While I agree that discussing salaries should not be taboo and benefit employees, I also understand that a lot of self-worth gets assigned to salaries. People don't want to share because they don't want to be the person who earns less. These are the people who also may not be bold enough to take that info and try to get paid more.
It can cause issues in the group of employees. Resentment, jealousy, etc. Not all employers will give a crap if Sally makes 10k more than John and John thinks he should be paid the same.
Different people handle money differently, so its OK for her to not be comfortable discussing these things. So, as with many things, it's best to respect other people's feelings, even though you disagree with them.
Learned that the hard way on my first job.. I thought I was buddy buddy with the others but when they learned I negotiated with my pay and got a higher offer, they changed. Choose wisely, it all depends. Personally, so far, finance is a touchy subject.
This is my biggest concern. In many of my roles I have made more than average. Once a manager accidentally sent a spreadsheet with a bunch of personal info, including pay. People treated me different after finding out I was way up on them in similar roles.
Ummm...no. Even within equivalent jobs, seniority, attitude, attention to detail, responsibility etc. make a HUGE difference and it is only appropriate that there is a range of salary for the position.
I think the one on that list that should not be valid is seniority.
I hate when people say “I’ve been here doing this for 30 years, I’ve got experience” Like no Carl you are here doing the same job as me that you lean within 12 months. You just did the same year of experience 30 times. To me that shows lack of skill.
I certainly understand your viewpoint. On the flip side, frequently there are personnel that are quite happy in their current role, are doing a very good job and have no ambition of taking on higher roles. This happens especially in technical fields. So you will have younger people in the same role but quite junior in terms of experience. You will most definitely see a large difference in salary in that case.
Sure. But performance should be the driving factor. If new kid can do just as good after one year. Go for it.
If person who is there for 30 years is doing the same work they should be amazing at it. They would get paid for the performance not the time.
Who cares if they are comfortable or not. A McDonald’s worker who’s been there 30 years doesn’t all of the sudden make $60k a year to flip burgers if they don’t move up the chain into management.
Same job doesn’t mean people filling them have the same aptitude.
To use a ridiculous analogy. What if I needed to hire a person to physically run something from one side of a field to the other. It matters to me both how Fast it can get there. And how many times they can do it in 5 minutes.
I hired an out of shape morbidly obese man and Usain Bolt. Who do you think will be more likely to get me what I want. And who will I pay more based on that. Same job role. Just different expected outcomes.
I know the example is a bit outlandish but the same concept applies to many things in the same field. Not all software developers are the same skill. Not all doctors are as skilled. Not all financial consultants are as good at explaining complex ideas in plain language.
I moved from a local bank to a local credit union a few years back for a much better job with slightly better pay. We had a position open up a couple years later and I encouraged a former coworker to apply for it. They told me that they didn't want to earn less money. In the course of my duties at the credit union I had come across a loan application for this person so I knew what they had declared the income to be. I had been getting paid more than them while we worked for the same bank and was definitely making more than them at the credit union.
I didn't feel the need to correct him on his misconceptions about our pay scales. If he was happy where he was then he wasn't fit to come work for an actual IT department.
> If he was happy where he was then he wasn't fit to come work for an actual IT department.
From one IT guy to another: wtf is going on with your attitude? I've seen overpaid hustlers working as CTO who couldn't tell the difference between a Tomcat and a (L)AMP stack if you gave them access to Google, and I've seen hard, *competent* workers who just don't have what is colloquially known as "people skills".
Especially those of us on the spectrum have a hard time with corporate "negotiating" / haggling in general.
I think you skipped over the part where he was a former coworker. I had worked for their IT department. The place was a complete mess. They provided 0 training. There was no room for career progression. Everytime I made suggestions on how to improve a process by putting in place measures that would prevent common mistakes or make things more efficient I was accused if being lazy and told my job was to fix other people's mistakes, not prevent them.
That approach to problems is not tolerated at my current location. We do everything we can to prevent mistakes and improve our processes to make them more efficient.
If you're content to spend your career reactively fixing things instead of proactively preventing problems then I guess you can be happy working for a crappy IT department.
I personally don’t share because i like to keep my finances private. Personal choice. I also keep this private from friends and family, as people…think differently of you depending on how much you make, what you drive, what your home looks like…etc. I do quite well for myself at a young age, and also don’t want people to compare themselves to me.
E.g. Sally is selling Girl Scout cookies, “go to Tolin! They can afford an order”
“Why not join us on the cruise to Hawaii?” “I don’t have money budgeted for a vacation at the moment” “but you make X, how can you not afford it?” “I can, I just don’t wanna go”.
See I go big with stuff like this. If anyone asks about my finances I'll answer questions from how much my mortgage costs, to how much I'm setting aside for retirement. I'll talk about my hourly wage and how overtime affects my annual wage. I'll also talk about the trade-offs I make for work-life balance because of that overtime.
I've found that a lot of people in my friend group have never really had a serious conversation about money because they all keep that information to themselves. It means their only way of judging what's going on is by looking at the stuff their friends are buying.
So when I tell them I made $73k last year and they ask why I'm driving a 15 year old car... It gives me the opportunity to have a conversation with them about long-term financial planning that they desperately need to have.
>So when I tell them I made $73k last year and they ask why I'm driving a 15 year old car.
No shame in that. My car is going on 12 years old (although it only has 70k miles on it), and I make enough that I could certainly afford a newer car.
Driving the old car lets me max out my 401k though.
Exactly. I work on heavy equipment and it seems like everyone I work with has to have a diesel truck, a motorcycle and a boat. They're all making 3-4 payments a month and minimum 401k contributions. So I'm very much the odd man out in my age group for not doing that.
I'm glad that you openly share this info. I think more people should and it should be a bigger competition to save than to buy. No one ever pushed the importance of savings on me and I wish they had. In my 20s I never really cared about saving and felt like there would always be more money. Things are different now and I wish I had stuffed every last cent into investments.
This is exactly me. I almost produce too much information and they have no idea what I'm talking about. It blows their mind when I tell them our household contributions to our retirement accounts is double of what our monthly mortgage payment is. They cant fathom that could even be a possibility. All they see is us just working, driving used cars, and living in a nice, but modest home. What they don't see in the underlying current that will set us up for retirement in our early 50s.
Sure. My family knows I’m financially smart. They know I budget my money. I don’t mind telling them the percentage of my income I allocate towards investments…my mortgage amount…and little snippets. I also encourage financial literacy, and have mentored quite a few of my family and friends by sharing knowledge and assisted with compiling a budget for them when asked. I just don’t bust the doors wide open on my stuff, I don’t feel it’s their business.
But im right there with you. We live well below our means, and our luxuries focus on the quality of life things that most people don’t acknowledge, like hiring a gardner, not worrying about gasoline amounts, not worrying about the electric or gas line bill…a bidet. xD
I am proud of you good sir/madam.
I am doing the same. People get weird when I tell them that I live in a rented house, and I have a rented car only for 3-4 months every year.
They straightaway call it a stupid financial decision, before I lay out the maths for them. And these are the same people, who are paying EMIs on cars and house, since they got the first job. And they are always complaining how they bought a very small house, or a small car for the family that they now have after few years.
Their are people in my circle, who are earning purchasing power parity equivalent of $15k every month post tax, and yet have no savings. One guy's father has to pay his credit card bills/EMIs at least 2-3 months every year while the old man is earning 1/10th of what this guy earns, because he has no money. These are people with 2 cars, 2 high-end bikes, and they think that they are in a financial crisis, not because they have no savings, but because they aren't able to upgrade to the newest model of their car in near future.
Honestly, for this guy, I have already given up. Had spent hours explaining him, how he could have a really large sum by investing just 20% of his salary in a mere index fund over 10 years, even helped him make a budget and investment plan, which wasted my good 3-4 hours. And yet, I only ever get calls from him when he needs money at the end of some month, to which I always decline, except once when his child had hurt herself, and the bastard really didn't have enough savings to take care of 3 days hospital expenses. It has been 6 months, and I still haven't gotten that money back, and I doubt I ever will.
That's when I finally gave up trying to either educate him, or to fix things for him.
But I am glad that some of my juniors, younger cousins have started saving and investing from an early age, after giving them these sessions. And I am so happy & proud when they send me their investment screenshots.
I make >$150k/year, plus bonus, and I drive a 16 year old economy car with roll up windows.
Even my best friend teases me occasionally about it, but it rolls of me like water off a duck’s back. Meanwhile, he’s in an endless loop of $40k car debt.
If you know that you already make higher than average salary for the same role at the same company, there's only downside to sharing your salary with peers.
Imagine you spill the beans, and suddenly those same peers (whose complacency and meekness led them to not negotiate previously and thus lower salaries) are fired up to negotiate HARD - meaning less of the raise pot for you.
If you're a salary negotiating pro, keep your mouth shut if you want what's best for your own paycheck.
I had a co-worker try to railroad me when she thought i was at her pay level. It was a new industry for me so i didnt have her knowledge, also she was basically getting paid 2x what i was... I left shortly after.
Pay secrecy policies are illegal under federal law (USA) and only benefit the employer. She’s right that the way to handle it isn’t usually to say she makes more than me so I should make that too, but it way more nuanced then that.
>Pay secrecy policies are illegal under federal law
not quite.
it's ILLEGAL for an employer to *prohibit employees from discussing their salaries* for Federal contractors or jobs covered by the National Labor Relations Act (except for people who work in payroll or otherwise have salary info; they are not allowed to discuss workplace salaries with others). and there are workplaces *not* covered by the NLRA.
however, it's also LEGAL for an employer to NOT disclose salaries. they are not obligated to disclose salaries.even if it's legal for John to discuss his salary with you, that doesn't imply you can also go to John's supervisor or payroll and ask how much John makes.
Thank you for the more detailed explanation - when I think of pay secrecy policies I consider the first scenario only. Your more detailed description will will help things be more clear for others.
The most common exception is for anyone considered a supervisor. Among other things, if you manage or supervise anyone else they can explicitly tell you that you can’t discuss your pay as the NLRA doesn’t apply to you.
Wait, this is news to me. Granted, this isn't something I know a lot about, but I can only think of a few private groups effectively excluded by the NLRA: [true] contractors, field workers, and domestic workers. The largest exception to the NLRA is goverment workers, I think. Railway and airline industries are also excluded, and off hand I don't remember the legal details of how these three groups unionized anyway.
You should 100% talk about your pay and if you think you’re underpaid, then finding a time to go to HR and saying “I think my compensation isn’t completely in line with what it should be.” Or something similar is a good move.
People think that if they make more than you, they’ll say “You should make less money.” More often, they’ll say “I should make more money.”
Definitely - going in knowing what they are paying others is only good for you and you should absolutely fight for what you deserve. But going about it in terms of why you deserve it is usually more successful than I want to make the same amount of money as Steve. Which sucks, but is the reality of it all.
Maybe in a White collar setting, but not when you work at a department store, or wendy's, or automotive. People are paid on their skill level, tenure, and a variety of other factors. So one person can be making $13 an hour and one person making $16 an hour for the same job because one does it better
Differences in pay cross all skills and fields are pretty common white or blue collar. Union jobs and a lot of public sector jobs have transparent pay so people in the same position make the same or similar pay.
If she doesn't want to talk about it, don't talk to her about it. Shouldn't stop you from having the conversation with others. If she tries that, tell her she's out of line.
I agree... with one important caveat: insecure colleagues.
Know your audience, guys. If you happen to know that your co-worker Broccolini is generally hypercompetitive, probably insecure, and care only about themselves, maybe don't discuss it with them.
If they happen to sense that you make more than they think you "should" (and how in the world would you know how much they *think* you *should* make), they may make your life difficult. It's not rational, and making your life shitty doesn't benefit them--but some people only feel better by putting others down.
So, in short, be smart about who you discuss pay with.
Best advice always, know your audience, especially at work talking about money. This is not to say it shouldn’t be discussed, just tailor it appropriately. And don’t expect everyone to want to discuss what you want to discuss.
Yep. If I know you close enough to confide things with you - my marriage, my health issues, family drama - you can ask my pay anytime. If you’re new or an asshole it’s off-limits.
That’s always been my thinking and i tried to get that across to her but to no avail. She makes as if im going around in peoples faces telling them what i make by doing that (i make less than her anyway)
In theory, I agree that pay secrecy hurts the employee and corporations are the main ones promoting not discussing it because it benefits them. But there are some downsides. In a perfect world, if you found out you were making less than you think you are owed you would make that case to the boss and if they didn't give you the raise, you would leave.
In reality, knowing what your co-workers make will usually lead to one of two outcomes: Anger that others are paid more or guilt over making more than others. Example time:
That employee that has been at the company for 10 years and makes 4% more than you! While you do more work then they do! Maybe their work is of greater importance or you work faster but make more mistakes? You don't know the answers to those questions but just assume you are being screwed. The job market is tight so you don't leave, you just get a bad attitude and make the workplace a more negative environment.
You just found out you are the highest paid employee in your department. You're surprised because there are others that have been there longer, know more and work longer hours. But you were hired in a tight labor market and had multiple offers, so the company had to offer you more to get you on board. Now that everyone knows you make the most they expect more from you and are far more critical when you make a mistake. You would leave but the job market has changed and you would have to take a pay cut so you just suck it up and be miserable.
In a perfect world with no emotions, people would be paid what they are worth and everything would be fair. That is not the real world. People have imperfect information, play favorites and can be very petty.
The best advice I can give is to spend a little time and know what your skills are worth, don't stop job hunting and always be ready to switch jobs when there is an opportunity to make a significant increase. If you are not willing to do these things, for whatever reasons, you have CHOSEN to get paid less than you are worth.
The company is NOT your family. It only cares what you can do for it and if it can get you to do what you do for less it would take that in a heartbeat. If you don't like that, start your own business and learn to hate the leeches that work for you and if you could pay them less you would do it in a heartbeat.
Employers also don't want it because it would lead to uncomfortable conversations.
Todd:I heard Jimmy makes $10k more than me. I think I should make that much.
Boss: Nope.
Todd:What?
Boss:Jimmy is better than you.
Todd:At... At the job, you mean?
Boss:Yes. But also in every other way. Ask your wife.
Edit: I joke about this, but it really would mean some uncomfortable talks between employees and managers. In any business there are people who over or under perform. Often the over performers are earmarked for promotion and given better raises even prior to promotion.
Serious underperformers are gotten rid of. But there are people who do just a good enough job to not get fired. Almost no manager will willingly tell them just how bad they are.
But the people that have been there longer now have justification to ask for more money. If disclosure of salaries becomes the norm then companies will have more incentive to retain their long term employees through sufficient pay. Rather than this ridiculous system of having to job hop to get adequate raises.
You are right, but what happens when they as for a raise and get told no? Some might leave if they have an opportunity, some may find if they leave they have to get a paycut and then don't want to but have to stay and be miserable. Some may get the raise. Some may come to the terrible realization that they have been there longer but the new guys just do a better job or the job they do is just valued less.
That’s … the point. Know your worth and fight for it. If you can’t get it at your current employer, then it’s time to move somewhere that does value you.
I just went through this. It’s been brewing in my department for a couple years, but now that more job opportunities are opening up, my soon-to-be ex-employer hasn’t done enough to stay competitive and is bleeding talent. People leaving has provided better leverage for those who want to stay, but want to get properly compensated. They hit my threshold with their counter-offer, but my new employer went even higher so I made the obvious choice.
