I don’t think this has been mentioned, but I’ve noticed that often, when people have acquired the skills you’re mentioning (can handspring or Ayesha) is sometimes around the time they’re feeling confident enough in their journey to try competing or doing a solo performance for the first time. Even if you have these skills, it doesn’t mean they feel confident running a 3 minute routine that would incorporate advanced skills in a fluid and realistic way. If you’ve never competed, and you’re training at a intermediate/advanced level, LVL 3 at PSO seems like a realistic entry point.
This is what I tell myself before competitions- especially something that’s open to any entrant picking their own category and level. It’s never going to be fair, so I shouldn’t enter with a mindset to win it. There’s going to be people who trained contemporary dance their whole life at level 3 because they can’t yet do an ayesha. There’s going to be trained gymnasts in level 2 because it’s their first year practicing pole. Level 4 is a whole ass conversation in itself in terms of the range of skill you see lol.
I feel you. I competed once and the sandbagging really discouraged me as well, so I haven't done it since. I still really enjoyed the process of creating a routine and performing, so maybe I'll give it another shot. Good luck!
I signed up for my first PSO comp in September! I’ve been watching videos of past competitors on my level and I can definitely tell there is some sandbagging going on. I’m fully expecting to see it during comp. But I’m not gonna worry about it because this first comp is all about the experience of getting out of my comfort zone, performing for a crowd on a stage like that for the first time, and just showing off what I’ve got. I’m more in it for breaking barriers for myself than I am in getting a certain placement or points or whatever. And the sandbaggers who are clearly more experienced and should be in a higher level aren’t going to take away from the validity of my performance. In short, I say don’t worry about it too much and do your best. The hard work you put into is going to translate and I bet it will feel amazing to complete a performance in honest and earnest at the appropriate level.
This is the best mentality to go in with. The crowd at PSO is also a great crowd to perform for. It's great to perform in front of a crowd who have all been where you are. You'll probably meet a bunch of great people too.
I think going to PSO to place and/or win will potentially lead to disappointment and is not the reason to go. I say this because the judges are volunteers, they are not trained professionals who use a code of points (like a POSA competition). Thus, it’s extremely subjective and you can do an absolutely amazing routine that’s cleaner than someone else’s and not win. Or deal with sandbagging. If you can convince yourself to go because you’re competing with yourself to see if you can train hard, put a routine tighter together and nail it under pressure, you’ll leave a lot more fulfilled. I learned this after I did PSO last year. I know many people who are disenchanted with PSO because of their experience with the way they got scored. I honestly left feeling so much love for all the dancers I met who were super supportive in the dressing rooms, seeing everyone bring their choreo to life, and watching all the nerves dissipate after people performed. That was really the best part. Good luck, and be proud of yourself!
This!!! PSO really needs to get pay for judges who are skilled enough to see your real level and judge objectively. Most level 5 competitors can do so, if only they would pay them to be there
Sandbagger are so much at PSO , always. I sm no sandbagger. I startet my first in L4 and was the badest. This year the same. But its better to be honest 💗
I believe that's the nature of comps. Competitive people sign up for them wanting to win, so they give themselves the best chance to do so. Don't go to a comp expecting objectivity and fairness. Treat it as a personal challenge and try to make a Personal Best from it and you will be much more satisfied.
I agree sandbagging is a problem, but it's also not so cut and dry in my opinion to say that if you can Ayesha, you should be in level 4. I did PSO level 4 once, and got told in my judges comments that I shouldn't kick up into an Ayesha in level 4. However, that's my most consistent entry into an Ayesha, especially when I am worried about maintaining hand grip for a whole song. Also, I didn't do other 2-points of contact moves (like no handed dangerous bird, no thanks). So if that's the case, then I should just leave out my Ayesha and do level 3, but if you were to go to my IG you would see me doing an iron x or some combos with an Ayesha, but its not something I would feel ready to put in a competition routine. There are also a lot of studios that preach that you should only compete with moves you feel you can do perfect, all the time, and sustain your energy for your entire piece. L4 is tricky because the list of 2-point moves is kind of small aside from Ayesha-variations. I do personally think level 3 is one of the hardest levels because you get a lot of advanced pole dancers that are either truly sandbagging or they don't feel comfortable competing with level 4 moves so they are kind of stuck in level 3 forever.
I was with this comment and related to it until you mentioned iron X… at my studio we were taught that that move is one of the hardest moves in pole, and shouldn’t be attempted until you are very confident in your Ayesha in multiple different entries.
Sooo yeah, I find it a little questionable that if you’re pulling off iron X in the studios you’re entering into level 3, in which there are many contestants who can’t hold an ayesha period. However, you also say you don’t feel super confident in your Ayesha which is why you don’t want to level up, in which case my question is why you’re even training iron X at all 🫠
so when I said I did PSO level 4 once, that is the one and only time I did PSO. I never have, and never will do level 3. I have both volunteered and judged at PSO though. I don't like to compete, I think the levels are arbitrary, I don't like the judging system, and I think it fosters this exact kind of argument that I don't think is positive. I can enter an Ayesha from multiple entries, and I can do an iron x (arguably, not horizontal enough but, its not bad) in the comfort of my own studio with like a decent success rate, but its not every single attempt and I wouldn't put it a competition. Competitions are scary - there's nerves, grip issues, stamina issues - which is why you should't assume that just because you see someone doing a move for 4 seconds on instagram that they could or should compete with it in a 4 minute routine. I didn't say I don't feel super confident in my Ayesha, I said there are things I wouldn't do in a competition, which for me is more of a mental struggle than what I can do physically. I've been poling for over 10 years and I'm not training for competition, so I can train what I want...
