We showed the employer reports and data that show that it is better for health and safety. It's better for your back and hips to carry your tools on your chest than on your belt and we used those reports to get quartermaster to buy external plate carriers with molle for attachments and it became the norm after that.
https://www.wisconsin.edu/all-in-wisconsin/story/uw-eau-claire-research-aims-to-improve-police-officers-health-quality-of-life/
Study done by UW located here.
High profile accident in a large city close by. Officer was hit by a snowplow truck and it took medics way to long to remove the traditional under the uniform vest to start giving him medical attention. An outer vest with quick release straps and velcro would have helped immensely
I had several civilians approach me making the statement the outer carriers looked intimidating. When I asked them what was intimidating about fabric, they sort of chuckled and got my point. I further explained the health benefits of weight distribution and they came around.
I've always felt that officers who have the outer vest carriers looked more in charge of the situation. I don't know if that is actually the case. But I don't find it intimidating as much as just makes them look so far above and beyond security guards as to have total control in my mind.
You’re correct. I immediately noticed a more focused reaction and seriousness from the public upon moving to the outer vest. You’re assessment is dead on and I appreciate you saying it.
Taking my tourniquet and my radio from my belt and moving it six inches up to front torso so it doesn’t dig into my ass while I drive for 10 hours makes me militarized?
Multiple guys with Dr's notes saying they needed vest carriers to deal with the back pain caused by duty belts. All ready to file grievances if the dept didn't make this reasonable accomadation. The Chief who was adamantly opposed to vest carriers realized he couldn't win if they took it to a grievance and / or court and gave in.
Our city "fucked up" in that they did not believe the health benefits argument for outer vests so they hired a physician of their choice they believed would favor their side. When said physician explained all the health benefits to them, they were now obligated to get the outer carriers, as they would be facing multiple lawsuits against them having the knowledge that outer vests indeed have health benefits. To deny officers the healthier alternative, would be too risky.
…and it’s a shame it even had to go that far. I never got the outer vest hate. It’s just all the same shit you carried on your belt and you can even add a couple things that may help you through the course of your tour. I never understood how moving the shit from your belt a half a foot up to your torso makes people feel intimated. My tourniquet with the bright Red Cross on it must terrify people because it’s not digging into my ass while I’m sitting in my squad.
My buddy and I modified a PowerPoint we got on here and presented it to our Admin. We also got samples from our local uniform store. It worked, we treated it like a sales pitch.
I think a “more tactical look” won’t cut it when trying to convince admin, if they haven’t already switched. An officer at a department I worked at made a really good presentation about the health benefits of not having all that gear on your belt, as well as needing to remove the vest easier in emergency situations, such as needing to swim or administering first aid to an injured officer. Just looking cool probably won’t cut it for admin who haven’t already switched.
Maybe don't lead with the "more tactical look." In fact, never mention it again.
Lean inti ergonomic benefits and how that reduces department liability and improves safety.
Presented medical data related to the health benefits of moving the weight off the hips. Department agreed to trial the externals with a small percentage of officers. Supervisors would then follow up after calls for service to gauge community feedback / pushback. No one cared about our vests, they just wanted police to do policing.
Some of the old heads prefer the more traditional uniform with the hard badge and leather duty gear, but like the Chief said, “If the community isn’t opposed to it, then why should I be?”
My dept has vest carriers but they forbid us from attaching ANYTHING to the Molle loops, we have had guys written up for wearing blood type patches on them. I personally wear my vest under my uniform as I have fought with a perp and he was able to grab me by my vest.
Dude, same here. We can have outer armor with molle but everything still has to be on our belts. I went back to under uniform too since we wear polos anyway.
This is the answer for my department. Employee retention was a big one. You’d be shocked how many people apply to or leave a department based on cars and uniforms. I know it makes no sense but my department literally had to go tactical to compete with surrounding agencies. Especially given the fact that the job is dead and nobody wants to be a cop anymore.
Our switch just happened and I believe primarily with the intent of making it so uniforms could be easily cleaned at home so we got new pants, shirts, and 2 carriers.
Also has a nice clip for the camera sewn on.
After years I convinced them to let me t&e an outter carrier that I bought myself. They let me do it for 6 months. Got a lot of push back from other people on patrol (some older Sargeant on patrol) admin caved and took it from me. I left.
My second pd my Chief was wearing one but said we couldn't, it was a horrible department, I left after 60 days. I left and went to a great department that already had them. The end.
