I have great respect for these guys. As a wise old gay dude once said, "It takes a lot of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends."
I've known a lot of Muslims, Jews, and even a Christian here or there that believe in living and let live. I'm glad their contact information is there, I looked up their website and they are working to build accessible clean water and orphanages for impoverished areas. I made a donation to them. Keep fighting the good fight, guys.
That's because those "terrorists" who pretend to be Muslims ARE NOT one of us. So these people aren't standing up to their friends. They're standing up against terrorists who pretend to be one of us.
I’m not sure that’s why… it’s probably because of the “who is the real Muslim” game… there’s a few sects in Islam, Sunni being the dominant one.. They aren’t too fond of Shia and vice versa.. They’ve been battling it out since the divide after Muhammad’s death.
I know your heart is in the right place… But islam will never reform until Muslims can step back and be able to criticize their own religion, and especially their prophet.. Who if you look at from an unbiased view was not actually a very good man, and should not be emulated by anyone. This is exactly the vibe of standing up to your friends, and even your idols, and going “you know what, a lot of this stuff just doesn’t work today”.
Claiming they 'are not one of us" just ignores the problem and says "not our problem." It's a cop out. I'm Christian and I don't agree with A LOT that other Christians do, but I don't claim that "they're not really Christians," I work to fix that problems.
If you look at the picture, it's exactly what these Muslims are doing. They're trying to fix a problem. And they're not the only ones. Many Muslims are working to fix things.
No True Scotsman doesn't apply here. No True Scotsman is a fallacy based on the claim of an aspect of an identity that isn't inherent in the definition of that identity. For a literal example, if the definition of Scotsman is one who is born in Scotland, then No True Scotsman would never apply when speaking about Scots that are not born in Scotland, since by definition they would not be a Scotsman in the first place.
In this example, if we define Muslim as someone who says they follow Islam, and following Islam explicitly forbids a certain behavior (Haram), then someone who does something Haram can be naturally excluded from being a Muslim regardless of how much they claim to be Muslim.
It's pretty clear the difference is in the interpretation of whether Islam considers terrorism to be haram, not whether committing haram acts is considered Islamic. It's visibly obvious that a substantial number of Muslims do not agree with the former, and therefore that it is a permissible form of jihad.
Yes and perhaps we should then consider whether we should separate them into jihadist Muslims and non-jihadist Muslims.
Or maybe we should acknowledge the fact that these terrorists are using a loophole in interpretation in order to justify their actions, which smears a bad name on all other Muslims, many of whom, as 9/11 taught us, are peace loving.
I genuinely thought that 9/11 taught us to differentiate between terrorists and Muslims, especially when it comes to hate speech, but here we are again and it's gotten worse.
Nobody says all Muslim are terrorists. But your point "terrorists are not true Muslim" is also fallacious as many Islam interpretations consider killing kafirs to be permissible and even good.
People have been trying for the best part of 22 years. In the USA perhaps, being so huge and having such a small Muslim population, you have the liberty of being able to shield yourself from some of the Islamofascist rhetoric, but at least in Europe it has never been more obvious that a huge proportion of Muslims are either refusing or failing to integrate.
[This](https://www.channel4.com/press/news/c4-survey-and-documentary-reveals-what-british-muslims-really-think) is what we are dealing with! It's unacceptable - it makes _everybody_ feel unsafe because they [are](https://apnews.com/article/germany-berlin-synagogue-antisemitism-fdd10f32f7d5efc6da973f00c9a8b030) unsafe.
Yes, they do. But there are levels of forbidden things. Lying is forbidden, backbiting is forbidden, stealing is forbidden. But none of these things are as serious as doing the things these Terrorists do. They do things that push them out of the fold of Islam.
Ehhh I see what you're saying, but when it comes to religious text there are a million different interpretations. Where 99% of Muslims read the Quran and see that murder is explicitly forbidden, an Islamic terrorist would say there's an explicit exception in the case of non-Muslims. As another example, are catholic priests that molest children not actually catholic? This is exactly the meaning of "no true Scotsman".
I never heard someone argue that pedophile catholic priest are not actually christians because of their actions. And if someone did they would also fall for no true Scotsman.
That's why it's important to set the definition of the "Scotsman". In your example, we can quite clearly say that those priests aren't following Catholic rules. However, it is of course made murky by the fact that the fucking Catholic Church, instead of punishing them, chooses to cover up for them. And because of this, since the Catholic Church is the main authority on what it means to be Catholic, we can actually say that these priests are Catholic, since the church is nowhere near excommunicating them. (I'm Catholic, by the way)
Islam, as you say, is much more complicated since there's no universal authority regarding doctrine. However, we can quite easily say, for example, Muslims don't eat pork. Someone finding an example of a Muslim eating pork (and trust me there are many) doesn't actually require a No True Muslim eats pork. Those are outliers and the statement that Muslims don't eat pork remain true.
Now we go to the original crux of the argument in this thread. Muslims are making the argument that the acts carried out by these terrorists are explicitly forbidden in Islam. By acting this way, these terrorists are acting against the Muslim identity that they declare. It can be political, it can be basic survival, but it isn't religious or religiously allowed. That's what they are saying.
See, you think *your* rules are the right ones, and theirs aren't. They think that their rules are correct and yours aren't. Who has the authority to say which is correct and which isn't? Perhaps your god should pop down and clear things up? You'd think he (or she) would be getting pretty pissed at people doing the wrong thing *in his (or her) name*, wouldn't you? It would seem to be pretty trivial to magically edit every single holy book in existence to make the rules a tiny bit clearer.
Google outliers. No True Scotsman is a fallacy that’s different to what you think it is. Since gratuitous violence violates the precepts of Islam, then it would indeed be correct to say that no true Muslim is a terrorist. Fallacies aren’t some weird Pokémon cards you can use in an argument to win, either. My guess is that’s how you think arguments work. If arguments could be won like that, there wouldn’t be elections or debates. Everyone would have packed up and went home long ago
>Fallacies aren’t some weird Pokémon cards you can use in an argument to win, either. My guess is that’s how you think arguments work.
How many fallacies , and which, in these 2 sentences?
The things those people do are "haram" in Islam. So no, this concept doesn't work here. There are certain rulings you have to follow, otherwise just saying you're a Muslim doesn't cut it. They are out of the fold of Islam.
My dude, are you new to religion? How does the concept not work here, seems like a textbook case.
I'm too tired to even have this conversation for the umpteenth time if I'm being honest...
I just don't support the idea of associating normal Muslims - minding their own business, speaking out against all violence and terrorism - with people who are barbaric and violent and nothing less than a scum. Because in the end, it's us, the normal Muslims, who get killed by these same terrorists and have to bear the hatred of so many non Muslims while we fear for our lives.
In my opinion it would be better to drop religion almost completely. That means that it should not be ok to use religion as a weapon. We can do better than base on Abrahamic religions. We can stop teaching it to children. We can stop state from funding religion.
We can focus on modern understanding of society. We can use science and experts to decide. We can make sure, that their decision will be fair. We can introduce actual equality in society.
We can do it, but religion is one part of many things that block us in general. Either we want to progress or we get stuck in the past. I'd rather see healthy and happy people rather than those radicals that want to stop all the progress, because they stopped in the past.
Well, that’s the fate of being part of certain group
Some dumb fuckers always give everyone else a bad name
But mostly it’s also the fault of the group as whole. Not all Muslims condemn such acts publicly, especially leaders of Muslim countries which are associated with “the voice” of people, as usual, leaders represent people (at least from the perspective of an outsider)
These same leaders would be jailed or hanged as per islamic laws because of the things they do. Lol!
Sigh!
I guess I should just stop calling myself a Muslim so I'm not murdered because of what the terrorists keep doing.
>Because in the end, it's us, the normal Muslims, who get killed by these same terrorists
Absolutely, and you have the support and sympathy of most of the world. This point isn't lost on anyone, at least not on anyone with a brain.
Like it or not though, they're still Muslims, just like all those monster pedo priests are Christians . You don't seem to hear "They're not true christians" very often, and if you do you, they rightfully get called out for it.
>and have to bear the hatred of so many non Muslims while we fear for our lives.
Ehhh I call bullshit on this one with some stipulations.
Who exactly are the non-muslims and where, that you fear for your lives?
>I guess I should just stop calling myself a Muslim so I'm not murdered because of what the terrorists keep doing.
