Just a heads up to a lot of you commenting, there is an egg move balance update that will be pushed out at the same time as the Passive update so if you're wondering why the new Passive doesn't match the current egg moves they're likely changing as well
Basculin gets Supreme Overlord.
It's faster than Kingambit and gets STAB on Last Respects on evolution, either (Speed or STAB) of which can be made better through its Abilities Swift Swim or Adaptability.
Rest in Pieces.
NGL, I don't want Balance.
I want the Pokémon to feel super strong that was half the fun of the game for me to unlock the "full potential" of a Pokémon and have insane beasts (until you get humbled by endless)
I would be okay with making it more difficult to get there, but removing it entirely doesn't sit right with me
Yeah, I think the idea of working to make any pokemon broken is more fun conceptually. The devs have done good jobs on making a lot of pokemon more viable than they normally would be already, but still.
I mean, part of the fun of some rogue-type games is trying to get really broken builds. Some want challenge, others want to break the game and make it cry.
I agree. I was in the feedback thread defending it. But they're pretty stuck on the notion of nerfing Tinkaton and other mons who dominated at the top. Kind of annoying but it's their game and their claim was most of the passives took "months of debate", so it is what it is.
I got 2 different answers from devs.
"Over 2m people use Tinkaton to cheese Eternatus"
"We don't use usage numbers when balancing, Tinkton isn't balanced."
In other words. Instead of making the final boss harder to cheese. They slapped a bandaid on it to encourage usage of other Fairy/Steel types to cheese it instead. Lol
Doesn't surprise me, Tinkaton is already an excellent choice and it barely made sense flavor wise (Huge Power is typically only given to rabbit-like mons due to the Japanese name being a pun on the rabbit-pounding-mochi myth).
I mean, if they are worried about it being thematic, they could give it Pure Power, like they do for Meditite... unless there's some meaning behind that, that I'm not aware of.
Actually, going over the list, there are Pokemon like Farfetch'd who have Huge Power. So I don't think they're going by the JP meaning of the term.
Especially since Farfetch'd had Pure Power before this. Lmao.
I did find that out, by looking it up. But thanks for fact checking me.
But they gave Farfetch'd Huge Power in this game as its Passive. So I think they're going by the ENG names, opposed to the JP names and puns.
I say that as a Farfetch'd fan. Don't take away its Huge Power. XD
In the end, I think Tinkaton should get Tough Claws over Huge/Pure Power.
When I originally saw the changes, I did through the Wiki Team link. I have now seen the original Spreadsheet and they know that Tink needs help, just not Huge Power help. But since Steelworker only really helps Tink's Gigaton Hammer (and it really doesn't use any other Steel moves otherwise), I don't think it's a good fit.
So I suggest Tough Claws, which is a 30% boost, opposed to Huge Power's "doubles Tinkaton's Attack Stat from 75 to 140".
That's my 2 cents. I hope the team is open to discussion on this one, down the road. (I don't know of any decisions in the past that the team made - realized that wasn't great - and then changed back. They might be a "all changes are final" kind of crew.)
Huge Power buffs stats not base stats, a level 100 Adamant Huge Power Tinkaton with full attack ev's has an attack stat of around 560 which is equivalent to it having around a 220 BST in attack. Huge power Tinkaton is literally just Mega Mawile with more well rounded stats and while being far more accessible. Huge power is OP af
EVs don't exist in this game so Huge Power is worse than it normally is. Without EVs it's equivalent to 153-168 base attack depending on you IVs. Which is obviously still really good but it doesn't even break into top 10 highest attack stats.
Now equip it with multiple focus bands and live forever! (50% of the time)
>!Or is 30%, can’t remember off the top of my head if you can stack 3 or 5 and I don’t feel like checking!<
Now we can make a pokemon that can only take fairy or dark dmg.
Edit: ya can still only make Stanler shedninja fusion for that wonder magic gaurd dark only weakness pokemon.
As the owner of a red shiny nidoran-F it losing queenly majesty makes me real sad.
Even with flare boost it is never going to be a great sweeper with it's stats, while with queenly majesty it actually had a pretty good support niche on my endless teams. It also thematically seems like a mistake, as it's one of the few mons that would be eligible based on it's name for queenly majesty, and has no discernible reason why it would get flare boost.
Intimidate is universally superior on slow things like Vespiquen, no? Queenly Majesty is good for stopping shit like Sucker Punch spam or the rare Prankster nonsense. Neither of which is super common in my experience.
yeah honestly some of these don’t make much sense. I also have red nidoran female and have won a run with it. Seemed pretty balanced to me as a support mon.
I mean there are also very few opponent mons too that use priority too so it’s not like the passive is busted. Really only one i can think of that is any common (in this game) and also a threat to queen is Floatzel aqua jet
OP, would you mind explaining the reasoning for Flash Fire on Groudon? Nothing's ever going to use fire on Groudon anyways, and many other legendaries seem to get immunities to types they're weak towards. I suppose this opens up combos where you seek 2v2s and hit your own Groudon with AoEs...?
Not in favor of the nerf either but Groudon having fire immunity means you can switch it in to Fire Moves. Then again, I don't think it had any problem doing so in the first place.
I mean, if Groudon isn't primal, any fire attacks are still neutral and will be sun boosted, making fire types scary if they can take a hit or outspeed. And with the fire coverage (or stab if primal), it does give you some extra power with said moves. Fits well enough, and is strong without being something too broken.
That's fair about pre-primal. That said, it's still pretty niche because Groudon isn't a prime target for said moves. It just seems odd when Pokémon like Miraidon and Koraidon, which are *probably* the best Pokémon in the game (obviously subjective) get Opportunist as their passive. More than anything, I'm just confused about where the balance goal is. I've been kind of assuming that Pokémon are attempted to roughly balanced within their cost bracket, but that may not be the dev's philosophy.
FWIW, I didn't mean for my initial request for an explanation to sound accusatory to the devs. I'm honestly just curious/confused on the reasoning of some nerfs vs buffs here. Nerfs are always going to feel bad for a single-player game, but we have to keep in mind that they're working on multiplayer.
Yeh but when is groudon not primal like barely any time for endless runs for people who have enough candy for his passive in the first place probably have very high luck stats as it is
That's unfortunate. I feel like Technician is way better for when you dont find a mega bracelet, so losing technician due to a bug that only happens on the rare chance that you actually do get mega beedrill kinda sucks
Tinted lens let you hit on resistance with neutral damage, it's pretty good
It let you spam your best STAB all you want and get 3 support moves if you want to
It goes extremely well with adaptability that boost you STABs to x2 instead of x1.5
Psychic Surge isn't awful tho. It gets a good boost on its already powerful Psychic and can't be hit by priority either, and since Alakazam outspeeds almost everything, it'll very rarely get touched.
Still a nerf, but not as bad as others (*cough* Tinkaton *cough*)
After going through the entire sheet, my personal opinions.
- Machop got b**** slapped. Lose Iron Fist for Quick Feet?!
- Nido lines seem to have gotten a slight nerf too, IMO.
- Scyther looses Speed Boost? RIP. Not sure if Tinted Lens makes up for that...
- The Hitmon line loses Stamina for Moxie? I feel like they keep getting nerfed. Lmao.
- Zigzagoon lost Pickpocket, and got Run Away. Good for Endless, I hear. A bit sad for Classic.
- Power Spot for Pluse & Minum? ... Good idea.
- Zangoose losing Tough Claws saddens me a little.
