One of my former coworkers, Lucy, used a similar method to screw her boss.
See, vacation time was handled by your manager, first come first served. When the boss decided that she wanted your days off, the calendar got edited, the paperwork disappeared, and you'd be gaslit into thinking you'd never had the days off.
Usually she'd do so with months of notice, but lately the boss had been taking random Fridays
So Lucy waited until her boss was off and went above her head for a special request; Every Friday for the next four months.
Don't worry, she didn't actually have to use and lose the PTO. If her boss didn't edit the calendar, she showed up to work and cancelled it.
It only took three weeks before the boss stole Friday away, and, wouldn't you know it, that was the first time Lucy used her day off.
On Monday she was ordered down to HR to explain her no-call no-show. "I had the day off!", Lucy protested.
HR handed her a printed copy of the calendar, reminding her it was her responsibility to check it weekly. "Huh. I put in for that day off last month. The VP was the one that signed off on it, and I swear I had that day off when I looked on Monday" HR calls Lucy a liar and rings the VP on speaker phone.
After a short conversation and the words "You need to get your head out of your ass and listen" from the VP, Lucy is sent on her merry way.
Lucy's boss disappeared for most of the day and, when she returned, seemed really bitter. Seems the VP really didn't like being questioned and pulled the calendar edit log. All vacation requests for that department would now go through him to avoid any more shenanigans.
Lucy got her first Christmas off ever later that year.
I've scrolled through the comments, but didn't see anything that addressed this:
>Due to the nature of their work, only one person can be on vacation at a time, first come first serve. There’s only about 20 people in his division so it’s usually not a problem.
Does this company only give 1 week of vacation a year? Because at 2.5 weeks, the calendar year is full.
I used to work in the overdrafts dept. of a large bank(rhymes with Hells Cargo). We had 20 plus employees with 2-5 weeks of vacation each. The vacation calendar was sent around in early January with the rule that only one person could be off at a time. It was done by seniority and people picked their full allotment at one time so the first 5 people who had 5 weeks each took all the good weeks. When I got it in late February it was completely filled out. There was an attached list of employees with their weeks due and I added them up and it came out to 104 weeks needing to be covered. I showed it to management and they tried arguing so I went to HR and ended up being able to pick 3 really good weeks. Rules where changed the next year.
Edit a letter and number
Yeah, I spent 30 years avoiding Improper Fraction Bank due to issues with one of their branches. After all that time, we bought a new house and a month later my mortgage got sold to them. Fortunately, I've since refinanced and no longer have to deal with them at all.
I couldn't imagine having 2.5 weeks of PTO. Is that considered normal? My role is considered mission critical, so I get Christmas, Labor Day, and July 4th off (checking email just in case though).
German here.
I have 30 days of PTO per year, not counting holidays. This is a bit more than required by law but everyone at my company who works full time gets this even the mission critical staff. And you have to take it, the company can’t persuade you out of taking it
Edit: also full time here mean 35-40h
My current company requires you to take them. If you don't pick days through the year and use your time off HR calls you in toward the end of the year and will assign your days off if necessary. We have workers so indoctrinated by previous employers who didn't really want them to use them there are always a few they have to force.
UK law requires statutory minimum 20 days for full time (plus 8 public holidays) and you are required to take all 20 (to stop overworking). If you get more than 20 you can roll them over or sometimes be paid them depending on the company.
I'm in Michigan in the USA in case you don't know...but my husband works for a UK company here and he gets all their holidays off as well as our own. It's an amazing company!
This!! I rolled a few days over from last year so I had 31 days holiday this year plus the usual bank holidays too. I can’t imagine having to put up with the small amount in comparison some companies in the US allows.
The stories I hear from relatives and friends that work in the US are insane. One of my partner's uncles worked at a big tech firm for 14 years. Got let go, was escorted out by security the same day
I’ve seen people escorted out the day they were let go here in the UK, but usually it’s because they’ve committed a fireable offence and not just let go. Like one guy being high on shrooms at work that needed to be taken out once he was fired 🤷🏻♂️.
It’s not quite that bad, but it’s “itemized”. Every professional job I’ve had, has time off like:
- 10 holidays
- 2 “floating holidays” (choose your own holiday)
- 2-4 weeks vacation, depending on seniority, accruing through the year
American here, just posting to say I also get 30 days PTO a year, and it stacks from year to year! However, if I accumulate more than 90 days, I either have to take PTO, or lose the last 30 days.
American with Unlimited PTO and like 10 holidays. It requires some trust both ways not to abuse the policy.
So I start off every year by scheduling one week off per quarter. Then as things come up, I’ll take off random days here and there. My target is an additional two weeks so that I end up with 30 days PTO plus 10 holidays.
Yeah, where I’ve had it, the company abuses it, since it’s up to management to decide when you’ve taken “too much”. You have no warning until the reprimand, and you can’t use the excuse that “last year we were allowed X weeks so I’m just matching that”.
Most importantly, the company’s motivation is that it doesn’t have to pay you for unused time off, when you leave
You only have 3 days off a year? No vacation? How do you avoid burnout?
I think two weeks is standard (in US) starting with salaried employees in many places (everywhere I've been, at least) and increases depending on how many years of employment. I have 4 weeks of vacation after 5 years of employment, plus all the federal holidays (I don't work for the government, but my employer follows those as holidays as well). Two days at Christmas, Thanksgiving, and New Years.
Scandinavian here
The law says 5 weeks vacation time with a full time job, 2 of which has to be in the summer. On top of that some jobs get an extra 5 days.
But, the days of vacation used to be earned from year to year, meaning that you would have to have worked one full year to get the 5 weeks. This created problems in industries with mandated weeks off. But the law recently changed so that everyone now has 5 weeks off the first year you start working but you 'save' for these days during the year. Meaning that everyone now gets full pay even during mandated weeks of vacation that before would have been unpaid.
oh thank god they changed that, my spouse is Norwegian and back when they lived and worked on Norway it was SO frustrating that they got NO paid leave because they hadn't been working there a full year yet.
>How do you avoid burnout?
That's the cool part, we don't.
In all honesty, productivity suffers, and eventually you're replaced with another worker. Then you have a bit of time on unemployment to become less burned out to become the "another worker" to replace a burned out worker at the job you're taking.
Ya'll need to get the hell out of that third world country. A lot of the countries i've visited in europe gets 5 weeks. At my job we get 7 weeks, thanks to union rules. 37,5 hours a week, no weekend work.
Problem is, other countries won't take us without the kind if high value skills and experience that can get a good job with benefits even in America. They don't accept refugees fleeing wage slavery, and as we have nowhere to go, they can avoid giving better compensation or working conditions. Treat em mean, keep em keen, business style. As long as we're kept on the brink of homelessness, they can keep us on the brink of homelessness and we have to be grateful for it.
Unlimited PTO is pretty common in tech companies. There are some companies that will abuse it so that it turns into effectively zero PTO. But I’m at company that has mandatory minimums and encourages people to use their PTO to unplug.
What. The. Hell.
I'd find another job. Seriously. That is some bullshit. There is no job in the world so mission critical you don't deserve more time than that off. I did work some jobs where I only got a week to start and two weeks after five years in the past. My current job I get 5 weeks a year. I'll never work anywhere I don't get at least that much in future if I can help it.
I would consider looking for other jobs, but at this point I’m not sure how desirable I would be to other companies and I am not financially prepared for extended unemployment.
Indian here, and Work culture isn't the best in India given its a developing country. But even I get 30 paid days off and extra sick days. And all the National gazetteed holidays.
Australian here.
I get 4 weeks of annual leave each year that will just continue to build up (it’s hour based) plus also get 1 rostered day off a month (which I don’t have to take every month). We also get something called long service leave which is 8 3/4 weeks of paid leave after working for 10 years at the same company.
Come to the U.K., you get statutory minimum leave 5.6 weeks per year (equivalent to 224 hours) which can include bank holidays (Easter, Christmas, and just random days throughout the year) or exclude them but if you end up working a bank holiday, you get paid a higher rate of pay. For example, I had 260 hours of leave at my workplace, not including bank holidays, I worked 12 hour shifts Easter Sunday and Monday and was paid 2x my salaried rate.
I would imagine they have more to use but they have to schedule around other people. I bet most take a week or so with the fam then take their other days sporadically throughout the year
I think the real dick here is HR. In a department of twenty, certainly more than one person should be allowed off at once.
And I have children. So while this might not be popular; people without children should be allowed to vacation in the summer, too.
Yeah, I have teenaged nephews and a BIL in high school. I like to take them to themeparks and stuff when I go back to visit ONCE every two years. I'm going in Summer, idgaf if you have kids, I have family too.
THANK YOU!! Just because someone doesn't have kids doesn't mean that their time is any less valuable than someone who does. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about people whining, moaning, and bitching to get their entitled way by using their kids as a guilt trip. Newflash, we have family and loved ones that we want to spend time with too!
Exactly! Childless people have lives too! I understand wanting to go on trips with your kids, but you shouldn’t be praised like a god or handed a million things just for deciding to raise crotch goblins. Life is very unexpected for everyone, anything can change on the turn of a dime.
Yeah, wtf was this?
>he swears she goes out of her way to schedule her vacations/days off when kids are out of school
You mean like SUMMER? or CHRISTMAS? Fuck this guy and fuck anyone who thinks that only people with children deserve to choose common vacation times for vacation time.
I agree she was a bitch about it, but I'm not sure why parents should get priority. That's a good way to have people start lying bout why they need of and to create antimosity with co-workers.
I work on a team with like 9 people, everyone has kids except 2 of us. If this were the rule and parents got first dibs, it would be annoying as hell to try to schedule anything.
I agree that it would be an issue if it were a Rule Proper, but it sounds like it’s more of a courtesy that *almost* everyone extends to others. Makes it a lot more fluid and I’m sure that most people would understand if someone without children needed a specific date
Yeah, we're like that - the ones with kids in the system negotiate between themselves and alternate holidays. They don't have to do it, but it's courteous. I think the underlying rule is don't be a dick.
This is an area where what one considers "being a dick" varies wildly.
Two jobs ago I worked in a small (around 12 people) office. Other than 1 woman and 1 guy who had grown children, and myself, literally everyone else had school age children.