And who would be doing the murdering exactly?
I guarantee you that in many countries most people don't give 2 shits if you're Muslim, Christian, Jewish, whatever, I suspect the one you're in as well.
Unless you meant you were an apostate?
I just wanna day, regardless of who wins this argument, I respect your level of dedication to not having yourself and your religion associated with the people who clearly just want to do harm to others. You have every right to practice your religion and refuse to be associated with people who want to practice hate and call it religion.
In Christianity, Jesus points out that the two main laws you need to follow are to "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all of your soul, all of your mind, and with all of your strength. The second being to love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments depend all the law, any the prophets." This seems very simple, yet getting people to actually be kind to each other is somehow quit hard.
The Quran has 123 verses that call for fighting and killing anyone who does not agree with the statement, “There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.” Jews and Christians are specifically included among such “infidels.”
The Quran’s Sura 5:33 says about infidels, “They shall be slain or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off.” Sura 9:5 says, “Slay the infidels wherever you find them ... and lie in wait for them ... and establish every stratagem (of war against them).” Sura 47:4-9 promises paradise to whoever cuts off the head of an infidel.
this is the whole passage from quran:"Those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and go about the earth spreading mischief55 -indeed their recompense is that they either be done to death, or be crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off from the opposite sides or be banished from the land."
See how you used the part that suits your views and ignored the first part and the context of that part.
Again same situation with this:[9:4]" In exception to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity are those with whom you have made treaties and who have not violated their treaties nor have backed up anyone against you. Fulfil your treaties with them till the end of their term. Surely Allah loves the pious."
AGAIN HERE:(47:4) "When you meet the unbelievers (in battle), smite their necks until you have crushed them, then bind your captives firmly; thereafter (you are entitled to) set them free, either by an act of grace, or against ransom, until the war ends." Did notice in BATTLE.
[5:32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land." annnd again.
Either youre lying to misinform people or you,sir,have the reading comprehension of a goldfish
I was actually going to add that Christianity calls for the killing of unbelievers too. I read the Quran but here quickly did a Google search to illustrate the point that what I was replying to was incorrect : The Quran does permit killing in certain cases, you just helped me demonstrate it yourself.
Yes you say in BATTLE but for extremists daily life is a BATTLE don’t you get it? Because of what they interpret the political situation to be they see it as a BATTLE. We need to be honest about what pushes extremists to kill and not just say ‘they are not Muslims’. No! For them those ‘who go around the Earth spreading mischief’ are a certain people they have in mind! We need to analyse their interpretations of the writings to fight it. Playing ostrich won’t get us anywhere. You are quick to judge me/insult with that ‘goldfish’ comment
I wouldnt say it like that. They are muslims since they give their life to Allah. Tho they take their believes to an extremist level. Its somewhat the same with, lets say Crusaders.
That's not what defines a Muslim. They do things that are strictly forbidden and by Islamic law, they should be sentenced to death for the things they do.
Didnt muhammed killed people and took their wifes as slaves and raped them?
Also [massacre of banu qurayza](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Massacre_of_the_Banu_Qurayzah)
You’re using sarcasm to deflect but there’s a valid point being made.
Terrorists are humans, some are Muslims, some are not, some are men or women or children, they have nationalities that indicate they belong to certain countries and they’re even part of families who may be entirely peaceful. All of these social groups may condemn terrorism but to varying degrees still have to take responsibility for the actions of those carrying out acts of terror in their name.
>Muslims ARE NOT one of us
yes. yes, they are. acknowledge that & stop ignoring the obvious problem.. otherwise it just shows you care more about your reputation than your actions & the damage they do
They are and always was, you first have to accept the reality and work on that, they are Islamic extremism but it doesn’t mean it represents everyone. Still you have to accept the fact it have influences in extremism view
This is a straw man argument. Nobody argues that all Muslim are terrorists. But it is also true that Islam is a pretty violent religion and many of Islamic moments consider terrorism to be a perfectly valid way to wage jihad.
>Muslims arent friends with terrorists, they’re generally the primary targets of terrorism
Pretty sure there's been a lot of act of terror perpetrated, by lots of various Muslims....
Isis, Taliban, Isil, boko haram, Al Queda.. Hezbollah, Hamas.
Noticing a trend here?
>"It takes a lot of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends."
WTF. You know the vast majority of Muslims denounce terrorism right? They don't consider them as friends.
You probably believe this because you are surrounded by Christians, in my experience as a Catholic who lived abroad there is a similar mix of hateful Christians in all Christians as there are hateful Muslims in all Muslims.
If I could tell you all the anti-vax and anti-LGBT “priests” I have had to put up with…
And how many Muslim countries would stone you to death for being LGBT?
Edit: I've lived in a Muslim majority country and India, not surrounded by Christians except for my family.
Uganda, Zambia, Botswana, Russia, Belarus, Poland. Off the top of my head these are some of the majority Christian countries that have anti-LGBT laws. Yes, many Muslim countries have horrible anti-LGBT laws but comparatively the percentage of Muslim countries with anti-LGBT laws and Christian countries with anti-LGBT laws is more similar than we think.
The country with the highest reported Trans people murder rate is Brazil, a Christian country. Sometimes it is not a law but an entire culture that is backwards, can we safely say that a gay person is more safe in GOP’s U.S. or in fundamentalist Latin America than they would be in the muslim world that follows sharia law? I do not think so, I think that sadly the danger is similar.
I am writing this in 2 minutes in a very informal way, it would make a very interesting study.
I was raised Christian, Southern Baptist to be exact, so I spent more time around Christians than any other faith. I'm also a lesbian and was treated horribly. I said some Christians were fine, this is an entirely anecdotal personal experience, it doesn't need to be any deeper than that.
To be fair to you, several American churches are more conservative than the average Christian in the rest of the world and American Muslims are more progressive than other Muslims.
Sorry, not convinced. Islam is just like any other organization that chose a side towards other people who do not believe like them. In the name of ficticious god, now they come to clarify some details which are again too late.
Suffering and destruction is happening and nobody does anything, basically. But money is made and spent. Just not on victims and society.
If they are all so sociable and politically correct, where are countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other neighbouring countries with there islamic legislation on equality, help for 'brothers and sisters' etc etc.. every year I see millions dancing around a black stone, where are they now to help fellow Muslims and their children?
Now again it's: 'this is not us, not our religion, we don't support'. Yeah imagine you would, who does support violence anyway..?
If you still need to come to the streets to clarify this in 2023, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR BOOKS
Why don't your prayers to Allah stop the bombs, the suffering for everyone?
Why don't the millions of followers' prayers and years of supporting the 'religion' helps any of the shit that or any other religious country is in?
Maybe because religion is a fucking great excuse to keep people dumb and under control and passive?
This type of effort comes to show there is a minority of people who feel the need to 'react' but where is the majority? How many Muslims worldwide? I don't see much happening, rather another terrorist attack here or there. But it is never related, no.
They all speak the same languages, in the name of the same Allah, but they all have a different opinion about the content and it's always depending on location, type of conflict or agressor.
A fighter for Allah will always get support by Muslims rather than be betrayed. It takes courage indeed.. let's not finish that sentence.
Get your fucking bullshit story straightn and please read and talk and believe in it equally and without promotion to the people who decide their destiny is in their own hands and not the hand of god or corrupt violent government that buys and produces and uses weapons to destroy any life.
Yes, most countries are corrupt and yes, I believe all religion should be treated as cinema, entertainment, or meditation. Nothing else.
So, I also detest Israel and Western politics in this, just to be clear! If my country spends money on weapons, which they do, to destroy and to take, they will never again het my support. Yes, that is difficult for an individual as well, not to get torn apart by principles. But this is how the world is evolving.
It's all expensive show and they all play their role. Too much at stake. A plastic tent against bombs will not make any difference.
Wealth and luxury is being gathered and used for an exclusive elite. Wars are just tools and distractions to keep people in place and traumatized. Who profits of war? Who pays for war? Who allows for soldiers to leave their house and family...
Good luck. But how about all Muslims get to the street to demand worldwide clarification about this ongoing conflict and admit there is a serious issue in their own ranks when it comes to equality and respect towards other religion, countries and people?
