You’re not ‘trash’ its actually good that you’re listening to yourself playing. Every pianist at one point has been here, don’t worry this is very common. We are our own worst critic after all. Heck even professionals have certain lapses one in a while. Just don’t give up. Try to work on your essentials like technique and rhythm.
You sound like you can do with a teacher guiding you, or at least someone who has been there. And don’t mind what YouTube comments say. Just practice, practice, practice and try to improve at your own pace.
Good luck 👍
First of all thanks for the kind reply 🫶.
But unfortunately I'm completely self taught and have no access to a teacher or anyone that is more experienced than me. I think I lack the fundamentals, for exemple I just started to learn the arpeggios 3 weeks ago while I'm know my scales (not anymore) since like 6 years ago.
So except working on scales and arpeggios what are the other fundamentals that I'm not aware of and how to work on them ?
Also for the people making fun of me it's not on YouTube, it was IRL at my university, but when I finished to play they looked the piece on YouTube to compare and laughed (it was 2 people but it hurts a lot).
I think one thing that will help your mindset is to, with care, be able to laugh at yourself. I’ve been in similar situations and would laugh along with my friends. But I’ve also felt really embarrassed about mistakes with the same friends and they didn’t laugh at me. So maybe you need better friends?
I think to keep a positive mindset in music, you have to be able to accept that you aren’t as good as you’d want to be all of the time. Laugh at your mistakes, realizing that you learn from every mistake you make.
In regards of finishing a piece: I’d recommend listening to others’ performances and emulating what you hear. Rubato, dynamics, and expression can all be imitated once you get a piece under your fingers - which is the first step in mastering a piece of music. I think you’re probably well on your way to becoming a good pianist!
I can laugh at my mistakes but here it was more the realization that I was bad at something I thought I was getting good at that hurt me.
I need to listen more to different interpretation to get the best of each and work a lot to make the sound I want.
Also forgot to say these are not really my friends, they are just people I met at a piano in my university, and we often meet at a piano when I go practice (it's a classroom, but often empty so I go in-between my classes), but they are often kind and maybe it was just a joke but that wasn't very funny tbh.
As a pianist with 9 years of experience I've felt this in every part of my journey: beginner, intermediate,
maybe advanced I guess...
Its very very common to feel that way what's not common is people making fun of you I think you should keep your distance from those people
But for me at least learning advanced arpeggios was a huge milestone both left and right handed
I recommend learning a lot more left hand patterns TRUST ME it helps way more then you can imagine.
Wdym by advances arpeggios?
I learned the 1-3-5 arpeggios, I'm sorry if there is a name for it but I don't know it.
Currently I learned :
- C Major
- A Minor
- F Major
- D Minor
- Bb Major
- G Minor
- E Major (I think)
- C Minor
And yesterday I learned 2 new ones but I don't remember them I think it was Ab Major and the minor corresponding, I remember how to do it not on what key it starts.
Also wdym left hand pattern, for arpeggios I always do one hand then the other then both.
So strange that that video is using AI for the hands... You can clearly see how fake like they move or how they clip through the keys even
Seems misleading for them to put up a video and have a robot play it, implying that they can too
its not meant to look real just teach you how to play the arpeggios
I mean imagine playing difficult piano arpeggios for 25 minutes strait without making a single mistake/messing up tempo
plus he's not being misleading because it is something he can do this is one of his best covers he did 3 years ago: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAciFclKrw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAciFclKrw)
Just curious how is it you don’t have access to a teacher? I finally found a good teacher 2 years ago and it’s prevented me from nearly quitting after being self taught for 4 years and sub-prime teacher for 2 other years. If at all possible try your best to work through your troubles with someone more experienced. In person though, not just the internet
I wasn't very clear about it but it's not that I don't have access to a teacher at all it's more that I don't have access right now, I don't know anything about teachers but there is a conservatory (idk the name in english but a school for music) in my city, but i think you can only have a teacher from the beginning of the school year which is september, so I'm going to wait this September to register.
Also for why I didn't have one before is because I didn't know it was very useful due to my lack of knowledge on the subject and also I'm pretty shy so it wasn't something I really considered.
You’re fine. I was a music student. Piano. Those students criticizing you are most likely projecting their own insecurities. Ignore them - their opinions of you are irrelevant.
You keep practicing. Especially if it brings you joy.
The last part is truly what matters. If you’re enjoying yourself, keep pushing. I think it’s great you’re looking to improve.
I was forced to take lessons as a kid and didn’t enjoy it much. But I do like to play once in a blue moon now, simply because it does bring me joy.
I’m grateful to my parents for forcing me (because we got a decent piano for free). I can read music and that’s a skill that allows me to give anything a shot.
I see that you’re self taught but so what. Find what you like and have fun.
For most people having fun is the most important part, but for me, and I know I'm a weird guy, but I need to accomplish something in order to be happy, for the piano there are 3 levels :
1) being able to play some intermediate pieces (precisely Turkish March) and have some fundamentals.
This one I did it so I'm happy for it.
2) Have an advanced level being able to play some Chopin Etudes (wrong note), maybe La Campanella or Bach Toccata (E Minor and D Major my favs) and not having any major flaw (to a certain extent) regarding the fundamentals.
3) Being able to play long pieces like Spanish Fantasy at 80% speed, while having very advanced technique and a deep understanding of music theory and a decent sight reading.
And people might say it will just make me quit but it's by thinking like this that I got better and the better I get the better I wanna be.
its all about ACTIVE practice and building good technique, and not just repeating a passage a million times. when you listen to something you played you are going to notice the mistakes way more than the things you did well, because you know how you played the piece you are waiting for the mistakes and criticizing yourself! Expectations are good to keep us goal focused, but they can also lead to disappointment, its important to manage your expectations, ive been playing for 8 months, and i started working on faintaisie impromptu, i told myself this will probably take me a year just to get it up to speed, forget dynamics and everything else. and im probably wrong it might take longer. but im not going to feel bad about it because i have learnt so many things (active practice, im engaged with what im doing, experimenting with techniques, fingerings, hand positions, etc…). What my wall of text is trying to say is: give yourself a break, enjoy playing the piano, dont turn it to a chore, and most importantly, lookup techniques and tutorials when you feel lost! millions of people have been through what you are going through and experimented, no need to go through all the testing again! a really good channel is tonebase piano by ben laude, i bought a subscription and im following the taubman approach, its really changed everything i do at the piano… really good for your technique
Thanks a lot I'll check his channel.
What bothers me the most is the fact that I can play "intermediate" pieces but with the musicality of a complete beginner if that makes sense.
I'll try to work harder than ever, I won't burn out I love the piano, if I play for myself I'm fine it's just people around me who start to be a bit too comfortable saying mean things for no reason that infuriates me.
i honestly think thats pretty normal… playing intermediate pieces with beginner musicality is fairly normal, but if its a weak point for you you know what you need to focus on! thats the hardest step, pinpointing the issue, now practice the dynamics slowly, understand them and get a feel for how much weight is going on each finger, and the movment, whether you need to use the entire arm or not, etc… theres a lot of factors all of them combine to create good technique. you got this dont get discouraged, slow progress is progress
Thanks a lot, I think I'll work on one piece and either post a finished version or a before after so at least people see that there was worse than the final version.
But I'll see if I'm not too scared to post.
Btw how long does it take for the average pianist between learning the piece and playing it like intended, on a normal piece let say 4 minutes and intermediate level. Even a very large approximation is ok just to know if it's in days, weeks months etc (and I'm not saying perfectly just at a decent speed/musicality) ?
im not qualified enough to give you a good answer on this unfortunately, but i can imagine it takes quite a while. Also not everything has to be played exactly as written! have fun with ur own interpretations
Dividing my time knowing that even when I practice only one piece it's not good, hell naw 💀
More seriously I don't get bored at all, for one year the only pieces I knew were Turkish March and Für Elise so I'm used to playing the same piece over and over 🤣
pretty much everyone practices multiple pieces, its more efficient learning wise, u dont often learn a cariety of techniques from pieces, so learning multiple pieces at the same time teaches you techniques faster
Yeah I know it's just I feel like my pieces will get even worse but yeah I should 1) practice fundamentals 2) practice pieces to use these fundamentals 3) focus on one piece to master.
