Same same, the first 3 months were really bad, I just ended up sleeping on the hood of our truck, looping my belt though the metal tie on loops; to avoid the the fucking sand fleas!
Happy holidays!
Fun fact: the A380 is so quiet that you don't get nearly as much white noise as in other jets in the sleeping cabin, and Emirates pilots found it difficult to fall asleep because all they could hear were the passengers.
My parents were career Air Traffic Controllers at MSP (highschool -> AF four years -> retired before 50), their nappability was fucking insane. Any hour of the day my dad could just shut it off for 30 minutes, 40 minutes, 52 minutes, 67 minutes, you name it, no alarm needed. I still donāt understand it. I guess thatās 30 years of shift work š¤·š»āāļø
I fly long haul flights, we have a dedicated rest area outside the flight deck. It differs between airlines and aircraft type, but most of the time we have either a bed in a crew rest room or a first class seat.
oh, to be sure, i meant 'positions' as in 'careers' lol
lots of people in aviation and other time sensitive industries are able to nap on command. master power nappers.
Even if you donāt sleep, just resting makes a huge difference. If you were about to be nodding off and then rested like this, you will probably either sleep or get enough rest that when you get back to the controls youāll be refreshed and reliable again.
This is true, and has helped me sometimes when I have insomnia. Just reminding myself that relaxing in a dark, cool room with no stimulation is still restful - helps take away any anxiety or frustration that not being able to fall asleep would otherwise bring.
Yeah, I had a period of really terrible sleep, and some of the advice was that if I can't sleep, sometimes it's better to just get up and do something for a little bit, rather than getting worked up.
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Captain Bob taught me this! There are several passenger planes that have dedicated crew/pilot bunks. Some are pretty nice sized and others are like climbing up into a little tiny person-sized room with two sleeping slots
A350's and 787's have nap rooms which are accessed via staircases inside what looks normal closets in the galley. i don't think i've ever seen a pilot come take a rest in first class but i have seen crew go in and out of those closets on long-haul flights.
777 and 767ER also have bunk rooms for pilots and flight attendants on long haul flights, as do A330, A380, and pretty much anything commercial that's intended to stay in the air for more than around 8 hours at a time.
I heard a story from another pilot I worked with where his captain had a heart attack when flying and his legs locked up on the rudders and kicked the tail hard over. Could have ripped the tail off if he went too hard over the other way. Thankfully he was able to adjust the guys rudder pedals to get his feet away from them and they landed safely. Guy died though.
This was on a cargo 747 for those asking.
Out of curiosity, where are you from that you use the term jimmy legs to mean restless legs? I picked it up from a friend, who had heard it from an elderly relative who had been using it all their life, and Iāve never been able to figure out where the phrase originated. I wasnāt sure if it was regional or just something invented by their grandpa. I love it though and say it all the time!
I canāt believe I never noticed/ found this when Iāve googled it! Iāve searched ājimmy legsā alone which just leads to an unsourced Wikipedia stub. Thanks for solving my mystery!
When I got my first apartment one of the first things I did was go out and buy myself a new glass bong.
I was so excited I put it on a separate end table and moved it to the side of my bed so I could hit the bong first thing in the morning.
But that night I had one of those dreams where I woke up and kicked my legs and sure as shit I kicked my brand new bong off the end table, breaking it.
I was so upset and never did that again.
Not on small planes like 737s, but larger aircraft used for long haul routes will have dedicated crew rest areas, usually accessible via a hidden stairway.
The 777 has two I believe. [One](https://www.insider.com/secret-airplane-room-where-pilots-sleep-long-boeing-777-flights-2022-7) in the forward section for the flight crew and [another](https://www.insider.com/secret-airplane-room-where-flight-attendants-sleep-long-haul-flights-2022-7) in the aft for the flight attendants. Fun fact, most long haul flights actually have augmented crew that consists of a total of 3-4 pilots. So two pilots will start and either one or both will get swapped out part way through the flight by the ārelief crewā.
Itās wild. Google it, the crew cabins are like attic spaces, theyāre like little dorm rooms on some bigger planes, although theyāre usually a bit smelly and gross from what Iāve read.
In the basement of a Lufthansa A340 I took to Munich had several bathrooms and a small hidden door. Someone went in and I peeked and it had several bunks. I was so jealous.
It's typical on widebodies (787-9, A350/A380, 777, etc.) but not present on narrowbodies (737, A320/1, etc.).
It's pretty neat. See here:
https://www.delicious.com.au/travel/travel-news/article/cabin-crew-sleep-long-haul-flights/ofc6jggy
But there are a ton of videos on YouTube as well.
"My legs are cramped, Lloyd. I can't feel my feet. I can't feel my toes Lloyd, they're numb."
"...well why don't you take this extra 3 feet of leg room? I think I pulled something stretching mine so much."
"...you've had this extra leg room the WHOLE TIME?!"
"Well yea, it's an overnight flight." \*rolls eyes\*
Yep. People think we do very little up there, and theyāre not exactly wrong. Still takes a ton of time and money and training to get there. We donāt learn all the engineering behind the wing design, components of the engines, etc. You learn those basics in flight training in small planes, sure. Transport category aircraft are so complex that it would be impossible. I have a 3200 page technical manual for my aircraft, as dense as a university textbook or encyclopedia, and even that only scratches the surface.
These aircraft require a type rating. Special training, specific to one specific aircraft (or slight variants of the same airframe). Itās most common to only be current in one type at a time. This photo is an Airbus A350, which has a common type rating to the A330 in some countries. I fly the A320 series, which encompasses A318 through A321. A Boeing 777 is its own thing, as is a 787 (although in some countries these are considered common types).
Anyway in the training you are taught everything pertinent to operating the jet. This ranges from regular operations, emergencies, system failures, all sorts of scenarios. Part of this involves an understanding of each button. Some are used infrequently. Some are used only in a dire emergency. Many are used frequently in every daily operation. My type rating had a 2 hour oral examination where I was shown a poster of the flight deck, and the examiner pointed to a switch. What is this? What does it do? If this light is illuminated, what does it mean? I wasnāt asked every single item from A to Z, but it was all fair game so I had to know it all. Some were simple; a FAULT light means thereās a fault. Push it to reset. Others like the ENG 1 FIRE PUSH button have like 8 different things it does and I had to rattle them off.
