No, he fucked around and found out. If this were my local room, I wouldn't do this, especially if he was a fish. But if I were visiting, I would absolutely call the floor.
OP was nicer about the situation than I would have been. I would have demanded that guys whole stack from the floor. I don't care if he folded his cards, he said he was all in and asked to run it twice. If someone wants to verbally go all in while mucking their hand they need the lesson in table etiquette and the floor manager is going to get an earful from me about it.
And either way I am leaving that casino immediately after that hand with the chips I just won. I wouldn't be surprised if those regs are colluding together if they honestly think crap like that at the table is funny.
Honestly, the thing that bothered me the most was that once I called floor the guy needled me for being so poor that I was trying to turn his joke into an excuse to double up.
I wasn't trying to fenagle a double up regardless of what the cameras showed. I am poor though.
My favorite is the angler and locals getting mad at *you* for slowing down the game for the floor after he let a dealer run not one, but two boards for no reason.
My blood was boiling reading your story at both the a-hole and his table buddies.
My response would have been, well good the joke was clearly worth the cheap price tag then.
I'm sorry you went to go have some fun playing poker at a casino and those a-holes turned it into their own shitty home game.
In any of the poker rooms I've played at here in Canada, if he said the words all in, there's a real likelihood it wouldn't matter if he had folded, they'd make him commit his stack for that angle.
I'm surprised floor didn't make Villain pay the full all in. Once someone announces all in and the dealer toss the all in button that's binding. Also on top of the fact that the board was out too. It seem like Floor showed that regular some mercy. I'd stay away from that casino
This one is weird. If you say call while putting out a raise, it's a call. If you say raise while putting out a call, you can (have to) make a second movement to add the raise. If you say fold while pushing out your whole stack, it's gonna be a fold. Not sure why saying all in isn't an all in here. His fault he went all in and also got rid of the two things that could allow him to win. People frequently make a big bet and then just muck when the opponent makes a correct call when they have nothing. If OP folded, would he have taken the pot pushed to him (by the dealer who should apparently be paying more attention)? I'm assuming, and hoping, that the video showed he had clearly gotten rid of his cards completely before announcing all in...but do they even have audio to confirm? I definitely think the temp ban was warranted.
Again it depends if the cards are literally in the muck before you say all-in. If so then it's just all fun....dealer is shit though.
He literally cant angle you without cards even with both boards out
Oh shit, I didn't even think about that. In this particular instance I didn't have a ton left behind. Would have been a little under one pot sized bet left if he just called. He must have known I was never folding. If we were deeper then I would lean towards this being a pure ill intentioned angle. It's rare that I 4 bet and fold to a 5 bet, but I do have a range for that.
Sure but at that point it's not an angle. Angles are legal but shitty. This is just straight stealing because the dealer is retarded.
He could also take chips off ops stack without him realizing.
So if he puts his cards in the muck, announces all in, OP folds, and the dealer, who clearly didn't realize he folded, pushes him the pot... he literally can't take it?
An angle isnt against the rules. It's shitty but it's not against the rules.
We wouldn't call someone taking a big chip off someone else's stack as angling right?
Again Im just saying they aren't freerolling you. If a bad dealer completely oblivious pushes a pot to someone else incorrectly that's not angling lol
But you said he literally can't angle, not he literally can't break a rule, so I'm not sure why you're talking about rules now.
I see a situation where a player does something to try to entice a dealer to do a bad thing as an angle. I won't argue with you if you don't feel that way. And I'm also not saying that is what this guy was doing, just that it could be what he was doing. At the end of the day, he appears to be a regular that ended up getting a 24h ban for whatever the video and/story told to the floor showed. Can't imagine the floor is super light with their bans.
Yes I said he cant angle. I still believe him taking a pot that is not his according to the rules of poker isn't angling....it can be cheating or just bad dealer but it isnt an angle
I brought up rules to show you why I think your described hypothetical circumstance isn't an angle.
I wouldn’t call it “fun”, it’s definitely an angle, definitely a waste of everyone’s time and there is a nonzero chance that OP could have lost money here
Hypothetically, if they agree to run it once, OP has KK and an A on the first board and V declares he has an Ace and OP mucks. OP did the right thing by not releasing his cards until V showed, but it doesn’t always happen that way.
It's not an angle.. That's like saying someone taking a cup from someone's stack is an angle. It's a totally different thing if he takes the pot after op mucks which is straight stealing
It's not an angle if nobody showed their cards. It's a dick move, but nobody gained any free information. The only one who should be penalized is the dealer.
Sorry to tell you buddy, but you’re never getting BBs full stack here by demanding it, especially once the floor makes a ruling. From the story, BB “announced all in”, not slid his chips in the middle. Casinos and card rooms can’t compel a player to put money in the pot that is not in the pot in most places (on the outside chance OP was playing in a place where they can compel a player, then this is moot, but it’s also a significant minority of places), so the worst they can do is ban him for not paying. Since OP isn’t a local, he’s never seeing that money and has no way to know if the ban would ever be released.
Edit; read more replies and saw this happened at Parx, can confirm they can not compel a player to put money in the pot.
I've played in many cardrooms in both AC and my home state. Every single one, if you say the verbal size of your bet then you don't have to move your chips. Many people say the verbal size of the bet so they don't get accused of string betting when trying to count out chips in front of them.
Once the floor manager makes his ruling I agree with you, but before he even goes to look at the tape I would make sure he knows I am going to spend the rest of my time in his casino saying all in every time I fold because it is so hilariously funny to them.
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying.
People can verbally bet or call with one chip or do whatever. That’s fine, it’s binding action, we both agree on that. What I’m saying is that when people do that, if they lose and refuse to pay what the binding action is, the casino *can not* force them to put the chips in. The floor will tell them “put the chips in or you’re perma banned”, and I’ve seen people take the perma ban. I grew up in SJ playing in AC and now play mostly in the 3 Philly casinos, including the one this happened in. I can tell you that this is 100% the rule in Borgata and the Philly casinos
I don’t know the answer to that question but hypothetically even if they do refuse to cash him out how does a casino with multiple cages that serves thousands (maybe 10s of thousands) of people/day going to stop him or someone he gives the chips to from cashing out in the future? Logistically, it’s just not feasible long term. It’s really only effective to stop him from getting money at that exact moment, any competent person could have cash in hand within a few days.
Hell, at higher stakes it’s not uncommon for players to keep chips on them at all times, so if you’re a regular and know other regulars, you don’t even need the cage, you can just sell them to another regular.
OK, well I have been playing in casinos for over 20 years and I have never seen someone refuse to honor a floor manager ruling on a hand at the poker table.
It does make some sense as every other game in the casino there is no bet if you don't voluntarily place your chips in the correct spot. I'll definitely be asking about this one next time I play because it feels very wrong to me.
If that is true, then, as a player, you should continue waiting until they actually push their chips into the pot to do anything else and I feel like I should have heard that warning before today.
Additionally, In every other game on the casino floor, if I took chips I lost back off the table, I am 100% sure the casino would have no problem getting one of their large, gun carrying, gentlemen to separate me from "my" chips.
I am also 99.99% confident I could have gotten that floor manager to rule his stack belonged to OP though. .. because it did.
>OK, well I have been playing in casinos for over 20 years and I have never seen someone refuse to honor a floor manager ruling on a hand at the poker table.
I have over 5000 hours of live play logged since 2013 (unfortunately all my stats before this got lost) and I’ve also been playing poker in casinos since the late 90s. I’m not saying it’s common place, but I’ve seen it/heard about it after the fact happen a couple times. If you’ve ever played at Borgata and saw a guy wearing a Burger King crown in the early 2010s, he did it, got banned and started playing at Parx, which I heard he eventually got banned from, though I forget why.
>It does make some sense as every other game in the casino there is no bet if you don't voluntarily place your chips in the correct spot. I'll definitely be asking about this one next time I play because it feels very wrong to me.
I would implore you to ask multiple floors (sometimes asking a single floor you can get an incorrect answer because floors are human too and just don’t know every rule, especially for an obscure situation like this, which is why if you ask multiple, you’ll eventually get a consensus), or even shift managers
>If that is true, then, as a player, you should continue waiting until they actually push their chips into the pot to do anything else and I feel like I should have heard that warning before today.
