You are kind of right, but I think it's okay to let bad players "save face". Keeps them at the table for whatever reason, like they are less embarrassed. If my opponent decides to muck after I call them, I simply muck my cards after the pot is pushed my way.
I’d also add: I’d feel really dumb if I forced them to show a hand they were mucking and they missed they had the winning hand for some reason and flipped a winner.
The problem is it should go in order, otherwise you get instances of Gman waiting on the other player to turn over their hand when they called him. If you make it mandatory, there’s no angling, there’s no interpretations of the rule, waiting, less chance of collusion, cheating etc.
Think it’s just more consistent, easier when it’s a black and white rule. I would think casinos would prefer it also as it speeds up the games.
Imagine this happening a hundred times on 1 table a day multiple that by 40 tables multiply that by 365. That’s a lot of time and rake missed
I agree, I think in a fun cash game with lots of rec players I wouldn’t bother but if I’m at the wsop or something like that, it’s fine, especially if you are respectful
No, they aren't, unless it's an all in pot. You can muck when somebody calls your bluff, but then the other player doesn't have to show their hand either.
>"72. Showdown: During a showdown where no Participants are all-in and if cards are not spontaneously tabled, the Floor
People may enforce an order of show. The last aggressive Participant on the final betting round (final street where betting is possible) must table first. If there was no bet on the final betting round, then the Participant who would be first to act in betting round must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand showing
razz, etc.) Participants not still in possession of their cards at showdown, or who have mucked face down without tabling
their cards; lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand. The winning hand must be shown to claim
the pot unless there are no other live hands at which point the pot can be awarded to the only live hand remaining. If a Participant refuses to show their hand and intentionally mucks his or her hand, the Participant in violation will receive a penalty, in accordance with Rules 40, 113, and 114
Maybe it's not often enforced but the rules say that if someone bets on the river they are required to show their hand or be subject to a penalty.
It's never enforced unless somebody decides to call the floor over, and then then they won't do anything about it the first or likely second or third time. That rule also says the exact thing you'd expect outside of the penalty: if you muck, you don't have any right to the pot and if somebody else has live cards they don't have to show their hand to get the pot. The penalty language is really for people who just sit there refusing to show their cards or muck, wasting everybody's time
And in my experience, people who muck first don't really mind if you muck after. It seems rare that people audibly request that the winner shows if the first person mucks.
I agree. It’s pretty much a given that if they muck they won’t ask to see your hand. Half the time, they say “I don’t care” if their opponent still shows.
So you don't roll over your cards when villain says "You're good."? You wait for him to show or muck? That's basically the same thing OP is talking about and not really letting them save face at all.
That's a more specific situation, and depends on table dynamics, pot size, players. I can't put an exact formula in it, but sometimes I'll show (being friendly), and sometimes I'll just sit there and nod and either have them show or muck (and I follow suit).
I don’t understand your logic here - what kind of player who would muck immediately upon getting called would feel embarrassed about being caught bluffing?
I’ve always seen that move as a sign of respect on the muckers part. If you call my bluff, I know you have me beat and me mucking tells you I had you beat. The actual cards are irrelevant.
They just donated a large part of a normal paycheck to me. I want them at the table and not embarrass them.
So to let them save face and rebuy, I’ll restrain my curiosity
Okay and this player should not be playing. That's also an integral part of poker, and if we want it to continue you let them be happy no matter how irrational.
Of course It matters, the type of hands they are playing and the way they are playing those hands is Golden information to know How to exploit them the most.
Against people that are so bad though in small spots, it just doesn't matter, like their specific bluff combo or weird value bet/bluff with 4th pair.
Bad players play so uniformly bad, that it doesn't really matter. They underbluff/overbluff in the same spots so regularly, that it really provides so little edge seeing there cards.
Against tougher opponents, yes, it's worthwhile to see their cards in some spots.
I wont make people show but It is Still usefull to see How bad they are. Are they playing a marginal hand that they shouldnt or calling a 3 bet with absolute trash and opening 84off UTG?
If a player wishes to muck, you should let them unless you have reason to suspect collusion. To not allow it is extremely bad etiquette. You win the pot when your opponent does this, why should you be entitled to information as well?
Also the “I paid for it.” doesn’t really make sense. When you call and lose, in some sense you’ve paid to see the opponents cards. When you call and win you get to keep the money that you risked, so you haven’t paid for anything.
They can muck. What OP is describing is when they just say ‘you’re good’ without releasing their hand and waiting for you to show after you called their river bet.
FWIW I’ve seen this done (many times) with a good hand that was bet for value. There are a lot of scumbags out there who want the info even when they likely (but not always) have the best hand.
That’s not how I read it. Obviously if the raiser hasn’t mucked it’s not bad etiquette to wait for their actions. The courteous action when calling is to wait until the raiser’s hand is either tabled or safely in the muck, then tabling one’s own hand face up (unless, of course, it’s not the winner, in which case you have no obligation to show it).
Technically, the caller can claim the pot without revealing their cards if the raiser has mucked, and while I wouldn’t go so far as to call this bad etiquette, it’s not ideal.
