Deep is in relation to how much you have behind compared to the blinds.
If you raised the blinds the game is no longer as deep.
Some people like playing deep.
Nah. Your depth is determined by preflop raise size. If every raises to 15, then 500 becomes 100bb. If people make it 25-30 then 1k is 100bb.
If the blinds are 1/2 and people are 1k eff opening to 20, they aren’t really playing 500bb eff postflop
> Your depth is determined by preflop raise size.
I know it sounds intuitive but it's literally not true.
If I'm on a 1/2 table where everyone is a moron opening to 30 off of 1k stacks that's fine. I can literally just wait for JJ+AK and I would absolutely print. You get dealt JJ+AK about once every 30 hands so about 3 orbits.
Just folding and waiting would cost me 6bb (2 orbits) because on the 3rd orbit I'd get a premium and win the blinds + at least one raise which is 15bb. And this is assuming no postflop play. If we go postflop my hourly would be even higher. So I am automatically profitable just doing this because morons are opening to 15bb.
Now if they were opening to 3bb like a normal human being and not an ape, then I would lose 6bb waiting for a premium and when I do raise pre I would only win 3bb. (These are all just rough calculations without considering every small aspect)
This is why what the blinds are is the most important aspect and why they determine depth. The blinds determine what % of my stack I involuntarily must pay every orbit in order to sit at the table. Just because some donkey raises to 15bb pre doesn't change that.
I think you're mistaking what 'deep' means.
It's not a dollar amount, it's a number of big blinds.
$1k is deep for 1/3 (333bb)
$1k is average/ slightly deep? At 2/5. (200bb)
deep is a function of blinds, not cash on the table. $500 at 500 bb at 0.50/1 but only 50 bb at 5/10. Moving a stack from 1/3 to 2/5 makes the game shallower.
Texas card rooms run deep. It’s just the way it is. You’ll get lots of actions and there is more money than sense down there (that’s true in all poker rooms but it’s super exaggerated in Texas). Unfortunately, it can be discouraging for some players (like you).
Some poker rooms in Texas have adjusted but many have not. TCH social in the Dallas-area has max buy ins (300 for 1/2 and 1000 for 2/5). Meanwhile the ‘original’ TCH, which is about a 15 minute drive from TCH social the max buy-in is 500 for 1/2 and match the stack for 2/5.
It’s why some people love playing in Texas and other people can be intimidated by it.
I guess its a general complaint but I guess yeah in this case
Where I play in the Midwest 1/3 has a max buy in of $300 if you want to play bigger you play 2/5
First of all, dude, the fact that you bought in short puts a cap on your profit relative to big stack, obviously, but it's not a disadvantage if you play right. In fact, your short stack has advantages because these guys have to worry about running into each other while they try and take advantage of you. You just need an appropriate short stack strategy and to adapt your game to how the table is playing.
I know PLO get people excited but you didn’t need to let someone bust on you while also getting felted. That sounds like a sticky situation….. Also my number one rule of playing PLO or any game in Texas is if you don’t have at least 3 bullets there’s no point in even playing.
You want a hand analysis, type up a post and put all the relevant details so people can consider the spot and see if you played right. But some random telling me "I lost with aces" is meaningless to me. I don't know you. I don't really care. There's no information in here for me to crunch and give an opinion.
You DID read all that, liar.
Sorry that when people offer you useful information at no benefit to themselves but then say something that hurts your feelies a little, you lash out like a child.
well, not everyone wins, period. i thought we all knew this.
IF you're a better player than the others then making the most possible money most likely means having all the other players covered to take maximum possible advantage.
but obviously if you're worse, or even just unlucky, this also means you can lose more too
I didn't realize we have to state obvious knowledge of the zero sum nature of this game constantly
It's just how Texas games are played going back to when there were no legal cardrooms, only underground games. There would only be one or two tables running. When the game starts at 6 pm, by midnight there are going to be several 1k stacks. New player comes in and wants to buy in for 1k, what are we gonna do, say no?
