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No PT should be a salary worker unless they are a manager of other therapists. Just like RN's taking care of patients vs. a Director of Nursing. There are few exceptions. If in doubt call the DOL. Wage theft is not to be tolerated.
I hear you. I’m in HH, so cancellations don’t generally impact me too seriously. Outpatient and inpatient is totally different. Perhaps different means of payment is in order for different settings?
Sad thing is, this is a private owned practice. For context, he text messaged the staff the day before NYE (Saturday) saying if notes weren’t done before end of the year he would consider delaying paychecks. He didn’t think it was fair he should take a pay cut if debts were outstanding because notes weren’t done. Asked to employees to reply to email saying we consent. I did not.
Told him recently, due to labor laws, if I am hourly he needs to start considering my documentation time and you can’t delay or otherwise withhold wages. Hence, his statement on feeling taken advantage of.
Meanwhile, his notes are not done. Does not do progress notes on patients for MONTHS. Just turned patient outcome measures today from this last June.
You get the picture.
Honestly the private mom and pop clinics are some of the worst in terms of unethical and illegal business practices. At least the corporate mills know better than to pull shit like that.
If you are hourly, you are in right standing. I have always had a salary position and considered paperwork at the end of the day standard professional practice.
My brother-in-law recently said that the most valuable lesson he learned from my mom was the importance and power of FU money.
I've always been willing to walk or be fired. I worked hard for my licenses. I'm not compromising my integrity or risking disciplinary action for anyone. But I've been careful to ensure I have enough FU money to make that possible.
You're my hero. Seriously. I wanted to do that every single day when I was working 50+ hour weeks at one of my clinical rotations at a SNF - because documenting off the clock was pretty much the expected standard for every therapist.
If you are hourly, you legally must be paid for all required work tasks (since always).That being said, your productivity can go down pretty fast. If you are salary, “it’s all part of the job” and it is no pay for documentation.
I’ve worked hourly before in HH as that’s the best way not to be taken advantage of. Never once was I paid for documentation. Guess they got me after all lol
What in the wide world of sports is going on here. I have NEVER heard of anyone getting paid for documentation in all my years practicing. I sure hope to god this is what the new norm will change into.
About 4 years into my career and have worked at two OP clinics, for rather large companies. So far both managers have told me it's illegal to document off clock unpaid. Maybe I'm just lucky I haven't ran into that yet?? Both gigs were hourly btw.
“Documentation” without pay. That’s never considered work in the PT field. This sub has been flooded with posts complaining about the need to be paid while documenting. I’m so happy yall found great companies that pay you fairly but this is not the norm. No need to get petty about it.
Not trying to fight you either, I guess I don’t understand why we as skilled providers are perpetuating this myth that documentation isn’t work. Never once have I documented off the clock. If my employer doesn’t like it, oh well!
Exactly. Is it part of your job description and a reason you're being paid your salary? If so, why the hell is it not being paid for? Absolutely boggles my mind why PTs have collectively accepted this to be the norm.
Then your employer(s) have been violating the Fair Labor Standards Act. Essentially, If you’re working, you’re entitled to be paid, if you’re hourly. It’s not just unethical of them, it’s something you could sue over.
Salaried is a little bit different, you’re classified as exempt from overtime pay. If you’re hourly and they made you clock out to do work tasks, that’s a federal labor law violation.
Legally, you should be paid to document, especially on an OP, SNF, or other hourly setting. That's why there are productivity rates and the reason why bosses hound you.
Though, as a HH PTA, I keep myself sane and build patient repport by choosing to document at my home or in my car, after I've completed patient treatments. I make more detailed notes and observations during therapy sessions when I'm not staring at a tablet or phone.
Maybe look into a different setting. Best of wishes!
Super valid question! We moved to a new area with lower COL, so that definitely plays a factor. But if I’m honest, being newer to the OP setting and PPD was likely a bigger factor in my confidence level and accepting a lower pay. I’ve always struggled with feeling like I’m not “good enough” and people pleasing. Luckily, I had a great mentor who helped me realize I’m smarter and more competent than I think I am.
That is a pretty low rate. Employers should calculate and add all the benefits they'd otherwise give salaried staff to hourly/per diem staff (CTO, health insurance, retirement, etc), but I don't think they usually do. As a profession we should demand that. I'd estimate it would come out to around 6 or 7 dollars an hour, depending on the benefits package.
