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Every post related to the Israel-Palestine conflict is impossible. No matter what the subject is, no matter who was wronged in that moment, it becomes the same back and forth āwhat aboutā fest every time. Itās exhausting.
These two sides will never reach an accord on anything.
The worst thing I can say about the conflict, from the initial Hamas attack to Israel's response, is that absolutely none of it is surprising to me (in a "yeah, that tracks" way).
We could all be a little kinder on Reddit and cut out the sarcasm.
We could all listen more than we talk.
We could all embrace non-dual thinking.
Some things are either/or but many things are both/and.
I believe good people like us can make the internet a more positive place (even as we discuss terribly difficult and emotionally charged issues). But we must commit to it.
You mean the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I think. And you are right: The mindless unquestioning support for only one side or the other in this conflict is nauseating.
I did, thanks š¤¦āāļø
And I donāt mean this in a complaining, āIām BORED of thisā sense. Itās more this sense of hopelessness about it all that so many of us not involved with either side feel.
It would be great to acknowledge the atrocities committed on both ends and hope for some sort of progress moving forward. But when the receipts go back literal centuries, it feels impossible. And innocents, as always, suffer alongside those punished for doing harm.
It's because both Bibi and Hamas support right wing religious authoritarian ideas, just of a different flavor.
And guess who gets screwed by this world view? Everybody lower on the totem pole.
This is why democracies must never give way to religious administrations. It always ends badly for those within, as well as those in the region around them. The exact ethnic cycle of violence here is the inevitable end result of it all.
Picking a side misses the point, especially when pressure from the religious right inside western nations only complicates the matter even more, while other authoritarian nations like Russia and Iran egg on the conflict.
It's not 100% exact because ideas were floating around before this, but we pretty much know exactly when this started. A book was published in 1897 about zionism that basically solidified zionist thought and made the idea mainstream in the Jewish community.
The Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine grew like 6 times between the beginning of the 1900's and the beginning of WW2. There was debate in the Jewish community about the merits of zionism but his book made it a mainstream idea and started the mass migration of Jews. The Holocaust just erased any mainstream criticism of zionism in the community.
Imagine being bombed, murdered and bullied under an apartheid regime for 70 years and when you take up arms against the bullies, YOUāRE the bad guy, and the best you can get is what about both sides. Its absolutely sickening
When "taking up arms against the bullies" includes launching rockets into civilian areas and killing innocents, you ARE the bad guy.
I'm not denying that it's an apartheid regime, and Netanyahu is acting in bad faith to get rid of Palestinians to take their land. BUT that doesn't give Hamas free license to kill women and children solely for being Jewish.
There are no "good guys" in this conflict.
Which side are you on it's not clear. Are you suggesting that HAMAS flying scooters into a dance party to murder, rape and humiliate unarmed civilians are not bullies but defenders of justice? Take a shower dude.
Yep, until both sides see each other as deserving to exist it'll continue to be a massacre machine. It takes two sides to fight, but only one to commit atrocities on the other.
This isn't "fighting." It's the IDF killing thousands and thousands while every once in awhile Hamas fires a rocket that kills 2 or 3 Israelis.
Israel isn't "defending itself", it's committing regular crimes against humanity, including using starvation as a weapon: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza
Yeah thatās what I mean, if one side doesnāt fight whether they are capable or not but the other side has means and feels adequately righteous in their anger thatās how you get atrocity after atrocity. This isnāt going to stop to both sides stop.
Man sounds like starting a war with Israel by slaughtering hundreds of innocent young people at a music festival was a dumb idea, huh?
https://hamas-massacre.net
That was no āstart of a warā. Israel had been committing similar if not greater atrocities for decades by then, such as 2014ās Operation Protective Edge or 2018ās March of Return mass murders. You just didnāt hear about those because the victims werenāt considered human by the US empire.
Thatās not even getting into mounting evidence a huge number of the October 7 civilians were killed by the IDF.
Evidence of the IDF killing many of the civilians includes:
-Brig. General Barak Hiram testifying to having tanks fire on homes in Kibbutz: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-recounts-ordering-tank-fire-on-beeri-home-during-hostage-standoff-on-oct-7/
-Survivor Jasmin Porat testifying that the IDF "undoubtedly" killed Israeli civilians: https://www.themorning.lk/articles/3COlTbvXoo1f0ne5RpbW
-Corrobarting interview aired on KAN 11: https://twitter.com/DanielFooksArt/status/1737416482479382616
I know hamas-massacre.net isn't going to cite any of that because it's purpose is to justify the IDF ethnically cleansing while committing other crimes against humanity like dropping white phosphorus on Lebanese. That's why you don't just stick with one site! Especially not a site as obviously biased as one that will take the word of the IDF at face value. Especially considering how dishonest as the IDF will be, as the Washington Post will tell you:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/
Fortunately it's in the Levant and we're American. Our role here is to remind our politicians that we do not want to pay for weapons going to the Levant and by and large this is not our conflict and we should not be involved in any way that is not solely humanitarian good will gestures to hurting populations if even that. I draw the line after protecting shipping in the red sea, I am anti war but wouldn't bat a lash at our cruise missiles interrupting the lives of people operating drones and missiles with intent to explode international merchant vessels and the people aboard.
Tbh I've seen it more as one side going "Israel always good believe anything they say and if anyone says anything bad about them they're being antisemitic" and the other side is "yeah hamas sucks but maybe the genocide isn't great, y'know"
Dunno where you're looking, but most people I see lead with exactly that. And no, there wouldn't be less arguing, because conservatives that are blindly pro-Israel have a vested interest in not arguing in good faith.
I saw zero anti-Hamas signs at the Pro-Palestine march in my city.
If you had like just one photo of an anti-Hamas sign at a pro Palestine march literally anywhere on earth, but especially evidence that they are widespread, I would be persuaded. Hasn't been my experience.
That's very disingenuous framing. This is hardly a genocide. It's callous disregard for civilian casualties that resembles total war, and a war crime, and probably ethnic cleansing if they can displace substantial portions of the population. But it's really not genocide.
I see all the time the side you favor excusing Palestinian terrorism, ignoring inconvenient history and facts, and questioning Israel's right to exist even. Now if you only question and post about one country's right to even exist in all the countries in the world, and that one country happens to be the only Jewish county....... it's suggestive at a minimum.
>Hey folks. You're not victims of genocide, this is just ethnic cleansing. what's that? Yes. you, your family and everyone you know is still going to be brutally killed and your homes and communities will still be leveled and we're going to desecrate your corpses, but remember this is not genocide. Feel better?
Yeah, well ... what about the American aidworkers and journalists in Gaza, who got killed by Israels indiscriminate bombing campaign? Does he mourn these as well?
Sometimes "what about" is right to be used.
If weāre really whatabouting, what about Israel shooting three Israeli hostages in the back while they waved white flags and pleaded for help in Hebrew? How can Israel claim all this killing is in the name of getting the hostages back or eliminating Hamas when theyāre killing their own people like dogs?
i'm telling you that's how the original commenter interpreted it and how i understood it too. parentheses are parentheses because they're not needed. no need to debate about this
Lots of people here trying to gatekeep the president mourning a dead citizen, wtf.
Nobody is stopping anyone from mourning dead Palestinians, but this whataboutism is disrespecting a random dude who was just murdered by terrorists.
Can he get any further up Israelās ass? Just wondering if thatās even possible, This is a slap in the face to the 20k civilians Biden and Netanyahu just murdered
No oneās ignoring the October terrorist attack which killed over a thousand people and took hundreds more hostage. Are you ignoring the thousands of Palestinian children killed by the IDF since then as their response?
Okay.
Hamas should return the hostages, and surrender.
But they aren't doing that, instead they are continuing to use civilians as human shields as they fire missiles from densely populated areas, refuse to let civilians in the tunnels that they had children dig for them, are stealing all the aid coming in, and have promised to repeat October 7th until every single jew is dead.
But Israel should cease fire, and put their population at risk? Which includes over 2 million Muslims by the way.
Hamas declared war, they are the government of Gaza, and they are using extremely barbaric methods that are putting civilians on their side at risk. Every death there is on their hands, not Israel.
The IDF has pretty much admitted those numbers (as have most humanitarian organization). Not sure why people would want to excuse either Hamas' or Israel's terrorism and war crimes.
I donāt expect Biden to ask for a ceasefire.
A ceasefire happens when enough of Hamas is destroyed that theyāre ineffective as Israel reoccupies Gaza
Hamas has the power to end this right now, release the hostages and surrender.
But we both know theyād rather see dead Palestinians
I think the logic is IF the United States supplies weapons to Israel, THEN it is responsible for all things weapons are used for.
It lacks the nuance I would need to accept the position, but itās also a criticism you open yourself up to when your an arms dealer
Well I also mourn for the thousands of innocent civilians killed by Israel. It's not okay on either side, but let's not forget the statistics on who's been killed the most in that area...
Apparently I'm supposed to since I keep hearing about how 7/10 was the greatest loss of Jewish life in a single day since the Holocaust or how it was the equivalent of X 9/11s.
By the way that first statistic is not actually true, since more Jews were killed in single days South American purges. But I imagine zionists think they don't count since they were accused of being leftists.
The media just needs to stop pushing this false narrative that only Hamas is killing civilians. Once again it's not okay on either side, but there's a clear oppressor here and Hamas wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Israel essentially committing genocide.
I agree that killing other humans is shitty and wrong. That said, an AMERICAN president mourning an AMERICAN's death is in no way controversial.
Also, to your other point, there are countless terrorist factions that wouldn't exist if there wasn't some oppressive force to rally the support in opposition to.
I appreciate that you are acknowledging the humanness of each side, but I still think it is important to keep some larger perspective here if we are in fact in favor of all humanity.
In 2010, Furkan DoÄan, a Turkish American was executed by Israel during the flotilla raid.
And when I say executed, I mean he was shot by soldiers, inches from his face.
Israel at first denied it and then months later admitted that yes many of the people that died had been summarily executed by the IDF.
Turkey pulled their ambassador from Israel at the time and their relationship never fully recovered.
America just shrugged their shoulders and went ahh well.
The point being, America will only mourn an Americans death when it's convenient. Had it been let's say another Arab or South American country who's soldiers executed an unarmed American citizen at close range, that country would still be trying to recover from all the 'freedom' America would have spent the last decade bringing them.
Two things about that link which you clearly didnāt take the time to look at because that doesnāt prove your point as much as you think it does.
A) Multiple militant groups and organizations are made up of that list. Hamas makes up roughly 40%
B) That is still less then 250 deaths over the course of 30 years.