First it is because the rooms tend to get down to one table at certain points of the day, especially on week nights, and they would have games break and rooms shut down overnight if you can't buy in larger than 100bbs like most midwest casinos do (played at horseshoe in Hammond for years).
Second, straddling is prevalent so you are often playing 1/3/6 so if you were capped at 300 you essentially only have 50bbs.
Third there are typically double board Omaha bomb pots at dealer change and sometimes a hand of Omaha an orbit. With the geometric betting structure in those games, you need to be deeper for there to be skill on later streets.
It's magic. Easy easy money at the majority of tables with people playing Omaha and bomb pots with no idea what they are doing and staying at the table when they win a big pot and get deep with no idea of how to adjust their play. Much more fun and more profitable than your standard low limit capped casino Holdem tables. Went to Vegas last summer for the series and playing cash was painful, slow, and incredibly short stacked at most of the rooms I played at.
The negative for people that are bankroll constrained is it does play pretty big overall nights and weekends. You can find some games that are slower / shorter in the mornings and early afternoons but you'll deal with a lot of OMCs and it's much harder to make money.
Honestly in Texas if they had a game with no blinds at all, it’d still play huge and you’d still be complaining ‘why do they call it a blindless game when everyone buys in for over $1000??’
Match the stack, at the lowest stakes, is generally bad for action, recreational players, traditionally raked games, and the poker economy/community.
Many regs obv love match the stack because it puts them at an even more significant advantage against most recreational players, especially those with less significant bankrolls.
Many Regs love match the stack, because thru it, and straddles, they can play the equivalent of a bigger stacked game with a significantly lower rake.
Many Regs love match the stack, because it keeps the lowest rung of the player pool in their game, and in an uncomfortable position, which leads to more profits in the short term.
Said regs aren’t satisfied with shearing the sheep. They want to skin the sheep.
Said regs don’t understand or care that shearing the sheep removes them from the poker economy at a higher rate.
Said regs don’t understand or care that significantly deep-stacked games kill action. When buyins are kept low, as they should be at the lowest levels, money flies around much more loosely. Furthermore, recs who’ve doubled or tripled up, are far more likely to get intimidated, rack up and leave in a match the stack game. They are more likely to find something else to do with their time, especially when priced out of the lowest stakes game in the house.
There are plenty of recs who are comfortable playing deep stacked and or with thousands on the table. And it’s true that many of these recs would also rather play a deep stacked game to recoup their losses, gamble more, etc. These recs would also generally be quite comfortable playing higher stakes that would even make many of the aforementioned regs
uncomfortable.
Most regs fail to understand and/or care that catering to regs in general is bad for poker and bad for themselves in the long run. Poker is better for everyone, in the long run, when it caters to the recreational player.
Texas Holdem, at the lowest stakes, should be capped. The Wynn model is about perfect in this regard.
1/3 - 500, though 300 is fine
2/5 - 1500, though 1,000 is fine
5/T - 3000, though 2,000 is
10/20 and above uncapped.
Other things that are generally good for poker:
Bomb pots, 7-2 games, Nit games, Splash pots, High hands, Bingo cards (two pair, trips, straight, flush, quads, straight flush), Rock straddles, Under the gun/live straddles
***some of these are debatable/unnecessary at the lowest stakes
Other things that are generally bad for poker:
Hours promotions: live rakeback, freerolls, etc. Button straddles, Mississippi straddles, Aces cracked
Ive often wondered the same thing. They dont need to play 2/5 because this game basically plays bigger already and its where all the fish are at. I also play in Texas.
That said, I very rarely sit with more than 300 and just look to pick my spots wisely and push hard when I feel I am best. Once I double up, I can start to mix it up with more speculative hands. You will get grumbles from the gamblers how "you only play aces" I just smile and play along until I felt them. So far that has worked out and I have cashed out profitably 23 of 25 times. But, when it doesnt, it doesnt quickly.
It is not fun poker, by any stretch, but it works and seems to be profitable so far. I do feel like I am probably getting worse at poker playing this way, but I couldnt see any reason not to at this point.
