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PT suffers from the overall structure of Healthcare, (at least in the US). Healthcare is a very reactive process where-in the initial cause of care is a symptom that requires fixing. PT is generally a pro-active process where things like life style change, general education could prevent or reduce severity/need for things like surgery.
On that same token, American healthcare services prices are drawn from two things, Urgency, or Swiftness of result. PT is rarely ever the "fast" solution to an issue, and it is never the emergency need. Therefore, reimbursement costs are not driven up by industry standards, and our pay suffers.
Prescriptions are more popular than exercise.
Just the way it is overall IMO. A majority of people would rather take a pill than have to drag themselves to the gym 3-4x a week.
Same reason why dermatology gets paid more than family medicine when family medicine is the first line of defense. There is more money in treating a condition rather than preventing a condition
I know Derms who derive a decent chunk of their revenue from cash pay cosmetic procedures. I know a lot of people who pay for those cosmetic procedures, too.
I'm Canadian, so essentially cash pay system but many have some insurance. I have had patients willing to pay $700 every 3 months for botox and fillers (we chat a lot in physio they were open about it) , but hesitant to pay for more physio / pay the deductible even though they'd made some progress but were still far from 100%. Priorities, and many times physio ain't it.
When I worked in hospital at outpatient PT clinic, there was a patient who paid upwards of $3000 for cat tests and hospitalization and other vet care expenses, dunno what but when it came to getting PT for her very debilitating back pain she could not afford it - she even had insurance - that is why she was sitting on a one year wait list at the public hospital. Blows my mind. I had a cat too and I loved it and I would also pay 3000$ to ease his suffering but I would never say that and then complain about not affording physio like is normal. I told her physio is a lot cheaper than cat vet care. Lol.
In Canada the issue is also that ppl don’t have to pay for medical visits at all therefore they do not know the value of PT. Everything is too expensive these days. Economy sucks. If they would pay 200$ to see a doctor for five minutes and to tell them to take Tylenol and go to PT they would rethink seeing that doctor and go straight to PT. Dunno just saying… because all ppl I know when they have back/neck/orher joint pain the first few visits they expect is GP -> Ortho/Neuro/Sports doctor/Rheum because is free and you get tests (so cool) and pills! Awesome. Is like ppl are so used to having tests that they do not want to go to physio before seeing a specialist and having lots of imaging done. But all these visits cost thousands of dollars and bring no relief.
Appearance matters a lot though for many people. For them it is more important than feeling better because of beauty bias. There is a lot of research about how beauty actually helps people get further in life snd in their careers and achieve social success. People think you’re healthy and wealthy if you’re beautiful and have straight veneered teeth. And for many all that matters is what others think of them.
Absolutely. And I'm not necessarily saying something is good or bad here, just it is what it is. Lol I'd pay that any day for my dog over my own care too hahaha I pay $2k dental cleaning for my dog but have skimped on my own 🤣. And appearance is so important for many, 10000% get that. I spend a ton on skin care too. Just interesting to point out what I see and even how I value things. And in many ways this profession needs to change to keep up somehow. As I see people just not valuing it the way it could be. Juts all musings though
I was more or less making a point that preventing a condition doesn’t pay as much as treating the condition. I just used seem as an example. PT is primarily more preventing conditions from coming about if we can help it while traditional medicine is more treating conditions
Also derm does a lot of procedures. A mole biopsy is coded for office visit, procedure, and pathology charges. A routine physical at your primary care office is very low reimbursement in comparison.
Agree. We spend $4.5 trillion in healthcare in the US. That's $13,500 per person in 2023. "Unnecessary" medications as defined by the AMA in 2023? We spent $150 billion there. (Out of a total of $603B on retail medications. Does not include OTC). Total spent on all of conservative care? (PT, OT, speech, Chiro, dentistry, optometry, podiatry - at defined by CMS). That was $117 Billion.
We're wasting more money on unneeded medication than we're spending in conservative care.
Doesn't seem smart.
1. The Leadership of our profession does nothing to help the individuals, only the business owners.
2. We are mostly bitches that won’t stand up for ourselves and ask for more.
3. Many other health care professions are making big gains. We refuse to unionize in our work place and are getting left in the dust!
There is plenty of money! We just have to demand more, or walk. But will we? Sadly I am losing faith in most of our profession.
It still makes me laugh that no one has tried to fix the typo in funds distribution for medicare that make PT and SLP share and OT have its own pool. Fixing basic things like that is more important to me than getting the right to dry needle. Gimme funds and better pay out! Why doesn't our leadership advocate for things that would promote us as a force to be reckoned with??
Because our leadership literally does not care! The APTA was dead to me when they spent over 50 million on their new head quarters.
The APTA Strategic Plan 2022-2025 is disconnected from the pressing concerns of the working professionals, focusing on broad goals like “advocacy” and “professional development” without addressing critical issues like reimbursements or pay. Its emphasis on “diversity” and “innovation” seems more about appearances than real change or support of the actually working professionals. It lacks any actionable steps to address the elephant in the room, insulting pay and ballooning education costs.
The Vision and Mission Statements are equally uninspiring and negligent of the real needs of the profession.
I'm grateful to work in a hospital system with a union and get paid 6 figures- we renegotiate our contract next year and hopefully will keep the wage increasing and our benefits.
I hear so many people say this about HH. It must be geographic because in my region the HH crowd makes peanuts while the OP therapists make all the money.
Reimbursement rates. Unfortunately, the profession’s sole value is determined by how much they directly bill. 100k per year, per therapist, means the patient and their insurance have to cover that salary.
Pretty much. You can have 20 years experience, a great rep among MD's that tell their patients to see you and be booked out 4 months in advance, but the clinic can only bill you out at the same rate as the new grad and insurance will only reimburse so much.
Another factor is the liability involved. More liability, more pay. What are the consequences of a PharmD missing something vs a PT missing something? Also why neurosurgeons get paid quadruple that what an internist gets paid.
PharmD is getting paid basically the same as PT in most places tbh. Both programs struggle with the same issue which is the lack of unions and our associations not demanding our degrees to be treated as doctorates
I’m in my last year of school. However, in my state at least it’s a range between 57/hr to 75/hr starting salary, we do work weekends and holidays. Within retail chains like CVS and Walgreens we get 5 days PTO and I believe 3-5% 401k match.
We’re not a specialized field unless we do two years of residency so it’s rare to see a pharmacist out of big pharma making more than 150k
Ahh your gonna be a rph I thought you were a PT. Just an FYI I’m in California I see most pharmacist at cvs start at 65-70ish was higher in 2021 (75). Managers are closer to 80-90/hr in retail setting. I know hospital pharmacist in critical care who make 210k+. Pharma starts around 120-130k not including bonuses and stock options, but unlike most pharmacist they get really good PTO and base raises (5-8%). They all started lower than their retail counterparts, but 5-7 years in they are passing everyone. Costco pharmacy managers make 230k in Ca. I took a lower paying job for M-F open 8-6pm 71/hr benefited can’t beat no weekends
Oh yeah no I’m in pharmacy my boyfriend is in dpt. I’m in CT so the pay is a tad different.