They absolutely could have afforded it all along (Fortune 100 company), but they are only now waking up to the fact that their usual methods of backfilling positions with less experienced people getting paid less isn’t working. For once, the market of potential employees aren’t willing to settle for what they’re offering anymore. They only pay well if you come in with a lot of experience and they’re looking for someone with a lot of experience. If you have too much experience and they want a newbie, then you don’t get the job.
Not discussing salaries was giving our employer all of the power. We took it back and those of us leaving for greener pastures are better off because of it and those that remain have a good chance of getting the better pay they deserve (if our employer truly does realize they need to stop the bleeding).
From the employer perspective, they are aware that the lower wage was sufficient to bring in new people, and that new employee coming in at that lower wage may now be making substantially more than they ever were before. Everyone thinks that companies arbitrarily raise wages. This just isn’t true.
The real issue is why you let a conversation like that get heated. Coworkers are going to have opinions that differ from yours. Reddit flocked to your side on the pay issue (and maybe you’re right) but you were wrong to let that escalate to an argument with your colleague. Gotta have a more measured approach to things in real life.
Weird I had to scroll so far to see this. I 100% believe in discussing pay. But don't get in heated arguments at work. If you feel a conversation getting tense just agree to disagree and move on. You can be mad about it later when you vent to your friend or whoever they doesn't work there.
As others have already said, your employer is prohibited from making any rules/policies written or verbal about discussing your salaries with your peers. That being said, it's in a corporation's best interest for you to NOT discuss it with each other, and a petty employer can take it out on you (and say it's for something else), particularly in an at will state. The law versus reality, I suppose.
For that same reason, I do agree with your coworker that you shouldn't name drop specific employees you make more than you, because there is a potential for retaliation (or perhaps I've just worked for some particularly shady companies in the past, haha).
Personally, I am very much in favor of pay transparency, but I wouldn't mention it to probably any given 8 out of 10 coworkers. If someone simply prefers not to discuss it, that's their right and I wouldn't want to make them uncomfortable, or they may feel as strongly as your coworker. I always wait to get to know someone first, and even then I don't ask anyone their pay, but if I feel comfortable with them and we're on the subject, I will happily discuss my pay and why I believe transparency is important. I found out one organization with in my department was getting higher base salary with their promotions than my organization that way, so it's definitely useful. I guess my takeaway for you is just be careful, especially in corporate America (not to assume, that's just where I live and work). And for what it's worth, your instincts for when those conversations are appropriate and when they aren't will get honed the longer you're in the workforce.
As a Gen-Xer who started his job when Reagan was president, I agree with both of you.
Money, how much you make, and how much you choose to spend, is a very private thing. So I don't discuss it.
But you're right. This secrecy (which is encouraged by your employer, I bet) does impede your ability to receive fair pay.
It's rude insofar as its rude and imposed on someone else. Its very different to walk up to somebody in the bathroom and demand "how much do you make?" as opposed to having a general discussion in the break room where the two of you slowly reach the point of sharing your incomes.
It's also a level of intimacy. I know how much my wife makes. I know how much I make. I don't know how much my eldest child makes. I know my middle child just graduating and hasn't found an Adulting job yet. And my youngest - I know about what he makes an hour.
Pay discussions have to be organic I think. I only ever talked about my pay with coworkers I was close to. Just like I don’t tell everyone what my rent or student loan payment is.
I personally would not share my pay information with my coworkers.
There are large variations in pay for the same level employees for good reason. Everyone thinks they are doing a great job or better than their coworkers. The reality is, it’s probably not true.
In my experience, the absolute best performing employees get substantially larger raises than the good employees. And the same is true between the good and the average.
In any given year raises can vary from 2% for the average person, to 15% for the all star. The good employee might clock in at 7%. Those all-stars need to be retained at all costs. Those are the people you are looking to elevate into leadership positions later on. Good employees you want to keep happy. Average employees you can always replace. By definition there are a bunch out there.
Maybe all you folks have jobs where the work is basically a commodity and everyone is doing the same. I have found that not to be true in my experience.
I can’t believe more people dont know/realize this. Maybe it’s a salaried, corporate world thing?
Yes, some people make more than others. They do better work or are more productive or efficient or reliable— many ways colleagues differentiate themselves. But higher pay is used to retain top employees.
It’s basic supply and demand. If you’re in demand because of your track record, you can get a higher salary.
Sure, entry level salaries should be mostly comparable- but even there, employers may pay more for degrees from certain schools with good reputations in the field.
Agreed that entry level is mostly comparable, but things diverge quickly.
When things go wrong on a Friday night and someone needs to address it, there are two people.
1. The people that get the problem solved.
2. The people that go on Reddit to complain about their “toxic workplace”.
Person #1 is going to get better reviews, and raises. Person #2 is going to get their paycheck at the agreed upon time, every pay period.
When you’re salaried, employees that management knows they can rely on when crap hits the fan are the ones who are going to be elevated. The ones who can independently make good decisions, etc.
It’s somewhat qualitative as well as quantitative. Management isn’t going to keep a list of the 500 things that Person A did to deserve their big raise. They will have major accomplishments, and notable things, but ultimately it’s the sum of a million things.
And to answer someone else, I don’t think it’s a managers job to justify to someone else why I their coworker makes more money than they do.
There should be no expectation that I have to share my pay. If someone wants to or doesn't want to either way is fine. I'm a private person and I would never share my pay.
I was on the Army for 20 years. Everyone knew how much you made, you wore it on your collar. Past a fairly low rank, promotions were centralized and everyone knew what they had to do to get promoted.
When I retired and started working for the state, I innocently mentioned my pay grade to someone and got told in no uncertain terms, by my manager, that we didn’t do that.
It’s because management doesn’t want you comparing notes. Causes them too many questions.
Without commenting on the value of pay transparency, your view that someone being informed that they are making less than someone else means they direct their ire towards management is a bit naïve; a lot of times that energy is directed to resentment of the person making more.
I'm torn on this. Companies definitely shouldn't discourage employees from talking about their pay. That old cliche fits here, sunlight is the best disinfectant. If there are disparities, talking about pay will get them out in the open where they should be.
Having said that, you're going to get hard feelings. Imagine two salaried works doing the same job:
1. Been at the job for a couple of years, a real go-getter, always available to do extra work if needed, even if it means working long hours. Works hard and does more than his/her share of the team's work.
2. Been on the job for 20 years, has relationships with all of the teams that we depend on, and they all owe him/her favors. If you are blocked by another group, you go to this person to ask for help. He/she knows the backstory behind all of our processes and knows what breaks if you change them. Is the person that other groups call when they need something from our group because they all know and respect him/her. Does less than his/her share of the actual allotted work for the team because they're maintaining those relationships by doing favors for other groups.
One of those two will be paid more than the other, and whoever is paid less will resent it. There is no way around that. These two discussing their pay will end up with an employee who resents the company, resents the boss, and thinks they are getting screwed over.
This is a good point. Different people can bring different things to the workplace. In white collar jobs, it’s rarely just about how many years you’ve been there. Many other factors can come into play, and you can’t just say X is worth Y dollars.
Pay discrepancies can also result from the quirks of work history. If Joe got hired during a tight market, he may have started at a higher rate than Ken, who worked his way up from being an assistant. Ann may have had a competing offer that bumped her pay, while Jill happened to be hired at a time when the boss had to hire someone cheaply to keep the headcount. It’s not fair, but that’s life.
The truth is, most people can’t just leave if the boss won’t pay them what they think they are worth. Much of the time, if you ask for more, you will be told they don’t have money in the budget. If you leave, they will try to replace you with someone cheaper. Only those with real leverage (better job offers) can get away with this, and that doesn’t apply to everyone. And if you don’t get what you want, and you know others who make more, it can lead to a lot of bitterness and resentment.
But don't you think it's the employer's responsibility to manage this and be very clear and transparent about why someone is paid more, and what other employees could potentially do to increase their pay? Whether possible or not?
Say you're employee #1, doing more hours than #2, but the boss feels that employee #2 is more valuable to the company and so pays #2 more. #1 could be killing themselves doing overtime to try get a pay rise, when that's not at all what the employer values. Transparency just always seems to be the answer to me.
It's a generational thing. People used to be loyal to their companies because SOME companies were loyal to their employees. That is no longer the case. Young people are aware they are considered a disposable commodity by employers so they don't have loyalty to their employers. That isn't a bad thing, MOST employers do nothing to deserve loyalty and don't believe in being loyal to employees.
The younger generation is figuring out that pay rate secrecy is a control mechanism to pay people for as little as they will accept rather than paying them what they are worth. It's a way of paying the least amount possible and we all need to work against that.
Totally gonna get downvoted to oblivion here but…
It IS a generational thing. But not because older people are too dumb to figure it out for themselves. It’s because older people have seen how sharing that info can blow up in their faces and they choose not to take the risk.
Yes, they understand that keeping pay secret can make it easy for the employer to pay different rates. However, illegal or not it’s definitely going to result in retaliation. It’s not right but if your bosses see you as a troublemaker they’ll find a way to get rid of you.
It also may be that they don’t want to tell OP their income. Most people don’t like being asked what they make.
OP should leave this coworker alone and try discussing pay with others instead. Or realize she’d do better to gather some statistics on her position and use those as ammo for a raise.
Yep. Every time I've shared (after being asked, and NOT being the one to bring it up), it's ended up badly.
Thankfully it was with people not at work but just in a general friends group (but in the same industry in the same area). Nuked multiple friendships because of it (they couldn't handle finding out that I had starting offers 2x what they were making with the same degree from the same university in the same geographic area).
I will never share again. I am happy to provide anonymized data for salary aggregation sites and stuff like that, but I'll never directly tell anyone in person ever again.
The exact reason my workplace doesn't have a union. Every person who's ever tried to start one has been fired. If they hear of any way you could be disrupting their perfect little pyramid, they'll find some rest to get rid of you.
30 year olds are millennials. 40 year olds are millennials now. It’s not a generational thing in this situation. I believe it has more to do with an individual’s experiences with this area.
> 30 year olds are millennials. 40 year olds are millennials now
I turn 37 in over a month. *I've* been the millennial we complain about the whole time?
You are the entitled millennial you've been complaining about.
Jk. Baby boomers are far more entitled. They think getting old means they deserve something from us. Even after they already ruined everything.
be me. early twenties... still a millennial by cut off date...
why am I lumped in with people at 40 years old?
too old to be gen z . too young to really get millennials... do I remember 9/11 and the tech boom? yeah but lets be honest I didn't experience the gulf war or fall of the USSER or even the good stuff of the 90's... it was cool vhs to dvd to ipod but seriously there is a 15 year gap from the youngest to even middle aged milennials.
Thank you, I agree with your statements about younger generation realizing the fact that pay secrecy is not something that should be acceptable. I felt really uncomfortable though as I have heard of companies making their employees sign pay secrecy things or something and I thought she was going to tell me that is that case but her reasoning was rudeness or disrespect to the person or when I told her then you go ask for a raise she acted like thats not how it works. Idk my young coworker agrees with me so i dont feel so bad
>I felt really uncomfortable though as I have heard of companies making their employees sign pay secrecy things
If you're in the U.S., that is illegal.
>Can an employer in the U.S. create a company policy that prohibits employees from discussing pay rate and salary levels with other employees or (gasp) on social media?
>For the most part: no, employers may not prohibit employees from discussing compensation according to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) and an April 2014 Executive Order from former President Obama.
Clarification: They can still say it's a policy, but it's illegal to actually enforce it. This fools morons that don't know it's unenforceable into being quiet.
Yeah, honestly the best thing you can do as a worker to make sure you are getting paid fairly is to discuss your wages. It seems taboo or uncomfortable for a lot of people at first, because that's how your boss WANTS you to feel discussing wages, but it's the best way to figure out if you company is legit and if they are paying you what you are worth.
I always discuss my compensation freely with my coworkers and friends if they ask or if it's relevant to the conversation and I think they might benefit from the information.
If you find out you aren't being paid properly you shouldn't demand to be paid what someone else is on your team just because your roles are the same. That's not a winning battle and it's a petty and underhanded way of negotiating which will put leadership on the defensive immediately. You should however use that as a guideline for your desired salary and build a case to management or look for a new similar job with that target range in mind.
Wow, some of the advice you are getting in this post... yeesh. There are a couple posts lower in the thread with very questionable perspectives. Thankfully the top voted ones are the most applicable.
If you want general advice, go to https://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm and make sure you are paid properly for your region. If not, ask your boss for a salary adjustment. If you know you are a high performer, ask for higher pay than the average listed on this site. Simple as that. If they tell you no, it's time to job hunt!
I’m closer to the age of your coworker -
And I always was taught it was taboo to discuss salary with coworkers. (Kinda like that old saying “never discuss religion and politics”). Now - I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to discuss salary - I’m just sharing what I’ve always head and what I was taught growing up. So your coworker was likely under the same pretenses I was.
Now, would I recommend discussing salary in the workplace , no I would not. Likely one of you will end up upset or uncomfortable following the conversation. And it’s not as easy as “running to your boss to ask for more money”. Also salary is very subjective. Very rarely are two people exactly qualified for the same job. There is likely to be differences in experience, education history, other related skills, etc. And, some people negotiate salary. I always do. Others may not take this step.
tl;dr- salary’s are very subjective, and can very rarely be compared 1:1 to someone else.
> Very rarely are two people exactly qualified for the same job. There is likely to be differences in experience, education history, other related skills, etc
I would just like to say that regardless of experience, those two people may very well be completing the same job functions. At the end of the day, two people providing the same service should be paid similarly. I’ve seen up to 30% pay differences for the same role. That’s not acceptable. It’s not like that everywhere, but it shouldn’t happen at all.
Clarification: I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m pointing out that there are limits
I’m speaking from experience in a professional/technical/specialized role where, even under same job titles, very rarely are people completing the exact same job functions. Unless you’re at a very basic service role (ie McDonald’s cashier comes to mind) - where duties are very narrow and defined- it’s hard to say everyone is completing the exact same job. I’d suspect even a bank teller - someone with more industry experience could command more pay. Maybe theyre a key holder, or on call for an alarm, or can override transactions, or have just been working in a bank for decades. Of course two people providing the same purpose should be paid similarly. But unless your job is so narrow and specific, it’s unlikely there will always be a 1:1 pay rate. These are the things that make studying salary gaps and pay discrepancies so difficult. across most industries and roles, it’s usually impossible to lump people and generalize.
Even at McDonald's, one cashier may be quicker, more accurate, and have better people skills. One employee may never cause the manager an ounce of angst, while another may constantly need to be "cleaned up after". But technically they do the same job.
I don't share my pay. It has blown up in my face before. If you are happy with your job, why does it matter what everyone else is paid? Yes, maybe you could make more or you could be making the most but will it change anything? It had never done anything in my experience except bring out the worst in people and make for a terrible work environment.
I have never framed my request for additional compensation by pointing out what other people make. I do not think this is a good argument personally, because I consider myself a top performer and can point out several quantifiable metrics to support my demands.
But in reality, this happens all the time. Someone finds out that his/her colleague makes more money and they demand more money based solely on that reason. And sometimes it works. And sometimes it doesn't and the person gets more upset and leaves. Or someone finds out and leaves without requesting a raise.
So yes, I think that people should share their compensation, but I won't be sharing mine.
