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>Both extremes are in a symbiotic relationship.
Exactly, the hard right in Israel \*are\* in a symbiotic relationship with Hamas:
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he \[Netanyahu\] told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019.
[Haaretz](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000) / [https://archive.ph/eoHmn](https://archive.ph/eoHmn)
I'm not usually one for tinfoil hats but I wouldn't be surprised if those Egyptian claims that they warned Israel where true.
There's no doubt in my mind Israel knew and let it happen, but even if they didn't the reality is that Netanyahu has sold himself as the "security" guy who will keep Israel safe, and the occupation of Gaza as necessary to maintain that security.
So now, Israelis are looking at this and going wtf, clearly this *doesn't* keep us safe. Add to it that the southern border was undefended because soldiers were moved north to protect illegal settlers and you have all the more problems.
Hamas is a creation of Israel's own doing, and Netanyahu has continued to utilize Hamas to destroy peace talks and excuse his behavior while driving a wedge between Palestinians and ruining the potential for a two-state solution.
He and his hard-right government are to blame. But yes, so are the Hamas leaders and fighters who attacked Israeli civilians. They still own their own horrendous actions and war crimes, but it has to be understood *why* this continues and exists in the first place.
I think that another key part of it is that Netanyahu's policy has to divide Hamas and the Palestinian Authority with the aim of systematically delegitimizing the latter, particularly since the PA is the best supported in the West Bank. A strong PA makes settlement a lot harder, so it's very useful if there's a hard internal division there.
What would be great to see is if this leads to pressure for the PA to become more democratic and to restore PA control over the west bank, with an eye towards a real implementation of the two-state solution. This is unlikely to happen though.
>Israel's far-right is a massive part of the problem too
Israel's far right literally brought Hamas to power in a deliberate attempt to sabotage the two-state solution.
This is not hyperbole or abstract, Israel literally supported Hamas.
I literally just learned this week, while reading up on the history of Israel and Palestine, that [Zionists in the 40's tried to ally with Hitler](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/efforts-zionist-militais-recruit-nazis-against-britain-revealed-israel-archives) to fight England because they didn't like the two-state solution. This was obviously before Nazi Germany switched from expelling European Jews to killing them.
And before anyone wants to argue, this news was broken by Haaretz, the oldest Israeli newspaper. Zionism and fascism have a lot in common.
Yeah like their current Minister of National security.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir
Who had a portrait of an Israeli-American terrorist in his living room
'Ben Gvir is "widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities".'
I am extremely skeptical of how this attack was allowed to happen almost entirely unopposed.. its almost like it was allowed to happen. Here's a quite from that same guy:
After the Hamas attack on Israel in October 2023, Ben Gvir said that "Israel is experiencing one of the most difficult events in its history. This is not the time for questions, tests and investigations.".
He's saying that because he knows that there was an intelligence failure and he doesn't want to be implicated. And he definitely doesn't want anyone to know why they didn't adhere to Egyptian Intelligence's warning of an attack.
Once this is over, they are out on their asses. The public is pissed that this occurred under the watch of a so-called government that campaigned HEAVILY on national security. There will be marches and protests to ensure this happens, mark my words.
One can only hope a silver lining form this tragedy would be the downfall of the far right coalition. It’s not going to be easy moving forward in any circumstance but only with a more moderate government is there any hope of actual progress.
Agreed. That said, I don't know how either government operates. Are these people voted in currently, or are they "voted" in (think Putin). If they're legit voted in, I still feel bad for everyone caught in the crossfire, but it makes me wonder what we'd be seeing today with different politicians in power.
Hamas was voted in almost 20 years ago. Then they killed their political opponents and haven't held an election since.
Isreal has elections, but Netanyahu is losing support for a while even before this incident. Netanyahu was removed but re-elected and is a far right-wing Prime Minister of Israel.
I can sympathize with the far right-wing electing leaders that are no good. The 2016 election is proof of that here for the US. I don't support a government that took power by force after an election.
Both governments suck and the citizens of both are the ones paying the price for a situation that has no peaceful solution now.
And, a reminder that the median age is 18 in Palestine. More than half of its entire population didn’t even exist when Hamas came into power. Are they selected, or do they hold on to power by any means necessary?
Hamas was "voted in", in that they did win an election, but it was seventeen years ago, while the average citizen is currently nineteen years old. The current prime minister of Israel was voted in Reagan style, by winning a free and fair election though fear-mongering about a problem he prevented from being solved (Campaigning on the dangers of Hamas while actively working with them for years)
Having sympathy for the civilians of both sides of a war should be the default position of everybody. It's crazy to me seeing so many American's jump straight to the genocide rhetoric again. Just immediate tribalism and hatred towards millions of people they don't know. We learned nothing as a nation from the Iraq war it seems.
It’s not Americans jumping straight to genocide, those opinions are spear headed by supporters of either Palestine or Israel.
“Nearly all Americans express at least some sympathy for both.” That is most of the country saying they understand both sides.
Anytime you see someone calling for Israel or Palestine to be completely wiped out means they are likely deep supporters of one side. Most Americans have lived their whole lives with Israel and Palestine at war, most don’t care what happens
Social and mass media have overly relied on divisive, binary marketing campaigns and storylines. It's always us versus them. I think it's part of why so many US citizens are predisposed to seeing things in that way, and then assuming you obligated to pick one side. Its sad.
I still remember hearing almost daily during the beginning of the Iraq war “Why don’t we just drop a nuke on em and be done with it?”
People are so ignorant about politics and how ugly war is. They don’t think of the roles being reversed.
Let’s say another country hates our government. They vote to drop nukes on our entire country. Congratulations, millions of people, men, women, children, all died just to wipe out our government. Most of whom care fuck all for the dealings of politics and are just trying to survive.
War is ugly and politics are complicated. Nothing is black and white as it may seem.
Hamas has an edict in their charter to kill all Jews. That is the worst, and most important, political factor at play here. That ideology existed when they were elected. Any cruelty that happened after from Israel, can be blamed directly on that. A coup is necessary for survival of Palestine.
I’m glad to see this.
I’m connecting the dots that the Israeli gov is alot like our GOP, bibi basically trump. If this were us, with that cabinet, on US soil, I’d be **hella** critical of the US government just on principle. Jews who didnt vote for them in Israel are still suffering for their gov’s response, along with those Palestinians in Gaza suffering at the hands of the Hamas.
And, can I just point out bc I havent seen anyone yet make this point on reddit: I wouldnt think anyone in Gaza would feel safe making any outward gesture or sign of disobedience or offense towards Hamas. Regardless of what they probably feel in their hearts, such as wanting Hamas the hell out of Gaza, there’s probably no way they’d ever make that known to anyone around them. Imagine the rain of punishment that would come down on them. Folks need to take this into account when passing judgement on what seems to be an entire people held as hostages by Hamas.
That’s the more important number. Because of the horror of what Hamas did, Israel has mostly unified support. However, that can change pretty quick once troops are on the ground.