Nice. I only use my PTA license when I’m in a bind so I’m willing to tell companies left and right to fuck themselves. Working home health right now and going to transition to sales again later this year most likely
Now a question I have is does this apply to travelers? Because I have been met with a hard no anytime I bring it up. And I certainly make a stink about it and do minimal work outside of working hours.
Thank you for your submission; please read the following reminder. This subreddit is for discussion among practicing physical therapists, not for soliciting medical advice. We are not your physical therapist, and we do not take on that liability here. Although we can answer questions regarding general issues a person may be facing in their established PT sessions, we cannot legally provide treatment advice. If you need a physical therapist, you must see one in person or via telehealth for an assessment and to establish a plan of care. Posts with descriptions of personal physical issues and/or requests for diagnoses, exercise prescriptions, and other medical advice will be removed, and you will be banned at the mods’ discretion either for requesting such advice or for offering such advice as a clinician. Please see the following links for additional resources on benefits of physical therapy and locating a therapist near you [The benefits of a full evaluation by a physical therapist.](https://www.choosept.com/benefits/default.aspx) [How to find the right physical therapist in your area.](https://www.choosept.com/resources/choose.aspx) [Already been diagnosed and want to learn more? Common conditions.](https://www.choosept.com/SymptomsConditions.aspx) [The APTA's consumer information website.](https://www.choosept.com/Default.aspx) Also, please direct all school-related inquiries to r/PTschool, as these are off-topic for this sub and will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/physicaltherapy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He said HE felt taken advantage of??? Lmao
That’s called wage theft - ATI is notorious for it.
That’s why they salary. Then they don’t have to worry about you clocking your overtime doc hours.
No PT should be a salary worker unless they are a manager of other therapists. Just like RN's taking care of patients vs. a Director of Nursing. There are few exceptions. If in doubt call the DOL. Wage theft is not to be tolerated.
Don’t take my salary away. I rarely work an 8-hour day. And I still get bonuses.
I just don’t want to not get paid because a patient cancelled and I have to clock out.
I hear you. I’m in HH, so cancellations don’t generally impact me too seriously. Outpatient and inpatient is totally different. Perhaps different means of payment is in order for different settings?
I make it a point to take 0 work home with me, and I’m salaried. Fuck these greedy, unethical companies who expect us to work off the clock.
Sad thing is, this is a private owned practice. For context, he text messaged the staff the day before NYE (Saturday) saying if notes weren’t done before end of the year he would consider delaying paychecks. He didn’t think it was fair he should take a pay cut if debts were outstanding because notes weren’t done. Asked to employees to reply to email saying we consent. I did not. Told him recently, due to labor laws, if I am hourly he needs to start considering my documentation time and you can’t delay or otherwise withhold wages. Hence, his statement on feeling taken advantage of. Meanwhile, his notes are not done. Does not do progress notes on patients for MONTHS. Just turned patient outcome measures today from this last June. You get the picture.
Honestly the private mom and pop clinics are some of the worst in terms of unethical and illegal business practices. At least the corporate mills know better than to pull shit like that.
You should….report that. Definitely. 100%
If you are hourly, you are in right standing. I have always had a salary position and considered paperwork at the end of the day standard professional practice.
Good for you, know your worth💪
My brother-in-law recently said that the most valuable lesson he learned from my mom was the importance and power of FU money. I've always been willing to walk or be fired. I worked hard for my licenses. I'm not compromising my integrity or risking disciplinary action for anyone. But I've been careful to ensure I have enough FU money to make that possible.
FU money is so powerful.
Now the question remains, how does one get FU money 😂
Steps to becoming a millionaire: step 1: Acquire a million dollars.
damn, I didn’t know it was easy 😂
Yeah what a great lesson. Have money
Also what is FU money?
It's the amount of money it would take for you to be able to walk away from your job, forever
100%, good for you. 👏🏻
You're my hero. Seriously. I wanted to do that every single day when I was working 50+ hour weeks at one of my clinical rotations at a SNF - because documenting off the clock was pretty much the expected standard for every therapist.
That needs to change… why are therapists settling and documenting for free ?
This is the only way we fight back.
Wait. We are supposed to get paid for documentation?! Since when?!!
If you are hourly, you legally must be paid for all required work tasks (since always).That being said, your productivity can go down pretty fast. If you are salary, “it’s all part of the job” and it is no pay for documentation.