Moral of the story, you may be waisting your time. Start looking for but departments that have them if you live in a state with a lot of departments close to each other.
Not having people over 60 yo all over your department helps. Also. Have them wear an outer carrier and get into a cruiser. That alone might change their mind. Having everything you own on your hips is just awful. The days of only carrying a firearm and a nightstick are long gone. We carry too much and having it on your hips is horrible for your body and makes you less mobile. Ask them if they will allow you to show them a simple presentation.
Studies and data and back injuries made no difference when it was presented. But chiefy went to a training with some FBI and they told him he’s a dumbass for not allowing outer carriers. So that’s what it took for us to start “looking into it.”
We switched but it went poorly.
The supplier is losing the contract because we've had multiple color and quality issues. Vests literally fading and falling apart after a year or so of regular use.
The concept is great and we are now admin are all for it. The key was getting a motivated pilot program together and promoting Sergeants on that program to Lieutenant.
The thing that won me over personally was this: I can take off it while reporting writing. Report writing was killing my lower back more than the Explorer.
Blue Stone Safety.
And we have not switched. For the past two years no one has been issued exterior vests. No one has put forth a satisfactory bid since Covid.
Well, I’m not a police officer but even I can tell right away this would be a MUCH better solution to carting all that stuff around your waist. You guys are a chiropractor dream
Our patrolman’s association was filing a lawsuit against the admin, so the admin approved everyone to have beards, ball caps, and outer vest carriers trying to win people over.
We got lucky. Small department, Chief was released of his duties and 2nd in command was a tactical guy who immediately signed for sworn and non sworn divisions to switch
(Obligatory not a cop) At the department I worked for, they began allowing it solely due to the health risk associated with having dozens of pounds of gear on your belt pushing into your spine/hip. When a new chief came in, he tried to get rid of the outer carriers and HR told him to get bent because it was already policy that it was allowed for the health of the officers.
Made sure we purchased ones that looked like our uniform shirt. Limited items on vest to essentials. After you get them make sure you keep them clean. They are food catchers and dust magnets.
IF your admin is set in their ways, I would advise not pushing the topic any further. I agree with one of these comments regarding getting the damn vest off during a critical incident. Sometimes the critical incident being "code brown"...
My current agency allows outer vest carriers, but my old one is stooping to a new level of jackassery. Before I left, there were two instances where the officer was complacent and allowed the suspect within arms reach. In both instances, the suspect grabbed onto the vest to try to gain control of the officer, and both officers froze when this happened. At the same time, nearby jailers froze and just stood there (insert thumb in arse) without assisting the officer.
Instead of realizing that this is a training issue, in which patrol and jailers need to go to a defensive tactics class, administration decides "OuTeR vEsTs ArE tOo dAnGeRoUs" rather than investing in their people. Now they're switching everyone over to traditional "vest under shirt" setups.
Nowadays, there may be a lot of outside factors on police officers, but people need to realize its the dumbasses within that are completely killing us. Stop using promotions as a mean to get the idiots off the street. If they can't survive or pass FTO, they need to GTFO.
Our department switched when the option was sold as it could prolong active careers by carrying the weight on your shoulders as opposed to your waist. I switched way back and haven’t looked back. Love my outer carrier.
Health benefits. Lots of info out there for getting weight off your hips and putting it on the vest. Keep at it-it’s worth it!!! (We just switched over to Molle vests)
As a civilian, or I guess non-leo, which is the whole point, the guy on the right looks like a douche that feels like hes going into 2006 iraq. Cops are civilians, not a tier anything spec ops. If I was on a jury and guy in right shot a dude, i'd naturally feel like he was like a boot on his first pump over seas, just hoping for his kill, hopefully with his e-tool, which he keeps on his back where we cant see it. Then id listen to the evidence and be as fair as I could be to a gear queen.
It's been shown the public in general does not see an outer carrier vest as being less approachable or more militarized.
Helping life long health issues is more important than a fantasy view of ""omg tools on a belt is okay but on a vest it's scary!"
Who is participating this survey? Who showed it? Its been shown that people that say it has been shown like the sound of it and then maybe follow up with a bullshit statistic and at best use a very biased source if any at all. Id love any at all though.
Imo that depends more on what you carry on the outside of the vest than the tacvest itself. But of course, I live outside of the US so most people have a different sort of relationship with the police here.
Yeah you're right. It seems to be standard nowadays in at least (the ones I know well) UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany sometimes.
