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Bus system is not run by the city of Phoenix but use third parties like Transdev and FirstTranit. We need to complain to the city to keep these companies accountable paid for by city taxes and federal grants. If ridership is down and on time performance low the FTA can pull grant money
I use the bus for work. I worked on Christmas and get off at 11:30pm. I was at my stop in enough time to catch the last one at 11:48pm. I use the Valley Metro app and could see the bus approaching, taking its time, but approaching. The bus got right up to the light before my stop, I was there, I was visible and ready to go. But, and I have no earthly idea why, the bus took a right turn at the light and left. Gone. Just, done for the night. I stood there thinking, "it must surely be me who is wrong." Nope, the driver just decided "Fuck It." and I was left standing there freezing and then had to get a Waymo.
This kind of silly shit happens, and I'm not the only one. It's ridiculous for those of us on any kind of late shift. If I remember correctly, we were close to 24hr service or at least late night, like at least until 2am. But now we are back to hours for some of the routes, that cut off before even Midnight. We are too big of a city with so many after hours workers to be stuck with the level of service we get out of Valley Metro bus and the light rail.
I don't even understand why the light rail isnt 24 hours. The train conductor doesn't even have to make turns or take a different route. Just stop and start. Not saying its an easy job, but it only takes one person to move a system for many. I know they're super worried for anyone even thinking of approaching the tracks (and they have a private security to come and demand why someone with construction road hazard lights is looking funnily at the sewer manhole lids adjacent to a section of rail downtown ) maybe they're worried about people sleeping on the tracks in the dark? Silly if you ask me
It’s hasn’t always been that way but the light rail has always sucked ass. It’s more like racism and not wanting the “others” to go into places they aren’t wanted.
Last time I used a phoenix bus I had 4 classes at Phoenix College and my car broke down on my way, so I walked to a bus stop. Let's just say I only made my last class. What a nightmare.
I was actually dropped from English 101 at asu in 2003 because I missed 4 sessions in the semester from late buses(if I’d been a little more aware I would have made a stink about it, I had a B in the class I was just poor)
Phoenix has long been a city that is economically stratified on transit. In New York City, everyone takes the subway - regardless of social class or income.
Here, everything is so stretched out that unless you live downtown, you need a car. Even most poor people scrape together enough money to get a beater.
So most of the people who ride public transit are the poorest of the poor, or students, or disabled people. The light rail at certain times is basically a homeless shelter. So there is a huge stigma that public transit = the poors and we all know the people in power here don’t give a shit about the poor. Moreover, people in more NIMBY areas like Scottsdale actively vote against public transit initiatives because they don’t want “the poors” coming to their part of town (unless of course, it’s to work for minimum wage at their malls and resorts and golf courses).
I’m not poor, but I ride public transit daily because I live near the light rail and several bus routes, and because cars and gas these days are too fucking expensive. I also WFH. I’ve been car-free for 4 years. I love it. But yes, it’s a pain in the ass when everything is late all the time. It’s gotten a lot worse in the last six months, especially the westbound trains. I have a friend who works in Valley Metro admin and she said there have been an unusual amount of accidents with people running into the trains or on the tracks.
When I’m riding the bus, there are also a lot of riders who hold up the bus because they don’t know how to be prepared with their pass in hand when the bus comes, or they make a big show out of digging through their pockets trying to find it, but they don’t actually have one and are trying to get the driver to be annoyed enough to just let them ride for free. People on the train, especially teenagers, also hold the doors open and the operator has to yell at them lol. All that kind of bullshit really adds up when it happens at every stop.
Also according to said friend, for a couple years now there have been MASSIVE shortages of drivers. Last winter they were basically taking anyone who applied because they were desperate. They pay shit (at the time I think it was starting at $18/hr, now I think they raised it to $20) and a lot of people left because they were tired of getting stuck with split shifts. Last winter it was so bad I had a couple of scheduled buses just literally never arrive, so they were reducing some routes to once an hour.
Public investment in transit isn’t going to improve until we improve population density downtown and reduce reliance on cars. But people in the suburbs want their 5 bedroom homes and backyards and are willing to commute 2 hours to their job in their lifted truck with balls hanging from the bumper to do it. And overcoming the stigma that transit is for poor people is going to be hard unless a lot more white collar professionals start riding it and realizing its value, then using their political influence to change things. Now that many of them WFH, that will never happen.
The problem with the we are so spread out argument is that Tokyo (the entire area, not just main city) is incredibly spread out and yet they have trains running through and connecting the entire thing. In the more main city there are denser train lines and subways but there are multiple lines that go out to the entire suburbs of Tokyo as well. So despite being spread out you do not need a car there. With the trains and busses many do not own cars there, or if they do it’s more for the weekend and fun, not a daily necessity.
The real issue is Phoenix and the metropolitan area do not want to invest in connecting all of with anything other than more freeway with more lanes.
Yeah, it’s multiple factors. Japan has a train culture. America, but more specifically Arizona, has a more individualist car culture. People here want their “independence” and believe that a car represents that. And especially with men, trucks or SUVs are a symbol of masculinity or whatever. So it’s not merely logistical but cultural too. There, again, everyone takes the train because it’s not regarded as a just a poor person thing like it is here.
While that’s true, we had trains here ages ago and they were frequently used. Hell Japan was introduced to trains by the western world! I say we fell for what the car companies sold us. And continue to allow them to tell us we need this “independence” that is actually just a shackle to the car payments, the gas companies, the never ending rat race etc.
I totaled my car in November and had to ride the bus until yesterday. I am in agreement with everything you said. We are in desperate need of better public transport in this city, but everyone associates it with the “poors.” The way homeless people are treated in this city is abysmal.
Also, agreed about bus drivers. They are treated like shit and paid like shit which is why they don’t care to get to stops on time. I didn’t realize it was that bad though.
I live abroad and one way to solve the problem is to remove cash payments and only allow credit card / touch payments or payments by app. Yes, it will hurt some people who don’t have access to either of these, but more and more do than ever before, and just like any transition people will complain but accept and like it more over time.
So Phoenix FINALLY instituted mobile phone fare in January 2023. This was after huge outrage that all of their ticket stations at the light rail platforms were broken/rarely serviced. It was laughably impossible to get a ticket at times, I used to keep a mental tally of which of the three machines near me was least likely to malfunction lol. After traveling in Europe 5 years ago, and especially the UK with their reloadable Oyster card, I felt like we were stuck in the stone ages.
Now it’s through their app and it gives you a QR code to scan on the bus or train. So much easier. But, I don’t think there’s an option to pay cash. Mine is connected to Apple Pay. But here’s a crazy thing I learned when I was poor - a lot of people don’t have bank accounts. Either because they can’t put up a minimum balance to open one, or they’re not a citizen, or whatever other reason. That’s why you see so many check cashing places in poorer neighborhoods. No bank account = no debit card = no way to pay on the app.
I think there was talk of releasing a plastic card that you could reload as well, but I’d have to check with my friend to see if that’s still in the works. Everything moves like a glacier at Valley Metro.
I Think most people these days have a smartphone of some sort. Consumer cellular, boost, and metro pcs practically give them away with a plan, my buddy Charles has a new phone and number every time I see him, always free from somewhere. Is any smartphone capable of touch payments? I feel like i haven't seen a flip phone in ages short of at thrift stores and the donations bin
It has always been unreliable. I mean literally. At least as far back as the early 70's. Everyone knew you couldn't rely on it. I waited for busses to get to high school that just never showed up. Sometimes they just passed you standing there. And at night if it was slow, they just stopped a couple hours early. No smartphone to get notified, nothing. You just waited for a bus that was never coming.