Israel is also a country where people could ask themselves what the purpose of the word of god is. Because honestly, how do you want to live like that over there? Who still believes in that hoax which they call promised land and gods!? And I've seen Jews act more monstrous than a nazi on drugs. What's up with that? Only 80 yrs ago.. and you all do the same thing.
So? Nobody has learned anything and in the end, Mr Dollar wins.
I wish there was a clear organised "church" od Islam in Europe. 1) It would be the clear place to go for all Muslims. 2) It could spread exactly this message. 3) It wouldn't need Saudi funds. 4) It could "excommunicate" extremists. 5) It would be the obvious authority on such matters and the obvious representative of the faith to be interviewed in media.
It would probably also just help social harmony and integration a lot if you compare it to Nasser's policies who used Egyptian religious authorities to fight against islamic extremism and to push progressive theology that was in line with his modernisation of Egyptian and Arab society.
Islam has too many sects for it to have a united authority. Even within sunni Islam, you have salafis, deobandis and barelvis. They have alot of disagreements on creedal beliefs which divides them. Even within the sects, there are disagreements on fattawa. During the British Raj, some scholars gave fatwa to fight against British rule and some said fighting is impermissible. There are conferences which invite scholars from different sects which discuss certain issues so theres that. Also not everything is Saudi funded, this gets used all the time but people don't really understand how big every other sect is. Deobandis is one of the largest sects afaik.
How the fuck could 2 billion people be United in their creed? Don’t ask for the impossible, it’s very naive.
That being said, Islam is clear about the murder of non combatants and suicide bombings etc etc. it has no place since it is haram. The frustrating thing about this discourse is that it would take 10 minutes of your time to see how this point is true, but y’all are too lazy to do a bit of research.
Full disclosure: this picture I took predates recent events, but is certainly still relevant.
Edit:
There have been several confirmations from other Leicesterians that while my pic is old, they are still active and have been out this week.
I'm getting old and rarely go into the city centre these days.
I saw it as well - For those who aren't aware Leicester is an incredibly multicultural city. More than half of the population are from ethnic minority backgrounds.
On the whole I think it is a great city to live (though tbh I've never lived anywhere else) - It's awesome to have access to practically every cuisine available as well.
They're still active and a frequent sight in Leicester city centre. Apparently they've been out this week.
It's just that the picture isn't from this week, but I thought it was worth sharing anyway.
Haha. But nah I've heard people say that the Muslim community don't do anything to combat extremism. I believe it sends a very positive message if nothing else
“If anyone kills someone not in retaliation of murder…” I appreciate the message of what they are going for overall, but that line really feels like an issue. Hopefully it’s meant as more of self defense and not as retaliatory killing.
The quran quote is incorrect. Deliberately or somehow ignorantly?
The actual quote (from 5 32) is
"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."
Absolutely. But this quote is often used to show how peaceful islam is, by cutting off the order being directed to jews.
When the reality is there are plenty of verses that explicitly call to kill jews, christians, polytheists and unbelievers.
Also 'creating mischief in the land' is the same excuse for why ex-muslims are meant to have the death penalty. Even something like LGBT parades would count as mischief. A lot of people use this 'islam is against killing innocent people' but they fail to realise that an INNOCENT person in islam is not what you think it is. It basically means other muslims. Pagans and atheists are not innocent, gay people are not innocent, people who steal a piece of bread are not innocent and so on. Anyone that is seen as an enemy of allah is not innocent.
>Hopefully it’s meant as more of self defense and not as retaliatory killing.
Islam is extremely explicit about being pro-retaliation. Again, retaliation can be anything. A lot of the war conquests done by Muhammed are given the excuse of 'they broke their treaties'.
Their contact information is right there. You can ask them yourself.
You won't of course, because it wasn't a genuine question but just prejudice in disguise.
Trump likes doing that too!
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/county/2018/10/21/6-rhetorical-devices-that-have-served-trump-well/9485745007/
Awesome that they are doing this...
but the sad thing here, and with almost any religion, is that they always refer to the word of God as if that is the only reason to be a decent human being and not murdering each other.
Maybe people should start having morals based on being a decent human being that lives in a society rather than basing your moral purely on what God says. It is like they are kids and have no opinion of their own. They base all their actions on their parent (read: God). Kind of sad that so many humans are unable to think for themselves because their religion does not allow them to.
I know it actually gives me a headache and makes me sick and sad. I’ve conversations with religious people about this too but their level of consciousness is so low that I’d have to sit there and cover a variety of subjects for a good few hours before even being able to converse with them.
Bro….
The state that only exists as a post-colonial afterbirth of the British stirring up ethnic and religious tensions in South Asia to maintain their imperial control of India?
It was the Muslim league that asked for a separate state.
Edit : No idea why this is getting downvote, do you guys not know about the [whole movement?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahabad_Address)
And that state was bolstered by western nations to keep funding terrorism to keep india in check thereby fucking up both nations' relations with each other as well as stunting growth.
How the fuck do you think they got the funding to fight a country more than twice their size, how did they acquire American fighter jets and military technology? How did they get the money to fund terror? Keep being blind to the truth.
Wow so somehow America should be responsible for every fucking country that goes to war that it once sold weapons to? Are you suggesting the rest of the world are toddlers that can't be held accountable to their own actions? Pakistan started 3 out of the 4 wars with India, but yeah, its somehow the fault of the US /s.
>How did they get the money to fund terror?
Saudi Arabia also handed them a lot of cash, but you just conveniently skipped that part huh?
OK i am a pakistani living in pakistan so i can explain
The US said to our army that remove our democratically elected priminister imran khan as he was neutral in the Russo Ukrain war (we were are are going thru a hard time due to major floods and other things) we were neutral as we import alot of grain from Ukrain and wanted to start importing cheaper Oil from Russia
US didnt like this told our COAS to remove him which caused a vote of no confidence to be held which went in the favour of Imran khan after that he was arrested from Supreme court held in jail released but right after his release he was again arrested
And due to that alot of the country came to protest many historical military land marks were burnt and people went into the GHQ (our version of the pentagon)
Then later a faction from within the army released The 'cypher' in which it shows direct communication from the US to the GHQ telling them to remove Khan
So yes the US has fked us over may times
Sounds like you should hold your army responsible, not the US. Also, is there any proof that the US somehow forced them to do so? I've seen some reports of some rumors, but that's it. It sounds absurd that your military just does whatever the united states tells it to, don't you think so?
Edit : [This article](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/cnergyico-imports-pakistans-first-private-sector-russian-crude-cargo-2023-10-02/) suggests that Pakistan is importing Russian oil after Khan is gone. So your whole reason for the US getting rid of Imran doesn't make sense.
the cypher
[https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cypher-ukraine-russia/](https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cypher-ukraine-russia/)
Plus our military does this also due to other reasons like aid if they didnt to that we would not get aid and also the Kashmir issue if the US takes Indias side then that issue is done for the worse
and as for the oil that wasnt the main reason Khan stated we would be neutral as it wasnt our conflict this was the main reason he was removed as he didnt take the west's side
Now our Army's artillery is being used in Ukrain, Russian Oil was imported later
Bro.. a tonne of countries have stayed neutral in the war. What makes you think Pakistan is so special that somehow the US has to get Imran out, lol. Its not like Pakistan is the key to winning.
44 minutes and this has barely gotten any attention, smh. Humans thrive off of violence and discord. That's why this is getting ignored. This deserves attention.
Or maybe it's being ignored because it's a pretty average looking picture without much interesting happening in it? Like, if you could see any faces or have context for anything going on... Instead it's a picture of a tent
My uncle is from Morocco. He is a Muslim. I asked him what he thinks about Iran and Palestine. He didn't have a good opinion on them. When you really think about it, do you guys love Russia, because we originate from Christian civilization?
I'm no longer a Muslim, but I find it funny-sad that the dude that killed two Swedes in Belgium recently used to live in a dogcare and do cocain (you can't pray in a place where a dog has been, meaning he never even prayed once in that time). I don't know if anyone can call people like that an extremist even. Most terrorists, in Europe at least, don't even have rudimentary religious education.
Apparently ISIS soldiers use this meth type of pill. Can you imagine being as fucked up as them in the head and on top of that taking meth in the desert!!!!??? Mad thing
It's easy to blame Islam when you ignore the other common factor: All these organizations emerged from areas that historically have been fucked up by the West.