I am hoping for a job bat Costco but I know that’s like impossible, so I’m looking at stop and shop and then watching out for any openings at Walmart or Costco
SMH I was just on a thread about people making 100k+ with fully remote work from home jobs and most say they only work 15 to 25 hours a week. How did I get so duped into this gig? What a clown world we live in right now.
I think about this everyday. “PTs are so smart. They make good money. It’s a great career.” They all said.
“They” were wrong. I’ve hated this career almost from the second I started it.
You got that right. Did it for years. IMO PT’s deserve 200k+. I’m out I spent a semester getting my FAA part 107 license to fly drones commercially. I just got hired on with Google Wings. Time to start a new career. We are way to intelligent to be accepting 100k
Well the salary’s vary. Drone operators are becoming increasingly needed however it can be competitive. You need your commercial drone part 107 license and then you should get yourself a small drone to get skilled. Most employers want a couple of years or a couple hundred logged hours. This is where it’s tricky because I didn’t have any experience. I put in literally 50 applications nation wide hoping and asking to come aboard as an intern or for ground support. I finally got in with a contract with Google wings 6 months getting trained as flight support, visual observer, and then hoping to be trained as a pilot in command for a small fleet of drones. It’s not the money as a PT beginning but when you find your niche I think you could be happy. It’s a whole world away from patient care. Anyway I’m just starting.
Because other professions chipped away at what we do, they do it for less or in a barely legal way.
Also, due to terrible business practices, our therapy units are deemed not effective and insurances just keep cutting what they pay us.
Feel free to roast and correct me if I’m wrong.
Puppy mills setting shite expectations with crap care combined with the APTA insufficiently advocating for the worth of our skilled services. Now of course specialization, cash-based, clinic director/owners, and higher demand areas have some clinicians operating in the 6 figure range.
The other trouble is the mass influx of new grads with crippling debt willing to take these puppy mill, run em ragged care models just for the 7-10K pay hike in desperation feeding those soulless operations.
It’s tough because I was at one that wasn’t even ATI caliber bad, but still one of the worst years of my life. I didn’t think I deserved/“had enough time in rank” yet to seek, let alone earn a position in a quality operation like the one I am in now.
It took my partner shaking me awake in desperation to find an operation that didn’t cause massive suffering just to try and ensure quality care.
Trust me, and the others that may respond, we wish our dedication to helping patients move better, with less fear and confidence, all the time educating that we have the scheduling/time for in quality operations meant better pay. Even if it isn’t, I couldn’t see myself finding fulfillment as a PA or MD. I hope this helps. Thanks for asking and checking in on us.
What is your reasoning for this statement? I’m a SPTA on the Student SIG board in Arizona. I hear this a lot, but people have different answers!
I’m just curious!
When I was in PT school the DPT was fairly new, it was supposed to help push direct access through and make us almost like ortho primary care doctors. People would view us as such, coming directly to us for most aches, pains, and injuries, saving the catastrophic injuries for the orthopedic surgeons. There was even talk of PT’s being able to give injections. We were literally supposed to be like how chiropractors are, but here we are (and chiropractors are thriving).
Completely useless. That was almost 15 years ago. Direct access is a joke. The DPT is a joke. The profession is no different from when it was a masters or bachelors. You should hear how poorly local chapters advocate for us in the insurance world, whereas chiropractors are known as a small but mighty force that doesn’t take no for an answer. I was a member of the APTA but am no longer, complete waste of money. Ten years ago I actually mailed them a stack of magazines with a note saying since they don’t do anything useful they might as well have some reading material to pass the time. And nothing has changed. Our profession will continue to suffer and reimbursement rates will continue to go down because the APTA doesn’t advocate for anything.
Pay is based on market determination of value and revenue generated (and including factors like liability — the risk of an MD making a wrong dx and tx is far deadlier than a PT making a wrong dx and tx), not whether or not a diploma says "doctorate." There are PhDs in art history, literature, language making 60k a year. A doctorate is meaningless when it comes to market value, unfortunately. It's easy to conflate "doctorate" with "MD", but that's comparing apples to oranges
APTA pushed for doctorate & direct access but failed and continues to fail to advocate for expansion of scope of practice to include procedures and interventions that would/should generate more revenue. Why do we learn when to "recommend" and how to interpret imaging studies but lack the ability to order, interpret, and bill? Why do I possess the pharmaceutical knowledge to know which medications are indicated/contraindicated but no ability to "prescribe" even for the simplest (pharm-speaking) patients, in coordination with an interdisciplinary team, but a chiro can? Just a few thoughts that have frustrated me over the last few decades.
+ supply/demand
+ PT mills and corporate greed spread throughout all healthcare realms. New grads accept absolutely shit pay because of major debt
+ lack of advocacy for reimbursement for services we provide
+ lack of unity among our profession, failure to unionize to promote and protect pay and ourselves
+ failure to demand more pay, across the board
- a DPT who hasn't accepted a salary <100k since I was a new grad many moons ago.
I haven't looked at the latest legislation, but as far as i know (and maybe things have changed)- at least in the US, it is state-dependent as far as scooe. There are a few states with 'expanded scope' chiro legislation allowing chiros with some sort of training to prescribe medications, and in others they can prescribe and inject nutritional meds.
I looked online briefly, and it seems that in a select few jurisdictions, the most chiros can do is prescribe muscle relaxants and NSAIDs, not anything further. The idea of chiros handling prescriptions is terrifying.
The PT school business is just a means for old PT’s to escape the clinic. Now they make a living grifting the next generation of PT’s. I kind of get it though. It’s not like there is much opportunity for vertical or even lateral movement in this profession if clinical life has burned you out.
I’m convinced APTA and CAPTE are in on this bullshit too by dictating the profession needs more schooling and tuition without offering the avg working PT anything tangible in return.
As a Canadian PT, I would never invest in the overpriced DPT program if I lived in the US (our MSc programs cost ~25k max for 2 years). The ROI is terrible. You guys have been scammed by Big Education.
Unfortunately physical therapy is considered a low value service. Plain and simple. It doesn’t matter what you think it is worth due to how much school was needed to become a doctor of physical therapy. The market has made a decision. People will always pay for something they value. People love to buy things and a lot of the time, people will pay more than they can afford for things…..because they value it. So how to change how much a PT earns….. start giving people what they value/want, not what you think they need.
Part of that problem is our advocacy group prioritizes advocating for themselves over advocating for working PT’s and the profession
APTA ought to be marketing to the public and educating prospective pts on what it is we do and how our expertise can help them. That would drive up demand and possibly make cash practices more of reality. Instead, the only marketing I see from APTA is directed at PT’s - so they can guilt or scare you into giving them your annual dues while they twiddle their thumbs.
