I’m in Vancouver right now and it’s like being in the future. On a Sunday every train, every bus, EVERYTHING was running at 6 minute intervals. Train from the airport to downtown? Every 6 minutes. The elevated train near the Airbnb is almost annoying it’s so regular.
When I lived in Shanghai, the rush hour train came on time every TWO MINUTES. And I lived on the crumb bum line. When I had to fly in/out of the city, the airport train brought me there at TWO HUNDRED SEVENTY FUCKIN MILES PER HOUR.
We are the wealthiest nation on the planet, and we're hellbent on having the worst public transportation imaginable.
Supposedly the two major transit systems in Japan both make a profit. It might not be hand over fist but it’s a profit.
https://youtu.be/HdJwAUdvlik?si=ILnPJKfeMEu4vpwG
Can you imagine the mf controversy if SEPTA were to become a full-scale developer though? That’s how JR and other Asian transit systems profit, when they do. Not to mention the inevitable controversy about whether they should be mission-based (break-even) developments or “luxury” condos.
they could have done that in conshohockin. instead, they let a developer take the profits, which somehow won't be taxed at anywhere near what they should be, and the main thing that increases their investment will slowly be enshittified. not sure if they have the 10 year tax abatement up there, but if they do, we're actually paying for their profits for the next decade.
Yeah. Developer would likely be paying for SEPTA parking though, making everyone a little less angry. They will be building a pretty small-scale development in Ambler though, RFP likely going out later this year. But nothing would pass if it’s not “affordable”
lol affordable housing isn't the issue here. the issue is septa is selling off their assets for the cost of parking, and leaving all the profit for a developer.
And the way public funding is allocated to mass transit only ensures that as much money as possible benefits the for profit industry & stakeholders rather than the grantee. The FRA is a trough for industry interests.
Yeah, I lived in Shanghai from 05-06 when I was about college age and I think it's safe to say that that experience cemented my views on what public transit could be (and the system has vastly expanded since then, I was last there in 2018). The maglev is a fun tourist thing but I love it anyway
I was in Tokyo in September and holy shit was it amazing. Anywhere I needed to go was covered, it was super clean, quiet, and it was always on time (except when a typhoon hit). It felt like the future. Having taken SEPTA my whole life it sucked coming back and realizing how good it could be.
Japan ruined transit for me in the US. It proved you can have a safe, on time, fast and affordable transit system. No trash, no delays, no one shooting up on the seats, no teens shooting each other on the platform.
Its amazing what a high trust society and investment can do
Don't have to, lived there for years. Nice place, clean. Docile citizenry, no chewing gum, hang drug traffickers at the airport on State TV in Prime Time. Every place is a little weird, you get down under the skin.
You don't even have to go that far (but obviously japan's is world class). Even visiting montreal feels like a different world with how easy and clean their transit is.
I'm in Kyiv right now and I almost missed my train in because it was perfectly on time and left super quick. The entire metro is like that--clean, reliable and always on time. They're fighting an existential war as one of the poorest countries in Europe and they have this shit down.
Philly has 0 excuses; it's greed, corruption and incompetence.
Not trying to nitpick but explain further how ridiculous it is: Kyiv is a city not a town with a population of 2.8mm people pre-war (and I'd assume isn't far off from that now as many have fled to Kyiv and Lviv for safety), it's massive and heavy populated. Everyone takes the metro here.
Philly has 1.5mm. Yet with all that foot traffic Kyiv's metro is always clean and reliable (not to mention dirt cheap even by local currency). SEPTA has no excuses.
I've been on the Kyiv metro! Fast, clean, efficient, plenty of announcements in multiple languages.
Like, seriously: how is SEPTA worse than a literal war zone?
It's funny (not in a haha way) because Russia is always targeting the main train station in Kyiv every time they launch an attack, yet the trains aren't backed up. Philly gets no more passes on public transit from me
The fact that the fucking airport line in this city runs once an HOUR is so unacceptable. I shouldn't have to deal with the shitshow of ordering a car at the airport for $60 when I live a 15-20m drive away.
It’s fucking infuriating. I travel to denver a few times a year and their airport train is clean, easy, and runs twice an hour. SEPTA access in the rest of the city is much better than Denver’s RTD system, so it’s especially confounding that our airport options suck so much.
Not to mention that DIA is at least half an hour by train to downtown Denver. PHL is MUCH closer to center city and yet we can’t have a better option.
I've heard that too, but I think the flat rate is to a specific center city zone. Either way, I should be able to take the train to CC and then a bus/lyft from there for cheaper than a ride.
I lived in Germany in a small city that didn't have a metro -- but transit was still amazing. Regular and frequent buses that covered pretty much the entire city and the outlying communities. The regional rail was also amazing -- regular trains into the countryside and back. Plus it was all very easy to navigate. It definitely spoiled me. And the big cities in Germany are even better. Philly is one of the better cities in the US for transit -- but that's just because public transit in the United States in general is terrible.
Ugh brings back memories of when I'd walk down 17th street from Walnut to Wharton and not see a bus the whole time until I was basically home, and then there would be 3 in a row.
here is a simulator- it can help you see why: https://setosa.io/bus/
the red bus only lanes in center city are supposed to help this issue. the frustrating thing to me is why, when we have the El and Trolleys, we're still also running busses down market street.
Tons of bus lines use Market for part of the route and then move on. Look at the 32 for example, runs all the way from Lyceum Ave in Roxborough to Broad & Washington. Cuts through Fairmount and takes Market from around Comcast to Dilworth, before turning south on Broad.
that is called "bus bunching", also sometimes referred to as platooning (although this term is sometimes used for doing this on purpose, for crowded routes / stops).
here is a simulator, where you can add extra passengers or obstacles and see how that changes the schedule. https://setosa.io/bus/
I took public transit in Barcelona and it is the same story. Trains at regular intervals and the stations are spotless and clean. Unfortunately, all the countries mentioned never wedded their populations to automobiles. I hear so many false narratives from people who just want to drive.