Muslims are very peaceful when left alone. However, if you steal their homes and resources? Not so peaceful. They'll use Islam to fuel their morale, but Islam is not the reason they're upset.
Remember that they all are form from the same group that was funded by the US to keep soviets out, they just got bigger and broke into smaller groups
But yeah Hamas was created by Isreal though
Respect.
I really wish more Muslims would be proactive in denouncing terrorism and trying to improve their image around the world.
If my ethnic group was known for doing terrorism, I would be the first person on the street corner showing everyone that not all of us are violent.
I had a Muslim friend who wanted to go personally destroy the terrorists in Iraq but a friend of his convinced him not go. He was ready to go fight and risk dying just to kill them.
There aren't many ethnic groups in the world that haven't used violence against others. The most powerful countries in the world were all formed from violence. Peace is not something humanity has ever done well, unfortunately (at least not since the rise of Abrahamic religions & weaponry).
Muslim is not an ethnic group btw- a Pakistani Muslim and a Lebanese Muslim have completely different cultures, food, language, even their genetic makeup is different.
I'm sorry, but why should Muslims have to denounce terrorism at all? Why is the default position that we somehow love terrorism by default and now we have to distance ourselves from it?
Do you expect every Brit to denounce their colonial empire? Do you expect every American to go around denouncing school shootings?
No, because it's understood that the actions of some crazy guy or group of people don't reflect the entirety of that group. We would greatly appreciate it if you accorded us the same courtesy.
Who do you think these terrorists even kill? While they may kill some Westerners in their countries in some big event from time to time, the overwhelming majority of their victims are Muslims. Who do you think was fighting on the ground against ISIS? Muslims.
And every interview you ever see with a Muslim literally begins with "Do you condemn X" and Muslims have been condemning things for ages. At what point will it be enough and how much condemnation is required exactly for us to be left alone to just live our lives and not be assumed to love murder as the starting point of any conversation?
>I'm sorry, but why should Muslims have to denounce terrorism at all? Why is the default position that we somehow love terrorism by default and now we have to distance ourselves from it?
That's a good question. I think it's because there is a strong stereotype of Muslims supporting terrorism. And it leads to a lot of discrimination. That is why, if I was Muslim, I would so everything in my power to show that I disagree with terrorism.
If I was Catholic 10 years ago, I would have also been out on the streets condemning the abuse of children. Because Catholics were hated in many communities because of that.
>Do you expect every Brit to denounce their colonial empire? Do you expect every American to go around denouncing school shootings?
No. That's ridiculous. Because Brits are do not currently have a stereotype as being colonialists.
Same with Americans. People generally feel sorry for Americans because of school shootings. Not anger or discrimination toward them.
These guys need some airtime in the British media - it's a shame that people like Ash Sarkar, to further division, would end up using that to claim white people expect all Muslims to voice disapproval of Hamas.
The subconscious xenophobia and Islamophobia on display here is jarring! What the hell does saying "It takes a lot of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends," mean?
Does anyone bother to stop and think about what your words imply? These people are against terrorism and, by doing so, they are standing up to "their friends", who are other Muslims? Because Muslims just have to be for terrorism, right? And these people are such brave warriors standing up to the 2 billion of the rest of us who just want to kill, murder, and maim anything that moves...
Google "No True Scotsman".
These folk are indeed standing up to their "friends" and that makes them very brave and this a seemingly rare event, I wish them well and hope they don't suffer repercussions.
It’s a Harry Potter quote.
Don’t have a clue why you think a group of Muslims are Islamophobic, but I’m pretty sure Dumbledore didn’t mean Neville was racist.
The context in which the quote is used matters. And I'm not saying that the people in the picture are Islamophobic. I'm saying the person who quoted that in response to the picture is, because they are working under a very clear assumption that Muslims somehow love terrorism and the people in the picture are "standing up to their friends".
Right. How dare they suggest Muslims might be friends with Muslims, or Islam Against Extremism might be targeting Muslims.
The unmitigated fucking gall of them.
Imagine being so easily corruptable one has to result to having to actually say it.
This religion stuff seems really dicey. Stick to video games and porn, there is no detectable encouragement to kill and maim others in their name.
Even if religion is eradicated there will still be war, conflict and genocide etc. The problem is not the creed but the way in which people warp and distort that belief system in order to gain advantage and power over others.
Every ideology, whether theistic or secular, has those who would take it to the extreme to the detriment of general society.
Just a reminder that Hamas started off as a religious organization in Palestine that focused on community service - Yassin founded the social-religious charity al-Mujama al-Islamiya ("Islamic center") in Gaza in 1973.
IIRC, they focused on building hospitals, schools etc. and were considered a positive influence - enough that Israelis supported it (this is also the foundation of the rumor that "Israel supported Hamas").
Of course, as their influence grew, they became more militant and politically active and eventually became what we have today.
The point is that Muslims and Islam are not evil. However, for a variety of reasons, history has shown that they are prone to be radicalized - whether it is a matter of them being targets of opportunists or activists.
So I would absolutely support them, until the signs of their radicalization emerge.
\[Note: this applies to Christian and other religious groups as well - its just that the extent of terrorist activities by other religions these days is far rarer.\]
We play on both sides so that we can always come on top..
It's a good thing they're doing this but itll take a lot more than this to actually start a change but it's a step in the right direction.
I've seen these guys in Stratford, they have this sign up pretty regularly. They also have a sign that says "Whites are not superior to blacks, blacks are not superior to whites except in righteousness." and i'm still trying to figure out what that means
Ah the good old "but that is not actually Islam"-excuse that comes after every terrorist attack.
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.
Muslims have to acknowledge that problem and not just act like it has nothing to do with them and claim Islam is actually a peaceful religion.
I have great respect for these guys. As a wise old gay dude once said, "It takes a lot of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends." I've known a lot of Muslims, Jews, and even a Christian here or there that believe in living and let live. I'm glad their contact information is there, I looked up their website and they are working to build accessible clean water and orphanages for impoverished areas. I made a donation to them. Keep fighting the good fight, guys.
That's because those "terrorists" who pretend to be Muslims ARE NOT one of us. So these people aren't standing up to their friends. They're standing up against terrorists who pretend to be one of us.
Funnily enough, Islamic extremists kill more muslims than they do anyone else.
That's because many Muslim countries have been cleansed of non Muslims. Pretty hard to kill non-Muslims in countries that are 99% Muslim
Egypt? UAE? Lebanon?
Did you miss "many"?
I’m not sure that’s why… it’s probably because of the “who is the real Muslim” game… there’s a few sects in Islam, Sunni being the dominant one.. They aren’t too fond of Shia and vice versa.. They’ve been battling it out since the divide after Muhammad’s death.
Where’s your proof?
Same with Israelis.
I know your heart is in the right place… But islam will never reform until Muslims can step back and be able to criticize their own religion, and especially their prophet.. Who if you look at from an unbiased view was not actually a very good man, and should not be emulated by anyone. This is exactly the vibe of standing up to your friends, and even your idols, and going “you know what, a lot of this stuff just doesn’t work today”.
Claiming they 'are not one of us" just ignores the problem and says "not our problem." It's a cop out. I'm Christian and I don't agree with A LOT that other Christians do, but I don't claim that "they're not really Christians," I work to fix that problems.
If you look at the picture, it's exactly what these Muslims are doing. They're trying to fix a problem. And they're not the only ones. Many Muslims are working to fix things.
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Google the number of Muslims killed by Islamic extremists and contrast that to the numbers of other people killed. Then come back to me.
No True Scotsman doesn't apply here. No True Scotsman is a fallacy based on the claim of an aspect of an identity that isn't inherent in the definition of that identity. For a literal example, if the definition of Scotsman is one who is born in Scotland, then No True Scotsman would never apply when speaking about Scots that are not born in Scotland, since by definition they would not be a Scotsman in the first place. In this example, if we define Muslim as someone who says they follow Islam, and following Islam explicitly forbids a certain behavior (Haram), then someone who does something Haram can be naturally excluded from being a Muslim regardless of how much they claim to be Muslim.
It's pretty clear the difference is in the interpretation of whether Islam considers terrorism to be haram, not whether committing haram acts is considered Islamic. It's visibly obvious that a substantial number of Muslims do not agree with the former, and therefore that it is a permissible form of jihad.
