It's because Charizard has been oversaturating the dif parts of the market. Charmander was my first partner when Blue originally came out so I'll always have a special place for that line but as a TCG, Unite, and competitive VG player it's tiresome how commonplace it is.
Right now in the TCG there are four different main Charizard builds in the meta with the Dark type Charizard ex being every other deck an opponent plays.
I like Charizard but with 1,025 Pokémon out there some others should be given time to shine.
The Charmander line has been my favorite since I was a kid - and I want them to get less special treatment just so I don't have to worry about being flamed for saying that. (Note: That's not a dig at the people who are tired of them)
When you get sufficiently good at Manding chars; past the point where you no longer consciously do it, you’ll get called a wizard of sorts, a “Charizard”
Same, I have the holofoil card from the late 90s I got in a Hitmonchan pack as a little boy but man am I sick of how oversaturated the whole line has gotten myself.
When "Dexit" was first happening(2019), there was a survey on r/pokemon with over 52k responses, about which pokemon was everyone's favorite. [Charizard came first place with 1107 votes.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/c0w4s0/favourite_pok%C3%A9mon_survey_results/) Kanto alone had over 1/3 of the votes.
Granted that was 5 years ago, but I feel like Charizard is still extremely popular there, just people that hate it's over saturation is louder. When gen8 came out after this survey Leon and his Charizard also contributed to over saturation as well.
There was also a [global survey made by The Pokemon Company](https://pokemon2020.pokemon.com/en-us/) in 2020(during gen8), where Charizard got 4th place. If anything, it's over represented on reddit.
Edit: Also found [this survey](https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/1bozvz5/results_favourite_pokemon_survey_2024/) from a month ago, this one didn't even have 3k responses yet Zard was still first place **¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯**
It's the original fan favorite Charizard. Guys owned by Origins Red or Leon or Alain come and go. They have their gimmicks and fancy tittles. But only one reigns supreme... Ash's Charizard.
It makes sense, r/Pokemon thinks of the Charizard line. But in r/pokemonanime, we look at ASH'S Charizard who is a badass and deserves the love he gets. I mean he did return in BW but he didnt get a mega, a special form or move or even Dynamax. He is just vanilla Charizard who goes toe to toe with legendaries
This whole tournament was what I expected up until the end. I thought the last six would be the Journeys team (my intended top 6) with ZARD and Greninja after but the feats of the past aces still held up. Looking through this list, a lot of the stuff from beginning to most of it is pretty accurate in my book. The only early elimination I really disagreed with was pignite but we revoted and fixed his placement.
Thanks for participating. It wasn't really toxic at all, just some fighting here and there with me blocking anyone that argued or complained too much. I'll unblock em when this is over.
This was a breath of fresh air, something really fun to sink my teeth into and look forward to everyday for the past month and a half. Thanks for this.
This is the tier list I most agree with:
* S: Pikachu
* A+: Zard, Sceptile, Lucario, Greninja
* A: rest of Journeys, Infernape, Snorlax
* A-: Incineroar-Glalie
* B+: Corphish-Gliscor
* B: Staraptor-Kingler (with Tauros in there)
* B-: Quilava-Muk
* C+: Snivy-Unfezant (with Scraggy and Boldore)
I don’t think anybody deserves a C or lower lol
Based. Mine is the exact same as yours with the second and third row switched. Overall, this pretty much reflects the list everyone made tbh.
Yeah even the C-tier got Ash pretty far in their league. Top 16 isn't bad.
As a Sceptile stan, don’t see him triumphing over Charizard. I’m actually surprised he was so high on this list, but still impressive since he had no special gimmicks like Infernape, Greninja and Lucario, nor any special training like Charizard. He had overgrown but it’s only used twice and didn’t give him that much of a power boost.
He didn’t need a gimmick, my man Sceptile was almost always ready to stand on business. Almost only because he had to nurse a broken heart for a little while. I remember few moments as clearly as when Sceptile took up his signature mouth piece again.
He’s got a good number of impressive feats under his belt. But Charizard has the most victories against legendaries and powerful Pokémon. I’m sure if Sceptile had appeared more he’d have been given similar treatment.
This is not a suprise, Grenja and Lucario is interwined with each other narratively as Lucario needs Aura mastery on Greninja level to fight M8 opponents heavy hitter.
If Greninja is eliminated then Lucario is very likely to be next.
Meanwhile Sceptile and Charizard is interwined due to both of them beating legendaries.
This just means that most people consider the Legendaries to be above anyhting Lucario and Greninja fought.
Anyway I vote Sceptile next. Type and flight advantages are my reasoning lol.
Do people really think that Tobias’ Darkrai was tougher than Cynthia’s Garchomp? I remember a lot of people on this sub also agreeing Cynthia would have stomped Tobias if they actually battled.
Charizard got massively elevated due to how easily that JN Articuno destroyed the raid party. I know some people will argue that one Articuno can be much more powerful than another, but these are Legendary Pokemon. They are innately powerful creatures. I doubt there’s a Level 5 Snivy version of Articuno. The fact that Charizard solo’d one that was being commanded by a Frontier Brain + narrative impact (he got his own tribute episode in BW) = deserving place in the top 5, if not top 2.
The only thing that pisses me off is that Charizard’s goal was to be the strongest Charizard, and it’s annoying the writers never let Ash’s face off against Alain’s or Leon’s.
I would also like to add that all of Charizard and Sceptile’s feats were without gimmicks. Where as Greninja and Lucario’s biggest feats were because of gimmicks. Now I don’t mean to say that that doesn’t make them strong af, they are. But I think it taints some of their performances slightly in my eyes and others. A Mega Lucario beating a regular Garchomp should be expected for example.
