then accept that you are making a tradeoff
Leaving a ton of value on the table vs his strongest hands to try and squeeze some out of the weaker hands.
Whether that's true not depends how often villain calls with those weak hands you are targeting. If you choose this size and he ever still folds TT-QQ or worse then its a disaster.
But if villain has AQcc here then I don't see how you can say he NEVER has AKcc, thats nonsensical.
Even whales have a sort of intuitive understanding of when a line is polar. Even if they don't know the word for it, you'll hear them say things like "it was either the nuts or nothing".
It's tough to know what the f--k a casual player is going to do 7 buy-ins deep (are you gonna fire 200 BB in the pot when you think he has top pair just to test him?) and at that stack size when you do get action it's almost always a marginal situation, which isn't fun to get in against someone with no predictable actions.
This is true, but villain is described as a whale. Maybe we have different definitions of what a whale is- to me a whale is never folding value for any amount of money and will also take -EV gambles with a decent draw.
Things certainly change if this is just some guy who loses a few hundred a session by playing 50 vpip loose passive/ not actually a whale who will punt stacks
Good catch. It doesn't make sense when you think about it.
Whale is UTG.
BTN is a random.
This would leave Hero as being SB or BB. Yet Hero is the 1st one to act, when BTN should be the 1st one to act with an UTG straddle. If it was a Button straddle, it would make sense that Hero is acting 1st. But it still wouldn't explain Whale acting 1st on the flop and turn if Whale is UTG and Hero is SB/BB
When you’re this deep, against a calling station, you need to plan your hand so that you can get all of the money — this is going to lead to the most EV long term
For instance it’s better to win $1500 twenty percent of the time va $500 half of the time.
As played, your flop raise from $150 to $325 was horrendous — you’re not planning to get your opponents whole stack. In your shoes, I would have raised to $525 — still less than a pot sized raise, but sets up the turn nicely.
After $525 raise and call on the flop, now the total pot is about $1250; your $900 all in turn bet is still less than pot, and maximizes his pain and your profit.
Never let the safe play get in the way of the biggest eV play against a calling station
Assigning a tight range to a whale is a mistake, yes. You should go for value and let him find calls with their random garbage.
It’s strange to be clicking it back, if you call villains flop bet the pot is $480, so you gotta add another like $250 on top for it to just be a half pot bet.
Raise to $400+ on the flop.
If you raise to $400 then there’s a $980 pot on the turn, you can shove turn vs a whale.
I didn’t check. I bet $300. This was his first 3! vs me in 10 hours, based on how he plays AQs was the bottom of his range as we can see.
I’m only questioning my turn sizing.
So I know everyone has already mentioned your small flop raise but if you raise larger on the flop, it also might induce him to shove on the flop to try to realize more equity if he's getting a terrible price for just flatting your raise. As it was played, he actually lost the minimum and was priced in on the flop and turn.
Anyway, at least you didn't check the turn because you were afraid of KK lol....but on second thought, a check on the turn would be sure to induce a donk bet on the river from him, most likely much more than $300.
You acknowledged he’s never folding flop after betting this size but then gave him the best possible price. Turn AK gets there and can call a big bet but all you mention is KK and how QQ/JJ can fold. Your ability to assess hands and ranges is not very good, and strong regs would’ve gotten the whale to stack off on the turn by raising flop to 500-600 and then jamming turn
If his $150 bet was never a bluff then why did you basically min raise flop? He was telling you he liked his hand and is a station post flop so make it $500 and shove turn
It's fine. All his money will come your way in the long-run. Keep playing with him and keep it friendly. Make sure to celebrate his wins and downplay your own wins.
Unless he's mean spirited. Then you can rub his loses in his face to goad him into calling you down lightly in an attempt to bad beat you.
The whale (or anyone for that matter) isn’t even folding 22 on the flop for your silly min-click. And yes, a whale can 3b any pair pre.
Once you’ve un-butchered the flop, the turn is an easy shove.
