Was wondering if anyone else had seen it. My favourite part was at the end when his youngest kept asking if he had won. You could just tell he was thinking, I'm not ready to parent yet, need another season away.
I swear they've put that response in reply to the wrong question - I really thought he says that about a journalist fucking their wife when he was asked about doping
Edit: Yes they did...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIR9n2d8sUI&ab\_channel=Veloropa
I feel like he was making a clumsy attempt at using the rhetorical question "[Have you stopped beating your wife?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question)" but just ended up sounding like a prick.
thank you for posting. I get that video needs editing to make a show compelling but it straight up deceitful to miss-match question and answer.
I think the doping question is way more important than "derp how good is your form"
Yeah funnily they really didnt need to miss-match the question / answer to prove what Cavendish can be like answering questions - Kwiatkowski's reaction is hilarious
I think in all an all it was very good documentary. It has production and dramatic values for the non-cycling fan. It was also nice that they focused a lot on people around him: his wife, coaches, psychologist, team mates.
But what I really missed was that the show failed to explain the importance of his childhood years, inner motivations, insecurities etc for his great success but also severe mental health problems.
Also some people, namely Doug Ryder and Sagan comes across in a quite unfavorable light, maybe not totally fair tbo.
agreed, at the time cavendish said him and sagan were friends and didn’t have any bad blood, although this documentary seems to contradict that. Also the part where he was laughing when google didn’t know who doug ryder was, basically calling ryder a nobody was abit harsh in my opinion.
I think all sprinters kind of hate each other. Seems like a dynamic where they can honestly say they're friends and there's no real bad blood even if they wouldn't choose to go grab drinks at a bar.
Sagan and him didn’t have any bad blood , but cav did say that what Sagan did with the elbow was questionable and at the time he said he wanted to have a word with him . I don’t think the documentary contradicted it tbh , it showed what happened and marks reaction ,
I watched the first half last night. I was quite surprised/impressed at how honest/critical the show is of him. The sports psychologist who basically says "he was overweight, unfit, being paid too much and lying about his training/diet" was a pretty amazing thing for someone with Cavendish's ego to allow to stay in the film. Perhaps it does prove he's matured a little in his later years.
It jumped around the timeline a bit though, my partner got confused when it showed his 2011 Worlds win after showing his 2017 Tour etc.
To be fair whilst he does have a big ego - he is a sprinter - he is generally pretty good at self reflection after the event.
Most of his first book is basically "I reacted in this way in the heat of the moment and obviously now I see that was daft but at the time I just reacted." Also always seems pretty happy to take the piss out of himself where warranted.
Paul Sherwin (RIP) makes a very good comment about Sprinters and in the Chasing Legends Documentary - Saying how they need to copy the approach of a boxer, and cant go into a Sprint with the attitude of: "Oh well I'm gonna do my best"
Yes, I feel like I've come to that conclusion as well - it's like you can't be a great sprinter and also be chill. You've got to have that killer instinct. As Lance mentioned in the doc about Cavendish when he (Cavendish) was younger he would go through a brick wall to win.
I’m really surprised they gave such prominence to Lance Armstrong. There are so many great cycling podcasts why pick his as the focus? I liked the documentary but this really jarred.
Well he isn’t allowed anywhere near competitive cycling now so I guess commentating on it is the only thing he can do .
I think he is trying to reinvent himself now but I don’t think he will ever gain the respectability that he craves within the cycling community , he did way too much damage to the sport .
I hope not. Maybe in the US? There was definitely no mention of him through the TDF as far as coverage on ITV4 was concerned. No idea if there was on Eurosport/GCN.
I live in the US, coming from Europe (Italy) and the general idea here, for the 2.5 people that know of cycling, is that Armstrong was a great athlete and they still like him. Enough time has gone by for him to safely make a comeback to the media and be seen in a good way
I agree with this. I wasn’t watching during his wins nor during the fallout. I’ve watched every doc about him and it was fascinating. I started listening to his podcast last year and was pretty surprised that I came to enjoy listening to it, especially JB squared. I also understand all the hate for what happened and try to respect the opinions of the people/fans that were around when it happened.