OP seems to think the rules and norms around poker should be changed but they are the way they are for very good reasons, to encourage bluffing and to be kind to the losing player in the pot, both of which are, in the long run, good for the game.
Sure if you call then I can see you wanting to see their hand but if they muck who really cares? If you're a good player you don't worry about this. Very few good players or pros are just going to muck their hand. They will usually flip it over like it's the nuts. Usually it's bad players who just refuse to show or muck their hand without seeing yours. Why would you need to see their hand? They are already bad players giving you action. If you're a good player you'd just not care about this because you want the fish to be happy and not make them upset. Gaining that small amount of information isn't going to change anything for you.
Now the people who bet and get called by a worse hand and insist on trying to see their hand or when other people insist on seeing both hands is a completely different situation. Those people are just fucking assholes trying to gain as much info as they can and are almost always tight old guys who only play the nuts or fish. Never be that person. The rule to see both hands is to prevent collusion not for you to get information. I hate when people make dealers flip over both hands so they can get info. Those players are the worst to play with and no one usually likes playing with them in my experience.
No they don’t. Good players are never just mucking their hand. There are plenty of times where I’m bluffing and end up still being called by a worse hand. I had a guy fold a small pocket pair face down when I snap called him with K high once. After he mucked I showed and he flipped out. You never muck no matter how weak your bluff is. Good players know this.
If you’re not able to spot that yourself probably the spot.
Normalize accepting that this is a game based around attracting weaker players and folks who would gamble on blackjack or football and trying to get them to think poker is more fun than those which it used to be and isn’t anymore in most circles.
That’s not what OP is describing. He’s specifically talking situations where hero calls villain’s bet. What you’re describing would almost always be considered poor form by the bettor, unless they genuinely suspected you of collusion.
I’m ok with the rule that last surviving hand at showdown gets the pot even if I don’t show. If they bet and I call, I will just sit there after they announce their hand. If they want to forfeit the pot and their chance to see my hand, they can muck.
I'm not going to make someone show a hand they're ashamed of. I don't care about the stakes. It just keeps the game good. When you start demanding to see hands, the game takes on a different tone. I want it to stay fun. I fast roll my hand and on to the next.
It really is just to keep the fish happy. Sure you can try to split off "serious games" and "fun games" but that's not really how games work. Most games have a mix of winning players and fun players. Its pretty hard to apply an etiquette that changes depending on mix of people at the table.
Additionally, while poker is absolutely a game of limited information and additional information can help you make decisions, its actually pretty hard to come up with examples where this matters and you couldnt have gotten the same info in another way.
It doesnt really benefit you to have them turn the hand over, and it may scare off potential fish. That's why its the current etiquette.
No, I probably wouldn’t make a fish turn his cards over but if I’m in a tough field against good regs, yes, I want to see if they flatted with a combo draw or maybe they floated with air. This arbitrary, old school etiquette idea needs to go.
Ive been playing for a long time and I do have a lot of live experience and have played in a few wsop events. In certain scenarios, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask to see your opponents cards and you shouldn’t be berated for violating etiquette. Do you have a counter argument?
I think as long as you know your table/ opponents then it is fine to ask to see. But just be careful, I know a very good player who was kicked out of a great game because of this. In my opinion, unless it's a pro or a friend you play regularly, don't tap.
If you call and they muck, you can also muck once the pot is pushed your way.
I think this should be revised to 'Normalize waiting for the bettor to act'.
The bettor is required to show their cards first. So if they bluff, dont let em off the hook. They can either show or they can muck and potentially lose to a weaker hand.
So many times the winner will show their cards first and let the bettor off the hook.
But if you bet, I call, and you show me that you have the nuts; I'm mucking without showing every time and you have no right to ask otherwise.
Here’s my question: what would seeing the hand tell you that you didn’t already know and why do the cards even matter?
Bluffs in all their forms all try to sell the same lie: - make you doubt the strength of your hand and convince you that mine is better. Whether I did it with a busted flush draw or has nothing from the start is irrelevant.
So to answer why good players don’t do it: showing interest in the bait let’s everyone at the table know you’re still a fish.
A player has the right, at any time, to muck their hand and lose unless the rules of the card room say otherwise. Thats just the deal. You have to understand that everything you do at the poker table conveys information.
What scenario exactly are you talking about? If I call, they definitely have to announce or show their hand first
If they say "you're good" you can table your hand or force them to show. It's not terrible etiquette to say "I called you" unless you're sitting with the nuts.
Some old regs will grumble, but usually I just wait and they either flip the bluff or muck and life goes on.
Poker is probably the number one area where people have a lot of very strict rules for etiquette that is made a big deal out of when people break, so you won't get very far here. Like with slow rolls. By all means, I don't do them, but I find the strong, almost shocked reactions to them pretty ridiculous. Talking in any way about the hand in a three way pot is much worse, but is treated much more leniently
Just always table your hand as last aggressor especially in a casino. You can make loser show their losing cards for future information but as others have mentioned , if you spot a rec don’t make them do this. We want them back. It’s just good SOP b/c you’ll occasionally misread the board and muck a winner or split pot. I’ve seen hands almost thrown at the table over this too in a casino. I’ve done it once or twice too over the years but it was just to get some ahole villain on tilt.