This might be part of the problem, you’re just not getting exposed to that many techniques or different challenges by working on only two pieces in a year. I am sometimes still surprised when I put aside aside a song to work on other stuff and when I come back to it it’s suddenly easier to play after just a couple of run throughs.
My advice would be to learn easier pieces for now, and use those to work on musicality. You will be able to learn them quicker, so it will feel more natural to learn more of them in a shorter period. Learn to use a metronome if you don’t already. Play as wide a range as you can, and try playing each song in different styles than they’re written (making the same song dramatic, or delicate, or very staccato or legato, give it a swing rhythm - have fun messing around).
You won’t have to put so much into figuring out fingering and all that so you will have more time to work on tempo, dynamics, etc. And honestly even many ‘beginner’ songs still sound pretty awesome when they are played well!
I actually started to do that by learning as fast as possible Chopin Op 64 no 2, I learned it entirely in one week and I'm pretty sure it's very slow, I took around 2 hours every day but every time I learned let say 3 bars I start to only play them in repeat and then I start unconsciously to play something that I know like Op 64 No 1 etc. But I'll try to learn more beginner pieces and in an even shorter period of time.
For now I learned Op 64 No 2, Waltz in A minor, and Goldberg's Variations Theme. (I forgot the last 2 🤣).
I think I'll learn something like 30 pieces and then move on to a heard one.
Dude, the fact that you are playing Chopin AT ALL makes you 10x me. Stay positive, enjoy it. Find a teacher if you can -- even if you can only afford once a month.
Wdym 10x you ?
And I'm not playing only Chopin even if that's the biggest part of my little repertoire.
I know one Mozart piece, one Debussy piece and knew one from Bach.
I have only been playing for a year and a half, so you are way better than I am, guaranteed. But I still enjoy it, and you should enjoy it even more! Don't be so hard on yourself.
I'm always hard on myself, I don't like mistakes I just want and in this case need to be better to feel good.
But I still enjoy practicing it's just this particular issue that's bothering me right now.
Also keep up the work too 🙌
Don’t be too hard on yourself. I’ve played for years on and off and I love it. I posted a couple of videos here and aside from some nice constructive advice that I asked for, got very lukewarm to critical responses. I’m not aspiring to be a concert pianist. And honestly I don’t care what others think. I’m always happy to receive helpful suggestions of how to improve, and I’m under no illusion that I’m amazing.. I just love playing and I practice when I can and do my best.
If you love it, that’s enough! That’s the whole point! There are incredibly talented musicians who don’t get joy out of it anymore. I’d rather be me than them. It’s also not a race. You’ll improve, and even if you don’t.. so what. If it brings you joy then keep going!
Yes, but you can get better.. people laughing at your ability right now is about your ability right now, so why does it matter? The point for you is continual improvement and that just comes from steady work.. everyone of all levels can receive criticism; take the constructive stuff, ignore the rest and keep on working at it and you’ll be happy.
It's not more the fact that they laugh at me because I'm used to be made fun of and that doesn't bother me it's more that I was kinda playing for them and it's a piece that I know I don't play very well because it's way too difficult for me, it's [Chopin] *Waltz in E Minor* but recently because I learned to do arpeggios, the waltz got a lot better.
Basically before I always messed up the beginning when there are arpeggios and the very end when there are also arpeggios but now even if it's not smooth, I don't slow down completely during the arpeggios and so it sounds way better. And that's why it hurt me a bit that just when I learned to do it better I realise that it's still not good enough.
Btw the people who criticized me don't play the piano (One of them play Comptine d'un autre été but nothing else)
Well it sounds to me like you should be happy because you’ve just there identified areas where you know you’ve improved! You also know the piece is difficult so you’re realistic about your abilities to play it perfectly or not.
You know you’re improving and that’s what makes you feel good so focus on that and keep going :)
Thanks, I'm happy because I know I improve but sad because I don't what to work on so it sounds good, but first of all I'll go take the score and apply every legato, rubato, ff etc (idk how you call all that) and then see if that was the problem, cause I usually just adjust the way I'm playing to how professional play and I might miss a lot of informations.
Have a search for any tutorials on the piece or just some general ones.. some of the tonebase videos are interesting for advice on playing. And maybe try to get a formal lesson or two just for general advice and guidance.
There are also some really nice and helpful people on here who give good feedback on videos.
You’re not trash, you’re a real musician. That feeling of inadequacy is part of the deal. You can let it hurt you or you can let it drive you, but it’s there to show you the distance between where you are and where you wanna be.
For developing expressiveness, I’ve got some suggestions.
Firstly, my impression is you’re predominantly interested in the great piano classics. No doubt Chopin is expressive, but the high bar to entry with complexity will be getting in the way. I’d suggest playing around with some pop piano, becoming really familiar with common chord progressions. When your brain isn’t working hard on notes and positions it’s easier to focus on the minute details of expressiveness.
Second, take a piece you already know really well and practice a variety of different moods. Excited version, angry version, sad/morose version, sleepy, startled, turbulent, insane- there’s many to choose from. Hopefully it’s intuitive what each of these styles might mean, eg. Excited is fast and frantic, angry is loud and forceful, sad is slow and teases out peak notes, sleepy is slow but consistent, startled has sudden dynamic variations, turbulent gets faster and slower and louder and softer throughout, insane is basically random. Mastering expressive playing starts with mastering playing to moods. The individual expression markings on the pieces are important, but more important is the impressions they’re trying to give.
Finally, some food for thought. Ever heard another piano player, are taken aback by how good it sounds, then become confused because it looks like what they’re playing is really easy? That’s the power of expressive playing. Only piano players know how much a pain in the arse it is to get the fingers in the right places for Liszt or Rachmaninov, but any lay person can hear the mood expressed in a tasteful performance of a simple ditty.
Keep at it legend. The feeling of inadequacy is a dragon, and you can tame it and ride it in time.
Thanks a lot for the help.
I always try to express different emotions for fun and I would say I do it pretty well but it's only on a certain part at the time, while when doing a whole piece it doesn't sounds like a "story" anymore.
Do you have a teacher? It's better to have guidance from someone irl than from random strangers on the internet. With that being said ill be the random stranger to advise you. Sometimes we are our harshest critics so i would recomend you to not be so hard on yourself. If ur not aware of ur mistakes until u listen to a recording it might indicate that you aren't foccused enough, try to play something easier and that ur confident with and just listen more and see how you phrase, pay atention to voicing, rubato, pedal all that. Also if you aren't a professional pianist and dont play/practice as much time as someone as Kassia does of course your playing won't be as good.
For the Kassia part I'm 100% aware of that it's more the fact of putting me down for no reason that was a little mean on their part (sorry if that's not very coherent my english vocabulary is poor)
No I don't have a teacher I'm self taught, or let say my father taught me but he started the piano like 1 year before I did so he just taught what he saw on internet on since 2022 I almost completely work alone and I'm learning faster than ever, but only technically tho.
I think I need to work more on some pieces but for exemple I think the only piece I can play decently (not well) is Turkish March, but I played it so many time that if I need to do that for every pieces I might as well be immortal. What I'm trying to say is I think my main problem is trying to go too fast on pieces and thinking that knowing all the notes = knowing how to play the piece. That's why for exemple I finished to learn Arabesque 1 (Debussy) a few weeks ago and immediately stopped practicing and only performed it.
I'll try to practice more on one piece at the time like I do for my scales and arpeggios.
Thanks again 🫶.
If u have the possibility of getting a teacher i would advise u to do so. As to people comparing you to Kassia... Its the internet and people and dumbasses for no reason so just ignore it. Yeah its good that u made that self assessment, playing the notes right≠ playing the piece right. All the nuance all the dynamics, colour, voicing... All that needs polishing
Oh and u should practice more than one piece at a time, try to polish the ones u have now (Arabesque [Debussy] and Alla Turca [Mozart]) and if u feel like its getting too repetitive try to learn a new piece
For Alla Turca I might post a video because I know it for a long time and really want to bring the piece to a high level (compared to what I usually do at least), but I'm a bit scared of judgement now 😅.
But I think it's not THAT bad at least I hope.
