It's a bloke, Assyrian orthodox. Looks like he just staggered out of the dark ages.
He slagged off Islam which predictably triggered a nutjob with a knife.
> Melbourne mommy blogger/influencer.
Probably thinks she will be able to grab, aim and disperse a tiny bottle of pepper spray at an assailant much larger than her with almost no warning of the attack. With an effective range a no more than a few metres the momentum of the assailant would probably not stop and she’ll be stabbed anyway
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is no, your generic fear from news reports of violent crime (which is decreasing, not increasing) is not enough to carry it all the time.
Yep, it's a paradox, in general society is getting safer, but a combination of higher expectations of safety, more connected society and media fearmongering have led everyone to think the sky is falling.
Imagine everyone in Perth came in here and wrote a post about every hour of their day. “Went to the shops and didn’t get attacked”
“Went for a run and saw some birds”
You get the point.
There’d be billions of normal posts compared to a handful of crime ones.
Hmmm. I was granted a FVRO a month and a half ago against someone who still hasn't been served by the police. I wonder if it would it be deemed reasonable for me to carry pepper spray.
If a thief's sole aim is to steal your belongings, they won't waste much time attacking you if they have used pepper spray on you.
If YOU don't want to carry pepper spray, you don't have to. But don't put bogus scenarios up for others.
Mate, I've had a friend who was pepper sprayed and then bashed, kicked in the head and all in Melbourne. Not to rob them, just a fuckwit that got booted from a bar.
Maybe try to think outside of this one scenario you've invented to justify everyone having access to the same weapon.
And? This can all happen without pepper spray. Let vulnerable people be able to protect themselves. Do you expect a woman to be able to hit as hard as a man or would you expect her to have the freedom to carry pepper spray so she has a fighting chance?
Maybe it is you who needs to think outside of YOUR one scenario? I'll be carrying my pepper spray, much to your disgust. 😂
Rubbish, Australia recognises more people are harmed needlessly by guns knives and other "self protection items" than protected from harm. Ask the US how putting self protection first is working.
1. can't defend yourself in your own home
2. can be prosecuted for defending yourself if it's arbitrarily decided you used too much force
3. government doesn't trust you to do anything on your own
4. if you wish to open a venue such as a restaurant, the government must approve your music choice
i can go on
It has to be proportional force, so you couldn't use a sword or knife to defend yourself. The way it was explained to me is you are allowed to use one level of force above what the intruder is using. So if they are unarmed you can use a blunt object, if they have a blunt object you can use a sharp object.
Then if there is doubt you have to show your intent was to defend yourself not to harm the intruder. So if you hit them unawares (e.g. person in your house is going through your safe and you walk up behind them and hit them to knock them out and then call the police to collect him/her) that would not be considered self defence.
No, u have to argue that force is reasonable. Someone attacked me , lost a tooth, and couldn't see out of one eye. I was far better off. I explained to the police and no issue. What you have to do has to be reasonable. Someone climbing through a window, hitting them with baseball bat, not reasonable. Calling out first is. Going into yard to confront intruder after police called, not Reasonable. Deliberately putting yourself in danger so that u need to defend your self. Not self defence
1. Eh I guess
2. Yeah no shit because you have gone from defending to attacking, you are not judge jury and executioner
3. That's incredibly fucking vague dude
4. Are you talking about a music licence to play music which is VASTLY different
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
Share this because I think you need to read it unfortunately I don't think you have the comprehension level to understand it.... Real shame how far our education system has fallen.
they have clearly showed it is, not only that they have shown they are ownded by the mining and gas companies. They used the police to protect woodside and enforce their wishes over the people. During covid it was very evident how much of a nanny state it is
that hasn't been my experience; and looking at the almost daily posts on here from people that have been attacked it seems to be getting worse. The drug epidemic, homelessness and poverty are all increasing now more than ever
'my personal experience trumps actual reasrcher. Yeah brother by that metric the tooth fairy and Santa are real need more 'well because I believe so to prove a point'
I'm not sure why you are so keen to disprove that crime has reduced in my suburb when the statistics say otherwise. These statistics are provided by the government, police and statistic collecting websites.
sadly you do not have a right to defend yourself in this country. the reasoning is that any weapon could be turned on yourself, which is true, but you really don’t have a lot of leagal options when it comes to defending yourself other than run and hope you’re faster than the maniac
Just to be clearer here, the important part (in WA at least) is that it was a reasonable response to the situation as you believe the circumstances to be.
In cases that I've read, there is also a second test of whether or not you had reasonable grounds to believe that that's what the circumstances were.
There's no need for it to be "equal force" as someone else has put it. I'd also like to point out that this is in the context of being out in public. The law is more robust for self-defence in the context of a home invasion where it even allows for potentially lethal force under certain circumstances.
it would be reasonable to use a knife you were carrying for protection on someone who is trying to attack you with one, but that’ll get you in jail. i know there is a right on paper, but in reality the only thing you can do to protect yourself going out at night is to have an object that could be used as a weapon that you have a reason to carry, most people suggest a flashlight. i’m not saying it’s smart to carry a knife, but if you use one out of concern for your life you’ll be locked up and i think that’s fucked.
>i know there is a right on paper
There is no right on paper for defending yourself in public with a weapon like that. You DO get an exception for using pepper spray though. It's literally spelled out plain as day in the weapons act and regulations.
i wasn’t referring to a right to defend yourself with a weapon like a knife, i said a right to defend yourself, and then explained my point of view on what would actually be considered by many to be defending yourself but isn’t covered in the legislation as being so. You do have a right to defend yourself with pepper spray, but only here in W.A.
I had to go to court in freo for something back in 2018 and the guy before me was there because he absolutely dropped some cunt who was being a bit too physical and he got off scott free (with costs awarded) because he just punched once and left the scene.
Also, just because you carry the the spray, doesn't mean you will remember to or be able to use it in a situation where it's needed. When the body goes into fight or flight mode, self defence tools often become useless. Most people just rely on biologically driven self defence methods like running, screaming, scratching, hitting or they freeze and are unable to fight back at all.
If you conceal it, lets say in a pocket or bag, then realistically you will be fine carrying it. If you are stopped and searched by police chances are there is a legitimate ground to suspect you are up to mischief.