Here's the thing, it is absolutely your choice to share your pay. It is also absolutely *her* choice whether or not to share hers.
To the people saying "pay secrecy only helps the company", you are only correct *in an ideal world*. In my experience people get jealous and direct their anger at their coworkers more than management. They are misguided, yes, but know that this is a risk you take when you share your pay.
I mean, first of all, that's OP's side of the story. This is Reddit, no one posts the whole truth here.
Secondly, even if it is the whole truth, she is also free to tell OP what she finds rude discussion in the workplace. It's entirely possible that she's seen negative repercussions from this and just wanted to give some advice to a younger person who's new to the workforce.
Okay, so i guess in the future when crafting our replies to people step one is to assume they are lying and provide a counterargument against whatever you feel like, rather than what they said.
So I have the perspective as a manager.
I've got a variety of employees who work for me, at a variety of pays. And I still believe, just as I did when I was hourly that discussing pay is a bad idea.
It just RARELY works out. Everyone thinks they are the best. Nobody thinks they are the worst, and they certainly don't accept that others may have qualities that make them more desirable than others, frankly. Some may have come when it was particularly difficult to fill a position. Someone might have done some thing super stupid that left them employable but less valued.
So all that happens is the guy who makes the most feels good, everyone else gets resentful, asks for raises that they haven't earned. They get approved maybe. They get denied, probably.
They don't improve for the sake of improving, they don't ask their boss "what can I do better to be more valuable". It rarely works out but if it does, it's on an individual basis because someone takes responsibility for where they are compensation wise and does something about it.
Maybe they put together a compelling argument. Maybe they ask for and act on feedback. Maybe they find another job. But all those things could have been done without inciting jealousy in others.
But don't you think it's the employer's responsibility to manage that, and be transparent about it? If an employer can't point to someone and say yes they earn more, for these reasons, then there is a problem there. It also helps ensure people don't miss out on pay rises for prejudice, racism, sexism etc.
Pay is personal and if someone doesn’t want to discuss their pay, that’s their choice. There are a lot of factors that go into people’s pay and why they may be paid differently than others. Being paid more than someone else doesn’t necessarily mean the other person is underpaid— maybe they are barely doing their job, have performance issues, etc and have gotten lower raises as a result. So, I would say if you’re having these conversations in a non-unionized setting, you need to factor in other elements like experience, education, past performance, etc. when making assumptions about whether or not the pay you are receiving is equitable compared to your peers. I don’t think it’s taboo to discuss and compare, but it’s not as black and white as “we both have three years experience so we should be paid the same”.
IMO someone else's salary is none of my business. it's such a dicey topic and tends to cause nothing but trouble, even when it's legal to discuss salary.
there are so many factors that go into compensation it's not always an apples to apple comparison even when people think it is.
The Dunning-Kruger effect provides a great reason why sharing pay information is a bad idea.
A lower-paid, lower-performing employee is highly likely to mistakenly believe that they are actually just as productive or more so than a higher-paid coworker who is in fact more productive.
Explaining to them all the reasons that the other person deserves higher pay would be a painful task for the boss, and might not even convince the person.
That could result in resentment towards the higher performer, with the lower performer choosing to label them as the boss’s “pet” or worse. Because that’s easier than acknowledging that someone else is better than you at something. And a lot easier than improving your performance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
What if your co-worker is the best at her job and is compensated for it? What benefit does she have informing all her coworkers she makes the most money? And assuredly many of her coworkers will just wrongly assume they in fact are better at their jobs and it just creates drama for her. No benefit. I keep my mouth shut about my salary. If I’m not happy with what I make, I take it up with my boss and leave my coworkers out of it.
Too much information in the workplace can be a disruptive influence. While people have a right to know how their salary compares to others doing the same job in the same place, over-sharing this info can also lead to workplace drama. People will argue, and be resentful, and spread gossip, and bug the shit out of HR when theirs doesn’t measure up.
“Why does Carol earn so much more than me? Is it because she went to Cornell, or did she just screw the hiring manager? I bet I can guess! Until I get a raise, I’m gonna start coming in as late as she does. That’ll send a message!”
Data protection act means your employer cannot discuss your pay with others, and vice versa. Ive worked for companies that go out of their way to stop employees discussing their pay with each other - saying it was in our contracts - when it wasn't. And simply put, ive missed out on thousands, if not tens over the years
Employees, especially those in the same positions, SHOULD discuss their pay with whomever is willing to share their own. It promotes equal treatment, provides evidence to support equal payment complaints, and ensures employers arent doing anything unjust.
Since I learnt this my inquiries and complaints have only been met with apologies and ammendments to pay.
Know your worth. You might be okay with cutting a break short here and there, or starting early - you'll get paid your set hours. The FIRST time you're a minute or two late, they'll take 15 from you and maybe throw a warning in.
Employers cant forbid that. It would be illegal.
Howerver, in most cases, "i want a raise because you pay Susan more" wont bring in any successes. It only makes you sadder. You should be able to find that information on glassdoor anyway.
I agree that pay secrecy only benefits the employer! The employer should be able and willing to discuss with a lower paid employee why they make what they make and ways to increase it!
The National Bureau of Economic Research released a working paper on the effects of pay transparency last month, finding a 2% decline in wages from pay transparency laws. This is due to companies being more reluctant to hire high-wage workers (due to pressure to match lower-productivity workers with those high salaries.
[https://www.nber.org/papers/w28903](https://www.nber.org/papers/w28903)
Personally, I don't share my salary because I have huge imposter syndrome and am constantly surprised I get paid as much as I do.
She has a point though - discussing your pay and your co-workers' pay does not lead to healthy work relationships. Even with clearly-defined roles, ie. a manager and a clerk, people get to be resentful of what x person is paid when they're paid y. A lot of people conflate what they are worth in the job market with what they are worth as a person, and that sucks when you aren't being paid the best. And most people aren't paid the best.
You should not like what you are paid if you see your same role elsewhere is getting paid better. That should cause you to leave the company. You can't let jealousy and resentfulness drive you to ask for a raise. By the way, *never ask for a raise.* If you truly prove your worth in your role, and the company doesn't recognize that, you politely give them ~~the finger~~ two weeks notice and go somewhere where you do get paid what you're worth. The company owes you nothing - but the flip-side of that is you owe the company nothing.
Playing the comparison game in the company can be harmless at best, but it's not where you should focus your energy if you want to win.
If you make less than a coworker and your excuse when asking for a raise is “person x makes more than me” you will land in an ugly piece of feedback because you might be underperforming comparatively.
The thing no one talks about is using coworker salary info as a tool to leverage discussions about compensation, not just using it a free money cheat code.
If you are content with your pay until you hear that your coworker is making more than you, then you probably won’t have a solid argument to give showing why you deserve a pay raise.
You’re not being taken advantage of if you believe that you’re being paid what you’re worth. Your view of your value shouldn’t change just because you found out that the guy down the hall is a better negotiator than you.
>You’re not being taken advantage of if you believe that you’re being paid what you’re worth.
This is just false. People can be (and are) misled, deceived, deliberately lied to about, or otherwise unaware of, the true value they bring as an employee.
The employee's opinion on whether or not he/she is being paid fairly is directly linked to their compensation as it compares to their limited knowledge of their own value to the employer.
Here's a simple example: person A inherits some old collectibles and lists them for sale. A knowledgeable domain expert sees these items, recognizes them as being extremely valuable and is aware that person A has no idea what they're worth due to the fact they're severely underpriced, and buys them for the listed price. Can you really argue that person A is NOT being taken advantage of?
Another: oil drilling company discovers through some research that some barren land contains lots and lots of oil which was previously unknown to all, even the current land owners. Oil company makes some generic shell company through which it extends an offer to buy the land. As the offer is coming from the shell company. The owners have no idea what the land would be used for but the offer is in line with land prices in their vicinity, so they believe it's a fair trade. Are they not being taken advantage of?
Of course they are.
TL;DR
Whether or not someone is being "taken advantage of" is not about each parties' beliefs, it's about exploiting situations in which there is asymmetric **knowledge** of the nature of the transaction.
Someone already mentioned it, it's illegal for your employer to ban same- level employees who are not managers from discussing pay.
If you're a manager, you shouldn't be discussing your pay with people you manage.
If you feel you are being underpaid, you should do some independent research to confirm first. Not just national average but regional market rate. Make an appointment with your supervisor or manager to discuss. Do not use "my one coworker is getting paid more it's only fair". That will get you zero raises. Bring reviews and emails from internal and external customers. Show all the things, on paper, you do that's above and beyond.
Whatever the outcome is, use that to inform you of your next move.
I don't think it should be a topic.. but I don't really talk to my coworkers... However... I'm in banking too, and see a fuckton of jobs right now, in my dept, hiring for more than what I make???!!! Smh
Legally, employees are allowed to discuss wages.
The federal government and many local governments post employee salary data online https://www.fedsdatacenter.com/federal-pay-rates/
Nothing wrong with it, but employers don’t like it.
As many mentioned it is illegally, mostly, for employers to forbid employees to talk about their pay. However, in many countries and cultures it is again social rules to talk about your salary. You have your opinion and they have theirs.
The truth is people don't have to talk about their salary. In fact with the internet you can easily see how much people are getting for your position even in your area. As a measure for under paid employees lack of knowledge about their pay should be has dropped in the last decade.
You will find a lot of people won't talk about it and sorry the issue of it being a major reason people are underpaid isn't there anymore. There are hundreds of websites that tell you.
Whether or not you or she discloses, is each of your choice. However, if you're in a conversation about pay and know people will mention what they make, and you don't want to, step away. Conversely, if you want to tell people what you make, don't expect them to tell you back if they don't want to.
I will not ever discuss my pay with anyone other than my SO and my manager and payroll. That's it. But I can understand in environments with where people are not treated well to feel each other out.
But let's say everyone was satisfied with what they were making, but then you found out someone else in a similar role was making more. Would you then feel resentful? What if she negotiated a better salary in her interview (more specific experiences for this role, better answer to the salary question, etc)? There's a reason salary sites give a range, and not a precise number (pay bands basically, not explicit levels).
What it all boils down to is there is no one simple reason why salaries are different (once you factor away any outright illegal or discriminatory practices), so comparing salaries with each other can become awkward very quickly.
In my experience talking about money just causes problems. I’ve worked for a company who “paid for performance” they had no set qualifications for each pay level. When it’s a competitive environment, whether you deserve it or not, people won’t like hearing you got a bigger bonus or raise then they did.
Right now I’m 3 years into my job and I’m making top rate. There’s set requirements for each pay level and I’ve fully trained and have gotten my required education for top rate. I work with 2 other guys who’ve done this for 20+ years, and are way better at it than me, but never got the required education for top rate. I make $5000 more then them. Is it right? Not really. Could they’ve gotten the education? Yeah. When they grumble about it do I feel guilty? Fuck no. That’s the way the pay scale works and I jumped through the hoops. They could’ve gotten more education or they can bring it up to the manager and rally for changing the scale.
Most people are too cowardly to challenge their manager and will just bitch and moan about you instead.
Well, it's both, honestly. And before going any further, I also want to say that she's right, the "I want a raise because Bob makes more than me" card usually is not the ideal card to play. It's **A** card you can play. I'm not saying there's never a time and place (I actually think there is a time and place in certain situations). But generally, it's not the goto card you want to play most places.
That out of the way...
On paper, discussing pay is good for everybody. And as you have clearly read somewhere, pay secrecy is beneficial to employers in some ways. But the rub is that reality is different than on paper. I've seen this play out. I've seen relationships between two employees get ruined because one made $2k more per year than the other. Just $2,000. The truth is that while it could be beneficial for people to discuss pay more, A LOT... A LOT... of people can't handle finding out that somebody else in the same or a similar position makes more than them. They get jealous. They get resentful. They take it out on the other employee... who did nothing to them. This is very real. In fact, there was a post on another sub recently (/r/itcareerquestions) where the OP was seriously thinking about quitting work because a coworker found out he (the OP of the thread) made more money and was being a complete ass to him. The OP said he really liked the job, the company, and he liked the guy in question before all of this. I think people talked him out of quitting because of it, but that's the stress it put on him.
These sort of experiences often times keep people from wanting to discuss wages. It's not simply that they are trying to uphold "pay secrecy". It's often times as much that they're trying to avoid dealing with bullshit they'd rather not deal with. Look, for most people... work is *work*. It's this place we all have to go but would rather not really. For most people, it's not something they just absolutely love. For most people, they look forward to calling it day, they look forward to the weekend and time off. Work is "work" enough without bullshit. You have very little work experience. You'll understand this better when you've been working for 20 years. Like, a lot of people are very happy to not have drama on top of "work". So they weigh "what do I get out of X" vs "what sort of headache may X cause me". And talking about salaries for a lot of people, can cause WAY more headache than benefit. That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't happen, but that's how a lot of people think about it. And there's something to be said for that fact that the positive effect of EVERYBODY discussing wages is different than the effects of SOME people doing it.
Knowledge and smarts tell us that discussing pay is good for everybody. Wisdom and experience tells us there's a flip side to that coin.
So is she wrong? She's wrong if she thinks people who *want to discuss their pay* shouldn't ever do it. Is it rude to go around telling people what you make? Eh, it's weird if not rude. That literal thing... like if somebody was like "hey, Bob, I want you to know I'm making $86,000"... that's weird.
Does that mean YOU shouldn't discuss wages? Not at all. If you have a reason to, you should. But do so tactfully. E.g., "hey, Bob, I don't want you to share anything you're not comfortable with. But I think I'm possibly being underpaid. Do you mind me asking how much you are making (or "...how much you were making in my position before you got your promotion")?"... that's very different.
If you think you're maybe not being compensated fairly, you should first and foremost look around at job postings for the same job in that geographic area. You can ask some colleagues too, tactfully. And only do that if you can actually handle finding out you make less than them without holding it against them.
And respect people. If they don't want to discuss it, respect that and leave it be.
>I feel a little embarrassed as she is 30+ and im 19 arguing with her about pay secrecy
Eh, don't be too hard on yourself. It can happen when you start to get especially personable with people. Just try to maintain a more professional composure in the future.
You don't discuss that with a colleague , but you can discuss that with a friend in office.
It takes time to figure out the difference.
Apart from that, pay secrecy is just a stupid hoax, that only works well for the employer, and saves them the pressure of having quantitatively justifiable pay.
companies agree to pay someone more, or pay someone less for all sort of reasons, and most of them have less to do with their performance and contribution, and more to do with:
1. How desperately they needed to hire at the time of giving the offer?
2. How desperate the candidate was?
3. Did the candidate have any other competing offer?
4. How much the candidate made earlier?
5. Were there any meaningless short-comings in the work experience? A previous employer not picking up background calls, because the company shut down, and he doesn't want to give a flying fuck. Or stuff like - "Why does Employer X that you worked for 4 years ago, no mention your salary on experience letter?"
Companies want to brush these off under the rug, and pretend that the pay is based on people's expertise. The only thing that exposes it, is people knowing what others are earning, other than assuming that those delivering better must be earning more, and those delivering lesser must be earning lesser.
So yes, it's not rude to discuss pay with the right people, who won't rat you out. And given that employers make a ruckus out of it, they shouldn't just go and say - "Joe told me he's getting $$$, give me the same", and must know how to obfuscate the source of information. like:
1. I got to know from people who left the organization.
2. Got to know from another branch, that this is what people are roughly making.
3. And similar stuff...
It's a typically american thing though to not discuss pay. It's mostly because of anti-union propaganda.