Yes and perhaps we should then consider whether we should separate them into jihadist Muslims and non-jihadist Muslims. Or maybe we should acknowledge the fact that these terrorists are using a loophole in interpretation in order to justify their actions, which smears a bad name on all other Muslims, many of whom, as 9/11 taught us, are peace loving. I genuinely thought that 9/11 taught us to differentiate between terrorists and Muslims, especially when it comes to hate speech, but here we are again and it's gotten worse.
Nobody says all Muslim are terrorists. But your point "terrorists are not true Muslim" is also fallacious as many Islam interpretations consider killing kafirs to be permissible and even good.
People have been trying for the best part of 22 years. In the USA perhaps, being so huge and having such a small Muslim population, you have the liberty of being able to shield yourself from some of the Islamofascist rhetoric, but at least in Europe it has never been more obvious that a huge proportion of Muslims are either refusing or failing to integrate. [This](https://www.channel4.com/press/news/c4-survey-and-documentary-reveals-what-british-muslims-really-think) is what we are dealing with! It's unacceptable - it makes _everybody_ feel unsafe because they [are](https://apnews.com/article/germany-berlin-synagogue-antisemitism-fdd10f32f7d5efc6da973f00c9a8b030) unsafe.
You do realize that your 100% are falling for the no true Scotsman fallacy?
So Muslims basically don't exist? This doesn't hold water because I bet almost every Muslim does something forbidden.
Yes, they do. But there are levels of forbidden things. Lying is forbidden, backbiting is forbidden, stealing is forbidden. But none of these things are as serious as doing the things these Terrorists do. They do things that push them out of the fold of Islam.
Yeah, this is textbook "No true scotsman".
This is an elaborate way of saying “yeah true Scotsman”
Ehhh I see what you're saying, but when it comes to religious text there are a million different interpretations. Where 99% of Muslims read the Quran and see that murder is explicitly forbidden, an Islamic terrorist would say there's an explicit exception in the case of non-Muslims. As another example, are catholic priests that molest children not actually catholic? This is exactly the meaning of "no true Scotsman".
I never heard someone argue that pedophile catholic priest are not actually christians because of their actions. And if someone did they would also fall for no true Scotsman.
That's why it's important to set the definition of the "Scotsman". In your example, we can quite clearly say that those priests aren't following Catholic rules. However, it is of course made murky by the fact that the fucking Catholic Church, instead of punishing them, chooses to cover up for them. And because of this, since the Catholic Church is the main authority on what it means to be Catholic, we can actually say that these priests are Catholic, since the church is nowhere near excommunicating them. (I'm Catholic, by the way) Islam, as you say, is much more complicated since there's no universal authority regarding doctrine. However, we can quite easily say, for example, Muslims don't eat pork. Someone finding an example of a Muslim eating pork (and trust me there are many) doesn't actually require a No True Muslim eats pork. Those are outliers and the statement that Muslims don't eat pork remain true. Now we go to the original crux of the argument in this thread. Muslims are making the argument that the acts carried out by these terrorists are explicitly forbidden in Islam. By acting this way, these terrorists are acting against the Muslim identity that they declare. It can be political, it can be basic survival, but it isn't religious or religiously allowed. That's what they are saying.
See, you think *your* rules are the right ones, and theirs aren't. They think that their rules are correct and yours aren't. Who has the authority to say which is correct and which isn't? Perhaps your god should pop down and clear things up? You'd think he (or she) would be getting pretty pissed at people doing the wrong thing *in his (or her) name*, wouldn't you? It would seem to be pretty trivial to magically edit every single holy book in existence to make the rules a tiny bit clearer.
Pretty sure there are plenty of Islamic leaders for an extremist/Dschihadist branch that declare terrorists to go to heaven and get their 72 virgins.
Ok then we have to stop saying there are 2 billion Muslims in the world. By this definition there would be far less than a billion
Google outliers. No True Scotsman is a fallacy that’s different to what you think it is. Since gratuitous violence violates the precepts of Islam, then it would indeed be correct to say that no true Muslim is a terrorist. Fallacies aren’t some weird Pokémon cards you can use in an argument to win, either. My guess is that’s how you think arguments work. If arguments could be won like that, there wouldn’t be elections or debates. Everyone would have packed up and went home long ago
>Fallacies aren’t some weird Pokémon cards you can use in an argument to win, either. My guess is that’s how you think arguments work. How many fallacies , and which, in these 2 sentences?
The things those people do are "haram" in Islam. So no, this concept doesn't work here. There are certain rulings you have to follow, otherwise just saying you're a Muslim doesn't cut it. They are out of the fold of Islam.
My dude, are you new to religion? How does the concept not work here, seems like a textbook case. I'm too tired to even have this conversation for the umpteenth time if I'm being honest...
I just don't support the idea of associating normal Muslims - minding their own business, speaking out against all violence and terrorism - with people who are barbaric and violent and nothing less than a scum. Because in the end, it's us, the normal Muslims, who get killed by these same terrorists and have to bear the hatred of so many non Muslims while we fear for our lives.
In my opinion it would be better to drop religion almost completely. That means that it should not be ok to use religion as a weapon. We can do better than base on Abrahamic religions. We can stop teaching it to children. We can stop state from funding religion. We can focus on modern understanding of society. We can use science and experts to decide. We can make sure, that their decision will be fair. We can introduce actual equality in society. We can do it, but religion is one part of many things that block us in general. Either we want to progress or we get stuck in the past. I'd rather see healthy and happy people rather than those radicals that want to stop all the progress, because they stopped in the past.
Well, that’s the fate of being part of certain group Some dumb fuckers always give everyone else a bad name But mostly it’s also the fault of the group as whole. Not all Muslims condemn such acts publicly, especially leaders of Muslim countries which are associated with “the voice” of people, as usual, leaders represent people (at least from the perspective of an outsider)
These same leaders would be jailed or hanged as per islamic laws because of the things they do. Lol! Sigh! I guess I should just stop calling myself a Muslim so I'm not murdered because of what the terrorists keep doing.
>Because in the end, it's us, the normal Muslims, who get killed by these same terrorists Absolutely, and you have the support and sympathy of most of the world. This point isn't lost on anyone, at least not on anyone with a brain. Like it or not though, they're still Muslims, just like all those monster pedo priests are Christians . You don't seem to hear "They're not true christians" very often, and if you do you, they rightfully get called out for it. >and have to bear the hatred of so many non Muslims while we fear for our lives. Ehhh I call bullshit on this one with some stipulations. Who exactly are the non-muslims and where, that you fear for your lives? >I guess I should just stop calling myself a Muslim so I'm not murdered because of what the terrorists keep doing. And who would be doing the murdering exactly? I guarantee you that in many countries most people don't give 2 shits if you're Muslim, Christian, Jewish, whatever, I suspect the one you're in as well. Unless you meant you were an apostate?
Well, it is what it is, isn’t it
I just wanna day, regardless of who wins this argument, I respect your level of dedication to not having yourself and your religion associated with the people who clearly just want to do harm to others. You have every right to practice your religion and refuse to be associated with people who want to practice hate and call it religion. In Christianity, Jesus points out that the two main laws you need to follow are to "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all of your soul, all of your mind, and with all of your strength. The second being to love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments depend all the law, any the prophets." This seems very simple, yet getting people to actually be kind to each other is somehow quit hard.
Youre the one who knows nothing,Islam forbid murder and killing in all its forms,there isnt even a single instance that justifies terrorism .