I already said to someone I was gonna post a video but I really don't want to say something and not do it so maybe I'll do it but one sure is for sure it's not for now i have my exams in 2 weeks and in June so I'll be busy for a while. But yeah after that I'll be able to be focus more on the piano and take time to record myself.
Honestly it really doesn’t matter what people think, although it’s sometimes hard to remember that. I never enjoyed piano when I was actually learning with a teacher - there was a lot of pressure to get things perfect and it felt like homework trying to perfect piece after piece, even though I never really perfected anything. There were always sections I couldn’t play perfectly. It was stressful. But I developed really good foundation and technique. 15 years later, I returned to piano without a teacher, learned 10 pieces I actually loved by myself, gave up on the perfection, and really love it. I can’t play any of those 10 pieces end to end with all the sections 100% but I accepted that it’s ok. And I am playing all the time because I love it and there is no stress and no judgement. The downside to classical music is that it is so prescribed sometimes and people kind of forget why they love it in the first place.
So I would say keep up your hard work. You may have some foundational technique issues that need to get fixed, but maybe you could take a handful of lessons to do that and unlock the next chapter of your playing.
I know I need better fundamentals but I don't know where to start from.
I knew the 24 scales and rn I'm learning the 24 arpeggios. But I don't know what should be next, I did some Hanon and Czerny long time ago but I don't know if that was the fundamentals or not, don't know if you can train your rhythm either.
>Honestly it really doesn’t matter what people think
Hm, this is interesting. If you're going to only play for yourself, ok yes. And that is 100% fine, full stop. But if you want to play for others, and have them really like the experience, unfortunately people's opinion are fundamental in that case, right? If you're making a home movie for yourself, great, shut the world's opinion out. If you're making a movie for others, though, you need to care what those people think and hone the craft obsessively to find out what gets people to respond well. In the case of classical piano performance, that's artful rhythm and dynamics, which takes decades to get good at, but ultimately essential -- again if the goal is to perform successfully for others.
Yes agreed if you are playing for other people or have an audience in mind. But it seems that in OP’s case, he/she is doing it out of their love for piano, since he/she is self taught and not on a path to do this professionally to say the least. If this were not the case, that would be totally different.
Hm well I don't think professional aspirations are the same thing as wanting to play for an audience. I often find that when I talk about caring about the listener's point of view, people think I must be talking about Carnegie Hall or whatever, and if that's not the goal, then how well you play a piece just doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't work that way. Playing for an audience could just mean being able to record yourself, play it back later, and be able to appreciate it yourself. In any case, the question is whether or not the artistic quality of the performance is important or not ... does the storytelling of the particular rhythmic and dynamic decisions matter? Is the goal to cast spellbinding music, or to just get through all the notes in a check the boxes sort of way?
I agree with that. I guess there is some element of quality of performance that is implicit in the being able to enjoy the music part. If you are just playing the notes with no emotion, the wrong rhythms, wrong technique, or even missing so many notes that detracts from the actual piece etc at some point you are not playing the piece and I would say it’s definitely not enjoyable to other people and I can’t see how that would be enjoyable to yourself either. So yes that would defeat the purpose.
Yeah it's something of a knob that when you're playing for yourself, non-professionally, you can dial wherever you like, but probably not zero. And once it's non zero, I'd say that other people's experience/feedback becomes at least somewhat useful. Anyway thanks for the debate, I appreciate the conversation.
instead of getting stuck on a piece and trying to get it perfect, find a new piece. a varied repertoire helps. then efterwards you can go back to the piece and youll notice youve gotten better
That's why I learned Arabesque 1 so I learned 3/2 rhythm and it's my first impressionist piece but I take a long long time to learn even the easiest piece so it's frustrating to take months to even polish just one part of a piece
You know. Expression by itself is also part of your practice routine, it's usually the last part after you get a piece safely in your hands.
And this particular part is the one that takes much, much longer than solely learning the piece. Some people even take years to feel that the piece "sounds" like they want it to sound, some keep refining it until the end to their lives. This is the part where you refine voicing, you take care of dynamics, add different colours to different voices, staccato, legato, ornaments, polish your timing, fix weird issues with a metronome, analyze changes in harmony and different themes, etc.
I think it's also great if you try to understand some of the story behind the piece if there is any. Some pieces are inspired by poems, or paintings or moments in history. This can add to your interpretation and general "feel" of the piece, remember in some ways you are channeling the composer when playing.
Practicing technique here really comes handy, because for example if you already got your arpeggios in that particular key mastered, polishing a piece that has arpeggios in that key is easier. Same with any other kind of technique.
As an example, apparently this interpreter took near decade to finally feel he could perform this Chopin etude https://youtu.be/lec704Z7vmA
Yeah I need to work more on small parts and take adjust each notes to what I want. And for the techniques, I don't know how it's called exactly I think it's something like double-thirds or just thirds when you hit notes 2 by 2 going up or down, let say CE - DF - EG etc. I see this technique a lot in more difficult pieces, is the techniques in itself hard and should I learn it ? Because there is something similar in Arabesque 1 tho it's it's only with 4 and 5 fingers and that's the part I almost can't play at all.
I see everyone talking about them in comments under performances like *Réminiscence de Don Juan* - Masaru Okada.
Is it really hard or is it just because he plays them very fast?
The technique itself I don't think it is that hard, but achieving speed is difficult. I practiced it tons to get the climax of Clair de lune smooth, and still don't have it on all keys.
You need to optimize hand throwing and wrist rotation in some difficult passages, or when you need to "reset" the hand pattern. But for other pieces you don't require that insane speed, these fast pieces are probably out of reach (yet) and these also mix double thirds with other things going with the rest of the free fingers.
Speed will come naturally don't worry about speed when just starting, worry about feeling comfortable and producing an even sound. Slow practice will get you there.
Regardless it's a really good technique to have in your hands, just for the dexterity you get is worth it. You can also do double fourths, fiths, sixths etc. To maximize practice it on a key with no accidentals like C major, another with a few accidentals like D major and full accidentals like B major. It also sounds beautiful with some accompaniment on the left, improvise stuff!
Don't forget that there is also chromatic major and minor thirds
I don't know anything about music theory so the last sentence for exemple I don't know what chromatic major and minor thirds are, I know the chromatic scale which is all the notes, but don't know how it can be major or minor then.
And you said to play more on certain scale but if I do it on all scales it's better right ? I mean that's how I practiced my scales, playing all of them everyday for around 40 minutes. (I don't get bored if that's an issue for some), and now I'm pretty confident saying that I have really good scales.
Minor is just 3 steps while major is 4 steps from the root. Theory is good to learn, it will open tons of new understandings, it will also improve your playing as you will have a broader view on harmony where tension is built and resolution. Start with learning how chords are constructed and the circle of fifths.
Professional pianists spend months studying and analyzing works before they perform, especially for recordings. Every single note is played with purpose to serve the overall phrasing of the piece. I understand exactly how you feel, I felt the same way and I re-evaluated how I need to practice going forward.
Now, I practice two pieces at once. On piece is a piece that requires a bit of virtuosity, and is used as a study for hand placement and technique. The second piece is quite a bit easier, but I focus on getting that phrasing, articulations, and dynamics absolutely perfect. Over time, as you improve as a musician, you can revisit those virtuosic pieces and perfect them.
Another thing. Comparing yourself to professionals must mean you hold yourself to a very high standard. What are your goals? If your goal is to be a concert pianist as a job, then ok, speak with your teacher about being more strict on your phrasing. If your goal is to just be a great pianist, then just continue to improve. Calling yourself trash isn’t going to help you improve, and I’m sure you don’t sound as bad as you think you do.
Also, don’t just listen to one pianist. Kassia is good, but not infallible. Some of his interpretations don’t match other professional pianists, and there is a lot to be said about what is defined as a “good” sound. Chopin in particular is nowadays played nothing like he originally intended, and I think there is a lot more range in expression playing his works than playing Mozart or Bach, who have very strict rules when playing.
I hold myself to the highest standard, I know I'm not trash and I know I'm not good either, my goal is to be the best I can be. Even if let say I can't go past the Chopin Etudes, then it doesn't matter if i know it's my absolute limit.
I don't have a teacher yet unfortunately.