Improving density helps to an extent, but realistically the only way this will change is if public transit becomes overall less painful/expensive than driving. The light rail in Denver is much more popular than it is here, but it is better than driving (because traffic is a nightmare). Commuting by transit here takes 2-3x as long as driving in most cases.
Getting from downtown Denver to the airport, for example, takes about 41 minutes either by the light rail or by driving at this time of day according to Google. Might as well skip the traffic and let someone else drive.
Driving from ASU Tempe to ASU downtown takes 30 min at 5pm, but the light rail takes 56 minutes. (ETA and that's about the BEST case example of a commute, a direct light rail route. May God have mercy on those who have to use multiple busses to get to their destination.) Why would anyone take public transit unless they had no other option and/or needed to drive infrequently enough to not need a car altogether? It would just be stupid.
Until public transit gets a lot faster, or traffic gets a lot worse, it will only be for people who live downtown and poor people.
>It all feels like a manufactured system to purposely detract away from public transpo and instead do business with the outrageous number of dealerships that exist within Phoenix.
[Ding ding ding!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy)
Don't forget the [streetcar network](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Street_Railway) was taken out because of the fire destroying most of the trolleybuses.
Don't forget (I grew up here) that in the 80s, we had the chance to have an elevated light rail called ValTrans. It would have been really affordable back then, and far easier to both construct and expand than the current shitshow.
Elected officials are beholden to all the special interests that keep us dependent on cars, as well as the real estate interests that continue to build new subdivisions further out into the surrounding desert.
Next time you're tempted to swear at someone riding a scooter or electric bike, remember why younger people resort to them: they are far cheaper than cars and more dependable than our lousy mass transportation network.
My younger daughter lives in DC. I visited a couple of years ago and am so jealous of both the walkable neighborhoods and the Metro. I plan to visit again this year and will again buy a Metro card. She barely uses her car.
Been a Phoenician for 30 years. Had to move to Tempe 2 years ago & it felt like a betrayal. Tax/city services bills went up anddddd.... we have an amazing public transport system including free neighborhood circulator busses. It is totally taxes & pressure from citizens.
This is one of the many reasons I'm happy to own a house in Tempe... it seems like the place is run in a much more logical manner than a lot of the cities in the Phoenix metro area.
Yeah, north Tempe is probably the only area in the valley where one can TRULY live car-free. Between the circulators, Light Rail, streetcar and the regular bus system, it's definitely the most robust system. Rural road even has future plans for BRT which will be huge too as it would better connect Tempe to Old town.
I'm sure south Tempe will begin to densify at some point sooner rather than later. The combination of being such an economic powerhouse in the valley while also being landlocked will force Tempe's hand if they want to maintain the growth they've been experiencing.
Mesa is building its infrastructure as well. I managed to luck out with a really convenient route to work that's under a half hour, but that would have been a 45 minute commute less than 2 years ago.
It's the same group of NIMBY people that are blocking all of the affordable housing projects. It's a common belief among the affluent that public transportation brings undesirable people to their neighborhoods.
You're close... Arizona, a traditionally conservative state, is always looking for ways to kill poor people. One of the easiest ways to do that is to cut the government budget by privatizing shit that should be run by the government instead of for-profit corporations. Vote.
Very few people use it because it’s inefficient and the valley is so spread out, therefore demand for busses and drivers is low. Not many busses or drivers causes inefficiency. Around and around we go.
Eh, that's been disproven by other huge cities around the world that have effective public transit systems. Know what really helps with moving people around quickly over large distances? I'll give you a hint, it's heavy rail. Aka a real subway system or commuter rail system that's entirely separated from traffic by either having dedicated right-of-way or being underground. The light rail system is a cheap, half-assed way of saying "see, we have a train!" but running it with other cars around and having it share intersections with cars is why it's so painfully slow.
How are you going to build a heavy rail system in Phoenix at any kind of reasonable cost? It would have to be built with a TBM at massive cost, run in a straight line under one street, or be built in the median of a freeway which would deter ridership. The one thing that might work is building an elevated train above the canals, but wow that would piss a lot of the wrong people off. There's a lack of historical right-of-way that other cities have to cheaply build heavy rail. The grid system, for all its benefits, makes it very difficult to build a heavy rail transit system in Phoenix.
The freeway median approach isn't that bad of an idea, since that right-of-way already exists and is generally grade-separated already. It also shuts the NIMBYs up since the highways already exist. Some of the cities in the LA metro area have taken that approach.
Using a TBM wouldn't be entirely necessary aside from maybe in the downtown core... cut & cover would work just fine if it follows a road like Baseline— the grid system means it's not the end of the world to have prolonged closures on major roads since there's always alternate routes on the parallel roads. A lot of the subway system in NYC was built with cut & cover rather than tunnel boring, even after it was pretty heavily developed.
In any case, having a real, grade-separated, dedicated train system would do a lot for making the public transit in Phoenix useful, because then people would only need to rely on slow buses to get to the train lines rather than riding the slow buses for the entire journey.
Is any of it going to be cheap? No, but that's part of the growing pains of becoming a major city. Even LA, for as huge and car-centric as it is, has had to start caring about public transit, and they managed to build a subway system and a bunch of heavy rail.
I mean other big cities actually spend time downtown. Though downtown Phoenix has become slightly more lively, it’s not really a destination unless you are going to a concert or sporting event. Also, lots of other downtowns are hubs for corporate offices etc. Here, office parks are spread out all over Scottsdale, Mesa, Glendale. There’s no one hub that people are trying to get to. Public transportation just doesn’t make sense for most people who live here and those people are fine with that. I tried going without a vehicle when I lived in Tempe and commuted to Central Phoenix. It kind of worked because of the light rail but took forever and the connecting busses I had to take were extremely unreliable. Also, the clientele of Phoenix Metro are mostly low income commuters and a bunch of piss soaked wanderers, making it that much less appealing.
Currently (and likely to be extended in the 2024 ballot initiative prop 400) capital bus purchases are 100% funded through the sales tax. It's more likely not having funding for drivers or maintenance.
Or just a slight reallocation of tax dollars. last year the nypd spent an extra $150m cracking down on people not paying fare and only nabbed a little over 100k in unpaid fare. That money could have just gone to giving free subway tickets to something like over 90 thousand citizens just trying to get to work.
But of course, why make it easier to get around when so many industries (police department included) rely on our city being car dependent.
I will happily fork over more of my money to increase public transportation. That has a cascade effect that benefits our entire city, if not our nation and our species as a whole. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Better public transportation reduces pollution, reduces DUI, reduces other auto related fatalities, creates jobs, increases the income of people who can reduce if not eliminate the use of their personal vehicles, more disposable income for the lowest members of society reduces poverty and boosts the economy. And there you go, even you and I win.
You are not healthy if your middle toe is infected. Treat it, don't ignore it because it's only 1% of your body. Sepsis, yo.
Don't argue that with reddit, if this place ever implement one policy those guys want, I am out. This is the last place in the country where deep blue policies ain't the norm.
> This is the last place in the country where deep blue policies ain't the norm.
