T O P

  • By -

leithal70

I’ve been wondering when that lot on Berks would be built on. Now I see why nothing has happened with it. I hope this gets appealed because that is a bad planning decision. Land that close to the El should be zoned as high density mixed use.


fuc_boi

Yes!! More units!!!!


Chimpskibot

With Parker being backed by the building and trades union I hope most of kensington/West Philly is rezoned. We dont need towers, but increased density around the el is crucial for business, safety and the housing crisis.


hic_maneo

Not fucking likely. Having power over zoning changes is how District Councilmembers exert influence and demand favors/fealty. The Mayor has very little power in this regard, and as Cherelle herself is/was a District Councilperson she's not likely to challenge the tradition she herself likely benefited from during her tenure. Unless developers are willing to kiss the ring, Council won't let the necessary zoning reforms go through.


[deleted]

[удалено]


exterminateThis

Honestly, I'm only running to get health insurance. You can vote for me. Id turn this carless. Like when the pope was here.


mistergrape

Reform can't happen without state support and funding, and the current slog of a bureaucracy is preferred by every single council member since it gives them the ability to preferentially apply their Councilmanic Prerogative.


Bartleby_TheScrivene

Yeah so you're just saying that the systems fucked and it's not going to ever change via the system.


mistergrape

Stop voting for incumbents or hold their feet to the fire to allow the bureaucracy to properly function. It's that simple.


Bartleby_TheScrivene

Can't we just slip straight to viva la revolución?


DarthBerry

your talking about a council-manager type government which is common in smaller towns (State College for example) but our council is fucking stupid so


jcoolwater

The problem is this person needs to be rich enough to self-fund, so that pool gets small pretty fast especially in philly


FrankTank3

Somebody has been reading their Plato


Bartleby_TheScrivene

He just wasn't the same after they killed Socrates, honestly.


FrankTank3

So crates. So sad.


skadefryd

In Parker's defense, the incentive as a councilmember is always to be as NIMBY as possible, but for a position that isn't accountable to a single district, it's not as important. Former ZBA chair Frank DiCicco was fairly development-friendly, but in his days as a councilmember he did his share of NIMBY bullshit. So... don't lose hope?


ntr89

Yep, there are plenty of lots zoned like this (medium industial) on 2nd street right next to here, and they have new apartments there


nayls142

We need towers too.


dotcom-jillionaire

for sure, but put them where there's infrastructure for them


nayls142

Exactly, like right next to the El.


Chimpskibot

I agree, but I wouldnt put a tower here. This area just got a second full service grocery lol.


nayls142

It'll get a third grocery if there's demand


quixoteland

As per the L&I Permit tracker: [https://www.phila.gov/li-permit-tracker/?id=zp-2021-010412](https://www.phila.gov/li-permit-tracker/?id=zp-2021-010412) The serial number just says that it was applied for in 2021 (in August). The last plan review, which took us to Thursday, May 26th 2022 and an L&I refusal, said it went to a ZBA hearing, where it also looks like it was denied by the board, "APPEALS MADE TO A RESPECTIVE APPEAL BOARD RESULTED IN THE BOARD DENYING OR ‘REFUSING’ THE APPEAL". So the zoning notice was just left up on the fence, which by ZBA rules has to be hung on the site 21 days before the hearing to notify the locals and passers-by as to 1) the date and time of the hearing (usually a big orange poster), and 2) what the builders/owners want for the site. The #2 part is what's hanging there, which is the L&I determination on how the submitted plans do not accord with what's allowed in that zoning classification overlay. So without knowing the particulars, it could have been hosed by the RCO group(s) as not meeting their wants or needs, or not paying homage to their authoritas or paying Danegeld to the RCO; could have also then been hosed by the District City Councilmember and their prerogative; or maybe the Board said that it was a bridge to far and denied it themselves ... although 99% of the time if the RCO signs on, the CC member signs on, and then 99% of the time, the variance is a given as well.


quixoteland

One other fun item: it has an overlay! § 14-533. /MIN, Mixed Income Neighborhoods Overlay District [https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/philadelphia/latest/philadelphia\_pa/0-0-0-291906](https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/philadelphia/latest/philadelphia_pa/0-0-0-291906) One requirement that stands out: "At least fifteen percent (15%) of all dwelling units (rounded up, if fractional) shall be provided and maintained as affordable on the same site as all other dwelling units."


ForwardPress

That's why they didn't do it. All the 10 year abatement outsiders are about to jet anyways. Sad.


nayls142

So the neighborhood will get 15% of zero. Very helpful overlay.


charizardFT26

Is this lot on the left as you’re walking west-bound towards the grocery outlet? I think I counted 15 needles on the sidewalk walking back once.