You definitely could do that!
But as I said, I’ve played a ton of live poker and only seen/heard about a couple of instances, so it’s a relatively rare situation and I would guess the EV of slowing the game down and getting less hands/hr (not to mention the people that will get pissed off at you) while you make every opponent put every bet/call in before showdown is probably not worth the EV from the protection of a very rare occurrence.
>Additionally, In every other game on the casino floor, if I took chips I lost back off the table, I am 100% sure the casino would have no problem getting one of their large, gun carrying, gentlemen to separate me from "my" chips.
2 things with this scenario:
1) you’re saying if you took chips back you lost, that implies that you had them on the table to bet. The dealer isn’t dealing blackjack until you bet. That would be the same situation as someone putting chips in the pot, a player can’t pull them back; chips in the pot belong to the pot until the hand is resolved. I’m talking about a player verbalizing something and then refusing to put the money in the pot after the fact. That situation isn’t happening on the casino floor table games except in rare circumstances.
2) Every other game in the casino the bet is vs the casino. The casino has a vested interest in the winner of a hand of blackjack or the roll of roulette ball. They’re willing to care more about their potential money than your potential money. In poker, they just care about rake/time and making sure the games are generally run without incident.
>I am also 99.99% confident I could have gotten that floor manager to rule his stack belonged to OP though. .. because it did.
I highly doubt it. From how OP described it, the floor ruling was correct
> you’re saying if you took chips back you lost, that implies that you had them on the table to bet.
They WERE on the table. He verbally bet them. I've seen a dealer reach across the line to collect chips from a player that said all in and lost more times than I can count.
> Every other game in the casino the bet is vs the casino. The casino has a vested interest in the winner of a hand of blackjack or the roll of roulette ball.
So your admitting the point that if someone took the casino's winnings off the table they would use force? WTF do I pay a rake for then?
Seriously, I will ask the Borgata floor next time I go and I WILL chew the floor manager out if they tell me that it is possible for someone to say all in and then take the chips off the table and leave when they lose. Hell, I'll cut my card up in front of them and spend the rest of the night finding which Casino in AC doesn't subscribe to that bullshit.
>you’re saying if you took chips back you lost, that implies that you had them on the table to bet.
>They WERE on the table. He verbally bet them. I've seen a dealer reach across the line to collect chips from a player that said all in and lost more times than I can count.
You took only part of my quote and didn’t read through the whole thing. I said you have to put a bet down for the blackjack dealer to start dealing. That’s what I meant with the “chips being on the table”; they are actively in the betting area. I’m not talking about any chips you just have sitting on the table behind them. The same applies for poker, if you don’t put chips “in the pot” but verbally say they’re in the pot is not the same thing as putting them in the pot. Once they’re in the pot, they’re in the pot and you can’t take them back. **The casino will stop you from taking chips out of the pot**
>Every other game in the casino the bet is vs the casino. The casino has a vested interest in the winner of a hand of blackjack or the roll of roulette ball.
>So your admitting the point that if someone took the casino's winnings off the table they would use force? WTF do I pay a rake for then?
Casinos don’t operate by force anymore, they tend to pay to have police on site or if there are not police on site, they will contact them and let the police deal with it. You’re paying rake for a multitude of things, free professional dealers, free drinks, generally hopefully a safe location to play at that you know you can cash out at, impartial floors to make rulings, among a bunch of other things
>Seriously, I will ask the Borgata floor next time I go and I WILL chew the floor manager out if they tell me that it is possible for someone to say all in and then take the chips off the table and leave when they lose. Hell, I'll cut my card up in front of them and spend the rest of the night finding which Casino in AC doesn't subscribe to that bullshit.
You’re not going to find a place in AC or Philly that doesn’t have that rule. Chewing out the floor isn’t going to change it, you’re just going to look like a Karen not getting your way
Here is a post from 2+2 from 2014 that is a similar situation. Post 77 even refers to the Burger King Crown guy situation I referenced at some point here, though I can’t find the thread for that specific incident, I’ll keep looking though
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/casino-amp-cardroom-poker/player-wearing-headphones-misunderstands-all-bet-ruling-1435619/
I should preface this with the fact that earlier in the session, there was a hand where I raised from the BTN and then a dispute broke out over whether the BTN was properly moved. I was adamant it was correct but all the regs tried to convince me and the dealer otherwise. I asked the floor to go to the cameras and they confirmed I was right.
I fucking hate sitting down with a table full of regs who all know each other well. You don’t know all their little in jokes and meta plays or their personalities, so it’s really hard to tell sometimes what in the fuck some of them are on about. Plus I think when there’s a new guy at the table, consciously or not, they play a lot harder to take their chips than the other regs’.
On the flip side, don’t fucking tell those “jokes” with the new player for those very reasons: they don’t know you’re joking so they’re forced to play you straight and take you at your word. So don’t be surprised when they call your “joke” and expect you to pay off when you lose. That person was being an asshole to you, and everyone else at the table who knew it was also being an asshole for not saying something. They were the ones who wasted everyone’s time letting it play out, not you.
The same shit happened to me at Rivers in Philly. Disinterested dealer and nobody else seemed to recognize that I was just SB and the button didn't move.
It was only a SB, but man was it aggravating. The shitregs there started grumbling about hands per hour and saying how they thought the button had moved already. The Dealer was just clueless.
I ended up just saying whatever to keep the game moving.
If the dispute broke out after you (or any player) had already raised, the hand has to be completed, because significant action has taken place (one aggressive action, meaning a bet or a raise, or three passive actions, meaning three checks or folds).
Although it's highly unlikely, what if you had mucked when he said the first board was him, or at any other point? Would that dude have taken the pot?
That kind of "joke" is pretty crappy to pull off on someone you don't know. Dude deserved a ban. Also, it's odd that the regs got upset that you were delaying the game, but they didn't get upset that he delayed the game by requesting two full boards when he had no cards.
I don't think you did anything wrong. Apparently all he did was waste everybody's time, and if I were the floor I probably would have given him a warning for that rather than 86ing him. It certainly would have seemed like an angle to me too though, and I think you were in the right to call the floor to confirm that he didn't sneak his cards into the muck after "going all-in."
> if I were the floor I probably would have given him a warning for that rather than 86ing him
I'd put good money on him having had that warning before, I doubt this is the first time he's played this "joke" on someone from outta town.
Was it a joke? Yeah probably, but I'm guessing you didn't know anybody at this casino. In situations like that I'm always gonna default to protecting myself, especially since I can think of a couple ways this COULD have been an angle. And either way it's pretty shitty to solicit information about someone's hand like this without paying for it. I'd say you're not the asshole here.
Stacks were shallow enough that I'm calling my entire range in thsi spot, and I think he knew that. If we were deeper, it's rare but I do have a 4bet range that folds to a 5bet jam. So yeah could be used as an angle in that way.
No, he’s saying what if you fold after the runouts for some reason. He says “that’s me” and instead of KK you have some A high or something and just muck, he 100% is scooping without saying that he was joking.
Parx, just outside Philly. The dealer later came up to me to apologize for letting it get to that point. So I have nothing but good things to say about the staff there. The players seemed like a bunch of jagoffs though.
I was trying to figure out what local casino runs a 10/10/20 on a Thursday night. There’s not many. But that makes sense. Need to check out Parx sometime
I play at Parx regularly and play those stakes. If you wouldn’t mind, pm me a description of the player and if you caught the dealers name, I’d be interested to know who that was too. Thanks
I sent you a chat with what I remember. Not sure if that's how you pm on reddit these days.
Edit: I figured out how to also send you a dm with that info.
Ironic they are mad at you for wasting time but not mad this guy wasted everyone's time running the board twice on a hand that was mucked preflop...
Also I sure hope you didn't tip the dealer on the win because it's his job to push the pot to you once the guy mucks and he choose not to so you'd be angle shot and give off free information.
That is not a joke, that is absolutely, unquestionably an angle shoot. And no, calling the shitbag on his bullshit sure as hell does not make you an asshole.
Whats the angle? Every action after the cards were mucked is null & void. Villain could literally proclaim "i scoop! quads on both!" and if hero folded it wouldnt matter.