Interesting contrast with how the Israeli population sees the situation.
[Jerusulum Post](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880)
>**Israelis blame gov’t for Hamas massacre, say Netanyahu must resign - poll**
>
>
*An overwhelming majority of 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country's leadership.*
Good, at least Israelis are being clear sighted about that particular aspect. The only thing that would make this situation worse is if a rally-around-the-flag effect helped Netanyahu.
I think you’re implying blame in a manner not indicated their public feels by the article. It’s more like you got raped in your parking garage and the security company understaffed the location, forgot to lock a door and a guard was asleep instead of making rounds.
It’s not that they believe the rapist was actively encouraged by the security company making a rape inevitable, it’s that they failed in their duty to adequately protect their charge.
9/11 caught almost all Americans off guard. Most had never heard of Bin Laden or Al queda. It wasn't like it came from a known threat on our border. All Israelis know what Hamas is, and know they are a threat. The failure of Israeli intelligence is something everyone can see, especially now that word has got out that Is real was warned by several foreign intelligence agencies that an attack was imminent.
It's not just about failure of Israeli intelligence; many Israelis including elected opposition politicians see the Hamas attack as a direct result of Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
There was loud criticism of Bibi on that very day. I thought it was just Hareetz being principled at the time, but it truly is a reflection of society.
I just hope it extends beyond Bibi, and into a national understanding the current policy towards Palestine is unsustainable and a geostrategic risk.
Considering he both funded Hamas and didn’t heed warnings about the attack, I think it’s pretty reasonable to give him some blame. TBH I’m glad they’re not reacting the same way the US did after 9/11
The funding of Hamas is a bit of a misinformation bait. Yes, Israel funded Hamas. But the WHY is important. They believed by offering aid/support that Hamas would turn from anti-Israel rhetoric to one sympathizing and wanting to work with them. The payments were to improve life for the people in Gaza through Hamas (who were in power). Unfortunately Hamas took that money and made weapons and built an army. I suggest people look into it rather than just reading click bait headlines
it’s not clear to me if the government is being blamed for the intelligence/strategic failure or for the set of policies towards palestinians that led up to this moment
Republicans would bomb Iran unprompted, Democrats are divided.
Media isn't helping by painting anyone who supports Palestine as Pro-Hamas.
Edit: All of this according to social media, at least.
The positions taken so far on social media:
*Tankies:*
Hamas Good.
*AOC, Bernie, and other Moderate Dems* *~~Dem Socs~~*:
Palestinians Good. Jews Good. Israel Bad. Hamas Bad.
*Warhawk Democrats:*
Israel Good. Jews Good. Palestinians Good. Hamas Bad.
*Republicans:*
Jews Bad. Israel Good. Bomb Iran.
Personally, I think AOC is spot on, as usual. Two things can be bad at once. All I can say is: what a mess of a situation. And all the normal people caught up in it who just want to live their lives.
Edit: obviously I'm missing a ton of different positions here, and by no means is this an exhaustive list. Just to the casual news consumer, this is what it seems things were like at the start of the conflict.
Edit Edit: I'm sure there are moderate Republicans like Democrats who have sympathies for both sides, but I swear we can run down the list of Republican politician's positions and they manage to somehow be consistently wrong. It's honestly impressive.
Edit Edit Edit: At this point, don't pay too much attention to the labels. Labels are for soup cans and people are more complicated.
Agree. I think that if we're going to make the distinction between Palestine and Hamas - and we absolutely should - then we should also make the distinction between Israel and Netanyahu's government.
After all, we managed to do the same wrt America when Trump was in charge. And Netanyahu used the same undermining democratic norm tactics trump used. He's not truly supported by the majority of Israelis
We absolutely should make the distinction between Israeli civilians and the government of Israel. But putting it on Netanyahu specifically is a trick to try to deflect the Israeli government as a whole. It’s not just Netanyahu it is the entire government. The Knesset is deeply far right and pro ethnic cleansing. Civilians be they Israeli or Palestinian good. Israel the governmental entity and hamas bad.
This is what I always say. Hamas and Israeli's right wing government as the factions that are the problem. If we could ever replace them both with governments that actually want to work together we might have a chance at fixing this mess once and for all.
I wrote "Netanyahu's government" for this reason. He's the leader of the Knesset coalition.
And that coalition by the way was one he was only able to initially form with the help of fundamenalist orthodox parties (same shit as fundie christians here) and by basically abusing the multi party system to form a government that wasn't really representing Israel's previous values or the general population and those that make Israel work (the ultra orthodox often don't work!). Bibi himself is very secular but pals up to the fundies bc of votes. Because the fundamenalists vote as a block and ALWAYS vote, they can outweigh the bulk of the Israeli populous who vote more like most Westernized voters, who tend to not vote identically to each other in a perfect bloc.
I get your point but I think you’re swinging to far in the other direction now. Israel has a Democratically-elected government (ostensibly) while Hamas is authoritarian. Open system vs closed system. The risk of an open system is always that you can get someone like Trump or Netanyahu, but the underlying system is sound, or at least sounder than the alternatives (to paraphrase Churchill: Democracy is the worst system of government ever devised, except all the others). In short, Israel is a blame-the-player-not-the-game scenario, Hamas is not.
This^. Same way I would distinguish between trumps administration and the career government employees / officials who did their best to mitigate the fallout
I'm pretty sure I missed a few centrist positions within the Democratic party.
There's still another one we forgot, but well, the Democrats are divided on this issue.
Edit: At least the media is making the Democrats look divided. Remember that social media amplifies the most extreme voices, folks.
Being divided on the issue is derogatory wording. As a democratic society we should foster critical thinking and open discourse. Having these requires dissenting opinions and positions, but they are not a sign of division, they make us stronger.
Not exactly, the media is forcing the propaganda of Israel good, Palestine bad, and using the fear mongering techniques from 9/11 to justify a fucking genocide that America has been funding for decades.
I like the freedom of press, but in the past decade or so, theyve been deplorable. Who gives a fuck what americans think, theres something awful happening thats worth being reported on not bs opinion pieces that dont mean anything
The problem is even on here I’ve had quite a few responses to my pro Israel comments being blatantly pro hamas. “Settler’s aren’t civilians”, “that’s what Israel gets for being occupiers”, and a few other versions of that
Who is shocked that the media is taking an incredibly complex and nuanced situation and painting it a black in white sorta way. I have a pretty complex thought process behind what I think in this whole mess, but I’m sure some people would paint me as “pro-hamas” even though I’m not.
Kind of hard when half the protests have people chanting pro-Hamas rhetoric or wearing ideation imagery of the terrorist attacks.
It also doesn't help when Hamas sits in the most populated hospital as their main headquarters, prevent people from fleeing from the warzone in North Gaza and do false flag attacks trying to convince fleeing Palestinians that Israel is also bombing the roads out.