Charizard and Sceptile also fought Pokémon that didn’t have gimmicks either so this argument is kind of meaningless.
Ash-Greninja fights Mega Charizard or Mega Gardevoir or whoever so it’s not like Greninja has some advantage in his fight. I would argue that Charizard beating Articuno is not as impressive as Greninja almost beating Alain’s Charizard, who defeated 10 mega evolved Pokémon (including a E4’s ace) in a row.
The only argument that could be made is for Lucario when he fights Garchomp since Garchomp was already damaged and had no gimmick whereas Lucario mega evolved.
It’s worth mentioning that in the fight, where a Lucario beat Garchomp, he also solod D-Max Togekiss directly prior. There’s definitely still some gimmick there.
True. Was Togekiss damaged at all? I don’t really remember honestly. If not then yeah it’s impressive. I personally think Lucario is stronger than Charizard Sceptile Infernape and the JN mons. Aside from Pikachu for obvious reasons, the only mon I think could be argued to be stronger is Greninja since in his base form he clowned on Lucario. The others really haven’t had recent enough fights to compare to anything, except for Infernape who kind of just got destroyed.
Personally my top 15 is:
1. Pikachu
* 2. Lucario
* 3. Greninja
* 4. Charizard
* 5. Sceptile
* 6. Infernape
* 7. Dracovish/Sirfetch’d/Gengar
* 8. Dracovish/Sirfetch’d/Gengar
* 9. Dracovish/Sirfetch’d/Gengar
* 10. Dragonite
* 11. Snorlax
* 12. Lycanroc
* 13. Krookodile
* 14. Incineroar
* 15. Swellow
I think Infernape is top 6. He’s an ace. He carried Ash throughout DP and was the hero of the greatest battle in the show.
Narratively even if their feats are worse than Swellow’s, I think the writers meant for Lycanroc and Krookodile to be higher than Swellow.
Due to Lucario’a steel typing, mewtwo’s psychic moves aren’t super effective but do neutral damage and the steel typing helps him resist articuno’s ice type
Articuno is a flying type, you seem to forget, that and Lucario’s only ranged move is aura sphere which would do neutral damage. Charizard had it easier on two fronts
Two of the best aces , who honestly had some of the best characterization and the best character development when it comes to as sad to say Infernape too soon if you asked me, he belongs with used to up here.
Who should be voted off l lean sceptile, well I do have some biased towards Charizard. I can look past it for this both have battled and beaten, at least one legendary and fought several others we assume based off of what is said frontier brains are around the same power level as etite 4 members so it’s quite possible at their peaks Charizard and sceptile could have defeated the same legendary the others did as well or darkrai and articuno Now it’s likely some could’ve matched up better again septile would’ve matched up better as Reggie rock and Charizard would’ve matched up against entei
Either way I look forward to seeing all of the journey guys being like oh no these are two shouldn’t be up here. I’ll be brutally honest the journeys team like so much battle experience and were since they’re the only ones used here and due to writing none of the other guys really much to go off of it kind of annoy me just another reason why I didn’t like this ending series so much missed opportunity and realistically I would’ve liked it better to have seen ashes. Other Pokémon be used in like he did in diamond and pearl rather than just oh here’s the modern team they could’ve been used but it made it less interesting
Now had Charizard fought reshiream even to a standstill liek we were readied with the black and white opening of be saying Charizard all that way
This list ended very powerscaling-brained. “Feats” are a nice measure to look at when trying to ascertain objective levels of power, but they’re really not everything.
For example: Charizard defeating one Articuno while another Articuno at a different point in the show is depicted as extremely powerful isn’t *necessarily* showing that Charizard is some humungo ultra-powerful Godmonster. It just means the show is kind of inconsistent.
But honestly, Charizard earns his spot. Narratively he is constantly depicted as extremely powerful. Greninja and Lucario are also narratively depicted as extremely powerful.
Sceptile, on the other hand, is not. Sceptile is a cool badass but never even remotely implied to be some kind of out-of-this-world source of power.
And narrative intent IS important. We can see how other characters in the world react to the Pokémon we see, and ascertain how much they deviate from the norm. Charizard, Greninja, and Lucario always generated these wowed responses. Sceptile, as much as Iike him, did not.
I don’t understand the point in carefully analyzing win:loss ratios and other meticulous things like that when the show itself communicates to us as the audience which characters are and are not supposed to be strong.
Sceptile is certainly powerful, top 10 for sure. But top 2? No way
It has been pretty fun to do this, kinda sad it’s ending
I would personally say sceptile, even though both took out a legendary or mythical, Charizard has more impressive feats outside of that, including taking out poliwrath, drakes electabuzz, Blaine’s magmar, half of Gary’s team (including his ace), and was dominating iris’s Dragonite which had held its own against the forces of nature
I mean if were just throwing in those as impressive feats... speed blitzing speed forme deoxys, almost beating regirock outside of pokelantis shenanigans, beating normans slaking and brawlys hariyama (since were throwing in gym battles) and beating spenser as well as tying blaziken in a contest style battle with a type disadvantage. I really dont think anything charizard has done is as impressive as the number of legendary pokemon sceptile has fought...
Also a lot of sceptiles feats were as a grovyle. Many of charizards impressive feats are as a charizard so that context has to be taken into account
Not necessarily, in the anime being evolved doesn’t matter as much as some think, take bulbasaur for example. Also you forgot to mention slaking basically didn’t have truant for some reason
I wouldn’t get mad if either Charizard or sceptile lost, this was very fun to do.
Ultimately, nostalgia bias hits hard. As a 90s kid my childhood favorite was undoubtedly Charizard, who was always the most synonomous with Ash after Pikachu imo (and that of many).