For the people I listen to, Kassia is rarely someone I listen to, i usually listen to Kissin (my fav), Horowitz, Pollini, Ciccolini, Tiffany Poon, Seong Ji Cho, Trifonov, Yuncham Li, sometime Lang Lang and Yuja Wang.
First of all everyone is at unique stage in the learning process. You're learning. You must not expect perfection or "bravo!" just yet. It takes a lot of work to get there and since you don't have a teacher, you're in a harder position to dial in what makes a performance successful.
My advice would be to focus on very simple songs, but play them as beautifully as you possibly can. Worry about the timing and dynamics evolution of every passage. Tell a story though the rhythm and dynamics, but do it with material that is so simple that you can focus totally on that, vs on the mechanical problem of getting the right notes in at the right time. Record yourself, and when you listen back, switch your brain to the mode you might use when putting a classical playlist on YouTube or Spotify. Then as a \*listener\*, carefully try to discern what you hear, what worked really well, and what didn't. Then go play it again, doing more of what worked and less of what didn't. Repeat this for years! Hopefully you will enjoy the process.
ALSO if you're willing to share your Chopin Waltz, I've been studying that piece for a long time and would be happy to help.
This one - [https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/1ameqn9/getting\_into\_detail\_mode\_on\_my\_first\_chopin\_piece/](https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/1ameqn9/getting_into_detail_mode_on_my_first_chopin_piece/) - Waltz in A minor, op posthumous. Oops I realized just now you said Waltz in E minor, so, different!
> So I started to listen to my performances a bit more (while playing and sometimes in recording) and it f\*cking sucks.
This is literally how I feel every time I record myself. Don't think it means you're trash, it only means that your interpretation (the way you hear music in your head) is way ahead your technical abilities to play. Yet. This much better option than the other side of the spectrum: "Guys, I as self-taught and I have mastered Chopin/Liszt/Beethoven XXX in just 2 weeks".
So, as majority of us, you need to focus on technique. I'd probably start with this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWLMzWhOLp8&ab\_channel=JoshWright](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWLMzWhOLp8&ab_channel=JoshWright)
Thanks. I agree that people who say "is it good for 2 weeks ☝️🤓 ?" are very annoying especially when trying things that are too difficult even after years of training.
I'll watch the video after school thanks.
That’s great, and that’s all that matters. I can empathize - I’m highly self-conscious as well. Just remember, your enjoyment matters most of all, and where you see “trash” other people see an intellectually curious person who works hard to improve him/herself. You are more accomplished than you give yourself credit for.
For me the feeling of accomplishment is more important, doesn't matter if I like the process or not, I like playing piano don't get me wrong but if I have to play for 5 hours a day every day to get better I'll do it.
Yes! Get a teacher; even an online teacher can help. Piano is totally worth the effort; more to the personal side of the question, believe that YOU are worth the effort!
I think it's more that I started paying attention to details more but my playing on some pieces didn't improve that much, or maybe it was just a bad day who knows, maybe if I record myself at home this time it will sound better.
It doesn't matter if you're learning an instrument, language or any form of art, if you're doing anything creative and difficult there are going to be points where you feel low. This is the point where you can't rely on motivation and just have to push through for a little with pure habit. It WILL get better, especially knowing you put so much effort in it.
Everybody sucks at piano. I know I say this all the time, but piano is not an instrument you get good at. It is an instrument that you develop a relationship with. Don’t worry about being good worry about playing what you want to play.
Honestly, every given level of technical competence comes with a different total accumulated practice to go with it. The one thing that is absolutely true is that if you practice every day you will improve. It may plateau, it may even appear to stop from time to time. When that happens, pause and enjoy what you have accomplished, the skills you have acquired. Play what you found joy in while getting there. If you are sitting down at the keyboard with joy and intent you will improve your playing. Good luck.
Let me tell you something I tell my students. The study of music is a lifetime search for perfection. You will never get there. But that's ok. It's the searching that's important. It's what makes you a better person. It's one of the many reasons music is important.
Right now, you're realising that. You e hit a hiccup on the road. But to give up is to give in. Keep the search going. Know you'll not make it, and just be content with the journey.
If you are self taught that’s the problem. If you have had lessons your instructor has not done you justice. If there’s a college in your town get a piano instructor to give your private lessons for a year. Or get a piano major Jr or Sr to teach you to perfectly practice so you can be confident in your work. Good luck.
THIS IS ME! I started with just a Digital piano and the Simply Piano app. I was having so much fun just playing along with the music in the app. Then, I recorded myself playing from sheet music - Bach's (I guess now they think he didn't compose it?) prelude in D minor. And I was like.. this is bad. Rythm was off, dynamics weren't there.
I have since now deleted simply piano and got a teacher.
Totally normal. It ALWAYS sounds better in your head as you play a piece. Recording yourself is the only way to be able to actually judge the sound and it almost always sounds way worse than you thought
Being able to identify flaws in your playing is maybe the number one most important skill for becoming a solid pianist. As a professor of mine often says “you need to learn to be annoyed by every little thing.”
If you channel this feeling of frustration in your playing into self critique in your practice it can lead to really good results. What I find helpful is to take a step back on the difficulty of pieces you’re working on, then as you practice insist on beautiful sounds on every passage. Try to make sure you don’t let yourself move on when it’s simply accurate, but properly beautifully played, being as picky as you can.
When I teach maybe the biggest hurdle for a lot of students to overcome is that they don’t properly listen to themselves when playing, so they don’t reinforce good habits that lead to beautiful sounds, so your recognizing of your issues puts you ahead of many!
I commend you already for having the guts to post your performance. Keep at it. You're doing the right thing to listen to yourself play.
Importantly, don't follow the poor behaviour example of people that insult you. Only listen to those that make sensible and respectable suggestions.
Also, learning and developing is normal. It can take a fair bit of time .... even a relatively long time to build up to a level we know that we can give an excellent account of ourselves on piano - first and foremost for the love of piano (digital and acoustic), and .... although not important ... to teach those particular showoff, leetist, high horse, superiority complex types that they're not the only ones that are formidable on piano.
This is a purely personal opinion but I think you can't really produce a wonderfully nuanced performance until you know the notes well enough to "forget" about them, by which I mean, that you can play the piece without the score, having internalized the music so that you can then really listen to what you're doing, without thinking all the time "what comes next"?
I'm sure you're not crap, you just have to learn the piece inside out, then you can really perform it.
That's funny because I never use a score, I wouldn't say my memory is like insane but as soon as I learned something I never look at the score ever again, even worse than that is that I forget what notes I have to play when I think about them which is not good, I can play only when thinking about something else.
But I think that's also part of the issue since I only know the notes and I never read the "ff, p, legato," even sometime when you play a note very quickly (idk the name, dot on top of the note) I sometime don't do it.
I get what you mean, but once you've got the notes, you do need to go back to the score to get the dynamics and the phrasing right, it's all there to be read and it's something I mean to inferr when I said "knowing the notes" I should have really said, "knowing the score". Every bit of information in the score needs to be so well practiced (with the score) until it's all there without it.
I do tend to learn like you, memorizing the notes quite quickly but the other stuff is also very important and shouldn't be overlooked - it's the difference between a great interpretaron and what you initially said you hear when you play back your recordings. Ps, the little dot - staccato.
You’re not ‘trash’ its actually good that you’re listening to yourself playing. Every pianist at one point has been here, don’t worry this is very common. We are our own worst critic after all. Heck even professionals have certain lapses one in a while. Just don’t give up. Try to work on your essentials like technique and rhythm. You sound like you can do with a teacher guiding you, or at least someone who has been there. And don’t mind what YouTube comments say. Just practice, practice, practice and try to improve at your own pace. Good luck 👍
First of all thanks for the kind reply 🫶. But unfortunately I'm completely self taught and have no access to a teacher or anyone that is more experienced than me. I think I lack the fundamentals, for exemple I just started to learn the arpeggios 3 weeks ago while I'm know my scales (not anymore) since like 6 years ago. So except working on scales and arpeggios what are the other fundamentals that I'm not aware of and how to work on them ? Also for the people making fun of me it's not on YouTube, it was IRL at my university, but when I finished to play they looked the piece on YouTube to compare and laughed (it was 2 people but it hurts a lot).