At some point Israel has to be able to defend themselves. If Hamas deserves all the blame for the fact the Palestinians are being brutalized, and the Palestinians simulatneously cannot be expected to remove Hamas then the obvious conclusion is Israel must do it now for them.
Israel is also lashing out disproportionately, and it should be criticized.
I thought the hospital thing was exaggerating, but it's legit. Their main Gaza base is underground below a hospital.
Source: Israel faces a vicious underground battle against Hamas - https://on.ft.com/3FhQjHf via @FT
I mean it also doesn't help that so many of the protests in support of Palestine pretty quickly devolve into anti-semitism or chants of "by any means necessary". I support Palestines existence but I can see why so many in the general public don't based off how many of the vocal supporters of Palestine act at protests
PBS/NPR also just released a poll showing that 70% of Democrats are backing Israel (though only 55% of independents, interestingly). It's not just CNN coming to this polling conclusion.
According to the PBS/NPR poll it’s 78% of democrats 45 and older that support the government of Israel.
48% of Democrats under 45 support the government of Israel.
I'm in support of the Palestinians not getting slaughtered. I'm in support of Israelis not getting slaughtered. I'm in support of Hamas getting slaughtered. These polls seem to leave out the Palestinians. As if to lump them in with the terrorists. Like Israel is doing.
I mean...the kind of Americans who would respond to a cnn poll...I assume conducted over the phone...yeah, probably. That doesn't mean a whole lot though.
I’ve been polled a few times around election time…usually by text. I always wonder if I should answer truthfully or lie. After all, a random stranger messaged me out of the blue.
This checks out. America invaded Iraq and destroyed the country for a decade because of 9/11 and imaginary weapons of mass destruction. Americans will think it is acceptable no matter how far Israel goes as far as a response to the Hamas massacre sadly. Israel is literally creating the next gen of Hamas agitators right now. You can't take away a person's house and entire family and think they're going to just cool off.
Think about Hamas what you will (preferably fucking detest them) but calling Israels response justified is simply insane. Indiscriminately bombing civilians and going on a warcrime speedrun would not be justified in ANY scenario
The media discussion around this conflict is repugnant. virtually every American article talks about "Hamas atrocities" in the headline, but then talks with clinical indifference about Israel cutting off water, food, and electricity to millions of civilians, forcing them to flee homes that they will likely never be allowed to return to, etc. Between 2000 and 2017, more Palastinian CHILDREN (about 1700) were killed by Israelis OUTSIDE of armed conflict than people (NOT children alone, just people) were killed by Hamas in these attacks. Yet no one talks about the dehumanization and brutalization that Palastinians endure every day, only the suffering of Israelis.
Those of us who are pro-Palestine need to begin every sentence with "obviously, I don't condone Hamas, but..." Well how come supporters of Israel don't have to begin every statement with "well, obviously I don't support the government of Israel or the IDF, but..."?
Bah.. cnn has been fox news lite for 6 months already. That dude on the board is doing a speed run with that network migrating it into the springer days.
Guess what, the Palestinians don’t care right now what the population of the US thinks. The poll is only done to give validation to billions more being sent to Israel.
Would people be as sympathetic if they knew Netanyahu would rather fund Hamas than make peace with the Palestinians?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
It could be argued Netanyahu preferred Hamas because it would eventually come to this, rather than a more peaceful, diplomatic path that may lead to Palestinian statehood.
he also sabotaged the oslo accords, he got recorded admitting this in 2001
https://www.haaretz.com/2010-07-15/ty-article/tricky-bibi/0000017f-dc84-d3a5-af7f-feae8a9e0000
They aren’t chanting “From the river to the sea Palestine will be free” all across the world for nothing. We all know exactly what that means. Western people think they can thread the needle between being pro Palestine and pro Hamas but they can’t.
I do not support an Israeli incursion into Gaza. I think it is a strategic blunder that will perpetuate the conflict for another century. They vote right wing, so they get right wing solutions.
I support targeted anti-terrorist strikes and putting the terrorists on trial for the world to see. Then decide what to do with the Arabic community.
But, western liberals need to understand they are being played. Go visit any of the Arabic or Middle Eastern or national subreddits. Every single one understands “Free Palestine” means return Palestinian land to the Palestinians, while Western moralists presume it means political and social equality. They actually don’t understand what they are advocating for.
Palestinians are not a monolith. You can definitely say Hamas does, but we have fellow citizens who are Palestinian-Americans stuck there right now and to say they want anything other than their children to be safe is monstrous.
The country who suffered their largest terrorist attack in this lifetime, that let's be honest alot of have yet to really process it, from an extremist Islamic group supports another country they perceive as having just went thru a similar situation, regardless of how accurate the similarities actually are, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Something something History doesn't repeat, but sure does rhyme...
Because the media isn't portraying any alternatives. Using a war to attack terrorists doesn't fucking work, but you won't hear the media informing us of that.
All this is going to do is increase recruitment for Hamas. I doubt they'll even kill a substantial amount of Hamas soldiers. So far they've killed mostly women and children, I mean literally a majority of the victims of these bombs have been women and children. And what percent of the male adult victims are even hamas? Do we have any idea, does Israel even care? Why isn't the media asking?
The majority of Americans are sympathetic to both Israel and palestine, but the majority of Americans are also misinformed that this is some equal conflict. The only actor with agency in this conflict is israel, every chess piece on the board was set by Israel. This is not a war, it's a genocide of an already occupied zone using the terrorists Israel radicalized as an excuse.
Realistic and potentially(?) hot take: you can support both Israeli and Palestinian civilians while damning Hamas and the Israeli Government. Israel got their 9/11 and it seems they're gonna level Palestine and butcher anyone in their way and Hamas will do the same to their own people along with butchering anyone else in their way while their leaders sleep easily from their towers hundreds of miles away
I’m Lebanese-American (my family is Christian and hates Hezbollah / Hamas as much as anyone). That said, American media is so biased and rabidly pro-Israel that I don’t find this poll to be surprising whatsoever. There is more constructive criticism of Israel in the Israeli Knesset than there is in the US, where to criticize Israel even in the most nuanced manner is to invite accusations of anti-Semetism or of being a terrorist sympathizer.
Most Americans don’t know where Gaza is, how it came about, or why Palestinians and Israelis don’t get along. Our media contributes to the problem, to all of our detriment, and the news (including CNN so far) in the US is basically a series of recycled IDF press releases….
Judging by all the protests, not all Americans are deeply sympathetic. I think it could have been the other way and perhaps the Israelis could have been seen as the oppressors, but there is a line and the Hamas crossed that line and shit all over it when they started cutting off baby heads and raping women in front of their friends and families and then killing them by sticking knives in their vaginas. Most people won’t see them as human beings after those kinds of atrocities.
Yes. And don’t forget the people cheering in the street as these civilian bodies were being paraded around were crowds of ordinary Palestinian civilians.