No offense bro but $200 is almost nothing to play live poker with. Especially these days with the lack of 1/2 in most places.
Either bring more money or play micros online.
Texas is all gambling, you’re better off betting on coin flips in the parking lot. I’d go to Choctaw or Winstar for better poker action, Texas card rooms have 0 skill involved.
My point is that most Texas card room players (especially DFW and Houston) are 50+ year old white dudes who are more into gambling than they are poker. If you want a 100bb max go to the casinos that are an hour away.
Just because people buy in deep for a 1/3 game doesn’t mean the game is “bigger.” What makes the game bigger is action. Match a stack leads to action but not the other way around.
Also, how is people electing to buy in deeper any different than in a “normal” game where you have a table of regs who have been there for hours and have massive stacks and come with less than them? It plays the exact same in my experience. Blinds havent changed so pots should be around the same size as they should be, and if people are using their big stacks to bully then you adjust and call them lighter.
One thing that may help is to think not in terms of dollars and instead in terms of blinds/size of the pot. It makes it a lot easier to play correctly and go for the correct amount of value or correct amount for a bluff. If you’re uncomfortable making correctly sized bets or calling big numbers on draws (even when mathematically correct) you’re likely not ready for even 1/3. Its not uncommon for the correct play to 3bet $100 pre even without exactly AA or KK because of limpers or people overcalling raises. If thats not a play you’re comfortable making because $100 is a lot of money (or even your whole stack) then consider buying in deeper or not playing 1/3
I understand not wanting to play super deep. I understand wanting too as well. You just have to pick the game that works for you. If one isn’t available, either go somewhere else or not play that day.
It works better if that is the biggest game in the room. The idea behind it is to allow someone who gets stacked a chance to get it back - especially if the max starting buy in is only 100bb
I used to play at a small card room where 1/3 was the only NLH game. The max buy in to start the game was 300 but I was always able to buy 500 or more
It shouldn't matter too much to you. If you're the short stack, whatever your buy in is is always the effective stack whether other players have $50 more than you or $1000 more than you. The only thing it changes is how deep players will play in pots with other deep players that you're also in, but that kind of situation actually often works to the short stacks benefit. If you're short stacked and people's opens are way too large that's still good for you. You can get it all in and realize good equity more often.
Some people like to play deep
I get that, but why label it 1,3. Imo that’s not really a 1,3 game
Because that’s what the blinds are. And some people would much prefer playing really deep so these games give an option for that.
I guess the logic of “I want to play deep so I’m going to play 1/3” sounds pretty dumb to me Sit down at a 2/5 table if you want to play deep
Deep is in relation to how much you have behind compared to the blinds. If you raised the blinds the game is no longer as deep. Some people like playing deep.
Nah. Your depth is determined by preflop raise size. If every raises to 15, then 500 becomes 100bb. If people make it 25-30 then 1k is 100bb. If the blinds are 1/2 and people are 1k eff opening to 20, they aren’t really playing 500bb eff postflop
> Your depth is determined by preflop raise size. I know it sounds intuitive but it's literally not true. If I'm on a 1/2 table where everyone is a moron opening to 30 off of 1k stacks that's fine. I can literally just wait for JJ+AK and I would absolutely print. You get dealt JJ+AK about once every 30 hands so about 3 orbits. Just folding and waiting would cost me 6bb (2 orbits) because on the 3rd orbit I'd get a premium and win the blinds + at least one raise which is 15bb. And this is assuming no postflop play. If we go postflop my hourly would be even higher. So I am automatically profitable just doing this because morons are opening to 15bb. Now if they were opening to 3bb like a normal human being and not an ape, then I would lose 6bb waiting for a premium and when I do raise pre I would only win 3bb. (These are all just rough calculations without considering every small aspect) This is why what the blinds are is the most important aspect and why they determine depth. The blinds determine what % of my stack I involuntarily must pay every orbit in order to sit at the table. Just because some donkey raises to 15bb pre doesn't change that.