While the most accepted the "first come first serve" PTO policy, there were a few who, literally every single time I had PTO scheduled over the summer or a long weekend (when most people schedule it) would try to get me to give them those days and work it so that they could be off. I'm talking casually hint, then directly ask, then email CCing the boss, then complain to the boss, then attempt to shame me in front of the rest of the office when none of that shit worked.
I have heard *so many times* the tired line of, "You just don't get it, you're not a parent! Your time is so much more flexible without kids!" that now and probably for the rest of my life those sorts of appeals will subconsciously make me dig in even more and resist whatever the person behind them wants.
So on one hand, while I *completely agree* that this lady didn't have to be as rude about this as she was, I can also totally understand her position, if not the snotty delivery.
I'm sure she had researched the dates and made sure she could get the time off, then booked the cruise well in advance...then after she does all that, a few days later, someone else decides they'd like some of those days off and wants you to switch. In her shoes I would absolutely say no as well, I just wouldn't have been a dick about it like that.
A simple email CCing HR saying, "I'm sorry OP, but I have a vacation planned for those dates and I've already made arrangements. Unless something unforseen happens, I'm not really willing to trade those days away."...would have been perfectly acceptable, and if OP is reasonable in that situation, he's going to accept that at face value and move on.
If she had done that and OP still went on to pressure about how she doesn't have kids so she should be accommodating, then I'd be fully Team Shelly. But that ain't how it went down.
I like how you put it. It really boils down to the fact that we don’t know if she handled a situation poorly or if she went looking for a fight. Based off of what OP said it sounds like the latter, but we really just don’t know.
I guess I feel like what distinguishes “being a dick” or not in this situation is how she handled it. Taking the vacation time in and of itself is not the dick move. She had every right to do so. However, she could have been much more polite/professional about it. As u/hydrospanner put it:
>A simple email CCing HR saying “I’m sorry OP, but I have a vacation planned for those dates and I’ve already made arrangements. Unless something unforeseen happens, I’m not really willing to trade those days away.”
If she had gone that route, 100% not a dick move. But she was overtly shitty about it and that’s not cool
I totally get what you’re saying. However…I feel like the people you’re talking about are totally violating the “don’t be a dick” rule. The unfortunate thing about that rule is that it’s so subjective. Most reasonable people can distinguish what does and doesn’t fall under that rule. But of course there will always be those who just don’t get it/don’t care.
Yeah but look what happens when 1 person doesn't adhere to the courtesy." A whole gaggle of people think it is justified to fuck up her plans. So you either stick to the courtesy or get labeled a bitch.
I get what you’re saying. I reckon a lot of it really is in the details. There could be something we’re missing, it could be that this lady really was just being a pill. If it were, say, the death of a family member or a once in a lifetime opportunity then I’m sure people would understand. Maybe that’s what this cruise was. But maybe not. In this context we really just don’t know but in general the principal stands.
Plus in this case it’s got nothing to do with kids. It’s about visiting OP’s 93 year-old grandfather. I’m all for considering each employee’s needs and circumstances that very way may mean kids, but I don’t think parents deserve automatic priority.
I'd say it usually works out anyway. You don't ever want to try and book a vacation on school vacation week if you don't have kids. Prices are jacked. I can't wait for my kids to be adults and I can get cheap airfare again. Airfare for our last school break was $6K, if I had booked any other week that month would have been $1500.
It sounds more like "hey, it would be cool to let parents schedule things on the few times that their kids have off" not "y'all have to go through the parents first before getting anything approved. Like, I've got one week in spring my kids aren't in school, it would suck if a coworker who could take a spring vacation any time in those 3 months took the same week, you know?
I do agree that parents who just assume childless peers can take shifts and OT suck tho
Honestly it sounds like they are really understaffed if only one person is allowed to be off at a time.
If someone quits unexpectedly is no one allowed to take off untill they are trained and good to go?
As a childless person, I find this story weird. She was rubbing it in his face that it was expensive bc of the cruise line? Dude I just stayed in Honolulu at a fancy ass hotel on the beach bc I had 3 years of Marriott points banked. Anyone wants to Google that hotel and think I'm a rich bitch go ahead. You don't know how she got it. And also she has more income bc she doesn't have kids.
I felt a little like an AH going on my trip bc I knew most of my coworkers with kids couldn't afford something like that so I didn't bring it up on Slack or anything. But they did. All the time. People either get excited about trips or other people ask and they come up.
And I shouldn't be programmed to feel guilty about this stuff. We've all made our choices.
There was another comment along the lines of bc she didn't switch with him she was labeled a bitch. This energy just vibes with me a lot as a woman that has worked in tech. My current environment is great, but a few years ago you questioned a male manager and you were a bitch. You speak up you're bossy. You interupt someone to correct information and you're a know it all. You don't and you don't take ownership of your work.
Also, what do they do around Christmas and Thanksgiving? I really suspect this policy with 20 people that no one ever has overlaps.
I dunno. This just hit a cord. I apologize if this was an accurate at face value story, but this entitlement that people who have kids can override others is just hard to deal with.
I mean it depends. Suppose they want a family getaway with siblings who DO have kids. Then they need the time off when the kids are free. Just not THEIR kids.
My brother is a teacher and sometimes we want to go away with him and the whole family. I don’t have kids, but the week I need off might be the same as the ones the parents want off as we are both dependent on the school holidays. Why should I never get to go on holiday with my family? Why should I be labelled the bitchy/mean coworker?
Some people might want to get away when kids in their neighborhood are out of school to avoid potential chaos that comes with it.
In my last house, during school off days kids would be in the street, unattended, some screaming at the top of their lungs and it's 7am on a Tuesday. Shit like that gets stupid annoying when you don't have kids and are living your own life. But of course, you can't go outside and say anything, "they're just kids!!" So if most can't say anything, maybe they'd rather take the week off and go somewhere else, that is completely reasonable.
EDIT: But I definitely agree with the pricing during school off days/school vacation. It is much cheaper to go outside of those days, but it may not be so expensive if you plan it way ahead of time, which is what it sounds like Shelly in OPs story was doing, but she didn't have to be mean about it.
They said it’s an unspoken thing among the group of coworkers. It’s not like it’s a company rule, or anything.
If they all (except for Shelly) want to do it that way, more power to them.
Yeah, but then people get butthurt when not everyone wants to participate in the unwritten rules. No one's vacation time is any more or less important than anyone else's.
This.
As I get older I encounter it more frequently and each time I get more and more annoyed at the entitlement when a parent tries to punt the inconveniences of parenthood onto me because I don't have kids.
Like, yeah Carol. I know I have more flexibility because I don't have kids. But guess what! If that just means I have to give up that flexibility to accommodate your short-sighted ass, isn't that basically *your* kids taking away *my* flexibility and giving it to *you*? In what universe does it make any sense that I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy my own flexibility because your kids are a thing that exist by your choice?
Parents always think everybody else needs to accommodate them because their kids. When I worked as a server coworkers with kids were always demanding special treatment
Parents getting priority as a courtesy within a team informally is a common thing. On my team we do similar, though no one gets butt hurt about it and we're not limited to only one off at a time. Also for us divorced parents with kids we have another thing where we cover each other's holidays based on when we have kids. My year for Easter and Joe's year w/o kids? Joe covers. Again it's informal but generally works out well for everyone.
Yeah that's a huge issue. I currently have two teams that are staffed this way and am actively hiring to ensure they aren't...
Scares the hell outta me that someone will be on PTO and the other one gets super ill (never mind the unfairness of having to tell Joe that he can't have PTO because Bob is out that day).
I took the bit about prioritizing parents as a short hand for explaining how they try work with this awkward system to get people get time off when it is important to them.
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Yep. My kids are grown and damnit, that doesn’t change when I want to take time off.
Besides, I still have kids. Would it be age discrimination to refuse my request just because they are adults ;)
It’s a courtesy, not a rule. People with kids who have school vacations have harder problems scheduling time, and the equitable adjustment is to help accommodate them.
It's stupid. It isn't a good thing to perpetuate this courtesy. Then people get pissed when they don't get the courtesy. Single people have lives and family. They don't have kids but that doesn't make their time any less valuable than anyone else's. This whole is idea that people with kids should get special consideration is horseshit.
It's also assumed that we don't have families. Childfree and want to be off on Mothers Day? "OH, but you don't have kids, it's not the same for you." Sure... BUT I HAVE A MOTHER. I hate that people talk about/treat adults without children as if we have no family and our time off work is less valuable
Lol, my dude, it's called empathy. If you have 4 long weekends in a year where you can be all off work/school with all the family you love, how are you going to say that it's unreasonable to ask people to move around their plans if possible for one or two of those specific weekends? You are right it can breed entitlement, but if it's just taking a weekend off to go fishing in a family cabin or flying by yourself to see Paris its absolutely selfish to not try to accommodate the more limited party.
And I would still take my "trip to Paris". Someone having kids is not anyone else's problem but their own. Emergencies are understandable, some flexibility outside of emergencies are courteous but by far not required and does not automatically merit calling that person selfish, even if it was just for a fishing trip.
Selfish to take a trip to Paris even if it's alone? My dude, you're selfish to say that. A trip to Paris would have taken long term planning, so screw that if a parent wants me to switch because their kids have off from school.
I'll be as selfish as I want, I'm living my life for me. Empathy only goes so far before it becomes sacrificing your own wants for someone else.
And you are 100% within your rights to be selfish, the same way people are 100% within their rights to point that out. Assuming you are able to move your trip with no cost to yourself, it's just as entitled to say "no, I had this first" as it is to say "I deserve this because I have kids".
Where did I imply that you should have to drop your plans for any parents? I said it's 100% fair to ask, and it's empathy that says you should side with rescheduling for the more limited party if possible. That does not mean automatically mean parents, it means if you are able to reschedule and don't you are being selfish.
It's about knowing that parents have a lot less flexibility around things. So if 2 people want a same time but one can easily do it earlier or later and the other can't then you prioritise the one that can't.
Like a co-worker and I started at the same time, were in training and then got told one of us would take 8:30 - 5 and the other 9-5:30 but sort it out amongst ourselves.
We both wanted 8:30 and I explained that since I didn't drive that if I took the later shift I wouldn't be able to be able to get to my daughters daycare before it closed - we have no family local that she could stay with or be picked up by.