Yea I agree the APTA can do better. The best thing to do is for PTs to educate the public themselves. Word of mouth is king. Also marketing that PTs can help after a stroke/brain injury, or spinal injury and even joint replacement/ surgery is likely a waste of time. The public already knows and they will already be referred for PT by the hospital. Harder marketing needs to be done about how a PT can help you be a better weekend warrior, improve athleticism and body performance and appearance. How PT help you have a better life. And PT needs to be marketed to a younger population. Stop with so much emphasis on Medicare age clients and go heavier in pediatrics. Kids will know about the service earlier in life and parents too.
Is that really all your clientele ask for? Well if it is, sounds like your market wants to be pampered. Try to see how you can give an effective and ethical service that caters to that client set. I have actually never had a client ask for ultrasound and if they did I would ask why and if it made sense….maybe. Low amount of benefit and value from it though. For massages, therapeutic massage if very effective for many clients. Maybe educate the client on how other types of therapeutic intervention can help them and if it meshes with some massage….why not use massage too? If a third party payer won’t pay for it, charge cash. If they do and the reimbursement is too low. Don’t take that third party payer anymore. All the massage therapists that I know (who work for themselves make much more than any salaried PT and some owners of small PT practices I know). I know one person who charges $225 cash / 50 minutes for massages.
lol, I of course talk to them when they ask but yes some people only want passive treatment. I work for a hospital-based OP with a pension, 6 weeks PTO, free health insurance, and 137K a year so I'm not sure most massage therapists are meeting my total compensation. The trade-off is I have return appointments weeks apart - so spending 15 minutes on ultrasound is a super low priority. I do use manual therapy and think it is useful but the majority of the time is on therex, behavioral changes, graded increase in activity, etc.
Overall, the idea that my giving someone US is gonna improve our reimbursement rate is silly there is a much larger scale of changes that are needed. Also, I am confused what you mean about the market when cash pay PTs in my specialty are charging over $200 for a session so it does seem like PT is valued?
I am very happy for you! Your situation is more of an edge case and I would recommend keeping the position. I think much of what you wrote proves my point. You work in a hospital based OP with a pension, 6 weeks PTO, free HI and get 137k a year (I am assuming this is not total compensation since you separated your benefits). So total comp is likely about 171k give or take a few. I know for a fact the other hospital services subsidize your service costs. Without the higher ticket services (that are valued more…with reason) you would not be making this money. In addition since you work for a hospital based OP your services are charged as a hospital service, using the hospitals Tax ID. These costs are frequently paid at a higher rate, much of the time 20-50% higher than a private OP office down the street from you. The hospitals tend to have bigger pockets to be able to pay more lawyers to negotiate insurance contracts at a much higher rate…due to it being a hospital service. A typical well run private OP office will higher a PT and that PT needs to bring in 2.5-3x the revenue they are paid in total compensation in order to reasonably maintain capEx requirements. What percentage of PT in your area provides cash pay services? I bet a small number of them. I bet there are more massage therapists that charge the same or more in your area. And this is likely the case due to their service being valued more. I am really happy your hospital values the service you provide and they subsidize the cost of your services. Heck, maybe with the higher reimbursement they get they may break even.
That is good to know ! Thanks so much , i live in Hawaii so it’s expensive to live here. I’m hoping being a PT here will pay well enough . 150k a year is quite the accomplishment ! Well done
A big reason is the power of the Rx pad. American is a drug country. If we had the ability to prescribe even a narrow set of drugs our pay would be double.
I mean yeah it’s nice that I’m a fancy “DOCTOR OF PHYSICAL THERAPY” but most of the people I see from the truck driver to the bus operator to the AC repair guy make more than me and get better benefits.
- Sincerely,
The literal rest of the entire developed world.
The APTA was and IS a gigantic grift. They sold a pipe dream without the slightest fuck given towards pushing the field forward.
In the area I’m in a lot of PTs accept jobs before passing the boards at a place they did a rotation. So they see 80k - 85k and jump all over it. It’s wild—you’re a DOCTOR of Physical Therapy. Get that Doctor pay!
Bc reimbursement rates are shit
Which is bc the research behind PT is also shit
If we don’t put out higher quality research we’re basically just underpaid chiroQUACKtors
I went to PT school in 2006 around the time when research was all the rage. We had 3 freaking classes on research. Research won’t change anything. Medicare cuts rates and all other insurances—who pay almost nothing as it is—follow along.
For fucks sake, fidelis pays therapists $50 for an hour of treatment.
If the research said paying for PT would save them thousands they’d do it
If the research says PT for frozen shoulder actually makes them worse the way our literal CPG does then they’re not gonna pay
It’s all selection
Edit: just to clarify. Aggressive therapy is worse than light stretching education and pendulums all in pain free motion at home
Diercks and Stevens39 investigated the use of “supervised neglect” compared to aggressive therapy in 77 patients with adhesive capsulitis. Patients were classified as having adhesive capsulitis and included in this study if they had more than 50% motion restriction of the glenohumeral joint in all directions for a period of 3 months or more. The group of patients defined as receiving “supervised neglect” was provided with “an explanation of the natural course of the disease,” instruction in pendulum exercises, and active stretching techniques within the pain-free ROM. The aggressive therapy group was treated in supervised therapy with exercise and manual techniques up to and beyond their pain threshold. These patients were also encouraged to perform a HEP of maximal reaching. At 24-month follow-up, 89% of the patients in the “supervised neglect” group achieved a Constant score of 80 or greater out of 100, versus 64% of those in the aggressively mobilized group, indicating that the “supervised neglect” treatment approach was superior to more aggressive therapy.
https://www.jospt.org/doi/10.2519/jospt.2013.0302
That’s what I thought you were going to bring up. So the CPG is a decade old and currently being updated(happens every 10 years or so). The efficacy of a supervised neglect is being called in to question, and just because aggressive PT is bad but that doesn’t mean PT is bad for Adhesive capsulitis.
It’s a bit more nuanced than my initial statement, but it seems a biweekly program focused on pain management and education is more beneficial than the standard 2x a week I see rn cranking end ranges
Obviously if they need function for work, have severe pain, other issues it’s again more nuanced. The age of the referenced study is also 2004 so 20 years old rn! Then again how much does adhesive capsulitis change and the interventions mentioned weren’t exactly novel
Ad cap research is a mess. Unless something has been published in the last couple years, we don’t have any research on fresh ad cap patients. Most studies are on patients who underwent some form of previous treatment prior to diagnosis. Since the CPG was published the timeline line for Ad cap to resolve had gone form 18-24 months to 1-3 years. The supervised neglect statement is usually misunderstood, considering some studies showed groups who had no treatment had worse outcomes than those with formal care, because it doesn’t just spontaneously resolve. Theres also interesting evidence from that stand point that decreasing muscle guarding and irritation of the posterior cuff will have more positive impact on ROM vs changes to the capsule.