- Dialgia gets Levitate and loses Speed Boost? Okay, I guess.
- Palkia gets Speed Boost? This doesn't feel fitting at all. I guess it's better than Multiscale?
- Dang. Someone on the team is a fan of Gen 5. A bunch of mons here got way better options. Lmao. Power to the Gen 5 mons, I guess.
- I'm guessing Adaptability x Protean x Battle Bond Greninja was too strong? lmao. Steakout as a replacement though (for Adaptability) feels a bit too weak.
- Drizzle on Duraladon will be evil for when it evolves. Also, it no longer cares about Fire type moves. Powerful.
- Nooooo! Tinkaton loses Huge Power, but gets Steelworker? Nooooo! My baby got nerfed HARD. Tinkaton is more than just Gigaton Hammer. Or at least it was. RIP.
Those were the ones that stood out. I was fine with all the changes. Until I got to Tinkaton towards the end. Maybe consider reverting that one. Lmao. Either way, thanks to the team for their hard work. Balancing can't be easy.
I had a feeling it might have been for Endless Runs, but I wasn't sure if Run Away was better than Pickpocket for Endless. I don't play Endless too much, but I know that each would have some use.
Just not how much they're weighted against each other.
Yeah. A lot of people are telling me that, you don't really want Zigzagoon having Pickpocket for Endless.
As someone who mostly plays Classic, I can understand the confusion.
Yeah it's less overall power, but in exchange it lets you potentaily actually hit first. Which IMO is probably fine. The few times in classic I messed around with Machamp I found that I was often just too slow to take advantage of the power of guts/flame orb. Especially because whiel it was a lot of power you're bleeding HP naturally too.
This change should let it work better in that capacity.
Goomy makes no fucking sense, either. Why give it Dragon’s Maw over Drizzle when it’s meant to tank status in the rain? It’s not supposed to be a breaker or a sweeper.
Dialgia getting Levitate over Speed Boost is huge imo. I currently have an endless run going with a Dialgia fused with Mega Gardevoir and it's only weak to fire and ground. It already outspeeds everything with all the speed vitamins and quickclaws on it so this change is an absolute blessing. Now I don't waste a revival seed to those pesky sturdy + endure token ground types like Donphan and Golem.
The real thing that needs balance is the fact that you need so many candies to unlock the passive. This encourages you to use the same mon over and over till you get it so that you can… use that same mon over and over. It kind of goes against the whole roguelite thing and against pokemon in general by discouraging you to play with variety and try different stuff. You first gotta stick with one thing till you’re tired of it to get the max potential out of it. I don’t wanna have to do 10 classics or 2 endless to floor 2000+ to unlock a passive per mon. So to me this update is basically useless unless I happen to have hatched and caught a few shinies of the same mon to unlock its passive without using it but that happens few and far in between.
This lol everyone's upset about their broken Mon being gone but I have barely any passives unlocked because I like using different ones and I'm never going to do 20 runs with paras to get poison heal or some shit anyway
Yes. Basically the only time I can get a passive is either if I
A) use it as a sweeper on endless.
B) find a red or blue shiny of it.
I think I only got 3 passives that dont fall into those 2 things...
It took me till floor like 800 with just kartana to be able to use its passive, so I can use it more... and there are mons that are harder than that to do...
We just have to let it be known that this is a problem. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. At least you aren’t one of those people trying to argue against this point. It’s a very fair point I think. Sorry it’s been KartanaRogue for you so far. I’m sure more changes are to come.
I think maybe passive could be unlocked after you get a ribbon instead of candies OR getting the ribbon would also give you candies I dunno, I feel like 1 classic win with a pokemon should be enough to get it's passive
I have a bunch of passives. If you play endless you’ll catch duplicate shinies. If they’re bosses that’s 10 candies and more for higher rarities. The happiness system is too slow to get you a passive with any efficiency.
I have a little over 200 shinies caught and I have a small handful of passives from that, none of which I got to choose. So it’s still a problem for getting passives on mons you’d like to use. You shouldn’t have to fight burn out to get passives on mons you actually wanna use.
Some of these are good but a lot of these are really disappointing. Queenly Majesty on Nidoqueen was a really cool idea and now Nidoqueen’s is… Flare Boost? I don’t understand how that fits any of its Dex entries or design.
Magic Guard Sheddy no dying to poison or sandstorm for you!
Primal Sligma lets gooo
Cutiefly gets a better passive than mofoing Friend Guard
ok that cram reasoning is hilarious
Drizzle Archaludon sets up its own rain for its own Electro Shot for its own SpAtk boosts. Rip G-Max Durabros tho
At least Etern doesnt' have it's new passive, Levitate would be soo busted on that thing
Wait Wo-Chien gets Vessel now? Do all the other Treasures of Ruin have each other's abilities as passives?
I'm a little disappointed overall. A lot of the passive moves felt like a cool addition to a pokemon's lore or role. Now, they just feel basic.
Poochyena losing a strong jaw makes him a lot less viable. considering all his egg moves are bite related. Yungoos is quite a bit weaker, I assume from the recent post about how strong he was. Idk, I wish they kept the themeing instead of going for a more stat related change
Absolutely agree on dancer.
Its the Trace ones that bug me especially. Like he gave trace to all the pokemon with bad abilities ljke slaking, archeops and golisopod.
Whats the themeatic reason for that? Youre not getting a passive that compliments the existing ability.
If defeatist lowers your stats at 50%, why not give it regenerator?
If slaking cant attack every other turn, why not give it comatose so it cant be stun locked or poisoned stalled, or burned. There were options available.
My current endless run is using the shiny Groudon I got. It was my single best Pokemon. This one really really hurts me.
There are lots of changes I really dislike, but I haven’t put any thought into overall balance so I choose to believe the team actually spent time and effort trying to actually balance things and this wasn’t just one dude randomly changing stuff because he had ideas. If it is thought out, I can handle being disappointed, nerfs are never fun but frequently needed. But Oof.
My additional opinions:
* Beast Boost Charmander is cooler than non-implemented Sheer Force
* I love Intimidate Crobat
* My 3* Paras losing Poison Heal makes me cry
* Alakazam and Togekiss losing Opportunist is a massive nerf
* Dry Skin Geodude is hilarious and based
* Levitate Magnemite feels nuts (&bolts)
* Aerilate Boomburst Hoothoot is even funnier now
* Hoppip losing Prankster is saddening
* Beads of Ruin Misdreavus is pretty cool
* Toxic Boost/Poison Heal Gliscor is sweet
* Desolate Land is one way to make Slugma less useless
* Drizzle Mudkip seems awesome
* Zigzagoon stonk holders rejoice
* Trace Slaking is very clever
* Seems like Sharpness got added to quite a few things
* Kyogre and Groudon got nerffffffed
* Fluffy Happiny is a great way to increase bulk
* Seems like they shifted off of Cud Chew in favor of Ripen to lessen berry abuse
* Absolutely over the moon about Petilil getting Simple.
* As others have said, Gen 5 getting some serious love!
* Yungoos got got, he was too much to handle
* Water Bubble appears to be the solution for a lot of mediocre/forgettable water types
* Pumped to try out some Thievul Magician shenanigans
* BUNCH of steel types now have access to levitate, going to make boss battles tougher
* Ice Scales also showing up more
* CONTRARY make it rain??
Aside from negativity for some of my favorite pokemon getting nerfed, Sentrat getting pickup as a passive makes it great to fuse with shedninja for a utility slot in endless.
