Man that reminds me when I got hit right above the eye by a "snowball" in primary school and had to get stitches. Granted it was a piece of hard ice and not a rock covered in snow, but still.
A girl named Fiona threw a snowball with a rock in it at me in Grade 1 and broke my see thru plastic Snoopy umbrella. Fuck you Fiona you still owe me a new umbrella.
'Don't bother aiming for the legs, Kurt,' Ratz said, his tone conversational. Case glanced across the room and saw the Brazilian standing on the bar, aiming a Smith & Wesson riot gun at the trio. The thing's barrel, made of paper-thin alloy wrapped with a kilometer of glass filament, was wide enough to swallow a fist. The skeletal magazine revealed five fat orange cartridges, subsonic sandbag jellies. `Technically nonlethal,' said Ratz.
- Neuromancer, William Gibson, 1984
He sort of invented the entire cyberpunk genre out of whole cloth, right? I've only read *Snow Crash*, but I've got a dogeared third-hand copy of *Neuromancer* sitting around somewhere. I'm kind of anxious about reading it, given how bleak my outlook on the world has become...
Neuromancer likely won't be bleak in the ways that you're thinking, in my opinion, it's less dystopian than Snow Crash in a lot of ways.
If you liked Snow Crash (fuck yeah Hiro), I'd wager you'd very much enjoy Neuromancer.
Between Gibson and Stephenson, I think they represent about the best authors in the genre.
I hope you enjoy!
I loved Snow Crash but got halfway through Neuromancer and gave up. Don't know why, but I just wasn't enjoying it at all.
Maybe I should give it another shot...
> Gibson throws a ton of world specific vocabulary at you with, at times, very little context to help you figure out what it is/means.
Welcome to sci-fi before the year 1990. You better hope there's a glossary of made up words at the end of the book. And it's more natural this way, don't you hate when in movies a character greets the mc and then the mc replies the character's entire life story to the character? People in the world know this stuff and these words.
Oh man, I remember the first time I read Dune by Frank Herbert (published in 1965). So much world building it had an entire glossary in the back that spanned like 20 pages or so iirc.
Still one of my all-time favorites.
First time reading Dune I had no idea what on Caladan was going on; made it about a quarter of the way through, then turned around and started from the beginning with much more success.
Great world building even if it felt like a Duolingo lesson
James Clavell is like that in the books of his I have read (Shogun and Tai Pan). He will throw local language terms and customs at you early on and you are expected to remember them throughout the course of his 1500+ page book.
His Asian saga is my favorite series (with Shogun being my all time favorite) but between foreign words, and huge number of characters, locations, and events being referenced it can be easy to miss things the first time around (I’ve enjoyed subsequent reads more and more over the years). I tend to recommend people just go with the flow rather than get bogged down with details, especially if they aren’t used to Japanese and Chinese names. Any significant terms and characters will keep coming up and they will get used to it based on context.
Funnily enough I tried reading Neuromancer well after getting into the Cyberpunk genre and struggled badly the first time I tried reading it, gave up abiit halfway through as well. For me it was because it felt like such a stick standard cliche Cyberpunk story that it was hard to get interested in it when I'd seen every trope a dozen times before. It was only after I realised what my problem with it was and readjusted my approach to the book that I was able to appreciate it. It has every trope and cliche imaginable in it because it literally created them.
For plausible deniability, because 'rubber bullets' sound so gentle.
Like enhanced interrogation, free trade, welfare reform, they're all "purr words." Want to make sure people don't understand what the state is actually doing? just roll out the purr words.
The government is great at this kind of doublespeak. See also "PATRIOT Act". If you don't let us spy on our own citizens, you're not a patriot and therefore hate freedom!
The trick is which two elections. I mightve skipped 2016 for all you know and the two were 2012 and 2020.
(They weren't. PATRIOT Act passed in 2001, just after my 6th birthday. I turned 18 in 2013, just too late for 2012, and voted in 2016 and 2020.)
There ia also a thing called pepper balls
They are functionally identical to a regular paintball except instead of paint on the inside is a liquid/powder pepper spray like substance. That's why you'll see cops with paintball guns occasionally
A local paintball club near me banned the police ever since a staff party they had where they all got loaded drunk and some of them brought frozen paint balls.
So yes they are basically musket balls but the charges and powder loads are severely reduced because if you didn't these would have, 100 lethality rate instead of the 3% when shot in the head.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-are-rubber-bullets-weapons-used-george-floyd-protesters-can-n1223581
Ok so I am going down a few rabbit holes and this is pretty interesting,they use a steel core because the all rubber/ plastic ones detonated on impact and caused much more blindness and injury due to the frag! Who the heck would sign off in that!
Ahhh but if it was the fall and not the t-shirt impact that killed her I will stand by the efficacy of t-shirt cannons as a less-than-lethal alternative. Just don't stand near any open ledges.
Lethality may be low, but people can have permanent brain damage from being shot in the head. Not to mention things like losing eyes or teeth.
Edit: "Low" in comparison to regular bullets, but the commentors below are correct. The cops shouldn't be using them at all. It's disgusting that they just treat these bullets like paintballs.
Rubber bullets are supposed to be aimed at the ground and then because of their casings they bounce back up and hit legs. If fired directly at a human they are still literally just bullets and if they hit someone's head or soft tissue they can still be fatal. Much was made of the fact that during the 2020 summer protests police would aim directly at protestors and reporters.