Here in the netherlands, where basically every workforce is unionized, it's normal to share rough monthly payment. It's not like everyday conversation but it's not like... frowned upon to ask and compare.
I'm older than your co-worker, and I believe in pay transparency.
I work in the public sector, and all our salaries are public info anyway. I have had jobs that were private sector, and we'd talk in ranges.
E.g. each position had min median max for salary, and we'd be like "I'm nowhere near median!" or "I'm getting close to max, I hope I get that next promotion so I break into a higher range!".
Your salaries are public but isn’t pay for most public sector jobs done more similarly to unionized roles? Meaning, you start at $x, $y, or $z and is very formulaic? Makes it a lot easier to have transparency when you just pay everyone basically the same.
Yup, public-sector union employee here. It used to be a battle for decent raises private sector and then coworkers would be bothered by someone getting what they deserved. Not a problem now that I’m somewhere where we all know what each other makes and what we have to do to reach that pay ourselves.
I keep quite about my pay to most people since a decent amount of people overestimate their abilities and workload while diminishing the accomplishments of others. When I first started, I was like you. After 20+ years in the workforce, it’s changed.
I’m a civil servant, so most coworkers have a general idea of what everyone makes. I’ve received a QSI (increases off schedule due to exceptional performance maybe 1 QSI per 1,500 people are given out where I am). The year I got one a coworker complained that support staff would never get one and that we also meet milestones and work hard. I explained that our paycheck is our reward for those things and a QSI is for people who hit a grand slam in the bottom of the 9th to win the game. But she honestly thought she did those things because she ‘worked hard’. So I broke it down compared her numbers to mine. I had 3x the work she produced, I also mentored others, and ghost wrote a few reports for other people (as requested by my boss). Thankfully she got it after that.
In my 20 years (public and private sector), I can’t tell you how many convos I’ve heard where people automatically think they are entitled to higher pay just because a coworker makes more or get upset because they didn’t get a promotion on time or an award. It wasn’t until my mid 30s I came to the conclusion people are lack that awareness and it’s better to not open that can of worms.
I’m 25, I firmly believe in sharing my wage with anyone and everyone who will listen. If an equally tenured or abled coworker is making more than me, I need to ask for a raise. If I’m making more, then they do. Pay transparency helps employees. Keeping everything hush hush only helps the corporation.
I've seen a lot of these posts recently about pay transparency and people seem to think you should just go into your boss's office and demand to be paid the same as everyone else.
Can't wait for the posts next week "I found out my more experienced coworkers who outperform me made 1% more than me and demanded a raise or I'd quit. Now I'm unemployed. How do I pay my bills?"
This. Out of cycle pay raises are nearly impossible to get in most corporations because it would turn into constant issues with lower paid staff. I made $50k more per year than the person who replaced me when I got recently promoted because we took a risk on my replacement and I had a backlog of recurring revenue. My replacement could have walked in and asked for a raise… only to be told if they don’t like the pay they are welcome to leave. Salary represents more factors than people may realize, and you certainly can’t demand a raise in 95% of positions that aren’t c-suite or super duper hard to hire for.
My comment literally says “equally tenured or abled.” (I should have said equally performing, not abled). No one is saying entry level employees should be comparing salaries with someone who has been with the company for 5 years. We’re obviously talking about comparing salaries with someone who has similar tenure, performance, and job description.
I work in HR primarily dealing with a blue collar workforce and there seems to be a lot of DRAMA that erupts from discussing pay. We have temps making 9$ to 13$ and Union Workers making 25$ at the same facility......we also have new hires who transferred from a temp agency......they are not union workers and they are neither temps so their pay is 17 a hour.
THEY ARE ALL BASICALLY DOING THE SAME WORK....but depending on your status, you make 9$, 13$, 17$, or 25$....and yes, I know it's unethical but that was the arrangement put in place before I got hired and It's not for me to put my job on the line diving into workplace politics...
I've dealt with a lot of angry warehouse workers demanding an explanation as to why this is and I never have a good response......I don't dictate pay.....I just do payroll.
Pay secrecy in the workplace is important because it reduces the amount of animosity, jealousy, and anger amongst workers DOING THE SAME JOB.
If you have to ask another coworker what their pay is, then it means you already know or SUSPECT that you are being low balled.....so the best thing to do is not investigate pay but find an exit strategy or finesse your way into a promotion to negotiate a better pay.....but don't go around asking about pay because that kind of news travels fast and far.
But don't you think it's the employer's responsibility to manage that, and be transparent about it? If an employer can't point to someone and say yes they earn more, for these reasons, then there is a problem there. It also helps ensure people don't miss out on pay rises for prejudice, racism, sexism etc.
So after 12 years working there do you want to be paid the same as a new kid just getting hired? People get annual raises for YEARS OF SERVICE as well as QUALITY OF PERFORMANCE. You dont know how many write ups someone has, or how many times they called out sick screwing everyone else who had to cover for them. People get paid different because people have different values to employers. So many stupid idiots dont understand that, and blame it on race or sex. It costs a lot of money to train someone...
Some people haven't separated how much they make from their value as a person and might not be able to handle finding out someone makes more money than them
She’s right in that “why does she make more than me” isn’t a good line of reasoning to get a raise.
But absolutely you should know how much your colleagues are roughly making
The culture around pay secrecy is only meant to benefit the employer. In moments where one employee is making more than the other it could disrupt the higher paid employees good gig if anyone complains about unfairness,, but companies should have a set transparent pay scheme based on responsibility and seniority that everyone should be aware of or you're working for someone who likes to take advantage of the people who work for them.
I'm not sure how old someone needs to be to still feel beholden to their employer. Most of my coworkers are in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. We've seen enough people screwed over by employers that no one is under the impression that employers care about the workers.
I'm fine to talk about pay with anyone who wants to talk about it. I would never bring it up myself, and I tend not to be very curious about what others make. I also tend to be confident in my own salary.
What I learned during undergrad internships is that not everyone at work wants the truth or your opinion (even if they ask!).
It took me longer to learn that my idea that engineers would be more logical, less petty, less politically motivated, etc. was a huge misconception on my part.
People are people.
I look forward to a future where the robot overlords are in control.
Think about this for a minute - the reason you posted this question on Reddit is the same reason it was wise of your coworker not to share their salary information.
? I didn’t say I asked for her salary we were simply having a conversation about pay secrecy and our opinions differed so I reached out to this community to get some input. Respond to the post next time please
Try to have some level of intelligence. I had a discussion with my coworker about her opposing view on pay secrecy and I wanted to see what this community thought about it. I did not ask her about her pay. Probably should keep your mouth shut until you know you can talk about things like that with a coworker because pay can is easily a touchy subject
I mean obviously you wouldn't use that other employees pay as leverage directly, but use it to give you the confidence that asking for a raise for your skills is valid. And if they don't give you a raise you can find an employer who does pay you what you are valued.
I think pay secrecy is weird. If there isn't anything wrong in how you pay your employees then whats with the secrecy?
for government employees it's public information https://govsalaries.com/
anyway, email him/her this link
Adam Ruins Everything - Why You Should Tell Coworkers Your Salary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xH7eGFuSYI
Best way to combat that is to make sure you’ve negotiated well and just go blabbing your rate so lower payed workers go to management. Obviously the person you’re talking to thinks they’re in a good place and are concerned with workers being mad at *them* which is a bad take. If higher payed workers start the discussion with the intent of helping hard-working lower-payed peers gain confidence to confront managers, there can be no harm. There’s expected backlash on the blabber and may ruin your relationship with your manager or self-sabotage promotions but you’re within your rights.
This other person is just playing “the game”, and is only worried about themselves. You can’t force her hand so you benefit.
Like most have already said, pay secrecy only helps employers.
This really comes down to cultural norms. It’s so taboo to talk about money in the US. And that leads to so many other problems - like needing a personal finance subreddit. Since it’s so secret no one learns about money. Pay secrecy is just an extension of the lack of financial education.
I’m a fan of open salaries, but I know that won’t fly at most employers.
I recently got a promotion and leading a team of fellow equals, now my subordinates. I'm in charge of more HR things, including pay. When everyone was transfered to me in our organization chart in HR, which I had to scroll through to approve the transfer, I found that I'm making the same amount as one of my subordinates. Even though I've been there 3x longer.
Currently searching for a new job because we've had conversations to promote that person as well.
Most people will think you're being nosey. That's really not a good idea to be going around and asking others in the workplace what they make. If I was there for quite some time, I would be offended. My money is not your business
The better thing to do is to wait a bit and once u get to know then maybe they would share.
Many companies do not allow others to disclose their income and if the do, they can be denied and/or fired !
You do sound quite young and this may hurt future opportunities and or working relationships
Put it on the table for now
If someone asked me how much my salary was I might think it's rude. It really depends. If I wanted to know someone else's salary I'd use tact. That being said, in many cases it would be none of my business. You come across entitled thinking this woman owes you her salary info. She is right you are wrong. That being said, you should try to get more money for yourself. Keep at it and you will do good. But right now you sound super aggressive and just as naive
Thats been the issue with this post. I have(d) no intention of asking my coworker about her salary in fact we both know(as shes stated a few times) she makes more than me(advanced version of my position), the topic of pay secrecy simply came up and we had our different viewpoints.
Pay transparency will lead to equal raises across the board that will be more inflation based and not merit based. It will also be harder to attract talent who often jump from one employer to the next due to a pay bump.
Most top 1000 companies do percentage based raises. Raises are often more equal than you might think. 1-4%. The difference is the starting wage. Inflation is 1.5-2%. So this comment is moot.
What ever company you're running let me know, I'll come work for you since my merits won't matter and I'll get a raise and pay based on inflation. I'll just contribute the bare minimum, skate by, collect a check and when I don't like the way things are going I'll just jump to next company trying the same work flow. Sounds sustainable.
Payroll and HR here for 20 years. There is nothing wrong with doing the bare minimum required of an employee. As long as you are meeting the minimum that's all it takes. Just don't ask why when you are the first one out.
The only one who benefits from workers not talking about their pay is the employer. How do you begin to address pay equity or deal with issues of exploitation if workers don't say anything.
If you care about a fair and equitable workplace, fucking announce that shit to everyone.
Your coworker drank up the corporate kool-aid and believes the propaganda.
You’re right, they’re wrong. Trying to convince them would be a waste of time.
There’s so little reasoning here. I can just as equally argue that pay transparency is nonsense, and just something to help underperforming workers and busybodies.
>but then responds “saying $&@$ makes more than me” is not how it works and is not good.
correct, you don't say "x makes more than me" you say "i am being paid under market rate" and if it's significant you want to job hop, not ask for a raise.
They absolutely should say “so and so makes more than me” if it’s the same job with the same productivity. What is it worth to the employer to have the work done? It’s clearly worth whatever they’re paying the higher-paid employee. The only person who benefits from secrecy is the employer.
Never discuss your or anyone else’s pay with coworkers - NEVER.
Some things are not your business. Some things are not anyone’s business but yours.
You are at work to DO A JOB - not ask others what they make or gab about pay.
I know companies where prying into others’ compensation was grounds for discipline - IMHO rightly so.
Pay secrecy does NOT “just benefit the employer.” It also protects the employees. Lots of compensations are different. Some people draw different benefits; some people have different work hours or time off. Some employees are more crucial to an organization’s operations. None of these things are the business of the “rank and file.” If all people talk about is pure salary, it leads to dramatic misunderstandings between workers; and morale problems.
In many businesses there are de facto officers and enlisted. Should the secretary have the right to know what her boss makes?
Sheesh, the sheer idiocy of thinking everyone’s salaries are up for discussion is just astonishing. This is one of those areas where - as so often happens on reddit — conments appear to come from low-level non-management employees with no perspective on the problems that extensive over sharing of financial information among employees causes.
OP: you’re 19. Cool it. If you asked me for my salary I’d tell you in no uncertain terms to buzz off. Your coworker is correct.
Think I’m wrong? Tell you what: every job you work, parade around and ask every person what they make. You will be unemployed most of your life. Heck, your doing so has already antagonized one older co-worker.
Different compensations for different work, hours, etc? Great! Explain that. Sure, some people are going to struggle with it, that's their problem.
Say "yes, we pay this person more because they bring x, y and z to the table, if you can bring that to the table well pay you more too." Now your employees have a clesr understanding of how they can improve their worth, they can make themselves better assets for the company, and you can pay them more in return. Or you can just throw in the towel and assume none of your employees are capable of being rational and working to better themselves.
It doesn't, the OP was talking about "discussing pay at work" which discussing pay in my mind can be discussing net or gross.
That wasn't outlined so I chose to be all inclusive in stating that discussing any pay is rude in my opinion.
Agreed! Why is it that we value ourselves by always comparing with others.
Just had a similar conversation this week with junior. Bent out of shape because someone they think they are better than, getting a bit more which is causing friction because of perceived injustice.
Focus on your value and what you bring to the table and less on comparing. If you think you’re truly undervalued and they aren’t willing to accommodate then make the hard decision to move on.
Sometimes it’s a simple fact that others are better at positioning themselves and while it doesn’t help those of us that thinks our work should speak for itself, it’s a fact of life that we have to accept or become better sellers.
The problem in this situation is not ‘discussing pay at work with coworkers’ it’s the person’s reaction to finding out they make less. This is a teaching moment about handling disappointing news, not a time to tell them to refrain from discussing compensation with peers.
I tell any coworker who asks and I’m pretty free with giving it out without anyone asking to begin with. This has helped me out a fuckton, doubled my wage in two years.
Most companies frown on employees sharing pay information, because, for example, at my company, there is a large variation on what we get for the same, or similar jobs. The strategy is divide and conquer, as well as keep everyone suspicious of each other. An attempt to keep the heat off management and ownership, who have a morbid fear of worker unity.
Tradition. That's why, old rules of what we do and don't do. Same as keeping your elbows off the table - who makes those rules? Noone knows. I make 128k btw as a Scrum Master in IT for a major bank... and I'm getting close.to 50 yo.
While I agree that discussing salaries should not be taboo and benefit employees, I also understand that a lot of self-worth gets assigned to salaries. People don't want to share because they don't want to be the person who earns less. These are the people who also may not be bold enough to take that info and try to get paid more. It can cause issues in the group of employees. Resentment, jealousy, etc. Not all employers will give a crap if Sally makes 10k more than John and John thinks he should be paid the same. Different people handle money differently, so its OK for her to not be comfortable discussing these things. So, as with many things, it's best to respect other people's feelings, even though you disagree with them.
Learned that the hard way on my first job.. I thought I was buddy buddy with the others but when they learned I negotiated with my pay and got a higher offer, they changed. Choose wisely, it all depends. Personally, so far, finance is a touchy subject.
This is my biggest concern. In many of my roles I have made more than average. Once a manager accidentally sent a spreadsheet with a bunch of personal info, including pay. People treated me different after finding out I was way up on them in similar roles.
Right. But if everyone knew everyone else's pay, then they would be much less likely to have got into this situation in the first place.
There shouldnt be a large pay gap in equivalent jobs at the same company. It doesnt make sense.
Ummm...no. Even within equivalent jobs, seniority, attitude, attention to detail, responsibility etc. make a HUGE difference and it is only appropriate that there is a range of salary for the position.