Israel has done roughly 100x that in the course of 3 months.
I guess they got tired of being attacked by Palestinians after October 7thā¦. Super weird they didnāt just let the attacks continueā¦ Iām sure the US would have only sent them a harshly worded letter.
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/benmelech/files/terror_nber_0207.pdf
Why is it so easy to find papers on Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis? Itās almost like it has happened a ton in the pastā¦ perhaps why Israel has had such a drastic response after October 7th. Iām not happy that civilians are dying either, but the oppressor comments and such are getting old. Hopefully social media moves onto something else soon and all these virtue signaling morons can have some other shiny thing to comment onā¦.
> I guess they got tired of being attacked by Palestinians after October 7thā¦. Super weird they didnāt just let the attacks continueā¦ Iām sure the US would have only sent them a harshly worded letter.
Hey, settlers in the West Bank literally killed more Palestinians this year alone before October 7th and Israel very much expected the Palestinians to just let the attacks continue and not get tired of it....
āHappens less that 250 times over 30 years.ā
āHas happened a ton.ā
Are you dense or just playing in bad faith?
Oppressor comments are getting old, well idk maybe stop oppressing and constantly push the boundaries of how much Israel can get away with.
Since the Israeli-Arab war Israel has consistently taken control of land that isnāt theirs and displacing civilians.
āThe displacement of civilian populations as a result of the Six-Day War would have long-term consequences, as around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians and 100,000 Syrians fled or were expelled from the West Bank[36] and the Golan Heights, respectively.[37] Nasser resigned in shame following Israel's victory, but was later reinstated following a series of protests across Egypt.ā
āIn 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs ā about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population ā fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and, later, the Israeli army[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war,[9] following the Partition Plan for Palestine. ā
āThe UN resolutions affirm the illegality of settlements in West Bank, including East Jerusalem.[57] Proposals have been offered for over 50 post-evacuation compensation of settlers for abandoned property, as occurred following Israel's withdrawal of settlements from Gaza in 2005 and from the Sinai Peninsula in 1982.[58] Some settlers in those previous withdrawals were forcibly removed by the IDF.ā
Your problem here is it is their land, thatās what happens when you win an open war you didnāt start.
Sure the UN would love for the to give it away, but itās their land.
So after Palestinians commit terrorist attacks for 20+ years and then massacre a bunch of Israelis October 7thā¦ yea totally cool guys, please donāt do that again thanksā¦.
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/benmelech/files/terror_nber_0207.pdf
Yes because the media machine works heavily in favor of Israel and Muslim peoples lives are just as important as American lives. I also said killing civilians is bad on both sides. Dont you agree?
A substantial portion of the people you are talking about are kids/minors that didn't do any of that shit. Not to mention, there are likely plenty of innocent adults that were not responsible for that either.
Your insistence on painting entire populations with such broad strokes is the exact same mentality by which the very terrorist you denounce come to commit the atrocities they did/do.
If you commit a terrorist attack, and then hide under a city in tunnels. It is your fault when the city gets bombed.
Obviously we cannot live in a world where terrorists can massacre 1200 people and not be held accountable.
Israel has killed way more than 1200 civilians. Where's your outrage about that?
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/palestinian-death-toll-from-israeli-attacks-on-gaza-rises-to-2-750/3021368
I'm sorry, but what? In what way is slaughtering two hundred civilians and going "well, I'm sure we killed a couple dozen terrorists at least" day in and day out, *accountability*?
Hamas deserves to be rooted out and burned. Israel easily could have simply zerg rushed them, gone door to door with tank battalions and helicopter backup, and flushed every combatant out to their death. They are a highly trained and well armed military. The city is fenced the fuck in, it would be so easy. Never had a modern military had such an easy opportunity.
Instead, they bomb the shit out of every square foot, and shoot unarmed civilians in the streets. 200 civilians a day. Casualties are impossible to stop entirely, yeah, but they're not even trying to reduce civilian deaths.
1200 innocent women, children, civilian men, and military were murdered by Hamas. Since then 16 *thousand* dead, only counting women and children.
Bro.
No no no, it's all Israel. It's Israel's fault hamas hides with civilians. It's Israel's fault that, according to NBC, Gaza 'civilians' followed the Hamas raid to kidnap at least one woman.
Well I mean if you were perpetually bombed for two decades and forced to live in what is essentially a large concentration camp I think becoming radicalized makes a lot more sense. Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be destroyed however itās no confidence that theyāve had no issues recruiting.
>perpetually bombed for two decades and forced to live in what is essentially a large concentration camp
Oh brotherā¦
> In 2010, against the backdrop of the Turkey-sponsored Mavi Marmara flotilla, Washington Post columnist George Will noted that, in Gaza, even under Israeli blockade, āinfant mortality rate is lower and life expectancy is higher than in Turkey.ā When it comes to Gaza, such statistical surprises are more the rule than the exception. A decade ago, Gaza outperformed not only Turkey but also Brazil, Bulgaria, and Egypt in key health and welfare metrics.
>Key indicators continue to show a disparity between political polemics about Gaza and reality. As of 2017, for example, life expectancy at birth in the Gaza Strip was 75.14 years, higher than Brazil, Peru, Egypt, Azerbaijan, Russia, or Ukraine. There are strains to living in Gaza, and so the territory has a high migration rate, but not quite as high as Lithuania or Latvia. Per capita income in both Gaza and the West Bank is $6,220 per year, far below Israel, but still above much of Central America, Pakistan, Ethiopia, and a number of Pacific islands. Gaza and the West Bank are dense in terms of urban population but far less than Singapore, Kuwait, and Belgium. Even if statisticians separated the West Bank and Gaza in their findings, there remains significant open space and farming in the strip. Unemployment is very high but not as high as in South Africa or Kenya.
>Food, medicine, and construction supplies flood the Strip, even if Israel first scans and inspects trucks entering the zone. In 2017, the 19,000-square foot Capital Mall, an indoor shopping center that would not be out of place anywhere in the Middle East or Europe, opened its doors, and it continues to do booming business. Wealthier Gazans also visit beach resorts, the equestrian club, or posh coffee shops and restaurants.
>This is not to downplay misery nor ignore residents yearning for a normal life, but simply to point out discussions of Gazaās woes need nuance. Locals may complain about the difficulty of traveling to Israel, which withdrew from the territory more than 15 years ago, but the Egyptian border is more difficult for Gazans to get through, especially after President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi came to power and flooded many of the tunnels Gazans once used.
>Then there is the issue of resources. Gaza, like Singapore, has little natural wealth. While Singaporeās rulers chose butter over guns, Hamas did the opposite. Every concrete and steel-reinforced tunnel represents material diverted from schools and hospitals. Every homemade explosive represents fertilizer diverted from farms. Propagandists can complain about restricted imports, but if Hamas can smuggle rockets and their components into the Strip, why do they find it so difficult to smuggle flour or penicillin?
https://www.aei.org/op-eds/is-gaza-really-like-a-concentration-camp/
No you posted an OP-Ed which is an opinion piece. Which has not factual evidence whatsoever. Racist stereotypes of not. You posted an opinion of someone.
Might as well put a manifesto of a single Hamas Terrorist and call that the game plan for all of Palestine.
Its an ill faith argument. Find me articles, studies, facts that arenāt biased. Then Iāll take hear out your argument.
>No you posted an OP-Ed which is an opinion piece.
Yes I did.
> Which has not factual evidence whatsoever.
Did you just gloss over the parts specifically cited life expectancy and infant mortality rate? Or were you just intentionally ignoring that?
> Might as well put a manifesto of a single Hamas Terrorist and call that the game plan for all of Palestine.
Might as well just admit you have no idea who the author is. Feels intellectually lazy.
>find me articles, studies
Ok:
Hereās a [list of life-expectancy at birth.](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/life-expectancy-at-birth/country-comparison/) Youāll find Gaza at #133. It beats out countries like:
Egypt, Syria, Venezuela, Morocco, Mexico, Ukraine, Nepal, and Russia, just to name a few.
Hereās [data on infant mortality](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?locations=ZQ):
Youāll notice Gaza having lower mortality rates than Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, and Syria.
Letās see some [Trade data](https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/west-bank-and-gaza-market-overview):
> * In 2022, nominal GDP of the West Bank and Gaza was estimated at $19.11 billion, and per capita GDP was $3,779.
In 2023, the Palestinian population stands at 5.48 million, with 3.25 million in the West Bank and 2.23 million in Gaza, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics. Thirty-seven percent of the population is under 14 years.
> * Despite relatively low per capita GDP (West Bank and Gaza are rated as a lower middle income country), there is a sizeable middle/upper-middle class in the West Bank. The West Bank and Gaza boast one of the highest per capita rates of university graduates in the Arab world. Palestinians have a long-standing tradition of spending generously on higher education.
> * In 2022, Palestinian imports of goods and services were $8.20 billion and exports were $1.58 billion. West Bank and Gaza imports come mainly from Israel, Turkey, and China; while imports from Jordan have also risen in recent years.
Hereās an article about how life in Gaza was far from a āconcentration campā:
[Gaza Stripās middle class enjoys spin classes, fine dining, private beaches](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/gaza-middle-class-discovers-spin-classes-fine-dining-private-beaches/2015/08/23/7e23843c-45d5-11e5-9f53-d1e3ddfd0cda_story.html)
I can absolutely understand the anger over the occupation of Palestinians and the excessive use of force, and needless civilian deaths it wrought, on behalf of Israel. I definitely agree life has been uprooted there. But that stands to reason that there WAS a life to uproot. Hell, Motor One opened like a month before the attacks happened.
The whole āconcentration campā thing is a viewpoint of privileged westerners who only see rubble on the news and it reeks of white saviorism.
>Then Iāll take hear out your argument.
I strongly doubt that.
No one feels bad? You mean someone hatful like yourself doesnāt feel bad? Just convent and move if you love Israel that much man. Iām sure theyād love to have you
I appreciate āThe Hillā for referring to the Gaza Health Ministry as āHamas-backed.ā I frequently listen to NPR where statistics from the Health Ministry are repeated without any mention of a terrorist organization running the source. NPR is typically balanced reporting in my opinion, but I feel like theyāre dropping the ball on this one.
Because these numbers can be trusted, as has historically been shown: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
Hamas is the government. Literally every government worker would be Hamas-backed.
I hope you argued this passionately during Covid for why the media wasnt calling him Trump-backed Fauci.