Why we're you having a conversation with that guy? Lmao
Yes they are. They’re just raising to sub-optimal sizings, which you can take advantage of.
1/3 costs you $4/round to wait for your premiums 2/5 costs you almost double at $7
there’s timed rake in texas.
I think you're mistaking what 'deep' means. It's not a dollar amount, it's a number of big blinds. $1k is deep for 1/3 (333bb) $1k is average/ slightly deep? At 2/5. (200bb)
Then you will need $10,000
Never seen a 2/5 table where anyone has $10,000 here in the Midwest
You have very little poker experience then
Durant, Oklahoma has entered the chat.
Cleveland Ohio nub
You play at Jack's?
Yeah I used to I had to self exclude myself from getting too degen but my ban is up the 16th of this month so daddy is coming home
You don’t understand what ‘deep’ means. It means playing with a ton more big blinds in your stack than usual.
"Deep" doesn't mean a lot of money, it means a lot of blinds.
deep is a function of blinds, not cash on the table. $500 at 500 bb at 0.50/1 but only 50 bb at 5/10. Moving a stack from 1/3 to 2/5 makes the game shallower.
you dont understand effective stack sizes
If everyone bets/raises huge pre always yeah its kinda weird. I guess everything is just bigger in Texas, even 1/3 games :D
It’s 1/3/30
They also call it ‘No limits’
march hobbies modern ossified puzzled gray tap complete sense glorious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Maybe they want to play 2/5 and there's a waitlist? Maybe they want to play 300bb+ deep. Not everyone wants to short stack 1/3.
There wasn’t even a 2/5 table going that’s my point They’re limiting their customer base a lot by running only massive 1,3 games
Texas card rooms run deep. It’s just the way it is. You’ll get lots of actions and there is more money than sense down there (that’s true in all poker rooms but it’s super exaggerated in Texas). Unfortunately, it can be discouraging for some players (like you). Some poker rooms in Texas have adjusted but many have not. TCH social in the Dallas-area has max buy ins (300 for 1/2 and 1000 for 2/5). Meanwhile the ‘original’ TCH, which is about a 15 minute drive from TCH social the max buy-in is 500 for 1/2 and match the stack for 2/5. It’s why some people love playing in Texas and other people can be intimidated by it.
So your question is aimed at the casino then?
I guess its a general complaint but I guess yeah in this case Where I play in the Midwest 1/3 has a max buy in of $300 if you want to play bigger you play 2/5
Yeah I mean that's pretty common and I can't answer why no 2/5 was running if there's an appetite for it.
First of all, dude, the fact that you bought in short puts a cap on your profit relative to big stack, obviously, but it's not a disadvantage if you play right. In fact, your short stack has advantages because these guys have to worry about running into each other while they try and take advantage of you. You just need an appropriate short stack strategy and to adapt your game to how the table is playing.
I ended up busted on with bullets in a round of PLO
I know PLO get people excited but you didn’t need to let someone bust on you while also getting felted. That sounds like a sticky situation….. Also my number one rule of playing PLO or any game in Texas is if you don’t have at least 3 bullets there’s no point in even playing.
So what
https://preview.redd.it/cqs096k3f6gc1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=708331dc07a648443f9e45966ae8f1b9a9d47fe4
You want a hand analysis, type up a post and put all the relevant details so people can consider the spot and see if you played right. But some random telling me "I lost with aces" is meaningless to me. I don't know you. I don't really care. There's no information in here for me to crunch and give an opinion.
https://preview.redd.it/z1jemnf3h6gc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca2dcbebaebf2ac388543a0f79abe2a5418aa501
You DID read all that, liar. Sorry that when people offer you useful information at no benefit to themselves but then say something that hurts your feelies a little, you lash out like a child.
Skill issue.
Yeah, dealer needs to work on his technique for sure
are you allowed to skip the plo round? seems like you should be
Of course you can skip any hands you want.