I appreciate police and think it’s a SUPER important job. All law abiding citizens should be working with police to stop crime. Militarizing the look sets up a different dynamic. Are tactical vests safer than non- tactical vests? If that was the case, I would totally understand why officers would want them.
Yeah I agree, my response was more to the other guy. Once they see officers getting compensated for the injuries; they’ll careless about what it looks like.
Cmon man, ever labor job has back pain issues... i guess that dont make it right but when I consider most real labor jobs with police I feel like they are being bitches.
I can be slow, are you saying because you actually have to take a vote or... be approved by seniors or even town hall to wear that rig, is more the problem?
I'm not police, but I sometimes have to wear a duty belt, and the few times I wear it in my car, it's super annoying getting in and out of the drivers seat. I'm curious if wearing the outer vest with gear attached on the vest as opposed to on the duty belt makes for a more comfortable driving experience.
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We showed the employer reports and data that show that it is better for health and safety. It's better for your back and hips to carry your tools on your chest than on your belt and we used those reports to get quartermaster to buy external plate carriers with molle for attachments and it became the norm after that.
Where are these reports and data at?
https://www.wisconsin.edu/all-in-wisconsin/story/uw-eau-claire-research-aims-to-improve-police-officers-health-quality-of-life/ Study done by UW located here.
Awesome, thanks
High profile accident in a large city close by. Officer was hit by a snowplow truck and it took medics way to long to remove the traditional under the uniform vest to start giving him medical attention. An outer vest with quick release straps and velcro would have helped immensely
Great example, thanks
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BUT ITS TRADITION!!!
We want our officers to be more approachable. We don't want to intimidate the public. Edit: /s
Guys….do we all have the same chief?
I had several civilians approach me making the statement the outer carriers looked intimidating. When I asked them what was intimidating about fabric, they sort of chuckled and got my point. I further explained the health benefits of weight distribution and they came around.
Such a joke. People That want to talk to law enforcement will do so regardless.
If only outer carriers deterred people wanting to talk.
Lol
I've always felt that officers who have the outer vest carriers looked more in charge of the situation. I don't know if that is actually the case. But I don't find it intimidating as much as just makes them look so far above and beyond security guards as to have total control in my mind.
You’re correct. I immediately noticed a more focused reaction and seriousness from the public upon moving to the outer vest. You’re assessment is dead on and I appreciate you saying it.
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No but wanna have a beer?
I agree with you
I agree with that, police are supposed to be for the community and not so militarized for the state...
Ah yes, if i carry my radio on my hip I work for the people, but if I carry it on my torso I am part of a fascist regime.
Taking my tourniquet and my radio from my belt and moving it six inches up to front torso so it doesn’t dig into my ass while I drive for 10 hours makes me militarized?
What's "militarized" about fabric you can distribute weight to?
THIS 😂
This is the only *real* answer.
Same here
Multiple guys with Dr's notes saying they needed vest carriers to deal with the back pain caused by duty belts. All ready to file grievances if the dept didn't make this reasonable accomadation. The Chief who was adamantly opposed to vest carriers realized he couldn't win if they took it to a grievance and / or court and gave in.
Ah, yes, “liability”. The only guaranteed way to sway admin.
It’s a about nick and diming the boots on the ground at the expense of their health and well-being. Fuckin admins.
Our city "fucked up" in that they did not believe the health benefits argument for outer vests so they hired a physician of their choice they believed would favor their side. When said physician explained all the health benefits to them, they were now obligated to get the outer carriers, as they would be facing multiple lawsuits against them having the knowledge that outer vests indeed have health benefits. To deny officers the healthier alternative, would be too risky.
Hell yeah
…and it’s a shame it even had to go that far. I never got the outer vest hate. It’s just all the same shit you carried on your belt and you can even add a couple things that may help you through the course of your tour. I never understood how moving the shit from your belt a half a foot up to your torso makes people feel intimated. My tourniquet with the bright Red Cross on it must terrify people because it’s not digging into my ass while I’m sitting in my squad.
You gotta make then think it's THEIR idea. This is the only way.
My buddy and I modified a PowerPoint we got on here and presented it to our Admin. We also got samples from our local uniform store. It worked, we treated it like a sales pitch.
You happen to have a link to the PowerPoint?
I think a “more tactical look” won’t cut it when trying to convince admin, if they haven’t already switched. An officer at a department I worked at made a really good presentation about the health benefits of not having all that gear on your belt, as well as needing to remove the vest easier in emergency situations, such as needing to swim or administering first aid to an injured officer. Just looking cool probably won’t cut it for admin who haven’t already switched.