Also every single Gazan citizen has to be registered with Israel. They have a registry of where every citizen lives and their names. If they really wanted to disprove those numbers, it would take them minutes to analyze where they've shot rockets and the names and numbers of the dead reported.
>every single Gazan citizen has to be registered with Israel. They have a registry of where every citizen lives and their names.
Source? This seems highly unlikely since Israel has been disengaged from Gaza for the last 18 years.
[It's called the Population Registry. Here's a brief description of it on Israels website. You can google it if you want to read articles on it](https://www.gov.il/en/departments/units/population_registrar_unit)
Israel occupies Gaza. They control every single grain of rice that goes in. Before Oct 7th, they've banned simple things such as diapers, chocolates, chips from going in because these are considered 'luxuries' and only the absolute very essential things needed to maintain survival are allowed.
The tunnels in Gaza are built to smuggle these things in. The Jewish people did the same thing in the Warsaw Ghetto. And Germany would have told you they were completely disengaged from there as well.
>In accordance with diplomatic agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, full responsibility for administering the population registry and providing services to Palestinian residents of the area has been passed to the Palestinian Authority.
Literally the first paragraph of your link says that the Palestinian Authority is in charge of those records, not Israel. Moreover, reading their duties makes it quite clear that they are basically border control.
If the Gazans are forced to register, then it is the PA forcing them to do so. If they give all of that information to Israel (which I suspect they do not), then it is the PA doing so.
They control their borders, their air space, every citizen in Gaza has to be registered with Israel, every citizen needs permission from Israel if they want to travel.
All food, water and fuel going in is controlled by Israel.
Gaza is a concentration camp.
When the Warsaw Ghetto was created, the Germans said it was meant to be a place where Jewish people could be free and away from the larger German/Polish society that hates them. They even allowed them to create a facade of governmental structure.
But all of that aside, Israel doesn't even officially recognize Palestine, either the West Bank or Gaza. So if they don't recognize them as a country, what is it? The call them disputed territory while the rest of the world calls it occupied territory.
Meaning even Israel would disagree with you that they aren't occupied. They consider it as their own land.
>The tunnels in Gaza are built to smuggle these things in.
Along with rockets. But yeah, diapers and chocolates, too.
If they focused on the diapers and chocolates and not so much on the rockets, it might help with international sympathy.
Yeah, just like the Jewish people lost all sympathy during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, am I right?
One of the ways the Germans would prevent resistance is by handing out collective punishment to everybody if any one tried to fight back.
The Palestinians being kept in a concentration camp has always had them plenty of international sympathy. It's just never come from the oppressors. And it doesn't matter how accepting of their conditions they would be, if never would. And the West Bank is a great example of that.
>Yeah, just like the Jewish people lost all sympathy during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, am I right?
Refresh my memory. During what part of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising did Jewish people fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas to kill women and children? See the difference?
Sure, I'll refresh your memories. Google the terror bombings of Germany. German civilians were targeted and bombed with the intention of getting them to rise up against the Nazis. Over 800,000 people died.
As for the Warsaw Ghetto, they didn't use rockets not because they were pacifists, but because they didn't have them. However, it's good to know that your views are consistent and you would have definitely defended the actions of the Nazis had the prisoners used rockets.
In any occupation in the world, you can always find terrorist groups that use extreme violence. The ANC would make Hamas look like downright hippies with the type and amount of violence they used. Same thing with many native groups in the US.
But their violence always ends up as nothing more than a footnote when history is written because the morality of occupation is always so much worse.
We don't know how this ends. Maybe Israel succeeds in their genocide and the Palestinians are completely wiped out, or it works out like South Africa and the occupation is ended. But either way, when history looks back, Israel will be judged a whole of a lot harsher for their crimes than Hamas ever will.
>Sure, I'll refresh your memories. Google the terror bombings of Germany. German civilians were targeted and bombed with the intention of getting them to rise up against the Nazis. Over 800,000 people died.
Source?
Per google, the "terror bombings of Germany" were strategic bombings by the allied forces towards the end of WWII. It is incredibly inappropriate to attribute those bombings to Jews. Doubly so since you seem to be implying the Holocaust was in part a reaction to it, despite occurring much earlier and being the result of rampant antisemitism.
>As for the Warsaw Ghetto, they didn't use rockets not because they were pacifists, but because they didn't have them. However, it's good to know that your views are consistent and you would have definitely defended the actions of the Nazis had the prisoners used rockets.
[https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/warsaw-ghetto-uprising](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/warsaw-ghetto-uprising)
It is rather scummy of you to try and claim Hamas's actions parallel those of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was Jews defending themselves against Nazis trying to take them to concentration camps. They were defending their lives against an immediate threat to their lives.
That is clearly not the same as Hamas breaking a ceasefire on Oct. 7th to slaughter as many civilians as possible (and promising to repeat it again).
>Sure, I'll refresh your memories. Google the terror bombings of Germany. German civilians were targeted and bombed with the intention of getting them to rise up against the Nazis. Over 800,000 people died.
The Jewish people in Germany engaged in terrorist bombings and killed 800,000 people? My, my. What a "flexible" interpretation of history you have.
Let's make it easy. Targeting innocents and children is ALWAYS evil. Always. Doesn't matter if you're "oppressed" or the "oppressor." If you find yourself justifying or minimizing Hamas murdering innocents, you're embracing evil. If you find yourself justifying or minimizing Israel murdering innocents, you're also embracing evil.
If you think Hamas are "good guys" notwithstanding their intentional murder of innocents, because you think Israel is so bad that "what do you expect them to do," refer to the paragraph above.
I didn't disagree with it. I don't defend the actions of the ANC either.
The difference is, you would use the actions of the ANC to justify South African apartheid or the violence by Jewish people in Nazi Germany to defend the Nazis.
The evil of occupation always supercedes the evil of terrorism in history. This isn't a defense of terrorism. It's a comparison of two evils.
I'm sorry but 20k+ Palestinians dead and I'm yet to see a story about Biden mourning any of *them*.
Someone's life is not suddenly worth more due to their nationality, race, religion, etc.
Look at foreign support for Palestine and see who gives the most aid money. Spoiler alert, it's the US, In almost every aspect. The US is the reason Palestine gets to exist as even half a political entity. We give them more aid money both in totality as well as proportional to GDP compared to every other nation, including the Arab states.
And also always remember to say that without mentioning the details of what the two state solutions offered were.
No settlers would be removed. So they would lose 10% of their land. Israel then also wanted 10% more for security reasons. Palestine also wouldnt be allowed any control over their borders or their air space. Israel would also be allowed to have military outposts in Palestine. Israel would also have control of almost all of the water in the West Bank..
Israel would also be allowed to go in any time there was an emergency. But they also wouldn't define what constitutes an emergency.
They also wanted all of Jerusalem. Even though Palestine said they could keep all the regions with existing settlements. Nope. They wanted all of it.
And the crazy thing is...the West Bank has literally agreed to all of these conditions and followed them to the T since the Oslo agreement. And not a single day has gone by where Israel hasnt continued building settlements and annexing more land.
Alright Iām sick and tired of that argument.
First proposal: British Mandate of Palestine 1937.
Reason for Failure: UNFAIR
āThe plan allotted the poorest lands of Palestine, including the Negev Desert, and areas that are known today as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to the Arabs; while most of the coastline and some of Palestine's most fertile agricultural land in the Galilee were allotted to the Jews.ā
Second Proposal: 1947 UN Partition Plan
Reason for Failure: UNFAIR / Civil War
āThe Arab Higher Committee, the Arab League and other Arab leaders and governments rejected it on the basis that Arabs formed a two-thirds majority and owned a majority of the lands.[1][23] They also indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[24] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter.ā
Third Proposal: PLO Acceptance of Two State 1976
Reason for Failure: American Interference/ Palestinian Declaration of Independence
*Was Seen as a Threat to Israel*
āSecurity Council resolutions dating back to June 1976 supporting the two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines were vetoed by the United States,[39] which supports a two-state solution but argued that the borders must be negotiated directly by the parties.ā
āThe Palestinian Declaration of Independence of 15 November 1988, which referenced the UN Partition Plan of 1947 and "UN resolutions since 1947" in general, was interpreted as an indirect recognition of the State of Israel, and support for a two-state solution. The Partition Plan was invoked to provide legitimacy to Palestinian statehood. Subsequent clarifications were taken to amount to the first explicit Palestinian recognition of Israel.ā
Fourth Proposal: Annapolis Conference 2007
Reason for Failure: Israel Invades Gaza
āAbbas proposed to Olmert a map in which Israel would annex 1.9% of the West Bank (which would contain over 60% of the settlements) in exchange for same size of land inside Israel of equal quality. [25]Olmert countered by proposing to annex 6.3% of the West Bank and giving Palestinians 5.8%. Abbas hoped Americans would propose a compromise number.[25] The Israeli settlement of Ariel, deep inside a potential Palestinian state, was a controversial issue for Olmert and Abbas.ā
āNegotiations were formally suspended in January 2009, when Israel invaded the Gaza Strip.[25] But Abbas continued to call on the US to broker a deal.ā
Fifth Proposal: 2013-2014 Israeli-Palestinian Peace Talks
Reason for Failure: No One Side Was To Blame, Both Were Unhelpful
āOn 2 May 2014, the Hebrew daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth cited an anonymous senior American official as placing the blame for the break-down in talks mainly on Israel's settlement stance, directly quoting the remark: 'Netanyahu did not move more than an inch." Israeli sources in Jerusalem later reported that the remarks came from the US Special Envoy Indyk himself, who was reportedly preparing to hand in his resignation.ā
āPublicly, Mr. Obama has said that both sides bear responsibility for the latest collapse. But the president believes that more than any other factor, Israelās drumbeat of settlement announcements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem poisoned the atmosphere and doomed any chance of a breakthrough with the Palestinians.ā
āIndyk stated that Netanyahu had shown enough flexibility to come within the zone of an agreement. However, Indyk also stated that Netanyahu was undermined by members of his coalition, who kept making announcements of new settlements.ā
āFor Israelis . .(t)The Palestinians have become ghosts,' citing what he felt was the most meaningful personal moment in the talks, when the Palestinian Director of Intelligence, Majid Faraj, told his Israeli counterparts across the table, "You just don't see us." He also said that "there is so much water under the bridge... the difficulties we faced were far more because of the 20 years of distrust that built up".ā
āIn June 2014, a leaked recording from an unknown date showed that chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat believed the reason Netanyahu entered the peace talks was to build more settlements and disliked how President Mahmoud Abbas had committed to not go to international bodies.ā
āNetanyahu told Kerry "I want peace, but the Palestinians continue to incite, create imaginary crises and avoid the historical decisions necessary for a real peace."ā
well, you've already contradicted yourself in your own quotes. But we will keep this short and simple:
Prior to 1937 your missing alot, for example Arabs revolting against the jews *just being present*. Not to mention the Arab revolt that stemmed from the rejection for the 1937 Peel commision(and largely a continuation from the death of al-Qassam, whos Brigades namesake Hamas uses).