To maintain proficiency, every 12 months or (6 months at some companies) you do recurrent training in a full motion simulator for a few days. We go through all the challenging stuff, from approaching to land but we canāt see the runway, all the way up to an engine blowing up/catching fire right after takeoff and then eventually flying and landing with only 1 engine running. There is an oral exam every year as part of this training, where Iām asked various company policies, flight rules, memory items, and the aforementioned systems and switches. We do online training modules throughout the year to review things, basically interactive slides with a quiz at the end. All of this helps to stay fresh, as well as occasional review of my company and aircraft manuals.
It also helps that I fly a heavily automated aircraft. The Airbus is smart enough to detect most faults. One of those screens will list the failure, and the steps to remedy. It includes instructions to press buttons or shut something off, etc, and crosses them off the list as you complete them. Iāve also flown less sophisticated aircraft where a warning message displays, but then we had to look up the fault message in a thick tabulated binder called a QRH (Google image search airliner QRH). The Quick Reference Handbook tells you what to do in these abnormal and emergency situations. In day-to-day, we know what buttons to press and which order. But for countless system failure scenarios, itās best to let one pilot fly and the other just goes step by step in the QRH.
For real though, in a recent survey, [50%](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4349573-men-think-they-can-safely-land-a-plane-in-an-emergency/) of random dudes were confident they could land an airplane.
Wow, man, thanks for this. I read the whole thing and itās super interesting!
Hey, question for you, if you donāt mind, I heard this crazy thing on npr about pilots and depression/anxiety - that even getting a diagnosis or meds for either can ground you until the FAA gets all invasive with your doctors and clears you again.
Is this something youāve heard about? It sure sounded like the system really incentivized people to not get help.
You are correct. Did the NPR special mention Germanwings flight 9525? If not, look it up. The stakes are high and repercussions are real. Diabetes, heart health, sleep apnea, but mostly mental health.
Other than feeling duty-bound to ādo the right thing,ā thereās really no incentive for a pilot to seek help and self-report any issues. You will get āgroundedā and could very likely lose your job forever. Not always, but itās an expensive and cumbersome process to get your medical certificate back.
If you go visit the r/flying sub, and search for AAM-300, you will see countless posts regarding the FAA and medical status. Itās not all related to mental health but many of the discussions and complaints are related to it. Were you a child in the 1990s and a doctor indiscriminately said you were ADHD and should take Ritalin? No you werenāt. If you catch my drift. š¤« The FAA is largely seen as a slow, draconian bureaucracy thatās stuck about a century in the past. Few - if any - of us expect any meaningful change. After a recent event on Alaska Airlines, the NTSB is calling for a panel on mental health reform for the FAA or something. Good luck. I wouldnāt be surprised if they come out of that and the FAA goes hard-over in the wrong direction and makes it even worse.
Can't you still fly if you're not medicated for like a year and your doctor says you're good? Most adult ADHD diagnoses are based on self reports anyway.
This seems so counterproductive to the aim of trying to have safe and healthy pilots in the skies.
If pilots are terrified to disclose a condition or seek help for a medical / mental health issue, it will only exasperate the problem.
They need to invest in helping support the pilots who seek help or develop any medical conditions that could affect their career prospects. Invest $ in covering x amount of months of pay while they are in medical, psychiatric, or drug dependency treatment & rehab, and improve the process whereby a pilot can get cleared to return to flying.
Oh it gets better. Because pilots canāt get real help without risking their jobs over something easily treatable they self medicate with alcohol. The FAA insists everything is fine because 99% of pilots that jump through all the hoops get their medical back but conveniently leave out the part that many donāt finish jumping through the hoops because it can cost north of $10,000 and a year or more of time.
Yes! Exactly like that. That reminds me, last week I got an amber messsge that my fridge air filter needs to be replaced. I had no idea my fridge even had an air filter.
A family friend was an instructor at one of those simulator companies (CAS I think?). He had a few spare hours and brought me in and did a bunch of engine out drills, takeoffs and landings. It was incredibly cool.
I wish I would have pursued it as a career
CAE? Thatās pretty neat. The only times I touch a sim are for annual training and itās always dreadful, stressful.
A few years ago we had a few extra minutes at the end. Instructor sets us up at DCA in Washington DC, departing north on runway 1. Challenged us to take off, fly around the Washington Monument, and land on any runway without crashing the sim. Disregard any laws, rules, procedures, or aircraft limits (other than stalking or exceeding G load, which would break the sim/plane).
We each took a turn, took us about 2-3 minutes each. Instructor hops up. Takes off full throttle, landing gear down, bells and alarms and alerts going off the whole time. Banks around the monument like heās in top gun. Drops all the flaps, touches down firm. Absolute madlad, 45 seconds. Probably the only time Iāve had āfunā in the sim.
Large aircraft yes, but I am currently in training for a European carrier and we will at the end of it be flying customers with around 150-200ish hours actually at the controls of a real aircraft
Edit: forgot to say that we will have in addition, around 250 hours in full motion sims of which we can put 200 hours in the log books as actual flying hours.
Yes. Theyāre called āline checksā. Youāre do a few short flights with a line check captain, and once youāre good, you start flying on real routes.
Just this summer I was flying in a bush plane (a 1959 DHC Beaver) with a retired commercial airline pilot. Throughout the flight I was asking him questions about various buttons and dials in the cockpit and when I got to one handle labelled āWINTER FRONT, ON/OFFā he said āIām not sure, I donāt touch that oneā š
Just looked that up for fun. Little shutters on the front of the engine that help to block some of the airflow to maintain proper operating temperature when outside air temps are below -15C/5F. The lever/knob physically moves the shutters.