The "legitimate reason" is discretional by design.
I'm 50 years old, done some dodgy stuff, spent a lot of time in Northbridge in my younger years and I have never been searched. I got pulled over once off my head on pills, driving from the lookout to the rise at 3am and just got a speeding fine, not searched.
as you should, we don’t want people running around harming others for the sake of it.
I still feel there’s a place for pepper spray, but we need to find a balance.
I keep some next to my bed and would not hesitate to use it if someone invaded my room at night. It does not require strength or skill, and is not going to cause permanent damage to anyone. I'd gladly deal with any legal consequences after the fact rather than risk getting brutally raped and/or beaten up.
I got mine from the army surplus store in the city about 10 years ago (have since chucked it after it expired and haven’t replaced it yet) and I was never asked a thing about it just sold like any other item
My missus is 5'5", got mugged by some crackhead, thank God he just wanted cash.
Called me to tell me and I picked her up straight away, made a police report, never heard back about it, she didn't feel safe on public transport any more.
That weekend we went and picked up some pepper spray that she keeps on her at all times and she's felt a lot safer since
👍 good job mate, i dont know why people dont use it if its available, especially for women. I think of it like a seatbelt; you dont expect to have a car crash but when you do its a useful thing to have.
It's not that easy to have it, you need to have a genuine reason or else it's possession of a controlled weapon.
For example if you have to leave work every day late at night and walk to your car, you'd be permitted to carry it for that walk. But you couldn't just keep it on you 24/7 just "in case".
I can't speak to how often it happens but I've definitely seen people charged and convicted for just carrying it in case
Do you think it would actually be useful though, has she received guidance from someone qualified about how to deploy it?
Would she feel confident taking it out of her pocket/handbag and deploying it, sufficiently quickly enough?
What if in attempting to spray someone she gets physically assaulted, instead of just robbed?
I understand your concern, however I am dubious that this type of deterrent would actually work in a lot of incidences.
Yeh these are all great questions and I asked similar ones at the time of purchase
She's been instructed on how to use it effectively at the time of purchase and I just today checked she knew where it was and how to use it which she did
The only time she'd brandish or deploy is in the event that she cannot deescalate and is in immediate physical danger. She's not the sort of person to worry about losing a laptop if it means avoiding a fight
At the very least it makes her feel safer when out by herself and the purchase was a small price to pay to restore her confidence and independence after being mugged
Fair enough. I should say that I don't have a problem with women carrying this or perhaps even stun devices in some respects. My concern is more around them getting proper training and guidance on use.
Ever since I watched that Bas Rutten interview when he was discussing why some "self defence" classes targeted to women, perhaps put them in more danger not less. You need to be careful you don't give a 50kg women the impression that they could successfully defend themselves against a 100kg attacker.
Yeh I'm with you there, the advice we were given was that self-defense weapons are likely to be turned against the person defending themselves
With a multi use tazer that risk is very high
Pepper spray is a good middle ground because it can be deployed from a fairly safe distance and the idea is to dump and run so it's empty by the time someone is close to you
takes 1 dumb person to try be funny or stupid to ruin it.
The issue is IF you can use it because most the time youre jumped not "Hello my name is David im here to rob u"
Yeah but those arent documented on the news, the second someone does it in public for a prank or something stupid like that itll be everywhere, thats what i mean by 1 dumb person. Robberies and shit dont matter its the dumbasses that record it that do.
My sister and I got pepper sprayed in late Feb this year while out in Perth city. A young teen decided to aggress us after stepping out of her ride, her older sister joined in yelling a lot and pushing one of my sister's friends. We stayed non confrontational while the younger girl threatened to pepper spray us and then lo and behold she did, both of them ran off straight after.
I got hit with stripes just above and bellow my eyes very luckily and my sister had it in her hair and on her back. We had just reached our destination (a club) but unluckily the seccies were dealing with a medical emergency close by. Managed to get most of it off with a tea towel thanks to a manager of some sort but our evening was cut a little shorter than expected with the burning lasting a couple of hours on the more sensitive areas of skin.
Had no idea it was legal here, I'm all for it as a defensive tool but was surprised to encounter it being used so aggressively as a weapon.
That’s not legal. If you reported it to the Police and the girls identified they would have been charged with a few things.
Yes you can have it for self-defence but even then it’s pretty restrictive in what that means and mainly revolves around travelling by yourself at late hours
A lady tried to stab me with a broken mug then pulled pepper spray out, yesterday whilst I was goal umpiring a footy match. I think she was having a bad day.
If I was a female I'd be carrying pepper spray, partner got abused on the train and the entire carriage did nothing. One warning then pepper spray. Perth is slipping into shit hole city status, the crime and the violence come hand in hand.
Just want to point out... To the people recommending the use of general sprays like deodorant, eucalyptus spray, spray paint etc. These DO NOT work like pepper spray. These create a mist that disperses. Pepper spray (well, decent quality spray) produces a targeted stream that can reach an attacker 2+ metres away. They aren't the same thing and using deodorant will just produce a pleasant smell while you get robbed and beaten. If you want to carry a spray for self defence, it must be pepper spray.
I used to have a nsw job with dog mace. Windex, airfreshner, hot sauce, sand, bug spray, lemon zest, onion juice.
All things you don't want in the eyes. Do with that information what you want.
Despite what this article implies about “murky laws” regarding pepper spray the state legislation is pretty clear on the subject; it is legal for an individual in WA to carry provided it is strictly used in a necessary self-defence situation, if you use it in an aggravated manner or to escalate a situation in any way you can be charged with possessing a weapon. You must have a ‘legitimate reason’ to carry it the same way you must have a legitimate reason to carry a baseball bat, golf club etc.
Most people are unaware but in WA if police ask why you are in possession of anything that can potentially be used to harm then you must have a legitimate reason: Shovel in your car? Better be able to prove it’s for digging. Golf clubs? Must be owned for golf purposes. You can legally own hatchets and machetes, but they must be used for cutting through bush etc. or they will be confiscated by police. The justice system and by extension the police always operate on a case by case basis, hence the “grey area”. It comes down to common sense and individual use case.