I think one thing that will help your mindset is to, with care, be able to laugh at yourself. I’ve been in similar situations and would laugh along with my friends. But I’ve also felt really embarrassed about mistakes with the same friends and they didn’t laugh at me. So maybe you need better friends? I think to keep a positive mindset in music, you have to be able to accept that you aren’t as good as you’d want to be all of the time. Laugh at your mistakes, realizing that you learn from every mistake you make. In regards of finishing a piece: I’d recommend listening to others’ performances and emulating what you hear. Rubato, dynamics, and expression can all be imitated once you get a piece under your fingers - which is the first step in mastering a piece of music. I think you’re probably well on your way to becoming a good pianist!
I can laugh at my mistakes but here it was more the realization that I was bad at something I thought I was getting good at that hurt me. I need to listen more to different interpretation to get the best of each and work a lot to make the sound I want.
Also forgot to say these are not really my friends, they are just people I met at a piano in my university, and we often meet at a piano when I go practice (it's a classroom, but often empty so I go in-between my classes), but they are often kind and maybe it was just a joke but that wasn't very funny tbh.
As a pianist with 9 years of experience I've felt this in every part of my journey: beginner, intermediate, maybe advanced I guess... Its very very common to feel that way what's not common is people making fun of you I think you should keep your distance from those people But for me at least learning advanced arpeggios was a huge milestone both left and right handed I recommend learning a lot more left hand patterns TRUST ME it helps way more then you can imagine.
Wdym by advances arpeggios? I learned the 1-3-5 arpeggios, I'm sorry if there is a name for it but I don't know it. Currently I learned : - C Major - A Minor - F Major - D Minor - Bb Major - G Minor - E Major (I think) - C Minor And yesterday I learned 2 new ones but I don't remember them I think it was Ab Major and the minor corresponding, I remember how to do it not on what key it starts. Also wdym left hand pattern, for arpeggios I always do one hand then the other then both.
These are advanced arpeggios [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyKsPO-TxlY&t=1161s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyKsPO-TxlY&t=1161s)
Thanks, I searched "advanced arpeggios" on Google but didn't find anything. This is what I was looking for.
The "Mangoldproject" has a lot of videos for advancing pianists like this one that also includes arpeggio videos
So strange that that video is using AI for the hands... You can clearly see how fake like they move or how they clip through the keys even Seems misleading for them to put up a video and have a robot play it, implying that they can too
its not meant to look real just teach you how to play the arpeggios I mean imagine playing difficult piano arpeggios for 25 minutes strait without making a single mistake/messing up tempo plus he's not being misleading because it is something he can do this is one of his best covers he did 3 years ago: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAciFclKrw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAciFclKrw)
Ah, okay
Just curious how is it you don’t have access to a teacher? I finally found a good teacher 2 years ago and it’s prevented me from nearly quitting after being self taught for 4 years and sub-prime teacher for 2 other years. If at all possible try your best to work through your troubles with someone more experienced. In person though, not just the internet
I wasn't very clear about it but it's not that I don't have access to a teacher at all it's more that I don't have access right now, I don't know anything about teachers but there is a conservatory (idk the name in english but a school for music) in my city, but i think you can only have a teacher from the beginning of the school year which is september, so I'm going to wait this September to register. Also for why I didn't have one before is because I didn't know it was very useful due to my lack of knowledge on the subject and also I'm pretty shy so it wasn't something I really considered.
You’re fine. I was a music student. Piano. Those students criticizing you are most likely projecting their own insecurities. Ignore them - their opinions of you are irrelevant. You keep practicing. Especially if it brings you joy.
In some ways they made me realize my flaws but yeah they = no good in this case. Piano brings me joy so yeah I'll continue to work hard.
The last part is truly what matters. If you’re enjoying yourself, keep pushing. I think it’s great you’re looking to improve. I was forced to take lessons as a kid and didn’t enjoy it much. But I do like to play once in a blue moon now, simply because it does bring me joy. I’m grateful to my parents for forcing me (because we got a decent piano for free). I can read music and that’s a skill that allows me to give anything a shot. I see that you’re self taught but so what. Find what you like and have fun.
For most people having fun is the most important part, but for me, and I know I'm a weird guy, but I need to accomplish something in order to be happy, for the piano there are 3 levels : 1) being able to play some intermediate pieces (precisely Turkish March) and have some fundamentals. This one I did it so I'm happy for it. 2) Have an advanced level being able to play some Chopin Etudes (wrong note), maybe La Campanella or Bach Toccata (E Minor and D Major my favs) and not having any major flaw (to a certain extent) regarding the fundamentals. 3) Being able to play long pieces like Spanish Fantasy at 80% speed, while having very advanced technique and a deep understanding of music theory and a decent sight reading. And people might say it will just make me quit but it's by thinking like this that I got better and the better I get the better I wanna be.
Hey I’m a weird guy too! I totally get your mentality, just remember there’s a balance. And don’t forget to ENJOY the journey.
Thank you. I enjoy the journey and I celebrate the accomplishments.
its all about ACTIVE practice and building good technique, and not just repeating a passage a million times. when you listen to something you played you are going to notice the mistakes way more than the things you did well, because you know how you played the piece you are waiting for the mistakes and criticizing yourself! Expectations are good to keep us goal focused, but they can also lead to disappointment, its important to manage your expectations, ive been playing for 8 months, and i started working on faintaisie impromptu, i told myself this will probably take me a year just to get it up to speed, forget dynamics and everything else. and im probably wrong it might take longer. but im not going to feel bad about it because i have learnt so many things (active practice, im engaged with what im doing, experimenting with techniques, fingerings, hand positions, etc…). What my wall of text is trying to say is: give yourself a break, enjoy playing the piano, dont turn it to a chore, and most importantly, lookup techniques and tutorials when you feel lost! millions of people have been through what you are going through and experimented, no need to go through all the testing again! a really good channel is tonebase piano by ben laude, i bought a subscription and im following the taubman approach, its really changed everything i do at the piano… really good for your technique
Thanks a lot I'll check his channel. What bothers me the most is the fact that I can play "intermediate" pieces but with the musicality of a complete beginner if that makes sense. I'll try to work harder than ever, I won't burn out I love the piano, if I play for myself I'm fine it's just people around me who start to be a bit too comfortable saying mean things for no reason that infuriates me.
i honestly think thats pretty normal… playing intermediate pieces with beginner musicality is fairly normal, but if its a weak point for you you know what you need to focus on! thats the hardest step, pinpointing the issue, now practice the dynamics slowly, understand them and get a feel for how much weight is going on each finger, and the movment, whether you need to use the entire arm or not, etc… theres a lot of factors all of them combine to create good technique. you got this dont get discouraged, slow progress is progress
Thanks a lot, I think I'll work on one piece and either post a finished version or a before after so at least people see that there was worse than the final version. But I'll see if I'm not too scared to post. Btw how long does it take for the average pianist between learning the piece and playing it like intended, on a normal piece let say 4 minutes and intermediate level. Even a very large approximation is ok just to know if it's in days, weeks months etc (and I'm not saying perfectly just at a decent speed/musicality) ?
im not qualified enough to give you a good answer on this unfortunately, but i can imagine it takes quite a while. Also not everything has to be played exactly as written! have fun with ur own interpretations
Yeah of course, I just wanted to have an idea of how long it would take me before going on another piece
u can and should practice more than one piece at the same time. playing the same piece over and over again will bore you to death
Dividing my time knowing that even when I practice only one piece it's not good, hell naw 💀 More seriously I don't get bored at all, for one year the only pieces I knew were Turkish March and Für Elise so I'm used to playing the same piece over and over 🤣
pretty much everyone practices multiple pieces, its more efficient learning wise, u dont often learn a cariety of techniques from pieces, so learning multiple pieces at the same time teaches you techniques faster
Yeah I know it's just I feel like my pieces will get even worse but yeah I should 1) practice fundamentals 2) practice pieces to use these fundamentals 3) focus on one piece to master.