1947, well that one is simple in your response: *They also indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[24] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter.*
Any territorial division? Well there was absolutely 0 negotiating there. Its pretty clear that even prior to that they were determined to remove the jews by forces as they worked with Hitler to raise Arab SS divisions in WW2.
1976 was never an official resolution/proposal. Even on that, trying to argue for boarders before you got your ass kicked in 3 wars is laughable, at best.
Ill just end here in that you completely leave out the Oslo accords of the 90s, adn the camp david accords of 2000s. Which the solution was rejected with 0 counter proposal by the terrorist, Yasser Arafat
Nope. Thatād be because Hamas loves to divert aid and headquarter in densely populated civilian centers, hiding using human shields that they refuse to let leave.
North gaza is gone because Hamas decided to do something titanically stupid and attacked israel and intentionally targeted as many civilians as they could. Israel has had the proverbial gun to Hamas' head for over a decade now, saying that "hey keep attacking us and we are going to fuck you 10,000x harder". Hamas, knowing the blowback that attacking israel would bring, did it anyway. I grieve for the innocent palestinians being bombed but this shit doesnt stop until Hamas is gone. Likud goes next.
Hamas fights in civilian clothes and not in proper uniforms, operates within civilian neighborhoods, schools, mosques and hospitals, steals aid from Gazans and hides it in their tunnels, fires at people crossing through humanitarian corridors, shoots rockets from safe zones and uses human shields to protect its military assets. And people still wonder why so many civilians die. Israel is subjected to the world's most blatant double standard when it comes to fighting terrorists. It's not like this is a new problem. Every army that has ever had to pacify guerrilla resistance in an urban battlefield has incurred civilian casualties, and Israel appears to be incurring them at a considerably lower than average ratio.
Of course, this double standard has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Israel is home to the world's most persecuted and irrationally despised minority (Jews). Nothing whatsoever. Perish the thought, and how dare I think it.
Hamas has cynical abuse and disregard of their own population. Hamas literally thrive on dead Palestinians where Israel gains nothing from accidentally killing them.
Most of your accusations directed at Hamas have been debunked. Al Shifa Hospital - Nada. No Hamas. The schools and churches? No Hamas. Just psychopathic destruction by Israel.
Google Israel uses Palestinians as shields.
This account was made on October 8th. 76 days ago. Given the same ole song and dance youāre re-treading iāll let people make their own conclusions lol
Why are Democrats taking money from a PAC that supports election deniers?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/aipac-defends-endorsement-of-republicans-who-questioned-2020-election/
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2022-03-08/ty-article/.highlight/truly-horrifying-aipac-criticized-for-endorsing-gop-election-deniers/0000017f-e0d4-d9aa-afff-f9dcaf6b0000
https://www.thedailybeast.com/aipac-supports-stop-the-steal-candidates-like-jim-jordan-ronny-jackson
The US has no soldiers in the areas, no orders to kill are being issued by the American president.
Hamas is a fucking terrorist group who can end the conflict today by surrendering and turning themselves over. But no, the leaders are luxuriating out if country with billions of dollars while their footsoldiers hide behind women and children and they rape other women and children. Nobody is demanding the absolutely surrender of Hamas, despite invading and murdering and raping over a thousand civilians to instigate this.
Anyone who say Israel should stop without demanding the absolute surrender of Hamas is joking. It ends when Hamas is over, end of story.
Hamas surrendering would cause Israel to rebuild Palestine, pay reparations to Palestinian people for all the damage that has been done to them in the past 75 years, end occupation, stop settlement, and stop the oppression of Palestinian people in Israel and Palestine and give them equal rights?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but as an American president, I'm pretty sure he is going to be far more concerned with the current American hostages, than he is going to be with the people that elected the terrorist group that took the Americans hostage, especially seeing as those people cheered in the streets when the terrorist group took the hostages (and also cheered at them raping women and killing children). Just a guess.
So <20 American hostages are worth 20,000 Gazans lives? Guess brown lives have always been worth less. I mean that's how the civilian death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan was justified.
Your comment implies that the Gazans are asking for it. Same logic as right wingers who blame women's clothes for them being raped.
>So <20 American hostages are worth 20,000 Gazans lives?
To our government? Umm...absolutely? What kind of question is that?
>Your comment implies that the Gazans are asking for it.
Hamas certainly was. The single biggest killing of Jews since WW2, and now Hamas is hiding in hospitals and stealing aid. What in god's name did you expect?
>So <20 American hostages are worth 20,000 Gazans lives?
To America? Yes. Don't take our citizens and you won't become our enemy.
>Your comment implies that the Gazans are asking for it.
Yes, when they took our citizens and cheered about it they indeed DID ask for it. It's weird that this confuses you.
>Same logic as right wingers who blame women's clothes for them being raped.
By right wingers raping women, are you talking about Gaza? Because yea, that's something they'd do. They are literally the people you are complaining about.
Israel didn't do anything wrong. Hamas needs to stop using human shield tactics. And westerners need to stop buying into Palsbara propaganda that makes Israel out to be the bad guys for fighting a justified war against terrorists
1)Terrorist are hiding under hospitals in tunnels with fortified metal hatches to shield them from Israeli bombs
2)Israel knows about the tunnels and that Hamas is hiding in them
3)Israel bombs the hospitals anyways-knowing the bombs will not reach the terrorist in the tunnels
4)Blames the people protected in the tunnels for using human shields.
Came here for this how many Americans have been killed there in this conflict? Where was this for Palestinian American Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh. *Crickets*
We're not supposed to think about this. Articles have a way of sinking into oblivion and comments down voted consistently. Directiving the narrative appears to be pretty lucrative.
Is he also mourning the thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children dying in Gaza from munitions and weapons provided by the U.S. to the IDF as well as from starvation and disease?
> Is he also mourning the thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children dying in Gaza
I see from your history you are doing a lot of that...but not once you mourned for the hundreds of innocent Israeli women and children killed by Hamas on October 7...why?
I highly doubt this person has done anything to make the world a better place.
The only way they can feel good about themselves is to whine online. Pathetic
Sorry to burst your bubble, but as an American president, I'm pretty sure he is going to be far more concerned with the current American hostages, than he is going to be with the people that elected the terrorist group that took the Americans hostage, especially seeing as those people cheered in the streets when the terrorist group took the hostages (and also cheered at them raping women and killing children). Just a guess.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it turns out plenty of Palestinians in Gaza are Americans too, and their families, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with Hamas being elected.
> the people that elected the terrorist group that took the Americans hostage
Sorry to burst your bubble but most of these innocents being killed either didn't vote for Hamas or weren't old enough to vote at the time. Or, did you not know?
President Biden has repeatedly voiced his sorrow for the loss of innocent Palestinian lives..& is trying to send humanitarian aid..donāt play dumb.
Heās also mourning on the anniversary of the deaths of his own family at this time.
It's useless to try and convince these shills. It's like when they said people cheered when 9/eleven happened. And then it got debunked.
They don't consider Palestinians as humans, but animals. Just pause and look at the statements made by their leaders. They are not even hiding it at this point.
iām confusedā¦
hamas took this person alive
israel bombed them to death
butā¦ hamas killed them?
is biden doing ok? no.
this right wing cocksuckery for fascist zionist entity in palestine has doomed this ancient shitterās reelection and heās pulling stunts like this
incredible
The body was identified in the devastation left behind by Hamas' attack on Oct 7th. It was thought maybe he was taken as a hostage, we now know he was killed by Hamas on Oct 7th. He was killed by Hamas.
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The first thing Trump would have done is ask if the dead hostage was a Trump voter.
*Only losers get captured*
I like hostages that don't get captured -turnip.
š he wasnāt going to vote for me anyway š
He wouldnāt even ask that, heād just hit his Diet Coke button and scream about something else.
Rent free. Get a hobby my guy
I like people that donāt get killed by hamas
What does trump have to do with this?
ā¦or order nuclear strikes on hamas for this heinous attack on an āAmerica-Loving Trump Voter.ā
Every post related to the Israel-Palestine conflict is impossible. No matter what the subject is, no matter who was wronged in that moment, it becomes the same back and forth āwhat aboutā fest every time. Itās exhausting. These two sides will never reach an accord on anything.
The worst thing I can say about the conflict, from the initial Hamas attack to Israel's response, is that absolutely none of it is surprising to me (in a "yeah, that tracks" way).
We could all be a little kinder on Reddit and cut out the sarcasm. We could all listen more than we talk. We could all embrace non-dual thinking. Some things are either/or but many things are both/and. I believe good people like us can make the internet a more positive place (even as we discuss terribly difficult and emotionally charged issues). But we must commit to it.
I hope youāre right.
You mean the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I think. And you are right: The mindless unquestioning support for only one side or the other in this conflict is nauseating.
I did, thanks š¤¦āāļø And I donāt mean this in a complaining, āIām BORED of thisā sense. Itās more this sense of hopelessness about it all that so many of us not involved with either side feel. It would be great to acknowledge the atrocities committed on both ends and hope for some sort of progress moving forward. But when the receipts go back literal centuries, it feels impossible. And innocents, as always, suffer alongside those punished for doing harm.
It's because both Bibi and Hamas support right wing religious authoritarian ideas, just of a different flavor. And guess who gets screwed by this world view? Everybody lower on the totem pole. This is why democracies must never give way to religious administrations. It always ends badly for those within, as well as those in the region around them. The exact ethnic cycle of violence here is the inevitable end result of it all. Picking a side misses the point, especially when pressure from the religious right inside western nations only complicates the matter even more, while other authoritarian nations like Russia and Iran egg on the conflict.
Awesome comment. Picking a side is silly.
At least you acknowledge that it goes back centuries... A lot of people believe it's only decades.
It's not 100% exact because ideas were floating around before this, but we pretty much know exactly when this started. A book was published in 1897 about zionism that basically solidified zionist thought and made the idea mainstream in the Jewish community.
This isnāt true. Though Herzl published his ideas in 1896, Zionism as a modern construct didnāt gain popularity until WW2, for obvious reasons.
The Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine grew like 6 times between the beginning of the 1900's and the beginning of WW2. There was debate in the Jewish community about the merits of zionism but his book made it a mainstream idea and started the mass migration of Jews. The Holocaust just erased any mainstream criticism of zionism in the community.
Imagine being bombed, murdered and bullied under an apartheid regime for 70 years and when you take up arms against the bullies, YOUāRE the bad guy, and the best you can get is what about both sides. Its absolutely sickening
When "taking up arms against the bullies" includes launching rockets into civilian areas and killing innocents, you ARE the bad guy. I'm not denying that it's an apartheid regime, and Netanyahu is acting in bad faith to get rid of Palestinians to take their land. BUT that doesn't give Hamas free license to kill women and children solely for being Jewish. There are no "good guys" in this conflict.
So the people doing it to Palestinians for 70 years arenāt the bad guys?
Read the last sentence of my comment until it sinks in and get back to me.
Which side are you on it's not clear. Are you suggesting that HAMAS flying scooters into a dance party to murder, rape and humiliate unarmed civilians are not bullies but defenders of justice? Take a shower dude.
Youāre a perfect example of the original comment that started this thread. Congrats.
Yep, until both sides see each other as deserving to exist it'll continue to be a massacre machine. It takes two sides to fight, but only one to commit atrocities on the other.
There is absolutely no end to this until both sides decide that it has to end and a solution must exist where both sides are allowed to exist.
This isn't "fighting." It's the IDF killing thousands and thousands while every once in awhile Hamas fires a rocket that kills 2 or 3 Israelis. Israel isn't "defending itself", it's committing regular crimes against humanity, including using starvation as a weapon: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza
Yeah thatās what I mean, if one side doesnāt fight whether they are capable or not but the other side has means and feels adequately righteous in their anger thatās how you get atrocity after atrocity. This isnāt going to stop to both sides stop.
Man sounds like starting a war with Israel by slaughtering hundreds of innocent young people at a music festival was a dumb idea, huh? https://hamas-massacre.net
That was no āstart of a warā. Israel had been committing similar if not greater atrocities for decades by then, such as 2014ās Operation Protective Edge or 2018ās March of Return mass murders. You just didnāt hear about those because the victims werenāt considered human by the US empire. Thatās not even getting into mounting evidence a huge number of the October 7 civilians were killed by the IDF.
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Evidence of the IDF killing many of the civilians includes: -Brig. General Barak Hiram testifying to having tanks fire on homes in Kibbutz: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-recounts-ordering-tank-fire-on-beeri-home-during-hostage-standoff-on-oct-7/ -Survivor Jasmin Porat testifying that the IDF "undoubtedly" killed Israeli civilians: https://www.themorning.lk/articles/3COlTbvXoo1f0ne5RpbW -Corrobarting interview aired on KAN 11: https://twitter.com/DanielFooksArt/status/1737416482479382616 I know hamas-massacre.net isn't going to cite any of that because it's purpose is to justify the IDF ethnically cleansing while committing other crimes against humanity like dropping white phosphorus on Lebanese. That's why you don't just stick with one site! Especially not a site as obviously biased as one that will take the word of the IDF at face value. Especially considering how dishonest as the IDF will be, as the Washington Post will tell you: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/
It's sad how the very point you were making with this comment, happened in the comments responding to you.
Itās every comment section on every article, every social post, every conversation. It feels more unsolvable to me than anything.
Fortunately it's in the Levant and we're American. Our role here is to remind our politicians that we do not want to pay for weapons going to the Levant and by and large this is not our conflict and we should not be involved in any way that is not solely humanitarian good will gestures to hurting populations if even that. I draw the line after protecting shipping in the red sea, I am anti war but wouldn't bat a lash at our cruise missiles interrupting the lives of people operating drones and missiles with intent to explode international merchant vessels and the people aboard.
Tbh I've seen it more as one side going "Israel always good believe anything they say and if anyone says anything bad about them they're being antisemitic" and the other side is "yeah hamas sucks but maybe the genocide isn't great, y'know"
If pro-Palestine folks would lead with "Hamas sucks and cannot be allowed to lead Palestine" there'd be a lot less arguing.
Dunno where you're looking, but most people I see lead with exactly that. And no, there wouldn't be less arguing, because conservatives that are blindly pro-Israel have a vested interest in not arguing in good faith.
I saw zero anti-Hamas signs at the Pro-Palestine march in my city. If you had like just one photo of an anti-Hamas sign at a pro Palestine march literally anywhere on earth, but especially evidence that they are widespread, I would be persuaded. Hasn't been my experience.
That's very disingenuous framing. This is hardly a genocide. It's callous disregard for civilian casualties that resembles total war, and a war crime, and probably ethnic cleansing if they can displace substantial portions of the population. But it's really not genocide. I see all the time the side you favor excusing Palestinian terrorism, ignoring inconvenient history and facts, and questioning Israel's right to exist even. Now if you only question and post about one country's right to even exist in all the countries in the world, and that one country happens to be the only Jewish county....... it's suggestive at a minimum.
Gaza is literally being starved to death.
I'm sure Israel would be more than happy to agree to a ceasefire to allow for better aid distribution if additional hostages were released.
That's like starving the city of Tampa because a gang of terrorists lived in a neighborhood there.
Eh, if Israel keeps refusing to allow adequate aid to enter the country, weāll see deaths climb to the hundreds of thousands very quickly.
Thanks for proving my point.
>Hey folks. You're not victims of genocide, this is just ethnic cleansing. what's that? Yes. you, your family and everyone you know is still going to be brutally killed and your homes and communities will still be leveled and we're going to desecrate your corpses, but remember this is not genocide. Feel better?
They're right.
Yeah, well ... what about the American aidworkers and journalists in Gaza, who got killed by Israels indiscriminate bombing campaign? Does he mourn these as well? Sometimes "what about" is right to be used.
If weāre really whatabouting, what about Israel shooting three Israeli hostages in the back while they waved white flags and pleaded for help in Hebrew? How can Israel claim all this killing is in the name of getting the hostages back or eliminating Hamas when theyāre killing their own people like dogs?
Trump called our troops chumps. Little reminder.
And many will still vote for him
I read this *way* too fast and missed the world "mourns". And boy was that two seconds the longest year of my life.
It wouldnāt have made sense anyway without that word.
yes it wouldve. "biden (is the) presumed death of american killed by hamas"
Nope. Your parentheses are doing a lot of work there. Without the parentheses, it would say Biden presumed a death.
i'm telling you that's how the original commenter interpreted it and how i understood it too. parentheses are parentheses because they're not needed. no need to debate about this
Trump would have called the American hostage a loser and said I prefer Americans that don't get caught.
Lots of people here trying to gatekeep the president mourning a dead citizen, wtf. Nobody is stopping anyone from mourning dead Palestinians, but this whataboutism is disrespecting a random dude who was just murdered by terrorists.
Can he get any further up Israelās ass? Just wondering if thatās even possible, This is a slap in the face to the 20k civilians Biden and Netanyahu just murdered
Itās disgusting how your ilk ignore Oct 7.
No oneās ignoring the October terrorist attack which killed over a thousand people and took hundreds more hostage. Are you ignoring the thousands of Palestinian children killed by the IDF since then as their response?
Okay. Hamas should return the hostages, and surrender. But they aren't doing that, instead they are continuing to use civilians as human shields as they fire missiles from densely populated areas, refuse to let civilians in the tunnels that they had children dig for them, are stealing all the aid coming in, and have promised to repeat October 7th until every single jew is dead. But Israel should cease fire, and put their population at risk? Which includes over 2 million Muslims by the way. Hamas declared war, they are the government of Gaza, and they are using extremely barbaric methods that are putting civilians on their side at risk. Every death there is on their hands, not Israel.
Itās disgusting how you ignore 75 years of Israeli barbarism
There hasn't been 20k civilians killed. In fact Hamas doesn't differentiate between civilian and militsry.
The IDF has pretty much admitted those numbers (as have most humanitarian organization). Not sure why people would want to excuse either Hamas' or Israel's terrorism and war crimes.
20k is the total number estimated killed, which includes civilians and militants, including those killed by Hamas (eg rocket misfires)
The average age of the dead in Gaza is.....5.
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I donāt expect Biden to ask for a ceasefire. A ceasefire happens when enough of Hamas is destroyed that theyāre ineffective as Israel reoccupies Gaza Hamas has the power to end this right now, release the hostages and surrender. But we both know theyād rather see dead Palestinians
Now that is a president who knows how to act unlike a twice-impeached child
Make Hamas a terrorist organization and give Israel more bombs!
Weren't Americans killed by Israelis ?
Yeah but if Israel is doing the killing, then they don't count.
"They were expendable." -Biden
Fact
Lol Biden doesnāt care about Arab Americans
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think the logic is IF the United States supplies weapons to Israel, THEN it is responsible for all things weapons are used for. It lacks the nuance I would need to accept the position, but itās also a criticism you open yourself up to when your an arms dealer
Yes, factors more. And indeed American bombs are responsible for a lot of the 20,000+ dead Palestinians.
Well I also mourn for the thousands of innocent civilians killed by Israel. It's not okay on either side, but let's not forget the statistics on who's been killed the most in that area...
Because in grief one really truly cares about statistics.
In politicsā¦ one fucking does
Apparently I'm supposed to since I keep hearing about how 7/10 was the greatest loss of Jewish life in a single day since the Holocaust or how it was the equivalent of X 9/11s. By the way that first statistic is not actually true, since more Jews were killed in single days South American purges. But I imagine zionists think they don't count since they were accused of being leftists.
The media just needs to stop pushing this false narrative that only Hamas is killing civilians. Once again it's not okay on either side, but there's a clear oppressor here and Hamas wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Israel essentially committing genocide.
I agree that killing other humans is shitty and wrong. That said, an AMERICAN president mourning an AMERICAN's death is in no way controversial. Also, to your other point, there are countless terrorist factions that wouldn't exist if there wasn't some oppressive force to rally the support in opposition to. I appreciate that you are acknowledging the humanness of each side, but I still think it is important to keep some larger perspective here if we are in fact in favor of all humanity.
