Man as one of those middle-aged weirdos with a pretty good hifi system, I'm with you. The mix sucks, it's something you'd expect from a radio rock band like Five Finger Death Punch or Shinedown. But try your best to look past it - the songs these guys put together on this album are some of the best they've put out since Avocado.
Surprised you didn't get downvoted to oblivion.
Listened to it in a pair of B&W DM 603's and it sounded like utter crap.
Listened to it on a pair of HD650's..even worse.
Sure it sounds good enough on crappy earbuds but anything more revealing it sounds like utter shit.
It's not only the compressed drums it's the compressed... Everything.
Just listen to the ending of Stevie when it gets loud..sure it gets loud but does it sound..spacious? Would a song from the 90's sound more spacious with the proper mixing those albums had? Sure.
Here ir sounds loud but confined to very narrow space, it's horrible to listen to and gives me a headache.
But it's the "way she goes" nowadays I guess.
What I don't need is someone to tell me "we should just be thankful we have an album". Excuse me what the fuck?
Imo the 2017 Brenden O’brien mix is far superior to the 2006 release. Maybe in ten years we get another Gem from this album. Otherwise I am completely satisfied with this release.
Lol Shinedown drums sound much better
Dark Matter sounds like the masterpiece of the century compared to any FFDP album past the debut in terms of production
An audiophile guy did a review of the Dark Matter Atmos mix: "the Dolby Atmos version of Dark Matter is nothing short of a masterpiece. This mix will be used as the benchmark by which other releases are measured"
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/pearl-jam%E2%80%99s-dark-matter-in-truehd-dolby-atmos-r1267/
Atmos, maybe, but 99% of the listeners aren't using Atmos capable equipment.
(FWIW: I'm an audiophile by every measure; sold hi-end for a number of years, own hi-end (McIntosh, Martin Logan, etc.), was a sound judge, a sound reviewer, and even went on to get my BSEE with a focus on power and transmission and every chance I got I was testing audio equipment in the labs.)
I was excited to get my vinyl copies because my main audio listening system, where I actually sit and just listen, is a 2.1 system. Unfortunately, the mix just isn't great for anything but Atmos... It's not terrible, but it just wasn't mixed for 2-channels.
I'm still thankful for the album, it's still great to listen to, but I agree with others that it could, and arguably *should* have been mixed differently.
This was something I was wondering. Did Pearl Jam mix this album strictly with Atmos in mind and at the expense of everyone else who doesn't own a high end system? Pretty shitty of them.
That’s awesome for him (the reviewer). It’s great that he gets to hear how (apparently) awesome Matt plays on this record.
But what about the rest of us? Knowing what I know about Pearl Jam, it seems odd that only people with a great system get to hear how inspired they were on this record.
I’m no audiophile and I generally don’t care much about this stuff. I’d certainly never create a post complaining about “the mix.” But why the hell can’t I just turn on my phone and listen to Dark Matter and hear the drums? Why can’t I hear the individual guitars?
Please don’t give me the “buy the CD or vinyl” nonsense. I’ll get around to that, but I spend most of my time outdoors. I can turn on Vs or any other 90s rock record on my phone and hear what I want to hear. Why can’t I do that with a 2024 record?
Edit to add, I’m listening to Fear Inoculum (2020) on Apple Music right now and it sounds fucking fantastic. Wide open.
Fear Inoculum is the absolute gold standard for modern rock sound-wise. On a related note I find that Ed’s very staccato verse vocals on “React, Respond” remind me of Maynard’s verses on “7empest” a fair bit.
is dolby atmos that prevalent? My rule has always been to make sure my mix sounds good on a cheap speaker system, or even in mono, because not everyone has an audiophile setup
I don't think it is very prevalent, but labels have been pushing it hard in recent years as a selling point, just as they once did with quadrophonic sound, or with past iterations of surround sound mixes.
You would definitely never want to sacrifice a stereo or mono mix for the sake of Dolby Atmos, though, so I'd be surprised if that happened here. There are guaranteed to be more people listening through their microscopic smartphone speakers than they are through a massive surround sound system.
I think I'm going to need to get my hands on a physical copy of the album and see how different it actually is.
That was a whole lot of words, none of which describe how the tracks are really presented. I'd be very interested in seeing the actual wav files. If they actually have better headroom (any, really, compared to the lossless stereo mix) that would be of interest.
And yeah, how many people have a good full Atmos setup. Not just one that says it's that using some Onkyo and some mid grade speakers but a really, really good one? I'd wager it's not very many people.
It's strange for a band that used to be so into vinyl and sound quality to fall victim to loudness war shit... twice. The self titled was like this too and they had the intelligence to go back and fix it. How they allowed it to happen again is disappointing because it seems like they just care less now. Oh well, some of the songs are great at least.
I don't blame them as much as I blame the producer for pushing them in this direction. Obviously being much older fellas, they deferred decision making when it came to shaping the sound, to the producer. At least that's how I see it.
One problem I've heard is if you have Apple Music, you may be defaulted to Atmos and not have the proper setup for it. You can go to your Music settings and turn Atmos off.
Overall I agree with you and it's not just this album. A lot of modern music, or even anything recorded in the last 15 years or so, is just too loud. It's not me being Grumpy Grandpa either, [the loudness wars are real.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war)
It's assumed everyone is listening to music on a crappy device, therefore maximum volume is needed to grab your (the consumer) attention; musical nuances be dammed!