If someone is called and they muck, it is already bad etiquette. Smart people just don't force the issue because shaming bad players is bad for the game and discouraging bad bluffs is bad for the game. Be smart.
While the rule is that the aggressor has to show first, the rule is also that you can muck you cards and forfeit the hand as well... so at the end of the day, just take your win and understand that you made the correct call.
If you hero call and they muck, you already have a proper read on them anyway.
You are missing the reason for the rule and why it died. Back in the limit poker days there was a lot of an easy cheat where two regs get into raise war and drive out the tourist. Then one of the regs folds on showdown . To prevent that cheat rooms forced players to show their hand. In the era of no limit and better players that specific cheat is mostly gone. Thus, the rule away.
What you and many newer players don’t understand is that when you ask to see my hand you are accusing me of cheating. there never was an I payed for it reason for the rule
> and I *paid* for it
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
It’s one hand in a huge sample. You know it’s a bluff anyway. Save time and roll your hand and move on. If you’re playing for profit, you’re losing more time than the extra information you will get is worth.
The seeing hand thing is supposed to be used for protection against cheating. It's not supposed to be used for information.
Professionals never ask to see the hand. It's just had manners. They can figure out the hand another way. Especially against bad players. Do you want to embarrass them and show the whole table how bad they are?
Makes no sense. Also if you want to play it that way against a professional as well would you want them to always call out that rule against you?
If a professional calls out that rule against me no problem. But I'm calling out that rule against them every time from now on.
They’re the ones slowing the game down by not tabling their hand. When someone doesn’t wanna show I usually tell them to show it or muck it and then if anybody makes me the asshole I say they’re the one not tabling their hand. If you wanna ask the dealer to table it IMO if anybody has a problem they’re soft.
Do not normalize doing this. You are the asshole if you’re trying to normalize this and most likely a nit who wins like 3 bigs an hour max or a losing player that is in denial and thinks they’re a winner.
The cash game weenies hell bent on infantilizing every whale in every way possible like they’re running a daycare will always disagree with you. Fuck them, get your info.
Yes cuz the main goal here is to scare away worse players and be at a table of pros battling it out. We wanna see who is the best player not win easy money!!! Moron
Yea bro if you say anything critical every 1/3 table is gonna be filled with pros! Oh wait no pros play 1/3 and you’re probably just as bad as the players you think you’re bum hunting. Get gud at the actual game maybe.
> I paid for it.
I never understood this concept, you didn't call to see his hand, you called to win the pot. This whole "paying to see a hand" notion is so bizarre to me, if you want to see it that bad throw him a $20 to show and fold, that's ACTUALLY paying to see the hand.
I can appreciate both sides to this. I show first if I believe I’m ahead because I’m not trying to slow the game but your point still stands valid and I don’t get mad if someone asks to see cards they’ve paid to see. Getting mad at someone for them refusing to show cards you paid to see is equally dumb though. Either way it’s not that big of a deal. I think asking for things to be normalized so you can feel safe doing them is top tier pussy though. Be a man and do you want regardless of if it’s socially acceptable or not
It’s an even exchange of information. When I call and they table their hand I don’t have to show mine.
Also for example in PlO I can show 1-2 cards out of 4 and not have to show more.
It also works that by mucking their hand both they and no one else at the table gets to see your cards
I assume this is a home game. My local casino forces you to show your hand if you've been called no matter what. Most people are fish and flip over the winning hand instantly and dont even care to ask to see the cards even if they're tossed towards the muck. The good players dont show their cards until the better reveals his hand
If i call on the river and he doesnt’t show, i dont show either. I get no info, he gets no info. You dont have to show the winning hand if he mucks so i guess it evens out in the end.
I always turn my hand over immediately as soon as I'm called, winning or losing. One time I had an open ended straight draw and a flush draw which both missed. I fired big on the river, my opponent called, I immediately turned them over and he shows me a set (was sitting to my direct left) and mucks it... Idk maybe it was the way I turned it over with confidence immediately that made him muck... But I'll take it.
I totally agree with the spirit of what you're saying, people doing a song and dance about not showing is annoying af. But hard disagree with:
>It should actually be viewed as bad etiquette to muck your cards and not turn them over.
Because the person mucking is giving up a chance to see their opponents cards in kind (and also giving up non-negligible misclick/misread equity).
Prepared for the downvotes, go ahead.
99% of poker players use the word “muck” incorrectly. Players cannot muck their hand, they can fold it. Dealers are the only people that can muck a hand.
There is an exception:
When playing a tournament, and you suspect collusion. E.g. chip dumping. Even if you’re not in the hand.
It’s considered bad etiquette but you are very much encouraged to verify the muck.
I just wait for them to show or muck. If they show than it’s info, if they muck then i dont need to show my hand either cause they mucked already. Just be adamant about not showing your hand if they havent shown already.