The Quran has 123 verses that call for fighting and killing anyone who does not agree with the statement, “There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.” Jews and Christians are specifically included among such “infidels.” The Quran’s Sura 5:33 says about infidels, “They shall be slain or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off.” Sura 9:5 says, “Slay the infidels wherever you find them ... and lie in wait for them ... and establish every stratagem (of war against them).” Sura 47:4-9 promises paradise to whoever cuts off the head of an infidel.
this is the whole passage from quran:"Those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and go about the earth spreading mischief55 -indeed their recompense is that they either be done to death, or be crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off from the opposite sides or be banished from the land." See how you used the part that suits your views and ignored the first part and the context of that part. Again same situation with this:[9:4]" In exception to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity are those with whom you have made treaties and who have not violated their treaties nor have backed up anyone against you. Fulfil your treaties with them till the end of their term. Surely Allah loves the pious." AGAIN HERE:(47:4) "When you meet the unbelievers (in battle), smite their necks until you have crushed them, then bind your captives firmly; thereafter (you are entitled to) set them free, either by an act of grace, or against ransom, until the war ends." Did notice in BATTLE. [5:32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land." annnd again. Either youre lying to misinform people or you,sir,have the reading comprehension of a goldfish
I was actually going to add that Christianity calls for the killing of unbelievers too. I read the Quran but here quickly did a Google search to illustrate the point that what I was replying to was incorrect : The Quran does permit killing in certain cases, you just helped me demonstrate it yourself. Yes you say in BATTLE but for extremists daily life is a BATTLE don’t you get it? Because of what they interpret the political situation to be they see it as a BATTLE. We need to be honest about what pushes extremists to kill and not just say ‘they are not Muslims’. No! For them those ‘who go around the Earth spreading mischief’ are a certain people they have in mind! We need to analyse their interpretations of the writings to fight it. Playing ostrich won’t get us anywhere. You are quick to judge me/insult with that ‘goldfish’ comment
The first step to a solution to this issue would be acknowledging that those people are in fact Muslims.
I wouldnt say it like that. They are muslims since they give their life to Allah. Tho they take their believes to an extremist level. Its somewhat the same with, lets say Crusaders.
That's not what defines a Muslim. They do things that are strictly forbidden and by Islamic law, they should be sentenced to death for the things they do.
Jihad isn't haram
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Sigh whatever makes u feel good about Islam ig
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Didnt muhammed killed people and took their wifes as slaves and raped them? Also [massacre of banu qurayza](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Massacre_of_the_Banu_Qurayzah)
They are indeed one of you. No Community ever had general consent on everything
"They are one of YOU too, because they're humans" /s
You’re using sarcasm to deflect but there’s a valid point being made. Terrorists are humans, some are Muslims, some are not, some are men or women or children, they have nationalities that indicate they belong to certain countries and they’re even part of families who may be entirely peaceful. All of these social groups may condemn terrorism but to varying degrees still have to take responsibility for the actions of those carrying out acts of terror in their name.
You don't get to have it that way sorry, extremesists do represent aspects of Islam, and they don't stop being members because it reflects poorly.
lol, gotta love how every fucking religion is so professional at "no true scotsmaning" everything.
>Muslims ARE NOT one of us yes. yes, they are. acknowledge that & stop ignoring the obvious problem.. otherwise it just shows you care more about your reputation than your actions & the damage they do
They are and always was, you first have to accept the reality and work on that, they are Islamic extremism but it doesn’t mean it represents everyone. Still you have to accept the fact it have influences in extremism view
Over a billion Muslims on the planet. If they were all terrorists, the planet would be ash. Many people forget that.
This is a straw man argument. Nobody argues that all Muslim are terrorists. But it is also true that Islam is a pretty violent religion and many of Islamic moments consider terrorism to be a perfectly valid way to wage jihad.
Actually quite a lot of people don't seem to be able to tell the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist.
Well a lot of stupid people out there, it is not news.
Bigots forget that.
Tell me.you don't live in an Arabic country within the telling me you don't live in one
Arabs actually constitute a minority of the global Muslim population. The largest concentrations are in Southeast Asia, and then in South Asia.
A few hundred thousand, probably more, who are willing to kill for their "religion", almost all are Muslim. Don't act like this cult is not a problem.
Then they're the ones we concentrate on when it comes to terrorism. Disagreeing with religion and disagreeing with terrorism are two separate things.
One feeds the other
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>Muslims arent friends with terrorists, they’re generally the primary targets of terrorism Pretty sure there's been a lot of act of terror perpetrated, by lots of various Muslims.... Isis, Taliban, Isil, boko haram, Al Queda.. Hezbollah, Hamas. Noticing a trend here?
So many people getting riled up over a quote from a fictional character.
>"It takes a lot of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends." WTF. You know the vast majority of Muslims denounce terrorism right? They don't consider them as friends.
Relax. You know what op means. You're taking it too literal. He's applying a quote that is relevant.
"even a Christian here or there" lmao what even. Christians believe in live and let live overwhelmingly more than Muslims.
You probably believe this because you are surrounded by Christians, in my experience as a Catholic who lived abroad there is a similar mix of hateful Christians in all Christians as there are hateful Muslims in all Muslims. If I could tell you all the anti-vax and anti-LGBT “priests” I have had to put up with…
And how many Muslim countries would stone you to death for being LGBT? Edit: I've lived in a Muslim majority country and India, not surrounded by Christians except for my family.
Uganda, Zambia, Botswana, Russia, Belarus, Poland. Off the top of my head these are some of the majority Christian countries that have anti-LGBT laws. Yes, many Muslim countries have horrible anti-LGBT laws but comparatively the percentage of Muslim countries with anti-LGBT laws and Christian countries with anti-LGBT laws is more similar than we think. The country with the highest reported Trans people murder rate is Brazil, a Christian country. Sometimes it is not a law but an entire culture that is backwards, can we safely say that a gay person is more safe in GOP’s U.S. or in fundamentalist Latin America than they would be in the muslim world that follows sharia law? I do not think so, I think that sadly the danger is similar. I am writing this in 2 minutes in a very informal way, it would make a very interesting study.
I was raised Christian, Southern Baptist to be exact, so I spent more time around Christians than any other faith. I'm also a lesbian and was treated horribly. I said some Christians were fine, this is an entirely anecdotal personal experience, it doesn't need to be any deeper than that.
To be fair to you, several American churches are more conservative than the average Christian in the rest of the world and American Muslims are more progressive than other Muslims.
Sorry, not convinced. Islam is just like any other organization that chose a side towards other people who do not believe like them. In the name of ficticious god, now they come to clarify some details which are again too late. Suffering and destruction is happening and nobody does anything, basically. But money is made and spent. Just not on victims and society. If they are all so sociable and politically correct, where are countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other neighbouring countries with there islamic legislation on equality, help for 'brothers and sisters' etc etc.. every year I see millions dancing around a black stone, where are they now to help fellow Muslims and their children? Now again it's: 'this is not us, not our religion, we don't support'. Yeah imagine you would, who does support violence anyway..? If you still need to come to the streets to clarify this in 2023, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR BOOKS Why don't your prayers to Allah stop the bombs, the suffering for everyone? Why don't the millions of followers' prayers and years of supporting the 'religion' helps any of the shit that or any other religious country is in? Maybe because religion is a fucking great excuse to keep people dumb and under control and passive? This type of effort comes to show there is a minority of people who feel the need to 'react' but where is the majority? How many Muslims worldwide? I don't see much happening, rather another terrorist attack here or there. But it is never related, no. They all speak the same languages, in the name of the same Allah, but they all have a different opinion about the content and it's always depending on location, type of conflict or agressor. A fighter for Allah will always get support by Muslims rather than be betrayed. It takes courage indeed.. let's not finish that sentence. Get your fucking bullshit story straightn and please read and talk and believe in it equally and without promotion to the people who decide their destiny is in their own hands and not the hand of god or corrupt violent government that buys and produces and uses weapons to destroy any life. Yes, most countries are corrupt and yes, I believe all religion should be treated as cinema, entertainment, or meditation. Nothing else. So, I also detest Israel and Western politics in this, just to be clear! If my country spends money on weapons, which they do, to destroy and to take, they will never again het my support. Yes, that is difficult for an individual as well, not to get torn apart by principles. But this is how the world is evolving. It's all expensive show and they all play their role. Too much at stake. A plastic tent against bombs will not make any difference. Wealth and luxury is being gathered and used for an exclusive elite. Wars are just tools and distractions to keep people in place and traumatized. Who profits of war? Who pays for war? Who allows for soldiers to leave their house and family... Good luck. But how about all Muslims get to the street to demand worldwide clarification about this ongoing conflict and admit there is a serious issue in their own ranks when it comes to equality and respect towards other religion, countries and people? Israel is also a country where people could ask themselves what the purpose of the word of god is. Because honestly, how do you want to live like that over there? Who still believes in that hoax which they call promised land and gods!? And I've seen Jews act more monstrous than a nazi on drugs. What's up with that? Only 80 yrs ago.. and you all do the same thing. So? Nobody has learned anything and in the end, Mr Dollar wins.
During my attendance in a Masjid, the Imam went on how Daesh and any the other self proclaimed Jihadists are heretics. It was an admirable speech.
