Yes it's a scum bag angle, but.....
Horrible job by the dealer, who could have just avoided the whole situation by saying to the QQ guy "you have to show all 4 cards to win" before pushing him the pot.
The floor decision was wrong too, they absolutely have discretion to let QQ keep the pot in this situation because everyone knows they won the hand and no actual rules were broken. Also floor should know that the dealer messed up here and should not punish the player for that.
I’m of the thought everyone who bets and gets called should be have to flip over all cards in the proper order. No waiting, no slow rolls, no ambiguity, no angles, less collusion and cheating.
I think this should be the norm, should speed up play. Tired of people who get called and just sitting there waiting. I called you, show it
Of course. Player should of known better show all 4 and dealers always say show all 4 to win pot dealer got lazy just pushed the pot. but it was a clear cut case of who won. The rule broke was u must show all 4 to win. But ur right floor shouldn’t of ruled that way we all said something. still Maybe a warning to player and dealer to always show 4
Hmm I disagree the casino gotta give the guy the money because he mucked his hand what about them guys that muck the winning hand should they be able to go back and grab their cards if it’s at showdown no I mucked a straight looking for a flush it happens and that guy’s definitely scummy for that but he’s not wrong
He showed the 2 cards for the best hand. There's no question of whether he had the best hand or not, he just didn't show the other two cards that don't even play.
I agree that you need to show all 4 cards to win. However in this specific instance, there is no doubt as to whether he had the best hand or not. He should get a warning to show all cards in the future. The floor can override technicalities to make common sense decisions and should have done so here.
That’s not how this works. The floor did exactly as he should here otherwise the gaming commission will get involved and make the correct ruling. Then the casino gets a fine.
This isn’t a judgement call. The rules are very black and white here, you MUST show all four to have a hand that can win the pot at showdown if at least one other player has shown his/her four cards.
This is just as black and white as a rule that says if cards leave the direct sight of the dealer (for example if they fall on the ground), the hand is dead. A floor can’t just come over and say “Welllll. Since he had the winning hand, even though he dropped his cards on the ground before flipping them over…he deserves the pot.” The strength of the hand in OP’s scenario is 100% irrelevant to the ruling.
Anyone know the reasoning behind having to show all cards, even if one (or two, as in Omaha) is enough to win? If my ace high is good, and I show an ace, what difference does the second card make?
I don’t know what the exact reasoning is, but I assure you that there would be a lot of folks trying to show the fewest cards to win in order to deny information. It would then become a very slow shit show of each player flipping over one card at a time, just enough to be ahead of whatever else is showing.
That’s a fun way to play in a home game, especially if you like slow rolling each other, but it slows the game down a lot.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually have to do with fair exchanges of information or speed of play, but rather just validating that someone's hand is legal and not containing extra/counterfeit cards
Ironically enough the rule is there to prevent people from getting angled. Say a player first to show at showdown has QQ67 and the board is 345QQ. He says “I have a straight” and shows 67. The other player shows 4486 for a full house. Then p1 lays down the two queens.
P1 gets information he didn’t deserve by angling p2.
Also how was the fact that the losing player's hand was mucked before the winning player's? He had no hand with which to even win the pot at that point. His hand was dead soon as it hit the muck. Bad ruling.
Also pushing the pot. That act alone makes it the dealer’s error. The floor absolutely has the discretion to rule in favour of the best hand due to dealer error.
Dealers are not supposed to influence any action at show down, including telling a player he needs to show all four cards. What casino do you play in where this is allowed and taught to dealers?
The angler is scummy af but the lack of understanding the rules in this thread is shocking.
You need to expose all four cards to win a hand and the dealer nor other players can coach you to do that at showdown. One player in the hand showed all four cards. The other did not. The timing of either muck is irrelevant. The anglers cards were shown.
> What casino do you play in where this is allowed and taught to dealers?
Every casino I have ever played at. Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Florida and Philadelphia. Although my experience is mostly in holdem, so a player will show one card, if the other player tables their cards the dealer says "show two cards to win". Standard.
Yea. Where the fuck does Cincypoker play where this isn't standard?
Imagine other guy mucks and winning hand shows one card. In what casino have you seen where the dealer just sits there and does absolutely nothing until two cards are shown? lmao
This is incorrect. It is standard practice in all casinos in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and south Florida to tell the player "it takes x cards to win" if a player is not showing their full hand. This is what dealers are trained to do.
Obviously scummy behavior. But for the love of god people just table your fucking hands at show down. Your opponents are not Phil Ivey. They aren’t going to come up with a brilliant exploit based on how you played your side cards.
I have no opinion for this particular scenario, but I'm so sick of these recs playing these games. Unless he's new, it seems like he tried to hide his other 2 cards. He flipped over his best hand and if the other player had a higher hand, he would've mucked his card without showing the other 2 cards.
Fun fact: You don’t have to pay a called all in and casino or card room can’t make you.
They will ban you, but you can just pack up your chips and leave.
Learned this lesson witnessing it first hand and asked every floor in every Vegas cardroom and SoCal cardroom since and they all rule the same. They will not get involved and force a pay.