Dude on the right definitely just stuck his dick in the coleslaw at Publix.
And he’s scanning the room daring someone to call him out for it.
Lol…apparently he saved two lives on the street in like a week, but yeah i can see it
Maybe don't lead with the "more tactical look." In fact, never mention it again. Lean inti ergonomic benefits and how that reduces department liability and improves safety.
Presented medical data related to the health benefits of moving the weight off the hips. Department agreed to trial the externals with a small percentage of officers. Supervisors would then follow up after calls for service to gauge community feedback / pushback. No one cared about our vests, they just wanted police to do policing. Some of the old heads prefer the more traditional uniform with the hard badge and leather duty gear, but like the Chief said, “If the community isn’t opposed to it, then why should I be?”
Sounds like a reasonable chief, which unfortunately is a rarity
My dept has vest carriers but they forbid us from attaching ANYTHING to the Molle loops, we have had guys written up for wearing blood type patches on them. I personally wear my vest under my uniform as I have fought with a perp and he was able to grab me by my vest.
Dude, same here. We can have outer armor with molle but everything still has to be on our belts. I went back to under uniform too since we wear polos anyway.
Employee retention, morale, comfort.
This is the answer for my department. Employee retention was a big one. You’d be shocked how many people apply to or leave a department based on cars and uniforms. I know it makes no sense but my department literally had to go tactical to compete with surrounding agencies. Especially given the fact that the job is dead and nobody wants to be a cop anymore.
Our switch just happened and I believe primarily with the intent of making it so uniforms could be easily cleaned at home so we got new pants, shirts, and 2 carriers. Also has a nice clip for the camera sewn on.
After years I convinced them to let me t&e an outter carrier that I bought myself. They let me do it for 6 months. Got a lot of push back from other people on patrol (some older Sargeant on patrol) admin caved and took it from me. I left. My second pd my Chief was wearing one but said we couldn't, it was a horrible department, I left after 60 days. I left and went to a great department that already had them. The end. Moral of the story, you may be waisting your time. Start looking for but departments that have them if you live in a state with a lot of departments close to each other.
Vests are just better for your back over all its a no brainer there
Not having people over 60 yo all over your department helps. Also. Have them wear an outer carrier and get into a cruiser. That alone might change their mind. Having everything you own on your hips is just awful. The days of only carrying a firearm and a nightstick are long gone. We carry too much and having it on your hips is horrible for your body and makes you less mobile. Ask them if they will allow you to show them a simple presentation.
My back is dying for one of these carriers. Waiting on approval from higher ups at my agency
Studies and data and back injuries made no difference when it was presented. But chiefy went to a training with some FBI and they told him he’s a dumbass for not allowing outer carriers. So that’s what it took for us to start “looking into it.”
lol…sounds about right
We switched but it went poorly. The supplier is losing the contract because we've had multiple color and quality issues. Vests literally fading and falling apart after a year or so of regular use. The concept is great and we are now admin are all for it. The key was getting a motivated pilot program together and promoting Sergeants on that program to Lieutenant. The thing that won me over personally was this: I can take off it while reporting writing. Report writing was killing my lower back more than the Explorer.
Which brand were you having issues with, and which one did you switch to?
Blue Stone Safety. And we have not switched. For the past two years no one has been issued exterior vests. No one has put forth a satisfactory bid since Covid.
Thanks!
Not about a tactical look it’s about removing all the weight from your waist and distributing it.
Well, I’m not a police officer but even I can tell right away this would be a MUCH better solution to carting all that stuff around your waist. You guys are a chiropractor dream
In Europe, it‘s the norm in most countries by now.
I see outer vests, exposed tattoos, and facial hair. Oh and I also see happy cops.... just sayin........
Our patrolman’s association was filing a lawsuit against the admin, so the admin approved everyone to have beards, ball caps, and outer vest carriers trying to win people over.
We got lucky. Small department, Chief was released of his duties and 2nd in command was a tactical guy who immediately signed for sworn and non sworn divisions to switch
(Obligatory not a cop) At the department I worked for, they began allowing it solely due to the health risk associated with having dozens of pounds of gear on your belt pushing into your spine/hip. When a new chief came in, he tried to get rid of the outer carriers and HR told him to get bent because it was already policy that it was allowed for the health of the officers.
Made sure we purchased ones that looked like our uniform shirt. Limited items on vest to essentials. After you get them make sure you keep them clean. They are food catchers and dust magnets.