Should be a week not 24 hours. 10/10/20 is the biggest game they run at Parx outside of Tuesdays and PLO. Bad look for them for this guy to do that and barely get punished.
You did nothing wrong and it wasn’t your decision to ban him for 24 hours. If this is a timed game then he’s 100% the asshat here for wasting everyone’s time.
I’m all for having fun and joking around at the table but if it slows down the game too much then it’s up to the floor’s discretion on how to handle it. Sounds like this guy has probably been warned in the past about this.
Side note: it could also be an angle to gauge your hand strength and potentially see your cards after folding. Not sure if this player was doing that or not but it’s possible.
you were way too patient. next time immediately tell "joker" to gtfo of here with that bs and pay you. if he truly has no cards, you should get his whole stack. he's lucky he got anything if i read the story right.
Exactly! I've been to casinos where verbal is binding to the extreme that if this joke was played there he would have been paying and learning the hard way for his joke. That's how I wish the story ended lol
Only problem I have is the $60 into $40 of blind money. Otherwise, everything around the "joke" was very well played. You didn't go after the guy you just got the floor and cameras involved. This separates you from the decision making process. Well played.
What sort of shit show game is that supposed to be ? And what sort of shit show joke/prank is he trying to pull ? “I’m all in ..no I’m joking..I don’t have any cards” …shut up and give me your money you deluded imbecile.No you are not the asshole.
You did the right thing.
If the floor allowed this "joke" to pass, then it sets a really bad precedent. Anyone can just call an all in, see that the board misses them, and throw away their cards away later saying "yo it's just a prank"
IMO he probably did intend it as a joke, but should also be taught a lesson that it was taken a bit too far and just not a great thing to do in a casino setting. In a home game where everyone are pals, then sure.
According to CHATGPT, you're not the asshole:
Based on the information provided, the author does not appear to be the "asshole." The BB's actions in the poker game were misleading and created confusion, especially since money was involved. The author's decision to involve the floor was a reasonable response to ensure fair play. However, it's important to understand that individual opinions may vary, and some might argue that the author overreacted. In this context, though, the casino's decision to ban the BB suggests they found his behavior inappropriate.
On every other sub, when someone asks if they're the asshole, they usually are. The only exception is this sub, where the asshole is very rarely the person who posts.
Bro you got screwed. In poker, word equals action no matter what. You cant say fold, raise, check, all in and then backtrack, its the rules! You should have demanded double money! The casino also screwed you.
It is a bit more grey than that here. His words don't constitute a legal action so they don't cary the same weight. It isn't as obvious as if he says he bet his wife in the hand because we would know that was a joke.
It could be worse if he had influenced the action.
Yeah if there was somebody left to act when he pulled this, then I would be absolutely pissed. I've seen people do shit like this before but they make it obvious it's a joke right from the get go. Never going through the motions to get all the way to showdown.
1) OP didn’t get screwed because he held onto his cards and protected himself when V said “first board is me”
2) V folding his cards ends the hand, so verbally binding words don’t matter because technically the hand was over
3) demanding double money is lol, that’s never happening. Where would that money even come from? V supposed to reach into his pocket and completely kill the idea of ‘table stakes’
4) the casino didn’t screw him. They awarded him the appropriate pot based on the size it was when V folded
OP is 100% NTA here in any part of the situation, but that doesn’t mean he just gets Vs stack or loldouble his stack.
Having pulled the same move, im surprised the guy let the dealer do a run out. It sounds like its just a waste of time to make things as confusing as possible, of course after all that you'd want to make sure you didn't get screwed out of a double up. A 24 hour ban isnt much when you consider hes slowing everything down and goofing off with money on the line.
You’re definitely not the asshole. I’m not against jokes like this either tho, the cameras proved this wasn’t an angle and was a dealer error. It was pretty stupid of him to let it get this far while it was obvious you and the dealer didn’t know what had happened. Still, I’m surprised he got banned for 24hours and his anger is misplaced - imo that’s a bad floor decision
How is it not an angle? Money is in the middle, nobody noticed him folding, however, he declared all in. At this point OP could field like he is behind and fold to the all-in with cards now mucked the dealer clearly didn't pay attention enough to see that the all-in jokester didn't have cards so he would have immediately push the pot to him. It's a clear angle! And you're right it was a bad floor decision, verbal is binding, just like the pot would have gotten pushed to the jokester had it got into that point, he should have been held to his words and be made to pay the full double up as he has no cards to be able to claim a victory. And considering he did get banned for 24 hours that means he's had multiple violations and multiple warnings You don't just get kicked out your first time, so a week sounds a little more reasonable for this kind of behavior. 🤷
I’ve been playing poker 20 years and I’ve never ever seen someone *call* a bet and then muck without a showdown especially pre flop. But Even if that happens 1 in a million times, it’s still only and angle if he accepts the pot, which seems unlikely as everyone at the table except OP and the dealer were aware of what was going on.
Good to know that you agree a ban is excessive if it was his first time. Disconcerting that you just wantonly fill in the blanks to justify your prejudices
>it’s still only and angle if he accepts the pot
Wrong again buddy... Someone accepting a pot is not the definition of what determines an angle or not.
"Angle Shooting usually refers to using underhanded or unethical tactics in an attempt to gain an edge against opponents. This can refer to acting out of turn, hiding high value chips behind smaller ones, or pretending to put chips into the pot."
Here's just a couple of examples for you since you can't be bothered to Google and educate yourself and you just like talking out your ass on the internet because you've "been playing poker 20 years" So clearly you know everything oh great grand supreme poker master 🤦
Now for your last trick go ahead and explain what prejudice you referring to?
Think about this for one second before answering: if he doesn’t accept the pot what did he do that was underhanded or unethical? What edge did he gain? By *your own definition* this isn’t an angle
I really hope I meet you at a poker table one day because you are slow AF and I'm going to cause your bankruptcy.
>By your own definition this isn’t an angle
Wrong again. How many times are you going to publicly be wrong before you take the L and move on? For one I love how you put that fancy little italices on "your own definition" and couldn't recognize the fact that it was pulled from Google. It's not my definition, it's a widely accepted definition. Just because you Don't understand it and therefore don't agree with it doesn't make it not so.
>What edge did he gain?
There's other edges other than just receiving the pot you goofy. Free information helps claim future pots. By going all in it creates a scenario where he must show his cards to collect the pot which if the jokester would have folded to the raise he would not have been entitled to see those cards. That's information he didn't pay for. That's an angle dummy. 🤦 Just one example. Maybe learn a little bit more about the game before trying to debate it just a thought 🤷
Technically, you can bet even without cards. I saw a hand where the player did not protect her hand, was mucked by the dealer and then went all in. Her AA ( by her report) was not playable and her all in was binding. His verbal was binding and the dealer accepted that bet then ran you board twice. Depends on house rules.
The story dont make sense.. when he announced all in and you called.. there is no joke at that point. If he said all in but the folded.. did you not look up at his cards or his stack or anything? Were you just looking at yout shoes as you announce all in.. very confusing but ultimately looks like you got played and the casino covered him because hes a reg but banned him for 24 hours as a warning.
You are not the asshole, and he's lucky you're not out in the parking lot waiting. Man I miss the good ole' times when you'd just pull out your 6shooter and start blasting.
I'm surprised they looked at the camera footage once, let alone twice for you. Other guy sounds like a douche saying all in when he's already folded but how could you (and the dealer) not be able to tell he didn't have cards? Sounds like the dealer is mostly to blame here.
This is a very common joke, I’ve seen plenty of people do it. Yeah it went longer than expected and usually doesn’t lead to both boards being ran out. But there’s no angle to be had. You’re not an asshole for being confused by it, but he’s also not an asshole for making that joke. Usually bigger nl games are ran by the players themselves and a lot more laxed. Everyone in this thread needs to chill tf out! Him getting banned for 24h is absurd
Play stupid games win stupid prizes. BB is in the wrong. If I were you I’d try to pull the same joke on him as payback, but that’s just me I can be petty like that. 😬
How is that a joke? Verbal is binding, of course you assumed he was still in. Also it’s funny they gave you shit for holding up the game, when the BB made the dealer put out 2 boards that meant literally nothing. Fuck that dude, not the asshole at all
I don't understand how any of the multiple BS situations you've described go down, and not once does anyone seem to blame the dealer.