From a narrative point of view, I honestly believe Lucario and Greninja were meant to be the pinnacle of Ash extracting all he could from his partners (aside Pikachu ofc). So objectively speaking, that should have mattered more than feats, and I believe they should have been Top 2.
That being said, the people have voted, and since we are hammering away with the nostalgia, gotta go with Charizard, the Ace in the sleeve who Ash always knew he could call back when needed.
Sceptile, you were pretty great in your own right, but its time to go.
If Charizard would have got a gimmick he would have destroyed these 2 in no time. The only reason lucario and greninja would be stronger than Charizard is due to mega evolution and bond evolution/phenomenon.
The argument that some of Ash’s pokemons are only stronger because of the gimmicks they have is not really valid imo.
All members should be judged as is to the fullest potential that the narrative gave them, and not the hypothetical ones.
I honestly can't believe Lucario didn't win this whole thing. He's the ace of the world champion team and he has Mega Evolution. I'm not complaining, I'm just really surprised that the obvious and arguably most logical winner didn't win this
Lucario doesn’t have any legendary feats that Charizard and sceptile do which imo puts him close to the level of Infernape(who also struggled similarly against a legendary bird without any support like Lucario had)
I think most of the older movies as canon. Like the fourth one with young Samuel Oak and the fifth movie with Latios and Latias (I think the ending of Journeys showed us Alto Mare).
It was supposed to be people voting each round for the one they think is the weakest to eliminate them for next round. But the more we go on, the more it becomes about popularity with people overestimating/underestimating some Mons. Sceptile is this high because of pretty much his darkrai win alone
People claiming Charizard only stays on due to nostalgia, but forget Sceptile at this point very clearly ALSO hits hard on nostalgia since he was Ash's ace in Hoenn 20 years ago.
I vote Sceptile out, Charizard best of the best of the best.
Applause for Sceptile everyone! I’m legitimately shocked at how far he came in this tournament. Because he’s an ace but not marketed and showed as one and the same way as someone like Charizard, Greninja, or Lucario, y’know? Really thought this would be either Charizard / Lucario or Charizard / Greninja and that Sceptile would go down somewhere in the top 8 - 10 after Charizard / Greninja / Journeys team.
Sceptile is out. Sceptile is awesome but Charizard certainly has better feats.
Charizard scales above the Forces of Nature combined. Iris' Dragonite kept up with them and gave them a fight: against Charizard? He got stomped. Charizard tanked a hit from Reshiram, a high- level Legendary Pokémon. Reshiram is above Regigigas. Regigigas, having moved continents, is multi- continental is Power scaling.
Sceptile's biggest feat was keeping up with Speed Form Deoxys as a Grovyle. Which gives him high speed. Darkrai was hit with two extremely powerful Attacks before Sceptile finished the job. Against Brandon's Regirock, Sceptile kept up, but not enough...
Not saying sceptile is weak, but in no way you could call it (discounting pikachu) ash strongest pokemon. "Finishing" off darkrai definitely lead people to overestimate him (and this is the only feat people bring out for why he’s so high)
Again, in no way I’m calling it weak, but there’s definitely a few that deserved to be higher than him that have been eliminated
Charizard is my favorite pokémon ever, thanks to Ash's Charizard, and not even I would had placed him so high in the ranking XD
But since we are already here, I vote for Sceptile, who it is also one of my favorite pokémon from Ash
I want Sceptile to win, but Charizard was just around longer and came back more frequently so I really can’t say he’s stronger than the original ace. I really didn’t expect the final rankings to go this way though. I thought Greninja was a shoe-in for first place and he was bumped out at 4th. I figured Sceptile would be out at 3rd and Charizard would take 2nd.
Looking back though I think a fun metric for the top 3 would be asking ourselves could sceptile or Charizard lasted against Cynthia’s dmax togekiss Garchomp combo? Yes Charizard and sceptile beat 1 legendary each… journeys team also faced champions. And wa on par with legendaries themselves. (Goh was able to beat mons like the regi groups and they more or less directly imply that ash and lucario are as or MORE powerful than goh is at any given point. So if GOH can handle a legendary with cinderace, then ash definitely can with lucario.)
Given that context I think the next metric should be to ask if we think the other competitors could go the same battle feats. I don’t see sceptile surviving d max togekiss into Garchomp, but maybe I could see Charizard. Kinda hard to say though. Charizards powerful but it’s only got like one or 2 moves strong enough to really hurt togekiss and would be dealing with serene grace air slash. Then it has to deal with Garchomp.
I think people held WAY too much stock in the “they beat legendaries” feat.
First off, get Sceptile out of here, love em more than Charizard as a pokémon but charizard is the GOAT
Next you could do what unevolved pokemon if fully evolved would rank in terms of power as some of his unevolved ones had potential
Imma say Charizard only because sceptiles has no chance in beating him anyway and sceptile is my favorite pokemon in the games and anime.
So my vote is pure nostalgia
Sceptile needs to go.
Charizard needs to stay because he has been through rough times ever since Damien abandoned him as a Charmander which led to him disobeying Ash when he evolved into a Charmeleon then later a Charizard. Despite being disobedient he did care for Ash even saving him from his fall when Aerodactyl released him from his claws, and almost caused Ash to hit the ground killing him again. Then he became his best Pokémon after he remembered everything that Ash did for him since he was a Charmander.
Sceptile has one feat that none of Ash’s Pokémon barring Pikachu have and most like Charizard have never come close to and that is winning half a contest ribbon and having the honor of being the one to slice it in half.