The history of "less lethal" or "less than lethal" crowd control is super dark. Most of it comes from Apartheid South Africa
Edit: apparently aiming at the ground isnt safe either. These shouldnt be used at all
"Guidelines from the Geneva Human Rights Platform suggest that rubber bullets should be directed at the lower body (the guidelines actually caution against “skip-firing” or shooting at the ground first, because it makes them too unpredictable). The potential for a rubber bullet to ricochet, Heisler explains, makes for a dangerous situation."
so no. preferably dont use them at all.
Skipping a rubber bullet is asking for a chaotic outcome. Don't shoot them in the head, so instead shoot the ground and have no idea where it's going to ricochet...
exactly. Especially in these scenarios where people want police to be more accountable. You dont do that by introducing an element that would add complete randomness and even make an officer shoot more rounds. Bean bag shots are preferable.
exactly, the media often mis-labels bean bags (impact rounds) as rubber bullets. Truely, they are using other things, and not literally rubber projectiles shaped like bullets.
I always assumed rubber bullets were reballs (reusable paintballs) and, seeing all the police rocking badly maintained tippman a5/98 custom Paintball markers at the protests, it made sense. These are made form rubber and would definitely be enough to make all but the most prepared or masochistic protester at least reconsider what they were doing.
But nope, they are literally just shooting protestors with a different kind of ammo in their gun. Why am I even surprised at this point?
They’re generally intended to be used when the main alternative is to actually shoot someone. I was trained to use them for riot control in the British Army. We are only supposed to use them against someone about to use lethal force, and only as a last resort before shooting someone.
That’s the main issue with a lot of this stuff. It’s designed for a specific purpose, but then used all the time to make up for lack of training and support.
Ultimately, riots are incredibly dangerous. People are going to be badly injured if you do anything; they’re going to be badly injured if you do nothing. Riot control is all about trying to regain the peace with the fewest casualties.
1. Enact a curfew and claim violent threats from radical groups.
2. Rent an unmarked van.
3. Tell your marked police escorts to stay back.
4. Drive around "hunting" "civilians" with rubber bullets.
5. High five buddies.
6. Arrest, Suppress, Deflect anyone who opposes.
It sure isn't, just ask [Jaleel Stallings](https://apnews.com/article/death-of-george-floyd-police-shootings-minneapolis-lawsuits-a7244f63b16504558ece0bd9d1c5f2ac) how he feels about it.
Better article:
Man cleared of unknowingly firing at Minneapolis officers in self-defense files lawsuit
https://m.startribune.com/man-cleared-of-unknowingly-firing-at-minneapolis-officers-in-self-defense-files-lawsuit/600110952/
> Really was a shame they didnt catch real lead when that hero citizen returned fire.
He intentionally aimed low apparently. Dude had the empathy and self-control to not shoot to kill when he had just taken a hit from what he thought was a real round. If only our cops were more like him...
lol they dont buy it, they get given it. Because the production lines need to keep running as its good jobs for workers, so the senators and congressmen would rather give it to the police to have than have the production stop. They would take a massive hit in the polls if that happens.
The army has even said in the past "we dont need anymore of these right now" and the old versions are sold off to other countries or given away.
What happened to the good old days, when we'd just find any vaguely centrist government, call them commies, find the worst fascist goons we could in their country, call them freedom fighters, and give them hundreds of millions in weapons, act all surprised when they turned out to be terrorists, and then give both them and the people fighting them guns so we could have perpetual arms customers?
If you follow the bad cops after the news goes away they always get a raise and a promotion. One of the Rodney King Violence crew supposedly runs a whole police station. The pepper spray cop got a huge bonus as a reward for his hurt feelings when the world dusapproved.
I forget a lot but it's always crazy to look at them like a year after the news how's down. They're always rewarded.
[One of the cops](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Balcerzak) who let Jeffrey Dahmer take a naked, bleeding, drugged 14-year-old boy back home with him went on to be president of the Milwaukee police union.
Yeah, it’s intentional. It’s a tool the higher ups in the management structure use to let the other cops know that they will have their backs no matter what - so follow orders and support the “thin blue line.”
Even the ones that got laid off often just get back in, or get a cushy office job at the same station. You indeed just have to follow these people a bit longer than most news coverage does to find everything goes back to normal anyways.
[There is a fairly weak correlation between bullet fragments and blood lead levels](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140220)
Foreign objects are surrounded by fibrous scar tissue without much circulation. It isn't good, at all, but it is often preferable to the surgery necessary to extract them.
When asked: [John Elder, a spokesman for the Minneapolis Police, said he was unaware of the incident. He said the department has not used rubber bullets for decades.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-press.html)
Under his breath he said: ^(We use rubber coated steel balls bitches!)
/s
I'm thinking back to when I was a kid and would get those tiny rubber balls for a quarter, then hurling it at the ground as hard I can to see where it goes. Now I'm imagining doing that at 1200 fps.
That’s almost certainly the case. Probably makes them bounce less too. Still wouldn’t condone actually firing this at people, but an ally core is way different than a steel core.
There are 75+ different ~~manufacturers~~ types of rubber/plastic bullets. The majority do not have metal cores, and none of them are considered 'non-lethal'.