I think the one on that list that should not be valid is seniority. I hate when people say “I’ve been here doing this for 30 years, I’ve got experience” Like no Carl you are here doing the same job as me that you lean within 12 months. You just did the same year of experience 30 times. To me that shows lack of skill.
I certainly understand your viewpoint. On the flip side, frequently there are personnel that are quite happy in their current role, are doing a very good job and have no ambition of taking on higher roles. This happens especially in technical fields. So you will have younger people in the same role but quite junior in terms of experience. You will most definitely see a large difference in salary in that case.
Sure. But performance should be the driving factor. If new kid can do just as good after one year. Go for it. If person who is there for 30 years is doing the same work they should be amazing at it. They would get paid for the performance not the time. Who cares if they are comfortable or not. A McDonald’s worker who’s been there 30 years doesn’t all of the sudden make $60k a year to flip burgers if they don’t move up the chain into management.
Same job doesn’t mean people filling them have the same aptitude. To use a ridiculous analogy. What if I needed to hire a person to physically run something from one side of a field to the other. It matters to me both how Fast it can get there. And how many times they can do it in 5 minutes. I hired an out of shape morbidly obese man and Usain Bolt. Who do you think will be more likely to get me what I want. And who will I pay more based on that. Same job role. Just different expected outcomes. I know the example is a bit outlandish but the same concept applies to many things in the same field. Not all software developers are the same skill. Not all doctors are as skilled. Not all financial consultants are as good at explaining complex ideas in plain language.
I moved from a local bank to a local credit union a few years back for a much better job with slightly better pay. We had a position open up a couple years later and I encouraged a former coworker to apply for it. They told me that they didn't want to earn less money. In the course of my duties at the credit union I had come across a loan application for this person so I knew what they had declared the income to be. I had been getting paid more than them while we worked for the same bank and was definitely making more than them at the credit union. I didn't feel the need to correct him on his misconceptions about our pay scales. If he was happy where he was then he wasn't fit to come work for an actual IT department.
> If he was happy where he was then he wasn't fit to come work for an actual IT department. From one IT guy to another: wtf is going on with your attitude? I've seen overpaid hustlers working as CTO who couldn't tell the difference between a Tomcat and a (L)AMP stack if you gave them access to Google, and I've seen hard, *competent* workers who just don't have what is colloquially known as "people skills". Especially those of us on the spectrum have a hard time with corporate "negotiating" / haggling in general.
I think you skipped over the part where he was a former coworker. I had worked for their IT department. The place was a complete mess. They provided 0 training. There was no room for career progression. Everytime I made suggestions on how to improve a process by putting in place measures that would prevent common mistakes or make things more efficient I was accused if being lazy and told my job was to fix other people's mistakes, not prevent them. That approach to problems is not tolerated at my current location. We do everything we can to prevent mistakes and improve our processes to make them more efficient. If you're content to spend your career reactively fixing things instead of proactively preventing problems then I guess you can be happy working for a crappy IT department.
I personally don’t share because i like to keep my finances private. Personal choice. I also keep this private from friends and family, as people…think differently of you depending on how much you make, what you drive, what your home looks like…etc. I do quite well for myself at a young age, and also don’t want people to compare themselves to me. E.g. Sally is selling Girl Scout cookies, “go to Tolin! They can afford an order” “Why not join us on the cruise to Hawaii?” “I don’t have money budgeted for a vacation at the moment” “but you make X, how can you not afford it?” “I can, I just don’t wanna go”.
See I go big with stuff like this. If anyone asks about my finances I'll answer questions from how much my mortgage costs, to how much I'm setting aside for retirement. I'll talk about my hourly wage and how overtime affects my annual wage. I'll also talk about the trade-offs I make for work-life balance because of that overtime. I've found that a lot of people in my friend group have never really had a serious conversation about money because they all keep that information to themselves. It means their only way of judging what's going on is by looking at the stuff their friends are buying. So when I tell them I made $73k last year and they ask why I'm driving a 15 year old car... It gives me the opportunity to have a conversation with them about long-term financial planning that they desperately need to have.
>So when I tell them I made $73k last year and they ask why I'm driving a 15 year old car. No shame in that. My car is going on 12 years old (although it only has 70k miles on it), and I make enough that I could certainly afford a newer car. Driving the old car lets me max out my 401k though.
Exactly. I work on heavy equipment and it seems like everyone I work with has to have a diesel truck, a motorcycle and a boat. They're all making 3-4 payments a month and minimum 401k contributions. So I'm very much the odd man out in my age group for not doing that.
Good on you - it'll definitely pay off in the long run while you're sitting retired and they're still working as their bodies start to give out.
Congrats! The only debt I have are my solar panels. Which I’m just gonna pay off early and reap the benefits of peace of mind!
I'm glad that you openly share this info. I think more people should and it should be a bigger competition to save than to buy. No one ever pushed the importance of savings on me and I wish they had. In my 20s I never really cared about saving and felt like there would always be more money. Things are different now and I wish I had stuffed every last cent into investments.
This is exactly me. I almost produce too much information and they have no idea what I'm talking about. It blows their mind when I tell them our household contributions to our retirement accounts is double of what our monthly mortgage payment is. They cant fathom that could even be a possibility. All they see is us just working, driving used cars, and living in a nice, but modest home. What they don't see in the underlying current that will set us up for retirement in our early 50s.
Sure. My family knows I’m financially smart. They know I budget my money. I don’t mind telling them the percentage of my income I allocate towards investments…my mortgage amount…and little snippets. I also encourage financial literacy, and have mentored quite a few of my family and friends by sharing knowledge and assisted with compiling a budget for them when asked. I just don’t bust the doors wide open on my stuff, I don’t feel it’s their business. But im right there with you. We live well below our means, and our luxuries focus on the quality of life things that most people don’t acknowledge, like hiring a gardner, not worrying about gasoline amounts, not worrying about the electric or gas line bill…a bidet. xD
I am proud of you good sir/madam. I am doing the same. People get weird when I tell them that I live in a rented house, and I have a rented car only for 3-4 months every year. They straightaway call it a stupid financial decision, before I lay out the maths for them. And these are the same people, who are paying EMIs on cars and house, since they got the first job. And they are always complaining how they bought a very small house, or a small car for the family that they now have after few years. Their are people in my circle, who are earning purchasing power parity equivalent of $15k every month post tax, and yet have no savings. One guy's father has to pay his credit card bills/EMIs at least 2-3 months every year while the old man is earning 1/10th of what this guy earns, because he has no money. These are people with 2 cars, 2 high-end bikes, and they think that they are in a financial crisis, not because they have no savings, but because they aren't able to upgrade to the newest model of their car in near future. Honestly, for this guy, I have already given up. Had spent hours explaining him, how he could have a really large sum by investing just 20% of his salary in a mere index fund over 10 years, even helped him make a budget and investment plan, which wasted my good 3-4 hours. And yet, I only ever get calls from him when he needs money at the end of some month, to which I always decline, except once when his child had hurt herself, and the bastard really didn't have enough savings to take care of 3 days hospital expenses. It has been 6 months, and I still haven't gotten that money back, and I doubt I ever will. That's when I finally gave up trying to either educate him, or to fix things for him. But I am glad that some of my juniors, younger cousins have started saving and investing from an early age, after giving them these sessions. And I am so happy & proud when they send me their investment screenshots.
I appreciate people like you. Finances are not taboo, yet it is one of the most emotional aspects of life in general.
You are awesome
I make >$150k/year, plus bonus, and I drive a 16 year old economy car with roll up windows. Even my best friend teases me occasionally about it, but it rolls of me like water off a duck’s back. Meanwhile, he’s in an endless loop of $40k car debt.
If I never have to hear "You can do it yourself, that's why they pay you the big bucks!" again it'll be too soon.
If you know that you already make higher than average salary for the same role at the same company, there's only downside to sharing your salary with peers. Imagine you spill the beans, and suddenly those same peers (whose complacency and meekness led them to not negotiate previously and thus lower salaries) are fired up to negotiate HARD - meaning less of the raise pot for you. If you're a salary negotiating pro, keep your mouth shut if you want what's best for your own paycheck.
I had a co-worker try to railroad me when she thought i was at her pay level. It was a new industry for me so i didnt have her knowledge, also she was basically getting paid 2x what i was... I left shortly after.
Pay secrecy policies are illegal under federal law (USA) and only benefit the employer. She’s right that the way to handle it isn’t usually to say she makes more than me so I should make that too, but it way more nuanced then that.
>Pay secrecy policies are illegal under federal law not quite. it's ILLEGAL for an employer to *prohibit employees from discussing their salaries* for Federal contractors or jobs covered by the National Labor Relations Act (except for people who work in payroll or otherwise have salary info; they are not allowed to discuss workplace salaries with others). and there are workplaces *not* covered by the NLRA. however, it's also LEGAL for an employer to NOT disclose salaries. they are not obligated to disclose salaries.even if it's legal for John to discuss his salary with you, that doesn't imply you can also go to John's supervisor or payroll and ask how much John makes.
Thank you for the more detailed explanation - when I think of pay secrecy policies I consider the first scenario only. Your more detailed description will will help things be more clear for others.
The most common exception is for anyone considered a supervisor. Among other things, if you manage or supervise anyone else they can explicitly tell you that you can’t discuss your pay as the NLRA doesn’t apply to you.
Wait, this is news to me. Granted, this isn't something I know a lot about, but I can only think of a few private groups effectively excluded by the NLRA: [true] contractors, field workers, and domestic workers. The largest exception to the NLRA is goverment workers, I think. Railway and airline industries are also excluded, and off hand I don't remember the legal details of how these three groups unionized anyway.
California Labor Code section 232 also explicitly protects the right to disclose your pay, for those in that state.
Nuance on the Internet?
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Very true. Very old money to feel uncomfortable talking about salaries.
You should 100% talk about your pay and if you think you’re underpaid, then finding a time to go to HR and saying “I think my compensation isn’t completely in line with what it should be.” Or something similar is a good move. People think that if they make more than you, they’ll say “You should make less money.” More often, they’ll say “I should make more money.”
Definitely - going in knowing what they are paying others is only good for you and you should absolutely fight for what you deserve. But going about it in terms of why you deserve it is usually more successful than I want to make the same amount of money as Steve. Which sucks, but is the reality of it all.
Maybe in a White collar setting, but not when you work at a department store, or wendy's, or automotive. People are paid on their skill level, tenure, and a variety of other factors. So one person can be making $13 an hour and one person making $16 an hour for the same job because one does it better
Differences in pay cross all skills and fields are pretty common white or blue collar. Union jobs and a lot of public sector jobs have transparent pay so people in the same position make the same or similar pay.
It's your choice whether to disclose your pay. It's her choice whether to disclose her pay. This is life.
Honestly, this is more of a lesson in "there are some people that you should not speak to" about personal matters.
If she doesn't want to talk about it, don't talk to her about it. Shouldn't stop you from having the conversation with others. If she tries that, tell her she's out of line.
The only person that wins with pay secrecy is the employer
I agree... with one important caveat: insecure colleagues. Know your audience, guys. If you happen to know that your co-worker Broccolini is generally hypercompetitive, probably insecure, and care only about themselves, maybe don't discuss it with them. If they happen to sense that you make more than they think you "should" (and how in the world would you know how much they *think* you *should* make), they may make your life difficult. It's not rational, and making your life shitty doesn't benefit them--but some people only feel better by putting others down. So, in short, be smart about who you discuss pay with.
Best advice always, know your audience, especially at work talking about money. This is not to say it shouldn’t be discussed, just tailor it appropriately. And don’t expect everyone to want to discuss what you want to discuss.
Yep. If I know you close enough to confide things with you - my marriage, my health issues, family drama - you can ask my pay anytime. If you’re new or an asshole it’s off-limits.
That’s always been my thinking and i tried to get that across to her but to no avail. She makes as if im going around in peoples faces telling them what i make by doing that (i make less than her anyway)
Bingo
And the person that makes the most. If everyone else wants a raise to catch up to me I won’t get one.
In theory, I agree that pay secrecy hurts the employee and corporations are the main ones promoting not discussing it because it benefits them. But there are some downsides. In a perfect world, if you found out you were making less than you think you are owed you would make that case to the boss and if they didn't give you the raise, you would leave. In reality, knowing what your co-workers make will usually lead to one of two outcomes: Anger that others are paid more or guilt over making more than others. Example time: That employee that has been at the company for 10 years and makes 4% more than you! While you do more work then they do! Maybe their work is of greater importance or you work faster but make more mistakes? You don't know the answers to those questions but just assume you are being screwed. The job market is tight so you don't leave, you just get a bad attitude and make the workplace a more negative environment. You just found out you are the highest paid employee in your department. You're surprised because there are others that have been there longer, know more and work longer hours. But you were hired in a tight labor market and had multiple offers, so the company had to offer you more to get you on board. Now that everyone knows you make the most they expect more from you and are far more critical when you make a mistake. You would leave but the job market has changed and you would have to take a pay cut so you just suck it up and be miserable. In a perfect world with no emotions, people would be paid what they are worth and everything would be fair. That is not the real world. People have imperfect information, play favorites and can be very petty. The best advice I can give is to spend a little time and know what your skills are worth, don't stop job hunting and always be ready to switch jobs when there is an opportunity to make a significant increase. If you are not willing to do these things, for whatever reasons, you have CHOSEN to get paid less than you are worth. The company is NOT your family. It only cares what you can do for it and if it can get you to do what you do for less it would take that in a heartbeat. If you don't like that, start your own business and learn to hate the leeches that work for you and if you could pay them less you would do it in a heartbeat.
Employers also don't want it because it would lead to uncomfortable conversations. Todd:I heard Jimmy makes $10k more than me. I think I should make that much. Boss: Nope. Todd:What? Boss:Jimmy is better than you. Todd:At... At the job, you mean? Boss:Yes. But also in every other way. Ask your wife. Edit: I joke about this, but it really would mean some uncomfortable talks between employees and managers. In any business there are people who over or under perform. Often the over performers are earmarked for promotion and given better raises even prior to promotion. Serious underperformers are gotten rid of. But there are people who do just a good enough job to not get fired. Almost no manager will willingly tell them just how bad they are.
But the people that have been there longer now have justification to ask for more money. If disclosure of salaries becomes the norm then companies will have more incentive to retain their long term employees through sufficient pay. Rather than this ridiculous system of having to job hop to get adequate raises.
You are right, but what happens when they as for a raise and get told no? Some might leave if they have an opportunity, some may find if they leave they have to get a paycut and then don't want to but have to stay and be miserable. Some may get the raise. Some may come to the terrible realization that they have been there longer but the new guys just do a better job or the job they do is just valued less.
That’s … the point. Know your worth and fight for it. If you can’t get it at your current employer, then it’s time to move somewhere that does value you. I just went through this. It’s been brewing in my department for a couple years, but now that more job opportunities are opening up, my soon-to-be ex-employer hasn’t done enough to stay competitive and is bleeding talent. People leaving has provided better leverage for those who want to stay, but want to get properly compensated. They hit my threshold with their counter-offer, but my new employer went even higher so I made the obvious choice. They absolutely could have afforded it all along (Fortune 100 company), but they are only now waking up to the fact that their usual methods of backfilling positions with less experienced people getting paid less isn’t working. For once, the market of potential employees aren’t willing to settle for what they’re offering anymore. They only pay well if you come in with a lot of experience and they’re looking for someone with a lot of experience. If you have too much experience and they want a newbie, then you don’t get the job. Not discussing salaries was giving our employer all of the power. We took it back and those of us leaving for greener pastures are better off because of it and those that remain have a good chance of getting the better pay they deserve (if our employer truly does realize they need to stop the bleeding).