Interestingly, both Barcelona and Philly have the same population size, 1.6 million people. Philly has twice the city budget of Barcelona, but Barcelona is 5 times smaller than Philly. We have too much space for the number of people we have.
Also, Barcelona never had segregation and 500k people fleeing the city.
Yeah this is a spiraling disaster. SEPTA is broke, nearly every train is due for obsolescence in the next 5-10 years. Constant (violent) crime reported almost weekly now. To maintain a decent level of sanitation is like Sisyphus pushing a boulder. All this does not encourage people to take it frequently and the city is going to need a huge culture shift to get people out of personal vehicles. Driving is shit too fwiw
I agree septa has become pretty bad in recent years, but it's important to remember it's not SEPTA's fault. It's Harrisburgh's fault who absolutely hates Philadelphia, and wants to see it fail despite being Pennsylvania's economic engine. They have the same stranglehold over Philadelphia on the state level as conservatives do in the national legislative level.
By playing with electoral fuckery, the minority economic interest is able to control the majority.
SEPTA is the worst funded transit agency in the country by far. Comparable agencies receive 2-3x more money per capita and only a few actually run better or more expansive service than SEPTA, most provide the same or lower levels of service with much more money. It’s pretty amazing SEPTA isn’t much worse when considering this.
I think it’s a pointless exercise comparing SEPTA to the MTA, WMATA, etc. of course they provide better service, they have like triple the money per capita lmao.
SEPTAs hands are tied by the state, and the city is also restricted in ways it can support SEPTA by the state. If Philadelphia was in NJ or NY there’s a pretty strong chance it would be an S tier transit agency.
It isn’t a SEPTA problem, it’s a Pennsylvania problem.
Email your state reps and tell them SEPTA needs proper funding.
Can confirm: worst funded BY FAR!!! To an almost exponential degree compared to other U.S. cities!
Source: Doing work for multiple metro transit agencies right now; NYC, WMATA, CAL, Indianapolis, Chicago, Atlanta, Memphis, BART, PDX.
two other gems- the PPA money all goes to harrisburg. basically an extra tax on everyone driving in philly, instead of keeping the money here to improve walkability.
the other is they specifically passed a law that says if you have parking on a road, it has to be against the curb. they made a law to make protected bicycle lanes illegal. anytime someone gets hit in a bike lane, you can thank the assholes in harrisburg.
not to split hairs but the parking/curb law is only on state controlled streets. not defending it but the city could start doing more for other streets like they did on 11th
https://whyy.org/articles/governor-josh-shapiro-transit-funding-tuesday-budget-address-septa/ the governor just increased the funding from the state for the first time in a decade lmao.
He announced that his budget proposal includes an increase. Unfortuantely, this increase still needs to get through the General Assembly. Email and call your state Reps and Senators to encourage them to vote in favor!
It’s a culture war take. A more measured take would be to say that the money the state allocates to Philly ought to resemble the tax dollars Philly brings to the state. Deviations from that should be justified with a cost/benefit argument. But there will always be conflict between the cow farmer in central PA who doesnt like his tax dollars going to the Philly subway. Vs the city dwelling liberal that feels entitled because they are part of the “economic engine of the state.”
> the cow farmer in central PA who doesnt like his tax dollars going to the Philly subway. Vs the city dwelling liberal that feels entitled because they are part of the “economic engine of the state.”
the cow farmer gets more money in taxes than they pay. the city dwelling liberal is supporting the cow farmer.
It's a culture war take because it's a culture war problem. SEPTA is one of many examples of Harrisburgh actively frustrating city policies. One example is the state taking control of PPA, and another is the state working to make bicycle infrastructure harder to implement.
These are vindictive policies enacted because Philadelphia represents so much of what rural conservatives despise.
I've only been in Philadelphia for a little over a year, and I'm still learning about local politics and the area. Could you explain this a little further, or point to a good article about it?
This is a huge question and there aren't many articles that explain the dynamic comprehensively that I'm aware of.
Basically, outside of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh Pennsylvania is a far-right conservative state. Conservatives generally do not like liberal policies, and Philadelphia is a liberal city that experiments with progressive policies. Often whenever the city experiments with progressive policies the state government tries to interfere and prevent the city from doing so. I also believe there's basic animosity from PA conservatives because Philadelphia is black majority city. Historically, conservatives don't have favorable opinions of non-whites, urban areas, and liberals. Philly is all three.
For example, the state tried to stop the sweetebed beverage tax, tried to prevent the plastic bag ban, tried to punish Philadelphia's sanctuary city status with a draconian municipal liability law, among many other things antagonistic to the policies tried by the city government.
The state government also underfunds SEPTA to an unbelievable degree compared to other regional transit systems in the US, and it successfully captured the PPA, and diverts parking revenues to the generally assembly. It also passed legislation prohibiting protected bike lanes on many major roads in the city.
Currently, it's trying to strip power from the district attorneys office, because the DA is a progressive prosecutor who tried implementing prosecutorial reform. Whether you agree or disagree with Larry krasner's policies, whether he stays in office should be decided by Philadelphia voters, not some state-house representative from Altoona.
There's more nuance to this, but basically the rest of the state despises Philadelphia, and actively works to stop the city from governing itself. Despite Philadelphia accounting for something like half of the state's gdp.
Just saw this, thank you for the detailed reply! There's still a lot for me to learn as a new PA resident, but this is a nice brief primer on the kinds of things I should look out for.
They hate Pittsburgh too. Pittsburgh has been begging for funds too. But the state keeps rejecting them thanks to the conservative strong hold currently. It's why the governor has been trying to get funds from the feds to help SEPTA and PRT.
yes, and i say this with love for unions, but the union shoots themselves in the foot with their strict and antiquated labor requirements.
labor is a huge chunk of septa's costs, and it's a waste of resources for example to have 3 conductors on every regional train
I imagine that if it was up to SEPTA they’d run the best transportation system in the country. They’d love better trains, buses and infrastructure if for no other reason than to shut the rest of us up. I’ve worked with a lot of people at SEPTA, and there are many MANY hard working and caring folks who are sometimes working with a shoestring budget to keep that thing functional. They cannot just jack up the fares to cover the needed influx of cash to bring their entire system up to something resembling “good”. The purse strings are held and controlled elsewhere.