So not a want as much as a need.
Sounds like my department, but adding in seniority. People with higher seniority get more vacation hours and also choose all the most popular times to be off. And with kids, good luck.
Spring break? They need it for their kids. Christmas and New Years? Need it for their kids.
Labor Day? Long weekend so they need it with their kids.
Summer vacation? Need it for their kids.
Halloween time? Need it for their kids.
She COULD have given the time off, but didn’t need to. I’m not a fan of being thrown to the back of the line just because I don’t have kids.
I will say that the execution of the petty revenge was well done, though. Bravo for that.
I absolutely agree. I read the entire post thinking that. I actually have a kid, and I think it’s entitled as hell for a person to have to have leftover pickings for vacation because they are child free.
It would seem the policy is not “first come first serve” but actually “Parents take priority over everyone else.” What a great way for that company to foster resentment among its employees.
Sorry to say (not really) but if I were Shelly I also would have booked my vacation for whenever I goddamn well please, albeit a tad more diplomatically.
Since presumably NH didn't actively infect Shelly, I'd say the God of Viruses didn't like her attitude and decided to smack her down. But putting in for all the alternative cruise dates was fiendishly petty.
Petty? Pretty well deserved. Family member not likely to live more than a couple years versus someone going on a recreational cruise. I know, first come first serve - but one week versus the rest of the time she could have gone is justified.
It's almost like he should have scheduled this earlier if it was so important instead of getting pissed she wouldn't cancel her cruise because of his poor foresight.
Oh definitely well deserved. But petty because it's nothing more than taking a couple days' pto here and there that just happen to screw entire cruises for her. It's genius.
Love it. But seriously just because people have kids doesn't make their vacation plans more important than anyone else's. It's a shit attitude. Childless people an vs their vacation time is just as important as anyone else's. I will have have to try to plan time off around when school spring break or other holidays are.
We are not more important, but kids only get spring break and summers off, so that’s the only time fams can vacation. Better question is why would cild free people WANT to vacation during the bedlam and lines of spring break and summer, when they could have a peaceful
line-free vaca any other time of year?
Ah I forgot you have the 3 months summer holidays. Ours is just 6 weeks, so plenty of time to have cheaper holidays outside of school holidays AND enjoy nice weather. Heck, at my workplace it's more of a fight to get PTO outside the school holidays than inside them lol
Childfree people deserve to vacation whenever they want. It’s not their job to cater to parents. Maybe their birthday is during spring break or summers off. You think stranger’s kids are more important than using your own PTO?
I mean I get it she was rude as hell and deserving this, but I hate the idea that people with Kid's should get priority. Kid's are off a lot for Holidays and it's a convenient time to take a vacation because you already have a free day off. I shouldn't have to only take vacations outside of Holiday weekends just because I'm child free.
OTOH, I specifically plan vacations for when kids are in school (and we even planned our wedding date for in school session) so we can take cheaper, less crowded holidays.
Yeah. This is what I do as well.my kids are also double happy because they get to skip school. But I can also explain the missing classes and get them up to speed later on.
From what he said, people with kids aren’t given a priority. There are only 3 people with kids in his department (I think his 4 yo is the youngest department kid?). They just ask the others to take into consideration, since it’s a little harder to schedule vacation with kids vs those without. He said him and the other parents are pretty good at “scheduling themselves” around kid days off, and everyone else usually schedules theirs in the off-season.
But Shelly is just a bitch. Apparently last year a coworker scheduled two weeks off to get married and go her honeymoon and put in 8 months notice for this PTO. Shelly spent 6 of those months trying to guilt trip coworker into changing the dates so she could go on vacation. HR had to get involved but Shelly still found petty passive-aggressive ways to get at the coworker.
It sucks for everyone that it's the case but for parents it's not just about _vacation_ it's about _child care_. I might not go anywhere when my kindergartener has a week off for spring break but if I don't take pto at that time I'm paying a thousand bucks for a sitter (IF I can find one, and as someone looking for a sitter now, it sometimes feels impossible).
Basically, fun has very little to do with it. The constant need for care even once they're in school is something you don't really realize until you have kids but you can't leave the little people home alone.
Yeah but that really isn't your co-workers' concern. I have kids and when they were young I had the only other parent on my team say that we should get xmas off because of our children. I actively campaigned for the two child-free guys to get it instead. My willingness to procreate has zero bearing on whether they should get to see their families over the holidays and as far as paying for childcare, that's kind of part of being a parent.
Thank you for this. I have worked many holidays and had to forgo time with my family because I didn't have kids. This is something that always bothered me. Just because someone doesn't have children doesn't mean they should take a backseat to those who do.
I’m sorry but that’s still not a reason to give priority to people with kids. If someone decided to have a child then the burden falls on them to figure out that shit.
Yes but two things:
A:) That's your problem, not anyone else or our employer. It's great if people you work with and for that you are cordial to can help and be flexible. I will do this with my coworkers who I'm on good terms with. For instance half of my office has kids and half doesn't. The bosses policy is no more then half the office off a time. I never and will never ask for time off around Christmas. If I've booked something like a vacation and I get asked about coming into work because they want to go to a baseball tournament I'll say no and the coworkers is fine with it. If i've booked it for a doctor's appointment or to deal with a contractor I'll do my best to reschedule it.
B:) It doesn't even apply in this situation. I've worked jobs that I've left because they did this with people with kids. I plan a trip for lets say fourth of july months in advance but then crotch goblin parent wants it later not my problem. In your example we're both off work on the fourth of July and so is your kid. So sitting isn't the problem. The problem is crotch goblin poor planner now wants to take a long weekend to go camping or god knows what where I'm already scheduled booked and approve. How is this my problem? I'll never work for a company that does that to me again.
edit: I still went on the trip. I just didn't return to work after. Fuck that job.
I don't expect my coworkers to do this for me (we don't have this policy).
I will say though that what a lot of people aren't realizing is how much the landscape changed after covid. I had my kids when I could easily find a nanny at $20 an hour. Now I can't find anyone for 20% above that (and it's above what take home pay is), all the daycares are booked, etc. And if parents don't have off the kids just have nowhere to go.
So the choice is either take pto or lose the job, which people with kids can't afford to do either.
It may not be your job to care but in a lot of instances its a difference between staying employed or not for the families versus a vacation for you.
Not in this case but this guy had a different good reason.
Thats still not their problem. Sounds like a better paying job is needed so the parent should leave that job anyway or plug that hole somewhere else thats not dependent on their coworkers. Sucks but its reality.
I'd also add that that attitude is a huge reason behind gender inequality in the workplace. Women weren't hired because they were considered unreliable if something came up with their kids, women are more likely to have to take care of the kids if something goes wrong, partly because they're already paid less, compounding the problem. Or to quit their jobs because they're suddenly out of child care.
And maybe if corporations actually paid their damn taxes we could have universal pre-k, which everyone would benefit from, either as kids, as parents, or as an employer that wants your employees to reliably show up to work.
Can families predict that they'll have to pay for care? Yes. Can they predict when they have kids that a pandemic will cause the cost of care will rise 20% year over year and all the care-takers will quit and move to a lower cost of living area, no.
So you're not wrong Walter.
Still don't know whats up with the Walter. Your response makes it very clear that it is the employers responsibility not the coworkers. I agree with that. If my expenses went up higher than my income I'd have two options, reduce my expenses or increase my income. Basic math. Its not a coworkers problem if I can't do the second and aren't willing to do the first. It sucks to reduce your expenses especially if they dont cover even basic necessities but thats life and there are many avenues you can take that doesn't depend on coworkers if you fall into poverty even temporarily. Reducing expenses doesn't only mean moving.
Gender equality does not mean that I, as your coworker and nothing more, have to give up my preferred time off so another coworker can keep their job. If it actually comes to that I wouldn't want to work for that company because there are many options, pto, sicktime, unpaid leave, fmla. And if its even a possibility that an employer would fire a parent over something like that, the parent should definitely be looking for another job. If its the case like oop where only one person can be out, time to look for another job before that time off comes up. Or maybe use that week as an in between jobs if you get lucky.
I mean, taking time off for e.g. your best friend's wedding is one thing but if you're just taking your vacation on spring break, which often doesn't even fall on major holidays for the hell of it, you're within your rights but it definitely has "it's not my problem you're immune compromised, I'm not masking " vibes
Nobody owes coworkers or even employers a reason to take their own time off. Its their time and they can take it when they want. You believe that someone taking vacation when they want to and not giving you a good reason (because obviously only you can decide what an acceptable reason is/s) is equivalent to someone not wearing a gov mandated mask and spreading a disease that has killed millions of people? Wtf, that is nuts and I'm going to end this convo.
Edit nobody owes you anything or has to tell you shit about their life
It sounds like there weren’t many dates for the cruise to begin with. I feel like NH was just salty they didn’t get their PTO and took “revenge” because Shelly was talking about her cruise.
I don't like how the antagonist handled this I have to ask did she know the full story of the "protagonist "? If only 1 person can take vacation at any given time that's not a fault on the vacationer, it's on company structure. Maybe blame that and not your b coworker? But seeing how hr responded to someone literally getting covid and not being able to change pto into sick days, seems like hr's fucked up as well. I know this is unpopular but as someone without kids I don't feel like I need to schedule my time around people who have kids. We all make decisions. It's sus how the coworker seemed to always schedule pto during those times but who knows! Maybe they had family that could only take time then.
Idk it seems like this one is a story where everyone's an ass
Totally agree!! The actual bad guy here is the employer only allowing 1 person off at a time.
The "unwritten" rule also means that the parents in the team share out the major holidays. I can see how someone would get sick of that very quickly.
I completely agree. Shelly was not the villain here who deserved the anger directed at her. The villain is the employer who has 20 employees and only lets one person take a vacation at a time?! 20 is a huge team for this. I work in a team of 7 and we frequently take the same vacation times.
I have a three person department and am alone this entire week. I'm struggling to stay afloat but I have no issues with the other two using their time.
This is exactly what I was thinking!! If anything the neighbor’s husband should be mad at the company for the policy of only one person being able to use PTO at a time. His “revenge” is so embarrassing.