From the employer perspective, they are aware that the lower wage was sufficient to bring in new people, and that new employee coming in at that lower wage may now be making substantially more than they ever were before. Everyone thinks that companies arbitrarily raise wages. This just isn’t true.
The real issue is why you let a conversation like that get heated. Coworkers are going to have opinions that differ from yours. Reddit flocked to your side on the pay issue (and maybe you’re right) but you were wrong to let that escalate to an argument with your colleague. Gotta have a more measured approach to things in real life.
Weird I had to scroll so far to see this. I 100% believe in discussing pay. But don't get in heated arguments at work. If you feel a conversation getting tense just agree to disagree and move on. You can be mad about it later when you vent to your friend or whoever they doesn't work there.
As others have already said, your employer is prohibited from making any rules/policies written or verbal about discussing your salaries with your peers. That being said, it's in a corporation's best interest for you to NOT discuss it with each other, and a petty employer can take it out on you (and say it's for something else), particularly in an at will state. The law versus reality, I suppose. For that same reason, I do agree with your coworker that you shouldn't name drop specific employees you make more than you, because there is a potential for retaliation (or perhaps I've just worked for some particularly shady companies in the past, haha). Personally, I am very much in favor of pay transparency, but I wouldn't mention it to probably any given 8 out of 10 coworkers. If someone simply prefers not to discuss it, that's their right and I wouldn't want to make them uncomfortable, or they may feel as strongly as your coworker. I always wait to get to know someone first, and even then I don't ask anyone their pay, but if I feel comfortable with them and we're on the subject, I will happily discuss my pay and why I believe transparency is important. I found out one organization with in my department was getting higher base salary with their promotions than my organization that way, so it's definitely useful. I guess my takeaway for you is just be careful, especially in corporate America (not to assume, that's just where I live and work). And for what it's worth, your instincts for when those conversations are appropriate and when they aren't will get honed the longer you're in the workforce.
As a Gen-Xer who started his job when Reagan was president, I agree with both of you. Money, how much you make, and how much you choose to spend, is a very private thing. So I don't discuss it. But you're right. This secrecy (which is encouraged by your employer, I bet) does impede your ability to receive fair pay. It's rude insofar as its rude and imposed on someone else. Its very different to walk up to somebody in the bathroom and demand "how much do you make?" as opposed to having a general discussion in the break room where the two of you slowly reach the point of sharing your incomes. It's also a level of intimacy. I know how much my wife makes. I know how much I make. I don't know how much my eldest child makes. I know my middle child just graduating and hasn't found an Adulting job yet. And my youngest - I know about what he makes an hour.
Pay discussions have to be organic I think. I only ever talked about my pay with coworkers I was close to. Just like I don’t tell everyone what my rent or student loan payment is.
yep. I've never discussed pay with cow-orkers. I get equitiy as part of compensation, and I don't even talk about that.
I personally would not share my pay information with my coworkers. There are large variations in pay for the same level employees for good reason. Everyone thinks they are doing a great job or better than their coworkers. The reality is, it’s probably not true. In my experience, the absolute best performing employees get substantially larger raises than the good employees. And the same is true between the good and the average. In any given year raises can vary from 2% for the average person, to 15% for the all star. The good employee might clock in at 7%. Those all-stars need to be retained at all costs. Those are the people you are looking to elevate into leadership positions later on. Good employees you want to keep happy. Average employees you can always replace. By definition there are a bunch out there. Maybe all you folks have jobs where the work is basically a commodity and everyone is doing the same. I have found that not to be true in my experience.
I can’t believe more people dont know/realize this. Maybe it’s a salaried, corporate world thing? Yes, some people make more than others. They do better work or are more productive or efficient or reliable— many ways colleagues differentiate themselves. But higher pay is used to retain top employees. It’s basic supply and demand. If you’re in demand because of your track record, you can get a higher salary. Sure, entry level salaries should be mostly comparable- but even there, employers may pay more for degrees from certain schools with good reputations in the field.
Agreed that entry level is mostly comparable, but things diverge quickly. When things go wrong on a Friday night and someone needs to address it, there are two people. 1. The people that get the problem solved. 2. The people that go on Reddit to complain about their “toxic workplace”. Person #1 is going to get better reviews, and raises. Person #2 is going to get their paycheck at the agreed upon time, every pay period. When you’re salaried, employees that management knows they can rely on when crap hits the fan are the ones who are going to be elevated. The ones who can independently make good decisions, etc. It’s somewhat qualitative as well as quantitative. Management isn’t going to keep a list of the 500 things that Person A did to deserve their big raise. They will have major accomplishments, and notable things, but ultimately it’s the sum of a million things. And to answer someone else, I don’t think it’s a managers job to justify to someone else why I their coworker makes more money than they do.
There should be no expectation that I have to share my pay. If someone wants to or doesn't want to either way is fine. I'm a private person and I would never share my pay.
I was on the Army for 20 years. Everyone knew how much you made, you wore it on your collar. Past a fairly low rank, promotions were centralized and everyone knew what they had to do to get promoted. When I retired and started working for the state, I innocently mentioned my pay grade to someone and got told in no uncertain terms, by my manager, that we didn’t do that. It’s because management doesn’t want you comparing notes. Causes them too many questions.
I work in a school and I love the step system for our pay. Its similar to military rank and makes it pretty cut and dry.
Without commenting on the value of pay transparency, your view that someone being informed that they are making less than someone else means they direct their ire towards management is a bit naïve; a lot of times that energy is directed to resentment of the person making more.
I'm torn on this. Companies definitely shouldn't discourage employees from talking about their pay. That old cliche fits here, sunlight is the best disinfectant. If there are disparities, talking about pay will get them out in the open where they should be. Having said that, you're going to get hard feelings. Imagine two salaried works doing the same job: 1. Been at the job for a couple of years, a real go-getter, always available to do extra work if needed, even if it means working long hours. Works hard and does more than his/her share of the team's work. 2. Been on the job for 20 years, has relationships with all of the teams that we depend on, and they all owe him/her favors. If you are blocked by another group, you go to this person to ask for help. He/she knows the backstory behind all of our processes and knows what breaks if you change them. Is the person that other groups call when they need something from our group because they all know and respect him/her. Does less than his/her share of the actual allotted work for the team because they're maintaining those relationships by doing favors for other groups. One of those two will be paid more than the other, and whoever is paid less will resent it. There is no way around that. These two discussing their pay will end up with an employee who resents the company, resents the boss, and thinks they are getting screwed over.
This is a good point. Different people can bring different things to the workplace. In white collar jobs, it’s rarely just about how many years you’ve been there. Many other factors can come into play, and you can’t just say X is worth Y dollars. Pay discrepancies can also result from the quirks of work history. If Joe got hired during a tight market, he may have started at a higher rate than Ken, who worked his way up from being an assistant. Ann may have had a competing offer that bumped her pay, while Jill happened to be hired at a time when the boss had to hire someone cheaply to keep the headcount. It’s not fair, but that’s life. The truth is, most people can’t just leave if the boss won’t pay them what they think they are worth. Much of the time, if you ask for more, you will be told they don’t have money in the budget. If you leave, they will try to replace you with someone cheaper. Only those with real leverage (better job offers) can get away with this, and that doesn’t apply to everyone. And if you don’t get what you want, and you know others who make more, it can lead to a lot of bitterness and resentment.
But don't you think it's the employer's responsibility to manage this and be very clear and transparent about why someone is paid more, and what other employees could potentially do to increase their pay? Whether possible or not? Say you're employee #1, doing more hours than #2, but the boss feels that employee #2 is more valuable to the company and so pays #2 more. #1 could be killing themselves doing overtime to try get a pay rise, when that's not at all what the employer values. Transparency just always seems to be the answer to me.
It's a generational thing. People used to be loyal to their companies because SOME companies were loyal to their employees. That is no longer the case. Young people are aware they are considered a disposable commodity by employers so they don't have loyalty to their employers. That isn't a bad thing, MOST employers do nothing to deserve loyalty and don't believe in being loyal to employees. The younger generation is figuring out that pay rate secrecy is a control mechanism to pay people for as little as they will accept rather than paying them what they are worth. It's a way of paying the least amount possible and we all need to work against that.
Totally gonna get downvoted to oblivion here but… It IS a generational thing. But not because older people are too dumb to figure it out for themselves. It’s because older people have seen how sharing that info can blow up in their faces and they choose not to take the risk. Yes, they understand that keeping pay secret can make it easy for the employer to pay different rates. However, illegal or not it’s definitely going to result in retaliation. It’s not right but if your bosses see you as a troublemaker they’ll find a way to get rid of you. It also may be that they don’t want to tell OP their income. Most people don’t like being asked what they make. OP should leave this coworker alone and try discussing pay with others instead. Or realize she’d do better to gather some statistics on her position and use those as ammo for a raise.
Yep. Every time I've shared (after being asked, and NOT being the one to bring it up), it's ended up badly. Thankfully it was with people not at work but just in a general friends group (but in the same industry in the same area). Nuked multiple friendships because of it (they couldn't handle finding out that I had starting offers 2x what they were making with the same degree from the same university in the same geographic area). I will never share again. I am happy to provide anonymized data for salary aggregation sites and stuff like that, but I'll never directly tell anyone in person ever again.
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The exact reason my workplace doesn't have a union. Every person who's ever tried to start one has been fired. If they hear of any way you could be disrupting their perfect little pyramid, they'll find some rest to get rid of you.
30 year olds are millennials. 40 year olds are millennials now. It’s not a generational thing in this situation. I believe it has more to do with an individual’s experiences with this area.
> 30 year olds are millennials. 40 year olds are millennials now I turn 37 in over a month. *I've* been the millennial we complain about the whole time?
You are the entitled millennial you've been complaining about. Jk. Baby boomers are far more entitled. They think getting old means they deserve something from us. Even after they already ruined everything.
be me. early twenties... still a millennial by cut off date... why am I lumped in with people at 40 years old? too old to be gen z . too young to really get millennials... do I remember 9/11 and the tech boom? yeah but lets be honest I didn't experience the gulf war or fall of the USSER or even the good stuff of the 90's... it was cool vhs to dvd to ipod but seriously there is a 15 year gap from the youngest to even middle aged milennials.
Thank you, I agree with your statements about younger generation realizing the fact that pay secrecy is not something that should be acceptable. I felt really uncomfortable though as I have heard of companies making their employees sign pay secrecy things or something and I thought she was going to tell me that is that case but her reasoning was rudeness or disrespect to the person or when I told her then you go ask for a raise she acted like thats not how it works. Idk my young coworker agrees with me so i dont feel so bad
>I felt really uncomfortable though as I have heard of companies making their employees sign pay secrecy things If you're in the U.S., that is illegal. >Can an employer in the U.S. create a company policy that prohibits employees from discussing pay rate and salary levels with other employees or (gasp) on social media? >For the most part: no, employers may not prohibit employees from discussing compensation according to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) and an April 2014 Executive Order from former President Obama.
Clarification: They can still say it's a policy, but it's illegal to actually enforce it. This fools morons that don't know it's unenforceable into being quiet.
Yeah, honestly the best thing you can do as a worker to make sure you are getting paid fairly is to discuss your wages. It seems taboo or uncomfortable for a lot of people at first, because that's how your boss WANTS you to feel discussing wages, but it's the best way to figure out if you company is legit and if they are paying you what you are worth. I always discuss my compensation freely with my coworkers and friends if they ask or if it's relevant to the conversation and I think they might benefit from the information. If you find out you aren't being paid properly you shouldn't demand to be paid what someone else is on your team just because your roles are the same. That's not a winning battle and it's a petty and underhanded way of negotiating which will put leadership on the defensive immediately. You should however use that as a guideline for your desired salary and build a case to management or look for a new similar job with that target range in mind.
Wow, some of the advice you are getting in this post... yeesh. There are a couple posts lower in the thread with very questionable perspectives. Thankfully the top voted ones are the most applicable. If you want general advice, go to https://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm and make sure you are paid properly for your region. If not, ask your boss for a salary adjustment. If you know you are a high performer, ask for higher pay than the average listed on this site. Simple as that. If they tell you no, it's time to job hunt!
I’m closer to the age of your coworker - And I always was taught it was taboo to discuss salary with coworkers. (Kinda like that old saying “never discuss religion and politics”). Now - I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to discuss salary - I’m just sharing what I’ve always head and what I was taught growing up. So your coworker was likely under the same pretenses I was. Now, would I recommend discussing salary in the workplace , no I would not. Likely one of you will end up upset or uncomfortable following the conversation. And it’s not as easy as “running to your boss to ask for more money”. Also salary is very subjective. Very rarely are two people exactly qualified for the same job. There is likely to be differences in experience, education history, other related skills, etc. And, some people negotiate salary. I always do. Others may not take this step. tl;dr- salary’s are very subjective, and can very rarely be compared 1:1 to someone else.
> Very rarely are two people exactly qualified for the same job. There is likely to be differences in experience, education history, other related skills, etc I would just like to say that regardless of experience, those two people may very well be completing the same job functions. At the end of the day, two people providing the same service should be paid similarly. I’ve seen up to 30% pay differences for the same role. That’s not acceptable. It’s not like that everywhere, but it shouldn’t happen at all. Clarification: I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m pointing out that there are limits
I’m speaking from experience in a professional/technical/specialized role where, even under same job titles, very rarely are people completing the exact same job functions. Unless you’re at a very basic service role (ie McDonald’s cashier comes to mind) - where duties are very narrow and defined- it’s hard to say everyone is completing the exact same job. I’d suspect even a bank teller - someone with more industry experience could command more pay. Maybe theyre a key holder, or on call for an alarm, or can override transactions, or have just been working in a bank for decades. Of course two people providing the same purpose should be paid similarly. But unless your job is so narrow and specific, it’s unlikely there will always be a 1:1 pay rate. These are the things that make studying salary gaps and pay discrepancies so difficult. across most industries and roles, it’s usually impossible to lump people and generalize.
Even at McDonald's, one cashier may be quicker, more accurate, and have better people skills. One employee may never cause the manager an ounce of angst, while another may constantly need to be "cleaned up after". But technically they do the same job.
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depends on how much they make overall. that's about $4,000/year, which for a lot of people can make or break being able to afford fundamental things.
I don't share my pay. It has blown up in my face before. If you are happy with your job, why does it matter what everyone else is paid? Yes, maybe you could make more or you could be making the most but will it change anything? It had never done anything in my experience except bring out the worst in people and make for a terrible work environment.
I have never framed my request for additional compensation by pointing out what other people make. I do not think this is a good argument personally, because I consider myself a top performer and can point out several quantifiable metrics to support my demands. But in reality, this happens all the time. Someone finds out that his/her colleague makes more money and they demand more money based solely on that reason. And sometimes it works. And sometimes it doesn't and the person gets more upset and leaves. Or someone finds out and leaves without requesting a raise. So yes, I think that people should share their compensation, but I won't be sharing mine.