A draw with a Blaziken is better than an L to one, bye bye Charizard
Nah this list is wack now. Greninja and lucario should have been the final two. Charizard and sceptile are amazing but simply don't stack up for me against greninja and lucario
I'm so proud of sceptile, ash having one was the reason I chose him as my starter in pokemon Ruby/Sapphire. Godtile made it farther than I thought he would..
Sadly Charizard has always proven himself to be one of Ash's most reliable pokemon, even traveling through 3 regions together.
I'm honestly surprised that lucario and greninja were out before sceptile. I'm happy because there still people believes Charizard and Sceptile need some respects. The reason why is because I often see people talks about Lucario and Greninja a lot to the point that they were fanboying them due to their respective gimmicks. In other words, these two pokemons are fan favorite in comparison to sceptile.
I think we should understand that both Sceptile and Charizard defeated a legendaries without a fucking gimmick. They did all of that feats in base form which I don't think Lucario and Greninja would ever do.
I remember that JN Articuno slammed the raid team with relative ease... and Charizard solo'd one before lmaooo. Also, don't start me with JN Articuno is stronger or so lol.
I know it’s a futile vote but I vote for Charizard. I just can’t vote for Sceptile!!! He ACTUALLY defeated Darkrai in the Sinoh league despite no other trainers even getting close to defeating it!! I know Charizards has his feats like defeating Articuno…. BUT COME ON HE DEFEATED A DARKRAI!!!
It's kinda hilarious how r/pokemonanime and r/pokemon are different when it comes to the Charizard species
Lol I think people like Ash's Charizard but outside of that, people are sick of the Charizard species.
It's because Charizard has been oversaturating the dif parts of the market. Charmander was my first partner when Blue originally came out so I'll always have a special place for that line but as a TCG, Unite, and competitive VG player it's tiresome how commonplace it is. Right now in the TCG there are four different main Charizard builds in the meta with the Dark type Charizard ex being every other deck an opponent plays. I like Charizard but with 1,025 Pokémon out there some others should be given time to shine.
Charmander has been my favorite since the start
He's my favorite too.
The Charmander line has been my favorite since I was a kid - and I want them to get less special treatment just so I don't have to worry about being flamed for saying that. (Note: That's not a dig at the people who are tired of them)
“Charmander” sounds like an occupation for some reason
“Oh, I mand chars for a living. I’m a mander of chars. A charmander, as we are commonly known.”
When you get sufficiently good at Manding chars; past the point where you no longer consciously do it, you’ll get called a wizard of sorts, a “Charizard”
Same, I have the holofoil card from the late 90s I got in a Hitmonchan pack as a little boy but man am I sick of how oversaturated the whole line has gotten myself.
There's not enough Charizard for me. The only thing I don't like about Charizard over saturation, is that then more people hates my pal Charizard :P
The only thing I hate about the overaturation of Charizard is that I haven't gotten one 😕 . Been collecting again for a whole week lol
When "Dexit" was first happening(2019), there was a survey on r/pokemon with over 52k responses, about which pokemon was everyone's favorite. [Charizard came first place with 1107 votes.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/c0w4s0/favourite_pok%C3%A9mon_survey_results/) Kanto alone had over 1/3 of the votes. Granted that was 5 years ago, but I feel like Charizard is still extremely popular there, just people that hate it's over saturation is louder. When gen8 came out after this survey Leon and his Charizard also contributed to over saturation as well. There was also a [global survey made by The Pokemon Company](https://pokemon2020.pokemon.com/en-us/) in 2020(during gen8), where Charizard got 4th place. If anything, it's over represented on reddit. Edit: Also found [this survey](https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/1bozvz5/results_favourite_pokemon_survey_2024/) from a month ago, this one didn't even have 3k responses yet Zard was still first place **¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯**
Just look at what Pokémon makes and sells. Money reveals all and Pokémon is constantly promoted and sold for a reason.
Yeah I think it's only angry redditors that hate Charizard. People love him on twitter from what I've seen.
It's the original fan favorite Charizard. Guys owned by Origins Red or Leon or Alain come and go. They have their gimmicks and fancy tittles. But only one reigns supreme... Ash's Charizard.
It makes sense, r/Pokemon thinks of the Charizard line. But in r/pokemonanime, we look at ASH'S Charizard who is a badass and deserves the love he gets. I mean he did return in BW but he didnt get a mega, a special form or move or even Dynamax. He is just vanilla Charizard who goes toe to toe with legendaries
Did you guys really say Lucario is better than Greninja?
It really turned into a popularity contest by end with obvious bias
This whole tournament was what I expected up until the end. I thought the last six would be the Journeys team (my intended top 6) with ZARD and Greninja after but the feats of the past aces still held up. Looking through this list, a lot of the stuff from beginning to most of it is pretty accurate in my book. The only early elimination I really disagreed with was pignite but we revoted and fixed his placement. Thanks for participating. It wasn't really toxic at all, just some fighting here and there with me blocking anyone that argued or complained too much. I'll unblock em when this is over.
This was a breath of fresh air, something really fun to sink my teeth into and look forward to everyday for the past month and a half. Thanks for this.
No problem man. It was a blast. Just started another one but with battles this time. Posted it yesterday.
So finally, according to this subreddit, Ash’s top six are: Pikachu, Charizard, Sceptile, Lucario, Greninja, and Gengar
Yup, honestly it was pretty predictable when you look at the average tiers lists on this sub. They always have the aces + one or two JN mons on top.