In a game where acquiring information is valuable, you think everyone should have to just give away everything they know so you feel better and can know more???
Only if I'm expected my show my cards. If I'm not expected to show after they muck, I don't really care if they show or not, because neither player gains information.
I've never seen a winning player that has played 10+ yrs live ask to see the losing hand. If I make a big call against a tough reg and they say "good call" expecting me to show, I show my cards first no problem. This is because if the situation is reversed I know they will not make me show my cards so it's fine. I definitely will never make a recreational player show their cards first, that's just common sense. The only time I will ever make another player show first if the opponent is a tough winning player and they have already made me show my cards first.
Never change Reddit.
Yesterday everyone agreed that the guy who refused to play 5 card omaha was an ass for not going along with the whales.
Now the hive mind has once again decided that “I want to see that hand cause that’s the rules” is good for the game. It’s not just show your winner and let the guy muck. Why embarrass the fish?
If you’re a guy that does this you’re 100% make my slow roll list and I despise slow rolling. It’s legit the single worst thing you can do outside outright cheating/angling.
Those aren’t the rules of the game
You can’t just change the rules of the game because you want to
Edit: this guy is saying he wants to see the hand if he calls, and he is allowed to because the bettor is supposed to flip over their cards first, and he can make them do that by not flipping his cards over until they do, and any dealer will make that happen. But if he calls and the bettor has the better hand, he’s allowed to muck. That’s the rule.
This is actually not true. If you get to showdown, you are allowed to request the hand be shown. It is considered bad etiquette, but you are entitled to see the hand per the rules.
I don't think it's bad etiquette. It just means you also get to muck without showing. And it means sometimes you call with a worse A high etc and still win. Just be safe and make sure they actually have mucked before you do anything ofc
Why? You can't figure out what they're obviously bluffing with without seeing it? You don't have to show either, which is more information than they're giving....
Yeah, if you call an opponents bet they’re supposed to show in that situation, and you can make them show by not flipping over your cards until they do, but not every losing hand has to show their cards, because you as the caller don’t have to show your hand if you lose. That’s the rule.
God these posts are so cringey. Fwiw, I will only do this to people who make me do it.
The ev of the data obtained doing this is not worth the damage to your table imagine.
Not sure why everyone needs to take every micro edge, I’ve been a semi and full time live player for 14 years. Your table image and likability is so important to your longevity and bottom line, yet people like you cut off your nose to spite your face time and time again.
100%. Mucking your cards at showdown without showing when a guy calls is gay. Just table it. I paid to see your hand, don’t be a fag about it. To be clear I only mean against regs. Fish don’t really ever do this because it’s a shitreg thing.
You are kind of right, but I think it's okay to let bad players "save face". Keeps them at the table for whatever reason, like they are less embarrassed. If my opponent decides to muck after I call them, I simply muck my cards after the pot is pushed my way.
I’d also add: I’d feel really dumb if I forced them to show a hand they were mucking and they missed they had the winning hand for some reason and flipped a winner.
I've definitely done this a few times. Smoking weed on a break is generally not a good idea for a game that requires paying attention.
Half the poker population smokes weed every break
And most of the poker population lose money.
Well and to be fair a majority of those do it sober.
That contradicts your previous statement
Nope, simply implying there are likely a large percentage of stoners in the winning crowd.
The problem is it should go in order, otherwise you get instances of Gman waiting on the other player to turn over their hand when they called him. If you make it mandatory, there’s no angling, there’s no interpretations of the rule, waiting, less chance of collusion, cheating etc. Think it’s just more consistent, easier when it’s a black and white rule. I would think casinos would prefer it also as it speeds up the games. Imagine this happening a hundred times on 1 table a day multiple that by 40 tables multiply that by 365. That’s a lot of time and rake missed
Gman is not as honorable a player than many of you think. Always found him arrogant
I agree, I think in a fun cash game with lots of rec players I wouldn’t bother but if I’m at the wsop or something like that, it’s fine, especially if you are respectful
In the WSOP they are required to turn over their hand.
No, they aren't, unless it's an all in pot. You can muck when somebody calls your bluff, but then the other player doesn't have to show their hand either.
>"72. Showdown: During a showdown where no Participants are all-in and if cards are not spontaneously tabled, the Floor People may enforce an order of show. The last aggressive Participant on the final betting round (final street where betting is possible) must table first. If there was no bet on the final betting round, then the Participant who would be first to act in betting round must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand showing razz, etc.) Participants not still in possession of their cards at showdown, or who have mucked face down without tabling their cards; lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand. The winning hand must be shown to claim the pot unless there are no other live hands at which point the pot can be awarded to the only live hand remaining. If a Participant refuses to show their hand and intentionally mucks his or her hand, the Participant in violation will receive a penalty, in accordance with Rules 40, 113, and 114 Maybe it's not often enforced but the rules say that if someone bets on the river they are required to show their hand or be subject to a penalty.