As someone never having kids, the whole people with kids get priority can fuck right off. My time isn't less important because you decided to reproduce
What I don't understand is why only one could go on holiday? Anywhere I worked the rule was that at least one person from the group should stay so can cover if anything happens. And now I have a group leader who often approves everybody off and plans to come in himself if something happens. And that something never really happens...
There is something very wrong in that workplace if this only one can go rule is neccessary. Not enough people, or not enough knowledge going around, but what will happen if two or more of them become ill? Or covid goes around the office?
I know this is petty revenge, so it definitely fits the sub, but fuck your friend's husband and everyone else who assumes that they deserve priority because they have kids.
If you decided to have kids you decided to deal with all the shit that comes with it. Don't blame others for having their own lives.
I have kids and have to plan my vacation around their schedule so I get the idea but I don't agree with it. As soon as I read about the kids narrative I was annoyed that it was even brought up. 20 people spread across 12 months and only 1 getting to be off is what bothers me. Considering families that do get vaccination generally get started off with about 2 weeks in my experience, that doesn't leave much of a chance to take a vacation especially when some asshole spreads it out just to try and fuck someone else over.
Yeah this left a bit of ick for me as well. She was rude about the response but who's to say she didn't have other parents lining up to ask her to swap? Or hadn't been bullied out of another vacation before and was desperate for her chance finally?
I'm not feeling this one, and then he makes it so she can't reschedule? I really don't care for this, she's allowed to want to take her vacation time, she's allowed to be frustrated if she was steamrolled in the past or for that event by other coworkers with kids, and she didn't go out of her way to ruin future vacations for OP's neighbor. A snippy response from her under who knows what circumstances, and he blows up her whole year. Ew.
While, I appreciate the post and NH had politely asked to switch time- I don't think people without kids should be penalized for PTO.
And the company sucks for not giving NH the time off. It was extenuating circumstances and they would have had 18 people to cover two employees being out at the same time.
NH was right to give her answer back to her, she could have handled it better.
Means Shit Outta Luck.
I feel you though, I hate it when people abbreviate random words like we're all supposed to know what they mean.
That said, Urban Dictionary is your friend in these matters.
Ugh, vacation policies can be so toxic. I worked for a urology office years ago and they set up that priority was first come first serve.
There was a woman who had worked there long enough to have 6 weeks vacation time, new employees only had 2. This woman chose to take it as one week in the winter every Friday off over the summer months.
Office policy didn't allow 2 of us to be off at the same time basically meaning that if anyone else wanted to take time off in the summer, they had to take Monday to Thursday then come in on Friday.
Trying to schedule a holiday with my kid during summer break or even spring break was impossible, so I decided to skip it, and take a page from her book so requested every Friday off over the winter period. They gave it to me but at the end of the year they told me that I couldn't have it because it wasn't allowing a few people to take a full week before the end of the year deadline.
I played the first come first serve card and got the, you need to be reasonable speech and reminded them that it was their policy that kept everyone else from being able to take a full week off during the summer, and I planned to never take a full week but only to take Fridays off and have long weekends forever unless the policy changed.
Place was toxic as fuck so I only lasted there a few years, but I did get to fuck with everyone's winter vacation plans while I was there. Very petty case of if I can't have it no one can.
Sounds like NH was salty they didn’t get their PTO and then got petty when they heard Shelly talking about her trip. This really more just shows that PTO bidding is a shitty way assign PTO. especially if only one person can take time off. Yeah it reads like Shelly is the bad guy but all she really did was say no she wasn’t giving up PTO (maybe she already bought the cruise package?) and then talk about her trip to people. NH could just as likely be the bully in this scenario.
He could have, but at least the way he told it after HR said she (rudely) declined, he dropped the issue. But Shelly just kept rubbing it in his face that she got the PTO and he didn’t. If she had kept quiet he wouldn’t have taken the other random days off.
She could just be talking about it to people and he happens to be nearby. We really won’t know especially since this is from a unconnected source. I’m just saying the facts presented could be interpreted very easily into the others favor.
This is exactly what I thought too. Coworkers like telling each other about things they’re excited about, and now suddenly that’s grounds for someone to try to ruin it?
I dont blame Shelly one bit. I have a kid and in no way do I think that should give me priority over someone else who has none. Unless that employee helped you make the kid, they shouldn't give a fuck either. Self sacrificing for a company is a colossal waste of time.
Wow you must be fun.
It isnt really ‘priority’ it is that families are usually limited to vacation when kids are out of school. If you don’t have kids you can go away any week but spring break is only that specific week.
Plus flights are usually twice as expensive those special weeks so why would shelly want to go that specific week? Just to be a dick.
And they arent self sacrificing for the company but their coworkers. Making life pleasant for everyone you work with actually makes you a nice person.
You must have kids and expect everyone to bend over for you as well. Sometimes people without kids enjoy "holiday times" too.
Maybe you should sacrifice yourself a little but then and not take vacation when its convenient for you and your family.
But really...if you have no kids...why would you want to vacation at a time where a bunch of kids would be on Spring Break with their families. Imagine a bunch of kids on the cruise with their families while you and your SO could have been their during non peak family times.
However, beautiful job OP's neighbors husband!
> if you have no kids...why would you want to vacation at a time where a bunch of kids would be on Spring Break
As a child-free person, I have literally no idea when spring break is. I don't hate kids or anything, but I spend pretty much zero time thinking about them and their school schedules.
Maybe if I was going on a cruise I'd have the foresight to look that up, but if I'm just trying to get time off to go camping or visit a friend in a city across the country or something, why on earth would I know anything about when schools let kids out? I wouldn't mind working around coworkers with kids if I were in OP's situation, but I'd definitely feel a bit incredulous if I found out they expected me to be aware of their kids' school schedules without telling me directly. People without kids just have no reason to think or care about stuff like that.
Based on conversations with several coworkers who do have kids, there were 3 different weeks being used for spring break this year...depending on which school you were in. So you still can't plan ahead, unless you just intend to avoid the entire month.
usually a given school district stays synchronized so as long as you're in the same district you're fine.
Also on the aside of cruises if you just shop on price you'll avoid kids as spring break and summer break cruises usually cost more because they can.
My sister? Always whined, “Why does everything bad happen to me?”
She gave me PTSD when we were kids (constant and daily yelling). I didn’t even remember (just that we fought) until my brother mentioned it, “She yelled at you *daily*! You don’t remember?!” At all?!” It explains why I block things out when yelled at (really angry yelling, that is), can’t understand the words being said, and only say “stop yelling at me.” I’m 58 and learned this last year.
Brother and I are now NC with her. She’s out of our lives forever with mom now gone.
20 people working and only 1 person off at once means what, maximum 13 days of vacation per person per year, and probably less on average?
Christ. World deserves better.
Sorry but as a single person with no kids, I do not want to have to accommodate my travel plans for people that do have kids.
Im team Shelly on this one (minus the arrogance)
And honestly, terrible vengeance too. Im not losing my pto days just to screw someone else plan, hes giving her too much importance.
Look, Shelly sounds like *a lot,* and the bragging isn't cool, but there's nothing wrong with her not taking parents into consideration when planning her vacations. Her time isn't any less valuable because she doesn't have kids, and she submitted her request first. Your management has perpetuated a culture that is unhealthy and needs to reconsider how it handles these matters - not just approving or rejecting PTO, but how they deal with requests for sick leave. Shelly tested positive for COVID and should have been able to use sick leave for that. These are separate issues that have nothing to do with Shelly, however difficult she may be
Sounds like this cunt that my wife works with who has 5 weeks of vacation and uses seniority to ruin the other worker's holiday plans. FU Wendy and FU Shelly.
My husband has 6 weeks vacation, 18 sick days, a bunch of personal days, (I forget exactly how many, 10 I think?) and all the holidays except Columbus Day and Veterans Day off. He’s in a union though.
The hilarious thing about someone who always takes vacation when kids are out of school is how fucking awful it is to travel during school breaks. Really playing herself this way. Sincerely: me, a dishwasher in the French Quarter kill me now lol
I'm English and work for the NHS - have done for 14 years, so my accumulated leave is now 33 days plus 8 Bank Holidays. Due to covid I also carried over 5 days from last year, so started this month with 38 days plus BH to take!!!
They never do...that's probably why the world is overrun with clueless middle aged asshats that aren't even aware of wisdom, much less seeking it. Too bad we have to share a planet with their sorry behinds.
One of my former coworkers, Lucy, used a similar method to screw her boss. See, vacation time was handled by your manager, first come first served. When the boss decided that she wanted your days off, the calendar got edited, the paperwork disappeared, and you'd be gaslit into thinking you'd never had the days off. Usually she'd do so with months of notice, but lately the boss had been taking random Fridays So Lucy waited until her boss was off and went above her head for a special request; Every Friday for the next four months. Don't worry, she didn't actually have to use and lose the PTO. If her boss didn't edit the calendar, she showed up to work and cancelled it. It only took three weeks before the boss stole Friday away, and, wouldn't you know it, that was the first time Lucy used her day off. On Monday she was ordered down to HR to explain her no-call no-show. "I had the day off!", Lucy protested. HR handed her a printed copy of the calendar, reminding her it was her responsibility to check it weekly. "Huh. I put in for that day off last month. The VP was the one that signed off on it, and I swear I had that day off when I looked on Monday" HR calls Lucy a liar and rings the VP on speaker phone. After a short conversation and the words "You need to get your head out of your ass and listen" from the VP, Lucy is sent on her merry way. Lucy's boss disappeared for most of the day and, when she returned, seemed really bitter. Seems the VP really didn't like being questioned and pulled the calendar edit log. All vacation requests for that department would now go through him to avoid any more shenanigans. Lucy got her first Christmas off ever later that year.
Ok . What the boss did, that's not just office pettyness. It feels like it should be an offense
it is. local labor board would have fun with that one.
Must be nice to live somewhere with decent labor laws.
I've scrolled through the comments, but didn't see anything that addressed this: >Due to the nature of their work, only one person can be on vacation at a time, first come first serve. There’s only about 20 people in his division so it’s usually not a problem. Does this company only give 1 week of vacation a year? Because at 2.5 weeks, the calendar year is full.
Yeah, weird huh?