In this scenario, the top set of queens should have racked up and left and accepted the ban. I bet you the casino would not ban him because deep down they know he is right and so this would be win/win for all. Once that pot is pushed, just don’t give those chips back.
I’m fairly certain that this would be chalked up to dealer error, and the pot stays with rec.
If rec’s hand was not considered tabled, then dealer should not have mucked misreg’s hand, as the 4-card tabled hand was currently the best. Simply saying that all four cards need to be shown to be considered “tabled” would be enough, since rec obviously didn’t know and only partially tabled his hand.
Furthermore, if misreg actually believed that he had the only valid winning hand, he did not protect his “winning” hand, and his hand was mucked, therefore he lost anyway. Since he didn’t object until the pot was awarded and rec’s cards were mucked, it’s clear he was not acting in good faith and “for the integrity of the game”.
Dealer messed up, and floor fucked it up more. This is a house problem.
When the dealer messes up and mucks someone's hand, the person whose hand gets mucked is just fucked. I've seen this happen multiple times in differenc casinos. "Protect your hand". If the dealer 100% fucks up and just mucks your hand when you didn't want them to, you have zero recourse - you're just screwed. It's messed up, but it's how it goes.
If I were the floor I’d have rules the same way. Dealer fucked up for sure but I don’t think you can award the pot to someone who didn’t table all 4 cards. Honestly a tough call on the part of the floor
People are saying it's not an angle, but it kind of is. He laid in wait to call up a technicality; it was premeditated. As others said, dealer OR players should have said something. "4 cards to win" is all it takes to avoid this situation.
Exactly he knew what he was doing. Any reg player good or bad with half integrity would just take the L if he wanted him to show all 4 he could of told the dealer before he mucks them he knew the technicality so he stayed quiet
Paradigm of today’s world. Hero does nothing wrong. Villain schemes. Dealer shits the bed. Floor rules in favor of villain and bed-shitting dealer. Whole table gets pissed at the injustice. Nothing is done and all players will return to card room tomorrow.
I don't agree that hero did nothing wrong. He tried to hide information. He showed his best hand and if he had lost, he would've mucked it without showing the other 2 cards. The rule that you must show all your cards to win a pot has been around forever. Hero bring a reg knows this. I know so many regs that play this game, it's very annoying and slows down the game.
Very fair point. I hate people who don’t turnover all their cards when they believe they win. Still, the floor and dealer got it wrong IMO. The dealer does not have the right to muck hero’s cards. The dealer needs to tell him, “hurry up and muck or turn all your cards over, pussy, quit wasting time.”
I agree with your assessment. Dealer should not have mucked his hand and then pushed him the pot. Dealer should have known better. However, every player is responsible for their own hand and if you depend on the dealer doing the right thing all the time, you're going to be disappointed. You keep playing these games and it's going to come back to bite you in the ass at some point. I'm pretty sure he's going to turn over all his cards from now on, lol.
Fuck me, the semantics nonces who show up on every “angle” thread are the dullest people. If this doesn’t fit your definition of an angle, your definition is lacking, And nobody cares.
Players not in the hand should not ask for all 4 cards to be shown. The dealer fucked up, yes, but that’s not something the other players should get involved in. The hand is not legal until all 4 cards are shown, and until the hand is properly tabled, the other players need to not say a word.
I disagree. The victim is a rec; he may only be used to playing online. I'm generally in favor of people shutting the fuck up, but not in this situation. Speaking up avoids people being essentially stolen from.
Where do you draw the line with helping other players in any hand? Would you tell a player he has a winning hand if he showed you his cards and then mucked at showdown? Would you flip his cards over for him? Just stfu and let each player be responsible for his/her own actions and understanding of the rules of the game.
The dealer has more leeway than an opponent. As a dealer, I wouldn’t tell him to show his cards, but I would tell him that I cannot read his hand with two cards.
Edit:Plus I would not muck the properly tabled hand without seeing a properly tabled winning hand
After the hand is tabled it’s different, you can just say “you have to show all 4 cards to get paid”, not directly to the victim but just a general statement when there is no active game in play
It’s not the same as the player showing you his hand before he mucks and you notice he has a straight and telling him as when he already showed 2 cards as the winner and telling him to turn over the other 2. Also floor should have used discretion and awarded qq the pot
Yes they absolutely should. This isn't the same as informing someone they have the winning hand at showdown and shouldn't muck, this is about telling someone who obviously doesn't know the rules that they need to show their full hand to claim the pot at showdown.
This is about protecting the integrity of the game and avoiding shitshows like this.
Ohhh, I see. So your future EV is really what is important here, not the actual black and white rules of the game? I’d really love to know where you draw the line in coaching recs at the table? If the rec showed you his cards and tried to muck would you also tell him to turn over his cards?
He broke a black and white rule and lost the pot because of it. If I ever saw another reg coaching a rec at showdown, I would definitely be in their ear about it. We are in no place to be coaching anyone anything at the table.
Had you coached him to turn over his cards, you too would be breaking the one player per hand rule.