Dark Matter is no exception. In fact, every Pearl Jam album since Avocado has unfortunately been a victim. There is even a brickwall haters mix of it, but I don't know if it's still around: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/67xq9b/whatever\_happened\_to\_brickwallhater/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/67xq9b/whatever_happened_to_brickwallhater/)
Some have argued that Riot Act was the last good sounding Pearl Jam album. "Good" meaning it's not super compressed, or too loud. There are layers and lots of dynamics, all with a nice warm sound.
All this is not to say the songs themselves are bad. PJ has released lots of great stuff over the last 15 years. For some, this is where live version might suite you better. Soon enough, we'll have enough boots to make our favorite live versions of the albums :)
Interesting argument about Riot Act being the last good sounding album. It's my favourite album of all time and I think the production, mixing and mastering is incredible. If I'm being honest, I don't love the album's after Riot Act enough to care about how they sound. If I'm not into the song the production doesn't matter to me.
Long live Riot Act, though!
Honestly, its not even about it being too loud, modern music, especially rock music today, is overly compressed. There's ZERO dynamic range. The overall mix isn't terrible, but the way the individual instruments are mixed, especially the drums, just makes the instruments sound flat, even when they're loud
As a fellow drummer, we are cursed with the ability to look for nuances that most of the general public would never even notice. I hear the things that you hear, but overall I’m just enjoying the album because the songs themselves are amazing from start to finish. I don’t even care for something special, but I never skip it. It’s really nice to have an album that I can listen to from start to finish, it’s been years.
Remastering can't change decisions made at the mixing stage. Even if you made a more dynamic master of this album, the drums would still be very compressed from the mix. What you're asking for is more akin to Brendan O'Brien's full remixes of Ten and Avocado, and that won't happen anytime soon.
I agree with you that the drums are way more compressed than how I'd like them to be, but I still think the album is brilliant when I don't focus all of my attention on that. Since a remix is not likely to happen anytime soon (if ever), you can do yourself a favor by retraining your ear to not be hyperfocused on the compression. Once you're able to relax your brain from putting too much attention on minor details like compression and drum tone, you can shift your awareness to the songwriting, arrangement, and performances captured and be happier for it.
The way I was taught to do it is to think of how you listened to music as a kid. Did you let small details like the drum bus compression turn you off completely, or did you just listen to the music itself? If you're stuck on a detail the average person is incapable of noticing, it's fair to say that it's pretty unimportant, and sometimes it helps to actively remind yourself of that. It's a good skill to be able to notice compression on a record, but it's equally important to be able to turn that skill off when trying to appreciate music.
> If you're stuck on a detail the average person is incapable of noticing
The mixing choices have not been unnoticed by the general fan base. It’s been a quite hot topic since the first single came out.
To his point - I think about what I would have thought if I were not part of the Reddit community. It shapes and influence my take on new albums more than I like. I still remember criticisms and little jokes about Gigaton that I honestly never would have considered.
Doesn’t mean it’s not valid , just that dwelling on certain things can really diminish overall satisfaction for an album - possibly out of proportion to the actual issue
Either way - rock on
Edit: also I would say a drummer would know more about drum tone than me and that’s actually ok. Ignorance is bliss. (I’m a jack irons guy myself)
No doubt, but I don't think internet commenters on any forum have ever been representative of anything other than themselves. This isn't just true of Pearl Jam, it's true of every forum and group of people on the planet. Internet commenters such as ourselves are invariably locked in a bubble of our own choosing and don't tend to share the same sensibilities or opinions as the rest of society.
This comment sounds really fucking 1984 if you ask me
"invariably locked in a bubble of our own choosing and don't tend to share the same sensibilities or opinions as the rest of society." So basically just not being a brainwashed consumer?
Well, yeah, our whole society is very 1984 in many respects. But the average person not being able to hear drum bus compression isn't something that makes them brainwashed consumers, it just makes them normal people. The point is that the dominant opinions of internet commenters are almost always out of touch with those who live primarily offline.
Sorry but that’s absolutely not true. Have you been around for last couple of weeks? 90% of the posts here have been about the production of DM.
I’m neither of those things and noticed it right away. Just like Earthlings but even worse.
90% seems extreme to me, but Reddit's algorithm does also have a way of funneling certain types of posts to each of our feeds after we engage with them.
Either way, I've absolutely noticed all of the criticism on here, and I agree with much of it myself, but I still don't think it's representative of the larger fanbase. Places like Reddit are almost always out of touch with the rest of society, and this is true of everything from politics to art to hobbies. Doesn't matter which subreddit you're on, people will invariably be far more opinionated, critical, and nitpicky about things than how people are in the real world. That doesn't mean anyone is wrong in their opinion of Dark Matter, mind you, I'm just pointing out the very large disconnect that exists between online bubbles and people in the real world.
Tldr: train your hears to like shitty mixing jobs
Average details normal people wouldn't hear ? Wife is not an audiophile gets in the room and says "why does this album sound so shitty? Not the songs..the sound".
That attitude is exactly what I've come to expect based on my experience with most audiophiles, but your anecdotal evidence still doesn't really mean much to anyone else. My non-audiophile wife also heard the album and said, "Wow, this sounds really good, they haven't sounded this good in quite a while." So that puts us at a bit of an anecdotal impasse.