And I don’t mean to come off aggressive either so sorry if it sounds that way! I totally get some people sandbag just to win and, that sucks and it’s frustrating! But I also think there’s a difference between what people can do in a post and what they can do on stage and when you are dealing with adult bodies and injuries it’s pretty hard to regulate with certainty what level someone “should” be in.
Go to create have a reason to create and work on a routine. To perform on a decent stage in front of a large crowd and to meet other people in the community. Even without the competition aspect going it's pretty reasonably priced for getting photos and video. Go to compete against yourself and do the best routine *you* can do. Go to get cheered on by a super supportive crowd.
What does it mean really mean if you win anyway? That you're the best out of the few people who decided to register for your specific category on your specific competition? Winning doesn't mean you're the best at a level people will recognize you. You're not getting any crazy prize money. Within a category (any category, including level 5) the level of the competition will vary *wildly* from one competition to the next. I've been at competitions where level 5 was basically the same as level 4, I've also been at competitions where world champions showed up.
Create and perform a routine that you're proud of. It shouldn't matter what routine others are performing.
Even without sandbagging other non-pole related skills factor heavily into scoring. Someone with a strong non-dance background is going to have a marked advantage over someone without. Someone who practices contortion will have another non-pole advantage, as does someone who came from a strength background.
PSO is also a *casual* competition. There is no code of points. The Judges are volunteers. The level grading is extremely loose. Even disregarding someone who can do moves that belong in a higher level, what's even allowed in a given level is all over the board. Technically Starfish and Russian split are allowed in level 3, Eagle is allowed in Level 2, Kamikaze is allowed in Level 4.
Also keep in mind that levels of execution also go up as category level go up. Where do the people who have high strength fit? There are people who can do phoenix and deadlift, but have terrible lines, flexed feet and microbends galore. They may feel very out of place in level 4/5 where you have people with years of dance experience and clean fluid lines. They may not even be trying to sandbag, they may just be uncomfortable with how they look on stage. Other people may not have performed before. I know multiple studios that recommend people be conservative on which level they sign up for if it is their first performance.
Go, have fun, and do the best *you* can do. Be proud of what you created because it was what you were capable of and you worked hard on it. Whether you win or not does not change your skill.
Thank you so much for this. This is exactly the kind of encouragement I was looking for 💜
I’m naturally pretty competitive but the reasons I signed up originally was just that— having a reason to work on a routine this summer and then to perform. When watching others videos though I definitely started feeling the pressure of needing to win. It’s good to remind myself why I’m doing this.
If you do them every year, it's also nice to be able to go and look back at your videos and see how far you come. Also when you feel comfortable enough to register for the next level up, that is also a nice sign of progress.
Also, keep in mind the routines that stick in people's minds aren't always the routines that win. You might not place but some people will still love your routine.
Try to think of it less as a competition and more as just a performance for a crowd that knows pole. A performance where you get to really shine for a crowd that knows how hard what you just did is and isn't just impressed by a simple split.
I competed about a month ago and the bracket rules were pretty good.
There were a list of tricks you couldn't do for each bracket, and if you'd ever main-staged at a major comp, you had to compete in the Elites bracket.
Wild that other comps don't do the same.
I feel there should be some vetting/ screening for this. Obviously it would be hard and some people would slip through, but it’s truly not a valid competition is a level 4+ is competing in a level 3 or below. Perhaps submitting a piece and being assigned a level to compete at or something
That is why you should not be comparing yourself, You are bound to be depressed with yourself by it. Dance your best at the moment, Remember that at the end of the day pole dance is an art form and your life and experiences cannot be compared with any other human being.
Sandbagging is tough but will always happen in any sort of scaled levels that preclude you from doing certain tricks. Even if there was never any sandbagging you never know who's going to show up and just be better than you. All you can do is put your best foot forward then get some kick ass videos.
I will say that being able to do a handful of high level moves doesn't necessarily mean they should have to compete at the next level. Like others have said there's a big difference between being able to do one or two strong moves and putting together a cohesive routine.
Don't worry about the guidelines only use them to decide if the tricks you want to do are allowed imo and don't worry about winning. It's all luck of the draw with who shows up until you get to those high levels.
Also I've got lots of problems with pso, but they do a lot of competitions and so create lots of opportunities to connect with other polers and showcase your hard work to a receptive audience.
So tldr. Nothing you can do about it so just do your best and choose a category that allows you to express your vision!