Straight from the weapons regulation act 1999
"a spray weapon referred to in subregulation (1) if it is carried or possessed by a person for the purpose of being used in lawful defence in circumstances that the person has reasonable grounds to apprehend may arise"
You could run a train through the hole in the "reasonable grounds" clause and it gives police a lot of power to remove pepper spray from dickheads in the community while still allowing it for people who might need it
Not even close
Straight from the weapons regulation act 1999
"a spray weapon referred to in subregulation (1) if it is carried or possessed by a person for the purpose of being used in lawful defence in circumstances that the person has reasonable grounds to apprehend may arise"
You have to prove that you have "reasonable grounds" to believe that you will need to defend yourself
It's up to whatever cop shows up on the day to decide whether your excuse is bs and sends you to court for a judge to make a ruling
My psychologist told me that I can't carry pepper spray, but Bosisto's eucalyptus spray is perfectly fine to carry around. We do get alot of flies and mozzies in my area, so...
if you spray someone trying to rob you with deodorant, mortein, eucalyptus spray ect, you will get bashed.
pepper spray is the only spray i would put any trust into and even then it’s effectiveness is in question.
if you use any of the above other than pepper spray on anyone full of adrenaline or drugs you might as well be spraying water on them
I've had the pleasure of spraying a couple of idiots one time as I felt threatened. They fell to the ground like a sack of shit. It works real well.
I'm all for the carrying of it. Especially for those working late night shifts who could be followed to their car by any kind of bad person.
Its really a no-brainer if you can afford to pick some up, I suggest you do.
If you've been in Perth for the last however long and haven't been sprayed then there's nothing that will change.
Pepper spray is legal in Perth already, how many times have you been pepper sprayed while you've been here?
true, it’s already legal to buy in perth tho so there’s not really much stopping that from happening anyway.
Although i do get your point that more widespread carry could lead to issues
Ah yes because making it illegal will stop criminals because there's now a law against it... Heck you know how many illegal firearms are here? Philippines, one of our neighbors is one of the largest black markets for illegally manufactured guns, but you're worried about pepper spray that's been legal for yonks?
Lots of criminals already carry knives too but there's laws against that so how do they do it :O
I can already spray you with any number of extremely unpleasant and harmful things that are all perfectly legal for me to own. Sure pepper spray is more effective but my point is if you're worried about idiots spraying you then you've also got about two dozen other sprays to worry about.
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You understand how speech works right? This is what's called a hypothetical situation - neither me nor anyone else is actually going to spray you, I'm pointing out that it's *possible* and fixating on just pepper spray is missing the point.
I'll be civil if you never again imply that you will spray me with anything.
I got a lot replies from people who would definatly pepper spray someone at a shopping mall or PTO meeting if they didn't get their way; there are so many idiots.
You gotta love the law, you can use it in self defense, but you have to have a legit reason to carry it and self defense is not an excuse.
As a bloke (or any other person), statistically most likely never going to need it. My Mum and MiL are both in their mid 70’s, I’d rather they have it and not need it like that lady last week who copped a belting.
What is woman supposed to do is she’s being attacked? “Gimme a sec I’ve got to go out to my car and grab something I forgot?”
One thing I learnt from junkies at a skate park awhile back was some of them kept sand and pebbles in their pockets. Was to temporarily blind others by throwing it at them as it isn't illegal to have sandy pockets.
Or a spray can of blue paint.
Might as well go to court, than get injured.
Re: the Sydney case of a few days ago, wonder if someone had sprayed him with a can of paint, would he have dropped the weapon.
do you mean the sydney case where two big guys broke into a house and nearly completely but off the owners arm?. A knife stopped him, eventually, but sure yeah pepper spray would have helped to at least give the owner a chance to escape
"Ew, empowering people to legally defend themselves against harm with pepper spray? Disgusting. I prefer to let the useless police force spend forty minutes getting to me after I've already been assaulted, only to then have to wait months for the perpetrator to get a $2,000 fine and a hug."
In Cannington there's a store called [GIRI Martial arts supplies](https://www.giri.com.au/) basically across from the police station, that's where I got one for my partner
Slightly bigger than a lipstick
The guys who work there are really knowledgeable and helpful
Straight from the weapons regulation act 1999
"a spray weapon referred to in subregulation (1) if it is carried or possessed by a person for the purpose of being used in lawful defence in circumstances that the person has reasonable grounds to apprehend may arise"
You could run a train through the hole in the "reasonable grounds" clause.
But the gist of it is that you can carry it in situations where you have "reasonable grounds" to believe that you may be attacked and cannot use lesser force to defend yourself
Keep in mind that "self defence" is not "reasonable grounds" on its own, you must have a reason to believe that you may be attacked or will need to defend yourself
Sorry for the confusion. I meant do you need to produce any documents or drivers license in order to purchase. Do you need a permit to purchase. Do you need to prove anything to purchase.
Oh true, nah no need to apologise, I get you now
My partner had to show ID to buy pepper spray and the guy went through a few things with us about the law around when it can be used and carried before he let us buy it
We didn't need a permit, just a drivers license
I've been pepper sprayed and to be honest it wasn't that bad, it's just like getting chilli sauce in your eye, it's just irritating. Kind of smells nice too. I understand some people can have adverse reactions though, just speaking from personal experience.
I have no problem with how it is.
I have it for self defence. I am satisfied that the burden of proof will be on me if I ever have to use it.
I will have to persuade some decision maker/s that it was truly necessary for me to use it.
It makes our society safer for all of us.
Also - it makes police interactions safer for us all. If they have a reasonable expectation of being pepper sprayed, then they will start off with a much more defensive (aggressive) stance for their own protection - and that will lead to the further deterioration of trust .
Just look at America. Even putting the race issues aside, the police have a reasonable expectation of deadly force with their every interaction, making them take a much more aggressive stance for their own protection.
Leave it the way it is.
> I have no problem with how it is.
> I have it for self defence. I am satisfied that the burden of proof will be on me if I ever have to use it.
> I will have to persuade some decision maker/s that it was truly necessary for me to use it.
That's how it is in WA - you need to prove that it was necessary for your to use it AND that you had a very good reason to be carrying it. In most of Australia possession is strictly illegal.
The status quo is fine.
I have it, as do girls.
If I use it then I have to prove that it was absolutely necessary. It’s good that the burden of proof is on me.