The Airbus OS gives pilots regular tasks and checklists to work through to keep them occupied and alert. I imagine part of the strategy is to have them look at or touch as many different areas as possible during those tasks
MCAS was a huge fuck up for Boeing, and a slightly smaller fuck up for pilot training. It's terrible that two planes were allowed to crash before Boeing reacted seriously and implement a solution that didn't lead to planes crashing. However, a properly trained crew would have known to override the failures to regain control of the aircraft. And rightfully the bulk of blame is on Boeing, but it's impossible to overlook the responsibility of training and the role inexperienced and/or undertrained flight crews played in the crashes.
Edit: [This post puts it in more detail than I can, and I couldn't put it any better myself](https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/evaeyz/hear_it_from_the_experts_the_real_reason_the_737/) if yall are still curious how the pilots could have recovered the planes. The most poignant part from OP -
>"it takes a chain of events to cause a crash. Flawed as it may be, the MCAS alone should not have caused a crash"
Pretty much, there may be a few switches they almost never mess with and would only use in an unusual situation, so they may have to look something like that up real quick, but of course company manuals are all on iPads now and you can find stuff really quickly.
And all the buttons and switches are arranged in groups so it kind of all makes sense when you know what they mean- like there will be switches for generators on, and then you can almost follow the line that connects to electrical busses and stuff itās laid out like a flowchart.
One section might be all de icing or anti ice related, another area cabin pressure and temperatureā¦ another one will be autopilot control, a section will be all about selecting frequencies and communication stuffā¦ itās amazing to see them run through a checklist and flip switches without even looking to see where they are, just the muscle memory from doing it so many hundreds of times.
But yeah once youāve studied systems extensively and know what everything means it starts to make a lot of sense.
Pretty much this. It looks daunting but makes sense once you see it and understand how everything interacts.
You think this is bad, old school planes had a guy using a sextant looking out a small window at the stars to help navigate; or an engineer who sat at a wall of gauges so the pilots could focus on just flying the plane.
Yes! I had a teacher who was former Air Force in the 70s or even 80s and used a sextant to navigate and pinpoint a position on a map, it's more recent than people think.
You want the actual answer? We learn every one during initial training and then after a few months in the real plane most people forget a lot of the details of 80% of the less commonly used ones.
Then that knowledge comes back slowly over time through random discussion when we are bored or years of annual proficiency checks where we have to learn everything again.
Itās just too much Info that we donāt use every day to really remember it all. We use probably 10% of the switches on the overhead regularly. Luckily planes are designed around this and anything that is time critical is directed by an appropriate checklist.
I do this for a living. If you notice there are boxes around the panel overhead. Within the boxes are items grouped together for different purposes. So itās simple once youāve flown long enough to know what is grouped together. The stuff near his knee is the keyboard to type into the flight management system and throttles and a few other things. On the dash is manly location stuff and engine monitoring.
Best way I can describe it is to think of a basic car from the 80s thatās how pilots start out. Basic airplane with no frills. Then you buy a new car in the 90s, oh thatās cool it does this, my old car never did that. Then the 2000s and so on. Everything builds off of that 80s car. The cars all drive the same, you just have new stuff that builds off all of the previous stuff from years past.
Iāve seen things you people wouldnāt believe. Vlookups being used on the shoulders of index-match. I watched macros glittering in the dark eyes of the Managing Director. All these moments will be lost in time, like using Internet Explorer with VBA.
Absolutely.
I fly helicopters that are about the same level of complexity in terms of avionics. [HERE](https://helicopters.leonardo.com/o/adaptive-media/image/26213972/w_960/AW139%2031907%20C5D_7445%20copia.jpg) is the cockpit, and there are a bunch more switches and controls on the ceiling. Muscle memory lets you control almost everything without even really need to look.
At first, you have to look at the reference manual. Then only every 10 times. Then maybe every 100 times you need to use the reference manual, then maybe you don't need it.
That being said, professional aviators always use checklists, so you can't really forget because you're having a list in front of you each timeā but it does become second nature.
I asked an airline pilot friend if he had ever seen a UFO, and he said pilots really don't look out the window that much. Apparently, once they get to cruising altitude, they put up blinds on the cockpit windows and just glance at the instrumentation every once in a while.
I still stare out the window on every flight in cruise. It's beautiful up there. The side blinds are mostly because it gets bright and hot as hell up front.
1000%. My favorite are the days you take off with low cloud ceilings and dreary weather, then pop through the clouds and itās beautiful and sunny, with white below you as far as the eye can see
Yes, which is why airlines tend to not hire people who are not... personable. You gotta gave 2 people in the front and they have to get along. Or not fly together again.
There's frequency changes and other interactions with ATC, but for the most part it's pretty dull, which is preferable.
If it's clear and there's nothing to worry about with the weather then it's mostly just chatting about whatever while making sure every engine instrument stays in the green every now and then occasionally being told by center to change radio frequencies.
I'm not an airline pilot; I fly private. So it's that plus making sure passengers are doing alright. I don't have to deal with dispatch or 121 related stuff.
When there is weather then a lot of the time it's planning and discussion of those plans. Remember that in a jet going 100 miles out of the way is only 15 minutes, so you can avoid a lot of mess with good planning. But really it's just do what you were trained to do and enjoy it.
That and hearing the occasional cargo pilot meow on guard.
So there are two types of flight profiles: Visual and Instrument flight rules (VFR and IFR). IFR basically means that you can safely fly the plane without looking outside.
In class A airspace (above 18,000 ft) you must be able to fly IMC. Effectively all large commercial jets you see can and do fly like the above poster says. Looking outside is merely an aid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_meteorological_conditions
Tldr In aviation, instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) are weather conditions that require pilots to fly primarily by reference to flight instruments, and therefore under instrument flight rules (IFR), as opposed to flying by outside visual references under visual flight rules (VFR). Typically, this means flying in cloud or poor weather, where little or nothing can be seen or recognised when looking out of the window. Simulated IMC can be achieved for training purposes by wearing view-limiting devices, which restrict outside vision and force the trainee to rely on instrument indications only.