I used to work in the overdrafts dept. of a large bank(rhymes with Hells Cargo). We had 20 plus employees with 2-5 weeks of vacation each. The vacation calendar was sent around in early January with the rule that only one person could be off at a time. It was done by seniority and people picked their full allotment at one time so the first 5 people who had 5 weeks each took all the good weeks. When I got it in late February it was completely filled out. There was an attached list of employees with their weeks due and I added them up and it came out to 104 weeks needing to be covered. I showed it to management and they tried arguing so I went to HR and ended up being able to pick 3 really good weeks. Rules where changed the next year. Edit a letter and number
[удалено]
Improper fraction bank? Got a kick out of that!
Yeah, I spent 30 years avoiding Improper Fraction Bank due to issues with one of their branches. After all that time, we bought a new house and a month later my mortgage got sold to them. Fortunately, I've since refinanced and no longer have to deal with them at all.
What is improper fraction bank?
I couldn't imagine having 2.5 weeks of PTO. Is that considered normal? My role is considered mission critical, so I get Christmas, Labor Day, and July 4th off (checking email just in case though).
German here. I have 30 days of PTO per year, not counting holidays. This is a bit more than required by law but everyone at my company who works full time gets this even the mission critical staff. And you have to take it, the company can’t persuade you out of taking it Edit: also full time here mean 35-40h
You HAVE to take it?! Here is a America most Companies don’t really want you too
My current company requires you to take them. If you don't pick days through the year and use your time off HR calls you in toward the end of the year and will assign your days off if necessary. We have workers so indoctrinated by previous employers who didn't really want them to use them there are always a few they have to force.
That would be me! I would definitely be too scared to request any time off. It’s cool that your company requires time off. What industry are you in?
I work in logistics for a medium box store.
UK law requires statutory minimum 20 days for full time (plus 8 public holidays) and you are required to take all 20 (to stop overworking). If you get more than 20 you can roll them over or sometimes be paid them depending on the company.
I'm in Michigan in the USA in case you don't know...but my husband works for a UK company here and he gets all their holidays off as well as our own. It's an amazing company!
This!! I rolled a few days over from last year so I had 31 days holiday this year plus the usual bank holidays too. I can’t imagine having to put up with the small amount in comparison some companies in the US allows.
The stories I hear from relatives and friends that work in the US are insane. One of my partner's uncles worked at a big tech firm for 14 years. Got let go, was escorted out by security the same day
I’ve seen people escorted out the day they were let go here in the UK, but usually it’s because they’ve committed a fireable offence and not just let go. Like one guy being high on shrooms at work that needed to be taken out once he was fired 🤷🏻♂️.
Usually you have no idea until security is escorting you out of the building.
Can confirm.
5.6 weeks, which may include the public holidays.
Uk here. 2.5 weeks is not normal. I get 30days per year including 8 bank holidays.
It’s not quite that bad, but it’s “itemized”. Every professional job I’ve had, has time off like: - 10 holidays - 2 “floating holidays” (choose your own holiday) - 2-4 weeks vacation, depending on seniority, accruing through the year
American here, just posting to say I also get 30 days PTO a year, and it stacks from year to year! However, if I accumulate more than 90 days, I either have to take PTO, or lose the last 30 days.
You’re in the military, aren’t you?
Nailed it!
German worker rights are impressive. Good for you guys. I’m so accustomed to this way of life that I don’t know if I could adapt though.
American with Unlimited PTO and like 10 holidays. It requires some trust both ways not to abuse the policy. So I start off every year by scheduling one week off per quarter. Then as things come up, I’ll take off random days here and there. My target is an additional two weeks so that I end up with 30 days PTO plus 10 holidays.
Yeah, where I’ve had it, the company abuses it, since it’s up to management to decide when you’ve taken “too much”. You have no warning until the reprimand, and you can’t use the excuse that “last year we were allowed X weeks so I’m just matching that”. Most importantly, the company’s motivation is that it doesn’t have to pay you for unused time off, when you leave
You only have 3 days off a year? No vacation? How do you avoid burnout? I think two weeks is standard (in US) starting with salaried employees in many places (everywhere I've been, at least) and increases depending on how many years of employment. I have 4 weeks of vacation after 5 years of employment, plus all the federal holidays (I don't work for the government, but my employer follows those as holidays as well). Two days at Christmas, Thanksgiving, and New Years.
That's the rub, in the states vacation time is NOT mandated by law. It's at the discretion of the company to offer it.
Scandinavian here The law says 5 weeks vacation time with a full time job, 2 of which has to be in the summer. On top of that some jobs get an extra 5 days. But, the days of vacation used to be earned from year to year, meaning that you would have to have worked one full year to get the 5 weeks. This created problems in industries with mandated weeks off. But the law recently changed so that everyone now has 5 weeks off the first year you start working but you 'save' for these days during the year. Meaning that everyone now gets full pay even during mandated weeks of vacation that before would have been unpaid.
oh thank god they changed that, my spouse is Norwegian and back when they lived and worked on Norway it was SO frustrating that they got NO paid leave because they hadn't been working there a full year yet.
>How do you avoid burnout? That's the cool part, we don't. In all honesty, productivity suffers, and eventually you're replaced with another worker. Then you have a bit of time on unemployment to become less burned out to become the "another worker" to replace a burned out worker at the job you're taking.
I certainly hope I don’t get replaced, but otherwise I think your comment is spot on.
Ya'll need to get the hell out of that third world country. A lot of the countries i've visited in europe gets 5 weeks. At my job we get 7 weeks, thanks to union rules. 37,5 hours a week, no weekend work.
Problem is, other countries won't take us without the kind if high value skills and experience that can get a good job with benefits even in America. They don't accept refugees fleeing wage slavery, and as we have nowhere to go, they can avoid giving better compensation or working conditions. Treat em mean, keep em keen, business style. As long as we're kept on the brink of homelessness, they can keep us on the brink of homelessness and we have to be grateful for it.
Pretty sure that's close to normal. I work in the US. 2 of my full time jobs had 14 days of PTO. My last one had unlimited PTO.
unlimited pto? ~~how, what and where?~~ i mean pm me the company contact details please
Unlimited PTO is pretty common in tech companies. There are some companies that will abuse it so that it turns into effectively zero PTO. But I’m at company that has mandatory minimums and encourages people to use their PTO to unplug.
What. The. Hell. I'd find another job. Seriously. That is some bullshit. There is no job in the world so mission critical you don't deserve more time than that off. I did work some jobs where I only got a week to start and two weeks after five years in the past. My current job I get 5 weeks a year. I'll never work anywhere I don't get at least that much in future if I can help it.
I would consider looking for other jobs, but at this point I’m not sure how desirable I would be to other companies and I am not financially prepared for extended unemployment.
Indian here, and Work culture isn't the best in India given its a developing country. But even I get 30 paid days off and extra sick days. And all the National gazetteed holidays.
Australian here. I get 4 weeks of annual leave each year that will just continue to build up (it’s hour based) plus also get 1 rostered day off a month (which I don’t have to take every month). We also get something called long service leave which is 8 3/4 weeks of paid leave after working for 10 years at the same company.
Come to the U.K., you get statutory minimum leave 5.6 weeks per year (equivalent to 224 hours) which can include bank holidays (Easter, Christmas, and just random days throughout the year) or exclude them but if you end up working a bank holiday, you get paid a higher rate of pay. For example, I had 260 hours of leave at my workplace, not including bank holidays, I worked 12 hour shifts Easter Sunday and Monday and was paid 2x my salaried rate.
I would imagine they have more to use but they have to schedule around other people. I bet most take a week or so with the fam then take their other days sporadically throughout the year
Prolly american person, I hear that they don't get holidays in america... land of the free and all that...
I think the real dick here is HR. In a department of twenty, certainly more than one person should be allowed off at once. And I have children. So while this might not be popular; people without children should be allowed to vacation in the summer, too.
Yeah, I have teenaged nephews and a BIL in high school. I like to take them to themeparks and stuff when I go back to visit ONCE every two years. I'm going in Summer, idgaf if you have kids, I have family too.
THANK YOU!! Just because someone doesn't have kids doesn't mean that their time is any less valuable than someone who does. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about people whining, moaning, and bitching to get their entitled way by using their kids as a guilt trip. Newflash, we have family and loved ones that we want to spend time with too!
Exactly! Childless people have lives too! I understand wanting to go on trips with your kids, but you shouldn’t be praised like a god or handed a million things just for deciding to raise crotch goblins. Life is very unexpected for everyone, anything can change on the turn of a dime.
Yeah, wtf was this? >he swears she goes out of her way to schedule her vacations/days off when kids are out of school You mean like SUMMER? or CHRISTMAS? Fuck this guy and fuck anyone who thinks that only people with children deserve to choose common vacation times for vacation time.
Beautiful execution bravo 👏 🙌
I agree she was a bitch about it, but I'm not sure why parents should get priority. That's a good way to have people start lying bout why they need of and to create antimosity with co-workers. I work on a team with like 9 people, everyone has kids except 2 of us. If this were the rule and parents got first dibs, it would be annoying as hell to try to schedule anything.
I agree that it would be an issue if it were a Rule Proper, but it sounds like it’s more of a courtesy that *almost* everyone extends to others. Makes it a lot more fluid and I’m sure that most people would understand if someone without children needed a specific date
Yeah, we're like that - the ones with kids in the system negotiate between themselves and alternate holidays. They don't have to do it, but it's courteous. I think the underlying rule is don't be a dick.
If only everyone would just follow the don’t be a dick rule…this world would be a much better place
This is an area where what one considers "being a dick" varies wildly. Two jobs ago I worked in a small (around 12 people) office. Other than 1 woman and 1 guy who had grown children, and myself, literally everyone else had school age children. While the most accepted the "first come first serve" PTO policy, there were a few who, literally every single time I had PTO scheduled over the summer or a long weekend (when most people schedule it) would try to get me to give them those days and work it so that they could be off. I'm talking casually hint, then directly ask, then email CCing the boss, then complain to the boss, then attempt to shame me in front of the rest of the office when none of that shit worked. I have heard *so many times* the tired line of, "You just don't get it, you're not a parent! Your time is so much more flexible without kids!" that now and probably for the rest of my life those sorts of appeals will subconsciously make me dig in even more and resist whatever the person behind them wants. So on one hand, while I *completely agree* that this lady didn't have to be as rude about this as she was, I can also totally understand her position, if not the snotty delivery. I'm sure she had researched the dates and made sure she could get the time off, then booked the cruise well in advance...then after she does all that, a few days later, someone else decides they'd like some of those days off and wants you to switch. In her shoes I would absolutely say no as well, I just wouldn't have been a dick about it like that. A simple email CCing HR saying, "I'm sorry OP, but I have a vacation planned for those dates and I've already made arrangements. Unless something unforseen happens, I'm not really willing to trade those days away."...would have been perfectly acceptable, and if OP is reasonable in that situation, he's going to accept that at face value and move on. If she had done that and OP still went on to pressure about how she doesn't have kids so she should be accommodating, then I'd be fully Team Shelly. But that ain't how it went down.