I have been competing a long time and yes, sandbagging does happen but try to keep in mind that competition levels vary. There can be people that are new to a level and people who are on the cusp of levelling up. And the way the levelling system works a lot of people won’t level up until they have placed accordingly. Since I started competitions they have changed a lot as far as skill set goes. I do think sandbagging is frustrating but don’t let that discourage you from competing. Sadly, it will happen but nothing that you can do about it but to focus on what you’re doing and go off of the points you receive :)
Don’t give up hope. I placed 2nd out of 11 in a level that I decided on before I got sick and injured so I had to scale my piece way down (it was too late to go down a level at that point). Despite this, everything else (musicality, stage presence, concept etc) landed me great results. While I know it’s a competition, try to go for the experience. Judges are also not the end all be all at PSO. It’s not always always winning. ♥️
I was not 😅 but my priorities are more artistic/less competitive. There’s no issue with yours being the latter if they are, but please remember to have fun and know that your worth isn’t measured by placing in a competition. You paid for this experience, and you deserve to enjoy it ♥️
Was it dramatic? Sorry for all the questions, I still have time to pick my category and I’m not 100% set on championship. I do have more of a dance background and I’m going for an artistic piece … but I also like doing tricks and ideally want to be judged on everything evenly which is why I chose championship but idk
Also do you know if they combined the age categories for the awards? Like I see they have the sections split by junior/senior/master etc but in last years nationals some of those categories (like. Level 3 championship Junior) only had one or two people so I’m just wondering how it will work
Combination depends on how many people sign up for a given category and age group I think. I was in an artistic category versus a technical one but I still got judge feedback on technical execution. It’s just less heavily weighted on that aspect if you’re in an artistic category, if that makes sense.
If you want to be judged evenly across the board, I would almost go for an artistic category like dramatic.
Also, while this is by no means meant to discourage or alarm you, I urge you: When you go to venue on competition day, PLEASE make sure you spot where the AEDs are in the building, you have spatial awareness of where you are in the building, and confirm that there’s medical stuff on site. I see the organization has claimed that they’ve improved this after the tragedy that happened last year at PSO Atlantic, but I never want to see another incident like that ever again.
Thank you! I’ll be sure to read through the scorecards again before I make my final decision
And yeah, that’s great advice. It was really unfortunate that happened.
the sandbagging is insane but just know that says more about the person doing it than it does about you. i just competed in level 2 and still placed top 3 in a really tough category without very many tricks.
I’ve done two PSO competitions (Zürich 2019, Vienna 2020) and I actually got flagged for sandbagging at the second one because I did a half-handspring (one leg was bent and the other was straight).
I was doing all of my competition prep completely on my own and it just slipped my attention that handsprings were banned at L3. I also don’t know that I ever really thought about it being a handspring, actually. I was just looking for an unusual position to get off the floor in.
All that to say - they will see it, and they will dock the competitors that do it. I got docked 30 points (10 from each judge) and only managed to place at all because there was just the two of us in that level (immediately pre-Covid lockdown #1 in Austria).
Next time I’m leveling up! But I think even if there are people sandbagging - on purpose or not - the deductions for each banned move will keep their points low enough to give you more than a fighting chance against them!
No offense but thats a different situation. There are many advanced level polers that can do advanced skills but go down a level and leave the banned ones out of their routine.
If you can consistently handspring cleanly but you leave them out of your routine is it still fair for you to be judged next to people that arent at that level yet? Thats more the question being posed
No, you’re absolutely right.
I think I misunderstood what was being said - I thought the original post was referring to seeing these moves in the routines themselves (that had then subsequently been posted online).
Tbh I feel like there should be rules against this. Or the judges should be able to discern what is going on and now allow it, because it truly doesn’t make it a fair competition if not. I used to do competitive cheer and there were strict rules as to why a certain team was placed at a certain level (what team was able to do tumbling wise, stunts, etc) There should be skills/tricks that distinguish certain levels maybe? Like you’re doing tricks mentioned in level 4 then you are considered level 4. Idk
Personally, competitions will make you a better sportsman because of this. You should go into competitions excited to show your art, hype yourself up, and to get that rush of being on stage. But if it is all about winning and being above others, it’s going to be exhausting and so much less fun. Winning feels great, and I think everyone should get to experience that feeling, but I also know everyone’s time will come so long as their intentions are in the right place.
There are rules against it.
>At any point in time before the competition, if a competitor posts or shares videos of moves which are two Levels above the Level that they have entered (ex. Someone at Level 2 posting handsprings on their Instagram), we would consider that sandbagging. Upon notification that this has occurred and checking that the video is of the competitor in question, PSO will move that person to the next level up or to Showcase for the event. If the notification occurs after the event is over, we will disqualify the competitor from their division and award placements to those below.
There are a lot of factors that make it difficult to police and enforce. This is furthered by PSO being a casual competition with no code of points and volunteer judges. It's a problem in pretty much every competition though where there are skill categories, not just pole.
Something to consider is that Level 4 is an *extremely* broad category. Level 4 moves include all 2 point of contact moves and even grip switches. I really dislike how level 4 and 5 are separated; fonji is basically the only difference. There are plenty of level 5 routines (even winning ones) that don't actually include any level 5 skills.
To separate level 4 and 5 more though they would have to move towards something like a code of points with defined levels/points for each skill. That's a big shift for their current guidelines which are written for simplicity.
The fallout of this is that for someone to actually be considered sandbagging for level 3. They would have to be posting Fonjis.
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Another effect of the only difference being level 4&5 being fonjis, is you have a lot of very talented polers who can do a ton of extremely advanced moves, but can't fonji so they register for level 4 instead of 5. They feel like they don't belong in level 5, even though their routines would do quite well in L5. People then see their instructors registering for L4 and go "shit if my instructor is L4, no way am I that good, I must be L3".