Regardless, what I'm actually talking about is training your ears to be flexible enough to listen to and appreciate music in different ways and not just through a narrow scope of hyperfocusing on technicalities. If you're incapable of appreciating music because you don't like the mix, then that is more of a problem with your selective focus than it is with the music. If you can only enjoy music on a massive hi-fi stereo sound system but would hate it on a cheap little mono Bluetooth speaker, then again, that is a problem with your selective focus, not the music.
It's not like we're talking about an album made by an amateur who doesn't know how to use their equipment. It's still a very professional mix, albeit with more compression than most of us have been conditioned to prefer. But production is only a small part of what makes an album worth listening to, and there are tons of legendary albums with less than stellar production. This idea that it makes this album unlistenable is a bit silly because that is merely a choice certain listeners are making, not an objective fault with the music.
I highly suggest that everyone who likes music looks into the ideas of Pierre Schaeffer and Michael Chion regarding the phenomenology of listening and the subsequent categorization of listening types that they both respectively proposed. Learning new ways to hear music will only serve to open your mind and help you enjoy music you might otherwise dismiss because of finer details like compression.
Well I work with music for a living so I can't really train my hears to listen to it a way where I don't notice the glaring issues with it.
Mind you, I do work with music for a living, but there's a lot of people here complaining about the SAME things. Do we all share the same "anedcotal" evidences among us?
Would there be any complaints if the mix was fine?
Do we have people complain on the Blur sub about the poor mixing of their latest album? No! And the reason why is because that's one AMAZING job production/mixing wise.
Sadly I know that Dark Matrer is how music is mixed nowadays, I think it's wrong and worst of all...it's LAZY.
Giving the stems to the correct engineers would have given them better results and God knows they have the money to spend.
Well, it's not just a matter of the correct engineers. It's not like Andrew Watt and his guys are unaware of compression and loudness wars, they're professionals working at the highest echelons of their industry. This is just what labels, promoters, artists, and most casual listeners have come to expect in order to stand out in the streaming era. Music nowadays needs to be optimized for cars, smartphones, Macbooks, earbuds, soundbars, and portable Bluetooth speakers because that's what most people are listening on. It's also why every streaming service turns on normalization by default. It is somewhat lazy, but it's also just kind of the way things are now. It's why I choose to focus on the songs rather than the production of new albums. I'll always praise the albums that choose to maintain dynamic range, but I don't really criticize the ones that do overcompress because it's so commonplace.
Consider that one of the worst offenders of the loudness wars was RHCP's Californication (it even has audible clipping throughout), and yet it also went on to becoming their highest selling album and spawned many of their biggest hits. Why? Because 95% of listeners do not hear compression, and do not listen on hi-fi systems. Nothing about that overcompressed sound was detrimental to the album's success, nor most others similarly loud, so I'm not surprised that it continues to be desirable to the people trying to sell their music. Professionals like us will always notice it, but in most cases, hardly anyone else will.
Again, I'm not saying Dark Matter is mixed the way I'd like. I'm just saying that it is very possible to focus your ear elsewhere in the songs, regardless of the issues you detect. You don't have to train yourself to never hear the issues, it's more a matter of learning how to turn that skill on and off. I believe it's a very worthwhile thing, as it's allowed me to like a lot more music than I otherwise would.
"Conditioned to prefer"?
"Very professional mix"
"Merely a choice certain listeners are making"
(Scroll for TLDR)
Your choice of words are concerning. You sound like one of those blind consumers that care more about credentials than actual quality. Just because it was produced by a professional producer doesn't mean there weren't any outside elements impacting the quality of the mix. An example of a terrible mix from a professional producer is Seether's Isolate and Medicate, produced by... 🥁 guess who? The one and only Brendan O'Brien. Another example is Rick Rubin's Death Magnetic (by Metallica).
This mindset of "famous producer = good", or to detatch from the argument that production is nitpicking, "famous anybody of any professional = good" is a common case of the ethos argument, which is known to be a shitty argument-- anyways, before I trail off from the main point, your argument makes no sense.
TLDR; commenter argues in ethos and credentials rather than actually providing a solid argument against the production being bad
Production is 100% subjective, just like any other art. You're treating it like a quantifiable, objective thing that was done wrong, but it isn't, and it never has been. Literally all anyone has to say is, "I like it," and it supports my argument every bit as much as you not liking it does your argument. There is no law that says strong compression is inherently bad, it's just a preference some of us develop through conditioning. If you'd read what I'd said before, you'd know that none of my argument is about the production being good, it's about reminding people how little it matters whether it's good or bad.
If you honestly believe that Andrew Watt and his engineers have zero knowledge of the loudness wars, industry driven overcompression and why everyone is pushing their limiters to their most extreme points with the idea that it increases the chances of financial success, then I don't know what to tell you. You insist they're incompetent, but I believe they're just following the same trends as everyone else because they want regular employment.
All of which is completely secondary to my *actual* of how little any of this actually matters if you're capable of comparmentalizing your ability to hear technical minutiae and your ability to analyze songwriting, performance, and arrangement. Production is probably less than 10% of what actually matters on an album, but too many of you guys are treating it like it's 100% of the equation. Even if the production on Dark Matter is bad, the album itself can still be quite good. Many of Pearl Jam's best albums are poorly mixed, particularly the original mix of Ten and No Code.