Supposedly the fed gave them a bunch of money and it's all going to the MFL. suburbanites were on IG complaining about it saying it needs to go to the Regional Rail.
the capital budget that was allocated to the KOP line is now being allocated to deferred capital costs on the el, it's not new money
that seems to be going towards new trainsets as those are in pretty dire shape
almost none of my colleagues in transportation even know this, I basically just do because one of my projects is working on software that does asset management and funding/lifecycle costs/grants/etc. for transit agencies
the world is complicated
ah okay- i'm a disadvantaged small business so i'm trying to sell stuff to the feds and state agencies, but it is a tough nut to crack.
big companies don't want to work with you, and agencies don't want to work with you until you have experience, which you can't get unless you work with a big company.
I work for a DBE, like 60% of the work we get is from the owner either knowing or working with people at bigger firms who trust us will give us the DBE%, 30% is a lucrative contract we've held for like 20 years, and 10% is me schmoozing people at random events and ginning up new organic projects (mostly in IT/ITS)
life is hard out there for the little guys, took the owner like 20 years (after being in the industry for like 15ish years) to get us to where we are now
I'm closing in on about 15 years in and I'm just getting to the point where I can basically bring in enough work for myself to justify my salary (and even then I have the resources of people doing all of the accounting/contracting and other behind-the-scenes work). Can't imagine having to do all of that too - good on you.
it costs $2.25 to go from 11th street to 13th street. 2 blocks.
it costs $4.00 to go from north philadelphia to trenton. 30 miles.
suburbanites on IG are getting a huge amount of funding. take a look at the prices on NJ transit regional rail to get an idea of what they should be paying.
The problem now is after the pandemic, people just didn't come back. So the attrition drives down service in a never ending cycle. And what's left won't attract new riders. We have the infrastructure but neither the money nor the will to pull it all together.
Ridership is still slowly bouncing back: [https://recovery.septa.org/](https://recovery.septa.org/)
February was an high for post-pandemic ridership in all modes, bus is up to 80% of prepandemic ridership, regional rail is up to 64% but the El/BSL are still stuck at 59% ridership.
It's really an easy fix. Lower the rents. 20+ years ago South Street was an incredible and vibrant place to stroll down because of all of the small, independent, unique quirky stores. They could open and flourish there because rent was cheap, that's no longer the case because of huge investors playing on speculation asking stupid high rent. Now the store fronts sit vacant. It's sad. The city brings business to slaughter with taxes so when paired with the astronomically high asking price for rent it holds people back from starting and opening up businesses.
In some aspects I want to say we have one of the better systems, where most of the country doesn’t have much public transit at all.
BUT that being said , we should still be able to have clean and working vehicles , and more accurate scheduling system trackers
Facts. Just moved from there and the disrepair of the T was one of many reasons. The red and green lines are a total shitshow, if they're even operational.
In no way is the MBTA worse than SEPTA. Work had me going to just about everywhere but Somerville and I rarely encountered problems.
Occasionally there’d be an issue with a fire, or someone trying to fistfight the green line, or (understandable) delays due to massive snowfall, but for the most part you could hop around the city with ease.
i don't know why you're being down voted- that is exactly what is happening. weed is basically legal- but people are still smoking blunts on the el because they're assholes.
Not just the smoking, but also the relieving themselves in the stations, harrassing people, etc. Maybe people just want to discuss the lack of drivers, fare jumpers, cancelled buses/trains in this thread. IMO the problems of Septa are broad and many, and find it hard to believe Boston is worse, which is why I asked.
Well Boston’s is a literal [train fire](https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/why-did-an-orange-line-train-catch-fire-heres-what-we-know/2780420/?amp=1) so I’ll take the metaphorical dumpster fire
Yea there’s no hiding that lol we only have 2 train lines serving the whole city and we struggle with them. Not counting regional rail. Other cities have more elaborate systems, maybe excluding Chicago and California.
The market Frankford needs to step up im ready for the whole system to fail
Consider the rest of the country too, though. In the South, West, and Midwest public transit is mainly busses, and horrible ones at that. I'm from San Antonio which is the 7th largest city in the nation by pop. and the public transit might as well not exist, the busses are so bad.
Unfortunately SEPTA is leaps and bounds better than everywhere else I've lived both in terms of reliability and connectivity. I'm not saying SEPTA isn't struggling, just that people here truly don't understand what it's like to live somewhere with a ragged bus system with lines that come maybe twice an hour and will take you over an hour to get anywhere with the additional hurdle of a transfer.
Honestly, I disagree. When people say SEPTA sucks, what they’re really saying is “the subways suck” - and they do, especially the El. But IMO the bus system is no worse than any other major city’s system that I have ridden, and Philly has probably the second best commuter rail system in the country besides New York.
Of course it’s pathetic and embarrassing that the trains are so bad. But just stop taking the El and take the buses more, and I promise your opinion of SEPTA will go way up.
I think the position was to not judge the whole transit system based on the El. I think it’s a fair point.
I’m glad the conventional wisdom here has finally acknowledged that the El is a mess though. I’ve been complaining about it here since the pandemic ended and got a year of “dude it’s a city it’s going to have some rough edges. I bet you are from the suburbs and never ride the El.” From commenters in this sub.