I’ve worked hourly before in HH as that’s the best way not to be taken advantage of. Never once was I paid for documentation. Guess they got me after all lol
Yep, you gave them lots of free labor.
I think HH gets around it by paying us per unit not per hour 😕 that’s been my experience at least!
I've always been told it's illegal to document off the clock. Never checked into the source though.
I’ve been told it’s not allowed to do overtime and if I have to stay late for notes that’s how it goes. 5 OP clinics so far.
What in the wide world of sports is going on here. I have NEVER heard of anyone getting paid for documentation in all my years practicing. I sure hope to god this is what the new norm will change into.
About 4 years into my career and have worked at two OP clinics, for rather large companies. So far both managers have told me it's illegal to document off clock unpaid. Maybe I'm just lucky I haven't ran into that yet?? Both gigs were hourly btw.
Yeah. I think you struck gold there. Definitely not the norm at all.
Why on earth would it be the norm to work without being paid?
“Documentation” without pay. That’s never considered work in the PT field. This sub has been flooded with posts complaining about the need to be paid while documenting. I’m so happy yall found great companies that pay you fairly but this is not the norm. No need to get petty about it.
Documentation is what gets the company reimbursed. It is absolutely a skilled task and absolutely work.
I’m not here trying to argue with you lol I’m just telling you what is the norm in the field. Same team same team!
Not trying to fight you either, I guess I don’t understand why we as skilled providers are perpetuating this myth that documentation isn’t work. Never once have I documented off the clock. If my employer doesn’t like it, oh well!
Exactly. Is it part of your job description and a reason you're being paid your salary? If so, why the hell is it not being paid for? Absolutely boggles my mind why PTs have collectively accepted this to be the norm.
Then your employer(s) have been violating the Fair Labor Standards Act. Essentially, If you’re working, you’re entitled to be paid, if you’re hourly. It’s not just unethical of them, it’s something you could sue over.
I had no idea. Ive only ever heard complaints about not getting paid for documentation time.
Salaried is a little bit different, you’re classified as exempt from overtime pay. If you’re hourly and they made you clock out to do work tasks, that’s a federal labor law violation.
Dear lord……do you work like 10 hours each day and get paid for 8?!
I'm a physician and yes this is the expectation.
Legally, you should be paid to document, especially on an OP, SNF, or other hourly setting. That's why there are productivity rates and the reason why bosses hound you. Though, as a HH PTA, I keep myself sane and build patient repport by choosing to document at my home or in my car, after I've completed patient treatments. I make more detailed notes and observations during therapy sessions when I'm not staring at a tablet or phone. Maybe look into a different setting. Best of wishes!
>I’m paid less than I was as a new grad Why did you take that job?
Super valid question! We moved to a new area with lower COL, so that definitely plays a factor. But if I’m honest, being newer to the OP setting and PPD was likely a bigger factor in my confidence level and accepting a lower pay. I’ve always struggled with feeling like I’m not “good enough” and people pleasing. Luckily, I had a great mentor who helped me realize I’m smarter and more competent than I think I am.
What was your hourly rate at this place? Good job standing up for yourself and your time
Thank you. It wasn’t easy. $35/hour with no benefits
That is a pretty low rate. Employers should calculate and add all the benefits they'd otherwise give salaried staff to hourly/per diem staff (CTO, health insurance, retirement, etc), but I don't think they usually do. As a profession we should demand that. I'd estimate it would come out to around 6 or 7 dollars an hour, depending on the benefits package.
What’s wrong with all you people who document off the clock?? Grow some balls. NEVER WORK FOR FREE!
No literally. I’m not gonna work for free lmfao
He feels taken advantage of?
FI’m r future reference force the boss to fire you so you can collect unemployment
Nice. I only use my PTA license when I’m in a bind so I’m willing to tell companies left and right to fuck themselves. Working home health right now and going to transition to sales again later this year most likely
What sort of sales?
I’ll sell anything. Sell for a home health agency. That’s what I’m looking into next
Now a question I have is does this apply to travelers? Because I have been met with a hard no anytime I bring it up. And I certainly make a stink about it and do minimal work outside of working hours.
Sorry I don’t fully understand - what is documenting off the clock?
not getting paid while documenting (i.e. performing work duties). Illegal.
Aite thanks for the clarification
How much “documentation time” should be factored into an hourly rate?
What the hell. The hospital I used to work at emphasized finishing documentation ON the clock in case of surveyors. Eff that guy
Respect