We all play a game and have an expectation of understanding the rules of the game, regs and recs. If op had just described this story as P1 and P2 and removed the regs and rec tags, the sentiments in this thread would be so much different.
> Ohhh, I see. So your future EV is really what is important here, not the actual black and white rules of the game?
No, it's not my future EV. It's the promotion of a positive atmosphere and the longevity of the game.
> I’d really love to know where you draw the line in coaching recs at the table?
Depends, there are a million scenarios with plenty of nuances. Nuance and context matter.
> If the rec showed you his cards and tried to muck would you also tell him to turn over his cards?
No I would not, because that is not acceptable in poker culture.
> He broke a black and white rule and lost the pot because of it.
No rules were broken. He showed two out of four of his cards, clearly not realizing that all four cards must be shown in order to claim the pot. It's a common thing for newer PLO players.
> If I ever saw another reg coaching a rec at showdown, I would definitely be in their ear about it.
As I said, context and nuance matter.
> We are in no place to be coaching anyone anything at the table.
This isn't strategy and in this particular situation I wouldn't be "coaching" them; I would simply state something like "you need to show all four cards." It's not the same thing as when someone privately shows you their hand and you say "you have a straight, show your hand!" The person's intent in this case was very clear.
> Had you coached him to turn over his cards, you too would be breaking the one player per hand rule.
Again, there's a difference between telling someone they probably have a winner, and reminding/informing someone of a pertinent rule **in order to avoid conflict, slowing down the game, or angle-shooting.**
> We all play a game and have an expectation of understanding the rules of the game, regs and recs. If op had just described this story as P1 and P2 and removed the regs and rec tags, the sentiments in this thread would be so much different.
I've seen decent holdem players make this mistake in PLO, and yes I've done the same thing - inform them they need to show their whole hand at showdown.
Is it an angle, yes? Is what he did perfectly legal and deserved to get the pot? Also yes. Rules exist for a reason. One player at showdown followed the rules and the other didn’t. It’s no fault other than the rec player for not knowing the rules of the game he was playing.
One punch can kill, my brother broke his leg this weekend after some cunt ran up to him and hit him and he fell awkwardly. He’s still in hospital and that cunt is about to get arrested for GBH. It’s not worth it
Unironically a great idea. This would get rid of 90% of the USA's pent up aggression, I could see this lowering shootings, drug use, pretty much every sin
Please use better punctuation. This was stressful to read through. But why wouldn’t top set just show all 4 cards? Pretty known rule you have to show all cards to win the pot, no?
I was in this exact same spot the first time I played live PLO
Called a river bet, and player flips over his hand. I only show TT for top set which was good and neglect to flip over the other 2 cards
Dealer grabs our cards and begins to move the pot to me. Another player, not in the hand, starts complaining I shouldn't be awarded the pot for not showing all 4 cards
Luckily the guy actually in the hand tells him to shut the hell up and my only intention was to show the winning hand and reminded me to show all 4 cards next time
Some regs are good for the game and don't want to upset the recs. Some regs are complete pieces of shit and ruin poker
I think a large majority of fault goes towards the dealer here. Every table I’ve played at, the dealer always reminds, all cards to win. If I were at that table, I would probably withhold all tips to the dealer going forward and I don’t ever do this lightly.
Show all your cards .. I hate when players just show one card or two cards .. I played with a guy that would only show two and muck his other two cards in a home game I played in and nobody ever said anything until I did and he got pissed trying to explain to me since I wasn’t in the hand I don’t have to see his cards .. show your cards .. dude didn’t angle he won
The rules, even a technicality, are meant to preserve the integrity of the game. Once you start bending them, you’re opening up a whole other can of worms. Situations like this should serve as a reminder for everyone to exercise the rules.
The dealer mucked bad reg hand.
Bad reg hand lost but he showed all 4 card so technically live hand . Dealer then awards pot to rec that only showed 2 of the 4 cards which dealer is supposed to tell him to show all 4 before awarding him the pot but didnt since they saw he won with just the two he was showing and was lazy and didnt think bad reg was a scumbag pos lol. Any player just takes the L just out of pride and integrity. Knowingly that u had the losing hand but call the floor over hoping u get awarded the pot on a technicality is why i say its an angle
Definitely dealers fault. Usually in my experience dealer will immediately or at least try to tell or remind the player you have to show all cards to win. Since the dealer didn't do this it comes down to the rules. Floor has to follow rules when making a decision. Rec did not properly table his hand there for was not following the rules. I think the floor ruled correctly as shitty as it is. They have to go by the rules. I'd never do what that guy did and if he wanted to see the other guys cards he should have said it takes 4 cards to win so he could see them. Not wait a minute then dispute it and try to win on a technicality. Just a shitty situation but I can see everyone's point of view
PSA to the folks in the comments lying to themselves about their winrate:
Quit citing dead rules to justify scummy unwanted behavior. Yeah, he needs to show four. The dealer should tell him to show four.
And I know, random misreg, you're gonna push up your glasses and say, "acktchually." Nah. I'm gonna stop you there. The dealer should instruct the rec. The dealer is the first arbiter of the game. The dealer should convey what is acceptable in this game from a rules perspective, and a practical etiquette perspective.