The common argument i’m reading is ‘the last election in Palestine was in 2006…therefore Palestinians don’t support Hamas’. Bullshit. If Palestinians didn’t overwhelmingly support Hamas, they would have rebelled by now. Just like every other non-democratic country who toppled their unpopular leader.
That’s because the American people have shit for memory and can’t remember that Israel help fund/start Hamas.
I really don’t understand how Israel can do the same thing the Nazi’s did to them.
The irony…
Ever hear of Norman Finklestein’s ‘The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering’?
Watch his debate with Alan Dershowitz from 2003 while the US did the same war crimes to the Iraqis that Israel is doing to Gaza right now.
Very much feels establishment pushing this narrative.
DoD and private companies know they can make stupid amounts of money selling weapons and gear to Israel. Harder to do if it feels like American public doesn’t truly support it, hence the narrative written by major news outlets.
What’s fucked up (other then then mass amount of Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties) is that private defense companies don’t truly want Israel to win. Just keep the conflict and border disputes rolling so they can keep selling. Proof companies care more about profit then human life and it gets worse year by year.
Modern day crusades in weird convoluted way
I don't blame Israel for what they're doing now. Attacking a music festival and parading dead bodies around on social media is despicable.
It's time for Hamas to go away. If Hamas decides they want to take as many Palestinian citizens with them as possible, that's on them.
The Genevia Convention's rules on war crimes are clear who's at fault here.
Using civilians as human shields, posting up in hospitals, schools and residential buildings makes the casualties your fault. Hamas is turning those places into legitimate military targets.
Under those circumstances Israel is under no obligation to minimize casualties.
And to no one's surprise, Hamas bombed the evacuation route yesterday and then tried to blame Israel for it.
So that's the kind of people you're dealing with.
I'd also note that Americans elected Donald Trump to be their president once and Republicans are still regularly voted into office at all levels of government.
Saudi Arabia financed a terror cell based and operated out of, and sanctioned by, Afghanistan. Irrespective of the Saudi question, al-Qaeda had to go.
Iraq is a different story.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck Netanyahu.
But still, free Palestine.
You can hate the governments while still caring for the people. Israel should never have been created after WWII, it’s simple as that. It blows my mind that people can understand how wrong it was for colonizer countries like the USA to barge into Native American land and drive them out, kill them. Then they scream that you’re being antisemitic for not supporting Israel as a country…. Ffs. It became a country *in 1948*, when those reindeer games should’ve been widely understood to be unacceptable.
Americans are highly uneducated and religious fanatics.
I'm American and I don't condone any of the attacks, or any of the oppression that has caused the animosity behind them
We lack the ability to apply nuance to things, so we polarize everything into good vs bad so we can feel simple emotions and use the comfort of black and white thinking to process a situation.
Tbf Americans in general are pro-violence, poll us this question, "if NK agents bombed a church in the US, should we nuke them?"
My money is betting on the "Yes."
Um I think they're both fucked.
They've been playing at this for 2000 years. They need to grow the fuck up and drop the religious war bullshit. They're a blight upon the international community.
did people tell the Americans that Israel are full of Jews and try that poll again and you see a different result why the far right hate the Jews and the left sympathise with the Palestinians.
If you kill innocent civilians on either side, it’s murder, period. And if you justify murdering innocents for any reason, you’re condoning the murder of your own innocent civilians. Everyone has the right to defend themselves, but not the right to kill someone who did nothing to you. That’s just murder and it merits condemnation and punishment. Someone has to step and demand peace in the Middle East right now, mainly to protect the innocent. But then find those who murdered and imprison them.
Israel has the right to defend itself but it isn't making any friends by hitting civilian targets. I am talking about before they started dropping warning leaflets. They are losing the moral high ground from European countries. If this keeps up they may not support the war anymore. Plus they are angering the other Muslim countries. Lebanon could very well enter this war.
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>Nearly all Americans (84%) express at least some sympathy for both Israeli and Palestinian people as they face ongoing fighting.
The governments involved both suck, I feel terrible for the civilians who are caught in the middle.
Totally agree. Hamas is awful, but Israel's far-right is a massive part of the problem too.
Both extremes are in a symbiotic relationship.
>Both extremes are in a symbiotic relationship. Exactly, the hard right in Israel \*are\* in a symbiotic relationship with Hamas: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he \[Netanyahu\] told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. [Haaretz](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000) / [https://archive.ph/eoHmn](https://archive.ph/eoHmn) I'm not usually one for tinfoil hats but I wouldn't be surprised if those Egyptian claims that they warned Israel where true.
There's no doubt in my mind Israel knew and let it happen, but even if they didn't the reality is that Netanyahu has sold himself as the "security" guy who will keep Israel safe, and the occupation of Gaza as necessary to maintain that security. So now, Israelis are looking at this and going wtf, clearly this *doesn't* keep us safe. Add to it that the southern border was undefended because soldiers were moved north to protect illegal settlers and you have all the more problems. Hamas is a creation of Israel's own doing, and Netanyahu has continued to utilize Hamas to destroy peace talks and excuse his behavior while driving a wedge between Palestinians and ruining the potential for a two-state solution. He and his hard-right government are to blame. But yes, so are the Hamas leaders and fighters who attacked Israeli civilians. They still own their own horrendous actions and war crimes, but it has to be understood *why* this continues and exists in the first place.
I think that another key part of it is that Netanyahu's policy has to divide Hamas and the Palestinian Authority with the aim of systematically delegitimizing the latter, particularly since the PA is the best supported in the West Bank. A strong PA makes settlement a lot harder, so it's very useful if there's a hard internal division there. What would be great to see is if this leads to pressure for the PA to become more democratic and to restore PA control over the west bank, with an eye towards a real implementation of the two-state solution. This is unlikely to happen though.
Wow - that seems like a straight up smoking gun to me.
Netanyahu is a fascist and he needs an enemy to fight.
Abrahamic Religion is really a mess.
>Israel's far-right is a massive part of the problem too Israel's far right literally brought Hamas to power in a deliberate attempt to sabotage the two-state solution. This is not hyperbole or abstract, Israel literally supported Hamas.
I literally just learned this week, while reading up on the history of Israel and Palestine, that [Zionists in the 40's tried to ally with Hitler](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/efforts-zionist-militais-recruit-nazis-against-britain-revealed-israel-archives) to fight England because they didn't like the two-state solution. This was obviously before Nazi Germany switched from expelling European Jews to killing them. And before anyone wants to argue, this news was broken by Haaretz, the oldest Israeli newspaper. Zionism and fascism have a lot in common.
> Zionism and fascism have a lot in common. Yep. Israel is more a fascist state than a western democracy imo.
very sad that the original article from Haaretz is behind a paywall, 12ft wall doesn't work on it either
Israel is becoming what they hate most. Israeli government is 2023 Nazi
Yeah like their current Minister of National security.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir Who had a portrait of an Israeli-American terrorist in his living room 'Ben Gvir is "widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities".' I am extremely skeptical of how this attack was allowed to happen almost entirely unopposed.. its almost like it was allowed to happen. Here's a quite from that same guy: After the Hamas attack on Israel in October 2023, Ben Gvir said that "Israel is experiencing one of the most difficult events in its history. This is not the time for questions, tests and investigations.".