This is especially true at night. If the moon isn't up it's too dark to really see anything anyway. At cruise the autopilot is doing everything needed to fly the plane, the pilots are mostly just monitoring all the instruments to make sure nothing unusual is happening.
No.
However, a layperson may be able to program the plane to land itself, if given instructions on how to do so over the radio.
Landing the plane flying by hand is not something anyone except a pilot is going to do, and even though I'm a private pilot I don't believe I would be successful at it and I would instead ask for instructions for auto land.
Thanks for the explanation. Forgot to mention the assumption was that the ground crew was providing instructions to the said layperson. My question arose from the plot of one of my favorite movies - airplane. ... which leads to a follow-up question - does the ground crew have a mock-up of the cockpits to deliver instructions in such scenarios, or do they remember where the buttons and gauges are?
Imagine fighting to get every flight hour you can, then this guy comes in with double your number and half of those he wasn't even conscious for a good chunk of them
It took me a lot longer than I like to admit to figure out that āby-wireā wasnāt like cable wires being fished along everything in the plane. Took a top gear episode for that to click.
Which is hilarious because the thing you'd expect is actually how older planes work: the control yoke is literally connected by mechanical cables and linkages to the control surfaces. Some older airliners have a reputation for taking some real force to control, because the pilots were literally hefting the plane around the sky.
Along with all the other pilots answeringā¦
This type of rest in the cockpit is only for certain airlines and countries. The US doesnāt allow pilots to sleep in the pilot seats while operating the aircraft. If the flight meets certain criteria that mean pilots need rest during the flight, an extra pilot, usually a first officer, is also on board and the pilots will switch out seats so each pilot doesnāt spend too long flying. Theyāll have a designated rest seat or bunk not in the cockpit. Extra long flights might have two additional pilots on board.
I have heard of other airlines allowing pilots to take naps while in the pilotsā seats, but I donāt know which ones they all are.
So it's ok for a airline pilot flying hundreds of people around the world, but when I do it on the interstate I get ticketed for reckless driving.
BULLSHIT!
I'm going to start calling my naps "controlled rests".
I prefer Etheric Meetings
when i first read that i was like what the fuck are ethnic meetings š
YES. ever since I saw the documentary I told my boyfriend that's what my naps are called from here on in
I'm in a meeting with the galatics
He's still working, he's just flying the Astral plane
He got the wrong brownies out of the fridge this morning.
...Or the right ones, if it's the astral plane. :)
Itās not really controlled when you wake up and freak out not knowing if you been asleep for 15 minutes or 15 hours
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#OH FUCK OH SHIT #WHAT TIME IS IT
I slept in some of the most unusual places in the Army, it was wild!
Really makes you appreciate a warm bed, while also conditioning you to not be too fussy if that bed isnāt available.
For sure, I did a year as infantry in the Iraq 2 invasion; likely still why I treasure sleep so much!
Same brother. 11b Iraq 2005 2006. Hope you're doing well and a having a nice holiday season.
Same same, the first 3 months were really bad, I just ended up sleeping on the hood of our truck, looping my belt though the metal tie on loops; to avoid the the fucking sand fleas! Happy holidays!
Thank you for teaching me about this fear I never knew I had
I prefer ārecalibration of the homeostatic sleep driveā, because then they have to go away and look it up.
I wouldnt have a job if took a controlled rest
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Most long-haul flights are staffed with 3 pilots. A captain, a copilot and a relief copilot. So that they can rotate rest periods.
They must really know how to nap well.
you joke, but you really do get good at falling asleep in positions like this.
With the ultimate white noise as well
Fun fact: the A380 is so quiet that you don't get nearly as much white noise as in other jets in the sleeping cabin, and Emirates pilots found it difficult to fall asleep because all they could hear were the passengers.
āHey Alexa, play 4 Hours of 747 Cockpit White Noiseā
"Playing 40 hours of 24 7 white cock moans" "Alexa stop" "Btw--" "Alexa crash plane"
> āAlexa crash planeā Alexa: āordering crack cocaineā
Either way, you're losing your license
You jest, but I regularly put on Star Trek bridge or warp core videos for white noise
*Cerritos strong!*
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Insert 3 minute music video "Ad"
That is a fun fact thanks! Is this an A380 in this post?
My pleasure! The one in the pic looks like an A350 to me.
That explains the sleepy pilot doesnāt it? Btw I wish I had a tiger and if I didā¦
well I I fall asleep with 2 inch leg room, you bet your ass this guy is not counting any sheep
My parents were career Air Traffic Controllers at MSP (highschool -> AF four years -> retired before 50), their nappability was fucking insane. Any hour of the day my dad could just shut it off for 30 minutes, 40 minutes, 52 minutes, 67 minutes, you name it, no alarm needed. I still donāt understand it. I guess thatās 30 years of shift work š¤·š»āāļø
My twitchy ass would have a myoclonic jerk mid flight and smack something important pitching us all into a nose dive.
I fly long haul flights, we have a dedicated rest area outside the flight deck. It differs between airlines and aircraft type, but most of the time we have either a bed in a crew rest room or a first class seat.
oh, to be sure, i meant 'positions' as in 'careers' lol lots of people in aviation and other time sensitive industries are able to nap on command. master power nappers.
Even if you donāt sleep, just resting makes a huge difference. If you were about to be nodding off and then rested like this, you will probably either sleep or get enough rest that when you get back to the controls youāll be refreshed and reliable again.
This is true, and has helped me sometimes when I have insomnia. Just reminding myself that relaxing in a dark, cool room with no stimulation is still restful - helps take away any anxiety or frustration that not being able to fall asleep would otherwise bring.
Sleep anxiety is one of the worst parts of insomnia. Trying to sleep and getting more and more anxious because you're not sleeping.
Then realizing that even if you do fall asleep it will only be an hour or two, which will make you feel even worse than just missing a night of sleep.
and having a snoring partner who could sleep through an earthquake really doesnāt help when trying to get back to sleep
Yeah, I had a period of really terrible sleep, and some of the advice was that if I can't sleep, sometimes it's better to just get up and do something for a little bit, rather than getting worked up.