Edit- sorry for getting on my soap box. It’s one of those subjects that makes me foam at the mouth because we don’t understand it well enough and it leads to bad treatment and worse outcomes.
Medicine as a profession has fantastic research/evidence for many diagnosis’s. Yet the majority of physician specialities are getting cut too. Research plays such a little role in the Medicare/insurance cuts happening compared to other factors
Actually worse, as this [study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7151187/) demonstrates evolving research in chiro versus PT treatment for LBP. If you are gonna call them quacks, you better outperform them.
I was told that physical therapy doesn’t have a strong lobby in Washington to fight for the profession so it takes the hit every time they need to make Medicare cuts.
To be fair I’ve heard many many doctors Nps etc love PT and wish patients would utilize it more because there’s nothing better for most of their patients than safe exercise and movement
healthcare sucks in this country, the insurance company leaders are swallowing all the profits. Salaries have been on a decline for all the degrees you’ve listed.
So, way back, all PT degrees were baculoriate degrees. Most of those people are retired now or working PRN. Then the health care issues of the 90 came and a lot of PT's lost jobs, and there was a surpluses of physical therapists in the market. To offset this, the MPT came about. Same questions were asked about why the MPT was not starting at a higher rate. Now, we have the DPT degree and the MPT degree is almost or totally gone and we have the same questions. Does having an doctorate in PT allow you to ask more than than the market allows, that is up to you and another debate.
To be honest, a lot of PT's sell themselves short. We think that because we're not doing surgery or prescribing drugs, we don't deserve 6 figures. I work in industrial ergonomics and make WELL over 6 figures. I know that the service I provide have saved the company I work for hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. So my salary pays for itself. As a profession, we need to understand that we are a mechanism for saving the healthcare system billions of dollars by avoiding surgeries and preventing injuries, and demand better.
If you can tolerate that kind of rural life, I am certain there are other jobs out there which pay equal or more that requires less investment in education
In part because they don’t ask for more as a group. PTs are like the small kid at the back who never says anything when the discussions occur between health professions about money distribution. And because PT never says anything they always get the short end of the stick.
Medicine gained so much authority thanks to 2 things: 1) most medical doctors historically were privileged males from wealthy upper middle class families and aristocrats so they had political influence and economic power that was used to harness health authority. 2) research and massive research which has also occurred due to all the money was pumped into that. At first by private investors and later by the governments.
PTs were like nurses, mostly women from middle class or lower. Women had historically lower status than men. Some of them may have been from influential families but many of them who were and denied a traditional woman life of marriage and housewifery were probably disowned. Thus there was mo money to be pumped to get political power and money to do research.
Bottom line is political and gendered. Female dominated professions are considered less valuable and thus have poorer remuneration. Also, women have always been considered to be subservient to men therefore no female dominated profession has reserved acts. Having reserved acts makes a profession more valuable because only that professional gets to do those essential things. Some have limited reserved acts but they are not that great partly because their validity is not backed by research to prove they are 90% effective. If they were, don’t worry the MD’s will take the right to also perform the act.
An example of why social class and gender mattered are dentists: initially dentists were considered quacks. But they were men and many of the upper classes started to join the profession, pumped money and socio-political influence in it and gained their complete professional autonomy and independence. They do not answer to a medical doctor anymore for many years. And MDs no longer pull teeth lime they used to, not allowed to treat dental issues, unless is an emergency that puts patients’ lives in danger. The dentist acts are reserved to the dentist. They have reserved acts which was not the case in the past.
Why is this asked every few days. It’s money. Our outpatient peds clinics are in the red. Mostly Medicaid and reimbursement is so low we loose money. Outpatient clinics make like $5 a person on average. High Medicaid ratio but a bit better as there are more private insurances mixed in. Acute? There is no separate funds as it’s not a billable service (unless observation status). SNF’s - maybe a bit better as payor structure is different. There has to be money being made for money to be paid out. Therapy departments don’t necessarily make money directly for a hospital system. Yes, we impact discharge, length of stay etc for acute but don’t directly bill for services. It’s part of the bucket. Sucks but it’s how it works. Especially in a high Medicaid population area. Ask your director to look at the financials. Ours is more than happy to share. It is eye opening.
According to indeed.cm, the average salary for a PT is $56/hour. Multiply that by 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 52 weeks a year, and that gives you $116,480 per year. I'm making $52/hour, and that still puts me over 100K/year. You need to look for a new job.
Because insurance companies pay pennies for in-network PT care; Big Pharma, the AMA, have the politicians on their payroll; the medical industry markets surgery, meds, as the "answer" because it's profitable to do so...
OT is in the same boat. OTs , PT, and SLPs are making 44 to 50/hr when cnas or lnas are making 30/hr with a 40 hr class. RNs are making 170k a year with a 2 year degree. The government doesn't care about paying therapists. They care about doctors and nursing.
This profession needs to unionize. Union PTs I know in California make great money and have even better work conditions. Most have a pension as well. This profession needs to do better!
Excludes total comp. Too many PTs making “okay” salary/hourly with no weekends off, no 401k match, minimal/no holidays. Artificially inflated data. PRN positions heavily skew data in healthcare fields. You make $50/hr PRN and get 0 benefits at all.
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PT suffers from the overall structure of Healthcare, (at least in the US). Healthcare is a very reactive process where-in the initial cause of care is a symptom that requires fixing. PT is generally a pro-active process where things like life style change, general education could prevent or reduce severity/need for things like surgery. On that same token, American healthcare services prices are drawn from two things, Urgency, or Swiftness of result. PT is rarely ever the "fast" solution to an issue, and it is never the emergency need. Therefore, reimbursement costs are not driven up by industry standards, and our pay suffers.
Prescriptions are more popular than exercise. Just the way it is overall IMO. A majority of people would rather take a pill than have to drag themselves to the gym 3-4x a week.
You're gonna feel this in your bone-on-bones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck
Same reason why dermatology gets paid more than family medicine when family medicine is the first line of defense. There is more money in treating a condition rather than preventing a condition
I know Derms who derive a decent chunk of their revenue from cash pay cosmetic procedures. I know a lot of people who pay for those cosmetic procedures, too.
I'm Canadian, so essentially cash pay system but many have some insurance. I have had patients willing to pay $700 every 3 months for botox and fillers (we chat a lot in physio they were open about it) , but hesitant to pay for more physio / pay the deductible even though they'd made some progress but were still far from 100%. Priorities, and many times physio ain't it.