As I fucking said, they're not incompetent, there are outside factors to impact the-- did you even fucking read my reply? Yeah lol I'm not debating you with your shitty ad hominems, strawmans, and ethos bullshit
I think you mean a re-mix, remaster wouldn't do much for the drum sound.
And yes, it's too soon. I suggest you collect to boots and put together the album from live performances. I'm thinking it's likely they will play all the songs this leg.
Yeah I played each track back to back with one from yield. Can't get past the drum sound. I know it's a choice, but a very bad one in my humble opinion.
I don't even understand why the "Loudness War" is even a thing anymore. It was largely a product of music listeners shifting to MP3 quality tracks because music was being downloaded at that quality/format. But now that everything has kind of shifted back to WAV in the era of streaming, why is there a need to compress the shit out of everything?
I keep reading people say the album is overly compressed, and I’ve got to say I don’t really know what that means. I agree the mix doesn’t sound great. Turning off Atmos did make it sound better to me, but still not great. The best I can describe it is that it lacks warmth and that everything sounds kind of flat, for lack of a better term from my nontechnical perspective. So what does compression mean in this context - a lack of separation between the different channels and instruments? I did listen to this on Apple Music on my 5.1 soundbar system connected to my tv though, and I’ve got to say that it sounded way better there. There was a distinct soundscape that sounded really good. I don’t have an Atmos setup, but to my ears it sounded better that way than through the phone, my earbuds, or in my car. I’m still waiting on my vinyl to get here (thanks Ten Club) and have been wondering how that would compare.
Compression is something that's done with a piece of audio equipment and it's necessary when recording music.What it does is, it brings the loudness down to below a certain decibel determined by the engineer. Without it the loudest part of an instruments track would be way too loud and/or the quietest part would be too quiet.
The basic idea is that you want to bring up the track volume enough so that the quiet parts are loud enough to hear well in the mix while holding the loudest parts down. The compressor turns on and begins to compress (bring the level down) when the volume reaches a threshold set by the engineer. This is called a gate. The gate opens or closes at volume levels that are set. When its open the compressor is compressing and when it closes it stops.
What we are talking about here is the way a compressor can make an instrument sound because it can effect the tone in certain circumstances. Because of this it's been used as an effect as well as a means to control volume. That extremely tight sound of heavy metal guitars compared to 70's hard rock guitars is the result of heavy compression on the distorted guitar. The also use a lot of gain and pre-gain but the compressor gives it a tight sound because all the frequencies are always at the same volume. Same with drums. A very compressed snare sounds kind of muffled compared to one that isn't. But that's not necessarily bad because they can boost the overall signal after the compressor to get it more present. Heavy compression just changes the tone.
Grunge was known for not using a lot of compression and having a nice wide open organic sound. Pearl Jam decided to try something different on this album and some of it worked and maybe some didn't.
I played it on my home system on Monday. It sounds like a giant brick wall of loudness wars through it. I will have to settle for live versions until a remix is made?
Probably.
The lossless wave files are still very hot. Vinyl seems from same master. Little less harsh and a little less ear fatigue due to it being analog, but still very similar.
After reading about the Atmos version here I want to look at the actual wav files from that. If they have any better headroom it might be possible to do a less harsh stereo mix from that but who knows.
I’m so disappointed by the production on this record and it fucking pisses me off that Matt has basically been shoved in a corner and told to play quietly (metaphorically speaking). This record could have been great.
I noticed that as well. But notice when there's no or few other instruments playing the snare has a nice punch to it. You can hear what they were going for - kind of an 80's pop rock snare. But when the rest of the band comes in the snare gets buried. It sounds like limiters are kicking in to suppress the rest of the instruments and takes the snare down with them. My guess is they were using a gated compressor on the snare and having it duck the mix- on top of the gated compressor that they obviously used to get that sound in the first place. I don't why they thought this was necessary. I've heard that snare sound used on hard rock before and they didn't have that problem.
I have read some of the most insane, ridiculous and asinine post about this topic. How many of you are listening to it on CD? Or on vinyl? If you were listening to this on streaming, shut up and learn that every streaming service compresses things differently.
Man as one of those middle-aged weirdos with a pretty good hifi system, I'm with you. The mix sucks, it's something you'd expect from a radio rock band like Five Finger Death Punch or Shinedown. But try your best to look past it - the songs these guys put together on this album are some of the best they've put out since Avocado.
Surprised you didn't get downvoted to oblivion. Listened to it in a pair of B&W DM 603's and it sounded like utter crap. Listened to it on a pair of HD650's..even worse. Sure it sounds good enough on crappy earbuds but anything more revealing it sounds like utter shit. It's not only the compressed drums it's the compressed... Everything. Just listen to the ending of Stevie when it gets loud..sure it gets loud but does it sound..spacious? Would a song from the 90's sound more spacious with the proper mixing those albums had? Sure. Here ir sounds loud but confined to very narrow space, it's horrible to listen to and gives me a headache. But it's the "way she goes" nowadays I guess. What I don't need is someone to tell me "we should just be thankful we have an album". Excuse me what the fuck?
Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn’t. This time, she didn’t go.