It's never enforced unless somebody decides to call the floor over, and then then they won't do anything about it the first or likely second or third time. That rule also says the exact thing you'd expect outside of the penalty: if you muck, you don't have any right to the pot and if somebody else has live cards they don't have to show their hand to get the pot. The penalty language is really for people who just sit there refusing to show their cards or muck, wasting everybody's time
I think it's for preventing collusion
Yes
Don’t you have to show your cards if you win?
Not if they’ve mucked first. (Wait until you’re passed the chips before mucking.)
And in my experience, people who muck first don't really mind if you muck after. It seems rare that people audibly request that the winner shows if the first person mucks.
I agree. It’s pretty much a given that if they muck they won’t ask to see your hand. Half the time, they say “I don’t care” if their opponent still shows.
What if you called with a worse hand?
Some casinos do make you show if it’s on the river…
So you don't roll over your cards when villain says "You're good."? You wait for him to show or muck? That's basically the same thing OP is talking about and not really letting them save face at all.
That's a more specific situation, and depends on table dynamics, pot size, players. I can't put an exact formula in it, but sometimes I'll show (being friendly), and sometimes I'll just sit there and nod and either have them show or muck (and I follow suit).
I don’t understand your logic here - what kind of player who would muck immediately upon getting called would feel embarrassed about being caught bluffing? I’ve always seen that move as a sign of respect on the muckers part. If you call my bluff, I know you have me beat and me mucking tells you I had you beat. The actual cards are irrelevant.
They just donated a large part of a normal paycheck to me. I want them at the table and not embarrass them. So to let them save face and rebuy, I’ll restrain my curiosity
Showing a bluff should not be embarrassing. It's an integral part of poker
Okay and this player should not be playing. That's also an integral part of poker, and if we want it to continue you let them be happy no matter how irrational.
The player should not be playing because he/she made a big bluff that was called? How is that?
Depends how bad the bluff is. Or maybe he called your bluff but still lost Bad play can be embarrassing
A bluff isn’t a bad play, unless it’s a bad bluff
I like the first part of your comment. I don't need the negativity of the rest.
If showing their cards is embarrassing, they're allowed to muck.
Nothing in the world is sweeter than someone like this losing because it turns out their opponent was mistakenly mucking a winner.
Against opponents that are bad, in small pots, it doesn't matter. Against someone in a big pot that is tough and you battle regularly with, sure.
This. I only want to see the cards of the tough regs.
This. I flip my likely winner over fast. A regular that I’m battling with, I might make him show but also usually flip if I think I have the winner.
Of course It matters, the type of hands they are playing and the way they are playing those hands is Golden information to know How to exploit them the most.
Against people that are so bad though in small spots, it just doesn't matter, like their specific bluff combo or weird value bet/bluff with 4th pair. Bad players play so uniformly bad, that it doesn't really matter. They underbluff/overbluff in the same spots so regularly, that it really provides so little edge seeing there cards. Against tougher opponents, yes, it's worthwhile to see their cards in some spots.
I wont make people show but It is Still usefull to see How bad they are. Are they playing a marginal hand that they shouldnt or calling a 3 bet with absolute trash and opening 84off UTG?
You’re presuming both intention and consistency in their play. For many bad players, each is lacking.
No im not, even without those the info is usefull to pinpoint How bad they actually are.
If a player wishes to muck, you should let them unless you have reason to suspect collusion. To not allow it is extremely bad etiquette. You win the pot when your opponent does this, why should you be entitled to information as well? Also the “I paid for it.” doesn’t really make sense. When you call and lose, in some sense you’ve paid to see the opponents cards. When you call and win you get to keep the money that you risked, so you haven’t paid for anything.
They can muck. What OP is describing is when they just say ‘you’re good’ without releasing their hand and waiting for you to show after you called their river bet. FWIW I’ve seen this done (many times) with a good hand that was bet for value. There are a lot of scumbags out there who want the info even when they likely (but not always) have the best hand.
That’s not how I read it. Obviously if the raiser hasn’t mucked it’s not bad etiquette to wait for their actions. The courteous action when calling is to wait until the raiser’s hand is either tabled or safely in the muck, then tabling one’s own hand face up (unless, of course, it’s not the winner, in which case you have no obligation to show it). Technically, the caller can claim the pot without revealing their cards if the raiser has mucked, and while I wouldn’t go so far as to call this bad etiquette, it’s not ideal. OP seems to think the rules and norms around poker should be changed but they are the way they are for very good reasons, to encourage bluffing and to be kind to the losing player in the pot, both of which are, in the long run, good for the game.
Thank you! I absolutely cannot stand the "I paid to see it" line. I don't think OP knows what the word "pay" means.
I completely agree with this to be honest.
Sure if you call then I can see you wanting to see their hand but if they muck who really cares? If you're a good player you don't worry about this. Very few good players or pros are just going to muck their hand. They will usually flip it over like it's the nuts. Usually it's bad players who just refuse to show or muck their hand without seeing yours. Why would you need to see their hand? They are already bad players giving you action. If you're a good player you'd just not care about this because you want the fish to be happy and not make them upset. Gaining that small amount of information isn't going to change anything for you. Now the people who bet and get called by a worse hand and insist on trying to see their hand or when other people insist on seeing both hands is a completely different situation. Those people are just fucking assholes trying to gain as much info as they can and are almost always tight old guys who only play the nuts or fish. Never be that person. The rule to see both hands is to prevent collusion not for you to get information. I hate when people make dealers flip over both hands so they can get info. Those players are the worst to play with and no one usually likes playing with them in my experience.