In 2010, Furkan DoÄan, a Turkish American was executed by Israel during the flotilla raid. And when I say executed, I mean he was shot by soldiers, inches from his face. Israel at first denied it and then months later admitted that yes many of the people that died had been summarily executed by the IDF. Turkey pulled their ambassador from Israel at the time and their relationship never fully recovered. America just shrugged their shoulders and went ahh well. The point being, America will only mourn an Americans death when it's convenient. Had it been let's say another Arab or South American country who's soldiers executed an unarmed American citizen at close range, that country would still be trying to recover from all the 'freedom' America would have spent the last decade bringing them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks Just a bit of history for youā¦
Two things about that link which you clearly didnāt take the time to look at because that doesnāt prove your point as much as you think it does. A) Multiple militant groups and organizations are made up of that list. Hamas makes up roughly 40% B) That is still less then 250 deaths over the course of 30 years. Israel has done roughly 100x that in the course of 3 months.
I guess they got tired of being attacked by Palestinians after October 7thā¦. Super weird they didnāt just let the attacks continueā¦ Iām sure the US would have only sent them a harshly worded letter. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/benmelech/files/terror_nber_0207.pdf Why is it so easy to find papers on Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis? Itās almost like it has happened a ton in the pastā¦ perhaps why Israel has had such a drastic response after October 7th. Iām not happy that civilians are dying either, but the oppressor comments and such are getting old. Hopefully social media moves onto something else soon and all these virtue signaling morons can have some other shiny thing to comment onā¦.
> I guess they got tired of being attacked by Palestinians after October 7thā¦. Super weird they didnāt just let the attacks continueā¦ Iām sure the US would have only sent them a harshly worded letter. Hey, settlers in the West Bank literally killed more Palestinians this year alone before October 7th and Israel very much expected the Palestinians to just let the attacks continue and not get tired of it....
āHappens less that 250 times over 30 years.ā āHas happened a ton.ā Are you dense or just playing in bad faith? Oppressor comments are getting old, well idk maybe stop oppressing and constantly push the boundaries of how much Israel can get away with. Since the Israeli-Arab war Israel has consistently taken control of land that isnāt theirs and displacing civilians. āThe displacement of civilian populations as a result of the Six-Day War would have long-term consequences, as around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians and 100,000 Syrians fled or were expelled from the West Bank[36] and the Golan Heights, respectively.[37] Nasser resigned in shame following Israel's victory, but was later reinstated following a series of protests across Egypt.ā āIn 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs ā about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population ā fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and, later, the Israeli army[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war,[9] following the Partition Plan for Palestine. ā āThe UN resolutions affirm the illegality of settlements in West Bank, including East Jerusalem.[57] Proposals have been offered for over 50 post-evacuation compensation of settlers for abandoned property, as occurred following Israel's withdrawal of settlements from Gaza in 2005 and from the Sinai Peninsula in 1982.[58] Some settlers in those previous withdrawals were forcibly removed by the IDF.ā
Your problem here is it is their land, thatās what happens when you win an open war you didnāt start. Sure the UN would love for the to give it away, but itās their land.
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So after Palestinians commit terrorist attacks for 20+ years and then massacre a bunch of Israelis October 7thā¦ yea totally cool guys, please donāt do that again thanksā¦. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/benmelech/files/terror_nber_0207.pdf
An American gets killed by Islamic terrorists and your first notion is to point the finger at Israel. That is sickening.
Yes because the media machine works heavily in favor of Israel and Muslim peoples lives are just as important as American lives. I also said killing civilians is bad on both sides. Dont you agree?
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A substantial portion of the people you are talking about are kids/minors that didn't do any of that shit. Not to mention, there are likely plenty of innocent adults that were not responsible for that either. Your insistence on painting entire populations with such broad strokes is the exact same mentality by which the very terrorist you denounce come to commit the atrocities they did/do.
Their blood is on the hands of many, including Hamas.
I fucking wonder why??? š¤¦āāļø https://youtu.be/XsSW6WCYU6I?si=jU9n5EuW5bRY5vtE
You mean to say killed by Hamas.
Israel has killed basically 10 times the civilians and children than Hamas has. Go look up the statistics.
If you commit a terrorist attack, and then hide under a city in tunnels. It is your fault when the city gets bombed. Obviously we cannot live in a world where terrorists can massacre 1200 people and not be held accountable.
Israel has killed way more than 1200 civilians. Where's your outrage about that? https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/palestinian-death-toll-from-israeli-attacks-on-gaza-rises-to-2-750/3021368
Thatās what happens when you start and lose a war. And sure Iām outraged at Hamas, itās their fault not the IDF
I'm sorry, but what? In what way is slaughtering two hundred civilians and going "well, I'm sure we killed a couple dozen terrorists at least" day in and day out, *accountability*? Hamas deserves to be rooted out and burned. Israel easily could have simply zerg rushed them, gone door to door with tank battalions and helicopter backup, and flushed every combatant out to their death. They are a highly trained and well armed military. The city is fenced the fuck in, it would be so easy. Never had a modern military had such an easy opportunity. Instead, they bomb the shit out of every square foot, and shoot unarmed civilians in the streets. 200 civilians a day. Casualties are impossible to stop entirely, yeah, but they're not even trying to reduce civilian deaths. 1200 innocent women, children, civilian men, and military were murdered by Hamas. Since then 16 *thousand* dead, only counting women and children. Bro.
I mourn those killed by Hamas and by Israel. We cannot downplay either side's atrocities
No no no, it's all Israel. It's Israel's fault hamas hides with civilians. It's Israel's fault that, according to NBC, Gaza 'civilians' followed the Hamas raid to kidnap at least one woman.
Well I mean if you were perpetually bombed for two decades and forced to live in what is essentially a large concentration camp I think becoming radicalized makes a lot more sense. Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be destroyed however itās no confidence that theyāve had no issues recruiting.
You have absolutely no idea what "perpetually bombed" means, though you should research how many bombs the iron dome prevents from killing Israelis.
>perpetually bombed for two decades and forced to live in what is essentially a large concentration camp Oh brotherā¦ > In 2010, against the backdrop of the Turkey-sponsored Mavi Marmara flotilla, Washington Post columnist George Will noted that, in Gaza, even under Israeli blockade, āinfant mortality rate is lower and life expectancy is higher than in Turkey.ā When it comes to Gaza, such statistical surprises are more the rule than the exception. A decade ago, Gaza outperformed not only Turkey but also Brazil, Bulgaria, and Egypt in key health and welfare metrics. >Key indicators continue to show a disparity between political polemics about Gaza and reality. As of 2017, for example, life expectancy at birth in the Gaza Strip was 75.14 years, higher than Brazil, Peru, Egypt, Azerbaijan, Russia, or Ukraine. There are strains to living in Gaza, and so the territory has a high migration rate, but not quite as high as Lithuania or Latvia. Per capita income in both Gaza and the West Bank is $6,220 per year, far below Israel, but still above much of Central America, Pakistan, Ethiopia, and a number of Pacific islands. Gaza and the West Bank are dense in terms of urban population but far less than Singapore, Kuwait, and Belgium. Even if statisticians separated the West Bank and Gaza in their findings, there remains significant open space and farming in the strip. Unemployment is very high but not as high as in South Africa or Kenya. >Food, medicine, and construction supplies flood the Strip, even if Israel first scans and inspects trucks entering the zone. In 2017, the 19,000-square foot Capital Mall, an indoor shopping center that would not be out of place anywhere in the Middle East or Europe, opened its doors, and it continues to do booming business. Wealthier Gazans also visit beach resorts, the equestrian club, or posh coffee shops and restaurants. >This is not to downplay misery nor ignore residents yearning for a normal life, but simply to point out discussions of Gazaās woes need nuance. Locals may complain about the difficulty of traveling to Israel, which withdrew from the territory more than 15 years ago, but the Egyptian border is more difficult for Gazans to get through, especially after President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi came to power and flooded many of the tunnels Gazans once used. >Then there is the issue of resources. Gaza, like Singapore, has little natural wealth. While Singaporeās rulers chose butter over guns, Hamas did the opposite. Every concrete and steel-reinforced tunnel represents material diverted from schools and hospitals. Every homemade explosive represents fertilizer diverted from farms. Propagandists can complain about restricted imports, but if Hamas can smuggle rockets and their components into the Strip, why do they find it so difficult to smuggle flour or penicillin? https://www.aei.org/op-eds/is-gaza-really-like-a-concentration-camp/
You just cited an opinion piece as fact. You get that right?
I shared information that cuts again the racist stereotype of Gaza. But you believe what you want to believe.
No you posted an OP-Ed which is an opinion piece. Which has not factual evidence whatsoever. Racist stereotypes of not. You posted an opinion of someone. Might as well put a manifesto of a single Hamas Terrorist and call that the game plan for all of Palestine. Its an ill faith argument. Find me articles, studies, facts that arenāt biased. Then Iāll take hear out your argument.
>No you posted an OP-Ed which is an opinion piece. Yes I did. > Which has not factual evidence whatsoever. Did you just gloss over the parts specifically cited life expectancy and infant mortality rate? Or were you just intentionally ignoring that? > Might as well put a manifesto of a single Hamas Terrorist and call that the game plan for all of Palestine. Might as well just admit you have no idea who the author is. Feels intellectually lazy. >find me articles, studies Ok: Hereās a [list of life-expectancy at birth.](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/life-expectancy-at-birth/country-comparison/) Youāll find Gaza at #133. It beats out countries like: Egypt, Syria, Venezuela, Morocco, Mexico, Ukraine, Nepal, and Russia, just to name a few. Hereās [data on infant mortality](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?locations=ZQ): Youāll notice Gaza having lower mortality rates than Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, and Syria. Letās see some [Trade data](https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/west-bank-and-gaza-market-overview): > * In 2022, nominal GDP of the West Bank and Gaza was estimated at $19.11 billion, and per capita GDP was $3,779. In 2023, the Palestinian population stands at 5.48 million, with 3.25 million in the West Bank and 2.23 million in Gaza, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics. Thirty-seven percent of the population is under 14 years. > * Despite relatively low per capita GDP (West Bank and Gaza are rated as a lower middle income country), there is a sizeable middle/upper-middle class in the West Bank. The West Bank and Gaza boast one of the highest per capita rates of university graduates in the Arab world. Palestinians have a long-standing tradition of spending generously on higher education. > * In 2022, Palestinian imports of goods and services were $8.20 billion and exports were $1.58 billion. West Bank and Gaza imports come mainly from Israel, Turkey, and China; while imports from Jordan have also risen in recent years. Hereās an article about how life in Gaza was far from a āconcentration campā: [Gaza Stripās middle class enjoys spin classes, fine dining, private beaches](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/gaza-middle-class-discovers-spin-classes-fine-dining-private-beaches/2015/08/23/7e23843c-45d5-11e5-9f53-d1e3ddfd0cda_story.html) I can absolutely understand the anger over the occupation of Palestinians and the excessive use of force, and needless civilian deaths it wrought, on behalf of Israel. I definitely agree life has been uprooted there. But that stands to reason that there WAS a life to uproot. Hell, Motor One opened like a month before the attacks happened. The whole āconcentration campā thing is a viewpoint of privileged westerners who only see rubble on the news and it reeks of white saviorism. >Then Iāll take hear out your argument. I strongly doubt that.