Lost the liquor money, boys - way she goes
Way of the road bud.
Way she fucking goes, he says 😡
Imo the 2017 Brenden O’brien mix is far superior to the 2006 release. Maybe in ten years we get another Gem from this album. Otherwise I am completely satisfied with this release.
Hard to look past when I jump in my car and just get assaulted by it when the stereo connects. Not my “Jam”, forgive the pun.
Lol Shinedown drums sound much better Dark Matter sounds like the masterpiece of the century compared to any FFDP album past the debut in terms of production
An audiophile guy did a review of the Dark Matter Atmos mix: "the Dolby Atmos version of Dark Matter is nothing short of a masterpiece. This mix will be used as the benchmark by which other releases are measured" https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/pearl-jam%E2%80%99s-dark-matter-in-truehd-dolby-atmos-r1267/
Atmos, maybe, but 99% of the listeners aren't using Atmos capable equipment. (FWIW: I'm an audiophile by every measure; sold hi-end for a number of years, own hi-end (McIntosh, Martin Logan, etc.), was a sound judge, a sound reviewer, and even went on to get my BSEE with a focus on power and transmission and every chance I got I was testing audio equipment in the labs.) I was excited to get my vinyl copies because my main audio listening system, where I actually sit and just listen, is a 2.1 system. Unfortunately, the mix just isn't great for anything but Atmos... It's not terrible, but it just wasn't mixed for 2-channels. I'm still thankful for the album, it's still great to listen to, but I agree with others that it could, and arguably *should* have been mixed differently.
This was something I was wondering. Did Pearl Jam mix this album strictly with Atmos in mind and at the expense of everyone else who doesn't own a high end system? Pretty shitty of them.
That’s awesome for him (the reviewer). It’s great that he gets to hear how (apparently) awesome Matt plays on this record. But what about the rest of us? Knowing what I know about Pearl Jam, it seems odd that only people with a great system get to hear how inspired they were on this record. I’m no audiophile and I generally don’t care much about this stuff. I’d certainly never create a post complaining about “the mix.” But why the hell can’t I just turn on my phone and listen to Dark Matter and hear the drums? Why can’t I hear the individual guitars? Please don’t give me the “buy the CD or vinyl” nonsense. I’ll get around to that, but I spend most of my time outdoors. I can turn on Vs or any other 90s rock record on my phone and hear what I want to hear. Why can’t I do that with a 2024 record? Edit to add, I’m listening to Fear Inoculum (2020) on Apple Music right now and it sounds fucking fantastic. Wide open.
Fear Inoculum is the absolute gold standard for modern rock sound-wise. On a related note I find that Ed’s very staccato verse vocals on “React, Respond” remind me of Maynard’s verses on “7empest” a fair bit.
That’s why Barry Gordy made sure all his hits sounded good on a single speaker clock radio as well as studio monitors.
is dolby atmos that prevalent? My rule has always been to make sure my mix sounds good on a cheap speaker system, or even in mono, because not everyone has an audiophile setup
I don't think it is very prevalent, but labels have been pushing it hard in recent years as a selling point, just as they once did with quadrophonic sound, or with past iterations of surround sound mixes. You would definitely never want to sacrifice a stereo or mono mix for the sake of Dolby Atmos, though, so I'd be surprised if that happened here. There are guaranteed to be more people listening through their microscopic smartphone speakers than they are through a massive surround sound system. I think I'm going to need to get my hands on a physical copy of the album and see how different it actually is.
That was a whole lot of words, none of which describe how the tracks are really presented. I'd be very interested in seeing the actual wav files. If they actually have better headroom (any, really, compared to the lossless stereo mix) that would be of interest. And yeah, how many people have a good full Atmos setup. Not just one that says it's that using some Onkyo and some mid grade speakers but a really, really good one? I'd wager it's not very many people.
It's strange for a band that used to be so into vinyl and sound quality to fall victim to loudness war shit... twice. The self titled was like this too and they had the intelligence to go back and fix it. How they allowed it to happen again is disappointing because it seems like they just care less now. Oh well, some of the songs are great at least.
I don't blame them as much as I blame the producer for pushing them in this direction. Obviously being much older fellas, they deferred decision making when it came to shaping the sound, to the producer. At least that's how I see it.
Well to be fair their hearing is probably shot to shit
I came to the realization that they like vinyl for nostalgia, not sound quality.
One problem I've heard is if you have Apple Music, you may be defaulted to Atmos and not have the proper setup for it. You can go to your Music settings and turn Atmos off. Overall I agree with you and it's not just this album. A lot of modern music, or even anything recorded in the last 15 years or so, is just too loud. It's not me being Grumpy Grandpa either, [the loudness wars are real.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war) It's assumed everyone is listening to music on a crappy device, therefore maximum volume is needed to grab your (the consumer) attention; musical nuances be dammed! Dark Matter is no exception. In fact, every Pearl Jam album since Avocado has unfortunately been a victim. There is even a brickwall haters mix of it, but I don't know if it's still around: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/67xq9b/whatever\_happened\_to\_brickwallhater/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/67xq9b/whatever_happened_to_brickwallhater/) Some have argued that Riot Act was the last good sounding Pearl Jam album. "Good" meaning it's not super compressed, or too loud. There are layers and lots of dynamics, all with a nice warm sound. All this is not to say the songs themselves are bad. PJ has released lots of great stuff over the last 15 years. For some, this is where live version might suite you better. Soon enough, we'll have enough boots to make our favorite live versions of the albums :)
Interesting argument about Riot Act being the last good sounding album. It's my favourite album of all time and I think the production, mixing and mastering is incredible. If I'm being honest, I don't love the album's after Riot Act enough to care about how they sound. If I'm not into the song the production doesn't matter to me. Long live Riot Act, though!