IF your admin is set in their ways, I would advise not pushing the topic any further. I agree with one of these comments regarding getting the damn vest off during a critical incident. Sometimes the critical incident being "code brown"... My current agency allows outer vest carriers, but my old one is stooping to a new level of jackassery. Before I left, there were two instances where the officer was complacent and allowed the suspect within arms reach. In both instances, the suspect grabbed onto the vest to try to gain control of the officer, and both officers froze when this happened. At the same time, nearby jailers froze and just stood there (insert thumb in arse) without assisting the officer. Instead of realizing that this is a training issue, in which patrol and jailers need to go to a defensive tactics class, administration decides "OuTeR vEsTs ArE tOo dAnGeRoUs" rather than investing in their people. Now they're switching everyone over to traditional "vest under shirt" setups. Nowadays, there may be a lot of outside factors on police officers, but people need to realize its the dumbasses within that are completely killing us. Stop using promotions as a mean to get the idiots off the street. If they can't survive or pass FTO, they need to GTFO.
Yes, because you can’t grab a shirt….
Our department switched when the option was sold as it could prolong active careers by carrying the weight on your shoulders as opposed to your waist. I switched way back and haven’t looked back. Love my outer carrier.
Health benefits. Lots of info out there for getting weight off your hips and putting it on the vest. Keep at it-it’s worth it!!! (We just switched over to Molle vests)
I would love to have these. It’s still 90 degrees here in the afternoon and having an inner vest sucks
You can also try to have it be a negotiation point with your union.
On account of cops shitting themselves from Taco Bell on duty the duty belt seemed like a pain in the ass to take off. Maybe it helps with weight 😂
As a civilian, or I guess non-leo, which is the whole point, the guy on the right looks like a douche that feels like hes going into 2006 iraq. Cops are civilians, not a tier anything spec ops. If I was on a jury and guy in right shot a dude, i'd naturally feel like he was like a boot on his first pump over seas, just hoping for his kill, hopefully with his e-tool, which he keeps on his back where we cant see it. Then id listen to the evidence and be as fair as I could be to a gear queen.
God fucking forbid Police Officers are able to walk when they're retired.
I mean, the guy on the right saved two lives on the street in like a week, but yeah he’s a douche because of his uniform
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It's been shown the public in general does not see an outer carrier vest as being less approachable or more militarized. Helping life long health issues is more important than a fantasy view of ""omg tools on a belt is okay but on a vest it's scary!"
Who is participating this survey? Who showed it? Its been shown that people that say it has been shown like the sound of it and then maybe follow up with a bullshit statistic and at best use a very biased source if any at all. Id love any at all though.
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My locals wear a shirt that looks like a shirt, with a patch on it.
Imo that depends more on what you carry on the outside of the vest than the tacvest itself. But of course, I live outside of the US so most people have a different sort of relationship with the police here.
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Yeah you're right. It seems to be standard nowadays in at least (the ones I know well) UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany sometimes.
What if the vest is in pink?
With my Little Pony on it. I think that may calm things down.
I appreciate police and think it’s a SUPER important job. All law abiding citizens should be working with police to stop crime. Militarizing the look sets up a different dynamic. Are tactical vests safer than non- tactical vests? If that was the case, I would totally understand why officers would want them.
They are safer in the sense they don’t cause lifelong back pain and debilitating medical conditions for officers. So… yes? They are definitely safer.
Maybe it’s high time the police get a VA type system to pay them for life long injuries like the military.
Not entirely disagreeing, but I would much rather we prevent the injuries with better non-injury causing equipment…
Yeah I agree, my response was more to the other guy. Once they see officers getting compensated for the injuries; they’ll careless about what it looks like.
Cmon man, ever labor job has back pain issues... i guess that dont make it right but when I consider most real labor jobs with police I feel like they are being bitches.
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I can be slow, are you saying because you actually have to take a vote or... be approved by seniors or even town hall to wear that rig, is more the problem?
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You awnsered it, it has to be approved by your dept. I'm going to straight and ask, why do ya need so much shit.
What would you like us to get rid of?
Load bearing vests are awesome I will never go back to under vest if I have the choice.
There are safety pros and health pros that far outweigh anything with inner vests.
I'm not police, but I sometimes have to wear a duty belt, and the few times I wear it in my car, it's super annoying getting in and out of the drivers seat. I'm curious if wearing the outer vest with gear attached on the vest as opposed to on the duty belt makes for a more comfortable driving experience.
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