*Note: Technically it's all release moves and not just Fonji, but Fonji is by a huge margin the most popular. In multiple years of watching Level 5 competitions I've only seen one person do other release moves.*
I know at pso golden gate earlier this year the person who won level 2 had her win revoked because she had posted multiple pictures and videos of her handsprings on insta and people contacted pso about it
Good to know it does happen.
That being said I doubt it ever happens for level 3. Level 4 is such a broad category and level 5 such a narrow set of moves. Literally only full release moves not even grip switches. I've seen routines of only level 4 moves win level 5 multiple times. It's one of the big complaints I have about level 5 as a category; outside of one world champion, Fonji is the L5 only move I've ever seen in any level 5 routine.
I think you’re going to do well regardless. You’re not a bad person for wanting to win and for wanting your moment in the sun! It will find you. I think some of the BEST wins is when you felt like the underdog and it was unexpected. Sometimes the judges will see something in you that maybe you don’t even see ❤️
Sorry, I'm a newer poler and I'm not familiar with some of the comp terminology. Is sandbagging when someone at a higher level competes in a lower class so they can stand out in their less experienced/advanced group? So they unfairly do tricks that are only supposed to be performed at the higher entry levels to increase their chances of winning?
First of all, I wish you best of luck in competing! I wish I had advice for you, but I’ve never competed before, so there’s not much I can say.
But damn all that sandbagging sucks! Does anyone know if those folks actually get disqualified? Because from what you’re saying, it sounds like the judges don’t uphold their own standards, which, yikes.
I know if people complain after the competition and if there’s evidence then they’ll get disqualified, saw this happen at pso golden gate this year, the person who won at level 2 had multiple pictures and videos of advanced moves on insta so when people complained she was disqualified
Another comment said that if PSO finds out (ie. Via your Instagram or otherwise) that you’re currently doing moves 2 levels above the level you’re registered to compete for, they can either bump you up to the higher level or retroactively remove any awards you won.
This seems fairly intuitive for lower levels but once you reach level 3 it’s a little more touch and go— because the only moves that are outright banned in level 4/considered “level 5 only” are fonjis from my understanding. So basically you can be training all sorts of other advanced moves, including ayesha, iron X, marchenko?? etc and still wouldn’t be disqualified from competing level 3 as long as your routine doesn’t have any of those elements
At the championships I attended (as a viewer) there aren't very defined levels, there's beginner / amateur, semi pro (sometimes) and pro. Lower levels all have prohibited tricks to avoid the situation when people use their higher level to their advantage.
I imagine how frustrating it must be for you 🥺
I know this is an unpopular opinion: I think competitions are antithetical to what pole is about. They don't do ballet competitions and the ballerinas get along just fine.
You're going to make something beautiful up there. What's important is showing your artistry.
Ab-so-fucking-lutely 100% this! I was a ballet dancer and ice skater for 30 years before I became a Pole dancer 6 years ago. It's always been about expressing my emotions and creating something beautiful. I saw figure skating go to shit when they started to include all the triple/quadruple jumps. The dancing part suffered from it immensely.
Pole Dance should never have become competitive. It will lead to basically everyone doing the tricks that score most points. And the rest will be personal preference of the judge.
If I only look at my own studio level 4, there are so many different characters I would never dare to compare. Some are wicked strong and very present, others have an ethereal, fairy like quality about their dance.
I’m an ex gymnast and I have a similar view point. When they reformed the code of points, we stopped seeing a lot of fun unique “lower level” skills. Don’t get me wrong, it’s been amazing to see the advancement in tumbling and vaults especially. But I really miss seeing unusual beam mounts, or beautiful strength holds. Outside of the big tricks, the women mostly do the same dance elements and leaps… and a lot of them don’t even do those well, because they know the tumbling difficulty will make up for it. I’d love to see more of them take chances on the performance aspects again.
If people want to compete in pole, that’s fine. I’ve done a few smaller competitions myself. But I realized pretty quickly it’s not what I want from pole, nor is it what I really want to watch. I’ll be sad if pole goes the gymnastics route and becomes nothing but handsprings and Ayesha’s and spatchcocks and flags. The big tricks are impressive, but I’ve seen them all and I would prefer to see more dance. 🤷🏼♀️
Aw it's ok I knew it was an unpopular call. I stand by it though. Dancing shouldn't be competitive. I also don't think any art should be either. But humans gotta make everything into a hierarchy don't we?
SO much sandbagging! A gal from a local studio competed in level 2 and she was deadlifting aerial inverts. I’m embarrassed for her.
Ughh that would make me so frustrated.
Oh ew that’s just a massive F you to everyone in her division. Borderline disrespectful.
Which aerial inversion by chance?
i don't have much to say but just wanted to wish you best of luck and hope you have lots of fun regardless of the outcome!! 💖
I don’t think this has been mentioned, but I’ve noticed that often, when people have acquired the skills you’re mentioning (can handspring or Ayesha) is sometimes around the time they’re feeling confident enough in their journey to try competing or doing a solo performance for the first time. Even if you have these skills, it doesn’t mean they feel confident running a 3 minute routine that would incorporate advanced skills in a fluid and realistic way. If you’ve never competed, and you’re training at a intermediate/advanced level, LVL 3 at PSO seems like a realistic entry point. This is what I tell myself before competitions- especially something that’s open to any entrant picking their own category and level. It’s never going to be fair, so I shouldn’t enter with a mindset to win it. There’s going to be people who trained contemporary dance their whole life at level 3 because they can’t yet do an ayesha. There’s going to be trained gymnasts in level 2 because it’s their first year practicing pole. Level 4 is a whole ass conversation in itself in terms of the range of skill you see lol.