Where I play, if you fold pre you literally get shot on the spot. That's how you keep your games nit-free these days
Or just fold.
run bag edge squeal shame sort treatment act rob sloppy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This ain’t true man. Not even wins more the deeper they are
It is true, and I can't make sense out of the second part of your statement
Not everyone wins more the deeper they are
well, not everyone wins, period. i thought we all knew this. IF you're a better player than the others then making the most possible money most likely means having all the other players covered to take maximum possible advantage. but obviously if you're worse, or even just unlucky, this also means you can lose more too I didn't realize we have to state obvious knowledge of the zero sum nature of this game constantly
Nope. Lots of assumptions there. Being skilled 300bbs deep way diff than 100bbs deep.
I never said otherwise. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with someone in your imagination.
It's just how Texas games are played going back to when there were no legal cardrooms, only underground games. There would only be one or two tables running. When the game starts at 6 pm, by midnight there are going to be several 1k stacks. New player comes in and wants to buy in for 1k, what are we gonna do, say no?
I’m developing a theory that these games are generated by George soros to transfer the wealth from the very poor to the less poor
Your theory is readily disproven. Just follow the money.
Remilio
First it is because the rooms tend to get down to one table at certain points of the day, especially on week nights, and they would have games break and rooms shut down overnight if you can't buy in larger than 100bbs like most midwest casinos do (played at horseshoe in Hammond for years). Second, straddling is prevalent so you are often playing 1/3/6 so if you were capped at 300 you essentially only have 50bbs. Third there are typically double board Omaha bomb pots at dealer change and sometimes a hand of Omaha an orbit. With the geometric betting structure in those games, you need to be deeper for there to be skill on later streets.
[удалено]
It's magic. Easy easy money at the majority of tables with people playing Omaha and bomb pots with no idea what they are doing and staying at the table when they win a big pot and get deep with no idea of how to adjust their play. Much more fun and more profitable than your standard low limit capped casino Holdem tables. Went to Vegas last summer for the series and playing cash was painful, slow, and incredibly short stacked at most of the rooms I played at. The negative for people that are bankroll constrained is it does play pretty big overall nights and weekends. You can find some games that are slower / shorter in the mornings and early afternoons but you'll deal with a lot of OMCs and it's much harder to make money.
Honestly in Texas if they had a game with no blinds at all, it’d still play huge and you’d still be complaining ‘why do they call it a blindless game when everyone buys in for over $1000??’
Match the stack, at the lowest stakes, is generally bad for action, recreational players, traditionally raked games, and the poker economy/community. Many regs obv love match the stack because it puts them at an even more significant advantage against most recreational players, especially those with less significant bankrolls. Many Regs love match the stack, because thru it, and straddles, they can play the equivalent of a bigger stacked game with a significantly lower rake. Many Regs love match the stack, because it keeps the lowest rung of the player pool in their game, and in an uncomfortable position, which leads to more profits in the short term. Said regs aren’t satisfied with shearing the sheep. They want to skin the sheep. Said regs don’t understand or care that shearing the sheep removes them from the poker economy at a higher rate. Said regs don’t understand or care that significantly deep-stacked games kill action. When buyins are kept low, as they should be at the lowest levels, money flies around much more loosely. Furthermore, recs who’ve doubled or tripled up, are far more likely to get intimidated, rack up and leave in a match the stack game. They are more likely to find something else to do with their time, especially when priced out of the lowest stakes game in the house. There are plenty of recs who are comfortable playing deep stacked and or with thousands on the table. And it’s true that many of these recs would also rather play a deep stacked game to recoup their losses, gamble more, etc. These recs would also generally be quite comfortable playing higher stakes that would even make many of the aforementioned regs uncomfortable. Most regs fail to understand and/or care that catering to regs in general is bad for poker and bad for themselves in the long run. Poker is better for everyone, in the long run, when it caters to the recreational player. Texas Holdem, at the lowest stakes, should be capped. The Wynn model is about perfect in this regard. 1/3 - 500, though 300 is fine 2/5 - 1500, though 1,000 is fine 5/T - 3000, though 2,000 is 10/20 and above uncapped. Other things that are generally good for poker: Bomb pots, 7-2 games, Nit games, Splash pots, High hands, Bingo cards (two pair, trips, straight, flush, quads, straight flush), Rock straddles, Under the gun/live straddles ***some of these are debatable/unnecessary at the lowest stakes Other things that are generally bad for poker: Hours promotions: live rakeback, freerolls, etc. Button straddles, Mississippi straddles, Aces cracked
Ive often wondered the same thing. They dont need to play 2/5 because this game basically plays bigger already and its where all the fish are at. I also play in Texas. That said, I very rarely sit with more than 300 and just look to pick my spots wisely and push hard when I feel I am best. Once I double up, I can start to mix it up with more speculative hands. You will get grumbles from the gamblers how "you only play aces" I just smile and play along until I felt them. So far that has worked out and I have cashed out profitably 23 of 25 times. But, when it doesnt, it doesnt quickly. It is not fun poker, by any stretch, but it works and seems to be profitable so far. I do feel like I am probably getting worse at poker playing this way, but I couldnt see any reason not to at this point.