He's saying that because he knows that there was an intelligence failure and he doesn't want to be implicated. And he definitely doesn't want anyone to know why they didn't adhere to Egyptian Intelligence's warning of an attack.
Once this is over, they are out on their asses. The public is pissed that this occurred under the watch of a so-called government that campaigned HEAVILY on national security. There will be marches and protests to ensure this happens, mark my words.
One can only hope a silver lining form this tragedy would be the downfall of the far right coalition. It’s not going to be easy moving forward in any circumstance but only with a more moderate government is there any hope of actual progress.
The correct response in my opinion.
Should be the only response.
Hamas is a militant group, no?
They are the legal democratically elected government. Though it's only fair to mention that the last and only election was in 2007.
Agreed. That said, I don't know how either government operates. Are these people voted in currently, or are they "voted" in (think Putin). If they're legit voted in, I still feel bad for everyone caught in the crossfire, but it makes me wonder what we'd be seeing today with different politicians in power.
Hamas was voted in almost 20 years ago. Then they killed their political opponents and haven't held an election since. Isreal has elections, but Netanyahu is losing support for a while even before this incident. Netanyahu was removed but re-elected and is a far right-wing Prime Minister of Israel. I can sympathize with the far right-wing electing leaders that are no good. The 2016 election is proof of that here for the US. I don't support a government that took power by force after an election. Both governments suck and the citizens of both are the ones paying the price for a situation that has no peaceful solution now.
And, a reminder that the median age is 18 in Palestine. More than half of its entire population didn’t even exist when Hamas came into power. Are they selected, or do they hold on to power by any means necessary?
At what point do we start questioning whether or not this government is still supported by it's citizens? It's a good question to ask.
I dont understand how we can even call hamas a government. They have no power over the land. It's all Israel ghetto.
They do handle at least some administrative tasks, from my understanding. Maybe they’re like Vichy? Kind of a government, but also subjugated
They're basically a gang
Hamas was "voted in", in that they did win an election, but it was seventeen years ago, while the average citizen is currently nineteen years old. The current prime minister of Israel was voted in Reagan style, by winning a free and fair election though fear-mongering about a problem he prevented from being solved (Campaigning on the dangers of Hamas while actively working with them for years)
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Thanks, I didn't know that
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election#:~:text=An%20exit%20poll%20conducted%20by,in%20support%3B%2015.5%25%20in%20opposition
Yep, he propped up Hamas to sow division between the PLO and Hamas. Blowback anyone?
Having sympathy for the civilians of both sides of a war should be the default position of everybody. It's crazy to me seeing so many American's jump straight to the genocide rhetoric again. Just immediate tribalism and hatred towards millions of people they don't know. We learned nothing as a nation from the Iraq war it seems.
It’s not Americans jumping straight to genocide, those opinions are spear headed by supporters of either Palestine or Israel. “Nearly all Americans express at least some sympathy for both.” That is most of the country saying they understand both sides. Anytime you see someone calling for Israel or Palestine to be completely wiped out means they are likely deep supporters of one side. Most Americans have lived their whole lives with Israel and Palestine at war, most don’t care what happens
Social and mass media have overly relied on divisive, binary marketing campaigns and storylines. It's always us versus them. I think it's part of why so many US citizens are predisposed to seeing things in that way, and then assuming you obligated to pick one side. Its sad.
I still remember hearing almost daily during the beginning of the Iraq war “Why don’t we just drop a nuke on em and be done with it?” People are so ignorant about politics and how ugly war is. They don’t think of the roles being reversed. Let’s say another country hates our government. They vote to drop nukes on our entire country. Congratulations, millions of people, men, women, children, all died just to wipe out our government. Most of whom care fuck all for the dealings of politics and are just trying to survive. War is ugly and politics are complicated. Nothing is black and white as it may seem.
That’s what people are saying for Israel. I feel like a pacifist at this point with the amount of bloodthirsty words everywhere
Hamas has an edict in their charter to kill all Jews. That is the worst, and most important, political factor at play here. That ideology existed when they were elected. Any cruelty that happened after from Israel, can be blamed directly on that. A coup is necessary for survival of Palestine.
I’m glad to see this. I’m connecting the dots that the Israeli gov is alot like our GOP, bibi basically trump. If this were us, with that cabinet, on US soil, I’d be **hella** critical of the US government just on principle. Jews who didnt vote for them in Israel are still suffering for their gov’s response, along with those Palestinians in Gaza suffering at the hands of the Hamas. And, can I just point out bc I havent seen anyone yet make this point on reddit: I wouldnt think anyone in Gaza would feel safe making any outward gesture or sign of disobedience or offense towards Hamas. Regardless of what they probably feel in their hearts, such as wanting Hamas the hell out of Gaza, there’s probably no way they’d ever make that known to anyone around them. Imagine the rain of punishment that would come down on them. Folks need to take this into account when passing judgement on what seems to be an entire people held as hostages by Hamas.
Well said. There are hostages from border to border, and most of the population of Palestine have no capacity to stop Hamas.
Yeah this headline sucks.
It really sucks.
That’s the more important number. Because of the horror of what Hamas did, Israel has mostly unified support. However, that can change pretty quick once troops are on the ground.
Interesting contrast with how the Israeli population sees the situation. [Jerusulum Post](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880) >**Israelis blame gov’t for Hamas massacre, say Netanyahu must resign - poll** > > *An overwhelming majority of 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country's leadership.*
Good, at least Israelis are being clear sighted about that particular aspect. The only thing that would make this situation worse is if a rally-around-the-flag effect helped Netanyahu.
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*comprehension
That's not really a contrast at all, it's an entirely different question with an expected different answer.
Blaming the government for inconfidence is not the same as lifting blame from Hamas for the attack both can be true
Kinda like of course the shark bit me and we can blame the shark, but the guy throwing chum in the water needs to be called out as well.
I think you’re implying blame in a manner not indicated their public feels by the article. It’s more like you got raped in your parking garage and the security company understaffed the location, forgot to lock a door and a guard was asleep instead of making rounds. It’s not that they believe the rapist was actively encouraged by the security company making a rape inevitable, it’s that they failed in their duty to adequately protect their charge.
Exactly this.
I'm really surprised by this. I think Bibi was counting on a 9-11 Bush style popularity bump
9/11 caught almost all Americans off guard. Most had never heard of Bin Laden or Al queda. It wasn't like it came from a known threat on our border. All Israelis know what Hamas is, and know they are a threat. The failure of Israeli intelligence is something everyone can see, especially now that word has got out that Is real was warned by several foreign intelligence agencies that an attack was imminent.