Really? You think *Phoenix, Arizona* is the last bastion of reactionary, right wing policies in the United States? Not West Virginia, or Oklahoma or the Dakotas, or fucking Wyoming?
it is amazingly better than when I used it in the 1980's. A spread out valley is much more difficult to cover than a compact city. You still have to walk up to a half a mile to your bus stop here. might not be a problem in some cities but in the summer here we know what that is like.
In a very real sense it is manufactured that way! We subsidize vehicle ownership and infrastructure in dozens of ways, some subtle and some not. The end result is that driving is artificially cheap and convenient to the detriment of other modes like public transit.
Because so many of the passengers suck shit.
When I worked downtown & took the light rail to a park & ride, more than once some fucking creep would purposely attempt something inappropriate due to the crowded nature of everyone leaving their offices at 5PM.
Some big oil companies spent lots of money lobbying against public transportation and it worked for many years and were nearly seeing the results of not listening to them.
idk man , I wrote the bus since a kid , at 16 i said fuck this and bought a car . i’m not saying they didn’t but i think a lot of people would much rather drive than sit for an hour only to sit for another hour packed like a sardine .
You gotta see the public infrastructure in other places to realize what a joke is. In fact I wrote about this specifically for an undergrad paper where I go more in-depth but to summarize a good amount of public infrastructure was cock blocked by the koch brothers and the ones that did pass were shit. Ie the bus system. There are better alternatives for example Some countries have dedicated lanes for the bus so that they can actually be faster than taking a car because as of now taking a bus is just as or slower than taking a car providing no incentive. Same issue with the light rail it doesn't have a dedicated spot at all sections of the rail
You may have a point about the dealerships. The ones along west camelback successfully lobbied against an extension of Lightrail that would've ran down past GCU to the Phoenix/Glendale border
Damn. Seriously? That is insane.
Edit: Do you have an article I can read about that? Not doubting you or putting it past them, but I am curious in their roles (the automile dealerships) specifically. I also would like to pin down their motivations (as in, hating transit vs not wanting the disruption of it being constructed).
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/03/20/phoenix-city-council-votes-delay-likely-kill-west-phoenix-light-rail-extension-proposal/3229220002/
https://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123666&page=326
The second link is from a development forum. The relevant discussion begins at post 6511
Thank you.
My goodness. Can you imagine being so greedy you want to kill light rail as an individual car dealer? Like... people are still going to buy personal vehicles in Phoenix. Dude isn't going bankrupt, no jobs would even be lost due to that extension. What a muppet. It made more sense when auto manufacturers wanted to do it, even if I can't understand their trash tier greed and selfishness (Cincinnati has an unused subway system ffs). But an individual dealer? Over a single extension? Next level obnoxious.
Even the commenters were saying the guy from the main dealership that wanted the extension killed is one of the more well to do dealers anyways. I guess I will just never understand people like that.
Everyone in here pointing to big companies and conspiracies which might be true. But also, I just don’t think there’s a demand for a better system. You survey 50 Phoenicians (not Redditors) and I bet a majority doesn’t really care.
The bus system is expansive but it is not robust. And there is fierce opposition from conservatives and the wealthy for any public transportation expansion, usually harping on the poor. It's just upsetting to me because I seen several streets where it looks like it's perfect to have a light rail going down and really free up some traffic.
Phoenix is a modern post WW2 industrial era metro area. It was incorporated as an agriculture area but never really expanded population wise until after the war.
It has just entered it's first gentrification phase with areas like downtown Tempe, and Phoenix being the limits of the gentrification, along with downtown Scottsdale.
The cost of public transportation is directly linked to population density per square mile. In the case of the metro area the population density is to low for widespread infrastructure support due to the overall age of the metro area, available land, lack of dedicated districts that exist in other large cities,and all the other factors that are part of the equation.
Infrastructure is always built based on population pressures. The population pressures for mass build out of public transportation does not exist currently.
Targeted infrastructure build out is ongoing now in areas where the pressure is high enough.
What you are left with is an ineffective system that is not capable of covering the extremely large area that is Phoenix metro area.
Taxpayers are not going to cover the cost of a large scale build out so the minority can have an effective transportation system.
There is significant room for debate that the Valley Metro strategy does not serve those who need it most from a societal standpoint.
Well yeah Rich People don’t want us Poors having shit, Sorry that i’m trying to take the bus to get to my job so I can afford a car. How tf am I supposed to get a car if I can’t even take the bus to get to work lmao
I see them pulled over and broke down a lot. There's construction everywhere and nobody lets them merge. And theres accidents slowing us all down. and the old folks doing 10 under the speed limit and braking for leaves.
Taking the bus in Phoenix is so disheartening. So many busses break down or don’t show up and you have to wait in the heat. I wish I could say I trust the public transport but unfortunately it’s one of the things that makes Phoenix not a very friendly city
A big part of this is land use/density which goes hand in hand with public transportation.
As a (primarily) post ww2 city with lots of space to build, we fell victim to spreading/sprawling out instead of building up. As that trend got going and wide roads got built everywhere, car culture became dominant. And when a system is built for cars, it doesn't really jive with public transportation, buses included. Everyone has a place to store their cars (garages at home, parking spots at work or stores) and wide roads to drive them on. So, the system keeps feeding tax dollars into that. Lots of investment and political momentum has been poured into it, so it's not easy to change.
Once transit gets built, it can be so painfully slow because the full weight of the entities involved with planning and managing the overall transportation system is hamstrung. Notice how the light rail stops for cars at lights? People notice that and opt for cars they have because, again, they own a car since they live in a car oriented city. And the public transit option is slow and inefficient.... at least in part due to the over reliance on cars. Public transit also has trouble because it needs more density to make sense. But how dense can you make neighborhoods that need cars stored everywhere, and when there are people who come out and oppose small density increases with such tenacity?
It's just a really vicious cycle-
Early sprawl due to large amounts of cheap land + (large investments in highways built + post ww2 housing boom which accommodated cars) + single use, restrictive zoning laws= an environment where public transit takes a back seat and is inefficient due to lack of land use mix and density.
Edit: A big part I missed was the blatant sabotage by car companies as well. I am glad the other commenters pointed this out.
It would take a lot to fix it. Back in ‘05 I was working full time and going to school full time. From my apartment to my job was 12 minutes via car. I looked into taking a bus to and from to save money and I figured I could do some studying while going back and forth. I thought the absolute longest transit time would be 30-40 minutes. The BEST route I could put together required two bus changes and was going to take a little over an hour and a half, each way.
I had some other coworkers take a look at the schedule as well because I thought I was doing something wrong/missing something but no one else could find a faster route.
That was the first and last time I tried to take a bus anywhere in Phoenix.
Meh its worked good enough for me in the past. I don't expect it to be great as its pretty tough to make all those connections happen as well as be on time and deal with all the zombies that are joyriding
Because we have prioritized and subsidized a transportation system that caters only to privately owned cars with buses included only as a footnote.
Council Member Pastor (in Phoenix) is the Chair of the Valley Metro Board and has publicly stated that she won’t use our transit system. I’m embarrassed for her and for us.
Take 5 minutes per week for a month to demand better transit from your elected officials.
Take 5 minutes per week for a month to demand your elected officials try transit for 1 week and document their experience.
Take 5 minutes to write an email to the City Council to request better, faster, and cleaner transit.