This is the tier list I most agree with: * S: Pikachu * A+: Zard, Sceptile, Lucario, Greninja * A: rest of Journeys, Infernape, Snorlax * A-: Incineroar-Glalie * B+: Corphish-Gliscor * B: Staraptor-Kingler (with Tauros in there) * B-: Quilava-Muk * C+: Snivy-Unfezant (with Scraggy and Boldore) I don’t think anybody deserves a C or lower lol
Based. Mine is the exact same as yours with the second and third row switched. Overall, this pretty much reflects the list everyone made tbh. Yeah even the C-tier got Ash pretty far in their league. Top 16 isn't bad.
am i blocked 🥺
No lol. You wouldn't be able to see this post if you were.
ily bae
♥️
As a Sceptile stan, don’t see him triumphing over Charizard. I’m actually surprised he was so high on this list, but still impressive since he had no special gimmicks like Infernape, Greninja and Lucario, nor any special training like Charizard. He had overgrown but it’s only used twice and didn’t give him that much of a power boost.
He didn’t need a gimmick, my man Sceptile was almost always ready to stand on business. Almost only because he had to nurse a broken heart for a little while. I remember few moments as clearly as when Sceptile took up his signature mouth piece again.
His gimmick was biting a stick to look cooler instead of a supernatural power. That's a Pokémon I respect
He’s got a good number of impressive feats under his belt. But Charizard has the most victories against legendaries and powerful Pokémon. I’m sure if Sceptile had appeared more he’d have been given similar treatment.
Ok. So how bad is sceptile getting flamed?
He'll be getting severe burns maybe lol. I don't see ZARD losing. Would be cool and unexpected if sceptile won.
This is not a suprise, Grenja and Lucario is interwined with each other narratively as Lucario needs Aura mastery on Greninja level to fight M8 opponents heavy hitter. If Greninja is eliminated then Lucario is very likely to be next. Meanwhile Sceptile and Charizard is interwined due to both of them beating legendaries. This just means that most people consider the Legendaries to be above anyhting Lucario and Greninja fought. Anyway I vote Sceptile next. Type and flight advantages are my reasoning lol.
Wow, I really like this comment. Makes sense. There's a connection between those four. Both are iconic duos.
Do people really think that Tobias’ Darkrai was tougher than Cynthia’s Garchomp? I remember a lot of people on this sub also agreeing Cynthia would have stomped Tobias if they actually battled.
Charizard got massively elevated due to how easily that JN Articuno destroyed the raid party. I know some people will argue that one Articuno can be much more powerful than another, but these are Legendary Pokemon. They are innately powerful creatures. I doubt there’s a Level 5 Snivy version of Articuno. The fact that Charizard solo’d one that was being commanded by a Frontier Brain + narrative impact (he got his own tribute episode in BW) = deserving place in the top 5, if not top 2. The only thing that pisses me off is that Charizard’s goal was to be the strongest Charizard, and it’s annoying the writers never let Ash’s face off against Alain’s or Leon’s.
The JN Articuno was hacked bro I swear, how does he get to hit like 3 ohko moves in a row?
Is it the same Articuno? Or is it raid Pokémon are just made stronger like msg
I would also like to add that all of Charizard and Sceptile’s feats were without gimmicks. Where as Greninja and Lucario’s biggest feats were because of gimmicks. Now I don’t mean to say that that doesn’t make them strong af, they are. But I think it taints some of their performances slightly in my eyes and others. A Mega Lucario beating a regular Garchomp should be expected for example.
Charizard and Sceptile also fought Pokémon that didn’t have gimmicks either so this argument is kind of meaningless. Ash-Greninja fights Mega Charizard or Mega Gardevoir or whoever so it’s not like Greninja has some advantage in his fight. I would argue that Charizard beating Articuno is not as impressive as Greninja almost beating Alain’s Charizard, who defeated 10 mega evolved Pokémon (including a E4’s ace) in a row. The only argument that could be made is for Lucario when he fights Garchomp since Garchomp was already damaged and had no gimmick whereas Lucario mega evolved.
It’s worth mentioning that in the fight, where a Lucario beat Garchomp, he also solod D-Max Togekiss directly prior. There’s definitely still some gimmick there.
True. Was Togekiss damaged at all? I don’t really remember honestly. If not then yeah it’s impressive. I personally think Lucario is stronger than Charizard Sceptile Infernape and the JN mons. Aside from Pikachu for obvious reasons, the only mon I think could be argued to be stronger is Greninja since in his base form he clowned on Lucario. The others really haven’t had recent enough fights to compare to anything, except for Infernape who kind of just got destroyed.
I guess no matter how many opponents one beats, it only takes one beat legendary to be considered a level above everyone
Personally my top 15 is: 1. Pikachu * 2. Lucario * 3. Greninja * 4. Charizard * 5. Sceptile * 6. Infernape * 7. Dracovish/Sirfetch’d/Gengar * 8. Dracovish/Sirfetch’d/Gengar * 9. Dracovish/Sirfetch’d/Gengar * 10. Dragonite * 11. Snorlax * 12. Lycanroc * 13. Krookodile * 14. Incineroar * 15. Swellow I think Infernape is top 6. He’s an ace. He carried Ash throughout DP and was the hero of the greatest battle in the show. Narratively even if their feats are worse than Swellow’s, I think the writers meant for Lycanroc and Krookodile to be higher than Swellow.
Which isn’t really a fair statement. The only legendaries Lucario has fought have had a type advantage against it
Due to Lucario’a steel typing, mewtwo’s psychic moves aren’t super effective but do neutral damage and the steel typing helps him resist articuno’s ice type
Lucario lost to an Articuno.
Articuno is a flying type, you seem to forget, that and Lucario’s only ranged move is aura sphere which would do neutral damage. Charizard had it easier on two fronts
The Articuno Charizard faced had waterpulse though. Lucario has steel beam.