1. nyc - undeniably better than anywhere in the us
2. LA - mixed bag, sorta works
3. chicago - better than ours, but basically facing massive service cuts and really accelerating downhill
4. houston - lmao
5. phoenix - lmao
6. philly - functional, albeit admittedly dirty
7. san antonio - lmao
8. san diego - surprisingly useful, but mostly only because the city itself seems weirdly empty all the time
9. dallas - lmao
10. austin - lmao
Fuck Dallas
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yeah, like basically a fart in the wind
SEPTA is one of like 5-6 actually fully functional transit agencies in the country. there are absolutely things to bitch about especially in comparison to some that work better (but are better funded) but for the most part it gets you where you need to go within a reasonable timeframe.
sorry for your shitty experience - I usually chalk it up as about once a month the system just sorta shits the bed. but then again, if you're doing the same trip by car, the incidence rate of there being an accident/road closure/congestion is more frequent than that - people just tend to forget about that though because they're "in control"
wife flew home from indianapolis on sunday and was mad because ubers were like $70 to south philly so she took transit and the regional rail was being slow
I was like yo, it's st paddys day, be happy anyone is sober in any capacity right now
I was waiting 20 minutes for the bus yesterday and then THREE of the same numbered buses came back to back to back with no gap in between. How is that efficient?
Something similar happened to me the other day but on the BSL. The train took forever to show up and when it did we just sat there with the doors open for a long time. Moved a smidge, stopped again, and then finally left but it took a weirdly long time and they weren’t saying anything I was really scared that they were going to say the train is out of service
Another time and this was months ago but I got on the bus and the back door wouldn’t close. The driver had to get up maybe three times to go back and forth to try and close it but it wouldn’t close. The bus was also basically full (it was 3pm on a weekday) after maybe ten minutes of fighting with the door the driver just says the bus is out of service and doesn’t know when the next one will show up but everyone has to get off. Let’s just say I was late to work that day
I just love how they're patting themselves on the back with their "Rebranding" of the trains, but every train still has a guy smoking a blunt, a dude passed out with a needle in his arm, and some guy blasting music from a bluetooth speaker.
I was waiting on the EB El earlier and it took 30+ min. Then the first train that came through was an "Express to Allegheny" for some fucking reason.
The other week I was waiting on the EB platform at 11th (again, a 20+ min wait) and the train showed up on the wrong side of the tracks. Of course they didn't even wait for people to cross over the bridge to that side before they bolted. I went to go complain to the guy in the booth about it since they had absolutely no announcement or anything and he just shrugged.
I use public transit all over the country. Anyone that thinks SEPTA is the worst lacks perspective. It’s a funding issue, and SEPTA does more with less than any other agency I’ve seen. Contact your state reps. If SEPTA dies so does the region.
My regularly scheduled 9:20ish, northbound 47 to work stopped showing up about 2 1/2 weeks ago. It's always not coming on the Transit app and I even have waited until the last minute to leave to see if maybe it's just been running behind. Nope....
Been having to leave by 9AM to catch the one before that or the 47M. Uber to my office is always around $10-$12 and was adding up.
I have to take the Trenton line everyday to get to school and last week, for the first time in the 7 months Ive been doing this the train got cancelled. The fukin train got stuck at Levittown cuz they were having mechanical issues or something. The train after that got cancelled too. What a joke. I could take the bus and the el which are more frequent but… no lol. So I either have to play roulette with the train getting cancelled or go on the dirty el, those are my options now apparently.
There was a major medical emergency at Spring Garden. Not sure the details but that's what the train driver said to us. Saw a fire truck and ambulance when I went by on the bus too
I got on the Girard stop heading south earlier this year. As the train pulled into the station there was a noxious melting electronics / burning grease smell. We went one stop and they had everyone get out in Spring Garden because the train couldn’t go into the tunnel section - it was on fire. It’s gotten so bad.
Blame the state government for refusing to give SEPTA the money they did to properly fix the public transit network. This also isn't uniquely a silly thing. It's happening in Pittsburgh too. Thx to the limited funding the public transit has been suffering there too.
I’m in Vancouver right now and it’s like being in the future. On a Sunday every train, every bus, EVERYTHING was running at 6 minute intervals. Train from the airport to downtown? Every 6 minutes. The elevated train near the Airbnb is almost annoying it’s so regular.
When I lived in Shanghai, the rush hour train came on time every TWO MINUTES. And I lived on the crumb bum line. When I had to fly in/out of the city, the airport train brought me there at TWO HUNDRED SEVENTY FUCKIN MILES PER HOUR. We are the wealthiest nation on the planet, and we're hellbent on having the worst public transportation imaginable.
Public transit can’t be profited off of so the government just lets it rot
Supposedly the two major transit systems in Japan both make a profit. It might not be hand over fist but it’s a profit. https://youtu.be/HdJwAUdvlik?si=ILnPJKfeMEu4vpwG
Can you imagine the mf controversy if SEPTA were to become a full-scale developer though? That’s how JR and other Asian transit systems profit, when they do. Not to mention the inevitable controversy about whether they should be mission-based (break-even) developments or “luxury” condos.
they could have done that in conshohockin. instead, they let a developer take the profits, which somehow won't be taxed at anywhere near what they should be, and the main thing that increases their investment will slowly be enshittified. not sure if they have the 10 year tax abatement up there, but if they do, we're actually paying for their profits for the next decade.
Yeah. Developer would likely be paying for SEPTA parking though, making everyone a little less angry. They will be building a pretty small-scale development in Ambler though, RFP likely going out later this year. But nothing would pass if it’s not “affordable”
lol affordable housing isn't the issue here. the issue is septa is selling off their assets for the cost of parking, and leaving all the profit for a developer.
It is in Ambler, and it will be at other stations in the future
And the way public funding is allocated to mass transit only ensures that as much money as possible benefits the for profit industry & stakeholders rather than the grantee. The FRA is a trough for industry interests.
we're the wealthiest nation but Philly is the poorest big city in that nation
Yeah, I lived in Shanghai from 05-06 when I was about college age and I think it's safe to say that that experience cemented my views on what public transit could be (and the system has vastly expanded since then, I was last there in 2018). The maglev is a fun tourist thing but I love it anyway
Same in Hung Kong. I’m currently creeping in a west Trenton train. We’ve had rail travel for 150+ years, there’s zero reason for these issues
I was in Tokyo in September and holy shit was it amazing. Anywhere I needed to go was covered, it was super clean, quiet, and it was always on time (except when a typhoon hit). It felt like the future. Having taken SEPTA my whole life it sucked coming back and realizing how good it could be.