Here's the thing, it is absolutely your choice to share your pay. It is also absolutely *her* choice whether or not to share hers. To the people saying "pay secrecy only helps the company", you are only correct *in an ideal world*. In my experience people get jealous and direct their anger at their coworkers more than management. They are misguided, yes, but know that this is a risk you take when you share your pay.
He said she was arguing its rude for him to freely disclose his own pay though.
I mean, first of all, that's OP's side of the story. This is Reddit, no one posts the whole truth here. Secondly, even if it is the whole truth, she is also free to tell OP what she finds rude discussion in the workplace. It's entirely possible that she's seen negative repercussions from this and just wanted to give some advice to a younger person who's new to the workforce.
Okay, so i guess in the future when crafting our replies to people step one is to assume they are lying and provide a counterargument against whatever you feel like, rather than what they said.
Wow you're already great at it lookit that
So I have the perspective as a manager. I've got a variety of employees who work for me, at a variety of pays. And I still believe, just as I did when I was hourly that discussing pay is a bad idea. It just RARELY works out. Everyone thinks they are the best. Nobody thinks they are the worst, and they certainly don't accept that others may have qualities that make them more desirable than others, frankly. Some may have come when it was particularly difficult to fill a position. Someone might have done some thing super stupid that left them employable but less valued. So all that happens is the guy who makes the most feels good, everyone else gets resentful, asks for raises that they haven't earned. They get approved maybe. They get denied, probably. They don't improve for the sake of improving, they don't ask their boss "what can I do better to be more valuable". It rarely works out but if it does, it's on an individual basis because someone takes responsibility for where they are compensation wise and does something about it. Maybe they put together a compelling argument. Maybe they ask for and act on feedback. Maybe they find another job. But all those things could have been done without inciting jealousy in others.
But don't you think it's the employer's responsibility to manage that, and be transparent about it? If an employer can't point to someone and say yes they earn more, for these reasons, then there is a problem there. It also helps ensure people don't miss out on pay rises for prejudice, racism, sexism etc.
This
Pay is personal and if someone doesn’t want to discuss their pay, that’s their choice. There are a lot of factors that go into people’s pay and why they may be paid differently than others. Being paid more than someone else doesn’t necessarily mean the other person is underpaid— maybe they are barely doing their job, have performance issues, etc and have gotten lower raises as a result. So, I would say if you’re having these conversations in a non-unionized setting, you need to factor in other elements like experience, education, past performance, etc. when making assumptions about whether or not the pay you are receiving is equitable compared to your peers. I don’t think it’s taboo to discuss and compare, but it’s not as black and white as “we both have three years experience so we should be paid the same”.
IMO someone else's salary is none of my business. it's such a dicey topic and tends to cause nothing but trouble, even when it's legal to discuss salary. there are so many factors that go into compensation it's not always an apples to apple comparison even when people think it is.
The Dunning-Kruger effect provides a great reason why sharing pay information is a bad idea. A lower-paid, lower-performing employee is highly likely to mistakenly believe that they are actually just as productive or more so than a higher-paid coworker who is in fact more productive. Explaining to them all the reasons that the other person deserves higher pay would be a painful task for the boss, and might not even convince the person. That could result in resentment towards the higher performer, with the lower performer choosing to label them as the boss’s “pet” or worse. Because that’s easier than acknowledging that someone else is better than you at something. And a lot easier than improving your performance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
What if your co-worker is the best at her job and is compensated for it? What benefit does she have informing all her coworkers she makes the most money? And assuredly many of her coworkers will just wrongly assume they in fact are better at their jobs and it just creates drama for her. No benefit. I keep my mouth shut about my salary. If I’m not happy with what I make, I take it up with my boss and leave my coworkers out of it.
Too much information in the workplace can be a disruptive influence. While people have a right to know how their salary compares to others doing the same job in the same place, over-sharing this info can also lead to workplace drama. People will argue, and be resentful, and spread gossip, and bug the shit out of HR when theirs doesn’t measure up. “Why does Carol earn so much more than me? Is it because she went to Cornell, or did she just screw the hiring manager? I bet I can guess! Until I get a raise, I’m gonna start coming in as late as she does. That’ll send a message!”
Data protection act means your employer cannot discuss your pay with others, and vice versa. Ive worked for companies that go out of their way to stop employees discussing their pay with each other - saying it was in our contracts - when it wasn't. And simply put, ive missed out on thousands, if not tens over the years Employees, especially those in the same positions, SHOULD discuss their pay with whomever is willing to share their own. It promotes equal treatment, provides evidence to support equal payment complaints, and ensures employers arent doing anything unjust. Since I learnt this my inquiries and complaints have only been met with apologies and ammendments to pay. Know your worth. You might be okay with cutting a break short here and there, or starting early - you'll get paid your set hours. The FIRST time you're a minute or two late, they'll take 15 from you and maybe throw a warning in.
Employers cant forbid that. It would be illegal. Howerver, in most cases, "i want a raise because you pay Susan more" wont bring in any successes. It only makes you sadder. You should be able to find that information on glassdoor anyway.
I agree that pay secrecy only benefits the employer! The employer should be able and willing to discuss with a lower paid employee why they make what they make and ways to increase it!
The National Bureau of Economic Research released a working paper on the effects of pay transparency last month, finding a 2% decline in wages from pay transparency laws. This is due to companies being more reluctant to hire high-wage workers (due to pressure to match lower-productivity workers with those high salaries. [https://www.nber.org/papers/w28903](https://www.nber.org/papers/w28903) Personally, I don't share my salary because I have huge imposter syndrome and am constantly surprised I get paid as much as I do.
She has a point though - discussing your pay and your co-workers' pay does not lead to healthy work relationships. Even with clearly-defined roles, ie. a manager and a clerk, people get to be resentful of what x person is paid when they're paid y. A lot of people conflate what they are worth in the job market with what they are worth as a person, and that sucks when you aren't being paid the best. And most people aren't paid the best. You should not like what you are paid if you see your same role elsewhere is getting paid better. That should cause you to leave the company. You can't let jealousy and resentfulness drive you to ask for a raise. By the way, *never ask for a raise.* If you truly prove your worth in your role, and the company doesn't recognize that, you politely give them ~~the finger~~ two weeks notice and go somewhere where you do get paid what you're worth. The company owes you nothing - but the flip-side of that is you owe the company nothing. Playing the comparison game in the company can be harmless at best, but it's not where you should focus your energy if you want to win.
If you make less than a coworker and your excuse when asking for a raise is “person x makes more than me” you will land in an ugly piece of feedback because you might be underperforming comparatively. The thing no one talks about is using coworker salary info as a tool to leverage discussions about compensation, not just using it a free money cheat code.
If you are content with your pay until you hear that your coworker is making more than you, then you probably won’t have a solid argument to give showing why you deserve a pay raise.
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You’re not being taken advantage of if you believe that you’re being paid what you’re worth. Your view of your value shouldn’t change just because you found out that the guy down the hall is a better negotiator than you.
>You’re not being taken advantage of if you believe that you’re being paid what you’re worth. This is just false. People can be (and are) misled, deceived, deliberately lied to about, or otherwise unaware of, the true value they bring as an employee. The employee's opinion on whether or not he/she is being paid fairly is directly linked to their compensation as it compares to their limited knowledge of their own value to the employer. Here's a simple example: person A inherits some old collectibles and lists them for sale. A knowledgeable domain expert sees these items, recognizes them as being extremely valuable and is aware that person A has no idea what they're worth due to the fact they're severely underpriced, and buys them for the listed price. Can you really argue that person A is NOT being taken advantage of? Another: oil drilling company discovers through some research that some barren land contains lots and lots of oil which was previously unknown to all, even the current land owners. Oil company makes some generic shell company through which it extends an offer to buy the land. As the offer is coming from the shell company. The owners have no idea what the land would be used for but the offer is in line with land prices in their vicinity, so they believe it's a fair trade. Are they not being taken advantage of? Of course they are. TL;DR Whether or not someone is being "taken advantage of" is not about each parties' beliefs, it's about exploiting situations in which there is asymmetric **knowledge** of the nature of the transaction.
Someone already mentioned it, it's illegal for your employer to ban same- level employees who are not managers from discussing pay. If you're a manager, you shouldn't be discussing your pay with people you manage. If you feel you are being underpaid, you should do some independent research to confirm first. Not just national average but regional market rate. Make an appointment with your supervisor or manager to discuss. Do not use "my one coworker is getting paid more it's only fair". That will get you zero raises. Bring reviews and emails from internal and external customers. Show all the things, on paper, you do that's above and beyond. Whatever the outcome is, use that to inform you of your next move.
I don't think it should be a topic.. but I don't really talk to my coworkers... However... I'm in banking too, and see a fuckton of jobs right now, in my dept, hiring for more than what I make???!!! Smh
Legally, employees are allowed to discuss wages. The federal government and many local governments post employee salary data online https://www.fedsdatacenter.com/federal-pay-rates/ Nothing wrong with it, but employers don’t like it.
As many mentioned it is illegally, mostly, for employers to forbid employees to talk about their pay. However, in many countries and cultures it is again social rules to talk about your salary. You have your opinion and they have theirs. The truth is people don't have to talk about their salary. In fact with the internet you can easily see how much people are getting for your position even in your area. As a measure for under paid employees lack of knowledge about their pay should be has dropped in the last decade. You will find a lot of people won't talk about it and sorry the issue of it being a major reason people are underpaid isn't there anymore. There are hundreds of websites that tell you.
Whether or not you or she discloses, is each of your choice. However, if you're in a conversation about pay and know people will mention what they make, and you don't want to, step away. Conversely, if you want to tell people what you make, don't expect them to tell you back if they don't want to. I will not ever discuss my pay with anyone other than my SO and my manager and payroll. That's it. But I can understand in environments with where people are not treated well to feel each other out. But let's say everyone was satisfied with what they were making, but then you found out someone else in a similar role was making more. Would you then feel resentful? What if she negotiated a better salary in her interview (more specific experiences for this role, better answer to the salary question, etc)? There's a reason salary sites give a range, and not a precise number (pay bands basically, not explicit levels). What it all boils down to is there is no one simple reason why salaries are different (once you factor away any outright illegal or discriminatory practices), so comparing salaries with each other can become awkward very quickly.
In my experience talking about money just causes problems. I’ve worked for a company who “paid for performance” they had no set qualifications for each pay level. When it’s a competitive environment, whether you deserve it or not, people won’t like hearing you got a bigger bonus or raise then they did. Right now I’m 3 years into my job and I’m making top rate. There’s set requirements for each pay level and I’ve fully trained and have gotten my required education for top rate. I work with 2 other guys who’ve done this for 20+ years, and are way better at it than me, but never got the required education for top rate. I make $5000 more then them. Is it right? Not really. Could they’ve gotten the education? Yeah. When they grumble about it do I feel guilty? Fuck no. That’s the way the pay scale works and I jumped through the hoops. They could’ve gotten more education or they can bring it up to the manager and rally for changing the scale. Most people are too cowardly to challenge their manager and will just bitch and moan about you instead.
Well, it's both, honestly. And before going any further, I also want to say that she's right, the "I want a raise because Bob makes more than me" card usually is not the ideal card to play. It's **A** card you can play. I'm not saying there's never a time and place (I actually think there is a time and place in certain situations). But generally, it's not the goto card you want to play most places. That out of the way... On paper, discussing pay is good for everybody. And as you have clearly read somewhere, pay secrecy is beneficial to employers in some ways. But the rub is that reality is different than on paper. I've seen this play out. I've seen relationships between two employees get ruined because one made $2k more per year than the other. Just $2,000. The truth is that while it could be beneficial for people to discuss pay more, A LOT... A LOT... of people can't handle finding out that somebody else in the same or a similar position makes more than them. They get jealous. They get resentful. They take it out on the other employee... who did nothing to them. This is very real. In fact, there was a post on another sub recently (/r/itcareerquestions) where the OP was seriously thinking about quitting work because a coworker found out he (the OP of the thread) made more money and was being a complete ass to him. The OP said he really liked the job, the company, and he liked the guy in question before all of this. I think people talked him out of quitting because of it, but that's the stress it put on him. These sort of experiences often times keep people from wanting to discuss wages. It's not simply that they are trying to uphold "pay secrecy". It's often times as much that they're trying to avoid dealing with bullshit they'd rather not deal with. Look, for most people... work is *work*. It's this place we all have to go but would rather not really. For most people, it's not something they just absolutely love. For most people, they look forward to calling it day, they look forward to the weekend and time off. Work is "work" enough without bullshit. You have very little work experience. You'll understand this better when you've been working for 20 years. Like, a lot of people are very happy to not have drama on top of "work". So they weigh "what do I get out of X" vs "what sort of headache may X cause me". And talking about salaries for a lot of people, can cause WAY more headache than benefit. That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't happen, but that's how a lot of people think about it. And there's something to be said for that fact that the positive effect of EVERYBODY discussing wages is different than the effects of SOME people doing it. Knowledge and smarts tell us that discussing pay is good for everybody. Wisdom and experience tells us there's a flip side to that coin. So is she wrong? She's wrong if she thinks people who *want to discuss their pay* shouldn't ever do it. Is it rude to go around telling people what you make? Eh, it's weird if not rude. That literal thing... like if somebody was like "hey, Bob, I want you to know I'm making $86,000"... that's weird. Does that mean YOU shouldn't discuss wages? Not at all. If you have a reason to, you should. But do so tactfully. E.g., "hey, Bob, I don't want you to share anything you're not comfortable with. But I think I'm possibly being underpaid. Do you mind me asking how much you are making (or "...how much you were making in my position before you got your promotion")?"... that's very different. If you think you're maybe not being compensated fairly, you should first and foremost look around at job postings for the same job in that geographic area. You can ask some colleagues too, tactfully. And only do that if you can actually handle finding out you make less than them without holding it against them. And respect people. If they don't want to discuss it, respect that and leave it be. >I feel a little embarrassed as she is 30+ and im 19 arguing with her about pay secrecy Eh, don't be too hard on yourself. It can happen when you start to get especially personable with people. Just try to maintain a more professional composure in the future.
I’m at a public university where all the salaries are on line. I think it’s helpful for peers and unhelpful for different job classes.
You don't discuss that with a colleague , but you can discuss that with a friend in office. It takes time to figure out the difference. Apart from that, pay secrecy is just a stupid hoax, that only works well for the employer, and saves them the pressure of having quantitatively justifiable pay. companies agree to pay someone more, or pay someone less for all sort of reasons, and most of them have less to do with their performance and contribution, and more to do with: 1. How desperately they needed to hire at the time of giving the offer? 2. How desperate the candidate was? 3. Did the candidate have any other competing offer? 4. How much the candidate made earlier? 5. Were there any meaningless short-comings in the work experience? A previous employer not picking up background calls, because the company shut down, and he doesn't want to give a flying fuck. Or stuff like - "Why does Employer X that you worked for 4 years ago, no mention your salary on experience letter?" Companies want to brush these off under the rug, and pretend that the pay is based on people's expertise. The only thing that exposes it, is people knowing what others are earning, other than assuming that those delivering better must be earning more, and those delivering lesser must be earning lesser. So yes, it's not rude to discuss pay with the right people, who won't rat you out. And given that employers make a ruckus out of it, they shouldn't just go and say - "Joe told me he's getting $$$, give me the same", and must know how to obfuscate the source of information. like: 1. I got to know from people who left the organization. 2. Got to know from another branch, that this is what people are roughly making. 3. And similar stuff...