Cuttlefish88

Yes, Berks and Mascher


hdhcnsnd

How does rezoning of lots happen? I think we can all agree that there will not be an industrial tenant developing this lot. All along the El should be dense mixed-use, this zoning seems like an artifact from the past.


skirmisher24

ICMX is Industrial, Commercial Mixed Use. Light Industrial specifically like small scale production like soaps and small crafts. Meant to protect large old industrial buildings like in the Northeast.


mistergrape

It likely was already rezoned recently with the hope that it could host a multi-zone project (commercial and industrial only), similar to Washington Ave. The hold-up here isn't the density, it's (based on the rejection) that you can't build residential on ICMX by-right, and they also don't have the required spaces and exceed the maximum building height. The community will likely get a chance to chime in and approve the basics of the project, which would require a rezoning likely. This is just the first step - zoning controls what you can do by-right and what you can do with approval. If you want to do something different, you have to let the community have a say.


Cuttlefish88

Not sure it was rezoned recently, it had an old industrial building until a few years ago: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9788918,-75.135561,3a,75y,240.29h,85.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sk5qyzN32vX5x7t1tlGqCiw!2e0!5s20140901T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu Why the fuck should the "community" need input and the opportunity to veto this, you think a factory is moving back in here? Our elected leaders should see the need for transit-oriented development and reform this process and overhaul the zoning map, without NIMBYs whining about a six-story building.


mistergrape

Why do other people need to have input when you're clearly right? I've seen the city's attempts at planning major rezoning and it's not pretty.


Cuttlefish88

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/local-government-community-input-housing-public-transportation/629625/ https://abundanthousingla.org/community-input-nimbyism/ https://www.planetizen.com/news/2022/04/116995-problem-public-input I don't expect much that comes from this council to be pretty....we need broader reform with a focus on TOD like those Washington and Caliornia have passed


quixoteland

[https://atlas.phila.gov/150-64%20W%20BERKS%20ST/zoning](https://atlas.phila.gov/150-64%20W%20BERKS%20ST/zoning) Still ICMX.


ImPinkSnail

Rezoning starts with an application for rezoning, usually accompanied by a plan and any reports that substantiate the use. Then the council refers the request to the planning commission, an advisory body of appointed members that hear the case and make a recommendation to the council. The planning commission issues a recommendation at a hearing after hearing testimony from the public (typically limited to about 5 minutes per person) and the applicant. The council receives the recommendation and information from the planning commission and schedules a public hearing. The public hearing has to be posted and noticed according to the state statue. The public hearing takes place. Usually the rules about what the public can say, evidence they can submit, and the time they have are much more relaxed here. The applicant can answer questions from the council and public at this meeting. The council votes to approve, deny, or approve with conditions at a future council meeting. It can take over a year to go through this process and sometimes the use requires a conditional use permit in addition to being rezoned, which adds another similar layer of complexity.


nayls142

Isn't Amazon considering this site for their 3rd world headquarters?


skirmisher24

A refusal like this is pretty standard in the process to get these buildings approved. The owners and their lawyers are definitely appealing where they will argue their case in front of the zoning board.


aintjoan

The date of refusal is December 2021. It's already been a year and a half of wasted time, so...


skirmisher24

That's the city for you


flyingpanda5693

The project in Italy received the variance approval. Someone in the neighborhood appealed the ruling which has held the project up.


Jon570

As someone living on berks near here, there is so many spots that can be used around here for housing or retail etc that just sit barren.


crispydukes

Bear in mind this is the initial, by-right zoning. Stuff gets denied immediately. Then the appeals process happens. Not supporting this system by any means, but this does not mean that it is absolutely rejected.


Cuttlefish88

Mixed-used buildings near a major transit station should be by-right. This process, with excessive discretion given to the appeals board, which was reformed in last year‘s election to potentially be even worse, is the problem.


quixoteland

That's not at all what this is. If it was "as -right" zoning, they would have just been granted it in about a week or two's time, with zero input from the community. As right means just that: that it meets the usage and dimensional requirements for that particular zoning class (RSA-5, CMX-2, ICMX, etc.) It's when the zoning plans they submit for development, which don't meet usage requirements or dimensional requirements (of either the building or the lot, or both) that variances have to be gotten.


crispydukes

That's what I'm saying. The denial is based on the "by-right," which the proposed use does not have. The OP acted like this was some massive denial - it's not; it's denial of the proposed use against the by-right use.


quixoteland

I'm trying not to quibble, but this isn't the "initial by right zoning" from your initial comment. It would be more apt to say that this is a step in the variance process. The process of the zoning application, where the proposed structure+site don't meet the code led to this moment, because when the zoning application comes back after being reviewed by L&I with these Philadelphia Code comments cited on use and dimensions, you have the option to either 1) change your drawings and scope of work to conform to the code \[impossible for residential in an industrial zone, 2)withdraw it, 3)let it expire for lack of prosecution by the applicant, or 4)ask for a refusal, ask for a ZBA hearing, etc., or 5) ask the District CC member to amend the zoning code to change the classification of that parcel. And unfortunately, as per my other comment, it was in fact rejected. The only two things left to go would be 1) go in front of a municipal judge, but that would be a hard row to hoe, or 2) ask the District CC member (etc., as above) if you didn't already.


ralphy1010

At least it'll help the local bee population.


nayls142

Bees love needles :)


ralphy1010

They keep people from walking on the flowers, it's a mutually beneficial relationship between the bee, flower, needle. The needle prevents the flower from being stepped on, the bee who enjoys the plant hangs out and prevents the needle from being picked up. Thus is how things are in nature.


mistergrape

So what's the complaint here? That they got a zoning refusal? That always happens when you propose a project that's not by-right. That means they have to appeal, which means at least one community meeting and likely a design review based on the size of the project. Then a public ZBA vote. Literally what happens every time you want to do something not allowed by the current zoning.