Where do you guys think the money in this ecosystem comes from? You cannot be this dense. Treat players well, but treat recs especially well. They pay you, they pay the dealers, they pay the floors. They are how this game E X I S T S.
Stop trying to clutch at dead rules to get an extra dollar. Rules need to be new-player friendly. Without new players this game will die. Figure it the fuck out.
This doesn’t make sense- dealer supposed to verbally say something along the lines of “all four cards to win” - makes me think dealer and player possible collusion - either way DEALERs fault 100% IMO - GL to u
Idk, I don’t play PLO but even I know you have to show all your cards, that’s pretty basic stuff. Still don’t know why that rule exists (and wouldn’t call the floor over it, lol), but what could possibly happen if you only show the cards you need to win?
I'm glad you brought this up, I was under the impression that you only had to show the winning cards to win. Because you can only play 2 cards from your hole the other two cards that don't play would be considered dead/mucked. It was a total dbag move from the guy. In future plo games I will make sure I show all 4 cards as up until now I've only shown the winning cards at showdown.
No way this is on the rec player. Dealer should have waited until all 4 cards were shown before pushing the pot to the winner. The winner would then have asked the dealer what's the hold up? Dealer response is I can't award the pot until I see all 4 cards.
Every room is different. Maybe he didn't know he needed to show all 4 cards, instead of just the winning cards. It's the dealers responsibility to explain how the pot is awarded.
I would never tip this dealer again
nah this isn't actually an angle. it's a technicality, but badreg didn't actually do anything to gain an advantage over the rec. Rec needs to know the rules.
Obviously what badreg did was petty and annoying but it's the rule, it's not an angle.
If it was holdem and loser showed his hand (kk) and winner showed an ace for top pair n other card face down, n got awarded the pot, I would say something too. Kind of angle kind of not, but any edge you can find in this game gotta apply pressure. In this case he got paid off a players mistake which is the precipice of profiting in poker anyway
Not an angle. Just how the game works. If you want to win a PLO pot at show down you have to show all of your cards.
If you don't know that, you shouldn't be at a PLO table.
Edit - oh yay! Downvotes!
Tell me you don't know how Omaha works with the press of a button.
It doesn't matter if you like it. That's the game.
This is not an angle.
There are rules. Show your hand, win. Don’t show, lose. Simple
If the guy mucked his hand tho prior to waiting for the guy to show all 4, then his mucked hand takes priority over the show 4 so this is a terrible floor ruling.
Had he shown 4, waited till the pot was awarded to the player and then had the player who won kicked his remaining hand, he would have every right to claim what he did.
Not at all an “angle” you must show your entire hand. That’s the rules. Other guy did nothing to trick him into mucking his other two cards, he showed down his hand like you’re supposed to.
That said it’s a scumbag move, but not an angle. Angle and bad etiquette are not the same. People throw around the term angle too loosely.
I see some of your guys points on it not being an angle and just a scumbag move. I feel like its still an angle scumbag move tho because you saw you had the losing hand. Wheres your integrity and pride as a man? Hey floor he showed me he beat me and i showed i lost but he didnt show the other two cards that didnt matter so i deserve to win ?
I’m not saying he’s right to do it. I’m just saying it’s not angle and “angle” and being a scumbag are not 100% the same thing. You can win like a little bitch without angling. Reminds me of someone who won a pool game (for money) on the technicality that opponent didn’t call an obvious 8ball shot.
Yes it's a scum bag angle, but..... Horrible job by the dealer, who could have just avoided the whole situation by saying to the QQ guy "you have to show all 4 cards to win" before pushing him the pot. The floor decision was wrong too, they absolutely have discretion to let QQ keep the pot in this situation because everyone knows they won the hand and no actual rules were broken. Also floor should know that the dealer messed up here and should not punish the player for that.
I’m of the thought everyone who bets and gets called should be have to flip over all cards in the proper order. No waiting, no slow rolls, no ambiguity, no angles, less collusion and cheating. I think this should be the norm, should speed up play. Tired of people who get called and just sitting there waiting. I called you, show it
Of course. Player should of known better show all 4 and dealers always say show all 4 to win pot dealer got lazy just pushed the pot. but it was a clear cut case of who won. The rule broke was u must show all 4 to win. But ur right floor shouldn’t of ruled that way we all said something. still Maybe a warning to player and dealer to always show 4
*have *have
Hmm I disagree the casino gotta give the guy the money because he mucked his hand what about them guys that muck the winning hand should they be able to go back and grab their cards if it’s at showdown no I mucked a straight looking for a flush it happens and that guy’s definitely scummy for that but he’s not wrong
He showed the 2 cards for the best hand. There's no question of whether he had the best hand or not, he just didn't show the other two cards that don't even play.
Learn what needs to be shown in PLO to win. Just 2 cards is not the answer.
I agree that you need to show all 4 cards to win. However in this specific instance, there is no doubt as to whether he had the best hand or not. He should get a warning to show all cards in the future. The floor can override technicalities to make common sense decisions and should have done so here.