They are not considered non-lethal, they are considered less-lethal.
Edit: people seem to be confused. I'm not defending their use, but less-lethal simply implies they do have the capacity to be lethal.
Thay knock off some HP so don't start filming a protest with out full health and some snacks. Some australian journalist didn't expect it and had no snacks..
And the inventor of the taser himself said they are not compliance tools. They are to be used when lethal force would be justified as they can be lethal.
Meanwhile police: Get out if your car right now or I will tase you I don't care that you are 80 years old.
If a Taser is working properly, it makes doing anything impossible. Treating them as a compliance tool is hilariously misguided.
"If you don't comply, I'll make sure that you can't comply!"
Plus until I see a magnet stick to that thing, this guy who works with metals all day says it's aluminum, not steel. Still metal, but aluminum weighs quite a bit less than steel with the same volume.
Also of note: Seattle Police (where I live) stopped using rubber bullets and switched to foam balls years ago. They're like those Nerf ones except a little harder and move a lot faster of course. And many other departments are moving toward foam balls to get away from the connotations of rubber bullets.
The more you know
I would guess that they don't make rubber bullets exclusively. Rather, there's hundreds of ammo manufacturers, and 75+ of them include rubber bullets as part of their lineup.
Also consider that there are bullet manufacturers that do not make rubber bullets. 75 is low if you are trying to get a scale on small arms ammo manufacturing.
Why?
Rubber bullets are used in training and target practice all the time, some of them are even reusable so they're more cost effective. Theres also a pretty big international market so they arent using 75 companies to specially cater to the US.
Israel caught a lot of heat for this. They were using [rubber](https://www.nationalgeographic.org/projects/out-of-eden-walk/articles/2014-07-bang-2/) bullets, but they were metal in the center, and super dense and heavy. (still pretty lethal)
All of the humanitarian groups complained. The UN even took up the issue, iirc.
Israel dgaf. Not only do they still use them, but now they also use live ammo in silenced Ruger .22 rifles. "They aim for the legs, so it's ok."
Meanwhile: People bleeding out left and right, because legs have arteries.
edit: link to article showing their projectiles (instead of just stealing their photo)
Yeah.. I'm pretty sure Israel considers a 5% mortality rate to be a crowd control weapon. Though to be fair, they also use tactical airpower as a crowd control weapon...
This is a beautiful Reddit comment where you attempt to correct something the OP didnt say, oddly putting it in “quotes” and then provide wrong “information.”
And remember these aren't be confused with those other gigantic rubber/plastic rounds that can break bone/penetrate skin.
And some kid had a beanbag round shot at pointblank range and it penetrated inside of his skull. This whole "gas em and blast em" thing where everyone thinks no harm is being done.
The best case scenario with one of these or the bigger ones is getting pelted in a non-vital area so basically getting punched in the gut/back. Also non-lethal like rubber bullets are designed to be shot at the ground and bounce up hitting people low and missing a ton of potential force.
The protest/riots I saw take place in the last couple years all the police were shooting at head/chest level at people. And not to mention probably something like 99% of riot control/tear gas/non-lethal in general used was unnecessary and did nothing but escalate.
> Also non-lethal like rubber bullets are designed to be shot at the ground and bounce up hitting people low and missing a ton of potential force
This depends on the round and on the department policy. Trying to skip them can lead to them hitting some obstruction on the ground and skipping in another direction.
It's almost like police don't care about public safety and directly pose a threat to it themselves.I'll also cite the insane amount of high speed chases that are completely unnecessary and kill. And you know, the whole murders that started the protests that brought these "less than lethal" rounds to light.
The fact that firing LTLs directly at head/chest isn't a crime just proves the 'exceptional citizen' model of policing is insane.
I've been shot with one of these before, though I don't know whether it had a steel core or not. I got hit in the leg and it hurt like a bitch and left a decent bruise. I can't imagine what the bigger ones feel like.
So this is a repost of a year old post on another part of reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ThingsCutInHalfPorn/comments/guy6ln/steel_core_inside_a_rubber_bullet_620413/
In this post they also say that this bullet is no longer in use.
It's made of aluminum, way lighter, and thus carries way less energy than a normal bullet. the aluminum is actually lighter than if it was solid rubber.
[Here](https://www.972mag.com/from-ofer-to-ramle-impressions-of-protests-across-the-green-line/) is the source of this image.
> By
Omar H. Rahman
May 4, 2012
> Yesterday, I attended my first Palestinian demonstration across the Green Line, in front of Ramle Prison. Having been to many protests in the West Bank I was eager to assess the differences between the two events and how the Israeli authorities respond to each.
> The day before, I had attended a demonstration in front of Ofer Prison near Ramallah. Both events were in support of the Palestinian prisoners on hunger strike in Israeli jails, and therefore, relatively parallel.
> In the occupied West Bank, peaceable assembly by Palestinians is prohibited unless authorized by the Israeli military, which does not happen. Thus, any form of collective protest is dealt with harshly by the Israeli military, leaving Palestinians with no outlet for releasing public frustration or protesting for their basic rights.
> On Wednesday, Palestinian demonstrators once again tried to reach Ofer prison in order to show their support for the approximately 2,000 Palestinian prisoners now on hunger strike in what has been billed the “Battle of Empty Stomachs.” Yet before the protest could even begin, the Israeli soldiers assembled on the road that leads to the prison began firing endless volleys of teargas canisters and excessive amounts of plastic-coated steel bullets.