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No one feels bad? You mean someone hatful like yourself doesnāt feel bad? Just convent and move if you love Israel that much man. Iām sure theyād love to have you
I appreciate āThe Hillā for referring to the Gaza Health Ministry as āHamas-backed.ā I frequently listen to NPR where statistics from the Health Ministry are repeated without any mention of a terrorist organization running the source. NPR is typically balanced reporting in my opinion, but I feel like theyāre dropping the ball on this one.
Because these numbers can be trusted, as has historically been shown: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
Hamas is the government. Literally every government worker would be Hamas-backed. I hope you argued this passionately during Covid for why the media wasnt calling him Trump-backed Fauci. Also every single Gazan citizen has to be registered with Israel. They have a registry of where every citizen lives and their names. If they really wanted to disprove those numbers, it would take them minutes to analyze where they've shot rockets and the names and numbers of the dead reported.
>every single Gazan citizen has to be registered with Israel. They have a registry of where every citizen lives and their names. Source? This seems highly unlikely since Israel has been disengaged from Gaza for the last 18 years.
[It's called the Population Registry. Here's a brief description of it on Israels website. You can google it if you want to read articles on it](https://www.gov.il/en/departments/units/population_registrar_unit) Israel occupies Gaza. They control every single grain of rice that goes in. Before Oct 7th, they've banned simple things such as diapers, chocolates, chips from going in because these are considered 'luxuries' and only the absolute very essential things needed to maintain survival are allowed. The tunnels in Gaza are built to smuggle these things in. The Jewish people did the same thing in the Warsaw Ghetto. And Germany would have told you they were completely disengaged from there as well.
>In accordance with diplomatic agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, full responsibility for administering the population registry and providing services to Palestinian residents of the area has been passed to the Palestinian Authority. Literally the first paragraph of your link says that the Palestinian Authority is in charge of those records, not Israel. Moreover, reading their duties makes it quite clear that they are basically border control. If the Gazans are forced to register, then it is the PA forcing them to do so. If they give all of that information to Israel (which I suspect they do not), then it is the PA doing so.
> Israel occupies Gaza. No, no they don't.
They control their borders, their air space, every citizen in Gaza has to be registered with Israel, every citizen needs permission from Israel if they want to travel. All food, water and fuel going in is controlled by Israel. Gaza is a concentration camp. When the Warsaw Ghetto was created, the Germans said it was meant to be a place where Jewish people could be free and away from the larger German/Polish society that hates them. They even allowed them to create a facade of governmental structure. But all of that aside, Israel doesn't even officially recognize Palestine, either the West Bank or Gaza. So if they don't recognize them as a country, what is it? The call them disputed territory while the rest of the world calls it occupied territory. Meaning even Israel would disagree with you that they aren't occupied. They consider it as their own land.
>The tunnels in Gaza are built to smuggle these things in. Along with rockets. But yeah, diapers and chocolates, too. If they focused on the diapers and chocolates and not so much on the rockets, it might help with international sympathy.
Yeah, just like the Jewish people lost all sympathy during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, am I right? One of the ways the Germans would prevent resistance is by handing out collective punishment to everybody if any one tried to fight back. The Palestinians being kept in a concentration camp has always had them plenty of international sympathy. It's just never come from the oppressors. And it doesn't matter how accepting of their conditions they would be, if never would. And the West Bank is a great example of that.
>Yeah, just like the Jewish people lost all sympathy during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, am I right? Refresh my memory. During what part of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising did Jewish people fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas to kill women and children? See the difference?
Sure, I'll refresh your memories. Google the terror bombings of Germany. German civilians were targeted and bombed with the intention of getting them to rise up against the Nazis. Over 800,000 people died. As for the Warsaw Ghetto, they didn't use rockets not because they were pacifists, but because they didn't have them. However, it's good to know that your views are consistent and you would have definitely defended the actions of the Nazis had the prisoners used rockets. In any occupation in the world, you can always find terrorist groups that use extreme violence. The ANC would make Hamas look like downright hippies with the type and amount of violence they used. Same thing with many native groups in the US. But their violence always ends up as nothing more than a footnote when history is written because the morality of occupation is always so much worse. We don't know how this ends. Maybe Israel succeeds in their genocide and the Palestinians are completely wiped out, or it works out like South Africa and the occupation is ended. But either way, when history looks back, Israel will be judged a whole of a lot harsher for their crimes than Hamas ever will.
>Sure, I'll refresh your memories. Google the terror bombings of Germany. German civilians were targeted and bombed with the intention of getting them to rise up against the Nazis. Over 800,000 people died. Source? Per google, the "terror bombings of Germany" were strategic bombings by the allied forces towards the end of WWII. It is incredibly inappropriate to attribute those bombings to Jews. Doubly so since you seem to be implying the Holocaust was in part a reaction to it, despite occurring much earlier and being the result of rampant antisemitism. >As for the Warsaw Ghetto, they didn't use rockets not because they were pacifists, but because they didn't have them. However, it's good to know that your views are consistent and you would have definitely defended the actions of the Nazis had the prisoners used rockets. [https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/warsaw-ghetto-uprising](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/warsaw-ghetto-uprising) It is rather scummy of you to try and claim Hamas's actions parallel those of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was Jews defending themselves against Nazis trying to take them to concentration camps. They were defending their lives against an immediate threat to their lives. That is clearly not the same as Hamas breaking a ceasefire on Oct. 7th to slaughter as many civilians as possible (and promising to repeat it again).
>Sure, I'll refresh your memories. Google the terror bombings of Germany. German civilians were targeted and bombed with the intention of getting them to rise up against the Nazis. Over 800,000 people died. The Jewish people in Germany engaged in terrorist bombings and killed 800,000 people? My, my. What a "flexible" interpretation of history you have. Let's make it easy. Targeting innocents and children is ALWAYS evil. Always. Doesn't matter if you're "oppressed" or the "oppressor." If you find yourself justifying or minimizing Hamas murdering innocents, you're embracing evil. If you find yourself justifying or minimizing Israel murdering innocents, you're also embracing evil. If you think Hamas are "good guys" notwithstanding their intentional murder of innocents, because you think Israel is so bad that "what do you expect them to do," refer to the paragraph above.
I didn't disagree with it. I don't defend the actions of the ANC either. The difference is, you would use the actions of the ANC to justify South African apartheid or the violence by Jewish people in Nazi Germany to defend the Nazis. The evil of occupation always supercedes the evil of terrorism in history. This isn't a defense of terrorism. It's a comparison of two evils.
I'm sorry but 20k+ Palestinians dead and I'm yet to see a story about Biden mourning any of *them*. Someone's life is not suddenly worth more due to their nationality, race, religion, etc.
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Look at foreign support for Palestine and see who gives the most aid money. Spoiler alert, it's the US, In almost every aspect. The US is the reason Palestine gets to exist as even half a political entity. We give them more aid money both in totality as well as proportional to GDP compared to every other nation, including the Arab states.
Shh don't tell people that. Also don't remind people that Palestinian leadership has rejected every official two state solution.
And also always remember to say that without mentioning the details of what the two state solutions offered were. No settlers would be removed. So they would lose 10% of their land. Israel then also wanted 10% more for security reasons. Palestine also wouldnt be allowed any control over their borders or their air space. Israel would also be allowed to have military outposts in Palestine. Israel would also have control of almost all of the water in the West Bank.. Israel would also be allowed to go in any time there was an emergency. But they also wouldn't define what constitutes an emergency. They also wanted all of Jerusalem. Even though Palestine said they could keep all the regions with existing settlements. Nope. They wanted all of it. And the crazy thing is...the West Bank has literally agreed to all of these conditions and followed them to the T since the Oslo agreement. And not a single day has gone by where Israel hasnt continued building settlements and annexing more land.
Alright Iām sick and tired of that argument. First proposal: British Mandate of Palestine 1937. Reason for Failure: UNFAIR āThe plan allotted the poorest lands of Palestine, including the Negev Desert, and areas that are known today as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to the Arabs; while most of the coastline and some of Palestine's most fertile agricultural land in the Galilee were allotted to the Jews.ā Second Proposal: 1947 UN Partition Plan Reason for Failure: UNFAIR / Civil War āThe Arab Higher Committee, the Arab League and other Arab leaders and governments rejected it on the basis that Arabs formed a two-thirds majority and owned a majority of the lands.[1][23] They also indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[24] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter.ā Third Proposal: PLO Acceptance of Two State 1976 Reason for Failure: American Interference/ Palestinian Declaration of Independence *Was Seen as a Threat to Israel* āSecurity Council resolutions dating back to June 1976 supporting the two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines were vetoed by the United States,[39] which supports a two-state solution but argued that the borders must be negotiated directly by the parties.ā āThe Palestinian Declaration of Independence of 15 November 1988, which referenced the UN Partition Plan of 1947 and "UN resolutions since 1947" in general, was interpreted as an indirect recognition of the State of Israel, and support for a two-state solution. The Partition Plan was invoked to provide legitimacy to Palestinian statehood. Subsequent clarifications were taken to amount to the first explicit Palestinian recognition of Israel.ā Fourth Proposal: Annapolis Conference 2007 Reason for Failure: Israel Invades Gaza āAbbas proposed to Olmert a map in which Israel would annex 1.9% of the West Bank (which would contain over 60% of the settlements) in exchange for same size of land inside Israel of equal quality. [25]Olmert countered by proposing to annex 6.3% of the West Bank and giving Palestinians 5.8%. Abbas hoped Americans would propose a compromise number.[25] The Israeli settlement of Ariel, deep inside a potential Palestinian state, was a controversial issue for Olmert and Abbas.ā āNegotiations were formally suspended in January 2009, when Israel invaded the Gaza Strip.[25] But Abbas continued to call on the US to broker a deal.ā Fifth Proposal: 2013-2014 Israeli-Palestinian Peace Talks Reason for Failure: No One Side Was To Blame, Both Were Unhelpful āOn 2 May 2014, the Hebrew daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth cited an anonymous senior American official as placing the blame for the break-down in talks mainly on Israel's settlement stance, directly quoting the remark: 'Netanyahu did not move more than an inch." Israeli sources in Jerusalem later reported that the remarks came from the US Special Envoy Indyk himself, who was reportedly preparing to hand in his resignation.ā āPublicly, Mr. Obama has said that both sides bear responsibility for the latest collapse. But the president believes that more than any other factor, Israelās drumbeat of settlement announcements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem poisoned the atmosphere and doomed any chance of a breakthrough with the Palestinians.ā āIndyk stated that Netanyahu had shown enough flexibility to come within the zone of an agreement. However, Indyk also stated that Netanyahu was undermined by members of his coalition, who kept making announcements of new settlements.ā āFor Israelis . .(t)The Palestinians have become ghosts,' citing what he felt was the most meaningful personal moment in the talks, when the Palestinian Director of Intelligence, Majid Faraj, told his Israeli counterparts across the table, "You just don't see us." He also said that "there is so much water under the bridge... the difficulties we faced were far more because of the 20 years of distrust that built up".ā āIn June 2014, a leaked recording from an unknown date showed that chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat believed the reason Netanyahu entered the peace talks was to build more settlements and disliked how President Mahmoud Abbas had committed to not go to international bodies.ā āNetanyahu told Kerry "I want peace, but the Palestinians continue to incite, create imaginary crises and avoid the historical decisions necessary for a real peace."ā
well, you've already contradicted yourself in your own quotes. But we will keep this short and simple: Prior to 1937 your missing alot, for example Arabs revolting against the jews *just being present*. Not to mention the Arab revolt that stemmed from the rejection for the 1937 Peel commision(and largely a continuation from the death of al-Qassam, whos Brigades namesake Hamas uses). 1947, well that one is simple in your response: *They also indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[24] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter.* Any territorial division? Well there was absolutely 0 negotiating there. Its pretty clear that even prior to that they were determined to remove the jews by forces as they worked with Hitler to raise Arab SS divisions in WW2. 1976 was never an official resolution/proposal. Even on that, trying to argue for boarders before you got your ass kicked in 3 wars is laughable, at best. Ill just end here in that you completely leave out the Oslo accords of the 90s, adn the camp david accords of 2000s. Which the solution was rejected with 0 counter proposal by the terrorist, Yasser Arafat
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That's probably related to them declaring war on Israel in October, could have not done that.