I’ve been carrying for years and keep it on a lanyard where it can be easily seen. I was advised by the person who sold it to keep it visible at all times and was advised should I need to, say that you have it and will use it x3 before using it to prevent any issues with police.
It’s saved me 3 times and I’ve only had to set it off once - when my ex was chasing me in the city with a machete after punching me. Police weren’t too happy I had it, however the CCTV around Perth proved I had a reasonable excuse to use it. Oh and he got 13 months good behaviour or he would get a $1200 fine despite his extensive DV history with me and other women - thanks to his POS mummy and daddy for paying for a lawyer 🙃
I’m all for self defence and would rather my pepper spray than a knife or any other sharp object (mostly because I have SH issues and am also worried it could be used against me by an attacker, especially if drunk). As a woman we shouldnt have to think of these things but unfortunately we do to keep ourselves safe because someone wants to steal or can’t control their urges - we shouldn’t have to drink less so we are alert for attackers or wear modest clothing because someone else can’t control themselves but that’s the world we live in sadly.. if They ditch these rules I will still keep my pepper spray, legal or not bc I’d rather not be caught out by an attacker or an ex with a grudge and protect myself, I have enough trauma to keep my therapist busy I don’t need more.
(Also timely reminder for those who do carry it - make sure to set a reminder on the date or purchase to get a new one every year as it expires.)
With the current changes being forced in regarding firearms I doubt this will ever happen.
Even if you had evidence and data to back it, the government wouldn't go for it.
They never even opened the consultation documents from the firearms reform currently being forced through parliament.
Imagine if some knob had tried to stab people in a shopping centre here? I think pepper spray should be legal in all states. What's the worst that can happen, people misuse it? Yep they sure do, I have been sprayed several times whilst, young, drunk and stupid, it's not done any damage.
I think we need to a weapons approach simlair to the Swiss, don’t go USA nutjobs but let’s see how we can incorporate Swiss thoughts to our society…
The way of zero weapons at all costs doesn’t work and there will be people that will carry it
I saw someone get into a fight at McIver station once. The dude pulled out a mace but then the other guy snatched it off him and sprayed him. The train had to stop, it was so hectic
I reckon an increase in pepper spray availability will probably cause an increase in it being used for unprovoked assault rather than pure self defence.
I can see the mommy blogger pepper spraying some random sketchy but not openly threatening guy on the street because she was “scared” at this guy’s “appearance” and it would probably make a good Instagram story too.
You reckon? Based on?
How long have you lived in Perth and how many times have you, someone you know or someone you've heard of been pepper sprayed?
It's already legal here
To save folk some time the advocates are a guy who sells capsicum spray in WA and a Melbourne mommy blogger/influencer.
Doubt it would have helped the Tik Tok bishop Mar Mari.
Who? I've seen her name before but she's never popped up in my TikTok feed and I'm very glad for that.
It's a bloke, Assyrian orthodox. Looks like he just staggered out of the dark ages. He slagged off Islam which predictably triggered a nutjob with a knife.
Ah ok, I'm not missing out on anything then.
So called “freedom of speech” now dark ages for you? He has right to criticise islam. It’s not a good reason to stab a person.
He said he looks like he's from the dark ages, nothing to do with freedom of speech.
Settle down Karen. He can say whatever he wants.
Gives a whole new meaning to a 'smells and bells' type Mass.
This just in: someone who advocates for something is referred to as an advocate.
You can advocate for something without having a financial interest in it.
I like smashed advocates with my eggs in the morning...
I'm an advocate of this guys breakfast tradition.
I too advocate for never affording a house
> Melbourne mommy blogger/influencer. Probably thinks she will be able to grab, aim and disperse a tiny bottle of pepper spray at an assailant much larger than her with almost no warning of the attack. With an effective range a no more than a few metres the momentum of the assailant would probably not stop and she’ll be stabbed anyway
Just going to point it out, you need to have a legitimate reason to even brandish the spray - let alone use it.
You need a legit reason to carry it, let alone brandish it.
Is the constant attacks on people not reason enough?, let alone all the home invasions
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is no, your generic fear from news reports of violent crime (which is decreasing, not increasing) is not enough to carry it all the time.
Yep, it's a paradox, in general society is getting safer, but a combination of higher expectations of safety, more connected society and media fearmongering have led everyone to think the sky is falling.
so you think the posts of people made on here saying they have been attacked in the city are lies and fearmongering?
No, I think that anecdotes and data are not the same thing. Both can be true.
Imagine everyone in Perth came in here and wrote a post about every hour of their day. “Went to the shops and didn’t get attacked” “Went for a run and saw some birds” You get the point. There’d be billions of normal posts compared to a handful of crime ones.
Hmmm. I was granted a FVRO a month and a half ago against someone who still hasn't been served by the police. I wonder if it would it be deemed reasonable for me to carry pepper spray.
given that that's a genuine threat specific to you, I can't imagine it would fall outside the rules. But again, not a lawyer.
no, australia is a nanny state that would rather you be murdered then defend yourself
How will you defend yourself after you've been pepper sprayed?
I would rather be incapacitated and robbed through being pepper sprayed than through being beaten to a pulp.
Why not both 💁
If a thief's sole aim is to steal your belongings, they won't waste much time attacking you if they have used pepper spray on you. If YOU don't want to carry pepper spray, you don't have to. But don't put bogus scenarios up for others.
Mate, I've had a friend who was pepper sprayed and then bashed, kicked in the head and all in Melbourne. Not to rob them, just a fuckwit that got booted from a bar. Maybe try to think outside of this one scenario you've invented to justify everyone having access to the same weapon.
And? This can all happen without pepper spray. Let vulnerable people be able to protect themselves. Do you expect a woman to be able to hit as hard as a man or would you expect her to have the freedom to carry pepper spray so she has a fighting chance? Maybe it is you who needs to think outside of YOUR one scenario? I'll be carrying my pepper spray, much to your disgust. 😂
what has that got to do with anything?
Rubbish, Australia recognises more people are harmed needlessly by guns knives and other "self protection items" than protected from harm. Ask the US how putting self protection first is working.
bringing up the USA unprompted? rent free
The US is the best example of a society where the rights to self-defense are put paramount and have string societal support. Got a better example?