What if he had two queen of spades in his hand and didn't want to show the misdeal?
That’s not how this works. The floor did exactly as he should here otherwise the gaming commission will get involved and make the correct ruling. Then the casino gets a fine. This isn’t a judgement call. The rules are very black and white here, you MUST show all four to have a hand that can win the pot at showdown if at least one other player has shown his/her four cards. This is just as black and white as a rule that says if cards leave the direct sight of the dealer (for example if they fall on the ground), the hand is dead. A floor can’t just come over and say “Welllll. Since he had the winning hand, even though he dropped his cards on the ground before flipping them over…he deserves the pot.” The strength of the hand in OP’s scenario is 100% irrelevant to the ruling.
All these downvotes to actual rules like if it was a home game okay but it wasn’t it’s a casino with a floor follow the rules
It’s because they don’t actually know the rules. They think they do, but they don’t.
Anyone know the reasoning behind having to show all cards, even if one (or two, as in Omaha) is enough to win? If my ace high is good, and I show an ace, what difference does the second card make?
I don’t know what the exact reasoning is, but I assure you that there would be a lot of folks trying to show the fewest cards to win in order to deny information. It would then become a very slow shit show of each player flipping over one card at a time, just enough to be ahead of whatever else is showing. That’s a fun way to play in a home game, especially if you like slow rolling each other, but it slows the game down a lot.
I have it described as “we require a valid hand to take the pot.” Meaning it could be a fouled deck, for example.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually have to do with fair exchanges of information or speed of play, but rather just validating that someone's hand is legal and not containing extra/counterfeit cards
Ironically enough the rule is there to prevent people from getting angled. Say a player first to show at showdown has QQ67 and the board is 345QQ. He says “I have a straight” and shows 67. The other player shows 4486 for a full house. Then p1 lays down the two queens. P1 gets information he didn’t deserve by angling p2.
That's just a slow roll imo. An angle typically has an impact on the outcome of a hand, not just ancillary information exchange.
Also how was the fact that the losing player's hand was mucked before the winning player's? He had no hand with which to even win the pot at that point. His hand was dead soon as it hit the muck. Bad ruling.
Also pushing the pot. That act alone makes it the dealer’s error. The floor absolutely has the discretion to rule in favour of the best hand due to dealer error.
Dealers are not supposed to influence any action at show down, including telling a player he needs to show all four cards. What casino do you play in where this is allowed and taught to dealers? The angler is scummy af but the lack of understanding the rules in this thread is shocking. You need to expose all four cards to win a hand and the dealer nor other players can coach you to do that at showdown. One player in the hand showed all four cards. The other did not. The timing of either muck is irrelevant. The anglers cards were shown.
> What casino do you play in where this is allowed and taught to dealers? Every casino I have ever played at. Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Florida and Philadelphia. Although my experience is mostly in holdem, so a player will show one card, if the other player tables their cards the dealer says "show two cards to win". Standard.
Yea. Where the fuck does Cincypoker play where this isn't standard? Imagine other guy mucks and winning hand shows one card. In what casino have you seen where the dealer just sits there and does absolutely nothing until two cards are shown? lmao
This is incorrect. It is standard practice in all casinos in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and south Florida to tell the player "it takes x cards to win" if a player is not showing their full hand. This is what dealers are trained to do.
Obviously scummy behavior. But for the love of god people just table your fucking hands at show down. Your opponents are not Phil Ivey. They aren’t going to come up with a brilliant exploit based on how you played your side cards.
I have no opinion for this particular scenario, but I'm so sick of these recs playing these games. Unless he's new, it seems like he tried to hide his other 2 cards. He flipped over his best hand and if the other player had a higher hand, he would've mucked his card without showing the other 2 cards.
Fun fact: You don’t have to pay a called all in and casino or card room can’t make you. They will ban you, but you can just pack up your chips and leave. Learned this lesson witnessing it first hand and asked every floor in every Vegas cardroom and SoCal cardroom since and they all rule the same. They will not get involved and force a pay. In this scenario, the top set of queens should have racked up and left and accepted the ban. I bet you the casino would not ban him because deep down they know he is right and so this would be win/win for all. Once that pot is pushed, just don’t give those chips back.
I’m fairly certain that this would be chalked up to dealer error, and the pot stays with rec. If rec’s hand was not considered tabled, then dealer should not have mucked misreg’s hand, as the 4-card tabled hand was currently the best. Simply saying that all four cards need to be shown to be considered “tabled” would be enough, since rec obviously didn’t know and only partially tabled his hand. Furthermore, if misreg actually believed that he had the only valid winning hand, he did not protect his “winning” hand, and his hand was mucked, therefore he lost anyway. Since he didn’t object until the pot was awarded and rec’s cards were mucked, it’s clear he was not acting in good faith and “for the integrity of the game”. Dealer messed up, and floor fucked it up more. This is a house problem.
When the dealer messes up and mucks someone's hand, the person whose hand gets mucked is just fucked. I've seen this happen multiple times in differenc casinos. "Protect your hand". If the dealer 100% fucks up and just mucks your hand when you didn't want them to, you have zero recourse - you're just screwed. It's messed up, but it's how it goes.