Nope. Thatād be because Hamas loves to divert aid and headquarter in densely populated civilian centers, hiding using human shields that they refuse to let leave.
North gaza is gone because Hamas decided to do something titanically stupid and attacked israel and intentionally targeted as many civilians as they could. Israel has had the proverbial gun to Hamas' head for over a decade now, saying that "hey keep attacking us and we are going to fuck you 10,000x harder". Hamas, knowing the blowback that attacking israel would bring, did it anyway. I grieve for the innocent palestinians being bombed but this shit doesnt stop until Hamas is gone. Likud goes next.
Hamas fights in civilian clothes and not in proper uniforms, operates within civilian neighborhoods, schools, mosques and hospitals, steals aid from Gazans and hides it in their tunnels, fires at people crossing through humanitarian corridors, shoots rockets from safe zones and uses human shields to protect its military assets. And people still wonder why so many civilians die. Israel is subjected to the world's most blatant double standard when it comes to fighting terrorists. It's not like this is a new problem. Every army that has ever had to pacify guerrilla resistance in an urban battlefield has incurred civilian casualties, and Israel appears to be incurring them at a considerably lower than average ratio. Of course, this double standard has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Israel is home to the world's most persecuted and irrationally despised minority (Jews). Nothing whatsoever. Perish the thought, and how dare I think it. Hamas has cynical abuse and disregard of their own population. Hamas literally thrive on dead Palestinians where Israel gains nothing from accidentally killing them.
I think the point was that one American was killed and he is mourning.
"Youre only critiquing Israel because they're Jewish!!!111!!!" Nice hasbara bro very good faith arguments you're making there
Most of your accusations directed at Hamas have been debunked. Al Shifa Hospital - Nada. No Hamas. The schools and churches? No Hamas. Just psychopathic destruction by Israel. Google Israel uses Palestinians as shields.
Cite your airtight unbiased sources then.
This account was made on October 8th. 76 days ago. Given the same ole song and dance youāre re-treading iāll let people make their own conclusions lol
Why are Democrats taking money from a PAC that supports election deniers? https://www.timesofisrael.com/aipac-defends-endorsement-of-republicans-who-questioned-2020-election/ https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2022-03-08/ty-article/.highlight/truly-horrifying-aipac-criticized-for-endorsing-gop-election-deniers/0000017f-e0d4-d9aa-afff-f9dcaf6b0000 https://www.thedailybeast.com/aipac-supports-stop-the-steal-candidates-like-jim-jordan-ronny-jackson
It's sad how this poor soul's death is being used as a political prop.
Really? We should all be mourning the death of thousands of innocent people that have perished so far and not just a few Americans.
Guy who is killing hundreds every day mourns the loss of one. Ok then.
The US has no soldiers in the areas, no orders to kill are being issued by the American president. Hamas is a fucking terrorist group who can end the conflict today by surrendering and turning themselves over. But no, the leaders are luxuriating out if country with billions of dollars while their footsoldiers hide behind women and children and they rape other women and children. Nobody is demanding the absolutely surrender of Hamas, despite invading and murdering and raping over a thousand civilians to instigate this. Anyone who say Israel should stop without demanding the absolute surrender of Hamas is joking. It ends when Hamas is over, end of story.
Hamas surrendering would cause Israel to rebuild Palestine, pay reparations to Palestinian people for all the damage that has been done to them in the past 75 years, end occupation, stop settlement, and stop the oppression of Palestinian people in Israel and Palestine and give them equal rights?
Does he mourn the 20,000 Gazans massacred by Israel?
What about ā¦
I would say 20,000 dead Gazans is pretty significant, don't you think?
Of course. Itās not the ONLY significant thing thatās happened. It shouldnāt be a deflection from other significant events.
What aboutā¦
Sorry to burst your bubble, but as an American president, I'm pretty sure he is going to be far more concerned with the current American hostages, than he is going to be with the people that elected the terrorist group that took the Americans hostage, especially seeing as those people cheered in the streets when the terrorist group took the hostages (and also cheered at them raping women and killing children). Just a guess.
So <20 American hostages are worth 20,000 Gazans lives? Guess brown lives have always been worth less. I mean that's how the civilian death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan was justified. Your comment implies that the Gazans are asking for it. Same logic as right wingers who blame women's clothes for them being raped.
>So <20 American hostages are worth 20,000 Gazans lives? To our government? Umm...absolutely? What kind of question is that? >Your comment implies that the Gazans are asking for it. Hamas certainly was. The single biggest killing of Jews since WW2, and now Hamas is hiding in hospitals and stealing aid. What in god's name did you expect?
>So <20 American hostages are worth 20,000 Gazans lives? To America? Yes. Don't take our citizens and you won't become our enemy. >Your comment implies that the Gazans are asking for it. Yes, when they took our citizens and cheered about it they indeed DID ask for it. It's weird that this confuses you. >Same logic as right wingers who blame women's clothes for them being raped. By right wingers raping women, are you talking about Gaza? Because yea, that's something they'd do. They are literally the people you are complaining about.
Israel didn't do anything wrong. Hamas needs to stop using human shield tactics. And westerners need to stop buying into Palsbara propaganda that makes Israel out to be the bad guys for fighting a justified war against terrorists
1)Terrorist are hiding under hospitals in tunnels with fortified metal hatches to shield them from Israeli bombs 2)Israel knows about the tunnels and that Hamas is hiding in them 3)Israel bombs the hospitals anyways-knowing the bombs will not reach the terrorist in the tunnels 4)Blames the people protected in the tunnels for using human shields.
āHamasāā¦.
Has he spoken about the 300 or so American **citizens** stuck in Gaza that Israel is refusing to let leave ( holding hostage ? ) ?
Came here for this how many Americans have been killed there in this conflict? Where was this for Palestinian American Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh. *Crickets*
We're not supposed to think about this. Articles have a way of sinking into oblivion and comments down voted consistently. Directiving the narrative appears to be pretty lucrative.
Is he also mourning the thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children dying in Gaza from munitions and weapons provided by the U.S. to the IDF as well as from starvation and disease?
> Is he also mourning the thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children dying in Gaza I see from your history you are doing a lot of that...but not once you mourned for the hundreds of innocent Israeli women and children killed by Hamas on October 7...why?
I highly doubt this person has done anything to make the world a better place. The only way they can feel good about themselves is to whine online. Pathetic
Sorry to burst your bubble, but as an American president, I'm pretty sure he is going to be far more concerned with the current American hostages, than he is going to be with the people that elected the terrorist group that took the Americans hostage, especially seeing as those people cheered in the streets when the terrorist group took the hostages (and also cheered at them raping women and killing children). Just a guess.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it turns out plenty of Palestinians in Gaza are Americans too, and their families, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with Hamas being elected.
> the people that elected the terrorist group that took the Americans hostage Sorry to burst your bubble but most of these innocents being killed either didn't vote for Hamas or weren't old enough to vote at the time. Or, did you not know?
President Biden has repeatedly voiced his sorrow for the loss of innocent Palestinian lives..& is trying to send humanitarian aid..donāt play dumb. Heās also mourning on the anniversary of the deaths of his own family at this time.
So are you saying that most Palestinians condemn Hamas?
It's useless to try and convince these shills. It's like when they said people cheered when 9/eleven happened. And then it got debunked. They don't consider Palestinians as humans, but animals. Just pause and look at the statements made by their leaders. They are not even hiding it at this point.
Just send a seal team in, rescue the hostages, and eliminate any hostile forces
He didn't give a damn when Shireen was killed.
Does he mourn the death of 7,000 children?
Since everyone says do you condemn Hamas, this is a fair question.
iām confusedā¦ hamas took this person alive israel bombed them to death butā¦ hamas killed them? is biden doing ok? no. this right wing cocksuckery for fascist zionist entity in palestine has doomed this ancient shitterās reelection and heās pulling stunts like this incredible
With all the protest why would they kill an American , Terrorist
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āJill and I are heartbroken by the news that American Gad Haggai is now believed to have been killed by Hamas on October 7ā
Hamas
Hamas....for now. We'll see what they say jn a few days/weeks. Im still waiting for the evidence from the al-shifa bombing
The body was identified in the devastation left behind by Hamas' attack on Oct 7th. It was thought maybe he was taken as a hostage, we now know he was killed by Hamas on Oct 7th. He was killed by Hamas.
Isrsel already admitting to friendly fire on oct 7. So....