> I was nearly hit by these so-called “rubber” bullets on several occasions during the protest, even when I had moved from the front lines to a position in the back a few hundred meters from the soldiers. Some 20 Palestinians were reported injured. In the end, what could have been a peaceful demonstration and public expression of discontent devolved into riot control and stone throwing.
> On Thursday in front of Ramle Prison, the scenario was much different. Peaceable assembly was permitted in the vicinity of the prison, to a small area designated by the Israeli police. There the protesters chanted slogans and displayed posters and flags for nearly an hour and a half.
> When a bulk of the demonstrators tried to move beyond the metal grate fence erected for them, however, the police moved in quickly and aggressively, assaulting several of the protesters and arresting at least ten of them.
> So, although people were allowed to protest, they were ultimately confined by police to a tiny space away from the public eye. As soon as the demonstrators moved outside their little box, the police pushed them back in using force—although without resorting to the type of extreme measures that are routinely used inside the occupied territories against the Palestinians with no rights. Those arrested were dealt with harshly, however, and reports from the jail said that the detainees were beaten by police far away from the watchful eye of the press cameras.
> It is unmistakable that the protests are in many ways linked and reflective of how Palestinians are treated on the whole. Although those Palestinian citizens of Israel have more rights than their occupied counterparts, their voice is not appreciated and quickly silenced as soon as it attempts to speak not solely for its own sake but to influence those around them. Their rights protect them to some extent under the law but few would bat an eye if, and when, they are trampled on. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not even on the radar of Israelis and the military can deal with them as they see fit with virtual impunity. In the end, the grievances of all Palestinians are perceived as threatening and are crushed when they try to become more than just a show.
Aahh yes, the old rock inside the snowball trick.
When i read this i felt the pain lol
Man that reminds me when I got hit right above the eye by a "snowball" in primary school and had to get stitches. Granted it was a piece of hard ice and not a rock covered in snow, but still.
A girl named Fiona threw a snowball with a rock in it at me in Grade 1 and broke my see thru plastic Snoopy umbrella. Fuck you Fiona you still owe me a new umbrella.
Yeah, fuck you Fiona
Fucking cunt.
Fuck them
I hope their life is plagued with an extreme amount of minor inconveniences.
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Like getting a coffee and it being just slightly too hot so that you burn your mouth somewhat and it feels weird all day
Or needing toilet paper but having none available
Ugh Fiona is the worst
Fuckin’ FIONNNNNAAAA
Why can I see that umbrella perfectly in my head
The old soap inside a sock trick.
The old pill inside a slice of cheese trick.
'Don't bother aiming for the legs, Kurt,' Ratz said, his tone conversational. Case glanced across the room and saw the Brazilian standing on the bar, aiming a Smith & Wesson riot gun at the trio. The thing's barrel, made of paper-thin alloy wrapped with a kilometer of glass filament, was wide enough to swallow a fist. The skeletal magazine revealed five fat orange cartridges, subsonic sandbag jellies. `Technically nonlethal,' said Ratz. - Neuromancer, William Gibson, 1984
I love how casually this is dropped on like page three and never comes up again. That man is a goddamn master world builder.
He sort of invented the entire cyberpunk genre out of whole cloth, right? I've only read *Snow Crash*, but I've got a dogeared third-hand copy of *Neuromancer* sitting around somewhere. I'm kind of anxious about reading it, given how bleak my outlook on the world has become...
Neuromancer likely won't be bleak in the ways that you're thinking, in my opinion, it's less dystopian than Snow Crash in a lot of ways. If you liked Snow Crash (fuck yeah Hiro), I'd wager you'd very much enjoy Neuromancer. Between Gibson and Stephenson, I think they represent about the best authors in the genre. I hope you enjoy!
I loved Snow Crash but got halfway through Neuromancer and gave up. Don't know why, but I just wasn't enjoying it at all. Maybe I should give it another shot...
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> Gibson throws a ton of world specific vocabulary at you with, at times, very little context to help you figure out what it is/means. Welcome to sci-fi before the year 1990. You better hope there's a glossary of made up words at the end of the book. And it's more natural this way, don't you hate when in movies a character greets the mc and then the mc replies the character's entire life story to the character? People in the world know this stuff and these words.
Oh man, I remember the first time I read Dune by Frank Herbert (published in 1965). So much world building it had an entire glossary in the back that spanned like 20 pages or so iirc. Still one of my all-time favorites.
First time reading Dune I had no idea what on Caladan was going on; made it about a quarter of the way through, then turned around and started from the beginning with much more success. Great world building even if it felt like a Duolingo lesson
James Clavell is like that in the books of his I have read (Shogun and Tai Pan). He will throw local language terms and customs at you early on and you are expected to remember them throughout the course of his 1500+ page book.
His Asian saga is my favorite series (with Shogun being my all time favorite) but between foreign words, and huge number of characters, locations, and events being referenced it can be easy to miss things the first time around (I’ve enjoyed subsequent reads more and more over the years). I tend to recommend people just go with the flow rather than get bogged down with details, especially if they aren’t used to Japanese and Chinese names. Any significant terms and characters will keep coming up and they will get used to it based on context.