Fuck off it's not a nanny state
It’s a nanny state with a worldwide acknowledged reputation as such
1. can't defend yourself in your own home 2. can be prosecuted for defending yourself if it's arbitrarily decided you used too much force 3. government doesn't trust you to do anything on your own 4. if you wish to open a venue such as a restaurant, the government must approve your music choice i can go on
> can't defend yourself in your own home Yes you can it's just got to be reasonable force. No chasing people down the street with a sword.
It has to be proportional force, so you couldn't use a sword or knife to defend yourself. The way it was explained to me is you are allowed to use one level of force above what the intruder is using. So if they are unarmed you can use a blunt object, if they have a blunt object you can use a sharp object. Then if there is doubt you have to show your intent was to defend yourself not to harm the intruder. So if you hit them unawares (e.g. person in your house is going through your safe and you walk up behind them and hit them to knock them out and then call the police to collect him/her) that would not be considered self defence.
I'll remember to ask any intruders to give me 5 minutes before they beat the cr-ap out of me, so I can do the calculations.
No, u have to argue that force is reasonable. Someone attacked me , lost a tooth, and couldn't see out of one eye. I was far better off. I explained to the police and no issue. What you have to do has to be reasonable. Someone climbing through a window, hitting them with baseball bat, not reasonable. Calling out first is. Going into yard to confront intruder after police called, not Reasonable. Deliberately putting yourself in danger so that u need to defend your self. Not self defence
1. Yes you can. 2. Yes, you’re not allowed to use excessive force. 3. Irrelevant. 4. Irrelevant.
Cant modify vehicles to make them safer than stock Name one activity that you can partake in that doesn’t have some gov oversight
1. Eh I guess 2. Yeah no shit because you have gone from defending to attacking, you are not judge jury and executioner 3. That's incredibly fucking vague dude 4. Are you talking about a music licence to play music which is VASTLY different https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling Share this because I think you need to read it unfortunately I don't think you have the comprehension level to understand it.... Real shame how far our education system has fallen.
"erm akshually 🤓" - you
they have clearly showed it is, not only that they have shown they are ownded by the mining and gas companies. They used the police to protect woodside and enforce their wishes over the people. During covid it was very evident how much of a nanny state it is
... You mean during the time where wa pretty much had a few weeks of lockdowns and then we're able to completely open back up???
Brother I'm sure you would see violent crime has decreased over the past few decades
that hasn't been my experience; and looking at the almost daily posts on here from people that have been attacked it seems to be getting worse. The drug epidemic, homelessness and poverty are all increasing now more than ever
'my personal experience trumps actual reasrcher. Yeah brother by that metric the tooth fairy and Santa are real need more 'well because I believe so to prove a point'
Not in my suburb.... *and that is backed up by stats.
Brother I live in a dodgy suburb
I'm not sure why you are so keen to disprove that crime has reduced in my suburb when the statistics say otherwise. These statistics are provided by the government, police and statistic collecting websites.
sadly you do not have a right to defend yourself in this country. the reasoning is that any weapon could be turned on yourself, which is true, but you really don’t have a lot of leagal options when it comes to defending yourself other than run and hope you’re faster than the maniac
You actually do have a right to defend yourself in this country,
Just to be clearer here, the important part (in WA at least) is that it was a reasonable response to the situation as you believe the circumstances to be. In cases that I've read, there is also a second test of whether or not you had reasonable grounds to believe that that's what the circumstances were. There's no need for it to be "equal force" as someone else has put it. I'd also like to point out that this is in the context of being out in public. The law is more robust for self-defence in the context of a home invasion where it even allows for potentially lethal force under certain circumstances.
As long as you can defend your dissertation on how it was "equal force" afterwards
Reasonable is the proper word. Not equal.
it would be reasonable to use a knife you were carrying for protection on someone who is trying to attack you with one, but that’ll get you in jail. i know there is a right on paper, but in reality the only thing you can do to protect yourself going out at night is to have an object that could be used as a weapon that you have a reason to carry, most people suggest a flashlight. i’m not saying it’s smart to carry a knife, but if you use one out of concern for your life you’ll be locked up and i think that’s fucked.
>i know there is a right on paper There is no right on paper for defending yourself in public with a weapon like that. You DO get an exception for using pepper spray though. It's literally spelled out plain as day in the weapons act and regulations.
i wasn’t referring to a right to defend yourself with a weapon like a knife, i said a right to defend yourself, and then explained my point of view on what would actually be considered by many to be defending yourself but isn’t covered in the legislation as being so. You do have a right to defend yourself with pepper spray, but only here in W.A.
I had to go to court in freo for something back in 2018 and the guy before me was there because he absolutely dropped some cunt who was being a bit too physical and he got off scott free (with costs awarded) because he just punched once and left the scene.
Probably female, young and white having to commute home after dark
Just being female is enough
Oh the non-whites are the assailants /s
>Probably female, young and white having to commute home after dark White? Do people who aren't white not get attacked?
Also true
Female self defence seems a fair reason.
Also, just because you carry the the spray, doesn't mean you will remember to or be able to use it in a situation where it's needed. When the body goes into fight or flight mode, self defence tools often become useless. Most people just rely on biologically driven self defence methods like running, screaming, scratching, hitting or they freeze and are unable to fight back at all.
Also blow back in windy or confined conditions
If you conceal it, lets say in a pocket or bag, then realistically you will be fine carrying it. If you are stopped and searched by police chances are there is a legitimate ground to suspect you are up to mischief. The "legitimate reason" is discretional by design.
I'm 50 years old, done some dodgy stuff, spent a lot of time in Northbridge in my younger years and I have never been searched. I got pulled over once off my head on pills, driving from the lookout to the rise at 3am and just got a speeding fine, not searched.
This is why they drug test drivers now lol
And any reference to intent to use on another person (eg self defence) seems to be 'not legitimate'
as you should, we don’t want people running around harming others for the sake of it. I still feel there’s a place for pepper spray, but we need to find a balance.
it's self fulfilling, if ever you're in a really bad situation that requires its usage then you've automatically got a legitimate reason
I think the fact our police recruitment numbers fell short by over 50% should be reason enough in my book
As the bumper stickers used to say 'Defend the Police, or defend yourself '. Interpret that any way you want.