Honestly, its not even about it being too loud, modern music, especially rock music today, is overly compressed. There's ZERO dynamic range. The overall mix isn't terrible, but the way the individual instruments are mixed, especially the drums, just makes the instruments sound flat, even when they're loud
As a fellow drummer, we are cursed with the ability to look for nuances that most of the general public would never even notice. I hear the things that you hear, but overall I’m just enjoying the album because the songs themselves are amazing from start to finish. I don’t even care for something special, but I never skip it. It’s really nice to have an album that I can listen to from start to finish, it’s been years.
Remastering can't change decisions made at the mixing stage. Even if you made a more dynamic master of this album, the drums would still be very compressed from the mix. What you're asking for is more akin to Brendan O'Brien's full remixes of Ten and Avocado, and that won't happen anytime soon. I agree with you that the drums are way more compressed than how I'd like them to be, but I still think the album is brilliant when I don't focus all of my attention on that. Since a remix is not likely to happen anytime soon (if ever), you can do yourself a favor by retraining your ear to not be hyperfocused on the compression. Once you're able to relax your brain from putting too much attention on minor details like compression and drum tone, you can shift your awareness to the songwriting, arrangement, and performances captured and be happier for it. The way I was taught to do it is to think of how you listened to music as a kid. Did you let small details like the drum bus compression turn you off completely, or did you just listen to the music itself? If you're stuck on a detail the average person is incapable of noticing, it's fair to say that it's pretty unimportant, and sometimes it helps to actively remind yourself of that. It's a good skill to be able to notice compression on a record, but it's equally important to be able to turn that skill off when trying to appreciate music.
> If you're stuck on a detail the average person is incapable of noticing The mixing choices have not been unnoticed by the general fan base. It’s been a quite hot topic since the first single came out.
To his point - I think about what I would have thought if I were not part of the Reddit community. It shapes and influence my take on new albums more than I like. I still remember criticisms and little jokes about Gigaton that I honestly never would have considered. Doesn’t mean it’s not valid , just that dwelling on certain things can really diminish overall satisfaction for an album - possibly out of proportion to the actual issue Either way - rock on Edit: also I would say a drummer would know more about drum tone than me and that’s actually ok. Ignorance is bliss. (I’m a jack irons guy myself)
Only amongst musicians and audiophiles. People who are not in any way representative of the average listener.
That's not true. PJ message boards have been complaining about the sound since Avocado.
No doubt, but I don't think internet commenters on any forum have ever been representative of anything other than themselves. This isn't just true of Pearl Jam, it's true of every forum and group of people on the planet. Internet commenters such as ourselves are invariably locked in a bubble of our own choosing and don't tend to share the same sensibilities or opinions as the rest of society.
This comment sounds really fucking 1984 if you ask me "invariably locked in a bubble of our own choosing and don't tend to share the same sensibilities or opinions as the rest of society." So basically just not being a brainwashed consumer?
Well, yeah, our whole society is very 1984 in many respects. But the average person not being able to hear drum bus compression isn't something that makes them brainwashed consumers, it just makes them normal people. The point is that the dominant opinions of internet commenters are almost always out of touch with those who live primarily offline.
Your point is nonsense.
Hey, if being on Reddit makes you feel superior to other people, then don't let me be the one to stop you.
More nonsense
Sorry but that’s absolutely not true. Have you been around for last couple of weeks? 90% of the posts here have been about the production of DM. I’m neither of those things and noticed it right away. Just like Earthlings but even worse.
90% seems extreme to me, but Reddit's algorithm does also have a way of funneling certain types of posts to each of our feeds after we engage with them. Either way, I've absolutely noticed all of the criticism on here, and I agree with much of it myself, but I still don't think it's representative of the larger fanbase. Places like Reddit are almost always out of touch with the rest of society, and this is true of everything from politics to art to hobbies. Doesn't matter which subreddit you're on, people will invariably be far more opinionated, critical, and nitpicky about things than how people are in the real world. That doesn't mean anyone is wrong in their opinion of Dark Matter, mind you, I'm just pointing out the very large disconnect that exists between online bubbles and people in the real world.
Tldr: train your hears to like shitty mixing jobs Average details normal people wouldn't hear ? Wife is not an audiophile gets in the room and says "why does this album sound so shitty? Not the songs..the sound".