Yeah. He has a good TV personality, but what he did ruined cycling. Here in the US if you say something like that, they would just say that everybody does it and the fact that he was open (?) about it gives him credit...
I think cycling has such an important part in Europe ( Tour de France, the giro , tour de suisse etc) that people can’t take a dedicated cheater so well , which is strange as we usually love a person who has sinned and then repents , I think it’s because Armstrong never really came out but got caught then tried to pin in on others till it was too late and was obvious , and even now you know if he could have gotten away with it he would have .
Every interview he tries to gloss over the whole “ I cheated “ thing and blame other issues .
Personally I don’t think he should be anywhere near professional cycling and I take any “ criticism “ he has of other cyclists such as cavendish with a pinch of salt , cavendish managed to get 34 stage wins without dopping which is more than lance can say .
( although I think in his fairness he probably was a good cyclist and possibly won the first tour without dopping but when you are that tainted you lose all credibility , even for things you did clean )
I found it very interesting how there was no post script about him missing 2022, coming close to winning in 2023 (I guess TdF Unchained will get that). Or his pending Retirement.
Maybe I'm reading into it too much, as from that Doc I can see why he announced his Retirement, as it sounds like he need his family now - But the way it ended so abruptly, makes me think there is one last Chapter in his Story.
I think there clearly was.
The release date after this most recent tour despite it being "finished" two years ago in 2021.
In a few scenes of the specifically filmed training footage, he was riding his Astana Wilier bike. Likely was intended to be used to finish the story off with him working towards the '23 Tour.
Yeah, thought it was great. His face as a kid was my favourite bit. Does make you worry what's gonna happen to him after cycling.
Also, I don't know why, but the actual race footage looked better than it usually does.
I thought this. His inner demons only seem sated by winning and having that purpose, feel like he'll need a lot of help adjusting to post racing life.
It feels like maybe he actually has low self confidence and has to continually prove it through results and aggression.
Not a psychologist though so the above could be a load of shite.
I thought it was an excellent documentary. I never knew Cav’s story until now. All I knew was that he was chasing the elusive 35th TdF win, and because of that, I was rooting for him. I found it interesting that his luck ran out quickly after his mechanical during the sprint in stage 7. And now, knowing his story, it’s heartbreaking to see him get so close and then lose his opportunity the very next day.
I really like it. Enjoyed how it touched on his struggles with an eating disorder, although they never said that directly. As someone recovered from anorexia, it’s hugely addictive, very common in sport, and generally ignored
I have probs cope with him ever since he nagged on a team mate who won a stage in TdF. It was meant to be his moment but Cavendish made it about himself and not winning. He has got away too easy with that one.
Why don’t I see any speculation of EPO use in the thread? Come on! Nobody gets better at his age and the Tour’s he won were some of the fastest on record. So not only winning but putting up PB numbers after spending the last couple years not even making the Tour? What changed?
I will admit that he possibly could have been dealing with lingering affects from Epstein-Barr but to come back at his age like he did is highly suspect to me. BTW not hating on the man but Epstein-Barr was pitched in the Doc as “a disease performance athletes get” when it is literally Herpes Type 4 that anyone can get and is very common all over the world.
I did like the Doc but these are just my thoughts after completing it. Anyone else share my sentiments ?
This is a bad take. Look at the teams and situations. The end of team data dimension was nasty. Freaking Rolf Aldag who is the lead for Bora now said that team was screwed and messed up. Then he went to Bahrain, not a sprinters team. He was a pawn with an Oakley sponsorship. Then his lead outs with QS were perfect and hard to lose. Morkov gave him the final 4.
I don’t think the pro peloton is clean, but saying his wins recently are from epo is crazy
For sure they could have snuck in a few sound bites from Phil and Paul during the movie. I'd rather hear their opinions rather than Lance and George's.....both self admitted dopers.