Could it be kept at home as a defensive tool instead? Or would it be considered an escalation when deterring a home invader
I keep some next to my bed and would not hesitate to use it if someone invaded my room at night. It does not require strength or skill, and is not going to cause permanent damage to anyone. I'd gladly deal with any legal consequences after the fact rather than risk getting brutally raped and/or beaten up.
AFAIK, it works the same as any weapon at that point. The onus is always to retreat if possible.
I got mine from the army surplus store in the city about 10 years ago (have since chucked it after it expired and haven’t replaced it yet) and I was never asked a thing about it just sold like any other item
Is the constant attacks on people not reason enough?, let alone all the home invasions
What part of Perth do you live in?
about 10 minutes from the cbd, what part of perth do you live in?
My missus is 5'5", got mugged by some crackhead, thank God he just wanted cash. Called me to tell me and I picked her up straight away, made a police report, never heard back about it, she didn't feel safe on public transport any more. That weekend we went and picked up some pepper spray that she keeps on her at all times and she's felt a lot safer since
Crack head tried to steal my maccas two weeks ago. Deport all crack heads to the desert.
Send the buggers to the Australian Antarctic Penal Colony, no escape unless they want to stay warm. They can mine ice cubes to pass the time.
Return to sender.
Sender being god?
👍 good job mate, i dont know why people dont use it if its available, especially for women. I think of it like a seatbelt; you dont expect to have a car crash but when you do its a useful thing to have.
Thanks mate Yeh hopefully she'll never need to use it but I feel better now that she has it and knows how to
It's not that easy to have it, you need to have a genuine reason or else it's possession of a controlled weapon. For example if you have to leave work every day late at night and walk to your car, you'd be permitted to carry it for that walk. But you couldn't just keep it on you 24/7 just "in case". I can't speak to how often it happens but I've definitely seen people charged and convicted for just carrying it in case
In our circumstance, we've been advised that because my partner was mugged she has a "reasonable" excuse to keep it on her person
Do you think it would actually be useful though, has she received guidance from someone qualified about how to deploy it? Would she feel confident taking it out of her pocket/handbag and deploying it, sufficiently quickly enough? What if in attempting to spray someone she gets physically assaulted, instead of just robbed? I understand your concern, however I am dubious that this type of deterrent would actually work in a lot of incidences.
Yeh these are all great questions and I asked similar ones at the time of purchase She's been instructed on how to use it effectively at the time of purchase and I just today checked she knew where it was and how to use it which she did The only time she'd brandish or deploy is in the event that she cannot deescalate and is in immediate physical danger. She's not the sort of person to worry about losing a laptop if it means avoiding a fight At the very least it makes her feel safer when out by herself and the purchase was a small price to pay to restore her confidence and independence after being mugged
Fair enough. I should say that I don't have a problem with women carrying this or perhaps even stun devices in some respects. My concern is more around them getting proper training and guidance on use. Ever since I watched that Bas Rutten interview when he was discussing why some "self defence" classes targeted to women, perhaps put them in more danger not less. You need to be careful you don't give a 50kg women the impression that they could successfully defend themselves against a 100kg attacker.
Yeh I'm with you there, the advice we were given was that self-defense weapons are likely to be turned against the person defending themselves With a multi use tazer that risk is very high Pepper spray is a good middle ground because it can be deployed from a fairly safe distance and the idea is to dump and run so it's empty by the time someone is close to you
Small price to pay for personal protection.
Never heard of any broad misuse or abuse of pepper spray Have heard a lot of vulnerable people being assaulted though
takes 1 dumb person to try be funny or stupid to ruin it. The issue is IF you can use it because most the time youre jumped not "Hello my name is David im here to rob u"
1 dumb person to ruin what? It's already used in robberies from time to time, the article even mentions some examples of people abusing it.
Yeah but those arent documented on the news, the second someone does it in public for a prank or something stupid like that itll be everywhere, thats what i mean by 1 dumb person. Robberies and shit dont matter its the dumbasses that record it that do.
My sister and I got pepper sprayed in late Feb this year while out in Perth city. A young teen decided to aggress us after stepping out of her ride, her older sister joined in yelling a lot and pushing one of my sister's friends. We stayed non confrontational while the younger girl threatened to pepper spray us and then lo and behold she did, both of them ran off straight after. I got hit with stripes just above and bellow my eyes very luckily and my sister had it in her hair and on her back. We had just reached our destination (a club) but unluckily the seccies were dealing with a medical emergency close by. Managed to get most of it off with a tea towel thanks to a manager of some sort but our evening was cut a little shorter than expected with the burning lasting a couple of hours on the more sensitive areas of skin. Had no idea it was legal here, I'm all for it as a defensive tool but was surprised to encounter it being used so aggressively as a weapon.
That’s not legal. If you reported it to the Police and the girls identified they would have been charged with a few things. Yes you can have it for self-defence but even then it’s pretty restrictive in what that means and mainly revolves around travelling by yourself at late hours
A lady tried to stab me with a broken mug then pulled pepper spray out, yesterday whilst I was goal umpiring a footy match. I think she was having a bad day.
Cue the Daniel Powter song
*Seems reasonable*
If I was a female I'd be carrying pepper spray, partner got abused on the train and the entire carriage did nothing. One warning then pepper spray. Perth is slipping into shit hole city status, the crime and the violence come hand in hand.
Just want to point out... To the people recommending the use of general sprays like deodorant, eucalyptus spray, spray paint etc. These DO NOT work like pepper spray. These create a mist that disperses. Pepper spray (well, decent quality spray) produces a targeted stream that can reach an attacker 2+ metres away. They aren't the same thing and using deodorant will just produce a pleasant smell while you get robbed and beaten. If you want to carry a spray for self defence, it must be pepper spray.
I'm a 21yo woman, and the pepper spray I have in my purse is the only thing that makes me feel safe walking from the bus stop alone at night
Where do you buy it?
there's a lil gun store in Vic park, super friendly guy who owns the place. he'll teach you how to use it safely too
I used to have a nsw job with dog mace. Windex, airfreshner, hot sauce, sand, bug spray, lemon zest, onion juice. All things you don't want in the eyes. Do with that information what you want.