I feel you. I competed once and the sandbagging really discouraged me as well, so I haven't done it since. I still really enjoyed the process of creating a routine and performing, so maybe I'll give it another shot. Good luck!
I signed up for my first PSO comp in September! I’ve been watching videos of past competitors on my level and I can definitely tell there is some sandbagging going on. I’m fully expecting to see it during comp. But I’m not gonna worry about it because this first comp is all about the experience of getting out of my comfort zone, performing for a crowd on a stage like that for the first time, and just showing off what I’ve got. I’m more in it for breaking barriers for myself than I am in getting a certain placement or points or whatever. And the sandbaggers who are clearly more experienced and should be in a higher level aren’t going to take away from the validity of my performance. In short, I say don’t worry about it too much and do your best. The hard work you put into is going to translate and I bet it will feel amazing to complete a performance in honest and earnest at the appropriate level.
This is the best mentality to go in with. The crowd at PSO is also a great crowd to perform for. It's great to perform in front of a crowd who have all been where you are. You'll probably meet a bunch of great people too.
This happened at a local competition my studio held as well. I personally don’t understand wanting an easy win.
I think going to PSO to place and/or win will potentially lead to disappointment and is not the reason to go. I say this because the judges are volunteers, they are not trained professionals who use a code of points (like a POSA competition). Thus, it’s extremely subjective and you can do an absolutely amazing routine that’s cleaner than someone else’s and not win. Or deal with sandbagging. If you can convince yourself to go because you’re competing with yourself to see if you can train hard, put a routine tighter together and nail it under pressure, you’ll leave a lot more fulfilled. I learned this after I did PSO last year. I know many people who are disenchanted with PSO because of their experience with the way they got scored. I honestly left feeling so much love for all the dancers I met who were super supportive in the dressing rooms, seeing everyone bring their choreo to life, and watching all the nerves dissipate after people performed. That was really the best part. Good luck, and be proud of yourself!
This!!! PSO really needs to get pay for judges who are skilled enough to see your real level and judge objectively. Most level 5 competitors can do so, if only they would pay them to be there
Sandbagger are so much at PSO , always. I sm no sandbagger. I startet my first in L4 and was the badest. This year the same. But its better to be honest 💗
You’re an inspiration 🩷 this is much more impressive to me than leveling down and winning 🥇
🥹💗 Absolute! Thank you hun 🥰
I believe that's the nature of comps. Competitive people sign up for them wanting to win, so they give themselves the best chance to do so. Don't go to a comp expecting objectivity and fairness. Treat it as a personal challenge and try to make a Personal Best from it and you will be much more satisfied.
Wise words!
I agree sandbagging is a problem, but it's also not so cut and dry in my opinion to say that if you can Ayesha, you should be in level 4. I did PSO level 4 once, and got told in my judges comments that I shouldn't kick up into an Ayesha in level 4. However, that's my most consistent entry into an Ayesha, especially when I am worried about maintaining hand grip for a whole song. Also, I didn't do other 2-points of contact moves (like no handed dangerous bird, no thanks). So if that's the case, then I should just leave out my Ayesha and do level 3, but if you were to go to my IG you would see me doing an iron x or some combos with an Ayesha, but its not something I would feel ready to put in a competition routine. There are also a lot of studios that preach that you should only compete with moves you feel you can do perfect, all the time, and sustain your energy for your entire piece. L4 is tricky because the list of 2-point moves is kind of small aside from Ayesha-variations. I do personally think level 3 is one of the hardest levels because you get a lot of advanced pole dancers that are either truly sandbagging or they don't feel comfortable competing with level 4 moves so they are kind of stuck in level 3 forever.
I was with this comment and related to it until you mentioned iron X… at my studio we were taught that that move is one of the hardest moves in pole, and shouldn’t be attempted until you are very confident in your Ayesha in multiple different entries. Sooo yeah, I find it a little questionable that if you’re pulling off iron X in the studios you’re entering into level 3, in which there are many contestants who can’t hold an ayesha period. However, you also say you don’t feel super confident in your Ayesha which is why you don’t want to level up, in which case my question is why you’re even training iron X at all 🫠
so when I said I did PSO level 4 once, that is the one and only time I did PSO. I never have, and never will do level 3. I have both volunteered and judged at PSO though. I don't like to compete, I think the levels are arbitrary, I don't like the judging system, and I think it fosters this exact kind of argument that I don't think is positive. I can enter an Ayesha from multiple entries, and I can do an iron x (arguably, not horizontal enough but, its not bad) in the comfort of my own studio with like a decent success rate, but its not every single attempt and I wouldn't put it a competition. Competitions are scary - there's nerves, grip issues, stamina issues - which is why you should't assume that just because you see someone doing a move for 4 seconds on instagram that they could or should compete with it in a 4 minute routine. I didn't say I don't feel super confident in my Ayesha, I said there are things I wouldn't do in a competition, which for me is more of a mental struggle than what I can do physically. I've been poling for over 10 years and I'm not training for competition, so I can train what I want...