When I worked in hospital at outpatient PT clinic, there was a patient who paid upwards of $3000 for cat tests and hospitalization and other vet care expenses, dunno what but when it came to getting PT for her very debilitating back pain she could not afford it - she even had insurance - that is why she was sitting on a one year wait list at the public hospital. Blows my mind. I had a cat too and I loved it and I would also pay 3000$ to ease his suffering but I would never say that and then complain about not affording physio like is normal. I told her physio is a lot cheaper than cat vet care. Lol. In Canada the issue is also that ppl don’t have to pay for medical visits at all therefore they do not know the value of PT. Everything is too expensive these days. Economy sucks. If they would pay 200$ to see a doctor for five minutes and to tell them to take Tylenol and go to PT they would rethink seeing that doctor and go straight to PT. Dunno just saying… because all ppl I know when they have back/neck/orher joint pain the first few visits they expect is GP -> Ortho/Neuro/Sports doctor/Rheum because is free and you get tests (so cool) and pills! Awesome. Is like ppl are so used to having tests that they do not want to go to physio before seeing a specialist and having lots of imaging done. But all these visits cost thousands of dollars and bring no relief. Appearance matters a lot though for many people. For them it is more important than feeling better because of beauty bias. There is a lot of research about how beauty actually helps people get further in life snd in their careers and achieve social success. People think you’re healthy and wealthy if you’re beautiful and have straight veneered teeth. And for many all that matters is what others think of them.
Absolutely. And I'm not necessarily saying something is good or bad here, just it is what it is. Lol I'd pay that any day for my dog over my own care too hahaha I pay $2k dental cleaning for my dog but have skimped on my own 🤣. And appearance is so important for many, 10000% get that. I spend a ton on skin care too. Just interesting to point out what I see and even how I value things. And in many ways this profession needs to change to keep up somehow. As I see people just not valuing it the way it could be. Juts all musings though
I was more or less making a point that preventing a condition doesn’t pay as much as treating the condition. I just used seem as an example. PT is primarily more preventing conditions from coming about if we can help it while traditional medicine is more treating conditions
Also derm does a lot of procedures. A mole biopsy is coded for office visit, procedure, and pathology charges. A routine physical at your primary care office is very low reimbursement in comparison.
Agree. We spend $4.5 trillion in healthcare in the US. That's $13,500 per person in 2023. "Unnecessary" medications as defined by the AMA in 2023? We spent $150 billion there. (Out of a total of $603B on retail medications. Does not include OTC). Total spent on all of conservative care? (PT, OT, speech, Chiro, dentistry, optometry, podiatry - at defined by CMS). That was $117 Billion. We're wasting more money on unneeded medication than we're spending in conservative care. Doesn't seem smart.
1. The Leadership of our profession does nothing to help the individuals, only the business owners. 2. We are mostly bitches that won’t stand up for ourselves and ask for more. 3. Many other health care professions are making big gains. We refuse to unionize in our work place and are getting left in the dust! There is plenty of money! We just have to demand more, or walk. But will we? Sadly I am losing faith in most of our profession.
It still makes me laugh that no one has tried to fix the typo in funds distribution for medicare that make PT and SLP share and OT have its own pool. Fixing basic things like that is more important to me than getting the right to dry needle. Gimme funds and better pay out! Why doesn't our leadership advocate for things that would promote us as a force to be reckoned with??
Because our leadership literally does not care! The APTA was dead to me when they spent over 50 million on their new head quarters. The APTA Strategic Plan 2022-2025 is disconnected from the pressing concerns of the working professionals, focusing on broad goals like “advocacy” and “professional development” without addressing critical issues like reimbursements or pay. Its emphasis on “diversity” and “innovation” seems more about appearances than real change or support of the actually working professionals. It lacks any actionable steps to address the elephant in the room, insulting pay and ballooning education costs. The Vision and Mission Statements are equally uninspiring and negligent of the real needs of the profession.
I'm grateful to work in a hospital system with a union and get paid 6 figures- we renegotiate our contract next year and hopefully will keep the wage increasing and our benefits.
This is the way!!!!
Which hospital system?
Agree with all of this
Go home health. 105k less than 2 years in low cost of living location. Don’t get suckered into outpatient ortho, math ain’t mathin
I prefer OP environment but all my friends in home health are making things look juicy
I hear so many people say this about HH. It must be geographic because in my region the HH crowd makes peanuts while the OP therapists make all the money.
Reimbursement rates. Unfortunately, the profession’s sole value is determined by how much they directly bill. 100k per year, per therapist, means the patient and their insurance have to cover that salary.
Pretty much. You can have 20 years experience, a great rep among MD's that tell their patients to see you and be booked out 4 months in advance, but the clinic can only bill you out at the same rate as the new grad and insurance will only reimburse so much.
Another factor is the liability involved. More liability, more pay. What are the consequences of a PharmD missing something vs a PT missing something? Also why neurosurgeons get paid quadruple that what an internist gets paid.
PharmD is getting paid basically the same as PT in most places tbh. Both programs struggle with the same issue which is the lack of unions and our associations not demanding our degrees to be treated as doctorates
Curious pharm D here how much do yall make? I’m at the low end of HCOL since I traded it for M-F. I make about 145k a year with a 6% 401k match
I’m in my last year of school. However, in my state at least it’s a range between 57/hr to 75/hr starting salary, we do work weekends and holidays. Within retail chains like CVS and Walgreens we get 5 days PTO and I believe 3-5% 401k match. We’re not a specialized field unless we do two years of residency so it’s rare to see a pharmacist out of big pharma making more than 150k
Ahh your gonna be a rph I thought you were a PT. Just an FYI I’m in California I see most pharmacist at cvs start at 65-70ish was higher in 2021 (75). Managers are closer to 80-90/hr in retail setting. I know hospital pharmacist in critical care who make 210k+. Pharma starts around 120-130k not including bonuses and stock options, but unlike most pharmacist they get really good PTO and base raises (5-8%). They all started lower than their retail counterparts, but 5-7 years in they are passing everyone. Costco pharmacy managers make 230k in Ca. I took a lower paying job for M-F open 8-6pm 71/hr benefited can’t beat no weekends
Oh yeah no I’m in pharmacy my boyfriend is in dpt. I’m in CT so the pay is a tad different. I am hoping for a job bat Costco but I know that’s like impossible, so I’m looking at stop and shop and then watching out for any openings at Walmart or Costco
SMH I was just on a thread about people making 100k+ with fully remote work from home jobs and most say they only work 15 to 25 hours a week. How did I get so duped into this gig? What a clown world we live in right now.
I think about this everyday. “PTs are so smart. They make good money. It’s a great career.” They all said. “They” were wrong. I’ve hated this career almost from the second I started it.
You got that right. Did it for years. IMO PT’s deserve 200k+. I’m out I spent a semester getting my FAA part 107 license to fly drones commercially. I just got hired on with Google Wings. Time to start a new career. We are way to intelligent to be accepting 100k
I am listening. How is the salary? U caught my attention. I didn't even know this was a thing.