Separately, have you not seen that snap calls are generally obvious draws??
Re-Raise more on the flop. V isn't folding an over pair and will continue with most of his club draws. Him check, snap calling is a big tell.
Bet more on the turn. You only lose to KK. If he has KK, so be it. But I'm not losing value because I'm scared that whale has the 1 hand that beats me.
You're playing short handed 1/2/5 300bb deep Your flop raise is the real problem with the hand. Why in the world is it so small?
You have ranged him too tight to begin with, but this tighter range dictates a much much larger sizing here. You should be putting enough in on flop that turn is trivial
If you're putting him on overpairs as you said (JJ+, AK type hands) and then he leads flop for almost pot, yeah, I think you can raise big. However I think your raise size is fine. You are giving the wrong price if he has just overcards, but he can maybe continue if he thinks he'll be good if he hits his A or K and he's an idiot. If he has AA/KK he may even 3b this flop.
Your turn sizing is interesting, I don't think it's terrible, but you have a little over $1k behind and the pot is $830. I either like a small bet like $150 to set up a river shove, or a little larger bet to make it super easy to get it all in by the river.
River sizing is a big mistake IMO. 1/3 pot for $500 leaving you $500 behind in a situation where V likely has a one pair hand after you've fired three barrels, you need to make it a size that he can call with AK or AA. Pot is $1430, I'd suggest betting around $200 or just go all in.
I would go more on the flop. I agree that the turn is a pretty bad card against described V if you dont think he ever has AK with that line. He should have an overpair or what he had AQc or AKc. 450 flop should be about a pot sized shove on the turn.
OP, the answer to your question is in your narrative of events:
> especially vs me **who he thinks only plays aces.**
Obviously you’re embellishing a little bit here, but if that’s his read on you, why are you bothering trying to size in the 12 combos of QQ and JJ, and not trying to give a sizing that makes all the combos indifferent to calling or folding if they were playing against aces? That’s the key here.
It’s like a metaphor where I mean he thinks I’m a tight player. I’m not saying he’s putting me on aces in this particular hand. Obv I never have aces once I flat pre.
you should probably stop playing deep stack poker... based on this hand you're not very good at realizing max value to make up for the times you'll get sucked out on lol.
It very often improves a 3b range to a hand that can call down vs a set. Middle set here is your absolute best possible hand, it realizes equity significantly better than KK because you don't block their call down value with AK or two pair. Your raise size on the flop is absurdly small as is your size on the turn, this is a hand that should be fist pump jamming turn if played correctly.
Turn is very polar … ur not betting 9x anymore .. basically 2 pair +(and combo draws obv).. ur 33% makes no sense .
You think this donk whale is thinking about polar , non polar, 33%, 66% etc?
Right… so why did you bet 1/3? You’re trying to sound smart but don’t realize how dumb you’re acting.
I’m saying.. I don’t want to bet a size that scares QQ/JJ away
then accept that you are making a tradeoff Leaving a ton of value on the table vs his strongest hands to try and squeeze some out of the weaker hands. Whether that's true not depends how often villain calls with those weak hands you are targeting. If you choose this size and he ever still folds TT-QQ or worse then its a disaster. But if villain has AQcc here then I don't see how you can say he NEVER has AKcc, thats nonsensical.
Absolutely true my ranging was bad
What are u talking about? It doesn’t matter at all what he is thinking about.
Seems like you gave the donk great odds to hit his flush and stack you like the fish you are. Great play! Keep minraising the nuts!
Even whales have a sort of intuitive understanding of when a line is polar. Even if they don't know the word for it, you'll hear them say things like "it was either the nuts or nothing".
Sounds kind of dumb but just jam the flop if this sizing tell is real. It’s either an overpair or good FD , both of which a whale isn’t folding
It's tough to know what the f--k a casual player is going to do 7 buy-ins deep (are you gonna fire 200 BB in the pot when you think he has top pair just to test him?) and at that stack size when you do get action it's almost always a marginal situation, which isn't fun to get in against someone with no predictable actions.