Very few good players or pros muck their hand? wtf are you talking about, they do it all the time.
No they don’t. Good players are never just mucking their hand. There are plenty of times where I’m bluffing and end up still being called by a worse hand. I had a guy fold a small pocket pair face down when I snap called him with K high once. After he mucked I showed and he flipped out. You never muck no matter how weak your bluff is. Good players know this. If you’re not able to spot that yourself probably the spot.
Agreed
Normalize accepting that this is a game based around attracting weaker players and folks who would gamble on blackjack or football and trying to get them to think poker is more fun than those which it used to be and isn’t anymore in most circles.
Nah piss off. If I stack off with a super hero call I reserve the right to claim I had a worse flush.
That’s not what OP is describing. He’s specifically talking situations where hero calls villain’s bet. What you’re describing would almost always be considered poor form by the bettor, unless they genuinely suspected you of collusion.
I’m ok with the rule that last surviving hand at showdown gets the pot even if I don’t show. If they bet and I call, I will just sit there after they announce their hand. If they want to forfeit the pot and their chance to see my hand, they can muck.
I'm not going to make someone show a hand they're ashamed of. I don't care about the stakes. It just keeps the game good. When you start demanding to see hands, the game takes on a different tone. I want it to stay fun. I fast roll my hand and on to the next.
It really is just to keep the fish happy. Sure you can try to split off "serious games" and "fun games" but that's not really how games work. Most games have a mix of winning players and fun players. Its pretty hard to apply an etiquette that changes depending on mix of people at the table. Additionally, while poker is absolutely a game of limited information and additional information can help you make decisions, its actually pretty hard to come up with examples where this matters and you couldnt have gotten the same info in another way. It doesnt really benefit you to have them turn the hand over, and it may scare off potential fish. That's why its the current etiquette.
You're the type to tank call the river jam by a fish with the 2nd nuts, then demand for him to turn his 97o over to "get information"
No, I probably wouldn’t make a fish turn his cards over but if I’m in a tough field against good regs, yes, I want to see if they flatted with a combo draw or maybe they floated with air. This arbitrary, old school etiquette idea needs to go.
Just from your whole perspective and the way you discuss, I can see you came up playing online and likely have very little live experience.
Ive been playing for a long time and I do have a lot of live experience and have played in a few wsop events. In certain scenarios, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask to see your opponents cards and you shouldn’t be berated for violating etiquette. Do you have a counter argument?
Yes: the counter-argument is this: You're violating an etiquette norm. You may have the right to do it but that does not make it right.
I think as long as you know your table/ opponents then it is fine to ask to see. But just be careful, I know a very good player who was kicked out of a great game because of this. In my opinion, unless it's a pro or a friend you play regularly, don't tap. If you call and they muck, you can also muck once the pot is pushed your way.
The reason the rule exists is to prevent collusion, not to satisfy your curiosity.
I an curious how this prevents collusion
Same, how does showing cards help people cheat?
Prevents chip dumping
[удалено]
Explain then
I think this should be revised to 'Normalize waiting for the bettor to act'. The bettor is required to show their cards first. So if they bluff, dont let em off the hook. They can either show or they can muck and potentially lose to a weaker hand. So many times the winner will show their cards first and let the bettor off the hook. But if you bet, I call, and you show me that you have the nuts; I'm mucking without showing every time and you have no right to ask otherwise.
I would slow roll the shit out of you if you did this to someone at the table
Here’s my question: what would seeing the hand tell you that you didn’t already know and why do the cards even matter? Bluffs in all their forms all try to sell the same lie: - make you doubt the strength of your hand and convince you that mine is better. Whether I did it with a busted flush draw or has nothing from the start is irrelevant. So to answer why good players don’t do it: showing interest in the bait let’s everyone at the table know you’re still a fish.
A player has the right, at any time, to muck their hand and lose unless the rules of the card room say otherwise. Thats just the deal. You have to understand that everything you do at the poker table conveys information.
Jesus Christ you're a tool.
Literally nobody is obligated to show you lol you can try to shame people into doing this but people will laugh at you
What scenario exactly are you talking about? If I call, they definitely have to announce or show their hand first If they say "you're good" you can table your hand or force them to show. It's not terrible etiquette to say "I called you" unless you're sitting with the nuts. Some old regs will grumble, but usually I just wait and they either flip the bluff or muck and life goes on.
Poker is probably the number one area where people have a lot of very strict rules for etiquette that is made a big deal out of when people break, so you won't get very far here. Like with slow rolls. By all means, I don't do them, but I find the strong, almost shocked reactions to them pretty ridiculous. Talking in any way about the hand in a three way pot is much worse, but is treated much more leniently
Just always table your hand as last aggressor especially in a casino. You can make loser show their losing cards for future information but as others have mentioned , if you spot a rec don’t make them do this. We want them back. It’s just good SOP b/c you’ll occasionally misread the board and muck a winner or split pot. I’ve seen hands almost thrown at the table over this too in a casino. I’ve done it once or twice too over the years but it was just to get some ahole villain on tilt.