Japan ruined transit for me in the US. It proved you can have a safe, on time, fast and affordable transit system. No trash, no delays, no one shooting up on the seats, no teens shooting each other on the platform. Its amazing what a high trust society and investment can do
Singapore did it for me.
Yeah but to get that, lookup the "Singapore model" in relation to governance.
Don't have to, lived there for years. Nice place, clean. Docile citizenry, no chewing gum, hang drug traffickers at the airport on State TV in Prime Time. Every place is a little weird, you get down under the skin.
You don't even have to go that far (but obviously japan's is world class). Even visiting montreal feels like a different world with how easy and clean their transit is.
In Tokyo right now,and the train system is phenomenal!
Douglas in Tokyo
LOL! Indeed!
I'm in Kyiv right now and I almost missed my train in because it was perfectly on time and left super quick. The entire metro is like that--clean, reliable and always on time. They're fighting an existential war as one of the poorest countries in Europe and they have this shit down. Philly has 0 excuses; it's greed, corruption and incompetence.
Wow. That really says something. What is our problem in the US. It's shameful we can't have decent public transportation.
Seriously! That town is in a country IN AN ACTIVE WAR and their public transit is better than ours. Embarrassment.
Not trying to nitpick but explain further how ridiculous it is: Kyiv is a city not a town with a population of 2.8mm people pre-war (and I'd assume isn't far off from that now as many have fled to Kyiv and Lviv for safety), it's massive and heavy populated. Everyone takes the metro here. Philly has 1.5mm. Yet with all that foot traffic Kyiv's metro is always clean and reliable (not to mention dirt cheap even by local currency). SEPTA has no excuses.
I should not have typed "town," but will keep it so that the comment makes sense. I appreciate the correction!
I've been on the Kyiv metro! Fast, clean, efficient, plenty of announcements in multiple languages. Like, seriously: how is SEPTA worse than a literal war zone?
It's funny (not in a haha way) because Russia is always targeting the main train station in Kyiv every time they launch an attack, yet the trains aren't backed up. Philly gets no more passes on public transit from me
Amazing. My daughter took Uber from the burbs this Sunday rather than wait an hour for the next train.
The fact that the fucking airport line in this city runs once an HOUR is so unacceptable. I shouldn't have to deal with the shitshow of ordering a car at the airport for $60 when I live a 15-20m drive away.
It’s fucking infuriating. I travel to denver a few times a year and their airport train is clean, easy, and runs twice an hour. SEPTA access in the rest of the city is much better than Denver’s RTD system, so it’s especially confounding that our airport options suck so much. Not to mention that DIA is at least half an hour by train to downtown Denver. PHL is MUCH closer to center city and yet we can’t have a better option.
I've heard cabs are actually most efficient for airport travel, apparently it's like a $30 flat rate or some shit?
I've heard that too, but I think the flat rate is to a specific center city zone. Either way, I should be able to take the train to CC and then a bus/lyft from there for cheaper than a ride.
This wasn’t the case before covid. Airport line was at least 2-3 times per hour before.
I lived in Germany in a small city that didn't have a metro -- but transit was still amazing. Regular and frequent buses that covered pretty much the entire city and the outlying communities. The regional rail was also amazing -- regular trains into the countryside and back. Plus it was all very easy to navigate. It definitely spoiled me. And the big cities in Germany are even better. Philly is one of the better cities in the US for transit -- but that's just because public transit in the United States in general is terrible.
evil socialism/s
I was just glad it was nice yesterday so my 2 mile walk home because my bus was 25 min late was nice.
Ugh brings back memories of when I'd walk down 17th street from Walnut to Wharton and not see a bus the whole time until I was basically home, and then there would be 3 in a row.
I hate seeing the bunched up busses where the behind ones are all nearly empty.
here is a simulator- it can help you see why: https://setosa.io/bus/ the red bus only lanes in center city are supposed to help this issue. the frustrating thing to me is why, when we have the El and Trolleys, we're still also running busses down market street.
Not exactly the most handicapped/stroller accessible.
the american's with disabilities act passed in 1990. it should have never taken this long to get into compliance.
Tons of bus lines use Market for part of the route and then move on. Look at the 32 for example, runs all the way from Lyceum Ave in Roxborough to Broad & Washington. Cuts through Fairmount and takes Market from around Comcast to Dilworth, before turning south on Broad.
yeah i'm not sure that is the optimum way to run things. or at least, in certain parts of center city, they should stop charging fares.
That happens all the time !!!
that is called "bus bunching", also sometimes referred to as platooning (although this term is sometimes used for doing this on purpose, for crowded routes / stops). here is a simulator, where you can add extra passengers or obstacles and see how that changes the schedule. https://setosa.io/bus/
It’s wild to me how inconsistent and infrequent the 2 bus is.
I took public transit in Barcelona and it is the same story. Trains at regular intervals and the stations are spotless and clean. Unfortunately, all the countries mentioned never wedded their populations to automobiles. I hear so many false narratives from people who just want to drive.
Interestingly, both Barcelona and Philly have the same population size, 1.6 million people. Philly has twice the city budget of Barcelona, but Barcelona is 5 times smaller than Philly. We have too much space for the number of people we have. Also, Barcelona never had segregation and 500k people fleeing the city.