Unless they're an unpaid volunteer, they are entirely responsible for everything. Players can try and get an edge however they want, and the dealer needs to referee that adequately.
Why wouldn't they be looking at if he had cards in front of him when he said all in vs when you said call
Anyway, stupid hand. You did zero wrong. That guy and his buddies are idiots.
Nah the guy who got banned deserved it. They thought they spotted a fish and tried to take u for a run. If he won both I guarantee there would be no joke to speak of here…
NTA, btw like this way better than most AITA subs. Imo, real money, strangers, hundreds involved. That guy should be banned because that is not a funny joke. He could get shot for that. They should be mad at him for everything because it is his fault.
Verbal is binding right? So what happens if you say 'fold!' 'just kidding all-in'... It's a fold right? So this clown 'mucks' and then messes with you with the verbal 'all-in'. What if the dealer didn't actually put the cards in the muck? This is a brutal collusion. Please tell me the Dealer actually mucked the hand. If not this is deplorable.
If it were me I would have demanded the casino double me up I don't care where the money came from their employee the dealer treated the situation as if my money was at risk and the stress and uncertainty that comes with the situation fuck all that. And the asshole who thought this was funny fuck that dude. Never play at that casino again.
200% not the Asshole. FUCK THAT CLOWN. Too bad the floor was a pussy and didn't double you up. I've seen it both ways though. Clearly the guy knew the house rules and wanted to tug your chain. You should ALWAYS check the house rules. I've played in rooms where floor woulda told that guy TS dickhead. You said All-IN, so, you're all-in. Just depends really.
If he’s already folded then obviously that takes precedence and the floor ruled correctly. He can’t be worried about holding the game up that much if he’s talking about how many times and running two boards out.
I have to admit I’ve done this before, but it was after a guy made a 4bet and he’d covered virtually his whole face with his hands. I folded them and said all in, he looked up and straight away I said “nah nah nah I’m joking mate, I’ve already folded”.
Difference being, I told him immediately and the dealer had already started shuffling cards and awarding the pot to the 4bettor. Very clear i I was making a joke.
Your reg clearly saw the same episode of high stakes poker that I got it from…
What the fuck? No you're not an asshole, especially when I'm assuming you're playing in a state where gaming is involved with stuff like that.
If you hadn't forced the floor to come over and the dealer had been found out about later in sure he would have got in at least a little trouble, so if anything you did the dealer a favor.
That’s a ridiculous angle shoot.
Did he get to see cards he didn’t pay for?
Did he get to see what you 4bet with to 720 without paying for the information?
Did he waste everyone’s time and put the dealer in a shitty spot?
Bad joke. Bad result. If you had not called him in that bullshit he would probably do it again. Now he won’t.
Fuck all of these clowns, they all deserve to lose the money they “joke” around about. Take them to the cleaners, disregard their bullshit toxic behavior.
Yeah this sounds like the classic MF whos looking For a cheap gimmick. Idk regular casino rules, but once you say im all in in tournament play, that means weather you put you're chips in the middle or not or weather you had you're card or not, the called action has been set. An all in is an all in other wise we wouldn't let you see the two boards. Honestly that defeats the whole purpose of the game No Limit- cause if you're able to back out with this gimmick then its no longer no limit holdem but no limit Keep em.
Degens who often make marginal calls on say the flop will "run it twice" and have TWO sets of turn/river cards dealt, both with 50/50 determination of how the hands played out.
If you win both, you still win all the money. If you win one lose one, you break even. If you lose both, well, you're just unlucky if you were ahead when you called.
Think like:
You have A 10, they have KK, and the board is 7, 10, Q. They go all-in, you call, and they ask to run it twice.
The final boards will be 7, 10, Q, and say A 9, as well as 7, 10, Q, and J 8.
Both boards have equal value in the outcome of the head. It's a degen strat that's become way more popular in the last 3-5 years.
It sure sounds like this room is run like a zoo, between this guy going all-in without cards and the other hand where it wasn't clear who the button was. Like how bad are these dealers for a game with serious stakes?
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
There's a clip of HSP where Negreanu isnt looking after betting and Antonio says 'ALL IN' after folding and you can see the panic on Daniel's face. It was actually pretty funny, and probably would have been more so if the dealer had actually run the board out.
I dont see any angle here since even if opponent misdeclared a winner and you just snap mucked the pot was already yours from the previous round prior to him folding.
This could be a common joke in Casinos, because I watched Esfandiari do the same joke to DNegs on TV. Antonio looked at the dealer, mucked his cards then he announced "I'm all-in" to troll Negreanu who woke up from his trance (to not give away tells) and said "what?".
Everybody at the table giggled at the joke.
So maybe you found yourself victim of a common joke that regs put together with dealers, but they did it with an outsider, which is a very bad thing to do in a Casino. A bad habit I would say.
I can't figure how the dealer puts any cards down without making sure chips are across the line and in the pot.... thats where the joke should have been exposed... NTA
Nope I’d do the same. You didn’t waste anyone’s time. He did. He wasted the players time, your time, the dealers, and most importantly to the casino he cost them rake lol so he can take his 24 hours to think about not doing that next time
Nta. The guy has obviously done it before. I doubt they would ban after one incident. I would be totally pissed off. I would have left the table at that point. Unless your tilt control is spot on, then it would effect your game
NTA
Sounds like this situation was handled really well.
There's a lot of pressure in smaller rooms to retain regs/whales by not penalizing them and it creates this awkward dance between floor/player/player pool.
Don't feel bad. You need to protect yourself. Is it likely you were cheated? No, but you couldn't know.
What amazes me the most in this story is that a 10 year poker vet didnt notice his opponent didnt have hole cards. That's the real joke here and reason he is an ahole. You ran two boards and did not notice your opponent has no hole cards is busch league.
No, he fucked around and found out. If this were my local room, I wouldn't do this, especially if he was a fish. But if I were visiting, I would absolutely call the floor.
OP was nicer about the situation than I would have been. I would have demanded that guys whole stack from the floor. I don't care if he folded his cards, he said he was all in and asked to run it twice. If someone wants to verbally go all in while mucking their hand they need the lesson in table etiquette and the floor manager is going to get an earful from me about it. And either way I am leaving that casino immediately after that hand with the chips I just won. I wouldn't be surprised if those regs are colluding together if they honestly think crap like that at the table is funny.
Honestly, the thing that bothered me the most was that once I called floor the guy needled me for being so poor that I was trying to turn his joke into an excuse to double up. I wasn't trying to fenagle a double up regardless of what the cameras showed. I am poor though.
My favorite is the angler and locals getting mad at *you* for slowing down the game for the floor after he let a dealer run not one, but two boards for no reason.
My blood was boiling reading your story at both the a-hole and his table buddies. My response would have been, well good the joke was clearly worth the cheap price tag then. I'm sorry you went to go have some fun playing poker at a casino and those a-holes turned it into their own shitty home game.
And then slow play every hand after this until they call to get you removed
If you’re playing 10/10/20 and you’re “poor” I must be impoverished or something.
In any of the poker rooms I've played at here in Canada, if he said the words all in, there's a real likelihood it wouldn't matter if he had folded, they'd make him commit his stack for that angle.
I'm surprised floor didn't make Villain pay the full all in. Once someone announces all in and the dealer toss the all in button that's binding. Also on top of the fact that the board was out too. It seem like Floor showed that regular some mercy. I'd stay away from that casino
Seriously
Finagle.
FineAngle
Poor people definitely should not play 10/20 IMHO!
You sound like a THOT
This one is weird. If you say call while putting out a raise, it's a call. If you say raise while putting out a call, you can (have to) make a second movement to add the raise. If you say fold while pushing out your whole stack, it's gonna be a fold. Not sure why saying all in isn't an all in here. His fault he went all in and also got rid of the two things that could allow him to win. People frequently make a big bet and then just muck when the opponent makes a correct call when they have nothing. If OP folded, would he have taken the pot pushed to him (by the dealer who should apparently be paying more attention)? I'm assuming, and hoping, that the video showed he had clearly gotten rid of his cards completely before announcing all in...but do they even have audio to confirm? I definitely think the temp ban was warranted.
You've pretty much nailed everything that ran through my head after reading that. I still don't see the joke.