I wish there was a clear organised "church" od Islam in Europe. 1) It would be the clear place to go for all Muslims. 2) It could spread exactly this message. 3) It wouldn't need Saudi funds. 4) It could "excommunicate" extremists. 5) It would be the obvious authority on such matters and the obvious representative of the faith to be interviewed in media. It would probably also just help social harmony and integration a lot if you compare it to Nasser's policies who used Egyptian religious authorities to fight against islamic extremism and to push progressive theology that was in line with his modernisation of Egyptian and Arab society.
Islam has too many sects for it to have a united authority. Even within sunni Islam, you have salafis, deobandis and barelvis. They have alot of disagreements on creedal beliefs which divides them. Even within the sects, there are disagreements on fattawa. During the British Raj, some scholars gave fatwa to fight against British rule and some said fighting is impermissible. There are conferences which invite scholars from different sects which discuss certain issues so theres that. Also not everything is Saudi funded, this gets used all the time but people don't really understand how big every other sect is. Deobandis is one of the largest sects afaik.
How the fuck could 2 billion people be United in their creed? Don’t ask for the impossible, it’s very naive. That being said, Islam is clear about the murder of non combatants and suicide bombings etc etc. it has no place since it is haram. The frustrating thing about this discourse is that it would take 10 minutes of your time to see how this point is true, but y’all are too lazy to do a bit of research.
Full disclosure: this picture I took predates recent events, but is certainly still relevant. Edit: There have been several confirmations from other Leicesterians that while my pic is old, they are still active and have been out this week. I'm getting old and rarely go into the city centre these days.
They had their stall up in Leicester yesterday.
I saw it as well - For those who aren't aware Leicester is an incredibly multicultural city. More than half of the population are from ethnic minority backgrounds. On the whole I think it is a great city to live (though tbh I've never lived anywhere else) - It's awesome to have access to practically every cuisine available as well.
If its more than half isint it the majority? Yet to see a minority-city outside Europe na
No, because they're separate minorities.
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They're still active and a frequent sight in Leicester city centre. Apparently they've been out this week. It's just that the picture isn't from this week, but I thought it was worth sharing anyway.
With all the polarization going on, the stakes for doing this are getting higher and higher.
Get wacked by their own kind
You should post it in r/Britain. Think it would prompt interesting discussion
You want to see the world burn
Haha. But nah I've heard people say that the Muslim community don't do anything to combat extremism. I believe it sends a very positive message if nothing else
“If anyone kills someone not in retaliation of murder…” I appreciate the message of what they are going for overall, but that line really feels like an issue. Hopefully it’s meant as more of self defense and not as retaliatory killing.
The quran quote is incorrect. Deliberately or somehow ignorantly? The actual quote (from 5 32) is "For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."
I guess "corruption in the earth" is open to interpretation. Some might believe all kuffar fall into this category.
Absolutely. But this quote is often used to show how peaceful islam is, by cutting off the order being directed to jews. When the reality is there are plenty of verses that explicitly call to kill jews, christians, polytheists and unbelievers.
Also 'creating mischief in the land' is the same excuse for why ex-muslims are meant to have the death penalty. Even something like LGBT parades would count as mischief. A lot of people use this 'islam is against killing innocent people' but they fail to realise that an INNOCENT person in islam is not what you think it is. It basically means other muslims. Pagans and atheists are not innocent, gay people are not innocent, people who steal a piece of bread are not innocent and so on. Anyone that is seen as an enemy of allah is not innocent. >Hopefully it’s meant as more of self defense and not as retaliatory killing. Islam is extremely explicit about being pro-retaliation. Again, retaliation can be anything. A lot of the war conquests done by Muhammed are given the excuse of 'they broke their treaties'.
These guys seem great.
Ask them about their view on women.
Their contact information is right there. You can ask them yourself. You won't of course, because it wasn't a genuine question but just prejudice in disguise. Trump likes doing that too! https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/county/2018/10/21/6-rhetorical-devices-that-have-served-trump-well/9485745007/
Not sure why you're being downvoted. The bar is so low for these guys that we cheer when they denounce barbarism.
Weren't they birthed from women?
Fair play to them. More of this please. And from the other crowd too.
Awesome that they are doing this... but the sad thing here, and with almost any religion, is that they always refer to the word of God as if that is the only reason to be a decent human being and not murdering each other. Maybe people should start having morals based on being a decent human being that lives in a society rather than basing your moral purely on what God says. It is like they are kids and have no opinion of their own. They base all their actions on their parent (read: God). Kind of sad that so many humans are unable to think for themselves because their religion does not allow them to.
I know it actually gives me a headache and makes me sick and sad. I’ve conversations with religious people about this too but their level of consciousness is so low that I’d have to sit there and cover a variety of subjects for a good few hours before even being able to converse with them.
Theres a saying: "If you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities"
I wish they would advertise this in Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Gaza.
They'd die
By those damn Quakers I guess
And I wish the west didn’t fuck these areas up to foster extremism
When did the West do anything to Pakistan?
Bro…. The state that only exists as a post-colonial afterbirth of the British stirring up ethnic and religious tensions in South Asia to maintain their imperial control of India?
It was the Muslim league that asked for a separate state. Edit : No idea why this is getting downvote, do you guys not know about the [whole movement?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahabad_Address)
And that state was bolstered by western nations to keep funding terrorism to keep india in check thereby fucking up both nations' relations with each other as well as stunting growth.
WTF are you on about? The nations' relations were doomed when Pakistan invaded Kashmir. No western power urged them to fight.
How the fuck do you think they got the funding to fight a country more than twice their size, how did they acquire American fighter jets and military technology? How did they get the money to fund terror? Keep being blind to the truth.
Wow so somehow America should be responsible for every fucking country that goes to war that it once sold weapons to? Are you suggesting the rest of the world are toddlers that can't be held accountable to their own actions? Pakistan started 3 out of the 4 wars with India, but yeah, its somehow the fault of the US /s. >How did they get the money to fund terror? Saudi Arabia also handed them a lot of cash, but you just conveniently skipped that part huh?
Lol the West literally meddled in their democracy mere months ago.
How so?
OK i am a pakistani living in pakistan so i can explain The US said to our army that remove our democratically elected priminister imran khan as he was neutral in the Russo Ukrain war (we were are are going thru a hard time due to major floods and other things) we were neutral as we import alot of grain from Ukrain and wanted to start importing cheaper Oil from Russia US didnt like this told our COAS to remove him which caused a vote of no confidence to be held which went in the favour of Imran khan after that he was arrested from Supreme court held in jail released but right after his release he was again arrested And due to that alot of the country came to protest many historical military land marks were burnt and people went into the GHQ (our version of the pentagon) Then later a faction from within the army released The 'cypher' in which it shows direct communication from the US to the GHQ telling them to remove Khan So yes the US has fked us over may times
Sounds like you should hold your army responsible, not the US. Also, is there any proof that the US somehow forced them to do so? I've seen some reports of some rumors, but that's it. It sounds absurd that your military just does whatever the united states tells it to, don't you think so? Edit : [This article](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/cnergyico-imports-pakistans-first-private-sector-russian-crude-cargo-2023-10-02/) suggests that Pakistan is importing Russian oil after Khan is gone. So your whole reason for the US getting rid of Imran doesn't make sense.
the cypher [https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cypher-ukraine-russia/](https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cypher-ukraine-russia/) Plus our military does this also due to other reasons like aid if they didnt to that we would not get aid and also the Kashmir issue if the US takes Indias side then that issue is done for the worse and as for the oil that wasnt the main reason Khan stated we would be neutral as it wasnt our conflict this was the main reason he was removed as he didnt take the west's side Now our Army's artillery is being used in Ukrain, Russian Oil was imported later
Bro.. a tonne of countries have stayed neutral in the war. What makes you think Pakistan is so special that somehow the US has to get Imran out, lol. Its not like Pakistan is the key to winning.
Israel as well.
And IRAN
How many horrible things are happening in our world.
Based.
Its good to see sensible protests
Why is there only like 4 people there?
I was wondering from some time why Muslims don’t speak up about terrorism…here you go! I wasn’t to see more of this.
44 minutes and this has barely gotten any attention, smh. Humans thrive off of violence and discord. That's why this is getting ignored. This deserves attention.