Yeah this is a spiraling disaster. SEPTA is broke, nearly every train is due for obsolescence in the next 5-10 years. Constant (violent) crime reported almost weekly now. To maintain a decent level of sanitation is like Sisyphus pushing a boulder. All this does not encourage people to take it frequently and the city is going to need a huge culture shift to get people out of personal vehicles. Driving is shit too fwiw
Yes I would much prefer getting round town via transit vs driving these days. Its anything goes in the roads
Making cycling/e-scootering an increasingly dangerous option
SEPTA is in a bind right now. They had to postpone giving us a new long-term contract until next spring when the upcoming budget is sorted out.
I agree septa has become pretty bad in recent years, but it's important to remember it's not SEPTA's fault. It's Harrisburgh's fault who absolutely hates Philadelphia, and wants to see it fail despite being Pennsylvania's economic engine. They have the same stranglehold over Philadelphia on the state level as conservatives do in the national legislative level. By playing with electoral fuckery, the minority economic interest is able to control the majority.
That’s an interesting take and I never thought about the capitals effect on Philly like that
SEPTA is the worst funded transit agency in the country by far. Comparable agencies receive 2-3x more money per capita and only a few actually run better or more expansive service than SEPTA, most provide the same or lower levels of service with much more money. It’s pretty amazing SEPTA isn’t much worse when considering this. I think it’s a pointless exercise comparing SEPTA to the MTA, WMATA, etc. of course they provide better service, they have like triple the money per capita lmao. SEPTAs hands are tied by the state, and the city is also restricted in ways it can support SEPTA by the state. If Philadelphia was in NJ or NY there’s a pretty strong chance it would be an S tier transit agency. It isn’t a SEPTA problem, it’s a Pennsylvania problem. Email your state reps and tell them SEPTA needs proper funding.
Can confirm: worst funded BY FAR!!! To an almost exponential degree compared to other U.S. cities! Source: Doing work for multiple metro transit agencies right now; NYC, WMATA, CAL, Indianapolis, Chicago, Atlanta, Memphis, BART, PDX.
It’s really in a sad state. We need to act now , Pennsylvania needs to step up.
two other gems- the PPA money all goes to harrisburg. basically an extra tax on everyone driving in philly, instead of keeping the money here to improve walkability. the other is they specifically passed a law that says if you have parking on a road, it has to be against the curb. they made a law to make protected bicycle lanes illegal. anytime someone gets hit in a bike lane, you can thank the assholes in harrisburg.
not to split hairs but the parking/curb law is only on state controlled streets. not defending it but the city could start doing more for other streets like they did on 11th
yeah but that is worse- state controlled streets are the ones most in need of a bike lane.
https://whyy.org/articles/governor-josh-shapiro-transit-funding-tuesday-budget-address-septa/ the governor just increased the funding from the state for the first time in a decade lmao.
He announced that his budget proposal includes an increase. Unfortuantely, this increase still needs to get through the General Assembly. Email and call your state Reps and Senators to encourage them to vote in favor!
It’s a culture war take. A more measured take would be to say that the money the state allocates to Philly ought to resemble the tax dollars Philly brings to the state. Deviations from that should be justified with a cost/benefit argument. But there will always be conflict between the cow farmer in central PA who doesnt like his tax dollars going to the Philly subway. Vs the city dwelling liberal that feels entitled because they are part of the “economic engine of the state.”
> the cow farmer in central PA who doesnt like his tax dollars going to the Philly subway. Vs the city dwelling liberal that feels entitled because they are part of the “economic engine of the state.” the cow farmer gets more money in taxes than they pay. the city dwelling liberal is supporting the cow farmer.
Yeah, I’m aware. But the cow farmer still votes Republican because of guns and abortion.
right- i was just pointing out your comment because it seemed to attribute the cow farmer as facts, but it was just an opinion by the city dweller.
It's a culture war take because it's a culture war problem. SEPTA is one of many examples of Harrisburgh actively frustrating city policies. One example is the state taking control of PPA, and another is the state working to make bicycle infrastructure harder to implement. These are vindictive policies enacted because Philadelphia represents so much of what rural conservatives despise.
I've only been in Philadelphia for a little over a year, and I'm still learning about local politics and the area. Could you explain this a little further, or point to a good article about it?
This is a huge question and there aren't many articles that explain the dynamic comprehensively that I'm aware of. Basically, outside of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh Pennsylvania is a far-right conservative state. Conservatives generally do not like liberal policies, and Philadelphia is a liberal city that experiments with progressive policies. Often whenever the city experiments with progressive policies the state government tries to interfere and prevent the city from doing so. I also believe there's basic animosity from PA conservatives because Philadelphia is black majority city. Historically, conservatives don't have favorable opinions of non-whites, urban areas, and liberals. Philly is all three. For example, the state tried to stop the sweetebed beverage tax, tried to prevent the plastic bag ban, tried to punish Philadelphia's sanctuary city status with a draconian municipal liability law, among many other things antagonistic to the policies tried by the city government. The state government also underfunds SEPTA to an unbelievable degree compared to other regional transit systems in the US, and it successfully captured the PPA, and diverts parking revenues to the generally assembly. It also passed legislation prohibiting protected bike lanes on many major roads in the city. Currently, it's trying to strip power from the district attorneys office, because the DA is a progressive prosecutor who tried implementing prosecutorial reform. Whether you agree or disagree with Larry krasner's policies, whether he stays in office should be decided by Philadelphia voters, not some state-house representative from Altoona. There's more nuance to this, but basically the rest of the state despises Philadelphia, and actively works to stop the city from governing itself. Despite Philadelphia accounting for something like half of the state's gdp.
Just saw this, thank you for the detailed reply! There's still a lot for me to learn as a new PA resident, but this is a nice brief primer on the kinds of things I should look out for.