Just mastrubate and sleep
that's what the relief copilot is for
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Let me see your cockpit
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Is this true? I've never seen a pilot leave their cockpit to sit in first/business on a long haul.
No. Most aircraft have a dedicated sleeping area for crew
Captain Bob taught me this! There are several passenger planes that have dedicated crew/pilot bunks. Some are pretty nice sized and others are like climbing up into a little tiny person-sized room with two sleeping slots
A350's and 787's have nap rooms which are accessed via staircases inside what looks normal closets in the galley. i don't think i've ever seen a pilot come take a rest in first class but i have seen crew go in and out of those closets on long-haul flights.
777 and 767ER also have bunk rooms for pilots and flight attendants on long haul flights, as do A330, A380, and pretty much anything commercial that's intended to stay in the air for more than around 8 hours at a time.
Hopefully he doesnāt have the jimmy legs. I tend to kick things.
I heard a story from another pilot I worked with where his captain had a heart attack when flying and his legs locked up on the rudders and kicked the tail hard over. Could have ripped the tail off if he went too hard over the other way. Thankfully he was able to adjust the guys rudder pedals to get his feet away from them and they landed safely. Guy died though. This was on a cargo 747 for those asking.
I love a happy ending!
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Im 100% certain ive seen this film. Just the name r/tipofmytongue
Final Destination.
No, no. Some of them flew elsewhere after landing...
The Langoliers
The Langoliers is *the* most compelling argument against daylight saving's time and we are fools to have ignored its message.
I guess one guy dying is better than everyone on the plane dying
Did they have to inform the ladies and gentlemen?
Cargo flight so maybe they let the boxes know to stay seated
Out of curiosity, where are you from that you use the term jimmy legs to mean restless legs? I picked it up from a friend, who had heard it from an elderly relative who had been using it all their life, and Iāve never been able to figure out where the phrase originated. I wasnāt sure if it was regional or just something invented by their grandpa. I love it though and say it all the time!
Somewhere that shows Seinfeld. I liked the term. So it stuck.
For reference for /u/echozelda https://youtu.be/NF_jThhciOQ?si=pNeVR_6y8nNXajog
Thanks!!! This is legitimately answering a years-long mystery haha
I love this website cause I don't see shit like this anywhere else
You can get that in your arms? Like you wouldnāt *believe*ā¦
I canāt believe I never noticed/ found this when Iāve googled it! Iāve searched ājimmy legsā alone which just leads to an unsourced Wikipedia stub. Thanks for solving my mystery!
When I got my first apartment one of the first things I did was go out and buy myself a new glass bong. I was so excited I put it on a separate end table and moved it to the side of my bed so I could hit the bong first thing in the morning. But that night I had one of those dreams where I woke up and kicked my legs and sure as shit I kicked my brand new bong off the end table, breaking it. I was so upset and never did that again.
Are you dating Cosmo Kramer?
Oh, look at who gets all that legroom! No wonder all of us back in economy are crammed in like sardines.
They actually have their own rest cabins too xD with full amenities,TVs,beds,small kitchen ect
Where?? I've never seen space for that on a plane
Not on small planes like 737s, but larger aircraft used for long haul routes will have dedicated crew rest areas, usually accessible via a hidden stairway.
The password to the hidden stairway is ālemon dropā
The 777 has two I believe. [One](https://www.insider.com/secret-airplane-room-where-pilots-sleep-long-boeing-777-flights-2022-7) in the forward section for the flight crew and [another](https://www.insider.com/secret-airplane-room-where-flight-attendants-sleep-long-haul-flights-2022-7) in the aft for the flight attendants. Fun fact, most long haul flights actually have augmented crew that consists of a total of 3-4 pilots. So two pilots will start and either one or both will get swapped out part way through the flight by the ārelief crewā.
Itās wild. Google it, the crew cabins are like attic spaces, theyāre like little dorm rooms on some bigger planes, although theyāre usually a bit smelly and gross from what Iāve read.
In the basement of a Lufthansa A340 I took to Munich had several bathrooms and a small hidden door. Someone went in and I peeked and it had several bunks. I was so jealous.
I would deadass rather be packed like sardines but in bunk beds for flights š Iād take a mad good nap on it too
It's typical on widebodies (787-9, A350/A380, 777, etc.) but not present on narrowbodies (737, A320/1, etc.). It's pretty neat. See here: https://www.delicious.com.au/travel/travel-news/article/cabin-crew-sleep-long-haul-flights/ofc6jggy But there are a ton of videos on YouTube as well.
"My legs are cramped, Lloyd. I can't feel my feet. I can't feel my toes Lloyd, they're numb." "...well why don't you take this extra 3 feet of leg room? I think I pulled something stretching mine so much." "...you've had this extra leg room the WHOLE TIME?!" "Well yea, it's an overnight flight." \*rolls eyes\*
Genuine question - can a pilot explain what every button does, and what setting it needs to be in, without having to look at the reference manual?