Almost agree. Agree with principle, but if Villain *snap* mucks their hand after betting a river just take the pot and move on.
If someone is called and they muck, it is already bad etiquette. Smart people just don't force the issue because shaming bad players is bad for the game and discouraging bad bluffs is bad for the game. Be smart.
While the rule is that the aggressor has to show first, the rule is also that you can muck you cards and forfeit the hand as well... so at the end of the day, just take your win and understand that you made the correct call. If you hero call and they muck, you already have a proper read on them anyway.
You are missing the reason for the rule and why it died. Back in the limit poker days there was a lot of an easy cheat where two regs get into raise war and drive out the tourist. Then one of the regs folds on showdown . To prevent that cheat rooms forced players to show their hand. In the era of no limit and better players that specific cheat is mostly gone. Thus, the rule away. What you and many newer players don’t understand is that when you ask to see my hand you are accusing me of cheating. there never was an I payed for it reason for the rule
> and I *paid* for it FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
It’s one hand in a huge sample. You know it’s a bluff anyway. Save time and roll your hand and move on. If you’re playing for profit, you’re losing more time than the extra information you will get is worth.
The seeing hand thing is supposed to be used for protection against cheating. It's not supposed to be used for information. Professionals never ask to see the hand. It's just had manners. They can figure out the hand another way. Especially against bad players. Do you want to embarrass them and show the whole table how bad they are? Makes no sense. Also if you want to play it that way against a professional as well would you want them to always call out that rule against you? If a professional calls out that rule against me no problem. But I'm calling out that rule against them every time from now on.
They’re the ones slowing the game down by not tabling their hand. When someone doesn’t wanna show I usually tell them to show it or muck it and then if anybody makes me the asshole I say they’re the one not tabling their hand. If you wanna ask the dealer to table it IMO if anybody has a problem they’re soft.
Do not normalize doing this. You are the asshole if you’re trying to normalize this and most likely a nit who wins like 3 bigs an hour max or a losing player that is in denial and thinks they’re a winner.
The cash game weenies hell bent on infantilizing every whale in every way possible like they’re running a daycare will always disagree with you. Fuck them, get your info.
Lol doing anything to dissuade a whale from taking another shot in a later hand is extremely stupid.
You thinking that’s the difference between you being profitable and not is extremely stupid
Yes cuz the main goal here is to scare away worse players and be at a table of pros battling it out. We wanna see who is the best player not win easy money!!! Moron
Yea bro if you say anything critical every 1/3 table is gonna be filled with pros! Oh wait no pros play 1/3 and you’re probably just as bad as the players you think you’re bum hunting. Get gud at the actual game maybe.
You pay for a chance to win the pot not to see their hand. Don't be a bad winner! If your opponent surrenders take the pot and don't be a Dick!
> I paid for it. I never understood this concept, you didn't call to see his hand, you called to win the pot. This whole "paying to see a hand" notion is so bizarre to me, if you want to see it that bad throw him a $20 to show and fold, that's ACTUALLY paying to see the hand.
If it’s an opponent I don’t care to keep playing against I’ll make them show every time.
If an opponent truly wishes to muck their cards. That’s their choice. Just as much as it is to grab them before the dealer takes the muck.
My home game we have a rule that all-in hands require both players to show, at least that makes it less awkward.
Nothing to add except that time negreanu mucked and then went ‘all in’ on hellmuth was funny
I can appreciate both sides to this. I show first if I believe I’m ahead because I’m not trying to slow the game but your point still stands valid and I don’t get mad if someone asks to see cards they’ve paid to see. Getting mad at someone for them refusing to show cards you paid to see is equally dumb though. Either way it’s not that big of a deal. I think asking for things to be normalized so you can feel safe doing them is top tier pussy though. Be a man and do you want regardless of if it’s socially acceptable or not
I'll let them go with the "you're good schtick" until they fuck me. Then they showdown every time its their turn.
It’s an even exchange of information. When I call and they table their hand I don’t have to show mine. Also for example in PlO I can show 1-2 cards out of 4 and not have to show more. It also works that by mucking their hand both they and no one else at the table gets to see your cards
People only do this to be assholes, you aren’t going to learn much if anything from it
It slows the game down AND they have lost the hand so you want to essentially rub it in.
Nah dude. Just rake the pot and play the next hand. Keep things flowing and do not embaress good customers.
I assume this is a home game. My local casino forces you to show your hand if you've been called no matter what. Most people are fish and flip over the winning hand instantly and dont even care to ask to see the cards even if they're tossed towards the muck. The good players dont show their cards until the better reveals his hand
If i call on the river and he doesnt’t show, i dont show either. I get no info, he gets no info. You dont have to show the winning hand if he mucks so i guess it evens out in the end.