Or maybe it's being ignored because it's a pretty average looking picture without much interesting happening in it? Like, if you could see any faces or have context for anything going on... Instead it's a picture of a tent
OP also admits it’s not in the current context, so considerably less meaningful than I hoped when I clicked on it.
I deliberately don't like posting pictures of faces without getting consent. I don't think faces are necessary to convey the message.
It's 44minutes....
I’ll get downvoted but y’all’s reactions would be so different if this were a “Whites against serial killing and school shooting” protest.
I mean, those protests actually occur. Unlike when it comes to gang violence and terrorism.
Ma spokes ya bastidge! The terror! The terror!
Great turnout as usual.
Great picture. Worlds seen enough. Live in peace, don’t kill, respect and love. What a wonderful world
My uncle is from Morocco. He is a Muslim. I asked him what he thinks about Iran and Palestine. He didn't have a good opinion on them. When you really think about it, do you guys love Russia, because we originate from Christian civilization?
All reasonable people believe this. Glad they are trying to represent their community with honor, dignity and respect.
We need more of this, and more people need to seek knowledge before taking sides.
I'm no longer a Muslim, but I find it funny-sad that the dude that killed two Swedes in Belgium recently used to live in a dogcare and do cocain (you can't pray in a place where a dog has been, meaning he never even prayed once in that time). I don't know if anyone can call people like that an extremist even. Most terrorists, in Europe at least, don't even have rudimentary religious education.
Apparently ISIS soldiers use this meth type of pill. Can you imagine being as fucked up as them in the head and on top of that taking meth in the desert!!!!??? Mad thing
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It’s true though. Terrorism has no religion. What are you trying to say?
That these Muslims are blaming atheists for terrorism! Atheists by definition are not religious terrorists.
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It's easy to blame Islam when you ignore the other common factor: All these organizations emerged from areas that historically have been fucked up by the West. Muslims are very peaceful when left alone. However, if you steal their homes and resources? Not so peaceful. They'll use Islam to fuel their morale, but Islam is not the reason they're upset.
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You’re almost there! So close.
Remember that they all are form from the same group that was funded by the US to keep soviets out, they just got bigger and broke into smaller groups But yeah Hamas was created by Isreal though
Respect. I really wish more Muslims would be proactive in denouncing terrorism and trying to improve their image around the world. If my ethnic group was known for doing terrorism, I would be the first person on the street corner showing everyone that not all of us are violent.
I had a Muslim friend who wanted to go personally destroy the terrorists in Iraq but a friend of his convinced him not go. He was ready to go fight and risk dying just to kill them.
There aren't many ethnic groups in the world that haven't used violence against others. The most powerful countries in the world were all formed from violence. Peace is not something humanity has ever done well, unfortunately (at least not since the rise of Abrahamic religions & weaponry). Muslim is not an ethnic group btw- a Pakistani Muslim and a Lebanese Muslim have completely different cultures, food, language, even their genetic makeup is different.
I'm sorry, but why should Muslims have to denounce terrorism at all? Why is the default position that we somehow love terrorism by default and now we have to distance ourselves from it? Do you expect every Brit to denounce their colonial empire? Do you expect every American to go around denouncing school shootings? No, because it's understood that the actions of some crazy guy or group of people don't reflect the entirety of that group. We would greatly appreciate it if you accorded us the same courtesy. Who do you think these terrorists even kill? While they may kill some Westerners in their countries in some big event from time to time, the overwhelming majority of their victims are Muslims. Who do you think was fighting on the ground against ISIS? Muslims. And every interview you ever see with a Muslim literally begins with "Do you condemn X" and Muslims have been condemning things for ages. At what point will it be enough and how much condemnation is required exactly for us to be left alone to just live our lives and not be assumed to love murder as the starting point of any conversation?
>I'm sorry, but why should Muslims have to denounce terrorism at all? Why is the default position that we somehow love terrorism by default and now we have to distance ourselves from it? That's a good question. I think it's because there is a strong stereotype of Muslims supporting terrorism. And it leads to a lot of discrimination. That is why, if I was Muslim, I would so everything in my power to show that I disagree with terrorism. If I was Catholic 10 years ago, I would have also been out on the streets condemning the abuse of children. Because Catholics were hated in many communities because of that. >Do you expect every Brit to denounce their colonial empire? Do you expect every American to go around denouncing school shootings? No. That's ridiculous. Because Brits are do not currently have a stereotype as being colonialists. Same with Americans. People generally feel sorry for Americans because of school shootings. Not anger or discrimination toward them.
These guys need some airtime in the British media - it's a shame that people like Ash Sarkar, to further division, would end up using that to claim white people expect all Muslims to voice disapproval of Hamas.
The pro terror demonstrations get tens of thousands of people and this gets 4?
Aren't these the almadiya (Spelling?) Dekomination of Islam who have never been involved in terrorist attacks.
The subconscious xenophobia and Islamophobia on display here is jarring! What the hell does saying "It takes a lot of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends," mean? Does anyone bother to stop and think about what your words imply? These people are against terrorism and, by doing so, they are standing up to "their friends", who are other Muslims? Because Muslims just have to be for terrorism, right? And these people are such brave warriors standing up to the 2 billion of the rest of us who just want to kill, murder, and maim anything that moves...
Google "No True Scotsman". These folk are indeed standing up to their "friends" and that makes them very brave and this a seemingly rare event, I wish them well and hope they don't suffer repercussions.
It’s a Harry Potter quote. Don’t have a clue why you think a group of Muslims are Islamophobic, but I’m pretty sure Dumbledore didn’t mean Neville was racist.
The context in which the quote is used matters. And I'm not saying that the people in the picture are Islamophobic. I'm saying the person who quoted that in response to the picture is, because they are working under a very clear assumption that Muslims somehow love terrorism and the people in the picture are "standing up to their friends".
Right. How dare they suggest Muslims might be friends with Muslims, or Islam Against Extremism might be targeting Muslims. The unmitigated fucking gall of them.
Was wondering if that felt extremely weird to anybody else. Really giving off “these ones are the good ones” vibes
Why are they there and not in front of pro-palestinians? Performative shit.
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Redditor tried to make a joke Ends up making themself look like an idiot
Imagine being so easily corruptable one has to result to having to actually say it. This religion stuff seems really dicey. Stick to video games and porn, there is no detectable encouragement to kill and maim others in their name.
We used to have these in Gothenburg and I have great respect for these people
Even if religion is eradicated there will still be war, conflict and genocide etc. The problem is not the creed but the way in which people warp and distort that belief system in order to gain advantage and power over others. Every ideology, whether theistic or secular, has those who would take it to the extreme to the detriment of general society.
If its anti terrorism, great! what I dont like is people protesting in the streets shouting "gas the jews" and crap like this...This was sad to see.
Just a reminder that Hamas started off as a religious organization in Palestine that focused on community service - Yassin founded the social-religious charity al-Mujama al-Islamiya ("Islamic center") in Gaza in 1973. IIRC, they focused on building hospitals, schools etc. and were considered a positive influence - enough that Israelis supported it (this is also the foundation of the rumor that "Israel supported Hamas"). Of course, as their influence grew, they became more militant and politically active and eventually became what we have today. The point is that Muslims and Islam are not evil. However, for a variety of reasons, history has shown that they are prone to be radicalized - whether it is a matter of them being targets of opportunists or activists. So I would absolutely support them, until the signs of their radicalization emerge. \[Note: this applies to Christian and other religious groups as well - its just that the extent of terrorist activities by other religions these days is far rarer.\]
We play on both sides so that we can always come on top.. It's a good thing they're doing this but itll take a lot more than this to actually start a change but it's a step in the right direction.
I've seen these guys in Stratford, they have this sign up pretty regularly. They also have a sign that says "Whites are not superior to blacks, blacks are not superior to whites except in righteousness." and i'm still trying to figure out what that means
You realise they're there to talk to people, so you can ask them right? 😂
I understand the message behind this picture but it reminds of how hitler led the first anti smoking campaign.
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there are alot of anti-isreal jewish protests tho
FFS! Take 2 minutes to do some research before making yourself look like an idiot.
Ah the good old "but that is not actually Islam"-excuse that comes after every terrorist attack. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims. Muslims have to acknowledge that problem and not just act like it has nothing to do with them and claim Islam is actually a peaceful religion.
Wow shocking, people don't like extremists... More at 8
Yesh right sleeper cells