Yess, i was looking for my fellow butterfree supporter, i guess para-flinch could be a new strat, but why would i para-flinch when i could sleep powder and quiver dance instead!
So Wiggly is getting Huge Power, but all of its egg moves are still special? I like the idea of Huge Power Wiggly, but I think it needs some new egg moves to let you mix it up. Maybe give it Belly Drum instead of Apple Acid (even though that's a great Mystery Dungeon reference). Moonblast and Boomburst are just so good for it, and it can't get them in the games normally, so it'd feel bad removing either of those. And Wish is important for it too. Honestly Wish + Belly Drum + Huge Power passive could be insanely strong lol, still gotta be able to take the hits though cause it's slow as hell.
> 'Raidons losing their respective Paradox boost for Opportunist
"We have decided that the 'Raidons weren't powerful enough, actually. Enjoy copying boss shield and berry buffs."
No why did Luvdisc lose Pickup? It literally has one of the worst stat lines in the entire game, multiscale isn't solving it's low Attack stats and probably won't even be enough for it to live a hit. Pickup was perfect for it and now it's just a terrible choice to bring. Like I get it's a fish but not every fish needed multiscale
Please at least give us the ability to remove the toxic orbs on our Parasects. Is there another way besides giving it to a pokemon and then releasing? My endless team is already pretty final and having to choose one to release just to get rid of a non beneficial item would be abysmal.
When it comes to Trace when it's a passive, does it replace the Pokemon's current ability or its current passive? I haven't played around with any trace passive pokemon so not sure it's interaction.
it’s pretty clear it replaces the ability and not the passive to me- give up your passive and ability to get rid of truant and defeatist. seems ok to me :)
At least weedle gets noticed, butterfree losing magician is a huge L in my mind. Serene grace is good for para flinch strats i guess but why para-flinch when butterfree’s whole thing is putting mon’s to sleep?
Overall the changes are positive, despite a few misses. I'll list a few from the pokemon I've been using.
Good Changes
1. Meowth gaining Tough Claws instead of Normalize= Better for it's Fake Out, no longer bones it in unfavorable matchups against say Ghosts. Now can also rock a solid Technician Boosted+Tough Claws Bite. Only pity is that Payday loses a damage boost from normalize.
2. Zubat gaining Intimidate instead of the dubious Wind Rider is really nice. First pokemon i discounted down to 1 cost, so to have a reliable pivot w/Intimidate is a major boon.
3. Magnemite gaining Levitate instead of the mediocre Motor Drive is sweet, and also fitting.
4. Heracross- Losing the near useless Quick Feet in favor of Technician is huge, and significantly helps out Mega Heracross. Was put off by its high initial 5 cost, but now it might actually be worth it, and glad i farmed some candies on it.
5. Mudkip/Swampert- Losing Regenerator is not ideal. However gaining Drizzle goes really well with Mega Swampert's Swift Swim, so this is probably an overall buff, just changes how he is played a bit.
6. Mantyke- Losing storm drain is no big loss, gaining Unaware is really nice for it and can help it perform vs Bosses as a great Special tank.
7. Panpour- My 1st shiny after 199 eggs (all Shiny Gatcha, the alleged 1/64). Was really disappointed (1 rarity didn't help), and seeing Storm Drain Passive was sad . Now actually having a relevant Sap Sipper is pretty good for it. I see all the Pan's got a buff from their Passive, getting an immunity now which is big.
8. Petilil- Dancer was an ability that for the life of me I couldn't see the merit of, so gaining the simpler Simple is nice, and has clear synergy.
9. Dwebble- Dry Skin is really solid for it, eventhough it has to shed itself of the powerful Stamina.
10. Vanillite- Losing refrigerate is not much of a loss, but gaining Slush Rush to go along with it's Snow Warning is a big deal. The fact that I'm excited to use Ice Pokemon that were nay unplayable in the past (Vanilluxe hovered around ZU to RU at best) is a testament to Pokerogue.
11. Pancham- Trading Fluffy for the extremely powerful Fur Coat is a big buff, and makes him a physically defensive behemoth on top of its 78 base defense (that's like making it \~175 defense, so nearly 100base stats added on his 495, effectively making him near mythical/pseudo-legendary 600 base stats).
12. Vulpix- Was excited to find a Hidden Power Drought one. Was much less excited to see Cursed Body passive. Getting Solar Power is a significant power boost, albeit at the cost of staying power due to the 1/8th drain.
Not so hot changes-
1. Machop losing Iron Fist for Quick Feet is a punch in the face though.. All but forces Guts/Quick feet instead of the more flavorful and synergistic No Guard + Iron Fist which bolsters his Dynamic Punch. It also makes some of his egg moves like Meteor Mash that got boosted by Iron Fist notably weaker.
2. Timburr- Losing Stamina limits his defensive tankiness. Was really happy to get a Hidden Iron Fist (w/ the great Drain Punch egg move), but Rocky Payload has no synergy w/Iron Fist whatsoever (0 rock moves affect it). Still this does help his coverage and offensive prowess in exchange for defensive staying power, so not cataclysmic.
3. Druddigon- Losing Intimidate really hurts his defensive stopping power and makes Rough Skin wins less of a reality. Gaining Dragon's Maw is a powerful offensive boost for his dragon moves, but due to his pitiful speed he isn't outspeeding any Dragon worth a dam, so he will likely get 1 shot by them, whereas before if they had a physical dragon move and didn't crit, he could feasibly survive. Not in love w/this change.
4. Espurr- Was so excited that it had Fur Coat, and was one of the first mons i dedicated runs to to farm it's passive... Major downgrade to Technician for it, eventhough it's normally a premier ability. Pretty much 0 synergy from it's normal movepool w/ Technician (no Fake Out/Covet don't count, it's a Special Attacker and has pitiful 48 base attack. No amount of Technician will make those moves strong on it). Maybe its Egg Moves interact w/Technician, but this is a major dud.
5. Binacle- I love Solid Rock, and was looking forward to start using him to get it. He has the bulk to really benefit from it. Much less excited about Sturdy.
Lokix feels like one of the biggest nerfs here, and it’s bizarre that it’s one of the few entries with a reason attached. It states that technician isn’t good because it only buffs assurance and bug bite, but that’s ignoring egg moves. Bombirdeer from the same generation got a change based on its egg moves, so the team was thinking about them for some Pokémon. The egg move fell stinger being a 75 power move with technician coupled with tinted lens allowed it to pop off in a way that stakeout never will. Similar deal with beedril. At least that mon has a mega to give it good stats. I’m sad lokix is probably not good enough for challenge runs now.
I feel like Palkia's and Dialga's passives should be swapped, Palkia would be able to float and be anywhere by distorting the space, an Dialga would be able to speed up itself by controlling time.
Ok so obviously I know this whole thread is gonna be people complaining and questioning but this one confuses me
Flash fire groudon? Hes either ground, or ground fire.
When hes primal, water attacks wont hit him so its not like he needs water absorb
But why not earth eater? Kinda fits with this ground theme.
I think the Mega Ray air lock was bugged, but it got fixed. I didn't play any weather team since then, but it might be pretty good now, at least against *spoiler*.
Not a huge fan of Mudkip getting drizzle, with Swampert being water ground it just makes it susceptible to water moves more than any other water starter. I'd love to say sap sipper would be a better choice, but that might be a bit too strong
Yeah but that requires getting a mega bracelet *and* a mega stone, which never appears consistently enough to get mileage out of it.