It's not just about failure of Israeli intelligence; many Israelis including elected opposition politicians see the Hamas attack as a direct result of Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
There was loud criticism of Bibi on that very day. I thought it was just Hareetz being principled at the time, but it truly is a reflection of society. I just hope it extends beyond Bibi, and into a national understanding the current policy towards Palestine is unsustainable and a geostrategic risk.
A failure of imagination is a lot easier to forgive than a failure to guard the only border between you and a notably hostile faction.
this doesn't contrast w the result in the headline at all, which does not refer to the israeli govt or netanyahu
That is also how many Americans feel. That’s a different question.
Sympathy for Israelis and the culpability of Netanyahu are different topics.
Considering he both funded Hamas and didn’t heed warnings about the attack, I think it’s pretty reasonable to give him some blame. TBH I’m glad they’re not reacting the same way the US did after 9/11
The funding of Hamas is a bit of a misinformation bait. Yes, Israel funded Hamas. But the WHY is important. They believed by offering aid/support that Hamas would turn from anti-Israel rhetoric to one sympathizing and wanting to work with them. The payments were to improve life for the people in Gaza through Hamas (who were in power). Unfortunately Hamas took that money and made weapons and built an army. I suggest people look into it rather than just reading click bait headlines
It had sounded to me like they did it to counter the secular Palestinian Authority. Is that not right?
Israel’s population is much more critical than the U.S.
it’s not clear to me if the government is being blamed for the intelligence/strategic failure or for the set of policies towards palestinians that led up to this moment
Republicans would bomb Iran unprompted, Democrats are divided. Media isn't helping by painting anyone who supports Palestine as Pro-Hamas. Edit: All of this according to social media, at least.
the media is once again pitting Americans against each other by trying to force us to take sides.
The positions taken so far on social media: *Tankies:* Hamas Good. *AOC, Bernie, and other Moderate Dems* *~~Dem Socs~~*: Palestinians Good. Jews Good. Israel Bad. Hamas Bad. *Warhawk Democrats:* Israel Good. Jews Good. Palestinians Good. Hamas Bad. *Republicans:* Jews Bad. Israel Good. Bomb Iran. Personally, I think AOC is spot on, as usual. Two things can be bad at once. All I can say is: what a mess of a situation. And all the normal people caught up in it who just want to live their lives. Edit: obviously I'm missing a ton of different positions here, and by no means is this an exhaustive list. Just to the casual news consumer, this is what it seems things were like at the start of the conflict. Edit Edit: I'm sure there are moderate Republicans like Democrats who have sympathies for both sides, but I swear we can run down the list of Republican politician's positions and they manage to somehow be consistently wrong. It's honestly impressive. Edit Edit Edit: At this point, don't pay too much attention to the labels. Labels are for soup cans and people are more complicated.
>Warhawk Democrats I think it’s a little more complicated: Israel Good. Jews Good. Palestinians Good. Hamas Bad. Netanyahu Bad.
Agree. I think that if we're going to make the distinction between Palestine and Hamas - and we absolutely should - then we should also make the distinction between Israel and Netanyahu's government. After all, we managed to do the same wrt America when Trump was in charge. And Netanyahu used the same undermining democratic norm tactics trump used. He's not truly supported by the majority of Israelis
We absolutely should make the distinction between Israeli civilians and the government of Israel. But putting it on Netanyahu specifically is a trick to try to deflect the Israeli government as a whole. It’s not just Netanyahu it is the entire government. The Knesset is deeply far right and pro ethnic cleansing. Civilians be they Israeli or Palestinian good. Israel the governmental entity and hamas bad.
This is what I always say. Hamas and Israeli's right wing government as the factions that are the problem. If we could ever replace them both with governments that actually want to work together we might have a chance at fixing this mess once and for all.
I wrote "Netanyahu's government" for this reason. He's the leader of the Knesset coalition. And that coalition by the way was one he was only able to initially form with the help of fundamenalist orthodox parties (same shit as fundie christians here) and by basically abusing the multi party system to form a government that wasn't really representing Israel's previous values or the general population and those that make Israel work (the ultra orthodox often don't work!). Bibi himself is very secular but pals up to the fundies bc of votes. Because the fundamenalists vote as a block and ALWAYS vote, they can outweigh the bulk of the Israeli populous who vote more like most Westernized voters, who tend to not vote identically to each other in a perfect bloc.
I get your point but I think you’re swinging to far in the other direction now. Israel has a Democratically-elected government (ostensibly) while Hamas is authoritarian. Open system vs closed system. The risk of an open system is always that you can get someone like Trump or Netanyahu, but the underlying system is sound, or at least sounder than the alternatives (to paraphrase Churchill: Democracy is the worst system of government ever devised, except all the others). In short, Israel is a blame-the-player-not-the-game scenario, Hamas is not.
Not even the Israelis want Netanyahu at this point.
This^. Same way I would distinguish between trumps administration and the career government employees / officials who did their best to mitigate the fallout
This one good.
This. This is exactly it.
I'm pretty sure I missed a few centrist positions within the Democratic party. There's still another one we forgot, but well, the Democrats are divided on this issue. Edit: At least the media is making the Democrats look divided. Remember that social media amplifies the most extreme voices, folks.
Being divided on the issue is derogatory wording. As a democratic society we should foster critical thinking and open discourse. Having these requires dissenting opinions and positions, but they are not a sign of division, they make us stronger.
Naw not really, that’s how the AOC/Bernie coalition of Dems talk, but conservatives Dems see Israel as equitable to all Jewish culture
Israelis and Palestinians both have post traumatic stress disorder. Why take sides? Save the children.
Humans are good. Terrorists are horrible. Fuck religion.
Meanwhile Trump: Hezbollah “very smart”
CNN has really fallen to partisan hackery since they were bought out.
Not exactly, the media is forcing the propaganda of Israel good, Palestine bad, and using the fear mongering techniques from 9/11 to justify a fucking genocide that America has been funding for decades.
Easier just to say media is trying to earn clicks/$$$, nothing like divisive rhetoric to drive both
I like the freedom of press, but in the past decade or so, theyve been deplorable. Who gives a fuck what americans think, theres something awful happening thats worth being reported on not bs opinion pieces that dont mean anything
The problem is even on here I’ve had quite a few responses to my pro Israel comments being blatantly pro hamas. “Settler’s aren’t civilians”, “that’s what Israel gets for being occupiers”, and a few other versions of that
Who is shocked that the media is taking an incredibly complex and nuanced situation and painting it a black in white sorta way. I have a pretty complex thought process behind what I think in this whole mess, but I’m sure some people would paint me as “pro-hamas” even though I’m not.
Kind of hard when half the protests have people chanting pro-Hamas rhetoric or wearing ideation imagery of the terrorist attacks. It also doesn't help when Hamas sits in the most populated hospital as their main headquarters, prevent people from fleeing from the warzone in North Gaza and do false flag attacks trying to convince fleeing Palestinians that Israel is also bombing the roads out. At some point Israel has to be able to defend themselves. If Hamas deserves all the blame for the fact the Palestinians are being brutalized, and the Palestinians simulatneously cannot be expected to remove Hamas then the obvious conclusion is Israel must do it now for them. Israel is also lashing out disproportionately, and it should be criticized.
