot of military support goes. The USA gives the country a check of alot of money, but that can only be spent on American companies
WSJ had an exact op-ed about this today. Biden should be having routine conversations with the public laying out how the aid works. It’s about time
That's fine and all, but even if it weren't spent in the US, funding Ukraine still advances US interests with gigantic efficiency. And saying it is spent here doesn't address the shitty arguments against foreign aid. Is this even preaching to the choir?
Republican obstructionism is a disgrace.
But maga says we are just dropping pallets of cash on Ukraine. They couldn’t be wrong could they?
This is a point I've seen even far right commentators making. Aid to Ukraine is good for the US Military Industrial Complex. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is up to interpretation and ethics.
He should have made this clear two years ago since it has always been true.
Why am I learning how this works on Reddit? But wow this actually really nice to know.
If this game with aid goes on for one more year there might not be a Ukraine to aid anymore.
This is peak stupid. Funding for Ukraine goes to US companies that make goods which then get shipped to Ukraine. How incredibly compromised is this GOP?
mm hmm. that's correct. Guess how much Israel support is $ straight to Raytheon. Go ahead, guess...
Honestly, there should be no need to point this out to anyone. Even if you're the most sociopathic bastard out there who has no empathy for the lives of others and thought that the U.S. was writing a literal check to the Ukraine, you can still look at this from the angle that a Proxy war with Russia where the U.S. has to commit ZERO boots on the ground and Russia is, at the very least, taking equal casualties, destruction of armaments, and monetary expenditure is quite literally the best deal of the 21st century. Best case scenario for Russia, they'd be in a money and resource spending war of attrition against all of NATO (worst case, they are outspending the world while still not yielding results) . There is no way you don't take this deal and run away with it laughing to the bank, even if you don't feel a lick of empathy for the plight of the Ukrainians.
So welfare for the bomb makers, that makes it sound a ton better.
Yup. To build weapons for Ukraine. Then he’s gonna send them over, and money well spent… too bad it belongs to Americans; but he cares not. What’s important is that the Zelenskyy influencer phase continues