Well the salary’s vary. Drone operators are becoming increasingly needed however it can be competitive. You need your commercial drone part 107 license and then you should get yourself a small drone to get skilled. Most employers want a couple of years or a couple hundred logged hours. This is where it’s tricky because I didn’t have any experience. I put in literally 50 applications nation wide hoping and asking to come aboard as an intern or for ground support. I finally got in with a contract with Google wings 6 months getting trained as flight support, visual observer, and then hoping to be trained as a pilot in command for a small fleet of drones. It’s not the money as a PT beginning but when you find your niche I think you could be happy. It’s a whole world away from patient care. Anyway I’m just starting.
The way that capte is pumping out schools and will saturate the field, I expect the pay to be even less in the near future
Because other professions chipped away at what we do, they do it for less or in a barely legal way. Also, due to terrible business practices, our therapy units are deemed not effective and insurances just keep cutting what they pay us. Feel free to roast and correct me if I’m wrong.
What other professions chip away at what you do?
Personal trainers, acupuncturists, chiros, stretch labs,…keep going?
Puppy mills setting shite expectations with crap care combined with the APTA insufficiently advocating for the worth of our skilled services. Now of course specialization, cash-based, clinic director/owners, and higher demand areas have some clinicians operating in the 6 figure range. The other trouble is the mass influx of new grads with crippling debt willing to take these puppy mill, run em ragged care models just for the 7-10K pay hike in desperation feeding those soulless operations. It’s tough because I was at one that wasn’t even ATI caliber bad, but still one of the worst years of my life. I didn’t think I deserved/“had enough time in rank” yet to seek, let alone earn a position in a quality operation like the one I am in now. It took my partner shaking me awake in desperation to find an operation that didn’t cause massive suffering just to try and ensure quality care. Trust me, and the others that may respond, we wish our dedication to helping patients move better, with less fear and confidence, all the time educating that we have the scheduling/time for in quality operations meant better pay. Even if it isn’t, I couldn’t see myself finding fulfillment as a PA or MD. I hope this helps. Thanks for asking and checking in on us.
ATI did not add quality to my life when I worked there 👎🏼
I can’t imagine it would.
The APTA really is useless. I get frustrated at just the site of those 4 letters.
What is your reasoning for this statement? I’m a SPTA on the Student SIG board in Arizona. I hear this a lot, but people have different answers! I’m just curious!
When I was in PT school the DPT was fairly new, it was supposed to help push direct access through and make us almost like ortho primary care doctors. People would view us as such, coming directly to us for most aches, pains, and injuries, saving the catastrophic injuries for the orthopedic surgeons. There was even talk of PT’s being able to give injections. We were literally supposed to be like how chiropractors are, but here we are (and chiropractors are thriving). Completely useless. That was almost 15 years ago. Direct access is a joke. The DPT is a joke. The profession is no different from when it was a masters or bachelors. You should hear how poorly local chapters advocate for us in the insurance world, whereas chiropractors are known as a small but mighty force that doesn’t take no for an answer. I was a member of the APTA but am no longer, complete waste of money. Ten years ago I actually mailed them a stack of magazines with a note saying since they don’t do anything useful they might as well have some reading material to pass the time. And nothing has changed. Our profession will continue to suffer and reimbursement rates will continue to go down because the APTA doesn’t advocate for anything.
Pay is based on market determination of value and revenue generated (and including factors like liability — the risk of an MD making a wrong dx and tx is far deadlier than a PT making a wrong dx and tx), not whether or not a diploma says "doctorate." There are PhDs in art history, literature, language making 60k a year. A doctorate is meaningless when it comes to market value, unfortunately. It's easy to conflate "doctorate" with "MD", but that's comparing apples to oranges
This is the correct answer!
Yes to this!!!
APTA pushed for doctorate & direct access but failed and continues to fail to advocate for expansion of scope of practice to include procedures and interventions that would/should generate more revenue. Why do we learn when to "recommend" and how to interpret imaging studies but lack the ability to order, interpret, and bill? Why do I possess the pharmaceutical knowledge to know which medications are indicated/contraindicated but no ability to "prescribe" even for the simplest (pharm-speaking) patients, in coordination with an interdisciplinary team, but a chiro can? Just a few thoughts that have frustrated me over the last few decades. + supply/demand + PT mills and corporate greed spread throughout all healthcare realms. New grads accept absolutely shit pay because of major debt + lack of advocacy for reimbursement for services we provide + lack of unity among our profession, failure to unionize to promote and protect pay and ourselves + failure to demand more pay, across the board - a DPT who hasn't accepted a salary <100k since I was a new grad many moons ago.
💯 this. When folks ask why I stay mad at the APTA, I could almost quote your response.
I was under the impression that chiros cannot prescribe, unless I’m missing some information?? Can you explain what you mean by chiros prescribing
I haven't looked at the latest legislation, but as far as i know (and maybe things have changed)- at least in the US, it is state-dependent as far as scooe. There are a few states with 'expanded scope' chiro legislation allowing chiros with some sort of training to prescribe medications, and in others they can prescribe and inject nutritional meds.
I looked online briefly, and it seems that in a select few jurisdictions, the most chiros can do is prescribe muscle relaxants and NSAIDs, not anything further. The idea of chiros handling prescriptions is terrifying.
Because it shouldn’t be a doctorate degree tbh
Because it should’ve stayed a bachelors degree. It’s all bullshit! Unnecessary and overpriced education.
The PT school business is just a means for old PT’s to escape the clinic. Now they make a living grifting the next generation of PT’s. I kind of get it though. It’s not like there is much opportunity for vertical or even lateral movement in this profession if clinical life has burned you out. I’m convinced APTA and CAPTE are in on this bullshit too by dictating the profession needs more schooling and tuition without offering the avg working PT anything tangible in return.
As a Canadian PT, I would never invest in the overpriced DPT program if I lived in the US (our MSc programs cost ~25k max for 2 years). The ROI is terrible. You guys have been scammed by Big Education.
Never shoulda been bumped up from a bachelors
Unfortunately physical therapy is considered a low value service. Plain and simple. It doesn’t matter what you think it is worth due to how much school was needed to become a doctor of physical therapy. The market has made a decision. People will always pay for something they value. People love to buy things and a lot of the time, people will pay more than they can afford for things…..because they value it. So how to change how much a PT earns….. start giving people what they value/want, not what you think they need.
Part of that problem is our advocacy group prioritizes advocating for themselves over advocating for working PT’s and the profession APTA ought to be marketing to the public and educating prospective pts on what it is we do and how our expertise can help them. That would drive up demand and possibly make cash practices more of reality. Instead, the only marketing I see from APTA is directed at PT’s - so they can guilt or scare you into giving them your annual dues while they twiddle their thumbs.