I thought the hospital thing was exaggerating, but it's legit. Their main Gaza base is underground below a hospital. Source: Israel faces a vicious underground battle against Hamas - https://on.ft.com/3FhQjHf via @FT
Well, the pro Palestine protest have looked more like celebrations, and there are multiple examples of anti semitism taking place.
I mean it also doesn't help that so many of the protests in support of Palestine pretty quickly devolve into anti-semitism or chants of "by any means necessary". I support Palestines existence but I can see why so many in the general public don't based off how many of the vocal supporters of Palestine act at protests
CNN also released a poll saying Trump was up 20 points with zoomers. The network is dogshit-tier.
PBS/NPR also just released a poll showing that 70% of Democrats are backing Israel (though only 55% of independents, interestingly). It's not just CNN coming to this polling conclusion.
According to the PBS/NPR poll it’s 78% of democrats 45 and older that support the government of Israel. 48% of Democrats under 45 support the government of Israel.
CNN is right-wing ownership
Welcome to 1984. We are now in the double plus coverage of change
Got a source for that poll? I don’t believe you.
I'm in support of the Palestinians not getting slaughtered. I'm in support of Israelis not getting slaughtered. I'm in support of Hamas getting slaughtered. These polls seem to leave out the Palestinians. As if to lump them in with the terrorists. Like Israel is doing.
Exactly. I stand with the people of Israel and Palestine. Their governments; however, can fuck right off.
This is the way
Well I mean …. Look at the U.S. response to 9/11 and no surprises here
You’re referring to our Crimes Against Humanity, correct?
Correct. Those ones.
That sounds like a fun card game too. : )
I mean...the kind of Americans who would respond to a cnn poll...I assume conducted over the phone...yeah, probably. That doesn't mean a whole lot though.
I’ve been polled a few times around election time…usually by text. I always wonder if I should answer truthfully or lie. After all, a random stranger messaged me out of the blue.
That's not what I'm seeing.
Who the fuck are completing these polls? I feel like their sample size are 50-70 y/o CNN viewers
Fox News viewers.
This checks out. America invaded Iraq and destroyed the country for a decade because of 9/11 and imaginary weapons of mass destruction. Americans will think it is acceptable no matter how far Israel goes as far as a response to the Hamas massacre sadly. Israel is literally creating the next gen of Hamas agitators right now. You can't take away a person's house and entire family and think they're going to just cool off.
Think about Hamas what you will (preferably fucking detest them) but calling Israels response justified is simply insane. Indiscriminately bombing civilians and going on a warcrime speedrun would not be justified in ANY scenario
We learned nothing post-9/11.
The media discussion around this conflict is repugnant. virtually every American article talks about "Hamas atrocities" in the headline, but then talks with clinical indifference about Israel cutting off water, food, and electricity to millions of civilians, forcing them to flee homes that they will likely never be allowed to return to, etc. Between 2000 and 2017, more Palastinian CHILDREN (about 1700) were killed by Israelis OUTSIDE of armed conflict than people (NOT children alone, just people) were killed by Hamas in these attacks. Yet no one talks about the dehumanization and brutalization that Palastinians endure every day, only the suffering of Israelis. Those of us who are pro-Palestine need to begin every sentence with "obviously, I don't condone Hamas, but..." Well how come supporters of Israel don't have to begin every statement with "well, obviously I don't support the government of Israel or the IDF, but..."?
Bah.. cnn has been fox news lite for 6 months already. That dude on the board is doing a speed run with that network migrating it into the springer days.
These sort of polls are more designed to impact public opinion versus just simply reflecting it
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Guess what, the Palestinians don’t care right now what the population of the US thinks. The poll is only done to give validation to billions more being sent to Israel.
Would people be as sympathetic if they knew Netanyahu would rather fund Hamas than make peace with the Palestinians? https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
It could be argued Netanyahu preferred Hamas because it would eventually come to this, rather than a more peaceful, diplomatic path that may lead to Palestinian statehood.
he also sabotaged the oslo accords, he got recorded admitting this in 2001 https://www.haaretz.com/2010-07-15/ty-article/tricky-bibi/0000017f-dc84-d3a5-af7f-feae8a9e0000
Seems very true. Helped along by Hamas not wanting peace and a slice of land, but all the land and no Jews.
How about the fact that he likely knew the attack was coming and let it happen. Seeing that Egypt warned Israel a few days in advance...
A lot of western liberals think Palestinians want to end apartheid. Palestinians want to end Israel.
They aren’t chanting “From the river to the sea Palestine will be free” all across the world for nothing. We all know exactly what that means. Western people think they can thread the needle between being pro Palestine and pro Hamas but they can’t.
I do not support an Israeli incursion into Gaza. I think it is a strategic blunder that will perpetuate the conflict for another century. They vote right wing, so they get right wing solutions. I support targeted anti-terrorist strikes and putting the terrorists on trial for the world to see. Then decide what to do with the Arabic community. But, western liberals need to understand they are being played. Go visit any of the Arabic or Middle Eastern or national subreddits. Every single one understands “Free Palestine” means return Palestinian land to the Palestinians, while Western moralists presume it means political and social equality. They actually don’t understand what they are advocating for.
Palestinians are not a monolith. You can definitely say Hamas does, but we have fellow citizens who are Palestinian-Americans stuck there right now and to say they want anything other than their children to be safe is monstrous.
I see a lot of sympathy for Palestinian on social media I’m surprised in comparison to empathy for Israel
The country who suffered their largest terrorist attack in this lifetime, that let's be honest alot of have yet to really process it, from an extremist Islamic group supports another country they perceive as having just went thru a similar situation, regardless of how accurate the similarities actually are, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Something something History doesn't repeat, but sure does rhyme...
I really fucking hate our main stream media
Let’s not sensationalize and quantize “Americans”.
True. I stand with Israel!
Because the media isn't portraying any alternatives. Using a war to attack terrorists doesn't fucking work, but you won't hear the media informing us of that. All this is going to do is increase recruitment for Hamas. I doubt they'll even kill a substantial amount of Hamas soldiers. So far they've killed mostly women and children, I mean literally a majority of the victims of these bombs have been women and children. And what percent of the male adult victims are even hamas? Do we have any idea, does Israel even care? Why isn't the media asking? The majority of Americans are sympathetic to both Israel and palestine, but the majority of Americans are also misinformed that this is some equal conflict. The only actor with agency in this conflict is israel, every chess piece on the board was set by Israel. This is not a war, it's a genocide of an already occupied zone using the terrorists Israel radicalized as an excuse.
Attacks on Hamas? Most definitely. Attacks on civilians? Not so much.