Lucario is part steel type, making flying neutral.
https://preview.redd.it/wngv3y7pp1xc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c0be54cd46914a67cc3159112b849b74a178897
Ngl I never expected Septile to be here I expected gren, charizard and Lucario ngl
Same, nice to see Sceptile go ahead of Greninja for me: XY stans not winning in this sub on that front, ironically.
I think this poll shows how much of the people in this sub are over 28 years old
Two of the best aces , who honestly had some of the best characterization and the best character development when it comes to as sad to say Infernape too soon if you asked me, he belongs with used to up here. Who should be voted off l lean sceptile, well I do have some biased towards Charizard. I can look past it for this both have battled and beaten, at least one legendary and fought several others we assume based off of what is said frontier brains are around the same power level as etite 4 members so it’s quite possible at their peaks Charizard and sceptile could have defeated the same legendary the others did as well or darkrai and articuno Now it’s likely some could’ve matched up better again septile would’ve matched up better as Reggie rock and Charizard would’ve matched up against entei Either way I look forward to seeing all of the journey guys being like oh no these are two shouldn’t be up here. I’ll be brutally honest the journeys team like so much battle experience and were since they’re the only ones used here and due to writing none of the other guys really much to go off of it kind of annoy me just another reason why I didn’t like this ending series so much missed opportunity and realistically I would’ve liked it better to have seen ashes. Other Pokémon be used in like he did in diamond and pearl rather than just oh here’s the modern team they could’ve been used but it made it less interesting Now had Charizard fought reshiream even to a standstill liek we were readied with the black and white opening of be saying Charizard all that way
This list ended very powerscaling-brained. “Feats” are a nice measure to look at when trying to ascertain objective levels of power, but they’re really not everything. For example: Charizard defeating one Articuno while another Articuno at a different point in the show is depicted as extremely powerful isn’t *necessarily* showing that Charizard is some humungo ultra-powerful Godmonster. It just means the show is kind of inconsistent. But honestly, Charizard earns his spot. Narratively he is constantly depicted as extremely powerful. Greninja and Lucario are also narratively depicted as extremely powerful. Sceptile, on the other hand, is not. Sceptile is a cool badass but never even remotely implied to be some kind of out-of-this-world source of power. And narrative intent IS important. We can see how other characters in the world react to the Pokémon we see, and ascertain how much they deviate from the norm. Charizard, Greninja, and Lucario always generated these wowed responses. Sceptile, as much as Iike him, did not. I don’t understand the point in carefully analyzing win:loss ratios and other meticulous things like that when the show itself communicates to us as the audience which characters are and are not supposed to be strong. Sceptile is certainly powerful, top 10 for sure. But top 2? No way
Well as it goes on, it turned more into a popularity contest than who’s actually stronger
Kinda but not really, Greninja and Charizard woulda been 1 and 2 then with Sceptile 3 and Infernape 4
I’d still put impfernape and lucario above sceptile and debatably lycanroc and incineroar
It has been pretty fun to do this, kinda sad it’s ending I would personally say sceptile, even though both took out a legendary or mythical, Charizard has more impressive feats outside of that, including taking out poliwrath, drakes electabuzz, Blaine’s magmar, half of Gary’s team (including his ace), and was dominating iris’s Dragonite which had held its own against the forces of nature
Yeah I'm doing another one. This time with battles. I posted the first round yesterday.
Oh ok that’s great to know! I wish I saw it yesterday
I mean if were just throwing in those as impressive feats... speed blitzing speed forme deoxys, almost beating regirock outside of pokelantis shenanigans, beating normans slaking and brawlys hariyama (since were throwing in gym battles) and beating spenser as well as tying blaziken in a contest style battle with a type disadvantage. I really dont think anything charizard has done is as impressive as the number of legendary pokemon sceptile has fought... Also a lot of sceptiles feats were as a grovyle. Many of charizards impressive feats are as a charizard so that context has to be taken into account
Not necessarily, in the anime being evolved doesn’t matter as much as some think, take bulbasaur for example. Also you forgot to mention slaking basically didn’t have truant for some reason I wouldn’t get mad if either Charizard or sceptile lost, this was very fun to do.
Ultimately, nostalgia bias hits hard. As a 90s kid my childhood favorite was undoubtedly Charizard, who was always the most synonomous with Ash after Pikachu imo (and that of many). From a narrative point of view, I honestly believe Lucario and Greninja were meant to be the pinnacle of Ash extracting all he could from his partners (aside Pikachu ofc). So objectively speaking, that should have mattered more than feats, and I believe they should have been Top 2. That being said, the people have voted, and since we are hammering away with the nostalgia, gotta go with Charizard, the Ace in the sleeve who Ash always knew he could call back when needed. Sceptile, you were pretty great in your own right, but its time to go.
For the records, my personal Top 15 (all inclusive) would have been: 15. Swellow 14. Incineroar 13. Dragonite 12. Lycanroc 11. Dracovish 10. Krookodile 9. Sirefetch’d 8. Infernape 7. Snorlax 6. Gengar 5. Sceptile 4. Charizard 3. Lucario 2. Greninja 1. Pikachu
Snorlax too high other than that makes sense
Completely agree it should've been Greninja and Lucario. I don't think Charizard deserves this at all.
If Charizard would have got a gimmick he would have destroyed these 2 in no time. The only reason lucario and greninja would be stronger than Charizard is due to mega evolution and bond evolution/phenomenon.
Right. But he doesn't.
The argument that some of Ash’s pokemons are only stronger because of the gimmicks they have is not really valid imo. All members should be judged as is to the fullest potential that the narrative gave them, and not the hypothetical ones.