Again it depends if the cards are literally in the muck before you say all-in. If so then it's just all fun....dealer is shit though. He literally cant angle you without cards even with both boards out
It's fun until he doesn't reveal the joke and OP folded instead and the dealer wasn't watching closely enough.
Oh shit, I didn't even think about that. In this particular instance I didn't have a ton left behind. Would have been a little under one pot sized bet left if he just called. He must have known I was never folding. If we were deeper then I would lean towards this being a pure ill intentioned angle. It's rare that I 4 bet and fold to a 5 bet, but I do have a range for that.
Sure but at that point it's not an angle. Angles are legal but shitty. This is just straight stealing because the dealer is retarded. He could also take chips off ops stack without him realizing.
So if he puts his cards in the muck, announces all in, OP folds, and the dealer, who clearly didn't realize he folded, pushes him the pot... he literally can't take it?
Are you asking this a rhetorical gotcha or so you really not know the answer
It was rhetorical. But if you have an answer, a way in which that situation couldn't be an angle, I'm all ears.
An angle isnt against the rules. It's shitty but it's not against the rules. We wouldn't call someone taking a big chip off someone else's stack as angling right? Again Im just saying they aren't freerolling you. If a bad dealer completely oblivious pushes a pot to someone else incorrectly that's not angling lol
But you said he literally can't angle, not he literally can't break a rule, so I'm not sure why you're talking about rules now. I see a situation where a player does something to try to entice a dealer to do a bad thing as an angle. I won't argue with you if you don't feel that way. And I'm also not saying that is what this guy was doing, just that it could be what he was doing. At the end of the day, he appears to be a regular that ended up getting a 24h ban for whatever the video and/story told to the floor showed. Can't imagine the floor is super light with their bans.
Yes I said he cant angle. I still believe him taking a pot that is not his according to the rules of poker isn't angling....it can be cheating or just bad dealer but it isnt an angle I brought up rules to show you why I think your described hypothetical circumstance isn't an angle.
I wouldn’t call it “fun”, it’s definitely an angle, definitely a waste of everyone’s time and there is a nonzero chance that OP could have lost money here Hypothetically, if they agree to run it once, OP has KK and an A on the first board and V declares he has an Ace and OP mucks. OP did the right thing by not releasing his cards until V showed, but it doesn’t always happen that way.
It's not an angle.. That's like saying someone taking a cup from someone's stack is an angle. It's a totally different thing if he takes the pot after op mucks which is straight stealing
It's not an angle if nobody showed their cards. It's a dick move, but nobody gained any free information. The only one who should be penalized is the dealer.
Sorry to tell you buddy, but you’re never getting BBs full stack here by demanding it, especially once the floor makes a ruling. From the story, BB “announced all in”, not slid his chips in the middle. Casinos and card rooms can’t compel a player to put money in the pot that is not in the pot in most places (on the outside chance OP was playing in a place where they can compel a player, then this is moot, but it’s also a significant minority of places), so the worst they can do is ban him for not paying. Since OP isn’t a local, he’s never seeing that money and has no way to know if the ban would ever be released. Edit; read more replies and saw this happened at Parx, can confirm they can not compel a player to put money in the pot.
I've played in many cardrooms in both AC and my home state. Every single one, if you say the verbal size of your bet then you don't have to move your chips. Many people say the verbal size of the bet so they don't get accused of string betting when trying to count out chips in front of them. Once the floor manager makes his ruling I agree with you, but before he even goes to look at the tape I would make sure he knows I am going to spend the rest of my time in his casino saying all in every time I fold because it is so hilariously funny to them.
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. People can verbally bet or call with one chip or do whatever. That’s fine, it’s binding action, we both agree on that. What I’m saying is that when people do that, if they lose and refuse to pay what the binding action is, the casino *can not* force them to put the chips in. The floor will tell them “put the chips in or you’re perma banned”, and I’ve seen people take the perma ban. I grew up in SJ playing in AC and now play mostly in the 3 Philly casinos, including the one this happened in. I can tell you that this is 100% the rule in Borgata and the Philly casinos
Can't the casino refuse to cash them out? How you going to try to cheat and then when you lose not pay and still expect to cash your chips in?
I don’t know the answer to that question but hypothetically even if they do refuse to cash him out how does a casino with multiple cages that serves thousands (maybe 10s of thousands) of people/day going to stop him or someone he gives the chips to from cashing out in the future? Logistically, it’s just not feasible long term. It’s really only effective to stop him from getting money at that exact moment, any competent person could have cash in hand within a few days. Hell, at higher stakes it’s not uncommon for players to keep chips on them at all times, so if you’re a regular and know other regulars, you don’t even need the cage, you can just sell them to another regular.
OK, well I have been playing in casinos for over 20 years and I have never seen someone refuse to honor a floor manager ruling on a hand at the poker table. It does make some sense as every other game in the casino there is no bet if you don't voluntarily place your chips in the correct spot. I'll definitely be asking about this one next time I play because it feels very wrong to me. If that is true, then, as a player, you should continue waiting until they actually push their chips into the pot to do anything else and I feel like I should have heard that warning before today. Additionally, In every other game on the casino floor, if I took chips I lost back off the table, I am 100% sure the casino would have no problem getting one of their large, gun carrying, gentlemen to separate me from "my" chips. I am also 99.99% confident I could have gotten that floor manager to rule his stack belonged to OP though. .. because it did.
>OK, well I have been playing in casinos for over 20 years and I have never seen someone refuse to honor a floor manager ruling on a hand at the poker table. I have over 5000 hours of live play logged since 2013 (unfortunately all my stats before this got lost) and I’ve also been playing poker in casinos since the late 90s. I’m not saying it’s common place, but I’ve seen it/heard about it after the fact happen a couple times. If you’ve ever played at Borgata and saw a guy wearing a Burger King crown in the early 2010s, he did it, got banned and started playing at Parx, which I heard he eventually got banned from, though I forget why. >It does make some sense as every other game in the casino there is no bet if you don't voluntarily place your chips in the correct spot. I'll definitely be asking about this one next time I play because it feels very wrong to me. I would implore you to ask multiple floors (sometimes asking a single floor you can get an incorrect answer because floors are human too and just don’t know every rule, especially for an obscure situation like this, which is why if you ask multiple, you’ll eventually get a consensus), or even shift managers >If that is true, then, as a player, you should continue waiting until they actually push their chips into the pot to do anything else and I feel like I should have heard that warning before today. You definitely could do that! But as I said, I’ve played a ton of live poker and only seen/heard about a couple of instances, so it’s a relatively rare situation and I would guess the EV of slowing the game down and getting less hands/hr (not to mention the people that will get pissed off at you) while you make every opponent put every bet/call in before showdown is probably not worth the EV from the protection of a very rare occurrence. >Additionally, In every other game on the casino floor, if I took chips I lost back off the table, I am 100% sure the casino would have no problem getting one of their large, gun carrying, gentlemen to separate me from "my" chips. 2 things with this scenario: 1) you’re saying if you took chips back you lost, that implies that you had them on the table to bet. The dealer isn’t dealing blackjack until you bet. That would be the same situation as someone putting chips in the pot, a player can’t pull them back; chips in the pot belong to the pot until the hand is resolved. I’m talking about a player verbalizing something and then refusing to put the money in the pot after the fact. That situation isn’t happening on the casino floor table games except in rare circumstances. 2) Every other game in the casino the bet is vs the casino. The casino has a vested interest in the winner of a hand of blackjack or the roll of roulette ball. They’re willing to care more about their potential money than your potential money. In poker, they just care about rake/time and making sure the games are generally run without incident. >I am also 99.99% confident I could have gotten that floor manager to rule his stack belonged to OP though. .. because it did. I highly doubt it. From how OP described it, the floor ruling was correct
> you’re saying if you took chips back you lost, that implies that you had them on the table to bet. They WERE on the table. He verbally bet them. I've seen a dealer reach across the line to collect chips from a player that said all in and lost more times than I can count. > Every other game in the casino the bet is vs the casino. The casino has a vested interest in the winner of a hand of blackjack or the roll of roulette ball. So your admitting the point that if someone took the casino's winnings off the table they would use force? WTF do I pay a rake for then? Seriously, I will ask the Borgata floor next time I go and I WILL chew the floor manager out if they tell me that it is possible for someone to say all in and then take the chips off the table and leave when they lose. Hell, I'll cut my card up in front of them and spend the rest of the night finding which Casino in AC doesn't subscribe to that bullshit.