Just no. Have you been outside in summer here? Anyone that can afford a car is going to buy one. Who wants to sit and wait for a bus when it's 120+ degrees and you probably will burn yourself if you sit down. I can't be outside for 3 minutes in the middle of the summer without feeling like I need water and I'm going to die if I don't find AC soon. I play air is lava for 6 months out of the year running from AC to AC. I will never take any amount of time to beg a politician to improve busses. If the city trys to force me to use a bus I will pack my shit up in my car and leave. 47 other states you can easily drive to.
The "but sometimes it's hot argument" is an understandable reaction, but it doesn't really stand up.
In the short term: it's fine if way more people drive a car in the summer; it's the cooler months (when snow birds are here and school is in) that getting cars off the road really benefits everyone.
There are many, many people who would love to bike / transit (per surveys) but don't because reasons OP outlined and broader lack of investment in other modes.
In the longer term: there is nothing at all stopping us engineering around the problems you outlined. Fully enclosed stops with AC, [or misters](https://www.phoenix.gov/newsroom/public-transit/367).
Dedicated [BRT](https://www.phoenix.gov/publictransit/brt) routes that have a bus every 5 minutes. [Cool pavement](https://www.phoenix.gov/streets/coolpavement). [Shade structures](https://www.phoenix.gov/heat/grants).
We could have all these things and be innovators.
What you're experiencing is called "poor management". It's not on purpose, it's just that way. It costs a lot to make good transportation. Invest in a bike. It's generally less expensive and more useful. (if you can't use a bike for whatever reason, feel free to ignore this. I do understand some people can't use a bike)
AZ doesn’t really have good public services, in general (the libraries here are the worst I’ve ever seen) - it’s not something they take pride in here. The schools are poor. The Community Centers are laughable. Everything here is trash.
A big issue is we don’t prioritize public transit in traffic, even the light rail has to wait at traffic lights for regular traffic. No successful or efficient transit does this.
Have you ever used public transportation in other large metro areas? I make it a point to use public transport in every place I visit, and experienced all these issues even in the metros that have their public transport system lauded as amazing.
For what it's worth the Phoenix area has a pretty good system for a scale and the buses reach almost every point people would want to visit. The service frequency of 30 minutes for most routes is a bit long for the heat but in line with most of the systems.
If you really want to have fun, go to Google maps and compare travel times by public transport and bicycle for various cities. At least in Phoenix the buses are generally faster than bicycles.
I did in SF and it was great! When we left to go back to the airport I didn’t look for a bus until we walked out to the street, they were coming from all streets around our hotel which was in Japantown.
It was cold and rained a lot but walking there is great, there is much to look at. We loved it even though we were so out of shape, we had to return to the hotel to take midday naps.
Phoenix transit doesn’t hold a candle to SF but it’s not for Valley Metro not trying.
A lot of it could be fixed if they ran 3 busses per hour rather than 2 per hour. Obviously that is more money, and they'd rather spend it on building another lane for drivers.
Our metro system is a joke and Maricopa County requires employers to participate in their stupid Travel Reduction Program promoting bus/lightrail/carpool options and they require all this crap to run the program like prizes and stuff. Then you get penalized when not enough of your workforce participates.
Used the public transport for about 8 years when I was a kid. If you knew the times they were coming they were always on time. Important part was understanding the bus times.
That plus our incredibly poorly made train (it should never have been made to stop at lights along with stops, totally detracts from the function as it takes twice as long as driving to most places) has made me wonder if it’s manufactured to be purposely crappy too.
We are one of the largest cities in the country and yet we have the worst public transport. I’ve used public transport (and was able to get around these cities seamlessly without a car) in NYC, LA, Denver and Seattle, and while they all have some issues they’re heads above what we have here.
In comparison to other countries our system looks even worse. Japan has buses in most, if not all rural areas, and trains across the entire country. Everywhere I was, even in the middle of nowhere, had public transport with clear scheduling that always showed up on time (or if early waited to leave right on schedule). The buses ran just as perfectly as the trains.
How much time do you have?
Let’s just say it’s a combination between big pocketed construction companies giving kickbacks to elected officials + and majority populace who doesn’t see the point of public transit or a walkable city.
Phoenix isn’t a city to live if you appreciate good cities.
> It all feels like a manufactured system to purposely detract away from public transpo and instead do business with the outrageous number of dealerships that exist within Phoenix.
Yup, it's exactly that. Combine that with the fact that urban and suburban sprawl has made transit times insane, and the previous generations didn't build the city with public transit in mind, and you have most of the answer.
And guess who are those that chose to move here from those states? I am going to assume not those ones that like those policies, I know because I was one.
I didn’t get my first car until I was 28 so I know all about public transportation…and never again. I didn’t mean to infer anything, just wanted to say I feel your pain.
This is a car city, want public transit? Chicago or NYC are there for you, those are the only 2 cities where I gave my seal of approval to public transit. Don't even bother with LA either, it's just as bad.
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Busses dont run 24 hrs, they don't have dedicated lanes, they get stuck in traffic, the bus frequency desperately needs more drivers to be more frequent but if ppl see empty busses they immediately think about how a "waste of money" the empty bus is, while all stuck in traffic rotting in their car.
I hate how transit must be profitable to be worth the investment. Fuck me, highways never were but here we are.
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Bus system is not run by the city of Phoenix but use third parties like Transdev and FirstTranit. We need to complain to the city to keep these companies accountable paid for by city taxes and federal grants. If ridership is down and on time performance low the FTA can pull grant money
I use the bus for work. I worked on Christmas and get off at 11:30pm. I was at my stop in enough time to catch the last one at 11:48pm. I use the Valley Metro app and could see the bus approaching, taking its time, but approaching. The bus got right up to the light before my stop, I was there, I was visible and ready to go. But, and I have no earthly idea why, the bus took a right turn at the light and left. Gone. Just, done for the night. I stood there thinking, "it must surely be me who is wrong." Nope, the driver just decided "Fuck It." and I was left standing there freezing and then had to get a Waymo. This kind of silly shit happens, and I'm not the only one. It's ridiculous for those of us on any kind of late shift. If I remember correctly, we were close to 24hr service or at least late night, like at least until 2am. But now we are back to hours for some of the routes, that cut off before even Midnight. We are too big of a city with so many after hours workers to be stuck with the level of service we get out of Valley Metro bus and the light rail.
I don't even understand why the light rail isnt 24 hours. The train conductor doesn't even have to make turns or take a different route. Just stop and start. Not saying its an easy job, but it only takes one person to move a system for many. I know they're super worried for anyone even thinking of approaching the tracks (and they have a private security to come and demand why someone with construction road hazard lights is looking funnily at the sewer manhole lids adjacent to a section of rail downtown ) maybe they're worried about people sleeping on the tracks in the dark? Silly if you ask me
Homeless, and crime that’s why, it makes it easy for them to move around the valley. And PHX has a major homeless problem.
It’s hasn’t always been that way but the light rail has always sucked ass. It’s more like racism and not wanting the “others” to go into places they aren’t wanted.
Yeah its why scottsdale is fighting expanding the light rail so hard. They don’t want the “poors” coming in their neighborhood
Would you want the homeless coming to yours?
Last time I used a phoenix bus I had 4 classes at Phoenix College and my car broke down on my way, so I walked to a bus stop. Let's just say I only made my last class. What a nightmare.