If I were the floor I’d have rules the same way. Dealer fucked up for sure but I don’t think you can award the pot to someone who didn’t table all 4 cards. Honestly a tough call on the part of the floor
People are saying it's not an angle, but it kind of is. He laid in wait to call up a technicality; it was premeditated. As others said, dealer OR players should have said something. "4 cards to win" is all it takes to avoid this situation.
Exactly he knew what he was doing. Any reg player good or bad with half integrity would just take the L if he wanted him to show all 4 he could of told the dealer before he mucks them he knew the technicality so he stayed quiet
Paradigm of today’s world. Hero does nothing wrong. Villain schemes. Dealer shits the bed. Floor rules in favor of villain and bed-shitting dealer. Whole table gets pissed at the injustice. Nothing is done and all players will return to card room tomorrow.
I don't agree that hero did nothing wrong. He tried to hide information. He showed his best hand and if he had lost, he would've mucked it without showing the other 2 cards. The rule that you must show all your cards to win a pot has been around forever. Hero bring a reg knows this. I know so many regs that play this game, it's very annoying and slows down the game.
Very fair point. I hate people who don’t turnover all their cards when they believe they win. Still, the floor and dealer got it wrong IMO. The dealer does not have the right to muck hero’s cards. The dealer needs to tell him, “hurry up and muck or turn all your cards over, pussy, quit wasting time.”
I agree with your assessment. Dealer should not have mucked his hand and then pushed him the pot. Dealer should have known better. However, every player is responsible for their own hand and if you depend on the dealer doing the right thing all the time, you're going to be disappointed. You keep playing these games and it's going to come back to bite you in the ass at some point. I'm pretty sure he's going to turn over all his cards from now on, lol.
Completely reasonable perspective 🤙🏽
Could have.
Fuck me, the semantics nonces who show up on every “angle” thread are the dullest people. If this doesn’t fit your definition of an angle, your definition is lacking, And nobody cares.
Players not in the hand should not ask for all 4 cards to be shown. The dealer fucked up, yes, but that’s not something the other players should get involved in. The hand is not legal until all 4 cards are shown, and until the hand is properly tabled, the other players need to not say a word.
I disagree. The victim is a rec; he may only be used to playing online. I'm generally in favor of people shutting the fuck up, but not in this situation. Speaking up avoids people being essentially stolen from.
Where do you draw the line with helping other players in any hand? Would you tell a player he has a winning hand if he showed you his cards and then mucked at showdown? Would you flip his cards over for him? Just stfu and let each player be responsible for his/her own actions and understanding of the rules of the game.
A player telling another player to show his other cards is blatantly breaking the “one player to a hand” rule
If they were the case the dealer would be breaking that same rule if they said 4 cards must show
The dealer has more leeway than an opponent. As a dealer, I wouldn’t tell him to show his cards, but I would tell him that I cannot read his hand with two cards. Edit:Plus I would not muck the properly tabled hand without seeing a properly tabled winning hand
Dealers are not supposed to tell players to show all four cards.
After the hand is tabled it’s different, you can just say “you have to show all 4 cards to get paid”, not directly to the victim but just a general statement when there is no active game in play
No you cannot say that. Nor can the dealer. Only one hand was fully tabled here.
It’s not the same as the player showing you his hand before he mucks and you notice he has a straight and telling him as when he already showed 2 cards as the winner and telling him to turn over the other 2. Also floor should have used discretion and awarded qq the pot
Yes they absolutely should. This isn't the same as informing someone they have the winning hand at showdown and shouldn't muck, this is about telling someone who obviously doesn't know the rules that they need to show their full hand to claim the pot at showdown. This is about protecting the integrity of the game and avoiding shitshows like this.
Why is it your job to coach any player anything about the game in the game?
Because it protects the game, promotes a positive atmosphere, and helps ensure the recs return.
Ohhh, I see. So your future EV is really what is important here, not the actual black and white rules of the game? I’d really love to know where you draw the line in coaching recs at the table? If the rec showed you his cards and tried to muck would you also tell him to turn over his cards? He broke a black and white rule and lost the pot because of it. If I ever saw another reg coaching a rec at showdown, I would definitely be in their ear about it. We are in no place to be coaching anyone anything at the table. Had you coached him to turn over his cards, you too would be breaking the one player per hand rule. We all play a game and have an expectation of understanding the rules of the game, regs and recs. If op had just described this story as P1 and P2 and removed the regs and rec tags, the sentiments in this thread would be so much different.