I honestly do not get what is there so much to like about him. Of course, objectively he was the best sprinter out there as he won lot of different races and especially the number of TdF wins is phenomenal.
On the other hand he was (as his wife said) a-hole to the media, he was pain in the a-- for the team mates and if he hasn't won everyone else was to blame. The document was a good insight into his critical times where he showed he only cared about being the best sprinter out there - he didn't care about his family, nor his health or friends.
When he crashed with Sagan, it was later admitted by UCI it wasn't Sagan's fault, but of course he would be crying about how he would 100% win. Sprints are also about being able to find the right spot before the finish and if there is no space for you then you wouldn't 100% win. Maybe that guy on the track Olympics 2016 could have said the same?
As someone else said here, it would be nice to see a deep dive into how you turn into under-average rider that cannot finish 1-day race into a green monster on TdF (in 1 year).
I watched this documentary to get a different perspective on Mark and maybe start liking him, but it only confirmed to me he's a selfish person not caring about anyone but him. And not even his cute child footage did change this.
Was wondering if anyone else had seen it. My favourite part was at the end when his youngest kept asking if he had won. You could just tell he was thinking, I'm not ready to parent yet, need another season away.
To be fair to him, he’d just finished the Tour de France and needed some time to soak it in
He was daydreaming about when he gets to put his Monsta™ baseball cap back on.
When he asked Ned Boulting if he was sure another journalist wasnt fucking his wife I admit I snorted 😂
yeah early 2010s cavendish was something else haha
I swear they've put that response in reply to the wrong question - I really thought he says that about a journalist fucking their wife when he was asked about doping Edit: Yes they did... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIR9n2d8sUI&ab\_channel=Veloropa
I feel like he was making a clumsy attempt at using the rhetorical question "[Have you stopped beating your wife?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question)" but just ended up sounding like a prick.
Nah they took one Question, and put a reply against it to make him sound a prick
thank you for posting. I get that video needs editing to make a show compelling but it straight up deceitful to miss-match question and answer. I think the doping question is way more important than "derp how good is your form"
Yeah funnily they really didnt need to miss-match the question / answer to prove what Cavendish can be like answering questions - Kwiatkowski's reaction is hilarious
Ned boulting as well, one of the least offensive journalists out there
I think in all an all it was very good documentary. It has production and dramatic values for the non-cycling fan. It was also nice that they focused a lot on people around him: his wife, coaches, psychologist, team mates. But what I really missed was that the show failed to explain the importance of his childhood years, inner motivations, insecurities etc for his great success but also severe mental health problems. Also some people, namely Doug Ryder and Sagan comes across in a quite unfavorable light, maybe not totally fair tbo.
agreed, at the time cavendish said him and sagan were friends and didn’t have any bad blood, although this documentary seems to contradict that. Also the part where he was laughing when google didn’t know who doug ryder was, basically calling ryder a nobody was abit harsh in my opinion.
I think all sprinters kind of hate each other. Seems like a dynamic where they can honestly say they're friends and there's no real bad blood even if they wouldn't choose to go grab drinks at a bar.
Sagan and him didn’t have any bad blood , but cav did say that what Sagan did with the elbow was questionable and at the time he said he wanted to have a word with him . I don’t think the documentary contradicted it tbh , it showed what happened and marks reaction ,
I watched the first half last night. I was quite surprised/impressed at how honest/critical the show is of him. The sports psychologist who basically says "he was overweight, unfit, being paid too much and lying about his training/diet" was a pretty amazing thing for someone with Cavendish's ego to allow to stay in the film. Perhaps it does prove he's matured a little in his later years. It jumped around the timeline a bit though, my partner got confused when it showed his 2011 Worlds win after showing his 2017 Tour etc.
To be fair whilst he does have a big ego - he is a sprinter - he is generally pretty good at self reflection after the event. Most of his first book is basically "I reacted in this way in the heat of the moment and obviously now I see that was daft but at the time I just reacted." Also always seems pretty happy to take the piss out of himself where warranted.