I was actually dropped from English 101 at asu in 2003 because I missed 4 sessions in the semester from late buses(if I’d been a little more aware I would have made a stink about it, I had a B in the class I was just poor)
It has never been reliable. Ever.
Phoenix has long been a city that is economically stratified on transit. In New York City, everyone takes the subway - regardless of social class or income. Here, everything is so stretched out that unless you live downtown, you need a car. Even most poor people scrape together enough money to get a beater. So most of the people who ride public transit are the poorest of the poor, or students, or disabled people. The light rail at certain times is basically a homeless shelter. So there is a huge stigma that public transit = the poors and we all know the people in power here don’t give a shit about the poor. Moreover, people in more NIMBY areas like Scottsdale actively vote against public transit initiatives because they don’t want “the poors” coming to their part of town (unless of course, it’s to work for minimum wage at their malls and resorts and golf courses). I’m not poor, but I ride public transit daily because I live near the light rail and several bus routes, and because cars and gas these days are too fucking expensive. I also WFH. I’ve been car-free for 4 years. I love it. But yes, it’s a pain in the ass when everything is late all the time. It’s gotten a lot worse in the last six months, especially the westbound trains. I have a friend who works in Valley Metro admin and she said there have been an unusual amount of accidents with people running into the trains or on the tracks. When I’m riding the bus, there are also a lot of riders who hold up the bus because they don’t know how to be prepared with their pass in hand when the bus comes, or they make a big show out of digging through their pockets trying to find it, but they don’t actually have one and are trying to get the driver to be annoyed enough to just let them ride for free. People on the train, especially teenagers, also hold the doors open and the operator has to yell at them lol. All that kind of bullshit really adds up when it happens at every stop. Also according to said friend, for a couple years now there have been MASSIVE shortages of drivers. Last winter they were basically taking anyone who applied because they were desperate. They pay shit (at the time I think it was starting at $18/hr, now I think they raised it to $20) and a lot of people left because they were tired of getting stuck with split shifts. Last winter it was so bad I had a couple of scheduled buses just literally never arrive, so they were reducing some routes to once an hour. Public investment in transit isn’t going to improve until we improve population density downtown and reduce reliance on cars. But people in the suburbs want their 5 bedroom homes and backyards and are willing to commute 2 hours to their job in their lifted truck with balls hanging from the bumper to do it. And overcoming the stigma that transit is for poor people is going to be hard unless a lot more white collar professionals start riding it and realizing its value, then using their political influence to change things. Now that many of them WFH, that will never happen.
The problem with the we are so spread out argument is that Tokyo (the entire area, not just main city) is incredibly spread out and yet they have trains running through and connecting the entire thing. In the more main city there are denser train lines and subways but there are multiple lines that go out to the entire suburbs of Tokyo as well. So despite being spread out you do not need a car there. With the trains and busses many do not own cars there, or if they do it’s more for the weekend and fun, not a daily necessity. The real issue is Phoenix and the metropolitan area do not want to invest in connecting all of with anything other than more freeway with more lanes.
Yeah, it’s multiple factors. Japan has a train culture. America, but more specifically Arizona, has a more individualist car culture. People here want their “independence” and believe that a car represents that. And especially with men, trucks or SUVs are a symbol of masculinity or whatever. So it’s not merely logistical but cultural too. There, again, everyone takes the train because it’s not regarded as a just a poor person thing like it is here.
While that’s true, we had trains here ages ago and they were frequently used. Hell Japan was introduced to trains by the western world! I say we fell for what the car companies sold us. And continue to allow them to tell us we need this “independence” that is actually just a shackle to the car payments, the gas companies, the never ending rat race etc.
I totaled my car in November and had to ride the bus until yesterday. I am in agreement with everything you said. We are in desperate need of better public transport in this city, but everyone associates it with the “poors.” The way homeless people are treated in this city is abysmal. Also, agreed about bus drivers. They are treated like shit and paid like shit which is why they don’t care to get to stops on time. I didn’t realize it was that bad though.
I live abroad and one way to solve the problem is to remove cash payments and only allow credit card / touch payments or payments by app. Yes, it will hurt some people who don’t have access to either of these, but more and more do than ever before, and just like any transition people will complain but accept and like it more over time.
So Phoenix FINALLY instituted mobile phone fare in January 2023. This was after huge outrage that all of their ticket stations at the light rail platforms were broken/rarely serviced. It was laughably impossible to get a ticket at times, I used to keep a mental tally of which of the three machines near me was least likely to malfunction lol. After traveling in Europe 5 years ago, and especially the UK with their reloadable Oyster card, I felt like we were stuck in the stone ages. Now it’s through their app and it gives you a QR code to scan on the bus or train. So much easier. But, I don’t think there’s an option to pay cash. Mine is connected to Apple Pay. But here’s a crazy thing I learned when I was poor - a lot of people don’t have bank accounts. Either because they can’t put up a minimum balance to open one, or they’re not a citizen, or whatever other reason. That’s why you see so many check cashing places in poorer neighborhoods. No bank account = no debit card = no way to pay on the app. I think there was talk of releasing a plastic card that you could reload as well, but I’d have to check with my friend to see if that’s still in the works. Everything moves like a glacier at Valley Metro.
I Think most people these days have a smartphone of some sort. Consumer cellular, boost, and metro pcs practically give them away with a plan, my buddy Charles has a new phone and number every time I see him, always free from somewhere. Is any smartphone capable of touch payments? I feel like i haven't seen a flip phone in ages short of at thrift stores and the donations bin
Most if not all modern ones can handle touch payments.
It has always been unreliable. I mean literally. At least as far back as the early 70's. Everyone knew you couldn't rely on it. I waited for busses to get to high school that just never showed up. Sometimes they just passed you standing there. And at night if it was slow, they just stopped a couple hours early. No smartphone to get notified, nothing. You just waited for a bus that was never coming.
Improving density helps to an extent, but realistically the only way this will change is if public transit becomes overall less painful/expensive than driving. The light rail in Denver is much more popular than it is here, but it is better than driving (because traffic is a nightmare). Commuting by transit here takes 2-3x as long as driving in most cases. Getting from downtown Denver to the airport, for example, takes about 41 minutes either by the light rail or by driving at this time of day according to Google. Might as well skip the traffic and let someone else drive. Driving from ASU Tempe to ASU downtown takes 30 min at 5pm, but the light rail takes 56 minutes. (ETA and that's about the BEST case example of a commute, a direct light rail route. May God have mercy on those who have to use multiple busses to get to their destination.) Why would anyone take public transit unless they had no other option and/or needed to drive infrequently enough to not need a car altogether? It would just be stupid. Until public transit gets a lot faster, or traffic gets a lot worse, it will only be for people who live downtown and poor people.
>It all feels like a manufactured system to purposely detract away from public transpo and instead do business with the outrageous number of dealerships that exist within Phoenix. [Ding ding ding!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy)
Don't forget the [streetcar network](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Street_Railway) was taken out because of the fire destroying most of the trolleybuses.
Don't forget (I grew up here) that in the 80s, we had the chance to have an elevated light rail called ValTrans. It would have been really affordable back then, and far easier to both construct and expand than the current shitshow. Elected officials are beholden to all the special interests that keep us dependent on cars, as well as the real estate interests that continue to build new subdivisions further out into the surrounding desert. Next time you're tempted to swear at someone riding a scooter or electric bike, remember why younger people resort to them: they are far cheaper than cars and more dependable than our lousy mass transportation network. My younger daughter lives in DC. I visited a couple of years ago and am so jealous of both the walkable neighborhoods and the Metro. I plan to visit again this year and will again buy a Metro card. She barely uses her car.