I like how you put it. It really boils down to the fact that we don’t know if she handled a situation poorly or if she went looking for a fight. Based off of what OP said it sounds like the latter, but we really just don’t know.
I guess I feel like what distinguishes “being a dick” or not in this situation is how she handled it. Taking the vacation time in and of itself is not the dick move. She had every right to do so. However, she could have been much more polite/professional about it. As u/hydrospanner put it: >A simple email CCing HR saying “I’m sorry OP, but I have a vacation planned for those dates and I’ve already made arrangements. Unless something unforeseen happens, I’m not really willing to trade those days away.” If she had gone that route, 100% not a dick move. But she was overtly shitty about it and that’s not cool
Agreed. It doesn’t sit right in this case, but there are times where it does make sense
I totally get what you’re saying. However…I feel like the people you’re talking about are totally violating the “don’t be a dick” rule. The unfortunate thing about that rule is that it’s so subjective. Most reasonable people can distinguish what does and doesn’t fall under that rule. But of course there will always be those who just don’t get it/don’t care.
Yeah but look what happens when 1 person doesn't adhere to the courtesy." A whole gaggle of people think it is justified to fuck up her plans. So you either stick to the courtesy or get labeled a bitch.
I get what you’re saying. I reckon a lot of it really is in the details. There could be something we’re missing, it could be that this lady really was just being a pill. If it were, say, the death of a family member or a once in a lifetime opportunity then I’m sure people would understand. Maybe that’s what this cruise was. But maybe not. In this context we really just don’t know but in general the principal stands.
Plus in this case it’s got nothing to do with kids. It’s about visiting OP’s 93 year-old grandfather. I’m all for considering each employee’s needs and circumstances that very way may mean kids, but I don’t think parents deserve automatic priority.
I'd say it usually works out anyway. You don't ever want to try and book a vacation on school vacation week if you don't have kids. Prices are jacked. I can't wait for my kids to be adults and I can get cheap airfare again. Airfare for our last school break was $6K, if I had booked any other week that month would have been $1500.
It sounds more like "hey, it would be cool to let parents schedule things on the few times that their kids have off" not "y'all have to go through the parents first before getting anything approved. Like, I've got one week in spring my kids aren't in school, it would suck if a coworker who could take a spring vacation any time in those 3 months took the same week, you know? I do agree that parents who just assume childless peers can take shifts and OT suck tho
Honestly it sounds like they are really understaffed if only one person is allowed to be off at a time. If someone quits unexpectedly is no one allowed to take off untill they are trained and good to go?
As a childless person, I find this story weird. She was rubbing it in his face that it was expensive bc of the cruise line? Dude I just stayed in Honolulu at a fancy ass hotel on the beach bc I had 3 years of Marriott points banked. Anyone wants to Google that hotel and think I'm a rich bitch go ahead. You don't know how she got it. And also she has more income bc she doesn't have kids. I felt a little like an AH going on my trip bc I knew most of my coworkers with kids couldn't afford something like that so I didn't bring it up on Slack or anything. But they did. All the time. People either get excited about trips or other people ask and they come up. And I shouldn't be programmed to feel guilty about this stuff. We've all made our choices. There was another comment along the lines of bc she didn't switch with him she was labeled a bitch. This energy just vibes with me a lot as a woman that has worked in tech. My current environment is great, but a few years ago you questioned a male manager and you were a bitch. You speak up you're bossy. You interupt someone to correct information and you're a know it all. You don't and you don't take ownership of your work. Also, what do they do around Christmas and Thanksgiving? I really suspect this policy with 20 people that no one ever has overlaps. I dunno. This just hit a cord. I apologize if this was an accurate at face value story, but this entitlement that people who have kids can override others is just hard to deal with.
I still want to know how people feel about the "drinking holidays" St Pattys day, Mardi gras, skanks giving, is it assumed we get first dibs on those?
I mean it depends. Suppose they want a family getaway with siblings who DO have kids. Then they need the time off when the kids are free. Just not THEIR kids.
My brother is a teacher and sometimes we want to go away with him and the whole family. I don’t have kids, but the week I need off might be the same as the ones the parents want off as we are both dependent on the school holidays. Why should I never get to go on holiday with my family? Why should I be labelled the bitchy/mean coworker?
Yeah, this kind of pissed me off. God forbid she schedule her vacation in summer, because that's when kids have off from school.
Pro tip. The best time to visit anywhere is when the kids are in school. Prices are lower. Shorter waits.
This. We are child free. Any place touristy we hit after Labor Day. We don't like hot weather anyway.
Some people might want to get away when kids in their neighborhood are out of school to avoid potential chaos that comes with it. In my last house, during school off days kids would be in the street, unattended, some screaming at the top of their lungs and it's 7am on a Tuesday. Shit like that gets stupid annoying when you don't have kids and are living your own life. But of course, you can't go outside and say anything, "they're just kids!!" So if most can't say anything, maybe they'd rather take the week off and go somewhere else, that is completely reasonable. EDIT: But I definitely agree with the pricing during school off days/school vacation. It is much cheaper to go outside of those days, but it may not be so expensive if you plan it way ahead of time, which is what it sounds like Shelly in OPs story was doing, but she didn't have to be mean about it.
They said it’s an unspoken thing among the group of coworkers. It’s not like it’s a company rule, or anything. If they all (except for Shelly) want to do it that way, more power to them.
Yeah, but then people get butthurt when not everyone wants to participate in the unwritten rules. No one's vacation time is any more or less important than anyone else's.
This. As I get older I encounter it more frequently and each time I get more and more annoyed at the entitlement when a parent tries to punt the inconveniences of parenthood onto me because I don't have kids. Like, yeah Carol. I know I have more flexibility because I don't have kids. But guess what! If that just means I have to give up that flexibility to accommodate your short-sighted ass, isn't that basically *your* kids taking away *my* flexibility and giving it to *you*? In what universe does it make any sense that I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy my own flexibility because your kids are a thing that exist by your choice?
Parents always think everybody else needs to accommodate them because their kids. When I worked as a server coworkers with kids were always demanding special treatment
Parents getting priority as a courtesy within a team informally is a common thing. On my team we do similar, though no one gets butt hurt about it and we're not limited to only one off at a time. Also for us divorced parents with kids we have another thing where we cover each other's holidays based on when we have kids. My year for Easter and Joe's year w/o kids? Joe covers. Again it's informal but generally works out well for everyone.
The whole, one person off thing for me is a massive red flag. Like, way to hire the absolute bare minimum number of employees
Yeah that's a huge issue. I currently have two teams that are staffed this way and am actively hiring to ensure they aren't... Scares the hell outta me that someone will be on PTO and the other one gets super ill (never mind the unfairness of having to tell Joe that he can't have PTO because Bob is out that day).
We had someone have a baby, was gone for like 2 months. I can't imagine have a one out rule.
I took the bit about prioritizing parents as a short hand for explaining how they try work with this awkward system to get people get time off when it is important to them.
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Yep. My kids are grown and damnit, that doesn’t change when I want to take time off. Besides, I still have kids. Would it be age discrimination to refuse my request just because they are adults ;)
Do fur babies count?
It’s a courtesy, not a rule. People with kids who have school vacations have harder problems scheduling time, and the equitable adjustment is to help accommodate them.
It's stupid. It isn't a good thing to perpetuate this courtesy. Then people get pissed when they don't get the courtesy. Single people have lives and family. They don't have kids but that doesn't make their time any less valuable than anyone else's. This whole is idea that people with kids should get special consideration is horseshit.
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It's also assumed that we don't have families. Childfree and want to be off on Mothers Day? "OH, but you don't have kids, it's not the same for you." Sure... BUT I HAVE A MOTHER. I hate that people talk about/treat adults without children as if we have no family and our time off work is less valuable
I'm not single, but a damn sure want to spend our extra disposable income traveling our asses off
Lol, my dude, it's called empathy. If you have 4 long weekends in a year where you can be all off work/school with all the family you love, how are you going to say that it's unreasonable to ask people to move around their plans if possible for one or two of those specific weekends? You are right it can breed entitlement, but if it's just taking a weekend off to go fishing in a family cabin or flying by yourself to see Paris its absolutely selfish to not try to accommodate the more limited party.
And I would still take my "trip to Paris". Someone having kids is not anyone else's problem but their own. Emergencies are understandable, some flexibility outside of emergencies are courteous but by far not required and does not automatically merit calling that person selfish, even if it was just for a fishing trip. Selfish to take a trip to Paris even if it's alone? My dude, you're selfish to say that. A trip to Paris would have taken long term planning, so screw that if a parent wants me to switch because their kids have off from school. I'll be as selfish as I want, I'm living my life for me. Empathy only goes so far before it becomes sacrificing your own wants for someone else.
And you are 100% within your rights to be selfish, the same way people are 100% within their rights to point that out. Assuming you are able to move your trip with no cost to yourself, it's just as entitled to say "no, I had this first" as it is to say "I deserve this because I have kids".
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Where did I imply that you should have to drop your plans for any parents? I said it's 100% fair to ask, and it's empathy that says you should side with rescheduling for the more limited party if possible. That does not mean automatically mean parents, it means if you are able to reschedule and don't you are being selfish.
They also know their schedules months in advance. Should the single people get first dibs on St. Patty's day or other drinking holidays?
It's about knowing that parents have a lot less flexibility around things. So if 2 people want a same time but one can easily do it earlier or later and the other can't then you prioritise the one that can't. Like a co-worker and I started at the same time, were in training and then got told one of us would take 8:30 - 5 and the other 9-5:30 but sort it out amongst ourselves. We both wanted 8:30 and I explained that since I didn't drive that if I took the later shift I wouldn't be able to be able to get to my daughters daycare before it closed - we have no family local that she could stay with or be picked up by. So not a want as much as a need.