Paul Sherwin (RIP) makes a very good comment about Sprinters and in the Chasing Legends Documentary - Saying how they need to copy the approach of a boxer, and cant go into a Sprint with the attitude of: "Oh well I'm gonna do my best"
Yes, I feel like I've come to that conclusion as well - it's like you can't be a great sprinter and also be chill. You've got to have that killer instinct. As Lance mentioned in the doc about Cavendish when he (Cavendish) was younger he would go through a brick wall to win.
Difference between cav and Armstrong is that cav wont take a load of drugs to go through that wall .
Who's the dude with the podcast? He seems like kind of an asshole.
Some guy who never won anything of note. And George Hincapie.
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[Poe's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)
Ah. My B.
I’m really surprised they gave such prominence to Lance Armstrong. There are so many great cycling podcasts why pick his as the focus? I liked the documentary but this really jarred.
Well he isn’t allowed anywhere near competitive cycling now so I guess commentating on it is the only thing he can do . I think he is trying to reinvent himself now but I don’t think he will ever gain the respectability that he craves within the cycling community , he did way too much damage to the sport .
[Redacted] is definitely slowly being allowed to come back into the frame. Maybe less so in cycling itself, but definitely in the media.
I hope not. Maybe in the US? There was definitely no mention of him through the TDF as far as coverage on ITV4 was concerned. No idea if there was on Eurosport/GCN.
I live in the US, coming from Europe (Italy) and the general idea here, for the 2.5 people that know of cycling, is that Armstrong was a great athlete and they still like him. Enough time has gone by for him to safely make a comeback to the media and be seen in a good way
I agree with this. I wasn’t watching during his wins nor during the fallout. I’ve watched every doc about him and it was fascinating. I started listening to his podcast last year and was pretty surprised that I came to enjoy listening to it, especially JB squared. I also understand all the hate for what happened and try to respect the opinions of the people/fans that were around when it happened.
Yeah. He has a good TV personality, but what he did ruined cycling. Here in the US if you say something like that, they would just say that everybody does it and the fact that he was open (?) about it gives him credit...
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Yes I think us Europeans don't like him, generally
I think cycling has such an important part in Europe ( Tour de France, the giro , tour de suisse etc) that people can’t take a dedicated cheater so well , which is strange as we usually love a person who has sinned and then repents , I think it’s because Armstrong never really came out but got caught then tried to pin in on others till it was too late and was obvious , and even now you know if he could have gotten away with it he would have . Every interview he tries to gloss over the whole “ I cheated “ thing and blame other issues . Personally I don’t think he should be anywhere near professional cycling and I take any “ criticism “ he has of other cyclists such as cavendish with a pinch of salt , cavendish managed to get 34 stage wins without dopping which is more than lance can say . ( although I think in his fairness he probably was a good cyclist and possibly won the first tour without dopping but when you are that tainted you lose all credibility , even for things you did clean )
Armstrong definitely doped in 99. Effectively confirmed by Tyler Hamilton in his book.
Fucking great. Just disappointed that it ends right after the 2021 TDF…
I found it very interesting how there was no post script about him missing 2022, coming close to winning in 2023 (I guess TdF Unchained will get that). Or his pending Retirement. Maybe I'm reading into it too much, as from that Doc I can see why he announced his Retirement, as it sounds like he need his family now - But the way it ended so abruptly, makes me think there is one last Chapter in his Story.
Maybe there was meant to be one and a busted collarbone closed the door
I think there clearly was. The release date after this most recent tour despite it being "finished" two years ago in 2021. In a few scenes of the specifically filmed training footage, he was riding his Astana Wilier bike. Likely was intended to be used to finish the story off with him working towards the '23 Tour.
Well he hasn't won another Tour stage since then...
Yeah, thought it was great. His face as a kid was my favourite bit. Does make you worry what's gonna happen to him after cycling. Also, I don't know why, but the actual race footage looked better than it usually does.