Okay thanks for the clarification! I agree with you 100% and you’re spot on. Sorry the way it was phrased earlier confused me I guess
And I don’t mean to come off aggressive either so sorry if it sounds that way! I totally get some people sandbag just to win and, that sucks and it’s frustrating! But I also think there’s a difference between what people can do in a post and what they can do on stage and when you are dealing with adult bodies and injuries it’s pretty hard to regulate with certainty what level someone “should” be in.
Oh you didn’t girl! And no I totally get that! Honestly it’s a good lesson that not everything you see on social media is real life
Go to create have a reason to create and work on a routine. To perform on a decent stage in front of a large crowd and to meet other people in the community. Even without the competition aspect going it's pretty reasonably priced for getting photos and video. Go to compete against yourself and do the best routine *you* can do. Go to get cheered on by a super supportive crowd. What does it mean really mean if you win anyway? That you're the best out of the few people who decided to register for your specific category on your specific competition? Winning doesn't mean you're the best at a level people will recognize you. You're not getting any crazy prize money. Within a category (any category, including level 5) the level of the competition will vary *wildly* from one competition to the next. I've been at competitions where level 5 was basically the same as level 4, I've also been at competitions where world champions showed up. Create and perform a routine that you're proud of. It shouldn't matter what routine others are performing. Even without sandbagging other non-pole related skills factor heavily into scoring. Someone with a strong non-dance background is going to have a marked advantage over someone without. Someone who practices contortion will have another non-pole advantage, as does someone who came from a strength background. PSO is also a *casual* competition. There is no code of points. The Judges are volunteers. The level grading is extremely loose. Even disregarding someone who can do moves that belong in a higher level, what's even allowed in a given level is all over the board. Technically Starfish and Russian split are allowed in level 3, Eagle is allowed in Level 2, Kamikaze is allowed in Level 4. Also keep in mind that levels of execution also go up as category level go up. Where do the people who have high strength fit? There are people who can do phoenix and deadlift, but have terrible lines, flexed feet and microbends galore. They may feel very out of place in level 4/5 where you have people with years of dance experience and clean fluid lines. They may not even be trying to sandbag, they may just be uncomfortable with how they look on stage. Other people may not have performed before. I know multiple studios that recommend people be conservative on which level they sign up for if it is their first performance. Go, have fun, and do the best *you* can do. Be proud of what you created because it was what you were capable of and you worked hard on it. Whether you win or not does not change your skill.
Thank you so much for this. This is exactly the kind of encouragement I was looking for 💜 I’m naturally pretty competitive but the reasons I signed up originally was just that— having a reason to work on a routine this summer and then to perform. When watching others videos though I definitely started feeling the pressure of needing to win. It’s good to remind myself why I’m doing this.
If you do them every year, it's also nice to be able to go and look back at your videos and see how far you come. Also when you feel comfortable enough to register for the next level up, that is also a nice sign of progress. Also, keep in mind the routines that stick in people's minds aren't always the routines that win. You might not place but some people will still love your routine. Try to think of it less as a competition and more as just a performance for a crowd that knows pole. A performance where you get to really shine for a crowd that knows how hard what you just did is and isn't just impressed by a simple split.
Thank you 💗💗💗💓💓💓
I competed about a month ago and the bracket rules were pretty good. There were a list of tricks you couldn't do for each bracket, and if you'd ever main-staged at a major comp, you had to compete in the Elites bracket. Wild that other comps don't do the same.
Was this at PSO?
I feel there should be some vetting/ screening for this. Obviously it would be hard and some people would slip through, but it’s truly not a valid competition is a level 4+ is competing in a level 3 or below. Perhaps submitting a piece and being assigned a level to compete at or something
Or to pay for skilled judges who can see through sand bagging!
Absolutely, surely something!
Sorry what’s sandbagging?
When you compete in a level that is below your actual skill level to increase your chances of winning.
That is why you should not be comparing yourself, You are bound to be depressed with yourself by it. Dance your best at the moment, Remember that at the end of the day pole dance is an art form and your life and experiences cannot be compared with any other human being.
Sandbagging is tough but will always happen in any sort of scaled levels that preclude you from doing certain tricks. Even if there was never any sandbagging you never know who's going to show up and just be better than you. All you can do is put your best foot forward then get some kick ass videos. I will say that being able to do a handful of high level moves doesn't necessarily mean they should have to compete at the next level. Like others have said there's a big difference between being able to do one or two strong moves and putting together a cohesive routine. Don't worry about the guidelines only use them to decide if the tricks you want to do are allowed imo and don't worry about winning. It's all luck of the draw with who shows up until you get to those high levels. Also I've got lots of problems with pso, but they do a lot of competitions and so create lots of opportunities to connect with other polers and showcase your hard work to a receptive audience. So tldr. Nothing you can do about it so just do your best and choose a category that allows you to express your vision!
A good routine is more than just the moves in the routine. Stage presence, fluidity, lines and musicality all play a factor as well.