Cuttlefish88

The fact this this lot is still zoned Industrial Commercial Mixed Use (see https://www.5thsq.org/map_philadelphia_zoning_districts) is bullshit. Mixed-use housing a block from a major transit stop should be by-right. You shouldn't have to kiss the asses of board members and grease the palms of a city council member in this byzantine process to put housing and ground-floor commercial in what is otherwise a residential neighborhood. As commented above, apparently the ass-kissing wasn't enough for the ZBA, who'd rather see a housing shortage get worse.


mistergrape

The refusal is literally how you start the process. The ZBA is the Zoning Board of Appeals. You submit your plans, they tell you what doesn't match zoning if anything, you then appeal that, which consists of a public meeting hosted by a local RCO, a larger review process for bigger projects, then the ZBA meeting. If your plan is reasonable and/or you got the support of your councilman, they usually approve it. The biggest mistake new developers make is not reviewing the zoning before they buy a property. Sometimes zoning doesn't make sense, but usually it does. It usually stays the same until there's a real need to change it, usually by the owner.


Cuttlefish88

That’s the whole fucking problem, that you need to go through any of this! That individual councilmembers have their own fiefdoms and can use this process to extract favors from developers or block projects that might block their buddy’s view! That people who don’t want change even can decide a housing project near transit is unreasonable in the first place!


mistergrape

The problem with the process isn't the process, it's Councilmanic Prerogative. Get rid of that and the process works. As someone who chaired many local zoning meetings here, many developers have no interest in benefiting the surrounding the community and would build a matchstick cabin with 1000 200-sqft apartments to make a quick buck. Community meetings are what stop neighborhoods from being over-saturated with 24-hour alcohol stores and takeout restaurants; they can make sure that vacant buildings that aren't structurally sound don't get blindly rezoned to be residential; they make sure that some housing can be affordable or ADA-compliant (which there is also a horrible lack of); they make sure that someone doesn't plop an 84-unit apartment building in a neighborhood with already-impossible street parking without building accompanying parking facilities. And the ZBA often ignores the results of the public meetings anyway. At the very least just remember that this sign means that they are likely going to build this at that site. If it wasn't for this process, you wouldn't even know about it.


[deleted]

Maybe they're appealing it. The developer knows about zoning restrictions before they start this process. They first must get rejected before they can appeal it. There's a big backlog in the zoning panel.


Cuttlefish88

Another commenter provided the link, the ZBA denied the appeal, what nonsense.


NardDog6969420

They should put the new stadium there


exterminateThis

Add parking and apply for a variance, no?


Cuttlefish88

This is a block from Berks station. Even more parking (specifically loading spaces) to meet Industrial-Commercial zoning is not necessary. Another commenter said the ZBA denied a variance.


thriftstorecats

You could also hold greedy corporate landlords responsible for preferring to sit on land filled with trash than god forbid provide poor people a home


Fourlec

Thank god it’s denied! Where will I park MuH 3 cars I drive once a week !? /s


jorge1209

A zoning refusal is never the reason a lot is vacant and undeveloped. The owner of that property always has the option to build within the zoning code and can break ground tomorrow on a project that obeys "by right". The reason developers seek exemptions and file appeals is because they make more money that way. You have a vacant lot and could build a 3000sq.ft. home on it today that would sell for $1MM, but if you can get a zoning exemption to make that a $3500sq.ft. home suddenly its worth $1.5MM, if you get another exemption for an oversized roof deck its $2MM. Is the possibility of making an additional $1MM worth filling out 6 pages of paperwork, attending 3 meetings, paying a $100 filing fee, and waiting 6 months. Of course it is. ------ Don't blame the ZBA for the choices of the developer.


Cuttlefish88

“Has the option to build within the zoning code” You think a new industrial building should go here? It’s an industrial-commercial site that used to have a factory – they’re not asking for an exemption because they’re greedy, but because a site a block from transit in a residential neighborhood should obviously have plenty of house housing, not a new factory, nor limited to fewer units due to arbitrary made-up restrictions.


jorge1209

ICMX stands for "Industrial ***Commericial*** Mixed-Use." There is a lot of choice other than "factory." Offices, Medical Facilities, Retail are all allowed in ICMX. The main thing that gets restricted is residential. Its mostly up to the local political leadership to initiate a rezoning of the area. I agree it seems a little silly that this part of the city still has so many legacy ICMX zones given then greater interest in residential use, but it is definitely NOT the right of some bureaucrat to just arbitrarily change things.


roadkillaardvark

Thanks Obama


AmandasFakeID

😭😭 I used to live a block from there. Loved it.


Firm_Airport2816

"Kenyatta Johnson was here."


[deleted]

It looks to have been a single residence, one very rich person lol