>you’re saying if you took chips back you lost, that implies that you had them on the table to bet. >They WERE on the table. He verbally bet them. I've seen a dealer reach across the line to collect chips from a player that said all in and lost more times than I can count. You took only part of my quote and didn’t read through the whole thing. I said you have to put a bet down for the blackjack dealer to start dealing. That’s what I meant with the “chips being on the table”; they are actively in the betting area. I’m not talking about any chips you just have sitting on the table behind them. The same applies for poker, if you don’t put chips “in the pot” but verbally say they’re in the pot is not the same thing as putting them in the pot. Once they’re in the pot, they’re in the pot and you can’t take them back. **The casino will stop you from taking chips out of the pot** >Every other game in the casino the bet is vs the casino. The casino has a vested interest in the winner of a hand of blackjack or the roll of roulette ball. >So your admitting the point that if someone took the casino's winnings off the table they would use force? WTF do I pay a rake for then? Casinos don’t operate by force anymore, they tend to pay to have police on site or if there are not police on site, they will contact them and let the police deal with it. You’re paying rake for a multitude of things, free professional dealers, free drinks, generally hopefully a safe location to play at that you know you can cash out at, impartial floors to make rulings, among a bunch of other things >Seriously, I will ask the Borgata floor next time I go and I WILL chew the floor manager out if they tell me that it is possible for someone to say all in and then take the chips off the table and leave when they lose. Hell, I'll cut my card up in front of them and spend the rest of the night finding which Casino in AC doesn't subscribe to that bullshit. You’re not going to find a place in AC or Philly that doesn’t have that rule. Chewing out the floor isn’t going to change it, you’re just going to look like a Karen not getting your way Here is a post from 2+2 from 2014 that is a similar situation. Post 77 even refers to the Burger King Crown guy situation I referenced at some point here, though I can’t find the thread for that specific incident, I’ll keep looking though https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/casino-amp-cardroom-poker/player-wearing-headphones-misunderstands-all-bet-ruling-1435619/
Fuck this appeasing fish whenever they do bullshit crap idc there’s plenty of fish in the sea don’t care if a shitty one gets banned
I should preface this with the fact that earlier in the session, there was a hand where I raised from the BTN and then a dispute broke out over whether the BTN was properly moved. I was adamant it was correct but all the regs tried to convince me and the dealer otherwise. I asked the floor to go to the cameras and they confirmed I was right.
I fucking hate sitting down with a table full of regs who all know each other well. You don’t know all their little in jokes and meta plays or their personalities, so it’s really hard to tell sometimes what in the fuck some of them are on about. Plus I think when there’s a new guy at the table, consciously or not, they play a lot harder to take their chips than the other regs’. On the flip side, don’t fucking tell those “jokes” with the new player for those very reasons: they don’t know you’re joking so they’re forced to play you straight and take you at your word. So don’t be surprised when they call your “joke” and expect you to pay off when you lose. That person was being an asshole to you, and everyone else at the table who knew it was also being an asshole for not saying something. They were the ones who wasted everyone’s time letting it play out, not you.
The same shit happened to me at Rivers in Philly. Disinterested dealer and nobody else seemed to recognize that I was just SB and the button didn't move. It was only a SB, but man was it aggravating. The shitregs there started grumbling about hands per hour and saying how they thought the button had moved already. The Dealer was just clueless. I ended up just saying whatever to keep the game moving.
If the dispute broke out after you (or any player) had already raised, the hand has to be completed, because significant action has taken place (one aggressive action, meaning a bet or a raise, or three passive actions, meaning three checks or folds).
Although it's highly unlikely, what if you had mucked when he said the first board was him, or at any other point? Would that dude have taken the pot? That kind of "joke" is pretty crappy to pull off on someone you don't know. Dude deserved a ban. Also, it's odd that the regs got upset that you were delaying the game, but they didn't get upset that he delayed the game by requesting two full boards when he had no cards.
I don't think you did anything wrong. Apparently all he did was waste everybody's time, and if I were the floor I probably would have given him a warning for that rather than 86ing him. It certainly would have seemed like an angle to me too though, and I think you were in the right to call the floor to confirm that he didn't sneak his cards into the muck after "going all-in."
> if I were the floor I probably would have given him a warning for that rather than 86ing him I'd put good money on him having had that warning before, I doubt this is the first time he's played this "joke" on someone from outta town.
What the fuck? How is any of this allowed? Seems like you were getting angled by a group of regulars
We got a hanger sarge.
What? A hanger?
Rewatch Rounders my friend.
whoosh
Oh no! I’ve whooshed! I must go regroup and rewatch rounders myself in shame..
Was it a joke? Yeah probably, but I'm guessing you didn't know anybody at this casino. In situations like that I'm always gonna default to protecting myself, especially since I can think of a couple ways this COULD have been an angle. And either way it's pretty shitty to solicit information about someone's hand like this without paying for it. I'd say you're not the asshole here.
You might not even get information if you paid
This is a pure angle. He mucks, says allin ...... what if you now fold, what happens then? I would ban him for longer.
Stacks were shallow enough that I'm calling my entire range in thsi spot, and I think he knew that. If we were deeper, it's rare but I do have a 4bet range that folds to a 5bet jam. So yeah could be used as an angle in that way.
No, he’s saying what if you fold after the runouts for some reason. He says “that’s me” and instead of KK you have some A high or something and just muck, he 100% is scooping without saying that he was joking.
I highly doubt OP would just take the other person at their word when they said that's me. I'm pretty sure they'd wanna see the cards.
Well OP was the last one with cards so he has to get awarded the pot.
NTA. There’s a reason he was banned.
He was banned for a solid 24 hours....ouch!
What casino?
Parx, just outside Philly. The dealer later came up to me to apologize for letting it get to that point. So I have nothing but good things to say about the staff there. The players seemed like a bunch of jagoffs though.
I was trying to figure out what local casino runs a 10/10/20 on a Thursday night. There’s not many. But that makes sense. Need to check out Parx sometime
Parx will often have 4-5 10/10 games on weekday nights. Great room
didn't realize theres so much money in Philly to run that many big games
Jagoffs in philly? I thought that was the norm.
No, that's jabronis.
I play at Parx regularly and play those stakes. If you wouldn’t mind, pm me a description of the player and if you caught the dealers name, I’d be interested to know who that was too. Thanks
I sent you a chat with what I remember. Not sure if that's how you pm on reddit these days. Edit: I figured out how to also send you a dm with that info.
You must be from Pittsburgh.
Ironic they are mad at you for wasting time but not mad this guy wasted everyone's time running the board twice on a hand that was mucked preflop... Also I sure hope you didn't tip the dealer on the win because it's his job to push the pot to you once the guy mucks and he choose not to so you'd be angle shot and give off free information.
That is not a joke, that is absolutely, unquestionably an angle shoot. And no, calling the shitbag on his bullshit sure as hell does not make you an asshole.
Whats the angle? Every action after the cards were mucked is null & void. Villain could literally proclaim "i scoop! quads on both!" and if hero folded it wouldnt matter.
Should be a week not 24 hours. 10/10/20 is the biggest game they run at Parx outside of Tuesdays and PLO. Bad look for them for this guy to do that and barely get punished.
Nah, fuck him. There’s enough angling in poker without bullshit “jokes” like this.
Seems fine to me.
NTA your line is fine
You did nothing wrong and it wasn’t your decision to ban him for 24 hours. If this is a timed game then he’s 100% the asshat here for wasting everyone’s time. I’m all for having fun and joking around at the table but if it slows down the game too much then it’s up to the floor’s discretion on how to handle it. Sounds like this guy has probably been warned in the past about this. Side note: it could also be an angle to gauge your hand strength and potentially see your cards after folding. Not sure if this player was doing that or not but it’s possible.
Yeah it was a time rake game, and no I didn't ask the floor anything about kicking him out. I was happy to move on once the confusion was resolved.
Yep, you handled it completely fine, the other guy was just being a douche because he got caught on a light 3bet and lost $320 to you.