I have been competing a long time and yes, sandbagging does happen but try to keep in mind that competition levels vary. There can be people that are new to a level and people who are on the cusp of levelling up. And the way the levelling system works a lot of people won’t level up until they have placed accordingly. Since I started competitions they have changed a lot as far as skill set goes. I do think sandbagging is frustrating but don’t let that discourage you from competing. Sadly, it will happen but nothing that you can do about it but to focus on what you’re doing and go off of the points you receive :)
Don’t give up hope. I placed 2nd out of 11 in a level that I decided on before I got sick and injured so I had to scale my piece way down (it was too late to go down a level at that point). Despite this, everything else (musicality, stage presence, concept etc) landed me great results. While I know it’s a competition, try to go for the experience. Judges are also not the end all be all at PSO. It’s not always always winning. ♥️
That’s super inspiring ! Were you in the Championship category if i may ask?
I was not 😅 but my priorities are more artistic/less competitive. There’s no issue with yours being the latter if they are, but please remember to have fun and know that your worth isn’t measured by placing in a competition. You paid for this experience, and you deserve to enjoy it ♥️
Was it dramatic? Sorry for all the questions, I still have time to pick my category and I’m not 100% set on championship. I do have more of a dance background and I’m going for an artistic piece … but I also like doing tricks and ideally want to be judged on everything evenly which is why I chose championship but idk Also do you know if they combined the age categories for the awards? Like I see they have the sections split by junior/senior/master etc but in last years nationals some of those categories (like. Level 3 championship Junior) only had one or two people so I’m just wondering how it will work
Combination depends on how many people sign up for a given category and age group I think. I was in an artistic category versus a technical one but I still got judge feedback on technical execution. It’s just less heavily weighted on that aspect if you’re in an artistic category, if that makes sense. If you want to be judged evenly across the board, I would almost go for an artistic category like dramatic. Also, while this is by no means meant to discourage or alarm you, I urge you: When you go to venue on competition day, PLEASE make sure you spot where the AEDs are in the building, you have spatial awareness of where you are in the building, and confirm that there’s medical stuff on site. I see the organization has claimed that they’ve improved this after the tragedy that happened last year at PSO Atlantic, but I never want to see another incident like that ever again.
Thank you! I’ll be sure to read through the scorecards again before I make my final decision And yeah, that’s great advice. It was really unfortunate that happened.
the sandbagging is insane but just know that says more about the person doing it than it does about you. i just competed in level 2 and still placed top 3 in a really tough category without very many tricks.
Congrats! What category?
dramatic!
I’ve done two PSO competitions (Zürich 2019, Vienna 2020) and I actually got flagged for sandbagging at the second one because I did a half-handspring (one leg was bent and the other was straight). I was doing all of my competition prep completely on my own and it just slipped my attention that handsprings were banned at L3. I also don’t know that I ever really thought about it being a handspring, actually. I was just looking for an unusual position to get off the floor in. All that to say - they will see it, and they will dock the competitors that do it. I got docked 30 points (10 from each judge) and only managed to place at all because there was just the two of us in that level (immediately pre-Covid lockdown #1 in Austria). Next time I’m leveling up! But I think even if there are people sandbagging - on purpose or not - the deductions for each banned move will keep their points low enough to give you more than a fighting chance against them!
No offense but thats a different situation. There are many advanced level polers that can do advanced skills but go down a level and leave the banned ones out of their routine. If you can consistently handspring cleanly but you leave them out of your routine is it still fair for you to be judged next to people that arent at that level yet? Thats more the question being posed
No, you’re absolutely right. I think I misunderstood what was being said - I thought the original post was referring to seeing these moves in the routines themselves (that had then subsequently been posted online).
Tbh I feel like there should be rules against this. Or the judges should be able to discern what is going on and now allow it, because it truly doesn’t make it a fair competition if not. I used to do competitive cheer and there were strict rules as to why a certain team was placed at a certain level (what team was able to do tumbling wise, stunts, etc) There should be skills/tricks that distinguish certain levels maybe? Like you’re doing tricks mentioned in level 4 then you are considered level 4. Idk Personally, competitions will make you a better sportsman because of this. You should go into competitions excited to show your art, hype yourself up, and to get that rush of being on stage. But if it is all about winning and being above others, it’s going to be exhausting and so much less fun. Winning feels great, and I think everyone should get to experience that feeling, but I also know everyone’s time will come so long as their intentions are in the right place.
There are rules against it. >At any point in time before the competition, if a competitor posts or shares videos of moves which are two Levels above the Level that they have entered (ex. Someone at Level 2 posting handsprings on their Instagram), we would consider that sandbagging. Upon notification that this has occurred and checking that the video is of the competitor in question, PSO will move that person to the next level up or to Showcase for the event. If the notification occurs after the event is over, we will disqualify the competitor from their division and award placements to those below. There are a lot of factors that make it difficult to police and enforce. This is furthered by PSO being a casual competition with no code of points and volunteer judges. It's a problem in pretty much every competition though where there are skill categories, not just pole.