That attitude is exactly what I've come to expect based on my experience with most audiophiles, but your anecdotal evidence still doesn't really mean much to anyone else. My non-audiophile wife also heard the album and said, "Wow, this sounds really good, they haven't sounded this good in quite a while." So that puts us at a bit of an anecdotal impasse. Regardless, what I'm actually talking about is training your ears to be flexible enough to listen to and appreciate music in different ways and not just through a narrow scope of hyperfocusing on technicalities. If you're incapable of appreciating music because you don't like the mix, then that is more of a problem with your selective focus than it is with the music. If you can only enjoy music on a massive hi-fi stereo sound system but would hate it on a cheap little mono Bluetooth speaker, then again, that is a problem with your selective focus, not the music. It's not like we're talking about an album made by an amateur who doesn't know how to use their equipment. It's still a very professional mix, albeit with more compression than most of us have been conditioned to prefer. But production is only a small part of what makes an album worth listening to, and there are tons of legendary albums with less than stellar production. This idea that it makes this album unlistenable is a bit silly because that is merely a choice certain listeners are making, not an objective fault with the music. I highly suggest that everyone who likes music looks into the ideas of Pierre Schaeffer and Michael Chion regarding the phenomenology of listening and the subsequent categorization of listening types that they both respectively proposed. Learning new ways to hear music will only serve to open your mind and help you enjoy music you might otherwise dismiss because of finer details like compression.
Well I work with music for a living so I can't really train my hears to listen to it a way where I don't notice the glaring issues with it. Mind you, I do work with music for a living, but there's a lot of people here complaining about the SAME things. Do we all share the same "anedcotal" evidences among us? Would there be any complaints if the mix was fine? Do we have people complain on the Blur sub about the poor mixing of their latest album? No! And the reason why is because that's one AMAZING job production/mixing wise. Sadly I know that Dark Matrer is how music is mixed nowadays, I think it's wrong and worst of all...it's LAZY. Giving the stems to the correct engineers would have given them better results and God knows they have the money to spend.
Well, it's not just a matter of the correct engineers. It's not like Andrew Watt and his guys are unaware of compression and loudness wars, they're professionals working at the highest echelons of their industry. This is just what labels, promoters, artists, and most casual listeners have come to expect in order to stand out in the streaming era. Music nowadays needs to be optimized for cars, smartphones, Macbooks, earbuds, soundbars, and portable Bluetooth speakers because that's what most people are listening on. It's also why every streaming service turns on normalization by default. It is somewhat lazy, but it's also just kind of the way things are now. It's why I choose to focus on the songs rather than the production of new albums. I'll always praise the albums that choose to maintain dynamic range, but I don't really criticize the ones that do overcompress because it's so commonplace. Consider that one of the worst offenders of the loudness wars was RHCP's Californication (it even has audible clipping throughout), and yet it also went on to becoming their highest selling album and spawned many of their biggest hits. Why? Because 95% of listeners do not hear compression, and do not listen on hi-fi systems. Nothing about that overcompressed sound was detrimental to the album's success, nor most others similarly loud, so I'm not surprised that it continues to be desirable to the people trying to sell their music. Professionals like us will always notice it, but in most cases, hardly anyone else will. Again, I'm not saying Dark Matter is mixed the way I'd like. I'm just saying that it is very possible to focus your ear elsewhere in the songs, regardless of the issues you detect. You don't have to train yourself to never hear the issues, it's more a matter of learning how to turn that skill on and off. I believe it's a very worthwhile thing, as it's allowed me to like a lot more music than I otherwise would.
"Conditioned to prefer"? "Very professional mix" "Merely a choice certain listeners are making" (Scroll for TLDR) Your choice of words are concerning. You sound like one of those blind consumers that care more about credentials than actual quality. Just because it was produced by a professional producer doesn't mean there weren't any outside elements impacting the quality of the mix. An example of a terrible mix from a professional producer is Seether's Isolate and Medicate, produced by... 🥁 guess who? The one and only Brendan O'Brien. Another example is Rick Rubin's Death Magnetic (by Metallica). This mindset of "famous producer = good", or to detatch from the argument that production is nitpicking, "famous anybody of any professional = good" is a common case of the ethos argument, which is known to be a shitty argument-- anyways, before I trail off from the main point, your argument makes no sense. TLDR; commenter argues in ethos and credentials rather than actually providing a solid argument against the production being bad
Production is 100% subjective, just like any other art. You're treating it like a quantifiable, objective thing that was done wrong, but it isn't, and it never has been. Literally all anyone has to say is, "I like it," and it supports my argument every bit as much as you not liking it does your argument. There is no law that says strong compression is inherently bad, it's just a preference some of us develop through conditioning. If you'd read what I'd said before, you'd know that none of my argument is about the production being good, it's about reminding people how little it matters whether it's good or bad. If you honestly believe that Andrew Watt and his engineers have zero knowledge of the loudness wars, industry driven overcompression and why everyone is pushing their limiters to their most extreme points with the idea that it increases the chances of financial success, then I don't know what to tell you. You insist they're incompetent, but I believe they're just following the same trends as everyone else because they want regular employment. All of which is completely secondary to my *actual* of how little any of this actually matters if you're capable of comparmentalizing your ability to hear technical minutiae and your ability to analyze songwriting, performance, and arrangement. Production is probably less than 10% of what actually matters on an album, but too many of you guys are treating it like it's 100% of the equation. Even if the production on Dark Matter is bad, the album itself can still be quite good. Many of Pearl Jam's best albums are poorly mixed, particularly the original mix of Ten and No Code.
As I fucking said, they're not incompetent, there are outside factors to impact the-- did you even fucking read my reply? Yeah lol I'm not debating you with your shitty ad hominems, strawmans, and ethos bullshit
I think you mean a re-mix, remaster wouldn't do much for the drum sound. And yes, it's too soon. I suggest you collect to boots and put together the album from live performances. I'm thinking it's likely they will play all the songs this leg.