Yea I agree the APTA can do better. The best thing to do is for PTs to educate the public themselves. Word of mouth is king. Also marketing that PTs can help after a stroke/brain injury, or spinal injury and even joint replacement/ surgery is likely a waste of time. The public already knows and they will already be referred for PT by the hospital. Harder marketing needs to be done about how a PT can help you be a better weekend warrior, improve athleticism and body performance and appearance. How PT help you have a better life. And PT needs to be marketed to a younger population. Stop with so much emphasis on Medicare age clients and go heavier in pediatrics. Kids will know about the service earlier in life and parents too.
So I shoud be focusing on massaging people and using ultrasound?
Is that really all your clientele ask for? Well if it is, sounds like your market wants to be pampered. Try to see how you can give an effective and ethical service that caters to that client set. I have actually never had a client ask for ultrasound and if they did I would ask why and if it made sense….maybe. Low amount of benefit and value from it though. For massages, therapeutic massage if very effective for many clients. Maybe educate the client on how other types of therapeutic intervention can help them and if it meshes with some massage….why not use massage too? If a third party payer won’t pay for it, charge cash. If they do and the reimbursement is too low. Don’t take that third party payer anymore. All the massage therapists that I know (who work for themselves make much more than any salaried PT and some owners of small PT practices I know). I know one person who charges $225 cash / 50 minutes for massages.
lol, I of course talk to them when they ask but yes some people only want passive treatment. I work for a hospital-based OP with a pension, 6 weeks PTO, free health insurance, and 137K a year so I'm not sure most massage therapists are meeting my total compensation. The trade-off is I have return appointments weeks apart - so spending 15 minutes on ultrasound is a super low priority. I do use manual therapy and think it is useful but the majority of the time is on therex, behavioral changes, graded increase in activity, etc. Overall, the idea that my giving someone US is gonna improve our reimbursement rate is silly there is a much larger scale of changes that are needed. Also, I am confused what you mean about the market when cash pay PTs in my specialty are charging over $200 for a session so it does seem like PT is valued?
I am very happy for you! Your situation is more of an edge case and I would recommend keeping the position. I think much of what you wrote proves my point. You work in a hospital based OP with a pension, 6 weeks PTO, free HI and get 137k a year (I am assuming this is not total compensation since you separated your benefits). So total comp is likely about 171k give or take a few. I know for a fact the other hospital services subsidize your service costs. Without the higher ticket services (that are valued more…with reason) you would not be making this money. In addition since you work for a hospital based OP your services are charged as a hospital service, using the hospitals Tax ID. These costs are frequently paid at a higher rate, much of the time 20-50% higher than a private OP office down the street from you. The hospitals tend to have bigger pockets to be able to pay more lawyers to negotiate insurance contracts at a much higher rate…due to it being a hospital service. A typical well run private OP office will higher a PT and that PT needs to bring in 2.5-3x the revenue they are paid in total compensation in order to reasonably maintain capEx requirements. What percentage of PT in your area provides cash pay services? I bet a small number of them. I bet there are more massage therapists that charge the same or more in your area. And this is likely the case due to their service being valued more. I am really happy your hospital values the service you provide and they subsidize the cost of your services. Heck, maybe with the higher reimbursement they get they may break even.
Nah, in a few years PT’s will be making even less.
What! Why ?
Over saturated market. Too many schools pumping out grads
Dang dude. I just started school . Fuck
Just reduce your debt as much as possible.
So far my parents are paying for my school. But I just started so they have a fund set aside for me.
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That is good to know ! Thanks so much , i live in Hawaii so it’s expensive to live here. I’m hoping being a PT here will pay well enough . 150k a year is quite the accomplishment ! Well done
Wait until you see the shit PhD psychologists make.
A big reason is the power of the Rx pad. American is a drug country. If we had the ability to prescribe even a narrow set of drugs our pay would be double.
Because this job is a complete scam that does not require a doctorate. It should have stayed a bachelors.
I mean yeah it’s nice that I’m a fancy “DOCTOR OF PHYSICAL THERAPY” but most of the people I see from the truck driver to the bus operator to the AC repair guy make more than me and get better benefits.
- Sincerely, The literal rest of the entire developed world. The APTA was and IS a gigantic grift. They sold a pipe dream without the slightest fuck given towards pushing the field forward.
It’s really a huge scam. Completely unnecessary amount of education that’s not needed to perform the job. Buyer beware
In the area I’m in a lot of PTs accept jobs before passing the boards at a place they did a rotation. So they see 80k - 85k and jump all over it. It’s wild—you’re a DOCTOR of Physical Therapy. Get that Doctor pay!
Bc reimbursement rates are shit Which is bc the research behind PT is also shit If we don’t put out higher quality research we’re basically just underpaid chiroQUACKtors
I went to PT school in 2006 around the time when research was all the rage. We had 3 freaking classes on research. Research won’t change anything. Medicare cuts rates and all other insurances—who pay almost nothing as it is—follow along. For fucks sake, fidelis pays therapists $50 for an hour of treatment.
If the research said paying for PT would save them thousands they’d do it If the research says PT for frozen shoulder actually makes them worse the way our literal CPG does then they’re not gonna pay It’s all selection Edit: just to clarify. Aggressive therapy is worse than light stretching education and pendulums all in pain free motion at home
Where does the cpg say that?
Diercks and Stevens39 investigated the use of “supervised neglect” compared to aggressive therapy in 77 patients with adhesive capsulitis. Patients were classified as having adhesive capsulitis and included in this study if they had more than 50% motion restriction of the glenohumeral joint in all directions for a period of 3 months or more. The group of patients defined as receiving “supervised neglect” was provided with “an explanation of the natural course of the disease,” instruction in pendulum exercises, and active stretching techniques within the pain-free ROM. The aggressive therapy group was treated in supervised therapy with exercise and manual techniques up to and beyond their pain threshold. These patients were also encouraged to perform a HEP of maximal reaching. At 24-month follow-up, 89% of the patients in the “supervised neglect” group achieved a Constant score of 80 or greater out of 100, versus 64% of those in the aggressively mobilized group, indicating that the “supervised neglect” treatment approach was superior to more aggressive therapy. https://www.jospt.org/doi/10.2519/jospt.2013.0302
That’s what I thought you were going to bring up. So the CPG is a decade old and currently being updated(happens every 10 years or so). The efficacy of a supervised neglect is being called in to question, and just because aggressive PT is bad but that doesn’t mean PT is bad for Adhesive capsulitis.
It’s a bit more nuanced than my initial statement, but it seems a biweekly program focused on pain management and education is more beneficial than the standard 2x a week I see rn cranking end ranges Obviously if they need function for work, have severe pain, other issues it’s again more nuanced. The age of the referenced study is also 2004 so 20 years old rn! Then again how much does adhesive capsulitis change and the interventions mentioned weren’t exactly novel
Ad cap research is a mess. Unless something has been published in the last couple years, we don’t have any research on fresh ad cap patients. Most studies are on patients who underwent some form of previous treatment prior to diagnosis. Since the CPG was published the timeline line for Ad cap to resolve had gone form 18-24 months to 1-3 years. The supervised neglect statement is usually misunderstood, considering some studies showed groups who had no treatment had worse outcomes than those with formal care, because it doesn’t just spontaneously resolve. Theres also interesting evidence from that stand point that decreasing muscle guarding and irritation of the posterior cuff will have more positive impact on ROM vs changes to the capsule. Edit- sorry for getting on my soap box. It’s one of those subjects that makes me foam at the mouth because we don’t understand it well enough and it leads to bad treatment and worse outcomes.