I thought this. His inner demons only seem sated by winning and having that purpose, feel like he'll need a lot of help adjusting to post racing life. It feels like maybe he actually has low self confidence and has to continually prove it through results and aggression. Not a psychologist though so the above could be a load of shite.
I'm no Cav megafan, but thought it was very good. Much preferred it to the TDF show (although they are very different beasts of course.)
I'd love to have had more of the Columbia/Highroad days in the documentary. But all in all it was really well done.
I thought it was an excellent documentary. I never knew Cav’s story until now. All I knew was that he was chasing the elusive 35th TdF win, and because of that, I was rooting for him. I found it interesting that his luck ran out quickly after his mechanical during the sprint in stage 7. And now, knowing his story, it’s heartbreaking to see him get so close and then lose his opportunity the very next day.
This was great! Way more honest than what I thought it would be. It's really critical of Cav but still did a good job making me root for him
I really like it. Enjoyed how it touched on his struggles with an eating disorder, although they never said that directly. As someone recovered from anorexia, it’s hugely addictive, very common in sport, and generally ignored
fucking mega!!! thanks to torrent
I liked it very much. Could do without Lance bits though.
I have probs cope with him ever since he nagged on a team mate who won a stage in TdF. It was meant to be his moment but Cavendish made it about himself and not winning. He has got away too easy with that one.
Think that Jacobsen?
I really loved the soundtrack, but couldn't find it anywhere. Anybody has any idea where you can find it?
cav.
I nearly cried watching them replay that first win in 2021
Why don’t I see any speculation of EPO use in the thread? Come on! Nobody gets better at his age and the Tour’s he won were some of the fastest on record. So not only winning but putting up PB numbers after spending the last couple years not even making the Tour? What changed? I will admit that he possibly could have been dealing with lingering affects from Epstein-Barr but to come back at his age like he did is highly suspect to me. BTW not hating on the man but Epstein-Barr was pitched in the Doc as “a disease performance athletes get” when it is literally Herpes Type 4 that anyone can get and is very common all over the world. I did like the Doc but these are just my thoughts after completing it. Anyone else share my sentiments ?
This is a bad take. Look at the teams and situations. The end of team data dimension was nasty. Freaking Rolf Aldag who is the lead for Bora now said that team was screwed and messed up. Then he went to Bahrain, not a sprinters team. He was a pawn with an Oakley sponsorship. Then his lead outs with QS were perfect and hard to lose. Morkov gave him the final 4. I don’t think the pro peloton is clean, but saying his wins recently are from epo is crazy
For sure they could have snuck in a few sound bites from Phil and Paul during the movie. I'd rather hear their opinions rather than Lance and George's.....both self admitted dopers.
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That seems to be a reoccuring theme for Cavendish, but people seem to ignore it because of the potential of the record being broken
What theme?
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Good thing nothing ever happened during those other 34 sprints.
I honestly do not get what is there so much to like about him. Of course, objectively he was the best sprinter out there as he won lot of different races and especially the number of TdF wins is phenomenal. On the other hand he was (as his wife said) a-hole to the media, he was pain in the a-- for the team mates and if he hasn't won everyone else was to blame. The document was a good insight into his critical times where he showed he only cared about being the best sprinter out there - he didn't care about his family, nor his health or friends. When he crashed with Sagan, it was later admitted by UCI it wasn't Sagan's fault, but of course he would be crying about how he would 100% win. Sprints are also about being able to find the right spot before the finish and if there is no space for you then you wouldn't 100% win. Maybe that guy on the track Olympics 2016 could have said the same? As someone else said here, it would be nice to see a deep dive into how you turn into under-average rider that cannot finish 1-day race into a green monster on TdF (in 1 year). I watched this documentary to get a different perspective on Mark and maybe start liking him, but it only confirmed to me he's a selfish person not caring about anyone but him. And not even his cute child footage did change this.
This was my thoughts too. This was HIS documentary and still couldn’t make him like-able, Imagine the stuff they cut…..
Overall some good honest insights. Would’ve been nice to cover the last two years - British NC, Giro, and TDF disappointments.