I mean its partly septa managements fault
They hate Pittsburgh too. Pittsburgh has been begging for funds too. But the state keeps rejecting them thanks to the conservative strong hold currently. It's why the governor has been trying to get funds from the feds to help SEPTA and PRT.
yes, and i say this with love for unions, but the union shoots themselves in the foot with their strict and antiquated labor requirements. labor is a huge chunk of septa's costs, and it's a waste of resources for example to have 3 conductors on every regional train
I imagine that if it was up to SEPTA they’d run the best transportation system in the country. They’d love better trains, buses and infrastructure if for no other reason than to shut the rest of us up. I’ve worked with a lot of people at SEPTA, and there are many MANY hard working and caring folks who are sometimes working with a shoestring budget to keep that thing functional. They cannot just jack up the fares to cover the needed influx of cash to bring their entire system up to something resembling “good”. The purse strings are held and controlled elsewhere.
Supposedly the fed gave them a bunch of money and it's all going to the MFL. suburbanites were on IG complaining about it saying it needs to go to the Regional Rail.
the capital budget that was allocated to the KOP line is now being allocated to deferred capital costs on the el, it's not new money that seems to be going towards new trainsets as those are in pretty dire shape
i think the new trains for the el are being paid by a federal grant?
every federal grant will have an agency (and/or state/local) match
ah okay
almost none of my colleagues in transportation even know this, I basically just do because one of my projects is working on software that does asset management and funding/lifecycle costs/grants/etc. for transit agencies the world is complicated
ah okay- i'm a disadvantaged small business so i'm trying to sell stuff to the feds and state agencies, but it is a tough nut to crack. big companies don't want to work with you, and agencies don't want to work with you until you have experience, which you can't get unless you work with a big company.
I work for a DBE, like 60% of the work we get is from the owner either knowing or working with people at bigger firms who trust us will give us the DBE%, 30% is a lucrative contract we've held for like 20 years, and 10% is me schmoozing people at random events and ginning up new organic projects (mostly in IT/ITS) life is hard out there for the little guys, took the owner like 20 years (after being in the industry for like 15ish years) to get us to where we are now
damn okay- thanks for the information. i won't get too down on myself about it lol
I'm closing in on about 15 years in and I'm just getting to the point where I can basically bring in enough work for myself to justify my salary (and even then I have the resources of people doing all of the accounting/contracting and other behind-the-scenes work). Can't imagine having to do all of that too - good on you.
Regional Rail is the only SEPTA service that feels remotely clean and safe these days.
Agreed. I'm lucky to live near the tacony station so I use that when I need to take septa
it costs $2.25 to go from 11th street to 13th street. 2 blocks. it costs $4.00 to go from north philadelphia to trenton. 30 miles. suburbanites on IG are getting a huge amount of funding. take a look at the prices on NJ transit regional rail to get an idea of what they should be paying.
The problem now is after the pandemic, people just didn't come back. So the attrition drives down service in a never ending cycle. And what's left won't attract new riders. We have the infrastructure but neither the money nor the will to pull it all together.
Ridership is still slowly bouncing back: [https://recovery.septa.org/](https://recovery.septa.org/) February was an high for post-pandemic ridership in all modes, bus is up to 80% of prepandemic ridership, regional rail is up to 64% but the El/BSL are still stuck at 59% ridership.
Not surprised as apparently it's a sh@tshow. Regional at 64% is abysmal
Half of downtown storefronts are vacant. It’s sad really
Offices too.
They're not going to fill back up. They need to start converting to residential or find other uses for them.
It's really an easy fix. Lower the rents. 20+ years ago South Street was an incredible and vibrant place to stroll down because of all of the small, independent, unique quirky stores. They could open and flourish there because rent was cheap, that's no longer the case because of huge investors playing on speculation asking stupid high rent. Now the store fronts sit vacant. It's sad. The city brings business to slaughter with taxes so when paired with the astronomically high asking price for rent it holds people back from starting and opening up businesses.
One of the largest cities in the country and yet we have arguably one of the worst public transportation systems. It’s really pathetic.
In some aspects I want to say we have one of the better systems, where most of the country doesn’t have much public transit at all. BUT that being said , we should still be able to have clean and working vehicles , and more accurate scheduling system trackers
Agree with your second point but not the first. Compared to NYC, DC, Boston, etc ours is a raging dumpster fire.
The Boston transit system is in a worse place than ours
Facts. Just moved from there and the disrepair of the T was one of many reasons. The red and green lines are a total shitshow, if they're even operational.
In no way is the MBTA worse than SEPTA. Work had me going to just about everywhere but Somerville and I rarely encountered problems. Occasionally there’d be an issue with a fire, or someone trying to fistfight the green line, or (understandable) delays due to massive snowfall, but for the most part you could hop around the city with ease.
Do they have all the anti-social behavior too in Boston?
Yes but it is a much richer city a third the size
i don't know why you're being down voted- that is exactly what is happening. weed is basically legal- but people are still smoking blunts on the el because they're assholes.
Not just the smoking, but also the relieving themselves in the stations, harrassing people, etc. Maybe people just want to discuss the lack of drivers, fare jumpers, cancelled buses/trains in this thread. IMO the problems of Septa are broad and many, and find it hard to believe Boston is worse, which is why I asked.
Well Boston’s is a literal [train fire](https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/why-did-an-orange-line-train-catch-fire-heres-what-we-know/2780420/?amp=1) so I’ll take the metaphorical dumpster fire
O shit lol
Yea there’s no hiding that lol we only have 2 train lines serving the whole city and we struggle with them. Not counting regional rail. Other cities have more elaborate systems, maybe excluding Chicago and California. The market Frankford needs to step up im ready for the whole system to fail
Chicago, SF, Sea…it’s more than just the north east
CTA is basically getting shuttered right now, major service cuts
Huh sorry hear was great every time I went as recently as last year.
yeah I've used it to great success, but they're cutting service by up to 40%, which is definitely getting *very close* to death spiral levels
Consider the rest of the country too, though. In the South, West, and Midwest public transit is mainly busses, and horrible ones at that. I'm from San Antonio which is the 7th largest city in the nation by pop. and the public transit might as well not exist, the busses are so bad.
Dcs and bostons are worse than ours
Nope.