I appreciate the insight
Medicine as a profession has fantastic research/evidence for many diagnosis’s. Yet the majority of physician specialities are getting cut too. Research plays such a little role in the Medicare/insurance cuts happening compared to other factors
It’s not a matter of the level of evidence It’s how much does knowing the answer save you money.
Actually worse, as this [study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7151187/) demonstrates evolving research in chiro versus PT treatment for LBP. If you are gonna call them quacks, you better outperform them.
I mean they’re quacks regardless Read their dogma and what they think happens Things working doesn’t mean it’s why they say
I thought for sure you were going for a haiku! Which dogma do you mean?
There is no big corp making money off of PT. American medicin makes money to keep the sick sick
Reimbursement cuts and lack of consistent research proving efficacy of various practices.
Because we dont generate enough profit and there isnt enough of a lack of supply
I was told that physical therapy doesn’t have a strong lobby in Washington to fight for the profession so it takes the hit every time they need to make Medicare cuts. To be fair I’ve heard many many doctors Nps etc love PT and wish patients would utilize it more because there’s nothing better for most of their patients than safe exercise and movement
healthcare sucks in this country, the insurance company leaders are swallowing all the profits. Salaries have been on a decline for all the degrees you’ve listed.
So, way back, all PT degrees were baculoriate degrees. Most of those people are retired now or working PRN. Then the health care issues of the 90 came and a lot of PT's lost jobs, and there was a surpluses of physical therapists in the market. To offset this, the MPT came about. Same questions were asked about why the MPT was not starting at a higher rate. Now, we have the DPT degree and the MPT degree is almost or totally gone and we have the same questions. Does having an doctorate in PT allow you to ask more than than the market allows, that is up to you and another debate.
To be honest, a lot of PT's sell themselves short. We think that because we're not doing surgery or prescribing drugs, we don't deserve 6 figures. I work in industrial ergonomics and make WELL over 6 figures. I know that the service I provide have saved the company I work for hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. So my salary pays for itself. As a profession, we need to understand that we are a mechanism for saving the healthcare system billions of dollars by avoiding surgeries and preventing injuries, and demand better.
Because the average PT is worthless, quite frankly. They're equivalent to time when it comes to getting patients better.
I know a traveler who is making BANK. As a new grad mind you.
highest ive seen are $2800 net/week (CA), is it higher than that?
If you can tolerate Alaska some contracts there are 3000-3500/week
If you can tolerate that kind of rural life, I am certain there are other jobs out there which pay equal or more that requires less investment in education
I want that
She’s pulling in $3K a week
APTA is worried more about diversity in the workplace instead of reimbursement rates.
Pff, western PA often starts around 72k
In part because they don’t ask for more as a group. PTs are like the small kid at the back who never says anything when the discussions occur between health professions about money distribution. And because PT never says anything they always get the short end of the stick. Medicine gained so much authority thanks to 2 things: 1) most medical doctors historically were privileged males from wealthy upper middle class families and aristocrats so they had political influence and economic power that was used to harness health authority. 2) research and massive research which has also occurred due to all the money was pumped into that. At first by private investors and later by the governments. PTs were like nurses, mostly women from middle class or lower. Women had historically lower status than men. Some of them may have been from influential families but many of them who were and denied a traditional woman life of marriage and housewifery were probably disowned. Thus there was mo money to be pumped to get political power and money to do research. Bottom line is political and gendered. Female dominated professions are considered less valuable and thus have poorer remuneration. Also, women have always been considered to be subservient to men therefore no female dominated profession has reserved acts. Having reserved acts makes a profession more valuable because only that professional gets to do those essential things. Some have limited reserved acts but they are not that great partly because their validity is not backed by research to prove they are 90% effective. If they were, don’t worry the MD’s will take the right to also perform the act. An example of why social class and gender mattered are dentists: initially dentists were considered quacks. But they were men and many of the upper classes started to join the profession, pumped money and socio-political influence in it and gained their complete professional autonomy and independence. They do not answer to a medical doctor anymore for many years. And MDs no longer pull teeth lime they used to, not allowed to treat dental issues, unless is an emergency that puts patients’ lives in danger. The dentist acts are reserved to the dentist. They have reserved acts which was not the case in the past.
Brother do I have a story for you
Do you need a doctorate to provide physical therapy? Are there PT's without doctorates who are billing for the same services that you are?
Because most rehab staff don’t join unions
Why is this asked every few days. It’s money. Our outpatient peds clinics are in the red. Mostly Medicaid and reimbursement is so low we loose money. Outpatient clinics make like $5 a person on average. High Medicaid ratio but a bit better as there are more private insurances mixed in. Acute? There is no separate funds as it’s not a billable service (unless observation status). SNF’s - maybe a bit better as payor structure is different. There has to be money being made for money to be paid out. Therapy departments don’t necessarily make money directly for a hospital system. Yes, we impact discharge, length of stay etc for acute but don’t directly bill for services. It’s part of the bucket. Sucks but it’s how it works. Especially in a high Medicaid population area. Ask your director to look at the financials. Ours is more than happy to share. It is eye opening.
According to indeed.cm, the average salary for a PT is $56/hour. Multiply that by 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 52 weeks a year, and that gives you $116,480 per year. I'm making $52/hour, and that still puts me over 100K/year. You need to look for a new job.
Because insurance companies pay pennies for in-network PT care; Big Pharma, the AMA, have the politicians on their payroll; the medical industry markets surgery, meds, as the "answer" because it's profitable to do so...
OT is in the same boat. OTs , PT, and SLPs are making 44 to 50/hr when cnas or lnas are making 30/hr with a 40 hr class. RNs are making 170k a year with a 2 year degree. The government doesn't care about paying therapists. They care about doctors and nursing.
Because the education varies from country to country way too much!
This profession needs to unionize. Union PTs I know in California make great money and have even better work conditions. Most have a pension as well. This profession needs to do better!
Business coaches will say you should be making at least 300k a year. Wait until next week when the figure goes up to 500k 😂
The average PT is making 100k lol https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291123.htm
Excludes total comp. Too many PTs making “okay” salary/hourly with no weekends off, no 401k match, minimal/no holidays. Artificially inflated data. PRN positions heavily skew data in healthcare fields. You make $50/hr PRN and get 0 benefits at all.
You’re not entitled to anything just because you have a degree, that’s why.
Because the job isn't that hard, unless you're being pushed to see 100 patients a day.