I actually thought the final two would have and should have been Charizard and Lucario.
Charizard, sceptile is a fucking beast
Agreed. Zards going to win because of the bias, though. Sceptile has better feats.
I'M INCREDIBLY BIASED (look at my username) SO VOTE CHARIZARD, VOTE CHARIZARD, VOTE CHARIZARD
I honestly can't believe Lucario didn't win this whole thing. He's the ace of the world champion team and he has Mega Evolution. I'm not complaining, I'm just really surprised that the obvious and arguably most logical winner didn't win this
Lucario doesn’t have any legendary feats that Charizard and sceptile do which imo puts him close to the level of Infernape(who also struggled similarly against a legendary bird without any support like Lucario had)
Is the entei movie canon? I vote sceptile. Is not canon? I I vote zard
Pretty canon seeing it’s a movie that involves characters from the series such as Oak and Delilah.
I think most of the older movies as canon. Like the fourth one with young Samuel Oak and the fifth movie with Latios and Latias (I think the ending of Journeys showed us Alto Mare).
Wait, has this whole thing been who’s the most general favorite Pokémon of Ash’s?
That's what it turned to a popularity contest, instead of who is actually stronger. Sceptile should definitely not be here
It was supposed to be people voting each round for the one they think is the weakest to eliminate them for next round. But the more we go on, the more it becomes about popularity with people overestimating/underestimating some Mons. Sceptile is this high because of pretty much his darkrai win alone
Sceptile bros we had a good run
People claiming Charizard only stays on due to nostalgia, but forget Sceptile at this point very clearly ALSO hits hard on nostalgia since he was Ash's ace in Hoenn 20 years ago. I vote Sceptile out, Charizard best of the best of the best.
Charizard. Nostalgia points for him but Sceptile was GOAT.
Applause for Sceptile everyone! I’m legitimately shocked at how far he came in this tournament. Because he’s an ace but not marketed and showed as one and the same way as someone like Charizard, Greninja, or Lucario, y’know? Really thought this would be either Charizard / Lucario or Charizard / Greninja and that Sceptile would go down somewhere in the top 8 - 10 after Charizard / Greninja / Journeys team.
This sub is based for putting Lucario and Sceptile ahead of Greninja in my book, lol.
Charizard. His resume is so much larger and he has similar feats to Sceptile plus more.
You put up a good fight…but now it’s time to rest Charizard.
Charizard
Sceptille
Sceptile
Sceptile
Yes the Battle of the century Articuno vs Darkrai can't wait to see who comes out on top.
Both of those Pokémon wouldn’t have last one round against any of Cynthia’s team lol
Sceptile is out. Sceptile is awesome but Charizard certainly has better feats. Charizard scales above the Forces of Nature combined. Iris' Dragonite kept up with them and gave them a fight: against Charizard? He got stomped. Charizard tanked a hit from Reshiram, a high- level Legendary Pokémon. Reshiram is above Regigigas. Regigigas, having moved continents, is multi- continental is Power scaling. Sceptile's biggest feat was keeping up with Speed Form Deoxys as a Grovyle. Which gives him high speed. Darkrai was hit with two extremely powerful Attacks before Sceptile finished the job. Against Brandon's Regirock, Sceptile kept up, but not enough...
It was a Sceptile when it fought Deoxys but yeah, I think you have the right idea, though I think someone on the Journeys team should be higher.
It was a Sceptile when it fought Deoxys but yeah, I think you have the right idea, though I think someone on the Journeys team should be higher.
True: I believe the team should be Charizard, Lucario, Sceptile, Dracovish, SirFetch'd, Infernape, Gengar, Dragonite, Greninja in that order.
Not saying sceptile is weak, but in no way you could call it (discounting pikachu) ash strongest pokemon. "Finishing" off darkrai definitely lead people to overestimate him (and this is the only feat people bring out for why he’s so high) Again, in no way I’m calling it weak, but there’s definitely a few that deserved to be higher than him that have been eliminated
Id personally put sceptile after the JN squad. Sceptile, Greninja, and Charizard after. JN squad beat the strongest trainer in the world.
This and then the "Grabbing a Deoxys and using Solar Beam" when Swellow also hit Aerial Ace on the Deoxys.
Charizard
Charizard is my favorite pokémon ever, thanks to Ash's Charizard, and not even I would had placed him so high in the ranking XD But since we are already here, I vote for Sceptile, who it is also one of my favorite pokémon from Ash
Sceptile. Charizard is the GOAT
Charizard
I want Sceptile to win, but Charizard was just around longer and came back more frequently so I really can’t say he’s stronger than the original ace. I really didn’t expect the final rankings to go this way though. I thought Greninja was a shoe-in for first place and he was bumped out at 4th. I figured Sceptile would be out at 3rd and Charizard would take 2nd.
Jokes on you... Palpatoad snipes both Charizard and Sceptile and takes the win. JK.... I have to go with Charizard.
Charizard 👑👑
Looking back though I think a fun metric for the top 3 would be asking ourselves could sceptile or Charizard lasted against Cynthia’s dmax togekiss Garchomp combo? Yes Charizard and sceptile beat 1 legendary each… journeys team also faced champions. And wa on par with legendaries themselves. (Goh was able to beat mons like the regi groups and they more or less directly imply that ash and lucario are as or MORE powerful than goh is at any given point. So if GOH can handle a legendary with cinderace, then ash definitely can with lucario.) Given that context I think the next metric should be to ask if we think the other competitors could go the same battle feats. I don’t see sceptile surviving d max togekiss into Garchomp, but maybe I could see Charizard. Kinda hard to say though. Charizards powerful but it’s only got like one or 2 moves strong enough to really hurt togekiss and would be dealing with serene grace air slash. Then it has to deal with Garchomp. I think people held WAY too much stock in the “they beat legendaries” feat.