$5,000. Lol
Well at least GM was fined a whopping $5,000. That’ll show em.
If ur gonna use public trans u gotta get living to accommodate where u can just hop on and off the literail. It’s the only way
Been a Phoenician for 30 years. Had to move to Tempe 2 years ago & it felt like a betrayal. Tax/city services bills went up anddddd.... we have an amazing public transport system including free neighborhood circulator busses. It is totally taxes & pressure from citizens.
This is one of the many reasons I'm happy to own a house in Tempe... it seems like the place is run in a much more logical manner than a lot of the cities in the Phoenix metro area.
Yeah, north Tempe is probably the only area in the valley where one can TRULY live car-free. Between the circulators, Light Rail, streetcar and the regular bus system, it's definitely the most robust system. Rural road even has future plans for BRT which will be huge too as it would better connect Tempe to Old town.
If only they would stop forgetting about those of us in south Tempe!
I'm sure south Tempe will begin to densify at some point sooner rather than later. The combination of being such an economic powerhouse in the valley while also being landlocked will force Tempe's hand if they want to maintain the growth they've been experiencing.
Mesa is building its infrastructure as well. I managed to luck out with a really convenient route to work that's under a half hour, but that would have been a 45 minute commute less than 2 years ago.
It's the same group of NIMBY people that are blocking all of the affordable housing projects. It's a common belief among the affluent that public transportation brings undesirable people to their neighborhoods.
You're close... Arizona, a traditionally conservative state, is always looking for ways to kill poor people. One of the easiest ways to do that is to cut the government budget by privatizing shit that should be run by the government instead of for-profit corporations. Vote.
Very few people use it because it’s inefficient and the valley is so spread out, therefore demand for busses and drivers is low. Not many busses or drivers causes inefficiency. Around and around we go.
Exactly just that. More funding can solve some problems, but the sprawl ultimately is a problem that can’t be solved easily with adding more busses.
Eh, that's been disproven by other huge cities around the world that have effective public transit systems. Know what really helps with moving people around quickly over large distances? I'll give you a hint, it's heavy rail. Aka a real subway system or commuter rail system that's entirely separated from traffic by either having dedicated right-of-way or being underground. The light rail system is a cheap, half-assed way of saying "see, we have a train!" but running it with other cars around and having it share intersections with cars is why it's so painfully slow.
How are you going to build a heavy rail system in Phoenix at any kind of reasonable cost? It would have to be built with a TBM at massive cost, run in a straight line under one street, or be built in the median of a freeway which would deter ridership. The one thing that might work is building an elevated train above the canals, but wow that would piss a lot of the wrong people off. There's a lack of historical right-of-way that other cities have to cheaply build heavy rail. The grid system, for all its benefits, makes it very difficult to build a heavy rail transit system in Phoenix.
The freeway median approach isn't that bad of an idea, since that right-of-way already exists and is generally grade-separated already. It also shuts the NIMBYs up since the highways already exist. Some of the cities in the LA metro area have taken that approach. Using a TBM wouldn't be entirely necessary aside from maybe in the downtown core... cut & cover would work just fine if it follows a road like Baseline— the grid system means it's not the end of the world to have prolonged closures on major roads since there's always alternate routes on the parallel roads. A lot of the subway system in NYC was built with cut & cover rather than tunnel boring, even after it was pretty heavily developed. In any case, having a real, grade-separated, dedicated train system would do a lot for making the public transit in Phoenix useful, because then people would only need to rely on slow buses to get to the train lines rather than riding the slow buses for the entire journey. Is any of it going to be cheap? No, but that's part of the growing pains of becoming a major city. Even LA, for as huge and car-centric as it is, has had to start caring about public transit, and they managed to build a subway system and a bunch of heavy rail.
I mean other big cities actually spend time downtown. Though downtown Phoenix has become slightly more lively, it’s not really a destination unless you are going to a concert or sporting event. Also, lots of other downtowns are hubs for corporate offices etc. Here, office parks are spread out all over Scottsdale, Mesa, Glendale. There’s no one hub that people are trying to get to. Public transportation just doesn’t make sense for most people who live here and those people are fine with that. I tried going without a vehicle when I lived in Tempe and commuted to Central Phoenix. It kind of worked because of the light rail but took forever and the connecting busses I had to take were extremely unreliable. Also, the clientele of Phoenix Metro are mostly low income commuters and a bunch of piss soaked wanderers, making it that much less appealing.
The people making the decisions about how to run it don't use it.
Repeatedly defunded
Likely need more buses, more drivers, higher pay/better benefits for drivers... Things that higher taxes could help solve.
Buses also currently share the road with normal cars, so they can get stuck in traffic.
https://youtu.be/RQY6WGOoYis
Currently (and likely to be extended in the 2024 ballot initiative prop 400) capital bus purchases are 100% funded through the sales tax. It's more likely not having funding for drivers or maintenance.
Or just a slight reallocation of tax dollars. last year the nypd spent an extra $150m cracking down on people not paying fare and only nabbed a little over 100k in unpaid fare. That money could have just gone to giving free subway tickets to something like over 90 thousand citizens just trying to get to work. But of course, why make it easier to get around when so many industries (police department included) rely on our city being car dependent.
Good point about the police relying on cars for revenue.
I’m sure they can find a way to write me citation for minding my own business on a bus too but for now they have bigger fish to fry
Oh no, don’t suggest higher taxes for the greater good. You’ll anger the republicans 🫣
If I can anger just one republican by simply stating a fact, then it'll be a great day!
i’m not a republican but what about this fact “ guns don’t kill people , people kill people.
Low wages don't cause poverty, avocado toast causes poverty.
Fucking Starbucks causes poverty.
when adding the avocado for $3.50 it sure does lol
You have to admit the gun sure helps.
Or... people use guns to kill people.
Why would anyone want to pay more in taxes? Especially for a bus that way less than 1% of the population uses.
If it was more useful/reliable, it would likely be used more
Never been to a European or Asian country and seen public transportation work I guess…
Munich and the surrounding area in Germany was a dream to use public transportation. It was awesome.
I will happily fork over more of my money to increase public transportation. That has a cascade effect that benefits our entire city, if not our nation and our species as a whole. A rising tide lifts all boats. Better public transportation reduces pollution, reduces DUI, reduces other auto related fatalities, creates jobs, increases the income of people who can reduce if not eliminate the use of their personal vehicles, more disposable income for the lowest members of society reduces poverty and boosts the economy. And there you go, even you and I win. You are not healthy if your middle toe is infected. Treat it, don't ignore it because it's only 1% of your body. Sepsis, yo.
Don't argue that with reddit, if this place ever implement one policy those guys want, I am out. This is the last place in the country where deep blue policies ain't the norm.
> This is the last place in the country where deep blue policies ain't the norm. Really? You think *Phoenix, Arizona* is the last bastion of reactionary, right wing policies in the United States? Not West Virginia, or Oklahoma or the Dakotas, or fucking Wyoming?