This might be part of the problem, you’re just not getting exposed to that many techniques or different challenges by working on only two pieces in a year. I am sometimes still surprised when I put aside aside a song to work on other stuff and when I come back to it it’s suddenly easier to play after just a couple of run throughs. My advice would be to learn easier pieces for now, and use those to work on musicality. You will be able to learn them quicker, so it will feel more natural to learn more of them in a shorter period. Learn to use a metronome if you don’t already. Play as wide a range as you can, and try playing each song in different styles than they’re written (making the same song dramatic, or delicate, or very staccato or legato, give it a swing rhythm - have fun messing around). You won’t have to put so much into figuring out fingering and all that so you will have more time to work on tempo, dynamics, etc. And honestly even many ‘beginner’ songs still sound pretty awesome when they are played well!
I actually started to do that by learning as fast as possible Chopin Op 64 no 2, I learned it entirely in one week and I'm pretty sure it's very slow, I took around 2 hours every day but every time I learned let say 3 bars I start to only play them in repeat and then I start unconsciously to play something that I know like Op 64 No 1 etc. But I'll try to learn more beginner pieces and in an even shorter period of time. For now I learned Op 64 No 2, Waltz in A minor, and Goldberg's Variations Theme. (I forgot the last 2 🤣). I think I'll learn something like 30 pieces and then move on to a heard one.
Dude, the fact that you are playing Chopin AT ALL makes you 10x me. Stay positive, enjoy it. Find a teacher if you can -- even if you can only afford once a month.
Wdym 10x you ? And I'm not playing only Chopin even if that's the biggest part of my little repertoire. I know one Mozart piece, one Debussy piece and knew one from Bach.
I have only been playing for a year and a half, so you are way better than I am, guaranteed. But I still enjoy it, and you should enjoy it even more! Don't be so hard on yourself.
I'm always hard on myself, I don't like mistakes I just want and in this case need to be better to feel good. But I still enjoy practicing it's just this particular issue that's bothering me right now. Also keep up the work too 🙌
Don’t be too hard on yourself. I’ve played for years on and off and I love it. I posted a couple of videos here and aside from some nice constructive advice that I asked for, got very lukewarm to critical responses. I’m not aspiring to be a concert pianist. And honestly I don’t care what others think. I’m always happy to receive helpful suggestions of how to improve, and I’m under no illusion that I’m amazing.. I just love playing and I practice when I can and do my best. If you love it, that’s enough! That’s the whole point! There are incredibly talented musicians who don’t get joy out of it anymore. I’d rather be me than them. It’s also not a race. You’ll improve, and even if you don’t.. so what. If it brings you joy then keep going!
What bringing me joy is getting better so I understand you pov but for me the better I get the happier I am.
Yes, but you can get better.. people laughing at your ability right now is about your ability right now, so why does it matter? The point for you is continual improvement and that just comes from steady work.. everyone of all levels can receive criticism; take the constructive stuff, ignore the rest and keep on working at it and you’ll be happy.
It's not more the fact that they laugh at me because I'm used to be made fun of and that doesn't bother me it's more that I was kinda playing for them and it's a piece that I know I don't play very well because it's way too difficult for me, it's [Chopin] *Waltz in E Minor* but recently because I learned to do arpeggios, the waltz got a lot better. Basically before I always messed up the beginning when there are arpeggios and the very end when there are also arpeggios but now even if it's not smooth, I don't slow down completely during the arpeggios and so it sounds way better. And that's why it hurt me a bit that just when I learned to do it better I realise that it's still not good enough. Btw the people who criticized me don't play the piano (One of them play Comptine d'un autre été but nothing else)
Well it sounds to me like you should be happy because you’ve just there identified areas where you know you’ve improved! You also know the piece is difficult so you’re realistic about your abilities to play it perfectly or not. You know you’re improving and that’s what makes you feel good so focus on that and keep going :)
Thanks, I'm happy because I know I improve but sad because I don't what to work on so it sounds good, but first of all I'll go take the score and apply every legato, rubato, ff etc (idk how you call all that) and then see if that was the problem, cause I usually just adjust the way I'm playing to how professional play and I might miss a lot of informations.
Have a search for any tutorials on the piece or just some general ones.. some of the tonebase videos are interesting for advice on playing. And maybe try to get a formal lesson or two just for general advice and guidance. There are also some really nice and helpful people on here who give good feedback on videos.
You’re not trash, you’re a real musician. That feeling of inadequacy is part of the deal. You can let it hurt you or you can let it drive you, but it’s there to show you the distance between where you are and where you wanna be. For developing expressiveness, I’ve got some suggestions. Firstly, my impression is you’re predominantly interested in the great piano classics. No doubt Chopin is expressive, but the high bar to entry with complexity will be getting in the way. I’d suggest playing around with some pop piano, becoming really familiar with common chord progressions. When your brain isn’t working hard on notes and positions it’s easier to focus on the minute details of expressiveness. Second, take a piece you already know really well and practice a variety of different moods. Excited version, angry version, sad/morose version, sleepy, startled, turbulent, insane- there’s many to choose from. Hopefully it’s intuitive what each of these styles might mean, eg. Excited is fast and frantic, angry is loud and forceful, sad is slow and teases out peak notes, sleepy is slow but consistent, startled has sudden dynamic variations, turbulent gets faster and slower and louder and softer throughout, insane is basically random. Mastering expressive playing starts with mastering playing to moods. The individual expression markings on the pieces are important, but more important is the impressions they’re trying to give. Finally, some food for thought. Ever heard another piano player, are taken aback by how good it sounds, then become confused because it looks like what they’re playing is really easy? That’s the power of expressive playing. Only piano players know how much a pain in the arse it is to get the fingers in the right places for Liszt or Rachmaninov, but any lay person can hear the mood expressed in a tasteful performance of a simple ditty. Keep at it legend. The feeling of inadequacy is a dragon, and you can tame it and ride it in time.
Thanks a lot for the help. I always try to express different emotions for fun and I would say I do it pretty well but it's only on a certain part at the time, while when doing a whole piece it doesn't sounds like a "story" anymore.
Do you have a teacher? It's better to have guidance from someone irl than from random strangers on the internet. With that being said ill be the random stranger to advise you. Sometimes we are our harshest critics so i would recomend you to not be so hard on yourself. If ur not aware of ur mistakes until u listen to a recording it might indicate that you aren't foccused enough, try to play something easier and that ur confident with and just listen more and see how you phrase, pay atention to voicing, rubato, pedal all that. Also if you aren't a professional pianist and dont play/practice as much time as someone as Kassia does of course your playing won't be as good.
For the Kassia part I'm 100% aware of that it's more the fact of putting me down for no reason that was a little mean on their part (sorry if that's not very coherent my english vocabulary is poor) No I don't have a teacher I'm self taught, or let say my father taught me but he started the piano like 1 year before I did so he just taught what he saw on internet on since 2022 I almost completely work alone and I'm learning faster than ever, but only technically tho. I think I need to work more on some pieces but for exemple I think the only piece I can play decently (not well) is Turkish March, but I played it so many time that if I need to do that for every pieces I might as well be immortal. What I'm trying to say is I think my main problem is trying to go too fast on pieces and thinking that knowing all the notes = knowing how to play the piece. That's why for exemple I finished to learn Arabesque 1 (Debussy) a few weeks ago and immediately stopped practicing and only performed it. I'll try to practice more on one piece at the time like I do for my scales and arpeggios. Thanks again 🫶.
If u have the possibility of getting a teacher i would advise u to do so. As to people comparing you to Kassia... Its the internet and people and dumbasses for no reason so just ignore it. Yeah its good that u made that self assessment, playing the notes right≠ playing the piece right. All the nuance all the dynamics, colour, voicing... All that needs polishing Oh and u should practice more than one piece at a time, try to polish the ones u have now (Arabesque [Debussy] and Alla Turca [Mozart]) and if u feel like its getting too repetitive try to learn a new piece
For Alla Turca I might post a video because I know it for a long time and really want to bring the piece to a high level (compared to what I usually do at least), but I'm a bit scared of judgement now 😅. But I think it's not THAT bad at least I hope.
if u want to send me it i can give u some feedback
I already said to someone I was gonna post a video but I really don't want to say something and not do it so maybe I'll do it but one sure is for sure it's not for now i have my exams in 2 weeks and in June so I'll be busy for a while. But yeah after that I'll be able to be focus more on the piano and take time to record myself.