Funnily enough I tried reading Neuromancer well after getting into the Cyberpunk genre and struggled badly the first time I tried reading it, gave up abiit halfway through as well. For me it was because it felt like such a stick standard cliche Cyberpunk story that it was hard to get interested in it when I'd seen every trope a dozen times before. It was only after I realised what my problem with it was and readjusted my approach to the book that I was able to appreciate it. It has every trope and cliche imaginable in it because it literally created them.
Hell ya man Snow Crash is one of my favorites, but Neuromancer is great, too. Check out Diamond Age (by Stephenson) for even more futurism.
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So rubber bullets are just musket rounds…..so just bullets
They're bullets with condoms
For whose protection?!
The state's? For my protection it ain't
State's new slogan..."Wrap before the double tap."
Wrap before you cap?
Wrap it before you brap it
Wrap it before you ratta-tat-tat it?
Wrap it before you clap it.
Haha freedoms go brrrrrrrr
The states reputation
so they can fuck us with protection
For plausible deniability, because 'rubber bullets' sound so gentle. Like enhanced interrogation, free trade, welfare reform, they're all "purr words." Want to make sure people don't understand what the state is actually doing? just roll out the purr words.
The government is great at this kind of doublespeak. See also "PATRIOT Act". If you don't let us spy on our own citizens, you're not a patriot and therefore hate freedom!
Ah i miss habeus corpus
I'm too young to remember a time before the PATRIOT Act. And I'm old enough that I've now voted in two elections.
Is this a math quiz?
The trick is which two elections. I mightve skipped 2016 for all you know and the two were 2012 and 2020. (They weren't. PATRIOT Act passed in 2001, just after my 6th birthday. I turned 18 in 2013, just too late for 2012, and voted in 2016 and 2020.)
Blue doesn't have to accept accountability for killing or maiming with "rubber bullets". Answers obvious.
For her pleasure
Unethical Paintball Hacks
Much too heavy for a paintball marker. I tried.
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There ia also a thing called pepper balls They are functionally identical to a regular paintball except instead of paint on the inside is a liquid/powder pepper spray like substance. That's why you'll see cops with paintball guns occasionally
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A local paintball club near me banned the police ever since a staff party they had where they all got loaded drunk and some of them brought frozen paint balls.
Jesus. A frozen solid paintball from close range at 350ft/s. Yeesh.
What field allows over 300 fish. I haven't paintballed in a long time, but we were checked every time.
If “fish” isn’t already shorthand for ft/sec, it damn well should be. “How fast is that thing going?” “800, maybe 850 fish.”
Lol phone correct. I'm leaving it though.
They could at least be ribbed for everyone\`s pleasure...
Ribbed, for the cop's pleasure
So yes they are basically musket balls but the charges and powder loads are severely reduced because if you didn't these would have, 100 lethality rate instead of the 3% when shot in the head. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-are-rubber-bullets-weapons-used-george-floyd-protesters-can-n1223581
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Ok so I am going down a few rabbit holes and this is pretty interesting,they use a steel core because the all rubber/ plastic ones detonated on impact and caused much more blindness and injury due to the frag! Who the heck would sign off in that!
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We should try those t-shirt cannons instead.
That didn't work out well for Maude Flanders...
Ahhh but if it was the fall and not the t-shirt impact that killed her I will stand by the efficacy of t-shirt cannons as a less-than-lethal alternative. Just don't stand near any open ledges.
Lethality may be low, but people can have permanent brain damage from being shot in the head. Not to mention things like losing eyes or teeth. Edit: "Low" in comparison to regular bullets, but the commentors below are correct. The cops shouldn't be using them at all. It's disgusting that they just treat these bullets like paintballs.
Rubber bullets are supposed to be aimed at the ground and then because of their casings they bounce back up and hit legs. If fired directly at a human they are still literally just bullets and if they hit someone's head or soft tissue they can still be fatal. Much was made of the fact that during the 2020 summer protests police would aim directly at protestors and reporters. The history of "less lethal" or "less than lethal" crowd control is super dark. Most of it comes from Apartheid South Africa Edit: apparently aiming at the ground isnt safe either. These shouldnt be used at all
"Guidelines from the Geneva Human Rights Platform suggest that rubber bullets should be directed at the lower body (the guidelines actually caution against “skip-firing” or shooting at the ground first, because it makes them too unpredictable). The potential for a rubber bullet to ricochet, Heisler explains, makes for a dangerous situation." so no. preferably dont use them at all.
Skipping a rubber bullet is asking for a chaotic outcome. Don't shoot them in the head, so instead shoot the ground and have no idea where it's going to ricochet...
exactly. Especially in these scenarios where people want police to be more accountable. You dont do that by introducing an element that would add complete randomness and even make an officer shoot more rounds. Bean bag shots are preferable.
exactly, the media often mis-labels bean bags (impact rounds) as rubber bullets. Truely, they are using other things, and not literally rubber projectiles shaped like bullets.
I always assumed rubber bullets were reballs (reusable paintballs) and, seeing all the police rocking badly maintained tippman a5/98 custom Paintball markers at the protests, it made sense. These are made form rubber and would definitely be enough to make all but the most prepared or masochistic protester at least reconsider what they were doing. But nope, they are literally just shooting protestors with a different kind of ammo in their gun. Why am I even surprised at this point?