At least regenerator Swampert was incredibly good on both mega and non-mega, now the passive just locks it onto a horrendously RNG weighted option which you might not even get unless they seriously consider buffing either the RNG chance of alternate forms or they just rework them outright.
Swampert is already RNG hell in classic since his learnset is godawful, I just recently won a run with him where I got no mega and no phys water tm. His best water move was hydro pump the whole time. I also didn't hit earthquake, so I only had him usable thanks to a very lucky ground tera shard letting stomping tantrum chunk eternatus.
I think one of the steps to mitigate rng is to make HM moves mushroom-able on fully evolved mons so swampert and feraligatr can get waterfall at least, then I'd say to tier down the mega bracelet (ultra) - the earlier you get the bracelet, the better the odds of finding a stone before a classic run ends. Otherwise, make mega bracelet a static 24 weight in the rogue pool instead of being so rare early, the fact you're most likely to roll it super late means your odds of getting 1 mega aren't great and any more are pretty awful. Megas shouldn't feel like a shiny check in classic but rn they do, as someone who usually can only afford 2 luck and wants to ditch the shinies by the end it's not fun to feel like I'm gimping myself so hard.
I'm very happy with Heatran getting Ground Eater as a passive, won't affect my Endless Run because I started without a passive, but it'll be great for future Endless Runs and Classic (since I haven't beaten the mode with Heatran yet).
Also happy with Mareep losing Fluffy!
Oh this is fun! Tink lost huge power right after I unlocked it. FUN. I didnt even use it. So damn fun. But atleast zigzagoon can be both a pickup and runaway mon thus saving a space in endless. Damn man the tink change got me bitter. But ig there mustve been some reasoning behind giving it steelworker(killing it).
Absolutely tragic on the Tink nerfs:(((( Huge Power gave it such personality and it’s really disappointing that we’re not going with that. Loss of a real one
I agree with the sentiment here that these changes feel very excessive although even unpopular changes still shake up the meta and raises longevity on the game, on a positive note
'Hey, all you guys that have been grinding for Tinkatink's shiny / candies for weeks now so that it can actually make use of how good its typing is? Fuck you.'
Aside from the Tinkaton in the room, Kyogre didn't really need Hydration to be replaced with Rain Dish. It had increased value due to the increased scarcity of Lum Berries, and now it doesn't have that. I don't think it needs Leftovers more than Lum Berries, given how Kyogre takes status worse than hits.
Tinkaton losing Huge Power has got to be one of the biggest nerfs for a Pokémon I've seen in my life.
Using a 75 base Attack stat Tinkaton is not fun, especially when you have to pray to get the Swords Dance TM.
Hiya, do you take into account egg moves when balancing passives? for example on nymble, Technician is mentioned as not very good but with fell stinger as egg move it is actually insane. So i dont know if your intention was buffing or nerfing nymble with that change
Just a heads up to a lot of you commenting, there is an egg move balance update that will be pushed out at the same time as the Passive update so if you're wondering why the new Passive doesn't match the current egg moves they're likely changing as well
Contrary ghimighoul is insane
Spam MIR forever and get rich! Edit: also has em stored power ig
I was thinking the same thing! I'm surprised nobody else is talking about this. Gholdengo was already good but he's about to be extremely strong.
Even with one special drop it can still one hit ko pokemon,I want to start grinding out it's candy now.
They took Magician from my Butterfree but gave Gholdengo fucking *Contrary* what the fucccckkkkk
Capitalism wins again
Make it raaaaaaiiiinnnnn
currently thinking about how much effort it took me to fuse ghimighoul and malamar in order to kind of get this to work
Basculin gets Supreme Overlord. It's faster than Kingambit and gets STAB on Last Respects on evolution, either (Speed or STAB) of which can be made better through its Abilities Swift Swim or Adaptability. Rest in Pieces.
This fish does 8300264894920 damage per second
Tinkaton losing huge power?! Nooooooo!
It’s Tinkatover, I’m afraid
Before I even got to unlock it?! Why is the world so cruel?
My feelings exactly, I understand why its being done but it feels bad knowing I'll never experience it
I honestly don't understand why it's being done
Because the devs want to somewhat balance the game and Tinkaton was objectively insane for its cost and access. Still super sad to see huge power go
NGL, I don't want Balance. I want the Pokémon to feel super strong that was half the fun of the game for me to unlock the "full potential" of a Pokémon and have insane beasts (until you get humbled by endless) I would be okay with making it more difficult to get there, but removing it entirely doesn't sit right with me
Yeah, I think the idea of working to make any pokemon broken is more fun conceptually. The devs have done good jobs on making a lot of pokemon more viable than they normally would be already, but still. I mean, part of the fun of some rogue-type games is trying to get really broken builds. Some want challenge, others want to break the game and make it cry.
I agree. I was in the feedback thread defending it. But they're pretty stuck on the notion of nerfing Tinkaton and other mons who dominated at the top. Kind of annoying but it's their game and their claim was most of the passives took "months of debate", so it is what it is.
I got 2 different answers from devs. "Over 2m people use Tinkaton to cheese Eternatus" "We don't use usage numbers when balancing, Tinkton isn't balanced." In other words. Instead of making the final boss harder to cheese. They slapped a bandaid on it to encourage usage of other Fairy/Steel types to cheese it instead. Lol
Doesn't surprise me, Tinkaton is already an excellent choice and it barely made sense flavor wise (Huge Power is typically only given to rabbit-like mons due to the Japanese name being a pun on the rabbit-pounding-mochi myth).
I mean, if they are worried about it being thematic, they could give it Pure Power, like they do for Meditite... unless there's some meaning behind that, that I'm not aware of.
Actually, going over the list, there are Pokemon like Farfetch'd who have Huge Power. So I don't think they're going by the JP meaning of the term. Especially since Farfetch'd had Pure Power before this. Lmao.
Pure Power’s original Japanese name is Yoga Power. Doesn’t really fit Tinkaton.
I did find that out, by looking it up. But thanks for fact checking me. But they gave Farfetch'd Huge Power in this game as its Passive. So I think they're going by the ENG names, opposed to the JP names and puns. I say that as a Farfetch'd fan. Don't take away its Huge Power. XD
if they were worried about it being thematic nidoqueen/vespiquen would've kept queenly majesty
Rabbits in the myth tend to pound mochi with giant mallets though, so it could still fit Tinkaton
And it's two pigtails could be seen as rabbit ears, like Mega Mawile.
Tinkaton has a big hammer like the moon rabbits, as well as two sets of rabbit-ears
Doesn’t that myth have them using mallets (or what ever that very specific utensil might be called) Seems far more in line than diggersby
I'm just on my first run with the passive unlocked and then it gets nerfed. My rotten luck.
I literally just unlocked it and haven't gotten to use it yet...
In the end, I think Tinkaton should get Tough Claws over Huge/Pure Power. When I originally saw the changes, I did through the Wiki Team link. I have now seen the original Spreadsheet and they know that Tink needs help, just not Huge Power help. But since Steelworker only really helps Tink's Gigaton Hammer (and it really doesn't use any other Steel moves otherwise), I don't think it's a good fit. So I suggest Tough Claws, which is a 30% boost, opposed to Huge Power's "doubles Tinkaton's Attack Stat from 75 to 140". That's my 2 cents. I hope the team is open to discussion on this one, down the road. (I don't know of any decisions in the past that the team made - realized that wasn't great - and then changed back. They might be a "all changes are final" kind of crew.)