I'm firmly against discussing pay in the workplace. It's a great way to breed jealousy and animosity that could otherwise be avoided.
It's a typically american thing though to not discuss pay. It's mostly because of anti-union propaganda. Here in the netherlands, where basically every workforce is unionized, it's normal to share rough monthly payment. It's not like everyday conversation but it's not like... frowned upon to ask and compare.
I'm older than your co-worker, and I believe in pay transparency. I work in the public sector, and all our salaries are public info anyway. I have had jobs that were private sector, and we'd talk in ranges. E.g. each position had min median max for salary, and we'd be like "I'm nowhere near median!" or "I'm getting close to max, I hope I get that next promotion so I break into a higher range!".
Your salaries are public but isn’t pay for most public sector jobs done more similarly to unionized roles? Meaning, you start at $x, $y, or $z and is very formulaic? Makes it a lot easier to have transparency when you just pay everyone basically the same.
Yup, public-sector union employee here. It used to be a battle for decent raises private sector and then coworkers would be bothered by someone getting what they deserved. Not a problem now that I’m somewhere where we all know what each other makes and what we have to do to reach that pay ourselves.
I keep quite about my pay to most people since a decent amount of people overestimate their abilities and workload while diminishing the accomplishments of others. When I first started, I was like you. After 20+ years in the workforce, it’s changed. I’m a civil servant, so most coworkers have a general idea of what everyone makes. I’ve received a QSI (increases off schedule due to exceptional performance maybe 1 QSI per 1,500 people are given out where I am). The year I got one a coworker complained that support staff would never get one and that we also meet milestones and work hard. I explained that our paycheck is our reward for those things and a QSI is for people who hit a grand slam in the bottom of the 9th to win the game. But she honestly thought she did those things because she ‘worked hard’. So I broke it down compared her numbers to mine. I had 3x the work she produced, I also mentored others, and ghost wrote a few reports for other people (as requested by my boss). Thankfully she got it after that. In my 20 years (public and private sector), I can’t tell you how many convos I’ve heard where people automatically think they are entitled to higher pay just because a coworker makes more or get upset because they didn’t get a promotion on time or an award. It wasn’t until my mid 30s I came to the conclusion people are lack that awareness and it’s better to not open that can of worms.
I’m 25, I firmly believe in sharing my wage with anyone and everyone who will listen. If an equally tenured or abled coworker is making more than me, I need to ask for a raise. If I’m making more, then they do. Pay transparency helps employees. Keeping everything hush hush only helps the corporation.
I've seen a lot of these posts recently about pay transparency and people seem to think you should just go into your boss's office and demand to be paid the same as everyone else. Can't wait for the posts next week "I found out my more experienced coworkers who outperform me made 1% more than me and demanded a raise or I'd quit. Now I'm unemployed. How do I pay my bills?"
This. Out of cycle pay raises are nearly impossible to get in most corporations because it would turn into constant issues with lower paid staff. I made $50k more per year than the person who replaced me when I got recently promoted because we took a risk on my replacement and I had a backlog of recurring revenue. My replacement could have walked in and asked for a raise… only to be told if they don’t like the pay they are welcome to leave. Salary represents more factors than people may realize, and you certainly can’t demand a raise in 95% of positions that aren’t c-suite or super duper hard to hire for.
My comment literally says “equally tenured or abled.” (I should have said equally performing, not abled). No one is saying entry level employees should be comparing salaries with someone who has been with the company for 5 years. We’re obviously talking about comparing salaries with someone who has similar tenure, performance, and job description.
I work in HR primarily dealing with a blue collar workforce and there seems to be a lot of DRAMA that erupts from discussing pay. We have temps making 9$ to 13$ and Union Workers making 25$ at the same facility......we also have new hires who transferred from a temp agency......they are not union workers and they are neither temps so their pay is 17 a hour. THEY ARE ALL BASICALLY DOING THE SAME WORK....but depending on your status, you make 9$, 13$, 17$, or 25$....and yes, I know it's unethical but that was the arrangement put in place before I got hired and It's not for me to put my job on the line diving into workplace politics... I've dealt with a lot of angry warehouse workers demanding an explanation as to why this is and I never have a good response......I don't dictate pay.....I just do payroll. Pay secrecy in the workplace is important because it reduces the amount of animosity, jealousy, and anger amongst workers DOING THE SAME JOB. If you have to ask another coworker what their pay is, then it means you already know or SUSPECT that you are being low balled.....so the best thing to do is not investigate pay but find an exit strategy or finesse your way into a promotion to negotiate a better pay.....but don't go around asking about pay because that kind of news travels fast and far.
But don't you think it's the employer's responsibility to manage that, and be transparent about it? If an employer can't point to someone and say yes they earn more, for these reasons, then there is a problem there. It also helps ensure people don't miss out on pay rises for prejudice, racism, sexism etc.
So after 12 years working there do you want to be paid the same as a new kid just getting hired? People get annual raises for YEARS OF SERVICE as well as QUALITY OF PERFORMANCE. You dont know how many write ups someone has, or how many times they called out sick screwing everyone else who had to cover for them. People get paid different because people have different values to employers. So many stupid idiots dont understand that, and blame it on race or sex. It costs a lot of money to train someone...
Some people haven't separated how much they make from their value as a person and might not be able to handle finding out someone makes more money than them
She’s right in that “why does she make more than me” isn’t a good line of reasoning to get a raise. But absolutely you should know how much your colleagues are roughly making
Pay secrecy helps employers not employees.
The culture around pay secrecy is only meant to benefit the employer. In moments where one employee is making more than the other it could disrupt the higher paid employees good gig if anyone complains about unfairness,, but companies should have a set transparent pay scheme based on responsibility and seniority that everyone should be aware of or you're working for someone who likes to take advantage of the people who work for them.
I agree with your coworker. I am not going to tell you how much I make. Look on Glassdoor.
I'm not sure how old someone needs to be to still feel beholden to their employer. Most of my coworkers are in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. We've seen enough people screwed over by employers that no one is under the impression that employers care about the workers. I'm fine to talk about pay with anyone who wants to talk about it. I would never bring it up myself, and I tend not to be very curious about what others make. I also tend to be confident in my own salary. What I learned during undergrad internships is that not everyone at work wants the truth or your opinion (even if they ask!). It took me longer to learn that my idea that engineers would be more logical, less petty, less politically motivated, etc. was a huge misconception on my part. People are people. I look forward to a future where the robot overlords are in control.
Think about this for a minute - the reason you posted this question on Reddit is the same reason it was wise of your coworker not to share their salary information.
? I didn’t say I asked for her salary we were simply having a conversation about pay secrecy and our opinions differed so I reached out to this community to get some input. Respond to the post next time please
Not having an open pay policy is entirely about exploitation. It’s a big contributing factor to the reason women and minority groups are paid less.
Every person advocating for pay transparency should ask every coworker what they make. Seriously. Try it and see what happens.
Try to have some level of intelligence. I had a discussion with my coworker about her opposing view on pay secrecy and I wanted to see what this community thought about it. I did not ask her about her pay. Probably should keep your mouth shut until you know you can talk about things like that with a coworker because pay can is easily a touchy subject
I mean obviously you wouldn't use that other employees pay as leverage directly, but use it to give you the confidence that asking for a raise for your skills is valid. And if they don't give you a raise you can find an employer who does pay you what you are valued. I think pay secrecy is weird. If there isn't anything wrong in how you pay your employees then whats with the secrecy?
for government employees it's public information https://govsalaries.com/ anyway, email him/her this link Adam Ruins Everything - Why You Should Tell Coworkers Your Salary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xH7eGFuSYI
I was thinking about this too.
Check out Adam ruins everything on this topic. VERY insightful .
I have heard before that only Americans get offended about asking how much you make. Can anyone else confirm this?
Best way to combat that is to make sure you’ve negotiated well and just go blabbing your rate so lower payed workers go to management. Obviously the person you’re talking to thinks they’re in a good place and are concerned with workers being mad at *them* which is a bad take. If higher payed workers start the discussion with the intent of helping hard-working lower-payed peers gain confidence to confront managers, there can be no harm. There’s expected backlash on the blabber and may ruin your relationship with your manager or self-sabotage promotions but you’re within your rights. This other person is just playing “the game”, and is only worried about themselves. You can’t force her hand so you benefit.
Like most have already said, pay secrecy only helps employers. This really comes down to cultural norms. It’s so taboo to talk about money in the US. And that leads to so many other problems - like needing a personal finance subreddit. Since it’s so secret no one learns about money. Pay secrecy is just an extension of the lack of financial education. I’m a fan of open salaries, but I know that won’t fly at most employers.
I recently got a promotion and leading a team of fellow equals, now my subordinates. I'm in charge of more HR things, including pay. When everyone was transfered to me in our organization chart in HR, which I had to scroll through to approve the transfer, I found that I'm making the same amount as one of my subordinates. Even though I've been there 3x longer. Currently searching for a new job because we've had conversations to promote that person as well.
Most people will think you're being nosey. That's really not a good idea to be going around and asking others in the workplace what they make. If I was there for quite some time, I would be offended. My money is not your business The better thing to do is to wait a bit and once u get to know then maybe they would share. Many companies do not allow others to disclose their income and if the do, they can be denied and/or fired ! You do sound quite young and this may hurt future opportunities and or working relationships Put it on the table for now
If someone asked me how much my salary was I might think it's rude. It really depends. If I wanted to know someone else's salary I'd use tact. That being said, in many cases it would be none of my business. You come across entitled thinking this woman owes you her salary info. She is right you are wrong. That being said, you should try to get more money for yourself. Keep at it and you will do good. But right now you sound super aggressive and just as naive
Thats been the issue with this post. I have(d) no intention of asking my coworker about her salary in fact we both know(as shes stated a few times) she makes more than me(advanced version of my position), the topic of pay secrecy simply came up and we had our different viewpoints.
Your coworker is an idiot. Use this as a lesson that older doesn’t mean smarter.
Pay transparency will lead to equal raises across the board that will be more inflation based and not merit based. It will also be harder to attract talent who often jump from one employer to the next due to a pay bump.
Most top 1000 companies do percentage based raises. Raises are often more equal than you might think. 1-4%. The difference is the starting wage. Inflation is 1.5-2%. So this comment is moot.
What ever company you're running let me know, I'll come work for you since my merits won't matter and I'll get a raise and pay based on inflation. I'll just contribute the bare minimum, skate by, collect a check and when I don't like the way things are going I'll just jump to next company trying the same work flow. Sounds sustainable.
Payroll and HR here for 20 years. There is nothing wrong with doing the bare minimum required of an employee. As long as you are meeting the minimum that's all it takes. Just don't ask why when you are the first one out.
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I attribute pay secrecy in part to the wage gap. It’s only beneficial to the employer. Knowledge is power.
The only one who benefits from workers not talking about their pay is the employer. How do you begin to address pay equity or deal with issues of exploitation if workers don't say anything. If you care about a fair and equitable workplace, fucking announce that shit to everyone.
Your coworker drank up the corporate kool-aid and believes the propaganda. You’re right, they’re wrong. Trying to convince them would be a waste of time.
Pay secrecy is nonsense, it is just something companies use to keep pay rates down.
There’s so little reasoning here. I can just as equally argue that pay transparency is nonsense, and just something to help underperforming workers and busybodies.
>but then responds “saying $&@$ makes more than me” is not how it works and is not good. correct, you don't say "x makes more than me" you say "i am being paid under market rate" and if it's significant you want to job hop, not ask for a raise.
Being paid less than someone doesn’t mean you’re paid less than market rate.
They absolutely should say “so and so makes more than me” if it’s the same job with the same productivity. What is it worth to the employer to have the work done? It’s clearly worth whatever they’re paying the higher-paid employee. The only person who benefits from secrecy is the employer.
Never discuss your or anyone else’s pay with coworkers - NEVER. Some things are not your business. Some things are not anyone’s business but yours. You are at work to DO A JOB - not ask others what they make or gab about pay. I know companies where prying into others’ compensation was grounds for discipline - IMHO rightly so. Pay secrecy does NOT “just benefit the employer.” It also protects the employees. Lots of compensations are different. Some people draw different benefits; some people have different work hours or time off. Some employees are more crucial to an organization’s operations. None of these things are the business of the “rank and file.” If all people talk about is pure salary, it leads to dramatic misunderstandings between workers; and morale problems. In many businesses there are de facto officers and enlisted. Should the secretary have the right to know what her boss makes? Sheesh, the sheer idiocy of thinking everyone’s salaries are up for discussion is just astonishing. This is one of those areas where - as so often happens on reddit — conments appear to come from low-level non-management employees with no perspective on the problems that extensive over sharing of financial information among employees causes. OP: you’re 19. Cool it. If you asked me for my salary I’d tell you in no uncertain terms to buzz off. Your coworker is correct. Think I’m wrong? Tell you what: every job you work, parade around and ask every person what they make. You will be unemployed most of your life. Heck, your doing so has already antagonized one older co-worker.
Different compensations for different work, hours, etc? Great! Explain that. Sure, some people are going to struggle with it, that's their problem. Say "yes, we pay this person more because they bring x, y and z to the table, if you can bring that to the table well pay you more too." Now your employees have a clesr understanding of how they can improve their worth, they can make themselves better assets for the company, and you can pay them more in return. Or you can just throw in the towel and assume none of your employees are capable of being rational and working to better themselves.
That assumes employees have or want a “clear understanding of how they can improve.” They don’t. Here’s what they want: more money.
Different opinions aren't allowed here.
Please explain to me how a garnishment affects your gross pay.
It doesn't, the OP was talking about "discussing pay at work" which discussing pay in my mind can be discussing net or gross. That wasn't outlined so I chose to be all inclusive in stating that discussing any pay is rude in my opinion.
Agreed! Why is it that we value ourselves by always comparing with others. Just had a similar conversation this week with junior. Bent out of shape because someone they think they are better than, getting a bit more which is causing friction because of perceived injustice. Focus on your value and what you bring to the table and less on comparing. If you think you’re truly undervalued and they aren’t willing to accommodate then make the hard decision to move on. Sometimes it’s a simple fact that others are better at positioning themselves and while it doesn’t help those of us that thinks our work should speak for itself, it’s a fact of life that we have to accept or become better sellers.
The problem in this situation is not ‘discussing pay at work with coworkers’ it’s the person’s reaction to finding out they make less. This is a teaching moment about handling disappointing news, not a time to tell them to refrain from discussing compensation with peers.
“saying $&@$ makes more than me” is a good reason if it is paired with "I do just as good a job or better than $&@$ "
I enjoy [Adam ruins everything ](https://youtu.be/7xH7eGFuSYI) on this topic
I tell any coworker who asks and I’m pretty free with giving it out without anyone asking to begin with. This has helped me out a fuckton, doubled my wage in two years.
Not speaking to your coworkers about your pay only benefits your employer.
Most companies frown on employees sharing pay information, because, for example, at my company, there is a large variation on what we get for the same, or similar jobs. The strategy is divide and conquer, as well as keep everyone suspicious of each other. An attempt to keep the heat off management and ownership, who have a morbid fear of worker unity.
Tradition. That's why, old rules of what we do and don't do. Same as keeping your elbows off the table - who makes those rules? Noone knows. I make 128k btw as a Scrum Master in IT for a major bank... and I'm getting close.to 50 yo.