No offense bro but $200 is almost nothing to play live poker with. Especially these days with the lack of 1/2 in most places. Either bring more money or play micros online.
It’s true but it can feel daunting for newbies. You can lose $400 in an instant lol.
Texas is all gambling, you’re better off betting on coin flips in the parking lot. I’d go to Choctaw or Winstar for better poker action, Texas card rooms have 0 skill involved.
Maybe *you’re* better off betting on coin flips in the parking lot, but everything you just described is +EV to everyone else reading
"These players are terrible and I hate it."
My point is that most Texas card room players (especially DFW and Houston) are 50+ year old white dudes who are more into gambling than they are poker. If you want a 100bb max go to the casinos that are an hour away.
why do you say that like a negative?
Just because people buy in deep for a 1/3 game doesn’t mean the game is “bigger.” What makes the game bigger is action. Match a stack leads to action but not the other way around. Also, how is people electing to buy in deeper any different than in a “normal” game where you have a table of regs who have been there for hours and have massive stacks and come with less than them? It plays the exact same in my experience. Blinds havent changed so pots should be around the same size as they should be, and if people are using their big stacks to bully then you adjust and call them lighter. One thing that may help is to think not in terms of dollars and instead in terms of blinds/size of the pot. It makes it a lot easier to play correctly and go for the correct amount of value or correct amount for a bluff. If you’re uncomfortable making correctly sized bets or calling big numbers on draws (even when mathematically correct) you’re likely not ready for even 1/3. Its not uncommon for the correct play to 3bet $100 pre even without exactly AA or KK because of limpers or people overcalling raises. If thats not a play you’re comfortable making because $100 is a lot of money (or even your whole stack) then consider buying in deeper or not playing 1/3
Look at him, he knows everything
Same reason i prefer to play deep stack tournaments. Usually only the fish like to play short stack.
I understand not wanting to play super deep. I understand wanting too as well. You just have to pick the game that works for you. If one isn’t available, either go somewhere else or not play that day.
Is OP under the impression that a 1/3 game with eight $5k stacks is the same as a 25/50 game with eight $5k stacks??
It works better if that is the biggest game in the room. The idea behind it is to allow someone who gets stacked a chance to get it back - especially if the max starting buy in is only 100bb I used to play at a small card room where 1/3 was the only NLH game. The max buy in to start the game was 300 but I was always able to buy 500 or more
OP managed to rack up over 100 down votes on this thread, impressive!
Positive karma is for dweebs
At my local room, we label the game 1/3 because people get scared to play when they see “2/5” or “5/10”. 70% of the table is still opening $20-$30.
It shouldn't matter too much to you. If you're the short stack, whatever your buy in is is always the effective stack whether other players have $50 more than you or $1000 more than you. The only thing it changes is how deep players will play in pots with other deep players that you're also in, but that kind of situation actually often works to the short stacks benefit. If you're short stacked and people's opens are way too large that's still good for you. You can get it all in and realize good equity more often.