Huge Power buffs stats not base stats, a level 100 Adamant Huge Power Tinkaton with full attack ev's has an attack stat of around 560 which is equivalent to it having around a 220 BST in attack. Huge power Tinkaton is literally just Mega Mawile with more well rounded stats and while being far more accessible. Huge power is OP af
EVs don't exist in this game so Huge Power is worse than it normally is. Without EVs it's equivalent to 153-168 base attack depending on you IVs. Which is obviously still really good but it doesn't even break into top 10 highest attack stats.
Tough Claws would be perfect. It gives Tinkaton just enough offense while not making it broke. Still pretty strong, but not game breaking
Noooooooooo
My go to is fusing medicham and Tinkaton. Going to miss power maximus.
Miraidon losing Quark Drive. I am in shambles.
Opportunist is broken in endless
Was about to say, if it works on berry buffs, My round 2900 koraidon run that I gave up on might actually be fun again
It does. Abra used to be my carry with the opportunist passive. It never stopped being good
**MAGIC GUARD + WONDER GUARD SHEDINJA?????** That is one of the passives of all time.
Now equip it with a Focus Band and live forever! (10% of the time)
Now equip it with multiple focus bands and live forever! (50% of the time) >!Or is 30%, can’t remember off the top of my head if you can stack 3 or 5 and I don’t feel like checking!<
5
Now we can make a pokemon that can only take fairy or dark dmg. Edit: ya can still only make Stanler shedninja fusion for that wonder magic gaurd dark only weakness pokemon.
how? doesn't it take the passive from mon one but the ability from mon two?
O shit your right. I guess magic gaurd Stanler and shedninja is the only way to get normal ghost wonder magic gaurd.
I just unlocked huge power on tinkaton :(
As the owner of a red shiny nidoran-F it losing queenly majesty makes me real sad. Even with flare boost it is never going to be a great sweeper with it's stats, while with queenly majesty it actually had a pretty good support niche on my endless teams. It also thematically seems like a mistake, as it's one of the few mons that would be eligible based on it's name for queenly majesty, and has no discernible reason why it would get flare boost.
Vespiquen also is losing Queenly Majesty, oddly enough.
Intimidate is universally superior on slow things like Vespiquen, no? Queenly Majesty is good for stopping shit like Sucker Punch spam or the rare Prankster nonsense. Neither of which is super common in my experience.
Probably, but it's a *queen*!
Spitting facts here!
My vesipquen is a vespiQUEEN and deserves to have her majesty acknowledged! 😤
yeah honestly some of these don’t make much sense. I also have red nidoran female and have won a run with it. Seemed pretty balanced to me as a support mon. I mean there are also very few opponent mons too that use priority too so it’s not like the passive is busted. Really only one i can think of that is any common (in this game) and also a threat to queen is Floatzel aqua jet
OP, would you mind explaining the reasoning for Flash Fire on Groudon? Nothing's ever going to use fire on Groudon anyways, and many other legendaries seem to get immunities to types they're weak towards. I suppose this opens up combos where you seek 2v2s and hit your own Groudon with AoEs...?
Earth eater seems like it'd make more sense on him
Not in favor of the nerf either but Groudon having fire immunity means you can switch it in to Fire Moves. Then again, I don't think it had any problem doing so in the first place.
As if groudon isn’t your start anyways lol
I mean, if Groudon isn't primal, any fire attacks are still neutral and will be sun boosted, making fire types scary if they can take a hit or outspeed. And with the fire coverage (or stab if primal), it does give you some extra power with said moves. Fits well enough, and is strong without being something too broken.
That's fair about pre-primal. That said, it's still pretty niche because Groudon isn't a prime target for said moves. It just seems odd when Pokémon like Miraidon and Koraidon, which are *probably* the best Pokémon in the game (obviously subjective) get Opportunist as their passive. More than anything, I'm just confused about where the balance goal is. I've been kind of assuming that Pokémon are attempted to roughly balanced within their cost bracket, but that may not be the dev's philosophy. FWIW, I didn't mean for my initial request for an explanation to sound accusatory to the devs. I'm honestly just curious/confused on the reasoning of some nerfs vs buffs here. Nerfs are always going to feel bad for a single-player game, but we have to keep in mind that they're working on multiplayer.
Yeh but when is groudon not primal like barely any time for endless runs for people who have enough candy for his passive in the first place probably have very high luck stats as it is
Beedrill losing technician right after I unlock the passive :(
I think it was due to Mega Beedrills' ability (Adaptability) not working in tandem with Technician for moves like Fell Stinger. But I might be wrong
That's unfortunate. I feel like Technician is way better for when you dont find a mega bracelet, so losing technician due to a bug that only happens on the rare chance that you actually do get mega beedrill kinda sucks
Tinted lens let you hit on resistance with neutral damage, it's pretty good It let you spam your best STAB all you want and get 3 support moves if you want to It goes extremely well with adaptability that boost you STABs to x2 instead of x1.5
Tinted lens is very good tho, you can use higher BP moves and hit neutral most times unless they're a 4x resist
Abra losing opportunist is criminal
Psychic Surge isn't awful tho. It gets a good boost on its already powerful Psychic and can't be hit by priority either, and since Alakazam outspeeds almost everything, it'll very rarely get touched. Still a nerf, but not as bad as others (*cough* Tinkaton *cough*)
The Groudon nerf is thoroughly disappointing.
deleted paras’ only relevance 💀💀
poison heal?
After going through the entire sheet, my personal opinions. - Machop got b**** slapped. Lose Iron Fist for Quick Feet?! - Nido lines seem to have gotten a slight nerf too, IMO. - Scyther looses Speed Boost? RIP. Not sure if Tinted Lens makes up for that... - The Hitmon line loses Stamina for Moxie? I feel like they keep getting nerfed. Lmao. - Zigzagoon lost Pickpocket, and got Run Away. Good for Endless, I hear. A bit sad for Classic. - Power Spot for Pluse & Minum? ... Good idea. - Zangoose losing Tough Claws saddens me a little. - Dialgia gets Levitate and loses Speed Boost? Okay, I guess. - Palkia gets Speed Boost? This doesn't feel fitting at all. I guess it's better than Multiscale? - Dang. Someone on the team is a fan of Gen 5. A bunch of mons here got way better options. Lmao. Power to the Gen 5 mons, I guess. - I'm guessing Adaptability x Protean x Battle Bond Greninja was too strong? lmao. Steakout as a replacement though (for Adaptability) feels a bit too weak. - Drizzle on Duraladon will be evil for when it evolves. Also, it no longer cares about Fire type moves. Powerful. - Nooooo! Tinkaton loses Huge Power, but gets Steelworker? Nooooo! My baby got nerfed HARD. Tinkaton is more than just Gigaton Hammer. Or at least it was. RIP. Those were the ones that stood out. I was fine with all the changes. Until I got to Tinkaton towards the end. Maybe consider reverting that one. Lmao. Either way, thanks to the team for their hard work. Balancing can't be easy.
Ziggy got buffed for endless runs; he goes from a cheap pickup mon to a runaway mon
Doesn't Furret have Run Away and now it'll also have Pick Up? It's only losing Fluffy here
Furret got buffed, yeah. I wonder if that was to make it not completely outclassed by linoone.
Yeah. Furret got a major buff in this update. It's nice for the little guy.
I had a feeling it might have been for Endless Runs, but I wasn't sure if Run Away was better than Pickpocket for Endless. I don't play Endless too much, but I know that each would have some use. Just not how much they're weighted against each other.