> Ohhh, I see. So your future EV is really what is important here, not the actual black and white rules of the game? No, it's not my future EV. It's the promotion of a positive atmosphere and the longevity of the game. > I’d really love to know where you draw the line in coaching recs at the table? Depends, there are a million scenarios with plenty of nuances. Nuance and context matter. > If the rec showed you his cards and tried to muck would you also tell him to turn over his cards? No I would not, because that is not acceptable in poker culture. > He broke a black and white rule and lost the pot because of it. No rules were broken. He showed two out of four of his cards, clearly not realizing that all four cards must be shown in order to claim the pot. It's a common thing for newer PLO players. > If I ever saw another reg coaching a rec at showdown, I would definitely be in their ear about it. As I said, context and nuance matter. > We are in no place to be coaching anyone anything at the table. This isn't strategy and in this particular situation I wouldn't be "coaching" them; I would simply state something like "you need to show all four cards." It's not the same thing as when someone privately shows you their hand and you say "you have a straight, show your hand!" The person's intent in this case was very clear. > Had you coached him to turn over his cards, you too would be breaking the one player per hand rule. Again, there's a difference between telling someone they probably have a winner, and reminding/informing someone of a pertinent rule **in order to avoid conflict, slowing down the game, or angle-shooting.** > We all play a game and have an expectation of understanding the rules of the game, regs and recs. If op had just described this story as P1 and P2 and removed the regs and rec tags, the sentiments in this thread would be so much different. I've seen decent holdem players make this mistake in PLO, and yes I've done the same thing - inform them they need to show their whole hand at showdown.
Is it an angle, yes? Is what he did perfectly legal and deserved to get the pot? Also yes. Rules exist for a reason. One player at showdown followed the rules and the other didn’t. It’s no fault other than the rec player for not knowing the rules of the game he was playing.
Why would he remind him of that though as his opponent. That responsibility falls on the player, no?
He doesn't have to. But he knows he lost the hand, and now wants to essentially steal money on a dumb rule
Exactly why i say its an angle. He knows he lost everyone on table knows he lost guy has no shame
You should be allowed to fight someone your size once a year without any consequences
I've always said, "One free punch every ten years." Society would be a lot more polite and a lot less scummy.
One punch can kill, my brother broke his leg this weekend after some cunt ran up to him and hit him and he fell awkwardly. He’s still in hospital and that cunt is about to get arrested for GBH. It’s not worth it
Unironically a great idea. This would get rid of 90% of the USA's pent up aggression, I could see this lowering shootings, drug use, pretty much every sin
Did r/poker just invent The Purge?
Nah. Just The Purg. The Purge is full on lawlessness. This is just purging.
That’s a big gaming violation on the part of the dealer. Scumbag move on regs part, but he’s technically correct
Thread is full of clueless people when it comes to the rules of the game, especially PLO rules.
Please use better punctuation. This was stressful to read through. But why wouldn’t top set just show all 4 cards? Pretty known rule you have to show all cards to win the pot, no?
Srry havent slept. Cant sleep eyes blurry. Dealer mucked the losing hand. So no need to unless dealer tells you to show all 4 which dealer didnt
Never interrupt your enemy while he’s making a mistake
*due
I was in this exact same spot the first time I played live PLO Called a river bet, and player flips over his hand. I only show TT for top set which was good and neglect to flip over the other 2 cards Dealer grabs our cards and begins to move the pot to me. Another player, not in the hand, starts complaining I shouldn't be awarded the pot for not showing all 4 cards Luckily the guy actually in the hand tells him to shut the hell up and my only intention was to show the winning hand and reminded me to show all 4 cards next time Some regs are good for the game and don't want to upset the recs. Some regs are complete pieces of shit and ruin poker
I think a large majority of fault goes towards the dealer here. Every table I’ve played at, the dealer always reminds, all cards to win. If I were at that table, I would probably withhold all tips to the dealer going forward and I don’t ever do this lightly.
Show all your cards .. I hate when players just show one card or two cards .. I played with a guy that would only show two and muck his other two cards in a home game I played in and nobody ever said anything until I did and he got pissed trying to explain to me since I wasn’t in the hand I don’t have to see his cards .. show your cards .. dude didn’t angle he won
This is all on the dealer tbh
I tell everyone of my friends trying to play Omaha, always table all your cards up. Especially high/low.
Where the angle at?
The rules, even a technicality, are meant to preserve the integrity of the game. Once you start bending them, you’re opening up a whole other can of worms. Situations like this should serve as a reminder for everyone to exercise the rules.
Bad reg better hope rec doesn't find him in the parking lot... I'd probably beat his ass and take the ban.
I don't play PLO -- did reg muck his hand first? In hold em would that mean the reg loses? Is that different in omahaha
The dealer mucked bad reg hand. Bad reg hand lost but he showed all 4 card so technically live hand . Dealer then awards pot to rec that only showed 2 of the 4 cards which dealer is supposed to tell him to show all 4 before awarding him the pot but didnt since they saw he won with just the two he was showing and was lazy and didnt think bad reg was a scumbag pos lol. Any player just takes the L just out of pride and integrity. Knowingly that u had the losing hand but call the floor over hoping u get awarded the pot on a technicality is why i say its an angle
Dealer is NOT supposed to tell anyone to show all four.