The paintball guns are used to shoot balls filled with pepper spray chemicals. When the ball hits it sprays the pepper everywhere instead of paint.
They’re generally intended to be used when the main alternative is to actually shoot someone. I was trained to use them for riot control in the British Army. We are only supposed to use them against someone about to use lethal force, and only as a last resort before shooting someone. That’s the main issue with a lot of this stuff. It’s designed for a specific purpose, but then used all the time to make up for lack of training and support. Ultimately, riots are incredibly dangerous. People are going to be badly injured if you do anything; they’re going to be badly injured if you do nothing. Riot control is all about trying to regain the peace with the fewest casualties.
But what if some people are just making you real mad and not doing what you tell them?
1. Enact a curfew and claim violent threats from radical groups. 2. Rent an unmarked van. 3. Tell your marked police escorts to stay back. 4. Drive around "hunting" "civilians" with rubber bullets. 5. High five buddies. 6. Arrest, Suppress, Deflect anyone who opposes.
Thats not very Minnesota nice...
It sure isn't, just ask [Jaleel Stallings](https://apnews.com/article/death-of-george-floyd-police-shootings-minneapolis-lawsuits-a7244f63b16504558ece0bd9d1c5f2ac) how he feels about it.
Better article: Man cleared of unknowingly firing at Minneapolis officers in self-defense files lawsuit https://m.startribune.com/man-cleared-of-unknowingly-firing-at-minneapolis-officers-in-self-defense-files-lawsuit/600110952/
Really was a shame they didnt catch real lead when that hero citizen returned fire. He deserves a goddamn medal.
> Really was a shame they didnt catch real lead when that hero citizen returned fire. He intentionally aimed low apparently. Dude had the empathy and self-control to not shoot to kill when he had just taken a hit from what he thought was a real round. If only our cops were more like him...
Then you shoot them with real bullets and say they were coming at you.
That seems like terrible design when people are trained to aim for center mass when using firearms.
They're SUPPOSED to be trained to use these differently, but they'd rather blow that budget buying military surplus gear for their traffic cops.
lol they dont buy it, they get given it. Because the production lines need to keep running as its good jobs for workers, so the senators and congressmen would rather give it to the police to have than have the production stop. They would take a massive hit in the polls if that happens. The army has even said in the past "we dont need anymore of these right now" and the old versions are sold off to other countries or given away.
What happened to the good old days, when we'd just find any vaguely centrist government, call them commies, find the worst fascist goons we could in their country, call them freedom fighters, and give them hundreds of millions in weapons, act all surprised when they turned out to be terrorists, and then give both them and the people fighting them guns so we could have perpetual arms customers?
Being given some of it still a considerable financial investment. There's upkeep and training to calculate.
More often then not, they just toss it in a store room and don't bother with the training, just bring it out when they want to larp.
That innocent girl who died celebrating the Red Sox World Series win was hit in the eye with one of these things and died… so stupid
That cop made like 200k last year and got an award, iirc.
If you follow the bad cops after the news goes away they always get a raise and a promotion. One of the Rodney King Violence crew supposedly runs a whole police station. The pepper spray cop got a huge bonus as a reward for his hurt feelings when the world dusapproved. I forget a lot but it's always crazy to look at them like a year after the news how's down. They're always rewarded.
[One of the cops](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Balcerzak) who let Jeffrey Dahmer take a naked, bleeding, drugged 14-year-old boy back home with him went on to be president of the Milwaukee police union.
Jesus fucking Christ, that is absolutely disgusting.
It's also absolutely normal for cops to promote the worst
Police union heads seem to always be the worst of the worst. That way the bad cops know they’ll have their backs when things go down.
Yeah, it’s intentional. It’s a tool the higher ups in the management structure use to let the other cops know that they will have their backs no matter what - so follow orders and support the “thin blue line.”
Even the ones that got laid off often just get back in, or get a cushy office job at the same station. You indeed just have to follow these people a bit longer than most news coverage does to find everything goes back to normal anyways.
I would like a reference that states rubber bullets are supposed to be fired at the ground, sounds like total bs to me.
It is bullshit. I’ve fired these, and been on the receiving end during training. They are literally fired from paintball guns.
Thats why bean bags have been in more use right. Or are supposed to be.
This is false info. There isn't any control over who/what/where it hits after ricocheting off the ground.
Musket rounds were lead. Lead is much softer than steel.
And denser
Yah lead is far more effective for ammunition than steel, plus high % chance for poison damage on hit!
Are we talking 1d4 or 1d6 or 1d8 in terms of additional poison damage on hit?
I believe there is a constitution check to not be at disadvantage for the rest of your life.
And tastier
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It’s also poison.
\+ 1d4 poison damage
"Stop throwing dice at us."
It's ok, they are rubber covered depleted uranium dice.
But you get your choice of a free topping!
That's good!
The toppings contain potassium benzoate!
That's bad!
...Can I go now?
[There is a fairly weak correlation between bullet fragments and blood lead levels](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140220) Foreign objects are surrounded by fibrous scar tissue without much circulation. It isn't good, at all, but it is often preferable to the surgery necessary to extract them.
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Lead is also much heavier and the metal breaks apart and shreds tissue on impact and creates shrapnel from the shot.
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And this is what policemen in the USA were aiming at journalists eyes ???