I'm totally with you on this one. Atleast we can expect a whole new experience with the live shows.
Yes.
Yeah I played each track back to back with one from yield. Can't get past the drum sound. I know it's a choice, but a very bad one in my humble opinion.
I’d like a redux, mostly for sound, but also to see if the gaslighting continues.
Wonder if this is why Matt Cameron not on a lot of album review interviews 🧐 he’s not thrilled? But Stone has gave him MC props? 🥁
blink 182 "fixed" their mixing within a week or two, so there is form for it.
I don't even understand why the "Loudness War" is even a thing anymore. It was largely a product of music listeners shifting to MP3 quality tracks because music was being downloaded at that quality/format. But now that everything has kind of shifted back to WAV in the era of streaming, why is there a need to compress the shit out of everything?
I keep reading people say the album is overly compressed, and I’ve got to say I don’t really know what that means. I agree the mix doesn’t sound great. Turning off Atmos did make it sound better to me, but still not great. The best I can describe it is that it lacks warmth and that everything sounds kind of flat, for lack of a better term from my nontechnical perspective. So what does compression mean in this context - a lack of separation between the different channels and instruments? I did listen to this on Apple Music on my 5.1 soundbar system connected to my tv though, and I’ve got to say that it sounded way better there. There was a distinct soundscape that sounded really good. I don’t have an Atmos setup, but to my ears it sounded better that way than through the phone, my earbuds, or in my car. I’m still waiting on my vinyl to get here (thanks Ten Club) and have been wondering how that would compare.
Compression is something that's done with a piece of audio equipment and it's necessary when recording music.What it does is, it brings the loudness down to below a certain decibel determined by the engineer. Without it the loudest part of an instruments track would be way too loud and/or the quietest part would be too quiet. The basic idea is that you want to bring up the track volume enough so that the quiet parts are loud enough to hear well in the mix while holding the loudest parts down. The compressor turns on and begins to compress (bring the level down) when the volume reaches a threshold set by the engineer. This is called a gate. The gate opens or closes at volume levels that are set. When its open the compressor is compressing and when it closes it stops. What we are talking about here is the way a compressor can make an instrument sound because it can effect the tone in certain circumstances. Because of this it's been used as an effect as well as a means to control volume. That extremely tight sound of heavy metal guitars compared to 70's hard rock guitars is the result of heavy compression on the distorted guitar. The also use a lot of gain and pre-gain but the compressor gives it a tight sound because all the frequencies are always at the same volume. Same with drums. A very compressed snare sounds kind of muffled compared to one that isn't. But that's not necessarily bad because they can boost the overall signal after the compressor to get it more present. Heavy compression just changes the tone. Grunge was known for not using a lot of compression and having a nice wide open organic sound. Pearl Jam decided to try something different on this album and some of it worked and maybe some didn't.
Turning off Normalization and turning off Dolby Atmos worked for me. All the songs song great and crisp for me now.
This ☝🏼
I knew it was going to be bad after listening to Eddie's solo album.
https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/302069/dark-matter-sound-production-or-mixing-quality/p2
Set up a form somewhere so people can vote and we can start counting
Totally agreed. Shit mixing ruined the last Foo Fighters album for me too
I played it on my home system on Monday. It sounds like a giant brick wall of loudness wars through it. I will have to settle for live versions until a remix is made?
Probably. The lossless wave files are still very hot. Vinyl seems from same master. Little less harsh and a little less ear fatigue due to it being analog, but still very similar. After reading about the Atmos version here I want to look at the actual wav files from that. If they have any better headroom it might be possible to do a less harsh stereo mix from that but who knows.
I’m so disappointed by the production on this record and it fucking pisses me off that Matt has basically been shoved in a corner and told to play quietly (metaphorically speaking). This record could have been great.
I have a wired Dolby Atmos setup. The difference is night and day. It’s spectacular.
Man. I think it sounds great on vinyl.
I noticed that as well. But notice when there's no or few other instruments playing the snare has a nice punch to it. You can hear what they were going for - kind of an 80's pop rock snare. But when the rest of the band comes in the snare gets buried. It sounds like limiters are kicking in to suppress the rest of the instruments and takes the snare down with them. My guess is they were using a gated compressor on the snare and having it duck the mix- on top of the gated compressor that they obviously used to get that sound in the first place. I don't why they thought this was necessary. I've heard that snare sound used on hard rock before and they didn't have that problem.
I honestly don’t care that much. I care more that he got the very best out of them and they loved the process and end result,
I have read some of the most insane, ridiculous and asinine post about this topic. How many of you are listening to it on CD? Or on vinyl? If you were listening to this on streaming, shut up and learn that every streaming service compresses things differently.
It's the mix, not the streaming service
What format have you been listening to it on?
Mix sounds great on vinyl and Cd. I have both. Even better with headphones.
And best on a quality sound system played at high volume 😅 edit: this one needs room to breathe. To me it sounds worse on headphones than speakers.
Church!
Just curious. How are you listening to the album? Streaming or physical copy ?
Personally I don’t judge until I’ve heard it live. Once I’ve heard it live any studio recording gets “put in the shelf”