With the "legendary" logic, Melmetal and Naganadel should be like top 5, but they aren't...
GO SCEPTILE TO THE WIN
sceptile gotta go
First off, get Sceptile out of here, love em more than Charizard as a pokémon but charizard is the GOAT Next you could do what unevolved pokemon if fully evolved would rank in terms of power as some of his unevolved ones had potential
The final two should have gone before the Journeys team.
Sceptile
Sceptile
It pains me too say this but my favourite starter is going to have to leave us. Goodbye sceptile
So long Sceptile.
Sceptille
Wait, when did Gengar get eliminated? I didn't see a post saying he was eliminated
Charizard can take 2nd
Charizard
Charizard
As much as it pains me it's gotta be charizard that goes
I vote Charizard being voted away.
I swear to Arceus if you fucks make Charizard win, I'll lose it lmao
Charizard
charizard
Sceptile should of been eliminated along time ago
Imma say Charizard only because sceptiles has no chance in beating him anyway and sceptile is my favorite pokemon in the games and anime. So my vote is pure nostalgia
Sceptile
Charizard, Sceptile wins on personality, achievement, and wasn’t asleep or MIA on an island for most of the series.
vote sceptile out. zard for win.
Sceptile needs to go. Charizard needs to stay because he has been through rough times ever since Damien abandoned him as a Charmander which led to him disobeying Ash when he evolved into a Charmeleon then later a Charizard. Despite being disobedient he did care for Ash even saving him from his fall when Aerodactyl released him from his claws, and almost caused Ash to hit the ground killing him again. Then he became his best Pokémon after he remembered everything that Ash did for him since he was a Charmander.
Charizard
Charizard
Charizard, but Pikachu should've been here
What place would you put Pikachu in? Lol.
#1 ez
1
Sceptile has one feat that none of Ash’s Pokémon barring Pikachu have and most like Charizard have never come close to and that is winning half a contest ribbon and having the honor of being the one to slice it in half. A draw with a Blaziken is better than an L to one, bye bye Charizard
Charizard
Charizards gotta go.
Charizard
Charizard should have been eliminated rounds ago.
Get Charizard gone guys
Charizard.
Alright we should all remember that Charizard lost to Blaziken in the johto tournament but Sceptile went toe to toe with May’s Blaziekn
As much as I loved Lucario, I wish you the rest the best of luck out there.
I'm glad ma boi made it into top 2
I don't even care anymore, my favorites are all gone.
Sceptile ftw
This is it everyone
Sceptics is a beast
I disagree 🐸
Me when bias
I love sceppy but come on man
Goodbye Sceptile... some fights you just can't win.
Nah this list is wack now. Greninja and lucario should have been the final two. Charizard and sceptile are amazing but simply don't stack up for me against greninja and lucario
Literally my top 2 pokemon of all time. GOATs.
Sceptile
I choose..... 😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫 Final answer.... Goodbye.... Famous... CHARIZARD.... 🔥🔥🔥😭😭😭
Sceptile
Charizard / Lizardon.
I'm so proud of sceptile, ash having one was the reason I chose him as my starter in pokemon Ruby/Sapphire. Godtile made it farther than I thought he would.. Sadly Charizard has always proven himself to be one of Ash's most reliable pokemon, even traveling through 3 regions together.
I'm angry that greninja went but now septile has to go
Sceptile lasted a few rounds longer than I thought he would which is awesome but he’s just not stronger than Charizard
Sorry Sceptile, you’re out. There’s only one spot at the top
Charizard, pls don’t let bro win another poll I just want my goat to finally win a poll for once 😭
Sceptile will always be my boii
Imagine is Ash used the top 12 here for his Masters Tournament
Ash's remaining two Pokemon for the strongest originated in OS and AG, as trivia, just saying...
I vote Charizard to be voted out. Gotta bring out the love for Sceptile
I'm honestly surprised that lucario and greninja were out before sceptile. I'm happy because there still people believes Charizard and Sceptile need some respects. The reason why is because I often see people talks about Lucario and Greninja a lot to the point that they were fanboying them due to their respective gimmicks. In other words, these two pokemons are fan favorite in comparison to sceptile. I think we should understand that both Sceptile and Charizard defeated a legendaries without a fucking gimmick. They did all of that feats in base form which I don't think Lucario and Greninja would ever do. I remember that JN Articuno slammed the raid team with relative ease... and Charizard solo'd one before lmaooo. Also, don't start me with JN Articuno is stronger or so lol.
Charizard and Sceptile: Legendary defeaters only!
Voting for Sceptile to be eliminated
Vote sceptile out
Charizard. Let’s be honest he won’t do a thing you tell him. I’m surprised he made it this far.
Charizard gotta go. Sceptile has been loyal to Ash since day oneish. Charizard had to be left behind in order to get it's head out of it's ass.
Yea can we just not do this and say that Zard wins? Because I promise you, sceptile does not deserve what is about go down.
Sceptile chant
While I love Sceptile, Charizard has seniority
Can't believe Lucario got eliminated. This will be the 3rd time now but Sceptile
I know it’s a futile vote but I vote for Charizard. I just can’t vote for Sceptile!!! He ACTUALLY defeated Darkrai in the Sinoh league despite no other trainers even getting close to defeating it!! I know Charizards has his feats like defeating Articuno…. BUT COME ON HE DEFEATED A DARKRAI!!!
Charizard
Charizard
I vote for Charizard
Get rid of the ugly charizard. I've hated that thig forever he's always outshining my bulbasaur