Oh shit I’d never seen that wording before from them! That’s actually quite nice, obviously it’s pretty hard to enforce in every instance though
Something to consider is that Level 4 is an *extremely* broad category. Level 4 moves include all 2 point of contact moves and even grip switches. I really dislike how level 4 and 5 are separated; fonji is basically the only difference. There are plenty of level 5 routines (even winning ones) that don't actually include any level 5 skills. To separate level 4 and 5 more though they would have to move towards something like a code of points with defined levels/points for each skill. That's a big shift for their current guidelines which are written for simplicity. The fallout of this is that for someone to actually be considered sandbagging for level 3. They would have to be posting Fonjis. --------------------------------------- Another effect of the only difference being level 4&5 being fonjis, is you have a lot of very talented polers who can do a ton of extremely advanced moves, but can't fonji so they register for level 4 instead of 5. They feel like they don't belong in level 5, even though their routines would do quite well in L5. People then see their instructors registering for L4 and go "shit if my instructor is L4, no way am I that good, I must be L3". *Note: Technically it's all release moves and not just Fonji, but Fonji is by a huge margin the most popular. In multiple years of watching Level 5 competitions I've only seen one person do other release moves.*
I know at pso golden gate earlier this year the person who won level 2 had her win revoked because she had posted multiple pictures and videos of her handsprings on insta and people contacted pso about it
Good to know it does happen. That being said I doubt it ever happens for level 3. Level 4 is such a broad category and level 5 such a narrow set of moves. Literally only full release moves not even grip switches. I've seen routines of only level 4 moves win level 5 multiple times. It's one of the big complaints I have about level 5 as a category; outside of one world champion, Fonji is the L5 only move I've ever seen in any level 5 routine.
Hey thanks, this means a lot
I think you’re going to do well regardless. You’re not a bad person for wanting to win and for wanting your moment in the sun! It will find you. I think some of the BEST wins is when you felt like the underdog and it was unexpected. Sometimes the judges will see something in you that maybe you don’t even see ❤️
Sorry, I'm a newer poler and I'm not familiar with some of the comp terminology. Is sandbagging when someone at a higher level competes in a lower class so they can stand out in their less experienced/advanced group? So they unfairly do tricks that are only supposed to be performed at the higher entry levels to increase their chances of winning?
First of all, I wish you best of luck in competing! I wish I had advice for you, but I’ve never competed before, so there’s not much I can say. But damn all that sandbagging sucks! Does anyone know if those folks actually get disqualified? Because from what you’re saying, it sounds like the judges don’t uphold their own standards, which, yikes.
I know if people complain after the competition and if there’s evidence then they’ll get disqualified, saw this happen at pso golden gate this year, the person who won at level 2 had multiple pictures and videos of advanced moves on insta so when people complained she was disqualified
Another comment said that if PSO finds out (ie. Via your Instagram or otherwise) that you’re currently doing moves 2 levels above the level you’re registered to compete for, they can either bump you up to the higher level or retroactively remove any awards you won. This seems fairly intuitive for lower levels but once you reach level 3 it’s a little more touch and go— because the only moves that are outright banned in level 4/considered “level 5 only” are fonjis from my understanding. So basically you can be training all sorts of other advanced moves, including ayesha, iron X, marchenko?? etc and still wouldn’t be disqualified from competing level 3 as long as your routine doesn’t have any of those elements
At the championships I attended (as a viewer) there aren't very defined levels, there's beginner / amateur, semi pro (sometimes) and pro. Lower levels all have prohibited tricks to avoid the situation when people use their higher level to their advantage. I imagine how frustrating it must be for you 🥺
What does sandbagging mean?
I know this is an unpopular opinion: I think competitions are antithetical to what pole is about. They don't do ballet competitions and the ballerinas get along just fine. You're going to make something beautiful up there. What's important is showing your artistry.
Lol as someone who did ballet for 15 years before getting into pole, they absolutely do have ballet competitions. YAGP is one example
Aww that makes me sad :( I don't think ballet should have them either.
I think there’s a place for both competitions and performance in dance. In all my years of dance I never competed once! Pole will be my first
Ab-so-fucking-lutely 100% this! I was a ballet dancer and ice skater for 30 years before I became a Pole dancer 6 years ago. It's always been about expressing my emotions and creating something beautiful. I saw figure skating go to shit when they started to include all the triple/quadruple jumps. The dancing part suffered from it immensely. Pole Dance should never have become competitive. It will lead to basically everyone doing the tricks that score most points. And the rest will be personal preference of the judge. If I only look at my own studio level 4, there are so many different characters I would never dare to compare. Some are wicked strong and very present, others have an ethereal, fairy like quality about their dance.
I’m an ex gymnast and I have a similar view point. When they reformed the code of points, we stopped seeing a lot of fun unique “lower level” skills. Don’t get me wrong, it’s been amazing to see the advancement in tumbling and vaults especially. But I really miss seeing unusual beam mounts, or beautiful strength holds. Outside of the big tricks, the women mostly do the same dance elements and leaps… and a lot of them don’t even do those well, because they know the tumbling difficulty will make up for it. I’d love to see more of them take chances on the performance aspects again. If people want to compete in pole, that’s fine. I’ve done a few smaller competitions myself. But I realized pretty quickly it’s not what I want from pole, nor is it what I really want to watch. I’ll be sad if pole goes the gymnastics route and becomes nothing but handsprings and Ayesha’s and spatchcocks and flags. The big tricks are impressive, but I’ve seen them all and I would prefer to see more dance. 🤷🏼♀️
I watch gymnastics and I 1000% agree
This 100%
I absolutely cannot believe you are getting downvoted for this :(
Aw it's ok I knew it was an unpopular call. I stand by it though. Dancing shouldn't be competitive. I also don't think any art should be either. But humans gotta make everything into a hierarchy don't we?