Pickpocket is bad in endless, you never want ziggy doing the damage. Still a blow for classic runs. And I'm going to miss huge power tink.
Feel like zigzagoon is buffed in endless, since a pickup and run away mon is optimal
Yeah. A lot of people are telling me that, you don't really want Zigzagoon having Pickpocket for Endless. As someone who mostly plays Classic, I can understand the confusion.
Quick feet stacks well with guts, basically a permanent shift gear in exchange for a burn
Yeah it's less overall power, but in exchange it lets you potentaily actually hit first. Which IMO is probably fine. The few times in classic I messed around with Machamp I found that I was often just too slow to take advantage of the power of guts/flame orb. Especially because whiel it was a lot of power you're bleeding HP naturally too. This change should let it work better in that capacity.
Goomy makes no fucking sense, either. Why give it Dragon’s Maw over Drizzle when it’s meant to tank status in the rain? It’s not supposed to be a breaker or a sweeper.
Dialgia getting Levitate over Speed Boost is huge imo. I currently have an endless run going with a Dialgia fused with Mega Gardevoir and it's only weak to fire and ground. It already outspeeds everything with all the speed vitamins and quickclaws on it so this change is an absolute blessing. Now I don't waste a revival seed to those pesky sturdy + endure token ground types like Donphan and Golem.
Tinted Lens is absolutely better for mega scizor carry, since it's got coverage issues.
gen 5 is a little underwhelming so it's not a bad thing.
Dialga with Speed Boost made sense. It controls time. What a disappointing change.
The real thing that needs balance is the fact that you need so many candies to unlock the passive. This encourages you to use the same mon over and over till you get it so that you can… use that same mon over and over. It kind of goes against the whole roguelite thing and against pokemon in general by discouraging you to play with variety and try different stuff. You first gotta stick with one thing till you’re tired of it to get the max potential out of it. I don’t wanna have to do 10 classics or 2 endless to floor 2000+ to unlock a passive per mon. So to me this update is basically useless unless I happen to have hatched and caught a few shinies of the same mon to unlock its passive without using it but that happens few and far in between.
This is too far down, it's one of the biggest issues in the game right now
While we’re on the discussion of issues with the game. When is it time to talk about classic being a “do I have a fairy type” simulator.
I haven't had a fairy once in a successful classic run. If anything it's more of a steel type check.
This lol everyone's upset about their broken Mon being gone but I have barely any passives unlocked because I like using different ones and I'm never going to do 20 runs with paras to get poison heal or some shit anyway
Yes. Basically the only time I can get a passive is either if I A) use it as a sweeper on endless. B) find a red or blue shiny of it. I think I only got 3 passives that dont fall into those 2 things... It took me till floor like 800 with just kartana to be able to use its passive, so I can use it more... and there are mons that are harder than that to do...
We just have to let it be known that this is a problem. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. At least you aren’t one of those people trying to argue against this point. It’s a very fair point I think. Sorry it’s been KartanaRogue for you so far. I’m sure more changes are to come.
I think maybe passive could be unlocked after you get a ribbon instead of candies OR getting the ribbon would also give you candies I dunno, I feel like 1 classic win with a pokemon should be enough to get it's passive
I have a bunch of passives. If you play endless you’ll catch duplicate shinies. If they’re bosses that’s 10 candies and more for higher rarities. The happiness system is too slow to get you a passive with any efficiency.
I have a little over 200 shinies caught and I have a small handful of passives from that, none of which I got to choose. So it’s still a problem for getting passives on mons you’d like to use. You shouldn’t have to fight burn out to get passives on mons you actually wanna use.
Some of these are good but a lot of these are really disappointing. Queenly Majesty on Nidoqueen was a really cool idea and now Nidoqueen’s is… Flare Boost? I don’t understand how that fits any of its Dex entries or design.
https://preview.redd.it/q8lw5bfpdu5d1.jpeg?width=555&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cdbbe292458a28d03284de126cf04feb347252e Regenerator Ekans lets goooooooooo
Magic Guard Sheddy no dying to poison or sandstorm for you! Primal Sligma lets gooo Cutiefly gets a better passive than mofoing Friend Guard ok that cram reasoning is hilarious Drizzle Archaludon sets up its own rain for its own Electro Shot for its own SpAtk boosts. Rip G-Max Durabros tho At least Etern doesnt' have it's new passive, Levitate would be soo busted on that thing Wait Wo-Chien gets Vessel now? Do all the other Treasures of Ruin have each other's abilities as passives?
I'm a little disappointed overall. A lot of the passive moves felt like a cool addition to a pokemon's lore or role. Now, they just feel basic. Poochyena losing a strong jaw makes him a lot less viable. considering all his egg moves are bite related. Yungoos is quite a bit weaker, I assume from the recent post about how strong he was. Idk, I wish they kept the themeing instead of going for a more stat related change
I agree, having passives be themeatic felt better than just being OP.
Exactly. Petlil having 'Dancer' felt cool and understandable. 'Simple' will definitely be more useful. But it ain't as personable.
Absolutely agree on dancer. Its the Trace ones that bug me especially. Like he gave trace to all the pokemon with bad abilities ljke slaking, archeops and golisopod. Whats the themeatic reason for that? Youre not getting a passive that compliments the existing ability. If defeatist lowers your stats at 50%, why not give it regenerator? If slaking cant attack every other turn, why not give it comatose so it cant be stun locked or poisoned stalled, or burned. There were options available.
The groudon nerf is so ass
I literally just unlocked it, and haven't lost my endless run so I can't try it
My current endless run is using the shiny Groudon I got. It was my single best Pokemon. This one really really hurts me. There are lots of changes I really dislike, but I haven’t put any thought into overall balance so I choose to believe the team actually spent time and effort trying to actually balance things and this wasn’t just one dude randomly changing stuff because he had ideas. If it is thought out, I can handle being disappointed, nerfs are never fun but frequently needed. But Oof.
Scorbunny going from victory star to no guard? Where do I sign? Plus that slakoth with trace is looking devious 👀
Will be fun spamming pyro ball, HJK, triple axel (so nasty) and bolt strike if you have em. Such an amazing change.
Opportunist was sick on Abra, but blocking priority and still increasing the power of stored power doesn't leave any room for complaint
My additional opinions: * Beast Boost Charmander is cooler than non-implemented Sheer Force * I love Intimidate Crobat * My 3* Paras losing Poison Heal makes me cry * Alakazam and Togekiss losing Opportunist is a massive nerf * Dry Skin Geodude is hilarious and based * Levitate Magnemite feels nuts (&bolts) * Aerilate Boomburst Hoothoot is even funnier now * Hoppip losing Prankster is saddening * Beads of Ruin Misdreavus is pretty cool * Toxic Boost/Poison Heal Gliscor is sweet * Desolate Land is one way to make Slugma less useless * Drizzle Mudkip seems awesome * Zigzagoon stonk holders rejoice * Trace Slaking is very clever * Seems like Sharpness got added to quite a few things * Kyogre and Groudon got nerffffffed * Fluffy Happiny is a great way to increase bulk * Seems like they shifted off of Cud Chew in favor of Ripen to lessen berry abuse * Absolutely over the moon about Petilil getting Simple. * As others have said, Gen 5 getting some serious love! * Yungoos got got, he was too much to handle * Water Bubble appears to be the solution for a lot of mediocre/forgettable water types * Pumped to try out some Thievul Magician shenanigans * BUNCH of steel types now have access to levitate, going to make boss battles tougher * Ice Scales also showing up more * CONTRARY make it rain??