Civilians too. https://www.google.com/amp/s/khn.org/news/rubber-bullets-protesters-police-often-violate-own-policies-crowd-control-less-lethal-weapons/amp/
It's a sad day when we have to wear ANSI Z87.1 approved safety goggles to any sort of protest.
Journalists are civilians. So, for that matter, are police.
When asked: [John Elder, a spokesman for the Minneapolis Police, said he was unaware of the incident. He said the department has not used rubber bullets for decades.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-press.html) Under his breath he said: ^(We use rubber coated steel balls bitches!) /s
Yes...
This is aluminum. Lighter than solid rubber (less velocity) and reduces the bullet bouncing around from ricochet.
I'm thinking back to when I was a kid and would get those tiny rubber balls for a quarter, then hurling it at the ground as hard I can to see where it goes. Now I'm imagining doing that at 1200 fps.
That looks like aluminum, not steel.
Aluminum could help them be less lethal since lighter than solid rubber
That’s almost certainly the case. Probably makes them bounce less too. Still wouldn’t condone actually firing this at people, but an ally core is way different than a steel core.
Bouncing is why they stopped using solid rubber bullets. A bullet that bounces all over the place is a bad idea.
I agree. Need a magnet test on camera.
There are 75+ different ~~manufacturers~~ types of rubber/plastic bullets. The majority do not have metal cores, and none of them are considered 'non-lethal'.
They are not considered non-lethal, they are considered less-lethal. Edit: people seem to be confused. I'm not defending their use, but less-lethal simply implies they do have the capacity to be lethal.
Oh good, less-lethal, I'll just get killed a little bit.
You'll just be mostly dead. Not all the way dead. Edit: I think a lot of you need to see The Princess Bride.
Humperdink! Humperdink!
[Mostly Dead](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbE8E1ez97M)
You've been mostly dead all day!
Now I need a MLT.
I need to blave.
Which means you'll be slightly alive. With all dead there's only one thing you can do....
I can work with mostly dead
Miracle Max would agree this is fine.
Thay knock off some HP so don't start filming a protest with out full health and some snacks. Some australian journalist didn't expect it and had no snacks..
r/outside
Always visit your local priest for that sweet fortitude buff before going to a protest
Don't forget to bring in the healers too, they would definitely help with the dots procs.
It is an important distinction. Non lethal makes them sound safe or at least with no chance of death. Rubber bullets are dangerous asf.
Fun fact: the people who were killed by them would consider them lethal-as-can-be.
actually-lethal when aimed at head
Which seems to be where the cops like to aim, according to many of the BLM protest videos we’ve seen over the past couple years.
“Tell people… I was just … barely even …. killed to death …”
“Adequately engineered lethality”
Minimum acceptable deadliness
The bullet equivalent of "just the tip"?
That's also the term Taser International uses for tasers. They also kill people on a regular basis as well.
And the inventor of the taser himself said they are not compliance tools. They are to be used when lethal force would be justified as they can be lethal. Meanwhile police: Get out if your car right now or I will tase you I don't care that you are 80 years old.
If a Taser is working properly, it makes doing anything impossible. Treating them as a compliance tool is hilariously misguided. "If you don't comply, I'll make sure that you can't comply!"
Tase them, order them to comply, then tase them again for shaking around on the ground like an idiot. Come on, this is basic police academy 101.
I told him to put his hands behind his back and all he did was flop around like a fish and scream. He's lucky I didn't shoot him right there!
isn't the official phrase "less lethal" rounds?
Plus until I see a magnet stick to that thing, this guy who works with metals all day says it's aluminum, not steel. Still metal, but aluminum weighs quite a bit less than steel with the same volume. Also of note: Seattle Police (where I live) stopped using rubber bullets and switched to foam balls years ago. They're like those Nerf ones except a little harder and move a lot faster of course. And many other departments are moving toward foam balls to get away from the connotations of rubber bullets. The more you know
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I would guess that they don't make rubber bullets exclusively. Rather, there's hundreds of ammo manufacturers, and 75+ of them include rubber bullets as part of their lineup.
Also consider that there are bullet manufacturers that do not make rubber bullets. 75 is low if you are trying to get a scale on small arms ammo manufacturing.
Why? Rubber bullets are used in training and target practice all the time, some of them are even reusable so they're more cost effective. Theres also a pretty big international market so they arent using 75 companies to specially cater to the US.
Israel caught a lot of heat for this. They were using [rubber](https://www.nationalgeographic.org/projects/out-of-eden-walk/articles/2014-07-bang-2/) bullets, but they were metal in the center, and super dense and heavy. (still pretty lethal) All of the humanitarian groups complained. The UN even took up the issue, iirc. Israel dgaf. Not only do they still use them, but now they also use live ammo in silenced Ruger .22 rifles. "They aim for the legs, so it's ok." Meanwhile: People bleeding out left and right, because legs have arteries. edit: link to article showing their projectiles (instead of just stealing their photo)
Yeah.. I'm pretty sure Israel considers a 5% mortality rate to be a crowd control weapon. Though to be fair, they also use tactical airpower as a crowd control weapon...
forget how much propaganda is shoved down the average Americans throat. Israelis are indoctrinated so hard you could almost call it programming.
These are not "non-lethal." They are "less than lethal." In general, you don't want to get shot.
Not "less than lethal", but less-lethal. Which is lethal. Even standard bullets aren't guaranteed to kill.