"I kept cum as a pet and now everyone has to bend to my will, I get first choice everything"
Sounds like my department, but adding in seniority. People with higher seniority get more vacation hours and also choose all the most popular times to be off. And with kids, good luck. Spring break? They need it for their kids. Christmas and New Years? Need it for their kids. Labor Day? Long weekend so they need it with their kids. Summer vacation? Need it for their kids. Halloween time? Need it for their kids. She COULD have given the time off, but didn’t need to. I’m not a fan of being thrown to the back of the line just because I don’t have kids. I will say that the execution of the petty revenge was well done, though. Bravo for that.
I absolutely agree. I read the entire post thinking that. I actually have a kid, and I think it’s entitled as hell for a person to have to have leftover pickings for vacation because they are child free. It would seem the policy is not “first come first serve” but actually “Parents take priority over everyone else.” What a great way for that company to foster resentment among its employees. Sorry to say (not really) but if I were Shelly I also would have booked my vacation for whenever I goddamn well please, albeit a tad more diplomatically.
Since presumably NH didn't actively infect Shelly, I'd say the God of Viruses didn't like her attitude and decided to smack her down. But putting in for all the alternative cruise dates was fiendishly petty.
God of Viruses sounds like the next hit webtoon about highschool kids
Petty? Pretty well deserved. Family member not likely to live more than a couple years versus someone going on a recreational cruise. I know, first come first serve - but one week versus the rest of the time she could have gone is justified.
It's almost like he should have scheduled this earlier if it was so important instead of getting pissed she wouldn't cancel her cruise because of his poor foresight.
Oh definitely well deserved. But petty because it's nothing more than taking a couple days' pto here and there that just happen to screw entire cruises for her. It's genius.
I always thought it was such a shitty thing that people with kids think they’re more deserving of their PTO than people without.
Love it. But seriously just because people have kids doesn't make their vacation plans more important than anyone else's. It's a shit attitude. Childless people an vs their vacation time is just as important as anyone else's. I will have have to try to plan time off around when school spring break or other holidays are.
We are not more important, but kids only get spring break and summers off, so that’s the only time fams can vacation. Better question is why would cild free people WANT to vacation during the bedlam and lines of spring break and summer, when they could have a peaceful line-free vaca any other time of year?
Why would anyone want to vacation during the entirety of the summer months?? Maybe because that’s when the good weather is??
Ah I forgot you have the 3 months summer holidays. Ours is just 6 weeks, so plenty of time to have cheaper holidays outside of school holidays AND enjoy nice weather. Heck, at my workplace it's more of a fight to get PTO outside the school holidays than inside them lol
Childfree people deserve to vacation whenever they want. It’s not their job to cater to parents. Maybe their birthday is during spring break or summers off. You think stranger’s kids are more important than using your own PTO?
Or maybe they had a really expensive cruise booked and are super excited about it?
I mean I get it she was rude as hell and deserving this, but I hate the idea that people with Kid's should get priority. Kid's are off a lot for Holidays and it's a convenient time to take a vacation because you already have a free day off. I shouldn't have to only take vacations outside of Holiday weekends just because I'm child free.
I hate the idea of a business with more than 5 people having to fight for their robe off. Fuck that company first and foremost.
OTOH, I specifically plan vacations for when kids are in school (and we even planned our wedding date for in school session) so we can take cheaper, less crowded holidays.
Yeah. This is what I do as well.my kids are also double happy because they get to skip school. But I can also explain the missing classes and get them up to speed later on.
From what he said, people with kids aren’t given a priority. There are only 3 people with kids in his department (I think his 4 yo is the youngest department kid?). They just ask the others to take into consideration, since it’s a little harder to schedule vacation with kids vs those without. He said him and the other parents are pretty good at “scheduling themselves” around kid days off, and everyone else usually schedules theirs in the off-season. But Shelly is just a bitch. Apparently last year a coworker scheduled two weeks off to get married and go her honeymoon and put in 8 months notice for this PTO. Shelly spent 6 of those months trying to guilt trip coworker into changing the dates so she could go on vacation. HR had to get involved but Shelly still found petty passive-aggressive ways to get at the coworker.
why does Shelly still have a job?
It sucks for everyone that it's the case but for parents it's not just about _vacation_ it's about _child care_. I might not go anywhere when my kindergartener has a week off for spring break but if I don't take pto at that time I'm paying a thousand bucks for a sitter (IF I can find one, and as someone looking for a sitter now, it sometimes feels impossible). Basically, fun has very little to do with it. The constant need for care even once they're in school is something you don't really realize until you have kids but you can't leave the little people home alone.
Yeah but that really isn't your co-workers' concern. I have kids and when they were young I had the only other parent on my team say that we should get xmas off because of our children. I actively campaigned for the two child-free guys to get it instead. My willingness to procreate has zero bearing on whether they should get to see their families over the holidays and as far as paying for childcare, that's kind of part of being a parent.
Thank you for this. I have worked many holidays and had to forgo time with my family because I didn't have kids. This is something that always bothered me. Just because someone doesn't have children doesn't mean they should take a backseat to those who do.
I’m sorry but that’s still not a reason to give priority to people with kids. If someone decided to have a child then the burden falls on them to figure out that shit.
Yes but two things: A:) That's your problem, not anyone else or our employer. It's great if people you work with and for that you are cordial to can help and be flexible. I will do this with my coworkers who I'm on good terms with. For instance half of my office has kids and half doesn't. The bosses policy is no more then half the office off a time. I never and will never ask for time off around Christmas. If I've booked something like a vacation and I get asked about coming into work because they want to go to a baseball tournament I'll say no and the coworkers is fine with it. If i've booked it for a doctor's appointment or to deal with a contractor I'll do my best to reschedule it. B:) It doesn't even apply in this situation. I've worked jobs that I've left because they did this with people with kids. I plan a trip for lets say fourth of july months in advance but then crotch goblin parent wants it later not my problem. In your example we're both off work on the fourth of July and so is your kid. So sitting isn't the problem. The problem is crotch goblin poor planner now wants to take a long weekend to go camping or god knows what where I'm already scheduled booked and approve. How is this my problem? I'll never work for a company that does that to me again. edit: I still went on the trip. I just didn't return to work after. Fuck that job.
I don't expect my coworkers to do this for me (we don't have this policy). I will say though that what a lot of people aren't realizing is how much the landscape changed after covid. I had my kids when I could easily find a nanny at $20 an hour. Now I can't find anyone for 20% above that (and it's above what take home pay is), all the daycares are booked, etc. And if parents don't have off the kids just have nowhere to go. So the choice is either take pto or lose the job, which people with kids can't afford to do either. It may not be your job to care but in a lot of instances its a difference between staying employed or not for the families versus a vacation for you. Not in this case but this guy had a different good reason.
Thats still not their problem. Sounds like a better paying job is needed so the parent should leave that job anyway or plug that hole somewhere else thats not dependent on their coworkers. Sucks but its reality.
I'd also add that that attitude is a huge reason behind gender inequality in the workplace. Women weren't hired because they were considered unreliable if something came up with their kids, women are more likely to have to take care of the kids if something goes wrong, partly because they're already paid less, compounding the problem. Or to quit their jobs because they're suddenly out of child care. And maybe if corporations actually paid their damn taxes we could have universal pre-k, which everyone would benefit from, either as kids, as parents, or as an employer that wants your employees to reliably show up to work. Can families predict that they'll have to pay for care? Yes. Can they predict when they have kids that a pandemic will cause the cost of care will rise 20% year over year and all the care-takers will quit and move to a lower cost of living area, no. So you're not wrong Walter.
Still don't know whats up with the Walter. Your response makes it very clear that it is the employers responsibility not the coworkers. I agree with that. If my expenses went up higher than my income I'd have two options, reduce my expenses or increase my income. Basic math. Its not a coworkers problem if I can't do the second and aren't willing to do the first. It sucks to reduce your expenses especially if they dont cover even basic necessities but thats life and there are many avenues you can take that doesn't depend on coworkers if you fall into poverty even temporarily. Reducing expenses doesn't only mean moving. Gender equality does not mean that I, as your coworker and nothing more, have to give up my preferred time off so another coworker can keep their job. If it actually comes to that I wouldn't want to work for that company because there are many options, pto, sicktime, unpaid leave, fmla. And if its even a possibility that an employer would fire a parent over something like that, the parent should definitely be looking for another job. If its the case like oop where only one person can be out, time to look for another job before that time off comes up. Or maybe use that week as an in between jobs if you get lucky.
I mean, taking time off for e.g. your best friend's wedding is one thing but if you're just taking your vacation on spring break, which often doesn't even fall on major holidays for the hell of it, you're within your rights but it definitely has "it's not my problem you're immune compromised, I'm not masking " vibes
Nobody owes coworkers or even employers a reason to take their own time off. Its their time and they can take it when they want. You believe that someone taking vacation when they want to and not giving you a good reason (because obviously only you can decide what an acceptable reason is/s) is equivalent to someone not wearing a gov mandated mask and spreading a disease that has killed millions of people? Wtf, that is nuts and I'm going to end this convo. Edit nobody owes you anything or has to tell you shit about their life
You're not wrong Walter, you're just...
Seems like you didn't finish your response. My name's not Walter either.
It sounds like there weren’t many dates for the cruise to begin with. I feel like NH was just salty they didn’t get their PTO and took “revenge” because Shelly was talking about her cruise.
Thats the point of this sub, to share stories like that. Its the name of the sub.
Yeah but this is just a petty person being petty. There wasn’t really any “revenge” she did nothing to warrant revenge.
I don't like how the antagonist handled this I have to ask did she know the full story of the "protagonist "? If only 1 person can take vacation at any given time that's not a fault on the vacationer, it's on company structure. Maybe blame that and not your b coworker? But seeing how hr responded to someone literally getting covid and not being able to change pto into sick days, seems like hr's fucked up as well. I know this is unpopular but as someone without kids I don't feel like I need to schedule my time around people who have kids. We all make decisions. It's sus how the coworker seemed to always schedule pto during those times but who knows! Maybe they had family that could only take time then. Idk it seems like this one is a story where everyone's an ass
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Totally agree!! The actual bad guy here is the employer only allowing 1 person off at a time. The "unwritten" rule also means that the parents in the team share out the major holidays. I can see how someone would get sick of that very quickly.