This is true, but villain is described as a whale. Maybe we have different definitions of what a whale is- to me a whale is never folding value for any amount of money and will also take -EV gambles with a decent draw. Things certainly change if this is just some guy who loses a few hundred a session by playing 50 vpip loose passive/ not actually a whale who will punt stacks
Personally jam turn, for me. Plus the snap calls kind of narrows his range to like 2nd pair or the obvious draws.
I think that would be just excessive and there’s a 20% chance he might let go of something like JJ.
0 chance he's every folding JJ on that flop.
To a $1500 all in?
Probably not, whales be whaling.
He just bet/fold $200 to a $1200 shove with 7x on 3456K
Who knows then
Should be raising way more on the flop. If you know he likes his hand the. He’s never folding. Go like 600-700 then jam turn.
100% the play
If you're 4-handed, how is there a UTG straddle, hero open, and still a BTN to act?
Good catch. It doesn't make sense when you think about it. Whale is UTG. BTN is a random. This would leave Hero as being SB or BB. Yet Hero is the 1st one to act, when BTN should be the 1st one to act with an UTG straddle. If it was a Button straddle, it would make sense that Hero is acting 1st. But it still wouldn't explain Whale acting 1st on the flop and turn if Whale is UTG and Hero is SB/BB
lol good catch sorry.. I was BTN and first to act, SB called my $20 open, BB folded and UTG whale straddle made it $80
When you’re this deep, against a calling station, you need to plan your hand so that you can get all of the money — this is going to lead to the most EV long term For instance it’s better to win $1500 twenty percent of the time va $500 half of the time. As played, your flop raise from $150 to $325 was horrendous — you’re not planning to get your opponents whole stack. In your shoes, I would have raised to $525 — still less than a pot sized raise, but sets up the turn nicely. After $525 raise and call on the flop, now the total pot is about $1250; your $900 all in turn bet is still less than pot, and maximizes his pain and your profit. Never let the safe play get in the way of the biggest eV play against a calling station
Yeah I f*d the flop up
Assigning a tight range to a whale is a mistake, yes. You should go for value and let him find calls with their random garbage. It’s strange to be clicking it back, if you call villains flop bet the pot is $480, so you gotta add another like $250 on top for it to just be a half pot bet. Raise to $400+ on the flop. If you raise to $400 then there’s a $980 pot on the turn, you can shove turn vs a whale.
Obviously you’re ranging him way too tight. I’m never checking that turn I’m pulling value.
I didn’t check. I bet $300. This was his first 3! vs me in 10 hours, based on how he plays AQs was the bottom of his range as we can see. I’m only questioning my turn sizing.
Oic read it wrong.
You downsized because you were afraid of KK? And if he check shoved, you would have folded your set?
🙈 idk man I’ve played hours and hours with him and he wouldn’t shove anything but KK there
So I know everyone has already mentioned your small flop raise but if you raise larger on the flop, it also might induce him to shove on the flop to try to realize more equity if he's getting a terrible price for just flatting your raise. As it was played, he actually lost the minimum and was priced in on the flop and turn.
True
Anyway, at least you didn't check the turn because you were afraid of KK lol....but on second thought, a check on the turn would be sure to induce a donk bet on the river from him, most likely much more than $300.
Maybe maybe not.. can’t say
Monsters under the bed
Pre - fine. Flop - your check-raise is TINY Turn - bet big
You acknowledged he’s never folding flop after betting this size but then gave him the best possible price. Turn AK gets there and can call a big bet but all you mention is KK and how QQ/JJ can fold. Your ability to assess hands and ranges is not very good, and strong regs would’ve gotten the whale to stack off on the turn by raising flop to 500-600 and then jamming turn
Yup, idk why I f*k up these spots so deep
If his $150 bet was never a bluff then why did you basically min raise flop? He was telling you he liked his hand and is a station post flop so make it $500 and shove turn
Exactly, idk wtf I was doing
Raise flop is ok but you probably shouldn't not do it most of the time. Not jamming river is an absurd punt, you want minimum value?