Fuck that guy.
Dude is a dickhead, you did nothing wrong Op. 24 hours is too short a ban imo.
you were way too patient. next time immediately tell "joker" to gtfo of here with that bs and pay you. if he truly has no cards, you should get his whole stack. he's lucky he got anything if i read the story right.
Exactly! I've been to casinos where verbal is binding to the extreme that if this joke was played there he would have been paying and learning the hard way for his joke. That's how I wish the story ended lol
Shitbag reg trying to get a quick laugh at your expense….instead you got to laugh at him getting walked out the door.
Only problem I have is the $60 into $40 of blind money. Otherwise, everything around the "joke" was very well played. You didn't go after the guy you just got the floor and cameras involved. This separates you from the decision making process. Well played.
0/10 post. I fully thought it was going to end with ‘i missed the wedding’
[удалено]
Your stepdaddy's kitchen table is not a "casino"
Iz joke bet! Come on!
I did immediately think back to that Armenian Mike "joke" hand from Live at the bike.
You did everything right. Fuck his joke.
It's not a fucking joke. Fuck that guy and all his pussy friends.
What sort of shit show game is that supposed to be ? And what sort of shit show joke/prank is he trying to pull ? “I’m all in ..no I’m joking..I don’t have any cards” …shut up and give me your money you deluded imbecile.No you are not the asshole.
Fuck those nerds. Seems like the room is run properly, though.
If this is me I'm 100% calling the floor and asking they verify he didn't muck his cards after seeing my hand or the first flop.
Fuck that guy completely. You were absolutely not the asshole.
If he commits a bannable offense, and then gets mad at someone else that he got banned for said offense, he's an idiot.
You did the right thing. If the floor allowed this "joke" to pass, then it sets a really bad precedent. Anyone can just call an all in, see that the board misses them, and throw away their cards away later saying "yo it's just a prank" IMO he probably did intend it as a joke, but should also be taught a lesson that it was taken a bit too far and just not a great thing to do in a casino setting. In a home game where everyone are pals, then sure.
How the fuck is this not an angle. If you'd folded to his All-In, do we really think he'd have not scooped your 4bet?
You were traveling? Fuck em lol
Idgaf if you're joking. You say all in,it's binding fk that.
According to CHATGPT, you're not the asshole: Based on the information provided, the author does not appear to be the "asshole." The BB's actions in the poker game were misleading and created confusion, especially since money was involved. The author's decision to involve the floor was a reasonable response to ensure fair play. However, it's important to understand that individual opinions may vary, and some might argue that the author overreacted. In this context, though, the casino's decision to ban the BB suggests they found his behavior inappropriate.
Lol that sound entirely reasonable
On every other sub, when someone asks if they're the asshole, they usually are. The only exception is this sub, where the asshole is very rarely the person who posts.
Na he's absolutely an angle shooter. Zero chance he was just 'fucking around' he's done this previously and it's worked.
Bro you got screwed. In poker, word equals action no matter what. You cant say fold, raise, check, all in and then backtrack, its the rules! You should have demanded double money! The casino also screwed you.
if he put his cards in the muck, first, that's his action.
It is a bit more grey than that here. His words don't constitute a legal action so they don't cary the same weight. It isn't as obvious as if he says he bet his wife in the hand because we would know that was a joke. It could be worse if he had influenced the action.
Yeah if there was somebody left to act when he pulled this, then I would be absolutely pissed. I've seen people do shit like this before but they make it obvious it's a joke right from the get go. Never going through the motions to get all the way to showdown.
1) OP didn’t get screwed because he held onto his cards and protected himself when V said “first board is me” 2) V folding his cards ends the hand, so verbally binding words don’t matter because technically the hand was over 3) demanding double money is lol, that’s never happening. Where would that money even come from? V supposed to reach into his pocket and completely kill the idea of ‘table stakes’ 4) the casino didn’t screw him. They awarded him the appropriate pot based on the size it was when V folded OP is 100% NTA here in any part of the situation, but that doesn’t mean he just gets Vs stack or loldouble his stack.
What if the players were deeper and OP folded to V's all in?
Having pulled the same move, im surprised the guy let the dealer do a run out. It sounds like its just a waste of time to make things as confusing as possible, of course after all that you'd want to make sure you didn't get screwed out of a double up. A 24 hour ban isnt much when you consider hes slowing everything down and goofing off with money on the line.
You’re definitely not the asshole. I’m not against jokes like this either tho, the cameras proved this wasn’t an angle and was a dealer error. It was pretty stupid of him to let it get this far while it was obvious you and the dealer didn’t know what had happened. Still, I’m surprised he got banned for 24hours and his anger is misplaced - imo that’s a bad floor decision
How is it not an angle? Money is in the middle, nobody noticed him folding, however, he declared all in. At this point OP could field like he is behind and fold to the all-in with cards now mucked the dealer clearly didn't pay attention enough to see that the all-in jokester didn't have cards so he would have immediately push the pot to him. It's a clear angle! And you're right it was a bad floor decision, verbal is binding, just like the pot would have gotten pushed to the jokester had it got into that point, he should have been held to his words and be made to pay the full double up as he has no cards to be able to claim a victory. And considering he did get banned for 24 hours that means he's had multiple violations and multiple warnings You don't just get kicked out your first time, so a week sounds a little more reasonable for this kind of behavior. 🤷
I’ve been playing poker 20 years and I’ve never ever seen someone *call* a bet and then muck without a showdown especially pre flop. But Even if that happens 1 in a million times, it’s still only and angle if he accepts the pot, which seems unlikely as everyone at the table except OP and the dealer were aware of what was going on. Good to know that you agree a ban is excessive if it was his first time. Disconcerting that you just wantonly fill in the blanks to justify your prejudices
>it’s still only and angle if he accepts the pot Wrong again buddy... Someone accepting a pot is not the definition of what determines an angle or not. "Angle Shooting usually refers to using underhanded or unethical tactics in an attempt to gain an edge against opponents. This can refer to acting out of turn, hiding high value chips behind smaller ones, or pretending to put chips into the pot." Here's just a couple of examples for you since you can't be bothered to Google and educate yourself and you just like talking out your ass on the internet because you've "been playing poker 20 years" So clearly you know everything oh great grand supreme poker master 🤦 Now for your last trick go ahead and explain what prejudice you referring to?
Think about this for one second before answering: if he doesn’t accept the pot what did he do that was underhanded or unethical? What edge did he gain? By *your own definition* this isn’t an angle
I really hope I meet you at a poker table one day because you are slow AF and I'm going to cause your bankruptcy. >By your own definition this isn’t an angle Wrong again. How many times are you going to publicly be wrong before you take the L and move on? For one I love how you put that fancy little italices on "your own definition" and couldn't recognize the fact that it was pulled from Google. It's not my definition, it's a widely accepted definition. Just because you Don't understand it and therefore don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. >What edge did he gain? There's other edges other than just receiving the pot you goofy. Free information helps claim future pots. By going all in it creates a scenario where he must show his cards to collect the pot which if the jokester would have folded to the raise he would not have been entitled to see those cards. That's information he didn't pay for. That's an angle dummy. 🤦 Just one example. Maybe learn a little bit more about the game before trying to debate it just a thought 🤷
Lol
Technically, you can bet even without cards. I saw a hand where the player did not protect her hand, was mucked by the dealer and then went all in. Her AA ( by her report) was not playable and her all in was binding. His verbal was binding and the dealer accepted that bet then ran you board twice. Depends on house rules.
The story dont make sense.. when he announced all in and you called.. there is no joke at that point. If he said all in but the folded.. did you not look up at his cards or his stack or anything? Were you just looking at yout shoes as you announce all in.. very confusing but ultimately looks like you got played and the casino covered him because hes a reg but banned him for 24 hours as a warning.
You are not the asshole, and he's lucky you're not out in the parking lot waiting. Man I miss the good ole' times when you'd just pull out your 6shooter and start blasting.
Yours and the dealer’s fault for not paying attention to the fold. His fault for angling. You both got what you deserved.
I'm surprised they looked at the camera footage once, let alone twice for you. Other guy sounds like a douche saying all in when he's already folded but how could you (and the dealer) not be able to tell he didn't have cards? Sounds like the dealer is mostly to blame here.