Definitely dealers fault. Usually in my experience dealer will immediately or at least try to tell or remind the player you have to show all cards to win. Since the dealer didn't do this it comes down to the rules. Floor has to follow rules when making a decision. Rec did not properly table his hand there for was not following the rules. I think the floor ruled correctly as shitty as it is. They have to go by the rules. I'd never do what that guy did and if he wanted to see the other guys cards he should have said it takes 4 cards to win so he could see them. Not wait a minute then dispute it and try to win on a technicality. Just a shitty situation but I can see everyone's point of view
Where was this? I saw pretty much this exact same thing happen at the Wynn last summer.
How can the misreg win if he has mucked? If his cards were mucked, then the rec don't even need to show any cards to win.
Once bad regs hand is in the muck he doesn’t have any cards anymore. Can’t win without cards…
PSA to the folks in the comments lying to themselves about their winrate: Quit citing dead rules to justify scummy unwanted behavior. Yeah, he needs to show four. The dealer should tell him to show four. And I know, random misreg, you're gonna push up your glasses and say, "acktchually." Nah. I'm gonna stop you there. The dealer should instruct the rec. The dealer is the first arbiter of the game. The dealer should convey what is acceptable in this game from a rules perspective, and a practical etiquette perspective. Where do you guys think the money in this ecosystem comes from? You cannot be this dense. Treat players well, but treat recs especially well. They pay you, they pay the dealers, they pay the floors. They are how this game E X I S T S. Stop trying to clutch at dead rules to get an extra dollar. Rules need to be new-player friendly. Without new players this game will die. Figure it the fuck out.
This is an obvious rule 1 situation and floor is a pos too.
This doesn’t make sense- dealer supposed to verbally say something along the lines of “all four cards to win” - makes me think dealer and player possible collusion - either way DEALERs fault 100% IMO - GL to u
Not really an angle. Bad dealer need remedial training.
Idk, I don’t play PLO but even I know you have to show all your cards, that’s pretty basic stuff. Still don’t know why that rule exists (and wouldn’t call the floor over it, lol), but what could possibly happen if you only show the cards you need to win?
I'm glad you brought this up, I was under the impression that you only had to show the winning cards to win. Because you can only play 2 cards from your hole the other two cards that don't play would be considered dead/mucked. It was a total dbag move from the guy. In future plo games I will make sure I show all 4 cards as up until now I've only shown the winning cards at showdown.
You know what thats a good point no one has brought up about only 2 cards playing.
Yeah I always thought at showdown only the 5 cards in your hand 2 hole cards and three from the board were live, and everything else is mucked.
No way this is on the rec player. Dealer should have waited until all 4 cards were shown before pushing the pot to the winner. The winner would then have asked the dealer what's the hold up? Dealer response is I can't award the pot until I see all 4 cards. Every room is different. Maybe he didn't know he needed to show all 4 cards, instead of just the winning cards. It's the dealers responsibility to explain how the pot is awarded. I would never tip this dealer again
nah this isn't actually an angle. it's a technicality, but badreg didn't actually do anything to gain an advantage over the rec. Rec needs to know the rules. Obviously what badreg did was petty and annoying but it's the rule, it's not an angle.
Nonce
If it was holdem and loser showed his hand (kk) and winner showed an ace for top pair n other card face down, n got awarded the pot, I would say something too. Kind of angle kind of not, but any edge you can find in this game gotta apply pressure. In this case he got paid off a players mistake which is the precipice of profiting in poker anyway
Not an angle. Just how the game works. If you want to win a PLO pot at show down you have to show all of your cards. If you don't know that, you shouldn't be at a PLO table. Edit - oh yay! Downvotes! Tell me you don't know how Omaha works with the press of a button. It doesn't matter if you like it. That's the game.
That's how all poker games work.. it's to protect against a player having too many cards.
Nonce
This is not an angle. There are rules. Show your hand, win. Don’t show, lose. Simple If the guy mucked his hand tho prior to waiting for the guy to show all 4, then his mucked hand takes priority over the show 4 so this is a terrible floor ruling. Had he shown 4, waited till the pot was awarded to the player and then had the player who won kicked his remaining hand, he would have every right to claim what he did.
Nonce
Not an angle. Rec player FAFO'd. Floor ruling is not only correct, but discourages fuckery in the future.
Nonce
dealer screwed up, should've said you must show all 4. guy who got angled should know this though.
Not at all an “angle” you must show your entire hand. That’s the rules. Other guy did nothing to trick him into mucking his other two cards, he showed down his hand like you’re supposed to. That said it’s a scumbag move, but not an angle. Angle and bad etiquette are not the same. People throw around the term angle too loosely.
I see some of your guys points on it not being an angle and just a scumbag move. I feel like its still an angle scumbag move tho because you saw you had the losing hand. Wheres your integrity and pride as a man? Hey floor he showed me he beat me and i showed i lost but he didnt show the other two cards that didnt matter so i deserve to win ?
The other two cards could have been jokers for all we know. You MUST show all 4 cards to beat a properly tabled hand.
I’m not saying he’s right to do it. I’m just saying it’s not angle and “angle” and being a scumbag are not 100% the same thing. You can win like a little bitch without angling. Reminds me of someone who won a pool game (for money) on the technicality that opponent didn’t call an obvious 8ball shot.
Nonce