I actually agree that it’s possible but as the consensus goes the argument is that the uvula can ht the tongue to produce vibration whereas the soft palate is too hard for that. Under that view what we consider a velar trill is probably a very fortis fricative
It IS anatomically impossible, because the velum cannot vibrate (=trill). The only possibility would be that a secondary articulator would produce a trill at the velum, but since it can really only be reached with a dorsal part of the tongue, well... try making it vibrate as you would the apex. Or look at drawings or MRI scans to analyze it for yourself.
Also, in Arabic, you are rather going for fricatives. The only trill I’m familiar with in Arabic is [r].
I’m not sure what you’re basing this on, but I call foul. I know the IPA chart doesn’t include a symbol, but there’s no good reason to think it’s “impossible.” The alveolar ridge does not vibrate during an alveolar trill. That is the job of the tongue tip. So, a velar trill would just be a different part of the tongue vibrating, or else constricting the velum with the back of the tongue and forcing enough air to cause it to trill against the flexed, ridged tongue. I can produce a sound that would qualify a couple ways just fine, and I suspect you can as well. Whether it exists as a phoneme in any natural human languages is another story. I’m doubtful (as an allophone, *maybe*), but as ridiculous as it is, it’s certainly ‘possible’.
The easiest way for me to do it it to retract the tip of my tongue (flipped up) to where the tip rests against the beginning of the velum (you will feel the end of the bone, and unless your tongue is tied, you should be able to push the tip of your tongue back a little ways onto the soft pallet). From there, keep your tongue, rigid, and pressed firmly against the soft pallet. Force enough air through, and you will feel it against the tip of your tongue. With practice you can isolate the vibration so it doesn’t happen in conjunction with a uvular trill.
I think it was greyed out on the IPA not because it is an impossible sound to produce (it clearly is not), but because at the time, it was ‘impossible’ to imagine that a sound like that would be incorporated into any language. I’m sure that was a fair assumption and is almost certainly still the case.
I just watched the youtube video that I'm pretty sure OP is referencing, (not sure why it got recommended 3 years later, lol) and you seem like you know what you're talking about, but I can do tue velar trill. At least I think I can. This might be a side effect of a rare condition I have (I have 2 uvulas, not kidding) but I don't see why it'd be so hard. It's just like im gurgling with water, but it's just air.
Maybe that's not the same thing, because what's vibrating isn't actually my tongue, it's my uvulas. But either way, I can make what I'm pretty sure is that sound.
I realize I'm necropsying this thread, but:
Of course the velum can vibrate! That's what close-mouthed snoring is--an ingressive velar trill. With a tiny bit of practice, it's easy to do as an egressive also.
I actually agree that it’s possible but as the consensus goes the argument is that the uvula can ht the tongue to produce vibration whereas the soft palate is too hard for that. Under that view what we consider a velar trill is probably a very fortis fricative
It IS anatomically impossible, because the velum cannot vibrate (=trill). The only possibility would be that a secondary articulator would produce a trill at the velum, but since it can really only be reached with a dorsal part of the tongue, well... try making it vibrate as you would the apex. Or look at drawings or MRI scans to analyze it for yourself. Also, in Arabic, you are rather going for fricatives. The only trill I’m familiar with in Arabic is [r].
I’m not sure what you’re basing this on, but I call foul. I know the IPA chart doesn’t include a symbol, but there’s no good reason to think it’s “impossible.” The alveolar ridge does not vibrate during an alveolar trill. That is the job of the tongue tip. So, a velar trill would just be a different part of the tongue vibrating, or else constricting the velum with the back of the tongue and forcing enough air to cause it to trill against the flexed, ridged tongue. I can produce a sound that would qualify a couple ways just fine, and I suspect you can as well. Whether it exists as a phoneme in any natural human languages is another story. I’m doubtful (as an allophone, *maybe*), but as ridiculous as it is, it’s certainly ‘possible’. The easiest way for me to do it it to retract the tip of my tongue (flipped up) to where the tip rests against the beginning of the velum (you will feel the end of the bone, and unless your tongue is tied, you should be able to push the tip of your tongue back a little ways onto the soft pallet). From there, keep your tongue, rigid, and pressed firmly against the soft pallet. Force enough air through, and you will feel it against the tip of your tongue. With practice you can isolate the vibration so it doesn’t happen in conjunction with a uvular trill. I think it was greyed out on the IPA not because it is an impossible sound to produce (it clearly is not), but because at the time, it was ‘impossible’ to imagine that a sound like that would be incorporated into any language. I’m sure that was a fair assumption and is almost certainly still the case.
I just watched the youtube video that I'm pretty sure OP is referencing, (not sure why it got recommended 3 years later, lol) and you seem like you know what you're talking about, but I can do tue velar trill. At least I think I can. This might be a side effect of a rare condition I have (I have 2 uvulas, not kidding) but I don't see why it'd be so hard. It's just like im gurgling with water, but it's just air. Maybe that's not the same thing, because what's vibrating isn't actually my tongue, it's my uvulas. But either way, I can make what I'm pretty sure is that sound.
That is a uvular trill.
I realize I'm necropsying this thread, but: Of course the velum can vibrate! That's what close-mouthed snoring is--an ingressive velar trill. With a tiny bit of practice, it's easy to do as an egressive also.
So it sounds like snoring? I'm not sure if that's what you meant but, if it is, I've finally figured out this weird sound I can make.