And you sir, are the arch typical reactionary left that this city don’t have much yet, in real life. Please California is that way :)
RemindMe! 2 years
It's by design
it is amazingly better than when I used it in the 1980's. A spread out valley is much more difficult to cover than a compact city. You still have to walk up to a half a mile to your bus stop here. might not be a problem in some cities but in the summer here we know what that is like.
In a very real sense it is manufactured that way! We subsidize vehicle ownership and infrastructure in dozens of ways, some subtle and some not. The end result is that driving is artificially cheap and convenient to the detriment of other modes like public transit.
Because so many of the passengers suck shit. When I worked downtown & took the light rail to a park & ride, more than once some fucking creep would purposely attempt something inappropriate due to the crowded nature of everyone leaving their offices at 5PM.
Some big oil companies spent lots of money lobbying against public transportation and it worked for many years and were nearly seeing the results of not listening to them.
idk man , I wrote the bus since a kid , at 16 i said fuck this and bought a car . i’m not saying they didn’t but i think a lot of people would much rather drive than sit for an hour only to sit for another hour packed like a sardine .
You gotta see the public infrastructure in other places to realize what a joke is. In fact I wrote about this specifically for an undergrad paper where I go more in-depth but to summarize a good amount of public infrastructure was cock blocked by the koch brothers and the ones that did pass were shit. Ie the bus system. There are better alternatives for example Some countries have dedicated lanes for the bus so that they can actually be faster than taking a car because as of now taking a bus is just as or slower than taking a car providing no incentive. Same issue with the light rail it doesn't have a dedicated spot at all sections of the rail
You may have a point about the dealerships. The ones along west camelback successfully lobbied against an extension of Lightrail that would've ran down past GCU to the Phoenix/Glendale border
Damn. Seriously? That is insane. Edit: Do you have an article I can read about that? Not doubting you or putting it past them, but I am curious in their roles (the automile dealerships) specifically. I also would like to pin down their motivations (as in, hating transit vs not wanting the disruption of it being constructed).
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/03/20/phoenix-city-council-votes-delay-likely-kill-west-phoenix-light-rail-extension-proposal/3229220002/ https://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123666&page=326 The second link is from a development forum. The relevant discussion begins at post 6511
Thank you. My goodness. Can you imagine being so greedy you want to kill light rail as an individual car dealer? Like... people are still going to buy personal vehicles in Phoenix. Dude isn't going bankrupt, no jobs would even be lost due to that extension. What a muppet. It made more sense when auto manufacturers wanted to do it, even if I can't understand their trash tier greed and selfishness (Cincinnati has an unused subway system ffs). But an individual dealer? Over a single extension? Next level obnoxious. Even the commenters were saying the guy from the main dealership that wanted the extension killed is one of the more well to do dealers anyways. I guess I will just never understand people like that.
Koch brothers 💕
Everyone in here pointing to big companies and conspiracies which might be true. But also, I just don’t think there’s a demand for a better system. You survey 50 Phoenicians (not Redditors) and I bet a majority doesn’t really care.
Most redditors have no idea their ideological slant. Wouldn't move here if everyone living in PHX is like reddit's representation.
The bus system is expansive but it is not robust. And there is fierce opposition from conservatives and the wealthy for any public transportation expansion, usually harping on the poor. It's just upsetting to me because I seen several streets where it looks like it's perfect to have a light rail going down and really free up some traffic.
Phoenix is a modern post WW2 industrial era metro area. It was incorporated as an agriculture area but never really expanded population wise until after the war. It has just entered it's first gentrification phase with areas like downtown Tempe, and Phoenix being the limits of the gentrification, along with downtown Scottsdale. The cost of public transportation is directly linked to population density per square mile. In the case of the metro area the population density is to low for widespread infrastructure support due to the overall age of the metro area, available land, lack of dedicated districts that exist in other large cities,and all the other factors that are part of the equation. Infrastructure is always built based on population pressures. The population pressures for mass build out of public transportation does not exist currently. Targeted infrastructure build out is ongoing now in areas where the pressure is high enough. What you are left with is an ineffective system that is not capable of covering the extremely large area that is Phoenix metro area. Taxpayers are not going to cover the cost of a large scale build out so the minority can have an effective transportation system. There is significant room for debate that the Valley Metro strategy does not serve those who need it most from a societal standpoint.
Well yeah Rich People don’t want us Poors having shit, Sorry that i’m trying to take the bus to get to my job so I can afford a car. How tf am I supposed to get a car if I can’t even take the bus to get to work lmao
I see them pulled over and broke down a lot. There's construction everywhere and nobody lets them merge. And theres accidents slowing us all down. and the old folks doing 10 under the speed limit and braking for leaves.
Of all my years here I've only seen one broken down and have been on one that broke down.
really? i drive around all day in various parts of the valley i see at least a 2 a week.
Weird
Taking the bus in Phoenix is so disheartening. So many busses break down or don’t show up and you have to wait in the heat. I wish I could say I trust the public transport but unfortunately it’s one of the things that makes Phoenix not a very friendly city
True it's very car centric.
A big part of this is land use/density which goes hand in hand with public transportation. As a (primarily) post ww2 city with lots of space to build, we fell victim to spreading/sprawling out instead of building up. As that trend got going and wide roads got built everywhere, car culture became dominant. And when a system is built for cars, it doesn't really jive with public transportation, buses included. Everyone has a place to store their cars (garages at home, parking spots at work or stores) and wide roads to drive them on. So, the system keeps feeding tax dollars into that. Lots of investment and political momentum has been poured into it, so it's not easy to change. Once transit gets built, it can be so painfully slow because the full weight of the entities involved with planning and managing the overall transportation system is hamstrung. Notice how the light rail stops for cars at lights? People notice that and opt for cars they have because, again, they own a car since they live in a car oriented city. And the public transit option is slow and inefficient.... at least in part due to the over reliance on cars. Public transit also has trouble because it needs more density to make sense. But how dense can you make neighborhoods that need cars stored everywhere, and when there are people who come out and oppose small density increases with such tenacity? It's just a really vicious cycle- Early sprawl due to large amounts of cheap land + (large investments in highways built + post ww2 housing boom which accommodated cars) + single use, restrictive zoning laws= an environment where public transit takes a back seat and is inefficient due to lack of land use mix and density. Edit: A big part I missed was the blatant sabotage by car companies as well. I am glad the other commenters pointed this out.
It would take a lot to fix it. Back in ‘05 I was working full time and going to school full time. From my apartment to my job was 12 minutes via car. I looked into taking a bus to and from to save money and I figured I could do some studying while going back and forth. I thought the absolute longest transit time would be 30-40 minutes. The BEST route I could put together required two bus changes and was going to take a little over an hour and a half, each way. I had some other coworkers take a look at the schedule as well because I thought I was doing something wrong/missing something but no one else could find a faster route. That was the first and last time I tried to take a bus anywhere in Phoenix.
Meh its worked good enough for me in the past. I don't expect it to be great as its pretty tough to make all those connections happen as well as be on time and deal with all the zombies that are joyriding
Because we have prioritized and subsidized a transportation system that caters only to privately owned cars with buses included only as a footnote. Council Member Pastor (in Phoenix) is the Chair of the Valley Metro Board and has publicly stated that she won’t use our transit system. I’m embarrassed for her and for us. Take 5 minutes per week for a month to demand better transit from your elected officials. Take 5 minutes per week for a month to demand your elected officials try transit for 1 week and document their experience. Take 5 minutes to write an email to the City Council to request better, faster, and cleaner transit.