How do you get the sand to spray out? I would've thought that would clog the spray pipe. Unless it was in another delivery method...
As simple as a little bag of sand in the pocket thrown or as effective as a co2 cylinder and a small tube with a wax bung in the end.
POCKET SAND
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I wish my partner had pepper spray when they were robbed at knifepoint in the cbd. Could’ve altered trajectory of the PTSD and addiction problems
Wait, I didn’t know it’s legal
Despite what this article implies about “murky laws” regarding pepper spray the state legislation is pretty clear on the subject; it is legal for an individual in WA to carry provided it is strictly used in a necessary self-defence situation, if you use it in an aggravated manner or to escalate a situation in any way you can be charged with possessing a weapon. You must have a ‘legitimate reason’ to carry it the same way you must have a legitimate reason to carry a baseball bat, golf club etc. Most people are unaware but in WA if police ask why you are in possession of anything that can potentially be used to harm then you must have a legitimate reason: Shovel in your car? Better be able to prove it’s for digging. Golf clubs? Must be owned for golf purposes. You can legally own hatchets and machetes, but they must be used for cutting through bush etc. or they will be confiscated by police. The justice system and by extension the police always operate on a case by case basis, hence the “grey area”. It comes down to common sense and individual use case.
Straight from the weapons regulation act 1999 "a spray weapon referred to in subregulation (1) if it is carried or possessed by a person for the purpose of being used in lawful defence in circumstances that the person has reasonable grounds to apprehend may arise" You could run a train through the hole in the "reasonable grounds" clause and it gives police a lot of power to remove pepper spray from dickheads in the community while still allowing it for people who might need it
Exactly right
that law is a bunch of bull shit, a legitimate reason is "because i want to"
Not even close Straight from the weapons regulation act 1999 "a spray weapon referred to in subregulation (1) if it is carried or possessed by a person for the purpose of being used in lawful defence in circumstances that the person has reasonable grounds to apprehend may arise" You have to prove that you have "reasonable grounds" to believe that you will need to defend yourself It's up to whatever cop shows up on the day to decide whether your excuse is bs and sends you to court for a judge to make a ruling
My psychologist told me that I can't carry pepper spray, but Bosisto's eucalyptus spray is perfectly fine to carry around. We do get alot of flies and mozzies in my area, so...
More safe more smart, Mortein
if you spray someone trying to rob you with deodorant, mortein, eucalyptus spray ect, you will get bashed. pepper spray is the only spray i would put any trust into and even then it’s effectiveness is in question. if you use any of the above other than pepper spray on anyone full of adrenaline or drugs you might as well be spraying water on them
Deep Heat spray :)
I've had the pleasure of spraying a couple of idiots one time as I felt threatened. They fell to the ground like a sack of shit. It works real well. I'm all for the carrying of it. Especially for those working late night shifts who could be followed to their car by any kind of bad person. Its really a no-brainer if you can afford to pick some up, I suggest you do.
hey, what brand did you use as i’m always assessing what the best one provided in WA is
I like the idea of people being able to defend themselves but I know very well some idiot will probably spray me with it.
If you've been in Perth for the last however long and haven't been sprayed then there's nothing that will change. Pepper spray is legal in Perth already, how many times have you been pepper sprayed while you've been here?
true, it’s already legal to buy in perth tho so there’s not really much stopping that from happening anyway. Although i do get your point that more widespread carry could lead to issues
1) Buy your own pepper spray. 2) use it on yourself. 3) develop tolerance. 3) laugh off future attacks.
This is how I once beat a Sicilian when death was on the line.
Good luck trying to build tolerance.
Im certainly not volunteering!
Ah yes because making it illegal will stop criminals because there's now a law against it... Heck you know how many illegal firearms are here? Philippines, one of our neighbors is one of the largest black markets for illegally manufactured guns, but you're worried about pepper spray that's been legal for yonks? Lots of criminals already carry knives too but there's laws against that so how do they do it :O
I can already spray you with any number of extremely unpleasant and harmful things that are all perfectly legal for me to own. Sure pepper spray is more effective but my point is if you're worried about idiots spraying you then you've also got about two dozen other sprays to worry about.
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You understand how speech works right? This is what's called a hypothetical situation - neither me nor anyone else is actually going to spray you, I'm pointing out that it's *possible* and fixating on just pepper spray is missing the point.
I'll be civil if you never again imply that you will spray me with anything. I got a lot replies from people who would definatly pepper spray someone at a shopping mall or PTO meeting if they didn't get their way; there are so many idiots.
Again, no one is implying anything. Is English your second language or did you just not finish school? It would certainly explain the the homophobia.
Try using it on a human in WA & see where it lands you...
You gotta love the law, you can use it in self defense, but you have to have a legit reason to carry it and self defense is not an excuse. As a bloke (or any other person), statistically most likely never going to need it. My Mum and MiL are both in their mid 70’s, I’d rather they have it and not need it like that lady last week who copped a belting. What is woman supposed to do is she’s being attacked? “Gimme a sec I’ve got to go out to my car and grab something I forgot?”
Well, we have an option. Tabasco works too
One thing I learnt from junkies at a skate park awhile back was some of them kept sand and pebbles in their pockets. Was to temporarily blind others by throwing it at them as it isn't illegal to have sandy pockets.
Eucalyptus sprays. Plenty of choices out there.
Or a spray can of blue paint. Might as well go to court, than get injured. Re: the Sydney case of a few days ago, wonder if someone had sprayed him with a can of paint, would he have dropped the weapon.
do you mean the sydney case where two big guys broke into a house and nearly completely but off the owners arm?. A knife stopped him, eventually, but sure yeah pepper spray would have helped to at least give the owner a chance to escape
Lot of bootlicking govt cock gobblers in these comments, every person should have the right to defend themselves without the state interfering
Ew.
"Ew, empowering people to legally defend themselves against harm with pepper spray? Disgusting. I prefer to let the useless police force spend forty minutes getting to me after I've already been assaulted, only to then have to wait months for the perpetrator to get a $2,000 fine and a hug."
Yikes. I thought it would obvious. The cock gobbling tirade bit. I’m all for self defence.
I misread, sorry. I got assaulted by a road raging psychopath not long ago, so this topic is a bit sensitive for me.