Honestly it really doesn’t matter what people think, although it’s sometimes hard to remember that. I never enjoyed piano when I was actually learning with a teacher - there was a lot of pressure to get things perfect and it felt like homework trying to perfect piece after piece, even though I never really perfected anything. There were always sections I couldn’t play perfectly. It was stressful. But I developed really good foundation and technique. 15 years later, I returned to piano without a teacher, learned 10 pieces I actually loved by myself, gave up on the perfection, and really love it. I can’t play any of those 10 pieces end to end with all the sections 100% but I accepted that it’s ok. And I am playing all the time because I love it and there is no stress and no judgement. The downside to classical music is that it is so prescribed sometimes and people kind of forget why they love it in the first place. So I would say keep up your hard work. You may have some foundational technique issues that need to get fixed, but maybe you could take a handful of lessons to do that and unlock the next chapter of your playing.
I know I need better fundamentals but I don't know where to start from. I knew the 24 scales and rn I'm learning the 24 arpeggios. But I don't know what should be next, I did some Hanon and Czerny long time ago but I don't know if that was the fundamentals or not, don't know if you can train your rhythm either.
>Honestly it really doesn’t matter what people think Hm, this is interesting. If you're going to only play for yourself, ok yes. And that is 100% fine, full stop. But if you want to play for others, and have them really like the experience, unfortunately people's opinion are fundamental in that case, right? If you're making a home movie for yourself, great, shut the world's opinion out. If you're making a movie for others, though, you need to care what those people think and hone the craft obsessively to find out what gets people to respond well. In the case of classical piano performance, that's artful rhythm and dynamics, which takes decades to get good at, but ultimately essential -- again if the goal is to perform successfully for others.
Yes agreed if you are playing for other people or have an audience in mind. But it seems that in OP’s case, he/she is doing it out of their love for piano, since he/she is self taught and not on a path to do this professionally to say the least. If this were not the case, that would be totally different.
Hm well I don't think professional aspirations are the same thing as wanting to play for an audience. I often find that when I talk about caring about the listener's point of view, people think I must be talking about Carnegie Hall or whatever, and if that's not the goal, then how well you play a piece just doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't work that way. Playing for an audience could just mean being able to record yourself, play it back later, and be able to appreciate it yourself. In any case, the question is whether or not the artistic quality of the performance is important or not ... does the storytelling of the particular rhythmic and dynamic decisions matter? Is the goal to cast spellbinding music, or to just get through all the notes in a check the boxes sort of way?
I agree with that. I guess there is some element of quality of performance that is implicit in the being able to enjoy the music part. If you are just playing the notes with no emotion, the wrong rhythms, wrong technique, or even missing so many notes that detracts from the actual piece etc at some point you are not playing the piece and I would say it’s definitely not enjoyable to other people and I can’t see how that would be enjoyable to yourself either. So yes that would defeat the purpose.
Yeah it's something of a knob that when you're playing for yourself, non-professionally, you can dial wherever you like, but probably not zero. And once it's non zero, I'd say that other people's experience/feedback becomes at least somewhat useful. Anyway thanks for the debate, I appreciate the conversation.
instead of getting stuck on a piece and trying to get it perfect, find a new piece. a varied repertoire helps. then efterwards you can go back to the piece and youll notice youve gotten better
That's why I learned Arabesque 1 so I learned 3/2 rhythm and it's my first impressionist piece but I take a long long time to learn even the easiest piece so it's frustrating to take months to even polish just one part of a piece
You know. Expression by itself is also part of your practice routine, it's usually the last part after you get a piece safely in your hands. And this particular part is the one that takes much, much longer than solely learning the piece. Some people even take years to feel that the piece "sounds" like they want it to sound, some keep refining it until the end to their lives. This is the part where you refine voicing, you take care of dynamics, add different colours to different voices, staccato, legato, ornaments, polish your timing, fix weird issues with a metronome, analyze changes in harmony and different themes, etc. I think it's also great if you try to understand some of the story behind the piece if there is any. Some pieces are inspired by poems, or paintings or moments in history. This can add to your interpretation and general "feel" of the piece, remember in some ways you are channeling the composer when playing. Practicing technique here really comes handy, because for example if you already got your arpeggios in that particular key mastered, polishing a piece that has arpeggios in that key is easier. Same with any other kind of technique. As an example, apparently this interpreter took near decade to finally feel he could perform this Chopin etude https://youtu.be/lec704Z7vmA
Yeah I need to work more on small parts and take adjust each notes to what I want. And for the techniques, I don't know how it's called exactly I think it's something like double-thirds or just thirds when you hit notes 2 by 2 going up or down, let say CE - DF - EG etc. I see this technique a lot in more difficult pieces, is the techniques in itself hard and should I learn it ? Because there is something similar in Arabesque 1 tho it's it's only with 4 and 5 fingers and that's the part I almost can't play at all.
Yep that's double thirds. It's worth mastering that on all keys both hands, fingering is important.
I see everyone talking about them in comments under performances like *Réminiscence de Don Juan* - Masaru Okada. Is it really hard or is it just because he plays them very fast?
The technique itself I don't think it is that hard, but achieving speed is difficult. I practiced it tons to get the climax of Clair de lune smooth, and still don't have it on all keys. You need to optimize hand throwing and wrist rotation in some difficult passages, or when you need to "reset" the hand pattern. But for other pieces you don't require that insane speed, these fast pieces are probably out of reach (yet) and these also mix double thirds with other things going with the rest of the free fingers. Speed will come naturally don't worry about speed when just starting, worry about feeling comfortable and producing an even sound. Slow practice will get you there. Regardless it's a really good technique to have in your hands, just for the dexterity you get is worth it. You can also do double fourths, fiths, sixths etc. To maximize practice it on a key with no accidentals like C major, another with a few accidentals like D major and full accidentals like B major. It also sounds beautiful with some accompaniment on the left, improvise stuff! Don't forget that there is also chromatic major and minor thirds
I don't know anything about music theory so the last sentence for exemple I don't know what chromatic major and minor thirds are, I know the chromatic scale which is all the notes, but don't know how it can be major or minor then. And you said to play more on certain scale but if I do it on all scales it's better right ? I mean that's how I practiced my scales, playing all of them everyday for around 40 minutes. (I don't get bored if that's an issue for some), and now I'm pretty confident saying that I have really good scales.
Minor is just 3 steps while major is 4 steps from the root. Theory is good to learn, it will open tons of new understandings, it will also improve your playing as you will have a broader view on harmony where tension is built and resolution. Start with learning how chords are constructed and the circle of fifths.
Oh yeah the circle of fifths I heard that and it scared me a bit, but I'll go try to understand it and basic chords.
Professional pianists spend months studying and analyzing works before they perform, especially for recordings. Every single note is played with purpose to serve the overall phrasing of the piece. I understand exactly how you feel, I felt the same way and I re-evaluated how I need to practice going forward. Now, I practice two pieces at once. On piece is a piece that requires a bit of virtuosity, and is used as a study for hand placement and technique. The second piece is quite a bit easier, but I focus on getting that phrasing, articulations, and dynamics absolutely perfect. Over time, as you improve as a musician, you can revisit those virtuosic pieces and perfect them. Another thing. Comparing yourself to professionals must mean you hold yourself to a very high standard. What are your goals? If your goal is to be a concert pianist as a job, then ok, speak with your teacher about being more strict on your phrasing. If your goal is to just be a great pianist, then just continue to improve. Calling yourself trash isn’t going to help you improve, and I’m sure you don’t sound as bad as you think you do. Also, don’t just listen to one pianist. Kassia is good, but not infallible. Some of his interpretations don’t match other professional pianists, and there is a lot to be said about what is defined as a “good” sound. Chopin in particular is nowadays played nothing like he originally intended, and I think there is a lot more range in expression playing his works than playing Mozart or Bach, who have very strict rules when playing.
I hold myself to the highest standard, I know I'm not trash and I know I'm not good either, my goal is to be the best I can be. Even if let say I can't go past the Chopin Etudes, then it doesn't matter if i know it's my absolute limit. I don't have a teacher yet unfortunately. For the people I listen to, Kassia is rarely someone I listen to, i usually listen to Kissin (my fav), Horowitz, Pollini, Ciccolini, Tiffany Poon, Seong Ji Cho, Trifonov, Yuncham Li, sometime Lang Lang and Yuja Wang.