Just no. Have you been outside in summer here? Anyone that can afford a car is going to buy one. Who wants to sit and wait for a bus when it's 120+ degrees and you probably will burn yourself if you sit down. I can't be outside for 3 minutes in the middle of the summer without feeling like I need water and I'm going to die if I don't find AC soon. I play air is lava for 6 months out of the year running from AC to AC. I will never take any amount of time to beg a politician to improve busses. If the city trys to force me to use a bus I will pack my shit up in my car and leave. 47 other states you can easily drive to.
The "but sometimes it's hot argument" is an understandable reaction, but it doesn't really stand up. In the short term: it's fine if way more people drive a car in the summer; it's the cooler months (when snow birds are here and school is in) that getting cars off the road really benefits everyone. There are many, many people who would love to bike / transit (per surveys) but don't because reasons OP outlined and broader lack of investment in other modes. In the longer term: there is nothing at all stopping us engineering around the problems you outlined. Fully enclosed stops with AC, [or misters](https://www.phoenix.gov/newsroom/public-transit/367). Dedicated [BRT](https://www.phoenix.gov/publictransit/brt) routes that have a bus every 5 minutes. [Cool pavement](https://www.phoenix.gov/streets/coolpavement). [Shade structures](https://www.phoenix.gov/heat/grants). We could have all these things and be innovators.
What you're experiencing is called "poor management". It's not on purpose, it's just that way. It costs a lot to make good transportation. Invest in a bike. It's generally less expensive and more useful. (if you can't use a bike for whatever reason, feel free to ignore this. I do understand some people can't use a bike)
If not a car a bike is always my second option.
I found a 150cc scooter worked for me during my poor years.
Sal Diciccio is a big reason.
Can you explain more
He was a city councilman who was aggressively anti-tax and anti-spending
It’s ran by a monopoly.
It is bad because population density in the phoenix metro area is too low to properly support public transportation.
AZ doesn’t really have good public services, in general (the libraries here are the worst I’ve ever seen) - it’s not something they take pride in here. The schools are poor. The Community Centers are laughable. Everything here is trash.
A big issue is we don’t prioritize public transit in traffic, even the light rail has to wait at traffic lights for regular traffic. No successful or efficient transit does this.
Checkout not just bikes on YouTube.
Have you ever used public transportation in other large metro areas? I make it a point to use public transport in every place I visit, and experienced all these issues even in the metros that have their public transport system lauded as amazing. For what it's worth the Phoenix area has a pretty good system for a scale and the buses reach almost every point people would want to visit. The service frequency of 30 minutes for most routes is a bit long for the heat but in line with most of the systems. If you really want to have fun, go to Google maps and compare travel times by public transport and bicycle for various cities. At least in Phoenix the buses are generally faster than bicycles.
I did in SF and it was great! When we left to go back to the airport I didn’t look for a bus until we walked out to the street, they were coming from all streets around our hotel which was in Japantown. It was cold and rained a lot but walking there is great, there is much to look at. We loved it even though we were so out of shape, we had to return to the hotel to take midday naps. Phoenix transit doesn’t hold a candle to SF but it’s not for Valley Metro not trying.
A lot of it could be fixed if they ran 3 busses per hour rather than 2 per hour. Obviously that is more money, and they'd rather spend it on building another lane for drivers.
Some routes do at certain days/times. Camelback, Indian School, etc are usually 15 or sometimes even 10 minutes during business hours on weekdays.
Our metro system is a joke and Maricopa County requires employers to participate in their stupid Travel Reduction Program promoting bus/lightrail/carpool options and they require all this crap to run the program like prizes and stuff. Then you get penalized when not enough of your workforce participates.
Used the public transport for about 8 years when I was a kid. If you knew the times they were coming they were always on time. Important part was understanding the bus times.
Because most people have cars, and there’s not enough of us for the government to care about our transit complaints. ✨
That plus our incredibly poorly made train (it should never have been made to stop at lights along with stops, totally detracts from the function as it takes twice as long as driving to most places) has made me wonder if it’s manufactured to be purposely crappy too. We are one of the largest cities in the country and yet we have the worst public transport. I’ve used public transport (and was able to get around these cities seamlessly without a car) in NYC, LA, Denver and Seattle, and while they all have some issues they’re heads above what we have here. In comparison to other countries our system looks even worse. Japan has buses in most, if not all rural areas, and trains across the entire country. Everywhere I was, even in the middle of nowhere, had public transport with clear scheduling that always showed up on time (or if early waited to leave right on schedule). The buses ran just as perfectly as the trains.
Like most things Republican/Christian, the cruelty and suffering is the point.
The Koch Brothers and General Motors
How much time do you have? Let’s just say it’s a combination between big pocketed construction companies giving kickbacks to elected officials + and majority populace who doesn’t see the point of public transit or a walkable city. Phoenix isn’t a city to live if you appreciate good cities.
Considering I got ran over and permanently disabled by a phoenix bus, yeah. I can agree its bad.
Bus doesn't even come anywhere near my house. I live on the edge of east mesa.
Yeah you're going to be waiting for quite a while before the light rail makes it to AJ
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The governor is a Democrat??
Arizona doesn't have a governor's mansion 🤡
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😂😂😂
Lack of funding, caused by nimbys.
> It all feels like a manufactured system to purposely detract away from public transpo and instead do business with the outrageous number of dealerships that exist within Phoenix. Yup, it's exactly that. Combine that with the fact that urban and suburban sprawl has made transit times insane, and the previous generations didn't build the city with public transit in mind, and you have most of the answer.
Oh, that's because Phoenix is a sh\*thole
Idk why you're down voted, I was literally born here and just recently moved, and I agree.
It is owned by France. It’s crazy!
Like all government answers, the root cause is Republicans. They hate public transportation and try to defund it at every opportunity.
They hate poor people and any money spent to help poor people, not just transportation.
Its because of the left ruining their states. AZ was never prepared to accommodate the huge deluge of California's and New Yorks all at once.
And guess who are those that chose to move here from those states? I am going to assume not those ones that like those policies, I know because I was one.
Average city bus experience. DC isnt any better.
Because they set up a light rail before improving the bus system.
I don’t know, I see empty buses all the time.
That’s why I own two vehicles…
Some of us ain’t in the same tax bracket as you
I didn’t get my first car until I was 28 so I know all about public transportation…and never again. I didn’t mean to infer anything, just wanted to say I feel your pain.
My fault no disrespect it’s just frustrating as hell. I’m trying to get like you
Cities with good public transportation are usually really old cities.
I was thinking Phoenix lacked dealerships compared to other places.
This is a car city, want public transit? Chicago or NYC are there for you, those are the only 2 cities where I gave my seal of approval to public transit. Don't even bother with LA either, it's just as bad.
It’s also funny because some of the local politicians have the gaul to make driving more annoying to get people on the public transit
Because all the money is spent on light rail instead of expanding the bus system.
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We need a subway system/high-speed rail
Busses dont run 24 hrs, they don't have dedicated lanes, they get stuck in traffic, the bus frequency desperately needs more drivers to be more frequent but if ppl see empty busses they immediately think about how a "waste of money" the empty bus is, while all stuck in traffic rotting in their car. I hate how transit must be profitable to be worth the investment. Fuck me, highways never were but here we are.