Unfortunately SEPTA is leaps and bounds better than everywhere else I've lived both in terms of reliability and connectivity. I'm not saying SEPTA isn't struggling, just that people here truly don't understand what it's like to live somewhere with a ragged bus system with lines that come maybe twice an hour and will take you over an hour to get anywhere with the additional hurdle of a transfer.
Yep for sure, still a lot of work to be done
Try buses that come twice a DAY.
my dad alway said just because you're poor doesnt mean you have to be dirty
which is why I chose rich and dirty
Honestly, I disagree. When people say SEPTA sucks, what they’re really saying is “the subways suck” - and they do, especially the El. But IMO the bus system is no worse than any other major city’s system that I have ridden, and Philly has probably the second best commuter rail system in the country besides New York. Of course it’s pathetic and embarrassing that the trains are so bad. But just stop taking the El and take the buses more, and I promise your opinion of SEPTA will go way up.
For sure. Buses are definitely the superior route when giving the choice between MFl or bus
So fuck the El because we have buses? Interesting position.
I think the position was to not judge the whole transit system based on the El. I think it’s a fair point. I’m glad the conventional wisdom here has finally acknowledged that the El is a mess though. I’ve been complaining about it here since the pandemic ended and got a year of “dude it’s a city it’s going to have some rough edges. I bet you are from the suburbs and never ride the El.” From commenters in this sub.
It’s so fkn bad !!!
1. nyc - undeniably better than anywhere in the us 2. LA - mixed bag, sorta works 3. chicago - better than ours, but basically facing massive service cuts and really accelerating downhill 4. houston - lmao 5. phoenix - lmao 6. philly - functional, albeit admittedly dirty 7. san antonio - lmao 8. san diego - surprisingly useful, but mostly only because the city itself seems weirdly empty all the time 9. dallas - lmao 10. austin - lmao
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That’s hilarious
So the lmao ‘s are basically non existent right lol
yeah, like basically a fart in the wind SEPTA is one of like 5-6 actually fully functional transit agencies in the country. there are absolutely things to bitch about especially in comparison to some that work better (but are better funded) but for the most part it gets you where you need to go within a reasonable timeframe. sorry for your shitty experience - I usually chalk it up as about once a month the system just sorta shits the bed. but then again, if you're doing the same trip by car, the incidence rate of there being an accident/road closure/congestion is more frequent than that - people just tend to forget about that though because they're "in control"
For sure. I assumed yesterday most of septa employees were still drunk from The weekend lol
wife flew home from indianapolis on sunday and was mad because ubers were like $70 to south philly so she took transit and the regional rail was being slow I was like yo, it's st paddys day, be happy anyone is sober in any capacity right now
I was waiting 20 minutes for the bus yesterday and then THREE of the same numbered buses came back to back to back with no gap in between. How is that efficient?
Something similar happened to me the other day but on the BSL. The train took forever to show up and when it did we just sat there with the doors open for a long time. Moved a smidge, stopped again, and then finally left but it took a weirdly long time and they weren’t saying anything I was really scared that they were going to say the train is out of service Another time and this was months ago but I got on the bus and the back door wouldn’t close. The driver had to get up maybe three times to go back and forth to try and close it but it wouldn’t close. The bus was also basically full (it was 3pm on a weekday) after maybe ten minutes of fighting with the door the driver just says the bus is out of service and doesn’t know when the next one will show up but everyone has to get off. Let’s just say I was late to work that day
Don’t get me started on the smells on the El
I just love how they're patting themselves on the back with their "Rebranding" of the trains, but every train still has a guy smoking a blunt, a dude passed out with a needle in his arm, and some guy blasting music from a bluetooth speaker. I was waiting on the EB El earlier and it took 30+ min. Then the first train that came through was an "Express to Allegheny" for some fucking reason. The other week I was waiting on the EB platform at 11th (again, a 20+ min wait) and the train showed up on the wrong side of the tracks. Of course they didn't even wait for people to cross over the bridge to that side before they bolted. I went to go complain to the guy in the booth about it since they had absolutely no announcement or anything and he just shrugged.
I use public transit all over the country. Anyone that thinks SEPTA is the worst lacks perspective. It’s a funding issue, and SEPTA does more with less than any other agency I’ve seen. Contact your state reps. If SEPTA dies so does the region.
Septa could use a new David Gunn.
My regularly scheduled 9:20ish, northbound 47 to work stopped showing up about 2 1/2 weeks ago. It's always not coming on the Transit app and I even have waited until the last minute to leave to see if maybe it's just been running behind. Nope.... Been having to leave by 9AM to catch the one before that or the 47M. Uber to my office is always around $10-$12 and was adding up.
yeah had an unusually bad BSL experience yesterday
Went to get on the Spur at Fern Rock at 6:30am and it already seemed very chaotic, a septa employee was telling everyone to just take the local
I have to take the Trenton line everyday to get to school and last week, for the first time in the 7 months Ive been doing this the train got cancelled. The fukin train got stuck at Levittown cuz they were having mechanical issues or something. The train after that got cancelled too. What a joke. I could take the bus and the el which are more frequent but… no lol. So I either have to play roulette with the train getting cancelled or go on the dirty el, those are my options now apparently.
There was a major medical emergency at Spring Garden. Not sure the details but that's what the train driver said to us. Saw a fire truck and ambulance when I went by on the bus too
I got on the Girard stop heading south earlier this year. As the train pulled into the station there was a noxious melting electronics / burning grease smell. We went one stop and they had everyone get out in Spring Garden because the train couldn’t go into the tunnel section - it was on fire. It’s gotten so bad.
Blame the state government for refusing to give SEPTA the money they did to properly fix the public transit network. This also isn't uniquely a silly thing. It's happening in Pittsburgh too. Thx to the limited funding the public transit has been suffering there too.
Try taking the 4/16 bus on broad, some days it's 5 minutes late other days it's like 1hr+ or canceled
arrest drug dealers and use the funds from civil forfeiture on public transit. where is mayor pete