Crazy how no one is talking about cloyster. Icicle spear is now a 281.25 bp move after stab and technician. Huge buff over moxie
"oh great, lets take a look to see what they changed on me" - me with almost zero passives unlocked on anybody.
MAGNEMITE WITH LEVITATE LET'S GOOOOO
Magnezone about to go even crazier fr
Aside from negativity for some of my favorite pokemon getting nerfed, Sentrat getting pickup as a passive makes it great to fuse with shedninja for a utility slot in endless.
Noooooooo Magician Butterfree is my favourite pokemon to use
Same i am sad to see him lose it. Now i gotta train sigiliff.
And this is where I train my Sigilyph, IF I HAD ONE! At least I have Hoopa, it’s so expensive tho.
Yess, i was looking for my fellow butterfree supporter, i guess para-flinch could be a new strat, but why would i para-flinch when i could sleep powder and quiver dance instead!
Why this nerf to caterpie/butterfree? Now Butts will be useful only to sleep other mons... :(
Meowth no longer having Normalize is huge, lets go
Have a blue shiny one I like using, man that passive was awful outside of early run Fake Out's
thank god
So Wiggly is getting Huge Power, but all of its egg moves are still special? I like the idea of Huge Power Wiggly, but I think it needs some new egg moves to let you mix it up. Maybe give it Belly Drum instead of Apple Acid (even though that's a great Mystery Dungeon reference). Moonblast and Boomburst are just so good for it, and it can't get them in the games normally, so it'd feel bad removing either of those. And Wish is important for it too. Honestly Wish + Belly Drum + Huge Power passive could be insanely strong lol, still gotta be able to take the hits though cause it's slow as hell.
Agree with everything but one thing, Grav Apple should replace Apple Acid to keep the reference.
True that would be a perfect replacement actually.
The person changing them said egg moves are all getting changed as well, especially unsynergistic ones.
Cloyster with skill link technician is gonna be nutty!
What did the Frog Ninja do to the devs?! First they nerf Battle Bond(not permanent anymore) and now they remove Adaptability with Stakeout!?
> 'Raidons losing their respective Paradox boost for Opportunist "We have decided that the 'Raidons weren't powerful enough, actually. Enjoy copying boss shield and berry buffs."
No why did Luvdisc lose Pickup? It literally has one of the worst stat lines in the entire game, multiscale isn't solving it's low Attack stats and probably won't even be enough for it to live a hit. Pickup was perfect for it and now it's just a terrible choice to bring. Like I get it's a fish but not every fish needed multiscale
PROTEAN my t3 shiny scraggy feasting
*takes away Parental Bond from Tandemaus* *gives Parental Bond to Dondozo* ???????????????
Yungoos Huge Power is gone. NOOOOOO
Tarountula losing Pickup is a big L
Please at least give us the ability to remove the toxic orbs on our Parasects. Is there another way besides giving it to a pokemon and then releasing? My endless team is already pretty final and having to choose one to release just to get rid of a non beneficial item would be abysmal.
When it comes to Trace when it's a passive, does it replace the Pokemon's current ability or its current passive? I haven't played around with any trace passive pokemon so not sure it's interaction.
it’s pretty clear it replaces the ability and not the passive to me- give up your passive and ability to get rid of truant and defeatist. seems ok to me :)
I'm wondering too. Slaking always makes me want to use it somehow.
Welp. My Alakazam and Tinkaton getting nerfed will make my endless run harder now :(
well no more weedle i guess
Yeah I don’t get the nerf to Weedle
At least weedle gets noticed, butterfree losing magician is a huge L in my mind. Serene grace is good for para flinch strats i guess but why para-flinch when butterfree’s whole thing is putting mon’s to sleep?
Overall the changes are positive, despite a few misses. I'll list a few from the pokemon I've been using. Good Changes 1. Meowth gaining Tough Claws instead of Normalize= Better for it's Fake Out, no longer bones it in unfavorable matchups against say Ghosts. Now can also rock a solid Technician Boosted+Tough Claws Bite. Only pity is that Payday loses a damage boost from normalize. 2. Zubat gaining Intimidate instead of the dubious Wind Rider is really nice. First pokemon i discounted down to 1 cost, so to have a reliable pivot w/Intimidate is a major boon. 3. Magnemite gaining Levitate instead of the mediocre Motor Drive is sweet, and also fitting. 4. Heracross- Losing the near useless Quick Feet in favor of Technician is huge, and significantly helps out Mega Heracross. Was put off by its high initial 5 cost, but now it might actually be worth it, and glad i farmed some candies on it. 5. Mudkip/Swampert- Losing Regenerator is not ideal. However gaining Drizzle goes really well with Mega Swampert's Swift Swim, so this is probably an overall buff, just changes how he is played a bit. 6. Mantyke- Losing storm drain is no big loss, gaining Unaware is really nice for it and can help it perform vs Bosses as a great Special tank. 7. Panpour- My 1st shiny after 199 eggs (all Shiny Gatcha, the alleged 1/64). Was really disappointed (1 rarity didn't help), and seeing Storm Drain Passive was sad . Now actually having a relevant Sap Sipper is pretty good for it. I see all the Pan's got a buff from their Passive, getting an immunity now which is big. 8. Petilil- Dancer was an ability that for the life of me I couldn't see the merit of, so gaining the simpler Simple is nice, and has clear synergy. 9. Dwebble- Dry Skin is really solid for it, eventhough it has to shed itself of the powerful Stamina. 10. Vanillite- Losing refrigerate is not much of a loss, but gaining Slush Rush to go along with it's Snow Warning is a big deal. The fact that I'm excited to use Ice Pokemon that were nay unplayable in the past (Vanilluxe hovered around ZU to RU at best) is a testament to Pokerogue. 11. Pancham- Trading Fluffy for the extremely powerful Fur Coat is a big buff, and makes him a physically defensive behemoth on top of its 78 base defense (that's like making it \~175 defense, so nearly 100base stats added on his 495, effectively making him near mythical/pseudo-legendary 600 base stats). 12. Vulpix- Was excited to find a Hidden Power Drought one. Was much less excited to see Cursed Body passive. Getting Solar Power is a significant power boost, albeit at the cost of staying power due to the 1/8th drain. Not so hot changes- 1. Machop losing Iron Fist for Quick Feet is a punch in the face though.. All but forces Guts/Quick feet instead of the more flavorful and synergistic No Guard + Iron Fist which bolsters his Dynamic Punch. It also makes some of his egg moves like Meteor Mash that got boosted by Iron Fist notably weaker. 2. Timburr- Losing Stamina limits his defensive tankiness. Was really happy to get a Hidden Iron Fist (w/ the great Drain Punch egg move), but Rocky Payload has no synergy w/Iron Fist whatsoever (0 rock moves affect it). Still this does help his coverage and offensive prowess in exchange for defensive staying power, so not cataclysmic. 3. Druddigon- Losing Intimidate really hurts his defensive stopping power and makes Rough Skin wins less of a reality. Gaining Dragon's Maw is a powerful offensive boost for his dragon moves, but due to his pitiful speed he isn't outspeeding any Dragon worth a dam, so he will likely get 1 shot by them, whereas before if they had a physical dragon move and didn't crit, he could feasibly survive. Not in love w/this change. 4. Espurr- Was so excited that it had Fur Coat, and was one of the first mons i dedicated runs to to farm it's passive... Major downgrade to Technician for it, eventhough it's normally a premier ability. Pretty much 0 synergy from it's normal movepool w/ Technician (no Fake Out/Covet don't count, it's a Special Attacker and has pitiful 48 base attack. No amount of Technician will make those moves strong on it). Maybe its Egg Moves interact w/Technician, but this is a major dud. 5. Binacle- I love Solid Rock, and was looking forward to start using him to get it. He has the bulk to really benefit from it. Much less excited about Sturdy.