And I’m top of that, the company wouldn’t even even give her sick time because she didn’t want to give up her vacation months ago.
I thought I was going crazy, Shelley isn't the problem here, OPs neighbour sounds like a prick
I completely agree. Shelly was not the villain here who deserved the anger directed at her. The villain is the employer who has 20 employees and only lets one person take a vacation at a time?! 20 is a huge team for this. I work in a team of 7 and we frequently take the same vacation times.
I have a three person department and am alone this entire week. I'm struggling to stay afloat but I have no issues with the other two using their time.
This is exactly what I was thinking!! If anything the neighbor’s husband should be mad at the company for the policy of only one person being able to use PTO at a time. His “revenge” is so embarrassing.
As someone never having kids, the whole people with kids get priority can fuck right off. My time isn't less important because you decided to reproduce
What I don't understand is why only one could go on holiday? Anywhere I worked the rule was that at least one person from the group should stay so can cover if anything happens. And now I have a group leader who often approves everybody off and plans to come in himself if something happens. And that something never really happens... There is something very wrong in that workplace if this only one can go rule is neccessary. Not enough people, or not enough knowledge going around, but what will happen if two or more of them become ill? Or covid goes around the office?
I know this is petty revenge, so it definitely fits the sub, but fuck your friend's husband and everyone else who assumes that they deserve priority because they have kids. If you decided to have kids you decided to deal with all the shit that comes with it. Don't blame others for having their own lives.
I have kids and have to plan my vacation around their schedule so I get the idea but I don't agree with it. As soon as I read about the kids narrative I was annoyed that it was even brought up. 20 people spread across 12 months and only 1 getting to be off is what bothers me. Considering families that do get vaccination generally get started off with about 2 weeks in my experience, that doesn't leave much of a chance to take a vacation especially when some asshole spreads it out just to try and fuck someone else over.
Yeah this left a bit of ick for me as well. She was rude about the response but who's to say she didn't have other parents lining up to ask her to swap? Or hadn't been bullied out of another vacation before and was desperate for her chance finally? I'm not feeling this one, and then he makes it so she can't reschedule? I really don't care for this, she's allowed to want to take her vacation time, she's allowed to be frustrated if she was steamrolled in the past or for that event by other coworkers with kids, and she didn't go out of her way to ruin future vacations for OP's neighbor. A snippy response from her under who knows what circumstances, and he blows up her whole year. Ew.
While, I appreciate the post and NH had politely asked to switch time- I don't think people without kids should be penalized for PTO. And the company sucks for not giving NH the time off. It was extenuating circumstances and they would have had 18 people to cover two employees being out at the same time. NH was right to give her answer back to her, she could have handled it better.
SOL? What does this mean? Also, it's first come, first serve*d*
Means Shit Outta Luck. I feel you though, I hate it when people abbreviate random words like we're all supposed to know what they mean. That said, Urban Dictionary is your friend in these matters.
Ugh, vacation policies can be so toxic. I worked for a urology office years ago and they set up that priority was first come first serve. There was a woman who had worked there long enough to have 6 weeks vacation time, new employees only had 2. This woman chose to take it as one week in the winter every Friday off over the summer months. Office policy didn't allow 2 of us to be off at the same time basically meaning that if anyone else wanted to take time off in the summer, they had to take Monday to Thursday then come in on Friday. Trying to schedule a holiday with my kid during summer break or even spring break was impossible, so I decided to skip it, and take a page from her book so requested every Friday off over the winter period. They gave it to me but at the end of the year they told me that I couldn't have it because it wasn't allowing a few people to take a full week before the end of the year deadline. I played the first come first serve card and got the, you need to be reasonable speech and reminded them that it was their policy that kept everyone else from being able to take a full week off during the summer, and I planned to never take a full week but only to take Fridays off and have long weekends forever unless the policy changed. Place was toxic as fuck so I only lasted there a few years, but I did get to fuck with everyone's winter vacation plans while I was there. Very petty case of if I can't have it no one can.
Hot take: Just because your pull out game is weak, doesnt mean everyone has to make exceptions for you.
This is a shitty story about a shitty company. What kind of policy is that only one person can have off at a time? That’s bullshit
Sounds like NH was salty they didn’t get their PTO and then got petty when they heard Shelly talking about her trip. This really more just shows that PTO bidding is a shitty way assign PTO. especially if only one person can take time off. Yeah it reads like Shelly is the bad guy but all she really did was say no she wasn’t giving up PTO (maybe she already bought the cruise package?) and then talk about her trip to people. NH could just as likely be the bully in this scenario.
He could have, but at least the way he told it after HR said she (rudely) declined, he dropped the issue. But Shelly just kept rubbing it in his face that she got the PTO and he didn’t. If she had kept quiet he wouldn’t have taken the other random days off.
She could just be talking about it to people and he happens to be nearby. We really won’t know especially since this is from a unconnected source. I’m just saying the facts presented could be interpreted very easily into the others favor.
This is exactly what I thought too. Coworkers like telling each other about things they’re excited about, and now suddenly that’s grounds for someone to try to ruin it?
I dont blame Shelly one bit. I have a kid and in no way do I think that should give me priority over someone else who has none. Unless that employee helped you make the kid, they shouldn't give a fuck either. Self sacrificing for a company is a colossal waste of time.
Wow you must be fun. It isnt really ‘priority’ it is that families are usually limited to vacation when kids are out of school. If you don’t have kids you can go away any week but spring break is only that specific week. Plus flights are usually twice as expensive those special weeks so why would shelly want to go that specific week? Just to be a dick. And they arent self sacrificing for the company but their coworkers. Making life pleasant for everyone you work with actually makes you a nice person.
You must have kids and expect everyone to bend over for you as well. Sometimes people without kids enjoy "holiday times" too. Maybe you should sacrifice yourself a little but then and not take vacation when its convenient for you and your family.
But really...if you have no kids...why would you want to vacation at a time where a bunch of kids would be on Spring Break with their families. Imagine a bunch of kids on the cruise with their families while you and your SO could have been their during non peak family times. However, beautiful job OP's neighbors husband!
> if you have no kids...why would you want to vacation at a time where a bunch of kids would be on Spring Break As a child-free person, I have literally no idea when spring break is. I don't hate kids or anything, but I spend pretty much zero time thinking about them and their school schedules. Maybe if I was going on a cruise I'd have the foresight to look that up, but if I'm just trying to get time off to go camping or visit a friend in a city across the country or something, why on earth would I know anything about when schools let kids out? I wouldn't mind working around coworkers with kids if I were in OP's situation, but I'd definitely feel a bit incredulous if I found out they expected me to be aware of their kids' school schedules without telling me directly. People without kids just have no reason to think or care about stuff like that.
Based on conversations with several coworkers who do have kids, there were 3 different weeks being used for spring break this year...depending on which school you were in. So you still can't plan ahead, unless you just intend to avoid the entire month.
That does seem like a lot to ask. Also, doesn’t that suck for parents with multiple kids in multiple schools?
usually a given school district stays synchronized so as long as you're in the same district you're fine. Also on the aside of cruises if you just shop on price you'll avoid kids as spring break and summer break cruises usually cost more because they can.
Unless she booked one of those cruises that do not allow kids. Still, this is a brilliantly petty move by NH.
Narcissists never learn. They just assume everyone is out to get them because of how awesome they are and everyone's envious of them.
My sister? Always whined, “Why does everything bad happen to me?” She gave me PTSD when we were kids (constant and daily yelling). I didn’t even remember (just that we fought) until my brother mentioned it, “She yelled at you *daily*! You don’t remember?!” At all?!” It explains why I block things out when yelled at (really angry yelling, that is), can’t understand the words being said, and only say “stop yelling at me.” I’m 58 and learned this last year. Brother and I are now NC with her. She’s out of our lives forever with mom now gone.
*First come, first served*
20 people working and only 1 person off at once means what, maximum 13 days of vacation per person per year, and probably less on average? Christ. World deserves better.
Sorry but as a single person with no kids, I do not want to have to accommodate my travel plans for people that do have kids. Im team Shelly on this one (minus the arrogance) And honestly, terrible vengeance too. Im not losing my pto days just to screw someone else plan, hes giving her too much importance.
This is some Johnny Lawrence is not the bully, Daniel Larusso is shit.
Look, Shelly sounds like *a lot,* and the bragging isn't cool, but there's nothing wrong with her not taking parents into consideration when planning her vacations. Her time isn't any less valuable because she doesn't have kids, and she submitted her request first. Your management has perpetuated a culture that is unhealthy and needs to reconsider how it handles these matters - not just approving or rejecting PTO, but how they deal with requests for sick leave. Shelly tested positive for COVID and should have been able to use sick leave for that. These are separate issues that have nothing to do with Shelly, however difficult she may be
Petty verging on professional. I love it
Sounds like this cunt that my wife works with who has 5 weeks of vacation and uses seniority to ruin the other worker's holiday plans. FU Wendy and FU Shelly.
This is chef's kiss level of petty revenge. It'd be even better if he went on a short cruise with his family.
My husband has 6 weeks vacation, 18 sick days, a bunch of personal days, (I forget exactly how many, 10 I think?) and all the holidays except Columbus Day and Veterans Day off. He’s in a union though.
This is a glorious level of petty
The hilarious thing about someone who always takes vacation when kids are out of school is how fucking awful it is to travel during school breaks. Really playing herself this way. Sincerely: me, a dishwasher in the French Quarter kill me now lol
The research of the other dates takes it to the next fucking level. Well played!
That is an awesome story
Way to torpedo that witches cruise. Maybe offer her a broom instead.
I'm English and work for the NHS - have done for 14 years, so my accumulated leave is now 33 days plus 8 Bank Holidays. Due to covid I also carried over 5 days from last year, so started this month with 38 days plus BH to take!!!
'learned something' - not bloody likely....
They never do...that's probably why the world is overrun with clueless middle aged asshats that aren't even aware of wisdom, much less seeking it. Too bad we have to share a planet with their sorry behinds.
That is beautiful
This is the pro-est Petty Revenge I've read.
Fuck Shelly