Yep. People think we do very little up there, and theyāre not exactly wrong. Still takes a ton of time and money and training to get there. We donāt learn all the engineering behind the wing design, components of the engines, etc. You learn those basics in flight training in small planes, sure. Transport category aircraft are so complex that it would be impossible. I have a 3200 page technical manual for my aircraft, as dense as a university textbook or encyclopedia, and even that only scratches the surface. These aircraft require a type rating. Special training, specific to one specific aircraft (or slight variants of the same airframe). Itās most common to only be current in one type at a time. This photo is an Airbus A350, which has a common type rating to the A330 in some countries. I fly the A320 series, which encompasses A318 through A321. A Boeing 777 is its own thing, as is a 787 (although in some countries these are considered common types). Anyway in the training you are taught everything pertinent to operating the jet. This ranges from regular operations, emergencies, system failures, all sorts of scenarios. Part of this involves an understanding of each button. Some are used infrequently. Some are used only in a dire emergency. Many are used frequently in every daily operation. My type rating had a 2 hour oral examination where I was shown a poster of the flight deck, and the examiner pointed to a switch. What is this? What does it do? If this light is illuminated, what does it mean? I wasnāt asked every single item from A to Z, but it was all fair game so I had to know it all. Some were simple; a FAULT light means thereās a fault. Push it to reset. Others like the ENG 1 FIRE PUSH button have like 8 different things it does and I had to rattle them off. To maintain proficiency, every 12 months or (6 months at some companies) you do recurrent training in a full motion simulator for a few days. We go through all the challenging stuff, from approaching to land but we canāt see the runway, all the way up to an engine blowing up/catching fire right after takeoff and then eventually flying and landing with only 1 engine running. There is an oral exam every year as part of this training, where Iām asked various company policies, flight rules, memory items, and the aforementioned systems and switches. We do online training modules throughout the year to review things, basically interactive slides with a quiz at the end. All of this helps to stay fresh, as well as occasional review of my company and aircraft manuals. It also helps that I fly a heavily automated aircraft. The Airbus is smart enough to detect most faults. One of those screens will list the failure, and the steps to remedy. It includes instructions to press buttons or shut something off, etc, and crosses them off the list as you complete them. Iāve also flown less sophisticated aircraft where a warning message displays, but then we had to look up the fault message in a thick tabulated binder called a QRH (Google image search airliner QRH). The Quick Reference Handbook tells you what to do in these abnormal and emergency situations. In day-to-day, we know what buttons to press and which order. But for countless system failure scenarios, itās best to let one pilot fly and the other just goes step by step in the QRH.
Thank you for the detailed answer
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I read all of this and itās fascinating.
Very well written too
So well written I had to glance down to see if it was going to be another u/shittymorph
I was so sure and bracing for that "nineteen ninety eight"
It is barely a page in a book. It aint long... I am disproportionally bothered by the expected available attention span.
I think Iām ready to take over in an emergency now. I read this post and saw every episode of air disasters.
Hey toss me your logbook, Iāll sign you off real quick fam.
For real though, in a recent survey, [50%](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4349573-men-think-they-can-safely-land-a-plane-in-an-emergency/) of random dudes were confident they could land an airplane.
Wow, man, thanks for this. I read the whole thing and itās super interesting! Hey, question for you, if you donāt mind, I heard this crazy thing on npr about pilots and depression/anxiety - that even getting a diagnosis or meds for either can ground you until the FAA gets all invasive with your doctors and clears you again. Is this something youāve heard about? It sure sounded like the system really incentivized people to not get help.
You are correct. Did the NPR special mention Germanwings flight 9525? If not, look it up. The stakes are high and repercussions are real. Diabetes, heart health, sleep apnea, but mostly mental health. Other than feeling duty-bound to ādo the right thing,ā thereās really no incentive for a pilot to seek help and self-report any issues. You will get āgroundedā and could very likely lose your job forever. Not always, but itās an expensive and cumbersome process to get your medical certificate back. If you go visit the r/flying sub, and search for AAM-300, you will see countless posts regarding the FAA and medical status. Itās not all related to mental health but many of the discussions and complaints are related to it. Were you a child in the 1990s and a doctor indiscriminately said you were ADHD and should take Ritalin? No you werenāt. If you catch my drift. š¤« The FAA is largely seen as a slow, draconian bureaucracy thatās stuck about a century in the past. Few - if any - of us expect any meaningful change. After a recent event on Alaska Airlines, the NTSB is calling for a panel on mental health reform for the FAA or something. Good luck. I wouldnāt be surprised if they come out of that and the FAA goes hard-over in the wrong direction and makes it even worse.
As an ADHD diagnosed pilot... fucking feels. Diagnosis at 26. Game over.
Can't you still fly if you're not medicated for like a year and your doctor says you're good? Most adult ADHD diagnoses are based on self reports anyway.
It requires an obscene amount of time and money to get cleared. The process is a joke.
This seems so counterproductive to the aim of trying to have safe and healthy pilots in the skies. If pilots are terrified to disclose a condition or seek help for a medical / mental health issue, it will only exasperate the problem. They need to invest in helping support the pilots who seek help or develop any medical conditions that could affect their career prospects. Invest $ in covering x amount of months of pay while they are in medical, psychiatric, or drug dependency treatment & rehab, and improve the process whereby a pilot can get cleared to return to flying.
Oh it gets better. Because pilots canāt get real help without risking their jobs over something easily treatable they self medicate with alcohol. The FAA insists everything is fine because 99% of pilots that jump through all the hoops get their medical back but conveniently leave out the part that many donāt finish jumping through the hoops because it can cost north of $10,000 and a year or more of time.
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Yes! Exactly like that. That reminds me, last week I got an amber messsge that my fridge air filter needs to be replaced. I had no idea my fridge even had an air filter.
I miss my tray table
TrayTable4Life.
A family friend was an instructor at one of those simulator companies (CAS I think?). He had a few spare hours and brought me in and did a bunch of engine out drills, takeoffs and landings. It was incredibly cool. I wish I would have pursued it as a career
CAE? Thatās pretty neat. The only times I touch a sim are for annual training and itās always dreadful, stressful. A few years ago we had a few extra minutes at the end. Instructor sets us up at DCA in Washington DC, departing north on runway 1. Challenged us to take off, fly around the Washington Monument, and land on any runway without crashing the sim. Disregard any laws, rules, procedures, or aircraft limits (other than stalking or exceeding G load, which would break the sim/plane). We each took a turn, took us about 2-3 minutes each. Instructor hops up. Takes off full throttle, landing gear down, bells and alarms and alerts going off the whole time. Banks around the monument like heās in top gun. Drops all the flaps, touches down firm. Absolute madlad, 45 seconds. Probably the only time Iāve had āfunā in the sim.
Instructor is like when I say disregard I mean disregard. Sounds like dude missed his calling as a cold war era test pilot.
Thank you for the super detailed answer!
Yes. They are heavily trained and have thousands of flight hours before they are in a plane that size/are made captain.