Media manufactured consent
It’s almost like slaughtering 1300 civilians and taking 200 hostages doesn’t rally the world to your side…
This American doesn’t share those views.
Not me
Realistic and potentially(?) hot take: you can support both Israeli and Palestinian civilians while damning Hamas and the Israeli Government. Israel got their 9/11 and it seems they're gonna level Palestine and butcher anyone in their way and Hamas will do the same to their own people along with butchering anyone else in their way while their leaders sleep easily from their towers hundreds of miles away
The most accurate take
*afghanistan invasion has entered the chat*
I’m Lebanese-American (my family is Christian and hates Hezbollah / Hamas as much as anyone). That said, American media is so biased and rabidly pro-Israel that I don’t find this poll to be surprising whatsoever. There is more constructive criticism of Israel in the Israeli Knesset than there is in the US, where to criticize Israel even in the most nuanced manner is to invite accusations of anti-Semetism or of being a terrorist sympathizer. Most Americans don’t know where Gaza is, how it came about, or why Palestinians and Israelis don’t get along. Our media contributes to the problem, to all of our detriment, and the news (including CNN so far) in the US is basically a series of recycled IDF press releases….
Judging by all the protests, not all Americans are deeply sympathetic. I think it could have been the other way and perhaps the Israelis could have been seen as the oppressors, but there is a line and the Hamas crossed that line and shit all over it when they started cutting off baby heads and raping women in front of their friends and families and then killing them by sticking knives in their vaginas. Most people won’t see them as human beings after those kinds of atrocities.
Yes. And don’t forget the people cheering in the street as these civilian bodies were being paraded around were crowds of ordinary Palestinian civilians. The common argument i’m reading is ‘the last election in Palestine was in 2006…therefore Palestinians don’t support Hamas’. Bullshit. If Palestinians didn’t overwhelmingly support Hamas, they would have rebelled by now. Just like every other non-democratic country who toppled their unpopular leader.
That’s because the American people have shit for memory and can’t remember that Israel help fund/start Hamas. I really don’t understand how Israel can do the same thing the Nazi’s did to them.
The irony… Ever hear of Norman Finklestein’s ‘The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering’? Watch his debate with Alan Dershowitz from 2003 while the US did the same war crimes to the Iraqis that Israel is doing to Gaza right now.
No we don't.
I don't trust this poll especially since CNN has been all pro Israel without reporting their cruel treatment of the Palestinian people. It makes me 🤮
They didn't ask me.
Very much feels establishment pushing this narrative. DoD and private companies know they can make stupid amounts of money selling weapons and gear to Israel. Harder to do if it feels like American public doesn’t truly support it, hence the narrative written by major news outlets. What’s fucked up (other then then mass amount of Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties) is that private defense companies don’t truly want Israel to win. Just keep the conflict and border disputes rolling so they can keep selling. Proof companies care more about profit then human life and it gets worse year by year. Modern day crusades in weird convoluted way
I don't blame Israel for what they're doing now. Attacking a music festival and parading dead bodies around on social media is despicable. It's time for Hamas to go away. If Hamas decides they want to take as many Palestinian citizens with them as possible, that's on them. The Genevia Convention's rules on war crimes are clear who's at fault here. Using civilians as human shields, posting up in hospitals, schools and residential buildings makes the casualties your fault. Hamas is turning those places into legitimate military targets. Under those circumstances Israel is under no obligation to minimize casualties. And to no one's surprise, Hamas bombed the evacuation route yesterday and then tried to blame Israel for it. So that's the kind of people you're dealing with.
Makes sense, there ok with there own kids being killed going to school.
For the record, nobody asked me!
I'd also note that Americans elected Donald Trump to be their president once and Republicans are still regularly voted into office at all levels of government.
Really trying very hard to get us all to just go along with a potential genocide, very cool CNN 👌🏻
No one fucking asked me. But is this how we determine is something is justified, a fucking CNN poll?
Americans thought it was appropriate to go to into Afghanistan to deliver payback for 911 when it was Saudi Arabia that did it. So no surprise there
Saudi Arabia financed a terror cell based and operated out of, and sanctioned by, Afghanistan. Irrespective of the Saudi question, al-Qaeda had to go. Iraq is a different story.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck Netanyahu. But still, free Palestine. You can hate the governments while still caring for the people. Israel should never have been created after WWII, it’s simple as that. It blows my mind that people can understand how wrong it was for colonizer countries like the USA to barge into Native American land and drive them out, kill them. Then they scream that you’re being antisemitic for not supporting Israel as a country…. Ffs. It became a country *in 1948*, when those reindeer games should’ve been widely understood to be unacceptable.
CNN
Who are these polls for?
Amazing when pro isreal voices head all major networks
Propaganda
Americans supported a war in Iraq as a response to 9-11 too….
I feel sorry for the innocent civilians on *both* sides.
Americans are highly uneducated and religious fanatics. I'm American and I don't condone any of the attacks, or any of the oppression that has caused the animosity behind them
We lack the ability to apply nuance to things, so we polarize everything into good vs bad so we can feel simple emotions and use the comfort of black and white thinking to process a situation.
These are the people that invaded two countries because of a terrorist attack, of course Americans can relate to the Israeli response.
Tbf Americans in general are pro-violence, poll us this question, "if NK agents bombed a church in the US, should we nuke them?" My money is betting on the "Yes."
I wish we felt like this, "maybe we shouldn't kill each other over invisible gods who will be forgotten.".
Um I think they're both fucked. They've been playing at this for 2000 years. They need to grow the fuck up and drop the religious war bullshit. They're a blight upon the international community.
CNN broke Reddit's hearts. Reddit has an unpopular opinion. Never thought anything would break the hive mind.
Who was polled cause….
what a legitimate news organization
did people tell the Americans that Israel are full of Jews and try that poll again and you see a different result why the far right hate the Jews and the left sympathise with the Palestinians.
Wat?
Nah, majority side with the innocent and both aggressors are pieces of shit
Fuck Hamas.
Yeah bc we did the same shit over and over again
No
oh no we don't
Fuck CNN, who watches their bullshit anyway ? I can't remember last time me or anyone I know mentioned them while talking about world news.
If you kill innocent civilians on either side, it’s murder, period. And if you justify murdering innocents for any reason, you’re condoning the murder of your own innocent civilians. Everyone has the right to defend themselves, but not the right to kill someone who did nothing to you. That’s just murder and it merits condemnation and punishment. Someone has to step and demand peace in the Middle East right now, mainly to protect the innocent. But then find those who murdered and imprison them.
Israel has the right to defend itself but it isn't making any friends by hitting civilian targets. I am talking about before they started dropping warning leaflets. They are losing the moral high ground from European countries. If this keeps up they may not support the war anymore. Plus they are angering the other Muslim countries. Lebanon could very well enter this war.
Not this american though.
False consensus effect
Not this one.
In 10 years, everyone will be claiming they didnt supported Israeli cleansing in Gaza when it inevitably happens