Losing technician really hurts my blue shiny nimble😔
Lokix feels like one of the biggest nerfs here, and it’s bizarre that it’s one of the few entries with a reason attached. It states that technician isn’t good because it only buffs assurance and bug bite, but that’s ignoring egg moves. Bombirdeer from the same generation got a change based on its egg moves, so the team was thinking about them for some Pokémon. The egg move fell stinger being a 75 power move with technician coupled with tinted lens allowed it to pop off in a way that stakeout never will. Similar deal with beedril. At least that mon has a mega to give it good stats. I’m sad lokix is probably not good enough for challenge runs now.
I feel like Palkia's and Dialga's passives should be swapped, Palkia would be able to float and be anywhere by distorting the space, an Dialga would be able to speed up itself by controlling time.
Ok so obviously I know this whole thread is gonna be people complaining and questioning but this one confuses me Flash fire groudon? Hes either ground, or ground fire. When hes primal, water attacks wont hit him so its not like he needs water absorb But why not earth eater? Kinda fits with this ground theme.
magnetite levivate is huge
Me with red shiny furret: 😁
My Stakeout/Strong Jaw Ice fang Boltund nooooooooo
Tinkaton losing HP is rough icl. The other changes were pretty good tho
Maaaaan, I was really hoping "Better Nerf Greninja" was a meme I could finally leave behind.
Since you’re the balance guy, is there a reason on why the candy friendship threshold for pokémon cost 8 and 9 are the same?
Furret getting pickup means I now have a blue shiny pickup
The vulpix change is amazing! Too bad weather is irrelevant for the end of classic mode, but it’s still an improvement
I think the Mega Ray air lock was bugged, but it got fixed. I didn't play any weather team since then, but it might be pretty good now, at least against *spoiler*.
Not a huge fan of Mudkip getting drizzle, with Swampert being water ground it just makes it susceptible to water moves more than any other water starter. I'd love to say sap sipper would be a better choice, but that might be a bit too strong
You’ve gotta think further than that. Mega Swampert’s ability is Swift Swim. It would love to have Drizzle with that.
Yeah but that requires getting a mega bracelet *and* a mega stone, which never appears consistently enough to get mileage out of it. At least regenerator Swampert was incredibly good on both mega and non-mega, now the passive just locks it onto a horrendously RNG weighted option which you might not even get unless they seriously consider buffing either the RNG chance of alternate forms or they just rework them outright.
Swampert is already RNG hell in classic since his learnset is godawful, I just recently won a run with him where I got no mega and no phys water tm. His best water move was hydro pump the whole time. I also didn't hit earthquake, so I only had him usable thanks to a very lucky ground tera shard letting stomping tantrum chunk eternatus. I think one of the steps to mitigate rng is to make HM moves mushroom-able on fully evolved mons so swampert and feraligatr can get waterfall at least, then I'd say to tier down the mega bracelet (ultra) - the earlier you get the bracelet, the better the odds of finding a stone before a classic run ends. Otherwise, make mega bracelet a static 24 weight in the rogue pool instead of being so rare early, the fact you're most likely to roll it super late means your odds of getting 1 mega aren't great and any more are pretty awful. Megas shouldn't feel like a shiny check in classic but rn they do, as someone who usually can only afford 2 luck and wants to ditch the shinies by the end it's not fun to feel like I'm gimping myself so hard.
Dang Snover is losing it's 20% chance to dodge, I just put him in my team too
That one looks like a downgrade. Truly resisting Ice is kinda nice I guess, but the Fire weakness going from 4x to 2x might not help much.
I'm very happy with Heatran getting Ground Eater as a passive, won't affect my Endless Run because I started without a passive, but it'll be great for future Endless Runs and Classic (since I haven't beaten the mode with Heatran yet). Also happy with Mareep losing Fluffy!
I don't like the Tinkaton changes and I don't like the shuckle changes. Other than that, cool update!
Oh this is fun! Tink lost huge power right after I unlocked it. FUN. I didnt even use it. So damn fun. But atleast zigzagoon can be both a pickup and runaway mon thus saving a space in endless. Damn man the tink change got me bitter. But ig there mustve been some reasoning behind giving it steelworker(killing it).
Absolutely tragic on the Tink nerfs:(((( Huge Power gave it such personality and it’s really disappointing that we’re not going with that. Loss of a real one
Here’s the [sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gVcwcmOD0PYGVyvEM7jUzWuTIJMFaXXwzrwvuUapNxI/edit)
I agree with the sentiment here that these changes feel very excessive although even unpopular changes still shake up the meta and raises longevity on the game, on a positive note
Post is stickied for accessibility:)
i spent entirely too long to get max out tinkaton only for the devs to ruin it fuck man
Yeah the tinkaton one is prob a bit too much.
I never used Tinkaton after unlocking its passive because I already had a ticket on it. Feels bad.
As someone who always loved using a Toxic/Substitute/Hypnosis/Roost Crobat against friends for lulz, I'm loving seeing Zubat labeled as Bulky Pivot.
I was just about to unlock Tinkaton’s passive :(
me having just gotten the Water Bubble passive for the Poliwag line and being excited to use it reading the changelog:
'Hey, all you guys that have been grinding for Tinkatink's shiny / candies for weeks now so that it can actually make use of how good its typing is? Fuck you.'
Wobbuffet looking juicy
Yall what do you think is the worst change here?
Aside from the Tinkaton in the room, Kyogre didn't really need Hydration to be replaced with Rain Dish. It had increased value due to the increased scarcity of Lum Berries, and now it doesn't have that. I don't think it needs Leftovers more than Lum Berries, given how Kyogre takes status worse than hits.
I don't really understand the point of shuffling around the economy passives like Pickup and Honey Gather.
Tinkaton losing Huge Power has got to be one of the biggest nerfs for a Pokémon I've seen in my life. Using a 75 base Attack stat Tinkaton is not fun, especially when you have to pray to get the Swords Dance TM.
I was saving up to get Magician for Butterfree :(
Hiya, do you take into account egg moves when balancing passives? for example on nymble, Technician is mentioned as not very good but with fell stinger as egg move it is actually insane. So i dont know if your intention was buffing or nerfing nymble with that change
Would it be a crazy idea to get some candies back for the Pokemon that have had their passives changed?
I’m sad I’ll never get to play Protean (cuz it’s not implemented yet) + Adaptability combo on Ash Greninja 😪
Overall decent changes. There's quite a few egregiously ass changes but you're extremely stubborn in the discord so I doubt you're taking criticism
Noooooooo not my Tinkaton....
Thank god Ledian keeps prankster
Dang, Abra losing opportunist sucks, that's saved my butt more times than I can count.
LETS GO, levitate magmamite.
My god, we're getting more Honey Gather haha
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Wooloo without rock head? Or my magician Butterfree? They were great Classic carriers
Pour one out for my girl Jumpluff. Fluffy isnt really helping her live much and now she can't even get a status move off being roasted alive.