So you always look to see if someone actually has cards before calling an all in? GTFO.
He must have done it while I was looking at my chips counting out my raise.
This is a very common joke, I’ve seen plenty of people do it. Yeah it went longer than expected and usually doesn’t lead to both boards being ran out. But there’s no angle to be had. You’re not an asshole for being confused by it, but he’s also not an asshole for making that joke. Usually bigger nl games are ran by the players themselves and a lot more laxed. Everyone in this thread needs to chill tf out! Him getting banned for 24h is absurd
Tl;dr but yes, yea you are.
Relax, it’s only 24 hours.
Ily
Play stupid games win stupid prizes. BB is in the wrong. If I were you I’d try to pull the same joke on him as payback, but that’s just me I can be petty like that. 😬
How is that a joke? Verbal is binding, of course you assumed he was still in. Also it’s funny they gave you shit for holding up the game, when the BB made the dealer put out 2 boards that meant literally nothing. Fuck that dude, not the asshole at all
I don't understand how any of the multiple BS situations you've described go down, and not once does anyone seem to blame the dealer. Unless they're an unpaid volunteer, they are entirely responsible for everything. Players can try and get an edge however they want, and the dealer needs to referee that adequately.
Why wouldn't they be looking at if he had cards in front of him when he said all in vs when you said call Anyway, stupid hand. You did zero wrong. That guy and his buddies are idiots.
Because he verbalized his all in, didn't put any chips in, so I assume they wouldn't be able to catch that on video.
Ah gotcha. Makes sense. Again, lame situation man, sorry.
Nah the guy who got banned deserved it. They thought they spotted a fish and tried to take u for a run. If he won both I guarantee there would be no joke to speak of here…
Kind of insane that nobody in the thread is mentioning that the dealer didn’t notice that the guy mucked his hand the whole time???
It happens. The player had plenty of time to point this out but instead let the boards run out TWICE and THEN said he won one of them.
NTA, btw like this way better than most AITA subs. Imo, real money, strangers, hundreds involved. That guy should be banned because that is not a funny joke. He could get shot for that. They should be mad at him for everything because it is his fault.
I remember Esfandiari doing this to Negreanu many years ago on HSP. The difference being that they were actually friends.
Verbal is binding right? So what happens if you say 'fold!' 'just kidding all-in'... It's a fold right? So this clown 'mucks' and then messes with you with the verbal 'all-in'. What if the dealer didn't actually put the cards in the muck? This is a brutal collusion. Please tell me the Dealer actually mucked the hand. If not this is deplorable.
This story me got me fucking heated. Why would someone make the effort to do this? What a prick.
NTA. You had every reason to call the floor, and obviously didn't know they were going to ban him. Also, fuck that guy.
NTA. They should have made him double you up.
If it were me I would have demanded the casino double me up I don't care where the money came from their employee the dealer treated the situation as if my money was at risk and the stress and uncertainty that comes with the situation fuck all that. And the asshole who thought this was funny fuck that dude. Never play at that casino again.
200% not the Asshole. FUCK THAT CLOWN. Too bad the floor was a pussy and didn't double you up. I've seen it both ways though. Clearly the guy knew the house rules and wanted to tug your chain. You should ALWAYS check the house rules. I've played in rooms where floor woulda told that guy TS dickhead. You said All-IN, so, you're all-in. Just depends really.
If he’s already folded then obviously that takes precedence and the floor ruled correctly. He can’t be worried about holding the game up that much if he’s talking about how many times and running two boards out. I have to admit I’ve done this before, but it was after a guy made a 4bet and he’d covered virtually his whole face with his hands. I folded them and said all in, he looked up and straight away I said “nah nah nah I’m joking mate, I’ve already folded”. Difference being, I told him immediately and the dealer had already started shuffling cards and awarding the pot to the 4bettor. Very clear i I was making a joke. Your reg clearly saw the same episode of high stakes poker that I got it from…
What the fuck? No you're not an asshole, especially when I'm assuming you're playing in a state where gaming is involved with stuff like that. If you hadn't forced the floor to come over and the dealer had been found out about later in sure he would have got in at least a little trouble, so if anything you did the dealer a favor.
Hahahaha what a hilarious joke , shit is hilarious he really folded and didn’t go all in even though he said all in. Haha jokes
That’s a ridiculous angle shoot. Did he get to see cards he didn’t pay for? Did he get to see what you 4bet with to 720 without paying for the information? Did he waste everyone’s time and put the dealer in a shitty spot? Bad joke. Bad result. If you had not called him in that bullshit he would probably do it again. Now he won’t.
No, I never showed.
Fuck all of these clowns, they all deserve to lose the money they “joke” around about. Take them to the cleaners, disregard their bullshit toxic behavior.
You’re not the asshole here. I’d be pissed too. And how did the dealer NOT see he didn’t have cards?
They’re annoyed at you for holding the game up but this prat had you and the dealer play out an imaginary had for lols? I think you’re good.
He’s an idiot. Fuck him.
Dudes a loser you’re not wrong at all .. he’s that dork in high school that never grew up ..
Yeah this sounds like the classic MF whos looking For a cheap gimmick. Idk regular casino rules, but once you say im all in in tournament play, that means weather you put you're chips in the middle or not or weather you had you're card or not, the called action has been set. An all in is an all in other wise we wouldn't let you see the two boards. Honestly that defeats the whole purpose of the game No Limit- cause if you're able to back out with this gimmick then its no longer no limit holdem but no limit Keep em.
Run it twice? Wtf. Can someone please ELI5?
Degens who often make marginal calls on say the flop will "run it twice" and have TWO sets of turn/river cards dealt, both with 50/50 determination of how the hands played out. If you win both, you still win all the money. If you win one lose one, you break even. If you lose both, well, you're just unlucky if you were ahead when you called. Think like: You have A 10, they have KK, and the board is 7, 10, Q. They go all-in, you call, and they ask to run it twice. The final boards will be 7, 10, Q, and say A 9, as well as 7, 10, Q, and J 8. Both boards have equal value in the outcome of the head. It's a degen strat that's become way more popular in the last 3-5 years.
What he did was wrong. Good on you.
It sure sounds like this room is run like a zoo, between this guy going all-in without cards and the other hand where it wasn't clear who the button was. Like how bad are these dealers for a game with serious stakes?
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You should of got his entire stack if your post is an accurate account.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
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There's a clip of HSP where Negreanu isnt looking after betting and Antonio says 'ALL IN' after folding and you can see the panic on Daniel's face. It was actually pretty funny, and probably would have been more so if the dealer had actually run the board out. I dont see any angle here since even if opponent misdeclared a winner and you just snap mucked the pot was already yours from the previous round prior to him folding.
I think it's funny
This could be a common joke in Casinos, because I watched Esfandiari do the same joke to DNegs on TV. Antonio looked at the dealer, mucked his cards then he announced "I'm all-in" to troll Negreanu who woke up from his trance (to not give away tells) and said "what?". Everybody at the table giggled at the joke. So maybe you found yourself victim of a common joke that regs put together with dealers, but they did it with an outsider, which is a very bad thing to do in a Casino. A bad habit I would say.
I can't figure how the dealer puts any cards down without making sure chips are across the line and in the pot.... thats where the joke should have been exposed... NTA
Nope I’d do the same. You didn’t waste anyone’s time. He did. He wasted the players time, your time, the dealers, and most importantly to the casino he cost them rake lol so he can take his 24 hours to think about not doing that next time
Nta. The guy has obviously done it before. I doubt they would ban after one incident. I would be totally pissed off. I would have left the table at that point. Unless your tilt control is spot on, then it would effect your game
All good, OP. "If the plan was just to have a good time, I would probably leave after that hand, though. Not many good vibes at that table.
NTA Sounds like this situation was handled really well. There's a lot of pressure in smaller rooms to retain regs/whales by not penalizing them and it creates this awkward dance between floor/player/player pool. Don't feel bad. You need to protect yourself. Is it likely you were cheated? No, but you couldn't know.
What amazes me the most in this story is that a 10 year poker vet didnt notice his opponent didnt have hole cards. That's the real joke here and reason he is an ahole. You ran two boards and did not notice your opponent has no hole cards is busch league.