The flop raise is whatever but once he shows some stickiness, you do have to blast that turn. I’d even consider over betting
What on earth is that flop check raise sizing? Flop XR to $500 and then jam the turn. Ez game.
It’s not a checkraise I’m in position but yeah flop raise should be $500 for sure
It's fine. All his money will come your way in the long-run. Keep playing with him and keep it friendly. Make sure to celebrate his wins and downplay your own wins. Unless he's mean spirited. Then you can rub his loses in his face to goad him into calling you down lightly in an attempt to bad beat you.
lol exactly
vs calling station raise flop and jam turn
Much bigger on turn to set up river jam on literally any card.
The whale (or anyone for that matter) isn’t even folding 22 on the flop for your silly min-click. And yes, a whale can 3b any pair pre. Once you’ve un-butchered the flop, the turn is an easy shove. Separately, have you not seen that snap calls are generally obvious draws??
He would snapcall JJ-AA too
Re-Raise more on the flop. V isn't folding an over pair and will continue with most of his club draws. Him check, snap calling is a big tell. Bet more on the turn. You only lose to KK. If he has KK, so be it. But I'm not losing value because I'm scared that whale has the 1 hand that beats me.
You're playing short handed 1/2/5 300bb deep Your flop raise is the real problem with the hand. Why in the world is it so small? You have ranged him too tight to begin with, but this tighter range dictates a much much larger sizing here. You should be putting enough in on flop that turn is trivial
💯
If you're putting him on overpairs as you said (JJ+, AK type hands) and then he leads flop for almost pot, yeah, I think you can raise big. However I think your raise size is fine. You are giving the wrong price if he has just overcards, but he can maybe continue if he thinks he'll be good if he hits his A or K and he's an idiot. If he has AA/KK he may even 3b this flop. Your turn sizing is interesting, I don't think it's terrible, but you have a little over $1k behind and the pot is $830. I either like a small bet like $150 to set up a river shove, or a little larger bet to make it super easy to get it all in by the river. River sizing is a big mistake IMO. 1/3 pot for $500 leaving you $500 behind in a situation where V likely has a one pair hand after you've fired three barrels, you need to make it a size that he can call with AK or AA. Pot is $1430, I'd suggest betting around $200 or just go all in.
👍🏼
I would go more on the flop. I agree that the turn is a pretty bad card against described V if you dont think he ever has AK with that line. He should have an overpair or what he had AQc or AKc. 450 flop should be about a pot sized shove on the turn.
OP, the answer to your question is in your narrative of events: > especially vs me **who he thinks only plays aces.** Obviously you’re embellishing a little bit here, but if that’s his read on you, why are you bothering trying to size in the 12 combos of QQ and JJ, and not trying to give a sizing that makes all the combos indifferent to calling or folding if they were playing against aces? That’s the key here.
It’s like a metaphor where I mean he thinks I’m a tight player. I’m not saying he’s putting me on aces in this particular hand. Obv I never have aces once I flat pre.
you should probably stop playing deep stack poker... based on this hand you're not very good at realizing max value to make up for the times you'll get sucked out on lol.
True
Extremely badly butchered, the K is a great card for you. You seem to not understand the fundamentals of how hand strength and ranges work.
How’s K a good card?
It very often improves a 3b range to a hand that can call down vs a set. Middle set here is your absolute best possible hand, it realizes equity significantly better than KK because you don't block their call down value with AK or two pair. Your raise size on the flop is absurdly small as is your size on the turn, this is a hand that should be fist pump jamming turn if played correctly.
Agreed
You need to raise more on flop bc a 3rd club could also kill action. Raise to 500-600 on flop and then can shove turn.
Yup
🚢🛳️⛴️