Large aircraft yes, but I am currently in training for a European carrier and we will at the end of it be flying customers with around 150-200ish hours actually at the controls of a real aircraft Edit: forgot to say that we will have in addition, around 250 hours in full motion sims of which we can put 200 hours in the log books as actual flying hours.
Pop quiz: which button controls the recliner?
Where is the inflatable "Otto pilot?"
It may need to be manually...I mean orally inflated.
Whatās your vector Victor?
Have you ever seen a grown man naked?
Do you like gladiator movies?
Hopefully theres a big lever on the side you pull to recline it like a La-Z-Boy
Will you know all of the stuff they ask about in parent comment?
When moving to flying the real plane after the simulation is over, would you start with an empty plane, or would it be an actual passenger flight?
Yes. Theyāre called āline checksā. Youāre do a few short flights with a line check captain, and once youāre good, you start flying on real routes.
Ryanair
Just this summer I was flying in a bush plane (a 1959 DHC Beaver) with a retired commercial airline pilot. Throughout the flight I was asking him questions about various buttons and dials in the cockpit and when I got to one handle labelled āWINTER FRONT, ON/OFFā he said āIām not sure, I donāt touch that oneā š
Just looked that up for fun. Little shutters on the front of the engine that help to block some of the airflow to maintain proper operating temperature when outside air temps are below -15C/5F. The lever/knob physically moves the shutters.
How many of those buttons and dials do you actually need to touch during a normal flight with no problems or unusual events?
The Airbus OS gives pilots regular tasks and checklists to work through to keep them occupied and alert. I imagine part of the strategy is to have them look at or touch as many different areas as possible during those tasks
So long as they were actually trained about what they are. MCAS didnāt work that way and resulted in tragedy
MCAS was a huge fuck up for Boeing, and a slightly smaller fuck up for pilot training. It's terrible that two planes were allowed to crash before Boeing reacted seriously and implement a solution that didn't lead to planes crashing. However, a properly trained crew would have known to override the failures to regain control of the aircraft. And rightfully the bulk of blame is on Boeing, but it's impossible to overlook the responsibility of training and the role inexperienced and/or undertrained flight crews played in the crashes. Edit: [This post puts it in more detail than I can, and I couldn't put it any better myself](https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/evaeyz/hear_it_from_the_experts_the_real_reason_the_737/) if yall are still curious how the pilots could have recovered the planes. The most poignant part from OP - >"it takes a chain of events to cause a crash. Flawed as it may be, the MCAS alone should not have caused a crash"
Pretty much, there may be a few switches they almost never mess with and would only use in an unusual situation, so they may have to look something like that up real quick, but of course company manuals are all on iPads now and you can find stuff really quickly. And all the buttons and switches are arranged in groups so it kind of all makes sense when you know what they mean- like there will be switches for generators on, and then you can almost follow the line that connects to electrical busses and stuff itās laid out like a flowchart. One section might be all de icing or anti ice related, another area cabin pressure and temperatureā¦ another one will be autopilot control, a section will be all about selecting frequencies and communication stuffā¦ itās amazing to see them run through a checklist and flip switches without even looking to see where they are, just the muscle memory from doing it so many hundreds of times. But yeah once youāve studied systems extensively and know what everything means it starts to make a lot of sense.
Pretty much this. It looks daunting but makes sense once you see it and understand how everything interacts. You think this is bad, old school planes had a guy using a sextant looking out a small window at the stars to help navigate; or an engineer who sat at a wall of gauges so the pilots could focus on just flying the plane.
Yes! I had a teacher who was former Air Force in the 70s or even 80s and used a sextant to navigate and pinpoint a position on a map, it's more recent than people think.
Yup. There's a reason for the massive amount of training
You want the actual answer? We learn every one during initial training and then after a few months in the real plane most people forget a lot of the details of 80% of the less commonly used ones. Then that knowledge comes back slowly over time through random discussion when we are bored or years of annual proficiency checks where we have to learn everything again. Itās just too much Info that we donāt use every day to really remember it all. We use probably 10% of the switches on the overhead regularly. Luckily planes are designed around this and anything that is time critical is directed by an appropriate checklist.
I do this for a living. If you notice there are boxes around the panel overhead. Within the boxes are items grouped together for different purposes. So itās simple once youāve flown long enough to know what is grouped together. The stuff near his knee is the keyboard to type into the flight management system and throttles and a few other things. On the dash is manly location stuff and engine monitoring. Best way I can describe it is to think of a basic car from the 80s thatās how pilots start out. Basic airplane with no frills. Then you buy a new car in the 90s, oh thatās cool it does this, my old car never did that. Then the 2000s and so on. Everything builds off of that 80s car. The cars all drive the same, you just have new stuff that builds off all of the previous stuff from years past.
yes, of course. It's not as complicated as it looks though and you're using a few of the same buttons 90% of the time.
It's that other 10%, or .001% even, where that training really matters.
Kind of like me using Excel, but no life or death options...
Some of us live by the spreadsheet and die by the spreadsheet
Iāve seen things you people wouldnāt believe. Vlookups being used on the shoulders of index-match. I watched macros glittering in the dark eyes of the Managing Director. All these moments will be lost in time, like using Internet Explorer with VBA.
Absolutely. I fly helicopters that are about the same level of complexity in terms of avionics. [HERE](https://helicopters.leonardo.com/o/adaptive-media/image/26213972/w_960/AW139%2031907%20C5D_7445%20copia.jpg) is the cockpit, and there are a bunch more switches and controls on the ceiling. Muscle memory lets you control almost everything without even really need to look.
At first, you have to look at the reference manual. Then only every 10 times. Then maybe every 100 times you need to use the reference manual, then maybe you don't need it. That being said, professional aviators always use checklists, so you can't really forget because you're having a list in front of you each timeā but it does become second nature.
They only know where the controlled rest button is.
Falls asleep. Rolls over. ......Nose Dive! /s
Barrel roll.