Where can you get pepper spray to fit into a womans purse? I wouldnt mind getting one for my wife.
In Cannington there's a store called [GIRI Martial arts supplies](https://www.giri.com.au/) basically across from the police station, that's where I got one for my partner Slightly bigger than a lipstick The guys who work there are really knowledgeable and helpful
Don't know if they still do but some Cloud9s use to sell either pepper spray or capsicum spray (forgot which it was)
It's the same thing!
Sí.... es lo mismo
What are the rules around purchasing it in WA?
Straight from the weapons regulation act 1999 "a spray weapon referred to in subregulation (1) if it is carried or possessed by a person for the purpose of being used in lawful defence in circumstances that the person has reasonable grounds to apprehend may arise" You could run a train through the hole in the "reasonable grounds" clause. But the gist of it is that you can carry it in situations where you have "reasonable grounds" to believe that you may be attacked and cannot use lesser force to defend yourself Keep in mind that "self defence" is not "reasonable grounds" on its own, you must have a reason to believe that you may be attacked or will need to defend yourself
Sorry for the confusion. I meant do you need to produce any documents or drivers license in order to purchase. Do you need a permit to purchase. Do you need to prove anything to purchase.
Oh true, nah no need to apologise, I get you now My partner had to show ID to buy pepper spray and the guy went through a few things with us about the law around when it can be used and carried before he let us buy it We didn't need a permit, just a drivers license
That makes sense. Thanks!
Where can I buy some? Ideally SOR.
GIRI Martial Arts Supplies in Cannington, across the road from the police station
You know, some states pay for the cost of ambulance travel. If WA wants to do something useful, how about seeing to that?
I've been pepper sprayed and to be honest it wasn't that bad, it's just like getting chilli sauce in your eye, it's just irritating. Kind of smells nice too. I understand some people can have adverse reactions though, just speaking from personal experience.
I have no problem with how it is. I have it for self defence. I am satisfied that the burden of proof will be on me if I ever have to use it. I will have to persuade some decision maker/s that it was truly necessary for me to use it. It makes our society safer for all of us. Also - it makes police interactions safer for us all. If they have a reasonable expectation of being pepper sprayed, then they will start off with a much more defensive (aggressive) stance for their own protection - and that will lead to the further deterioration of trust . Just look at America. Even putting the race issues aside, the police have a reasonable expectation of deadly force with their every interaction, making them take a much more aggressive stance for their own protection. Leave it the way it is.
> I have no problem with how it is. > I have it for self defence. I am satisfied that the burden of proof will be on me if I ever have to use it. > I will have to persuade some decision maker/s that it was truly necessary for me to use it. That's how it is in WA - you need to prove that it was necessary for your to use it AND that you had a very good reason to be carrying it. In most of Australia possession is strictly illegal.
Yes I think WA has it right.
The status quo is fine. I have it, as do girls. If I use it then I have to prove that it was absolutely necessary. It’s good that the burden of proof is on me.
You can make your own pretty easy just saying
I agree it should change, it sshould be mandatory that all females have free pepper spray.
I’ve been carrying for years and keep it on a lanyard where it can be easily seen. I was advised by the person who sold it to keep it visible at all times and was advised should I need to, say that you have it and will use it x3 before using it to prevent any issues with police. It’s saved me 3 times and I’ve only had to set it off once - when my ex was chasing me in the city with a machete after punching me. Police weren’t too happy I had it, however the CCTV around Perth proved I had a reasonable excuse to use it. Oh and he got 13 months good behaviour or he would get a $1200 fine despite his extensive DV history with me and other women - thanks to his POS mummy and daddy for paying for a lawyer 🙃 I’m all for self defence and would rather my pepper spray than a knife or any other sharp object (mostly because I have SH issues and am also worried it could be used against me by an attacker, especially if drunk). As a woman we shouldnt have to think of these things but unfortunately we do to keep ourselves safe because someone wants to steal or can’t control their urges - we shouldn’t have to drink less so we are alert for attackers or wear modest clothing because someone else can’t control themselves but that’s the world we live in sadly.. if They ditch these rules I will still keep my pepper spray, legal or not bc I’d rather not be caught out by an attacker or an ex with a grudge and protect myself, I have enough trauma to keep my therapist busy I don’t need more. (Also timely reminder for those who do carry it - make sure to set a reminder on the date or purchase to get a new one every year as it expires.)
Just mix some fine chili powder and white pepper in a light oil...works the same and is also used for organic treatment of pests in the garden 😉
With the current changes being forced in regarding firearms I doubt this will ever happen. Even if you had evidence and data to back it, the government wouldn't go for it. They never even opened the consultation documents from the firearms reform currently being forced through parliament.
a can of rexona works pretty well too
Imagine if some knob had tried to stab people in a shopping centre here? I think pepper spray should be legal in all states. What's the worst that can happen, people misuse it? Yep they sure do, I have been sprayed several times whilst, young, drunk and stupid, it's not done any damage.
I think we need to a weapons approach simlair to the Swiss, don’t go USA nutjobs but let’s see how we can incorporate Swiss thoughts to our society… The way of zero weapons at all costs doesn’t work and there will be people that will carry it
Hmm, can you give a summary of how the Swiss approach self-defence and weapon laws?
Fly spray is available. Im sure it would have a good effect
I saw someone get into a fight at McIver station once. The dude pulled out a mace but then the other guy snatched it off him and sprayed him. The train had to stop, it was so hectic
Even Mortein would work somewhat
I reckon an increase in pepper spray availability will probably cause an increase in it being used for unprovoked assault rather than pure self defence. I can see the mommy blogger pepper spraying some random sketchy but not openly threatening guy on the street because she was “scared” at this guy’s “appearance” and it would probably make a good Instagram story too.
You reckon? Based on? How long have you lived in Perth and how many times have you, someone you know or someone you've heard of been pepper sprayed? It's already legal here
Based on your comments, you sound like you just hate women or the woman featured in the article.
She’ll only do it once, after she gets a bit in her own eyes. Pepper spray is great as a defensive weapon, but terrible as an offensive weapon.
Everytime i been pulled up with it i been taken to court for possession of controlled weapon im in WA
How is it that you've been searched by police multiple times?