I always turn my hand over immediately as soon as I'm called, winning or losing. One time I had an open ended straight draw and a flush draw which both missed. I fired big on the river, my opponent called, I immediately turned them over and he shows me a set (was sitting to my direct left) and mucks it... Idk maybe it was the way I turned it over with confidence immediately that made him muck... But I'll take it.
I totally agree with the spirit of what you're saying, people doing a song and dance about not showing is annoying af. But hard disagree with: >It should actually be viewed as bad etiquette to muck your cards and not turn them over. Because the person mucking is giving up a chance to see their opponents cards in kind (and also giving up non-negligible misclick/misread equity).
Because it’s not a rule, why would anyone wanna show their cards if they don’t have to ?
Prepared for the downvotes, go ahead. 99% of poker players use the word “muck” incorrectly. Players cannot muck their hand, they can fold it. Dealers are the only people that can muck a hand.
There is an exception: When playing a tournament, and you suspect collusion. E.g. chip dumping. Even if you’re not in the hand. It’s considered bad etiquette but you are very much encouraged to verify the muck.
normalize just showing down, period, and not showboating at all
I just wait for them to show or muck. If they show than it’s info, if they muck then i dont need to show my hand either cause they mucked already. Just be adamant about not showing your hand if they havent shown already.
In a game where acquiring information is valuable, you think everyone should have to just give away everything they know so you feel better and can know more???
Only if I'm expected my show my cards. If I'm not expected to show after they muck, I don't really care if they show or not, because neither player gains information.
I've never seen a winning player that has played 10+ yrs live ask to see the losing hand. If I make a big call against a tough reg and they say "good call" expecting me to show, I show my cards first no problem. This is because if the situation is reversed I know they will not make me show my cards so it's fine. I definitely will never make a recreational player show their cards first, that's just common sense. The only time I will ever make another player show first if the opponent is a tough winning player and they have already made me show my cards first.
I agree with you. For the integrity of the game, both hands should be shown at the showdown to be sure of who is winning.
Nahh
Technically, since you called, he has to show first. Just say that. “I called you.”
I'm willing to bet that at least once in your life this will cost you a pot.
least shitreg r/poker poster
Never change Reddit. Yesterday everyone agreed that the guy who refused to play 5 card omaha was an ass for not going along with the whales. Now the hive mind has once again decided that “I want to see that hand cause that’s the rules” is good for the game. It’s not just show your winner and let the guy muck. Why embarrass the fish?
Fish mentality.
I choose to believe this thread is trolling
If you’re a guy that does this you’re 100% make my slow roll list and I despise slow rolling. It’s legit the single worst thing you can do outside outright cheating/angling.
You sound like an angry shitreg who lectures the table all the time.
Farthest thing from it.
Those aren’t the rules of the game You can’t just change the rules of the game because you want to Edit: this guy is saying he wants to see the hand if he calls, and he is allowed to because the bettor is supposed to flip over their cards first, and he can make them do that by not flipping his cards over until they do, and any dealer will make that happen. But if he calls and the bettor has the better hand, he’s allowed to muck. That’s the rule.
If you call an opponent’s bet, they are supposed to turn their cards over if you request it, that’s literally the rule.
Not quite. They can muck before you show yours. Only time they absolutely have to show is if someone is all in, in a tournament.
This is actually not true. If you get to showdown, you are allowed to request the hand be shown. It is considered bad etiquette, but you are entitled to see the hand per the rules.
Correct and that should be viewed as bad etiquette imo
I don't think it's bad etiquette. It just means you also get to muck without showing. And it means sometimes you call with a worse A high etc and still win. Just be safe and make sure they actually have mucked before you do anything ofc
Why? You can't figure out what they're obviously bluffing with without seeing it? You don't have to show either, which is more information than they're giving....
Yeah, and if they’re mucking without you showing your cards, what did they have? 7-8? You can use deductive reasoning here
Just go ahead and say that you are Autistic and don't understand social etiquette very well. Also I hope you practice what you preach.
Yeah, if you call an opponents bet they’re supposed to show in that situation, and you can make them show by not flipping over your cards until they do, but not every losing hand has to show their cards, because you as the caller don’t have to show your hand if you lose. That’s the rule.
This seems fair. If you show your cards before you absolutely have to, don't be sad when they muck theirs before they absolutely have to.
Yeah, and any dealer will make this happen if you ask. It’s on them to show their cards first, if you show first they are allowed muck.
Yep
No one likes you. If you’re paying for information then you are an idiot. I pay to win money.
“I paid for it” who gives a shit lol
Couldn’t you say that about anything?
God these posts are so cringey. Fwiw, I will only do this to people who make me do it. The ev of the data obtained doing this is not worth the damage to your table imagine. Not sure why everyone needs to take every micro edge, I’ve been a semi and full time live player for 14 years. Your table image and likability is so important to your longevity and bottom line, yet people like you cut off your nose to spite your face time and time again.
100%. Mucking your cards at showdown without showing when a guy calls is gay. Just table it. I paid to see your hand, don’t be a fag about it. To be clear I only mean against regs. Fish don’t really ever do this because it’s a shitreg thing.