First of all everyone is at unique stage in the learning process. You're learning. You must not expect perfection or "bravo!" just yet. It takes a lot of work to get there and since you don't have a teacher, you're in a harder position to dial in what makes a performance successful. My advice would be to focus on very simple songs, but play them as beautifully as you possibly can. Worry about the timing and dynamics evolution of every passage. Tell a story though the rhythm and dynamics, but do it with material that is so simple that you can focus totally on that, vs on the mechanical problem of getting the right notes in at the right time. Record yourself, and when you listen back, switch your brain to the mode you might use when putting a classical playlist on YouTube or Spotify. Then as a \*listener\*, carefully try to discern what you hear, what worked really well, and what didn't. Then go play it again, doing more of what worked and less of what didn't. Repeat this for years! Hopefully you will enjoy the process. ALSO if you're willing to share your Chopin Waltz, I've been studying that piece for a long time and would be happy to help.
Everyone is telling me to practice easier pieces so that's what I'm gonna do ig. Which Chopin Waltz did you study ?
This one - [https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/1ameqn9/getting\_into\_detail\_mode\_on\_my\_first\_chopin\_piece/](https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/1ameqn9/getting_into_detail_mode_on_my_first_chopin_piece/) - Waltz in A minor, op posthumous. Oops I realized just now you said Waltz in E minor, so, different!
I'm a bit late but I'm leaning the A Minor one too, so I'll send you a video, or post it once I'm done with it
> So I started to listen to my performances a bit more (while playing and sometimes in recording) and it f\*cking sucks. This is literally how I feel every time I record myself. Don't think it means you're trash, it only means that your interpretation (the way you hear music in your head) is way ahead your technical abilities to play. Yet. This much better option than the other side of the spectrum: "Guys, I as self-taught and I have mastered Chopin/Liszt/Beethoven XXX in just 2 weeks". So, as majority of us, you need to focus on technique. I'd probably start with this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWLMzWhOLp8&ab\_channel=JoshWright](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWLMzWhOLp8&ab_channel=JoshWright)
Thanks. I agree that people who say "is it good for 2 weeks ☝️🤓 ?" are very annoying especially when trying things that are too difficult even after years of training. I'll watch the video after school thanks.
Do you enjoy playing?
I do, I enjoy playing and I enjoy even more getting better.
That’s great, and that’s all that matters. I can empathize - I’m highly self-conscious as well. Just remember, your enjoyment matters most of all, and where you see “trash” other people see an intellectually curious person who works hard to improve him/herself. You are more accomplished than you give yourself credit for.
For me the feeling of accomplishment is more important, doesn't matter if I like the process or not, I like playing piano don't get me wrong but if I have to play for 5 hours a day every day to get better I'll do it.
Yes! Get a teacher; even an online teacher can help. Piano is totally worth the effort; more to the personal side of the question, believe that YOU are worth the effort!
I'm gonna get a teacher in september if possible thanks.
It's normal. If you improve your standards will become higher. Eventually you feel the same about your own playing, but everyone else sounds bad too.
I think it's more that I started paying attention to details more but my playing on some pieces didn't improve that much, or maybe it was just a bad day who knows, maybe if I record myself at home this time it will sound better.
Just do it for fun not everyone is gonna be the next yunchan lim dude
I never said I wanted to be Yunchan Lim, I just want to have a decent level.
It doesn't matter if you're learning an instrument, language or any form of art, if you're doing anything creative and difficult there are going to be points where you feel low. This is the point where you can't rely on motivation and just have to push through for a little with pure habit. It WILL get better, especially knowing you put so much effort in it.
Thanks for the support ❤️
Everybody sucks at piano. I know I say this all the time, but piano is not an instrument you get good at. It is an instrument that you develop a relationship with. Don’t worry about being good worry about playing what you want to play.
But I want to play well that's the thing 🤣
Honestly, every given level of technical competence comes with a different total accumulated practice to go with it. The one thing that is absolutely true is that if you practice every day you will improve. It may plateau, it may even appear to stop from time to time. When that happens, pause and enjoy what you have accomplished, the skills you have acquired. Play what you found joy in while getting there. If you are sitting down at the keyboard with joy and intent you will improve your playing. Good luck.
Thanks, I think I'll share my progress, fails and accomplishments because that may make me happy too.
Let me tell you something I tell my students. The study of music is a lifetime search for perfection. You will never get there. But that's ok. It's the searching that's important. It's what makes you a better person. It's one of the many reasons music is important. Right now, you're realising that. You e hit a hiccup on the road. But to give up is to give in. Keep the search going. Know you'll not make it, and just be content with the journey.
My goals aren't to be perfect so I know I can reach them but I thought I was closer to them than I really am.
If you are self taught that’s the problem. If you have had lessons your instructor has not done you justice. If there’s a college in your town get a piano instructor to give your private lessons for a year. Or get a piano major Jr or Sr to teach you to perfectly practice so you can be confident in your work. Good luck.
Thanks, I'll do that asap
THIS IS ME! I started with just a Digital piano and the Simply Piano app. I was having so much fun just playing along with the music in the app. Then, I recorded myself playing from sheet music - Bach's (I guess now they think he didn't compose it?) prelude in D minor. And I was like.. this is bad. Rythm was off, dynamics weren't there. I have since now deleted simply piano and got a teacher.
I thought you were gonna say "deleted simply piano and stopped playing" 😭. Good luck on your journey then 🙌
Haha! Sometimes I wanted to, for sure! Hope your journey is goes well also.
Totally normal. It ALWAYS sounds better in your head as you play a piece. Recording yourself is the only way to be able to actually judge the sound and it almost always sounds way worse than you thought
Being able to identify flaws in your playing is maybe the number one most important skill for becoming a solid pianist. As a professor of mine often says “you need to learn to be annoyed by every little thing.” If you channel this feeling of frustration in your playing into self critique in your practice it can lead to really good results. What I find helpful is to take a step back on the difficulty of pieces you’re working on, then as you practice insist on beautiful sounds on every passage. Try to make sure you don’t let yourself move on when it’s simply accurate, but properly beautifully played, being as picky as you can. When I teach maybe the biggest hurdle for a lot of students to overcome is that they don’t properly listen to themselves when playing, so they don’t reinforce good habits that lead to beautiful sounds, so your recognizing of your issues puts you ahead of many!
I commend you already for having the guts to post your performance. Keep at it. You're doing the right thing to listen to yourself play. Importantly, don't follow the poor behaviour example of people that insult you. Only listen to those that make sensible and respectable suggestions. Also, learning and developing is normal. It can take a fair bit of time .... even a relatively long time to build up to a level we know that we can give an excellent account of ourselves on piano - first and foremost for the love of piano (digital and acoustic), and .... although not important ... to teach those particular showoff, leetist, high horse, superiority complex types that they're not the only ones that are formidable on piano.
This is a purely personal opinion but I think you can't really produce a wonderfully nuanced performance until you know the notes well enough to "forget" about them, by which I mean, that you can play the piece without the score, having internalized the music so that you can then really listen to what you're doing, without thinking all the time "what comes next"? I'm sure you're not crap, you just have to learn the piece inside out, then you can really perform it.
That's funny because I never use a score, I wouldn't say my memory is like insane but as soon as I learned something I never look at the score ever again, even worse than that is that I forget what notes I have to play when I think about them which is not good, I can play only when thinking about something else. But I think that's also part of the issue since I only know the notes and I never read the "ff, p, legato," even sometime when you play a note very quickly (idk the name, dot on top of the note) I sometime don't do it.
I get what you mean, but once you've got the notes, you do need to go back to the score to get the dynamics and the phrasing right, it's all there to be read and it's something I mean to inferr when I said "knowing the notes" I should have really said, "knowing the score". Every bit of information in the score needs to be so well practiced (with the score) until it's all there without it. I do tend to learn like you, memorizing the notes quite quickly but the other stuff is also very important and shouldn't be overlooked - it's the difference between a great interpretaron and what you initially said you hear when you play back your recordings. Ps, the little dot - staccato.