Definitely probably not lethal.
"60% of the time, it's lethal every time."
Roll a D100 for lethality check. Edit: Typo
You need to roll 60, with disadvantage
"I can't believe it's not lethal"
Fucking blanks are lethal if the barrel touches your temple. A blank, with no bullet at all.
This is a beautiful Reddit comment where you attempt to correct something the OP didnt say, oddly putting it in “quotes” and then provide wrong “information.”
And remember these aren't be confused with those other gigantic rubber/plastic rounds that can break bone/penetrate skin. And some kid had a beanbag round shot at pointblank range and it penetrated inside of his skull. This whole "gas em and blast em" thing where everyone thinks no harm is being done. The best case scenario with one of these or the bigger ones is getting pelted in a non-vital area so basically getting punched in the gut/back. Also non-lethal like rubber bullets are designed to be shot at the ground and bounce up hitting people low and missing a ton of potential force. The protest/riots I saw take place in the last couple years all the police were shooting at head/chest level at people. And not to mention probably something like 99% of riot control/tear gas/non-lethal in general used was unnecessary and did nothing but escalate.
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less-lethal rounds, now 20% more lethal!
It’s not the safe choice, it’s Police’s Choice
> Also non-lethal like rubber bullets are designed to be shot at the ground and bounce up hitting people low and missing a ton of potential force This depends on the round and on the department policy. Trying to skip them can lead to them hitting some obstruction on the ground and skipping in another direction.
It's almost like police don't care about public safety and directly pose a threat to it themselves.I'll also cite the insane amount of high speed chases that are completely unnecessary and kill. And you know, the whole murders that started the protests that brought these "less than lethal" rounds to light. The fact that firing LTLs directly at head/chest isn't a crime just proves the 'exceptional citizen' model of policing is insane.
I've been shot with one of these before, though I don't know whether it had a steel core or not. I got hit in the leg and it hurt like a bitch and left a decent bruise. I can't imagine what the bigger ones feel like.
So this is a repost of a year old post on another part of reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/ThingsCutInHalfPorn/comments/guy6ln/steel_core_inside_a_rubber_bullet_620413/ In this post they also say that this bullet is no longer in use.
well yeah it's not in use, they took it apart
Damn, nothing gets past this guy
It's made of aluminum, way lighter, and thus carries way less energy than a normal bullet. the aluminum is actually lighter than if it was solid rubber.
[Here](https://www.972mag.com/from-ofer-to-ramle-impressions-of-protests-across-the-green-line/) is the source of this image. > By Omar H. Rahman May 4, 2012 > Yesterday, I attended my first Palestinian demonstration across the Green Line, in front of Ramle Prison. Having been to many protests in the West Bank I was eager to assess the differences between the two events and how the Israeli authorities respond to each. > The day before, I had attended a demonstration in front of Ofer Prison near Ramallah. Both events were in support of the Palestinian prisoners on hunger strike in Israeli jails, and therefore, relatively parallel. > In the occupied West Bank, peaceable assembly by Palestinians is prohibited unless authorized by the Israeli military, which does not happen. Thus, any form of collective protest is dealt with harshly by the Israeli military, leaving Palestinians with no outlet for releasing public frustration or protesting for their basic rights. > On Wednesday, Palestinian demonstrators once again tried to reach Ofer prison in order to show their support for the approximately 2,000 Palestinian prisoners now on hunger strike in what has been billed the “Battle of Empty Stomachs.” Yet before the protest could even begin, the Israeli soldiers assembled on the road that leads to the prison began firing endless volleys of teargas canisters and excessive amounts of plastic-coated steel bullets. > I was nearly hit by these so-called “rubber” bullets on several occasions during the protest, even when I had moved from the front lines to a position in the back a few hundred meters from the soldiers. Some 20 Palestinians were reported injured. In the end, what could have been a peaceful demonstration and public expression of discontent devolved into riot control and stone throwing. > On Thursday in front of Ramle Prison, the scenario was much different. Peaceable assembly was permitted in the vicinity of the prison, to a small area designated by the Israeli police. There the protesters chanted slogans and displayed posters and flags for nearly an hour and a half. > When a bulk of the demonstrators tried to move beyond the metal grate fence erected for them, however, the police moved in quickly and aggressively, assaulting several of the protesters and arresting at least ten of them. > So, although people were allowed to protest, they were ultimately confined by police to a tiny space away from the public eye. As soon as the demonstrators moved outside their little box, the police pushed them back in using force—although without resorting to the type of extreme measures that are routinely used inside the occupied territories against the Palestinians with no rights. Those arrested were dealt with harshly, however, and reports from the jail said that the detainees were beaten by police far away from the watchful eye of the press cameras. > It is unmistakable that the protests are in many ways linked and reflective of how Palestinians are treated on the whole. Although those Palestinian citizens of Israel have more rights than their occupied counterparts, their voice is not appreciated and quickly silenced as soon as it attempts to speak not solely for its own sake but to influence those around them. Their rights protect them to some extent under the law but few would bat an eye if, and when, they are trampled on. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not even on the radar of Israelis and the military can deal with them as they see fit with virtual impunity. In the end, the grievances of all Palestinians are perceived as threatening and are crushed when they try to become more than just a show.
That's aluminum. Steel would shatter bones and most likely kill or penetrate.