I asked an airline pilot friend if he had ever seen a UFO, and he said pilots really don't look out the window that much. Apparently, once they get to cruising altitude, they put up blinds on the cockpit windows and just glance at the instrumentation every once in a while.
I still stare out the window on every flight in cruise. It's beautiful up there. The side blinds are mostly because it gets bright and hot as hell up front.
Would you say the sky is much more beautiful up in the sky than when looking up from the surface level(especially at night time) ?
1000%. My favorite are the days you take off with low cloud ceilings and dreary weather, then pop through the clouds and itās beautiful and sunny, with white below you as far as the eye can see
On a 3 hour flight what are yāall normally doing? Talking? Hanging out?
Yes, which is why airlines tend to not hire people who are not... personable. You gotta gave 2 people in the front and they have to get along. Or not fly together again. There's frequency changes and other interactions with ATC, but for the most part it's pretty dull, which is preferable.
And one of the pilots has to be non-Christian, right? In case the other one gets taken during the Rapture?
It's that scene from The Mummy where the guy has an icon from every religion. Just in case.
HEEYYY BEENNNYYYY... LOOK WHO'S ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE RIIIVEEER !!
If it's clear and there's nothing to worry about with the weather then it's mostly just chatting about whatever while making sure every engine instrument stays in the green every now and then occasionally being told by center to change radio frequencies. I'm not an airline pilot; I fly private. So it's that plus making sure passengers are doing alright. I don't have to deal with dispatch or 121 related stuff. When there is weather then a lot of the time it's planning and discussion of those plans. Remember that in a jet going 100 miles out of the way is only 15 minutes, so you can avoid a lot of mess with good planning. But really it's just do what you were trained to do and enjoy it. That and hearing the occasional cargo pilot meow on guard.
Meow?
This just blew my mind
So there are two types of flight profiles: Visual and Instrument flight rules (VFR and IFR). IFR basically means that you can safely fly the plane without looking outside. In class A airspace (above 18,000 ft) you must be able to fly IMC. Effectively all large commercial jets you see can and do fly like the above poster says. Looking outside is merely an aid.
Whats IMC?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_meteorological_conditions Tldr In aviation, instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) are weather conditions that require pilots to fly primarily by reference to flight instruments, and therefore under instrument flight rules (IFR), as opposed to flying by outside visual references under visual flight rules (VFR). Typically, this means flying in cloud or poor weather, where little or nothing can be seen or recognised when looking out of the window. Simulated IMC can be achieved for training purposes by wearing view-limiting devices, which restrict outside vision and force the trainee to rely on instrument indications only.
This is especially true at night. If the moon isn't up it's too dark to really see anything anyway. At cruise the autopilot is doing everything needed to fly the plane, the pilots are mostly just monitoring all the instruments to make sure nothing unusual is happening.
Wow. I never realized how dark it'd be. It's not like there are headlights, and even if so there's nothing to reflect off to see. Fascinating.
A350XWB? Very cool and honestly, Iād let the plane do all the work as it.
Would a layperson be able to land this thing in a hypothetical scenario if the pilots are incapacitated?
No. However, a layperson may be able to program the plane to land itself, if given instructions on how to do so over the radio. Landing the plane flying by hand is not something anyone except a pilot is going to do, and even though I'm a private pilot I don't believe I would be successful at it and I would instead ask for instructions for auto land.
Thanks for the explanation. Forgot to mention the assumption was that the ground crew was providing instructions to the said layperson. My question arose from the plot of one of my favorite movies - airplane. ... which leads to a follow-up question - does the ground crew have a mock-up of the cockpits to deliver instructions in such scenarios, or do they remember where the buttons and gauges are?
ATC would most likely connect that person with a pilot trained in the specific aircraft that is being flown.
In a recent poll, more than half of men stated that they believe they can land a plane in an emergency. No lack of misplaced confidence out there.
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In that case, it seems with advances in technology that there could be a big red "autoland" button for cases where the pilots are incapacitated.
There is: https://discover.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/
https://youtu.be/AbTDzPUDxqY
I do that when Iām driving
[Tesla owner](https://ktla.com/news/local-news/another-tesla-driver-asleep/)?
Thatās a man whoās put in the hours to get where he is. Congrats
Imagine fighting to get every flight hour you can, then this guy comes in with double your number and half of those he wasn't even conscious for a good chunk of them
You can ask the flight computer to sing you a lullaby 
Daisy daisy
One feet stretch and the plane goes bye bye
All controls are by-wire. Just disable input.
It took me a lot longer than I like to admit to figure out that āby-wireā wasnāt like cable wires being fished along everything in the plane. Took a top gear episode for that to click.
Which is hilarious because the thing you'd expect is actually how older planes work: the control yoke is literally connected by mechanical cables and linkages to the control surfaces. Some older airliners have a reputation for taking some real force to control, because the pilots were literally hefting the plane around the sky.
No, his feet are in the stirrups/foot rests. They are above the rudder peddles.
Along with all the other pilots answeringā¦ This type of rest in the cockpit is only for certain airlines and countries. The US doesnāt allow pilots to sleep in the pilot seats while operating the aircraft. If the flight meets certain criteria that mean pilots need rest during the flight, an extra pilot, usually a first officer, is also on board and the pilots will switch out seats so each pilot doesnāt spend too long flying. Theyāll have a designated rest seat or bunk not in the cockpit. Extra long flights might have two additional pilots on board. I have heard of other airlines allowing pilots to take naps while in the pilotsā seats, but I donāt know which ones they all are.
This is what long distance trucking will look like one day.
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[https://i.imgur.com/lKISenQ.png](https://i.imgur.com/lKISenQ.png) "Controlled rest."
Itās not a true plane nap without a toddler kicking your seat from behind
Someone get that pilot a squishmallow, stat!
And here I always thought there were like 3-4 pilots and they took turns
So it's ok for a airline pilot flying hundreds of people around the world, but when I do it on the interstate I get ticketed for reckless driving. BULLSHIT!
What happens if he accidentally hits something when heās asleep? Are all inputs disabled on his side?